US agents shot at, tension mounts on Mexico border

[Postmanx]

Reuters

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - U.S. Border Patrol agents have come under fire twice along the Rio Grande in Texas in recent days amid rising tension on the frontier with Mexico, although no one was reported wounded, U.S. authorities said on Thursday.

Rodriguez said the shooting was the second along the same stretch of the Rio Grande in the past week, after agents patrolling the area in a launch on Friday came under a volley of gunfire from Mexico.

That incident came on the same day a Border Patrol agent fatally shot a teenage Mexican immigrant as he crossed the border near San Diego on December 30, triggering widespread anger in Mexico and calls for a full investigation.

Speaking to Mexican diplomats late on Wednesday, President Vicente Fox reiterated calls by the Mexican government for clarification of the killing, and pledged to "ensure that total justice is done in the case."

[Poll_Blind]

1. Thank you, MinuteMen*!

* Not to be confused with revolutionary war Minutemen or actual men.


PB

[pocket]

2. for real, or is this a new 'gulf of tonkin' exercise

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Marie26]

8. Of course it's true

The border is a dangerous place, w/lots of drug-runners & human smugglers regularly crossing the Mexican border. What would be the purpose of a "Gulf of Tonkin" exercise?

[pocket]

12. of course it's true? you might be on the wrong board. the purpose? easy.

An excuse to drum up support for their wall, for cracking down on immigrants, and for demonizing Mexicans in general.

[Marie26]

16. Maybe it's just a fact

Right, I'm a Freeper because I disagree with you. Check. I have a family member in the Border Patrol, and he's told me that they're seeing a whole lot more cartel drug smugglers coming though lately. And since a Mexican immigrant was shot recently, there's been a lot more hostility towards the Border Patrol. So it's hardly surprising that this has happened. The border is a chaotic place anyway, w/lots of illegal activity going across both sides. This report is from Reuters, which is an international & fairly unbiased news agency. The reporter spoke directly to the Border Patrol spokesman in Texas, and has included specific information about when & where this incident occured. So, which is more likely - the entire Border Patrol is conspiring to make up a story, or two agents were actually shot at while patrolling a border known for criminal activity? Hmm. It's good to be suspicious sometimes, but you can't just instantly mistrust everything that the news reports. Maybe it's just true - not everything is a conspiracy.

[barb162]

48. There was something on TV last night about the drug running

in Laredo, Nuevo Laredo, areas. The murders, the crime, ohmygod. I guess on the Mexican side, the new police chief was killed 7 hrs after he took office, then the newspaper people reporting on the drug runners were killed, etc. We have to get the border patrol more money and manpower.

[barb162]

49. I now know the program... "Nightline" on ABC

because they are now doing Part 2; the kidnappings in Laredo, more on the drug cartel stuff including showing mass gunfights with AK-47s

[Marie26]

62. Scary, isn't it.

Whew, I'm glad I missed it. It's really worrying me what's going on at the borders right now. The Border Patrol is expected to patrol huge areas of land without having the funds, manpower, or equipment to do the job right. One officer will have to cover 100s of miles of highway by himself. They're literally risking their lives every day. Most immigrants themselves are simply looking for work - it's the smugglers, drug dealers, & criminals that make it such a dangerous place. I know first-hand the dangers these officers face, so it bothers me when people cavelierly say the Border Patrol is "making it up" w/o knowing all the facts. It actually reminds me a little of the situation in Iraq - people are forced to deal w/a dangerous situation w/o being given the equipment, support or funding they need.

[barb162]

65. agree 100%

The situation on the border seems to be getting way more violent too. They had some sets of American parents on who were saying my kid is missing (like a 20+ year old daughter) who went shopping or to a party in Nuevo Laredo and never came back. Gone for months. Plus several Mexican national women are getting killed there too. The US side cops are trying to keep the violence from infiltrating the US side but it is creeping in. It's a really bad situation and very dangerous.

[William Bloode]

26. This is not the wrong board to discuss this topic.

It's not the first time this has happened either.


Snip>>>Two Border Patrol agents were airlifted to local hospitals Thursday afternoon. Both had been shot.

Investigators are searching for clues and suspects. Sources tell Eyewitness News 4 that there's a possibility a high powered weapon was used to shoot at the border patrol agents.

The agents were airlifted out of a canyon east of Nogales and taken to a Tucson Hospital. <<<Snip



http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3544684

[pocket]

27. it's the wrong board to dismiss questions out of hand like that

.

[QC]

33. It's also the wrong board for calling people freepers

simply because they disagree with you about something. That kind of rigid dogmatism is more appropriate on the right.

[pocket]

42. point out to me where I called anyone a freeper

The fact is that I did not, any more than you did.

[Marie26]

64. Why haven't you actually responded to me?

Just curious.

[MADem]

14. My first thought, too--gotta CLOSE THAT BORDER NOW!!!

Hey, we can ignore the Constitution, let's ignore posse comitatus as well, while we are at it!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreakinDJ]

4. Boarder full of holes

Corporations want it that way to supply cheap labor

Osama could walk across with an Atom bomb no problem

[Bridget Burke]

20. Oh, no! A shooting at the Boarding House!

(Very old joke.)

[girl gone mad]

6. The drug wars in Mexico are out of control right now.

I, for one, do not want that violence spreading into Texas.

[megatherium]

7. Maybe not actually shoot them, but

I agree with you. People are angry at uncontrolled illegal immigration. I've read that 9% of the Mexican population lives in the US, and 25% of the Mexican workforce works in the US. Whole industries of good unionized labor have been taken over by illegal immigrants -- meat packing being one good example (read "Fast Food Nation"). Large sectors of the economy involve work paid in cash -- a device for evading taxes as well as evading immigration laws. This is hammering local governments, who have less revenue and greater social service needs as a result. Rich people and corporations (think Walmart) like the present arrangement. But it isn't good for working-class Americans.

If the Democratic Party becomes known as the "pro illegal immigration party", then 2008 won't go so swell for us, especially if the economy is not doing well.

[Marie26]

10. Anti-immigration

I think the biggest problem isn't the illegal immigrants coming in, but the jobs going out of the US. Immigrants pay taxes, & buy things, & contribute to the US economy. Outsourced jobs are just gone, and leave a gaping hole in the economy - especially in industries like textile & steel that are now almost entirely located abroad. Advocating shooting illegal immigrants is sort of over the top. Police aren't allowed to just shoot people at random just because they suspect a crime is being committed. Sneaking over the border doesn't justify immediate execution.

[mitchtv]

9. death sentence?

for illegal crossing? better join your pals the minutemen. Simple answer for immigration violations.:Jail and confiscation for hiring illegals, no exceptions.

[truthInCO]

15. Law

We are a sovereign nation and have a right to protect our border. Do we need a minefield like North Korea? Or a barbwire DMZ like Russian borders? Or an enormous concrete barrier like Israel? Maybe not, but there is no debate that everyone "has the right" to cross into our country. It's myopic, suicidal and irresponsible to not enforce our borders.

Yes the problem is with businesses hiring illegals, but it's not the border patrols problem. Their job is to get home to live another day and try, at least try, to keep out illegals of all sorts, well-intentioned and otherwise. Invading the border of a sovereign nation will get you shot....in some countries.

Come on down to Colorado and pay my property tax bill please.

[Bridget Burke]

21. What does your property tax bill have to do with immigration?

Most undocumented workers don't own Real Estate. But their landlords DO raise the rent when their taxes go up.

[truthInCO]

28. Public school

Well, for starters, my best friend is a 3rd grade teacher at the elementary school I went to, and 11 of her 14 students don't speak english. You're right, most undocumented workers don't own real estate and aren't paying property tax. But i'll pick up the $7k allocated per student because I know that kids need and deserve an education, and shouldn't be punished by the actions of their parents.

From Denver post:

Colorado spends about $7,000 per student per year in public schools, Lamm said, citing data from the Colorado Department of Education. There are an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 children of illegal immigrants in schools throughout the state. That’s $210 million to $280 million spent annually on the children of illegals, Lamm calculates.

At least in Colorado, school funding comes from our property taxes. But thanks to BushCo's NCLB program they will probably be closing my old school next year because of dismal test scores. I guess non english speaking students don't do well on standardized CSAP tests.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Correction: Even Renters DO pay Property Taxes.

Not directly--but their landlords increase rents when their taxes go up. Property taxes fund schools in Texas, too. Of course, renters don't have any "equity."

About the school closing--isn't that the fault of NCLB?

[High Plains]

11. You're advocating the non-judicial execution of illegal border

crossers? Amnesty International might have a problem with that. In fact, any democratic society might have a problem with that. Any humane society might have a problem with that.

[Marie26]

17. The Border Patrol would have a BIG problem with that. nt.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorthernSpy]

22. the poster did not actually make any racial remarks

You know, it never fails. Anytime someone dares to let on that he might not be entirely thrilled with illegal immigration, immediately the predictable accusations of "racism" fill the air.

Just like the poster you insulted, most Americans do indeed object to the violation of our borders and to the continued presence of the illegals. But most of us do not base our objections on racial grounds.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Actually, I thought his wish to shoot people was the "Redneck" part.

Apparently you agree that summary killing is what these people deserve.

[NorthernSpy]

37. do you have anything to contribute other than slander?

Apparently you agree that summary killing is what these people deserve.

Please point out where I said anything in favor of summarily killing border-crossers.

[Bridget Burke]

40. "they illegally enter the country they should be shot"

You rushed to his defense. Perhaps he would do the same to white "illegal aliens." Perhaps he is not racist. But do you really want him representing your cause?

And why is keeping "illegal aliens" out of the country such a major concern of yours? In a perfect world, I'd say to Hell with all politcal borders. In the real world, I think immigrantion policies need ironing out; I've known far too many hyper-educated, well-employed "aliens" who had to pay immigration lawyers big bucks to stay here. When my ancestors emigrated (not that long ago) it was not so difficult; they worked hard & their descendants climbed the ladder of education.

Of course, I'm speaking from Texas. Is your part of the country "suffering" more?

[Marie26]

25. There's a difference between

"not entirely thrilled" and "let's shoot them at the border". I'm not sure it's racist, it's just violent & inhumane.

[Ben Ceremos]

38. Shooting

illegal immigrants is racist.It goes like this... Immigrants are foreign, foreigners are aliens, aliens are a threat to USA...dehumanizing the "enemy". Shooting implies they are guilty of a mortal violation of the borders. This is a classic xenophobic, and consequently racist, rationale. Implicitly, (runs this argument)illegal immigration is a mortal danger and the enemy must be eliminated.

Immigrants of all stripe participate in the US economy and tax system. Afterall, when have you been able to purchase anything in the US without paying sales tax? Poor immigrants actually spend a considerable portion of their income in order to be able to stay and work in the country...I have had the experience that many Americans don't actually understand the dynamic of immigration, societal rejuvenation and cultural enlargement/development. Nearly all forms of immigration to industrial societies end up being a benefit for the society...

One more thing for all the gun guys; shooting a human is killing a member of the human race, ergo, racist by definition and cannibalistic as well.

[Bridget Burke]

44. No, he just wanted to shoot them all.

So, he's a gun-happy, homicidal non-racist.

[oregonindy]

24. LOL...and freeptards even show up in the guise of democraticunderground

dont agree with me so you label me and call me the enemy. why do you use the rethug playbook?

where in my frickin message did I talk about race? your assumption.

[President Kerry]

30. the disturbing part is the execution without due process you seem

to advocate. If violent criminals and suspected terrorists don't deserve that kind of treatment, surely you don't feel that undocumented workers do?

[oregonindy]

31. No I do not advocate execution without due process.

I even dont believe in the way corporal punishment is set up for the criminal justice system.

Sadly are not talking about criminal justice we are talking about war. We are in a war on terror of the chimps creation and potential terrorists and enemy combats are illegally coming across all of our borders in waves along with plain undocumented workers. There should be no due process on invaders during a time of war. We need to change laws to allow legal migrants in for short duration work permits and at the same time create a strong do not trespass or you will be shot for an invader presence on the borders. Were at war so dont invade and you wont get shot. A strong gate with a strong active and armed presence along with a just system for allowing honest workers in would change the situation for the better.

[Solon]

34. No it wouldn't, it would trigger a war with Mexico...

leading to probably the killing of hundreds of thousands of people on both sides of the border. You, sir, are an extremist in this regard. What you are advocating is not a solution, its the CREATION of a problem. Besides which it isn't even practical, we simply do not have the manpower or money to cover over a thousand miles of border. Stupidity run amok here! I swear!

ON EDIT: Using your justification, every American Soldier in Iraq deserves what they get.

[oregonindy]

35. you're fantasying about hundreds of thousands of deaths and calling me

an extremist.

I understand your opinion that you dont understand or like my position and that is okay.

We do have the manpower and money to do it. Just the lack of will in facing a national issue.


not sure I understand your edit response.

[President Kerry]

36. wow, that's a mouthful. I don't even know where to begin.

Let's start with a premise that the war is largely fictional and of chimp's making. War on terrorism is of the same kind as the war on cancer. To win it (in as much as it is winnable) you must identify and eliminate the causes. Anyway, does that declaration give * the right to declare martial law? Of course not. Secondly, Mexico is hardly a terrorist haven. Poor desperate folks risking their lives walking through a desert for a chance for a $4/hr job are not a terrorist threat. You do advocate either martial law, or vigilante justice, where the whole country of USA is treated as somebody's residence, and immigration is trespassing. Of course we are dealing with public land, subject to rule of law, not vigilantyism of somebody believing in a fictional war.

[High Plains]

39. Find a better metaphor, please. We are not "at war" with these

people. They are not "invaders." They are poor Mexicans looking for work.

And again, you are advocating shooting people at the border. I wouldn't call you a freeper, but you might want to seriously ponder what you're advocating. This is a liberal and progressive board, and I'm finding it hard to imagine how murdering people without trial or anything qualifies.

I will agree, however, that we do need to change the laws to allow for guest workers. I would add that we need to include the ones who are here already in any such program.

[NuttyFluffers]

32. cool, can we shoot those who hire illegals on sight as well?

:7
thinning out the managers and gated community families would be a fantastic deterrent, too, right? if we all just start shooting each other the world will be better off, right?
:evilgrin:

[Beausoir]

51. Jesus. What a monstrous post. You WANT dead children???

Advocating the murder of children, whatever their skin color..is sickening.
Get out of here. YOU are not wanted.

[Judi Lynn]

5. I wonder if the timing doesn't indicate there's a connection to this story

Mexico Investigates Death of Man Shot in U.S. by Border Patrol Agent

By GINGER THOMPSON
Published: January 4, 2006

MEXICO CITY, Jan. 3 - The Mexican authorities are investigating the death of an 18-year-old Mexican man shot by a United States Border Patrol agent after he had illegally crossed the border into California.

Witnesses told Mexican authorities that the man, Guillermo Martínez Rodríguez, was shot Friday. A brother and two other men traveling with him helped him to return to Tijuana, where he died in a hospital a day later.

Todd Fraser, a spokesman for the Border Patrol, acknowledged the shooting in a telephone interview on Tuesday, saying that an agent had "come under attack by an assailant who was throwing rocks." The agent "fired back in self-defense," Mr. Fraser said. Then, he said, the migrant climbed back over the fence and fled into Mexico.

Mr. Fraser said he did not have a figure for the number of migrants shot by American border agents last year, but he said the number of rock attacks by migrants against agents in the San Diego area had increased to 218 incidents in 2005, from 112 in 2004. "The rock attacks are increasing, and that is attributed to the increased enforcement by our agents," he said. "Smugglers are getting frustrated because they can't get their loads through, and that results in more attacks on our officers."
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/04/international/americas/04mexico.html
(Free registration required)

[pocket]

13. "we killed a guy. quick, bang out some reports that we've been shot at"

nah, that could never happen.

No such thing as a 'drop gun', either.

[mitchtv]

46. By george you've got it! Judi lynn

But you won't hear about the dead mexican. I say crininalize illegal hiring. Jail first , then court.

[dusmcj]

18. Fox is lucky Doober's a louche Yalie laissez-faire retardate

and he milks the fool for all he's worth. When the world is a cesspool polluted and run by corporations who grow humans in test tubes for fertilizer and as units of production, the socioeconomic elite will have achieved their goal state.

I suggest we propose to them that they go fuck themselves instead.

[Toots]

29. Doesn't Mexico have OIL? We better invade and do a little shock & awe

Just to keep in good practice, Never know when our next invasion will be..

[hogwyld]

43. What happened to my beloved DU?

Some of the racist, xenophobic replies I am reading are very disturbing. I thought we were the true compassionate, open, and welcoming people. but I can't understand somebody willing to shoot people for wanting to come in and wash dishes for a measly $4. This is a progressive board, but I have seen a lot of regression into immigrant bashing. People, we are ALL immigrants!

[Bridget Burke]

45. Speaking from Texas, I think we need to find better ways to deal....

With undocumented workers. Streamline immigration. Ensure rights for ALL workers--this is an international job. Ensure better education & health care for all--don't let politicians blame their failures on "The Other." But I neither hate nor fear these visitors.

It's amazing how many folks from the more lily-white corners of the country are up in arms. (Literally, in one case.) Are they afraid that some of the "illegals' will eventually settle here legally? That things will change? I've even seen posts against ALL immigration--we're "Full." If these Du'ers aren't racist, they are definitely xenophobic. Why so much fear?

[mitchtv]

47. Let all the Mexicans not show up for work

some monday, and send gringos in to replace them.Watch for whining

[Beausoir]

54. I wonder the same thing. Such bigoted hatred on display here.

I won't quit fighting this.

[NorthernSpy]

56. the bigotry comes mostly from the "open borders" advocates

You object to the violation of your country's borders? You're a xenophobe.

You think that illegal aliens should be sent home? You're a racist.

You want American jobs reserved for American workers? How dare you be so selfish!

:eyes:

Yes, there is a lot of bigotry in this debate. Most of it comes from illegal immigration's apologists, who rarely have anything to offer besides an incoherent torrent of abuse, disrespect, and clueless 'do-gooder' arrogance.

Reality time: most Americans object strongly to illegal immigration. Most Americans want secure borders. Few Americans would agree that our country is obliged to accept anyone who feels like moving in. Very, very few of us favor any kind of "open borders" scheme.

Contrary to the pro-illegals propaganda, the opponents of illegal immigration are not some sort of lunatic fringe of racist weirdos. They -- we -- are mainstream. We are the majority.

Maybe you should keep that in mind as you denounce us.

[IndianaGreen]

57. I don't see you picking tomatoes in Florida

or doing other shit jobs that members of your class won't even dream of doing.

You have been watching Lou Dobbs for too long, change the channel, or better still, turn off the TV!

[NorthernSpy]

63. you presume

I don't see you picking tomatoes in Floridaor doing other shit jobs that members of your class won't even dream of doing.

Oh, indeed?

And just which class did you think I belonged to?

[IndianaGreen]

55. There are a lot of homophobes in DU as well

It is a class issue. Many that post such comments come from the investor class, many of whom worship at the feet of Lou Dobbs, or from hard-pressed members of the working class that are confused, as most Americans are, as to where their interests lay.

America was founded in racism. Slavery was an integral of the Constitution. We still have racism in this country.

There will be calls to built a Sharon-type wall across our borders with Mexico and Canada, which in effect will make us all prisoners in our own country.

[NorthernSpy]

50. UPDATE: Mexico considers trial in absentia for US Border Patrol agent

On Thursday, Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said that he and Interior Secretary Carlos Abascal had been assured by Rice and U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that there would be an investigation in order to avoid the perception that U.S. officials were trying to protect the agent in question. The agent has not been identified.

But Derbez also said that Mexico might consider a trial-in-absence of the Border Patrol officer, and he added that he believed last week's shooting death of Guillermo Martinez, 18, was caused by "a negative atmosphere" toward migrants in the United States. The Border Patrol says the shooting occurred after the migrant, who was trying to cross the border illegally, threw a large rock at the agent.

(...)

Asked if Mexico would consider trying the agent in absence, Derbez said "if the Attorney General's Office finds elements to do that, that is simply in line with Mexican government policy, which is not to rule out any potential action that we could use to avoid this going unpunished."

Mexican federal prosecutors have taken the unusual step of opening a homicide investigation into the case, without naming any suspects.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20060106-0822-mexico-usimmigration.html


Remember: this shooting occurred on US soil after illegals -- including Martinez -- attacked a Border Patrol agent.

Yes, there's a bad guy in this story. And believe it or not, it's not us.

[NorthernSpy]

52. UPDATE #2: dead man may have been alien-smuggler

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bordershoot5jan05,1,556707.story?coll=la-headlines-california

A Mexican man allegedly killed during a skirmish with a Border Patrol agent last week was a longtime human smuggler, according to U.S. officials, who have been fiercely criticized in Mexico over their handling of the incident.

Guillermo Martinez Rodriguez, 18, who Mexican investigators say was shot in the back, had been arrested 11 times on suspicion of smuggling migrants, Border Patrol officials said.

Martinez has been portrayed in the Mexican media as a migrant who crossed into California searching for work.

I guess human trafficking is just one of those "jobs that Americans refuse to do"...

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

60. This has been denied by family and Mexican government

US authorities also sought to demonize Martinez, claiming that he was a professional immigrant smuggler—known as coyotes or polleros. The charge was vigorously denied by his family, who pointed out that the youth lived in one of Tijuana’s poorest barrios and worked in construction. Mexican authorities also dismissed the accusation, pointing out that the youth had been sent back to Mexico numerous times by US authorities without ever being identified as a smuggler. Instead, they said, he had crossed by himself, apparently looking for work.

On Thursday, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff gave a press conference in San Ysidro, California, near the site of the shooting in which he essentially defended the killing. “This is the kind of thing that occurs when people try to illegally cross the border,” he said. “There is zero tolerance for violence along the border.”

This “zero tolerance” declaration appeared to endorse the Border Patrol answering rocks with bullets, using lethal force under conditions in which the lives of agents are in no imminent danger—a departure for the agency’s written policy. Moreover, the US and Mexico signed a bilateral agreement in 2001 that called for the Border Patrol to use non-lethal weapons rather than firearms in the San Diego area in order to avoid such killings.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/bord-j07.shtml

[IndianaGreen]

53. "a Border Patrol agent fatally shot a teenage Mexican immigrant "

That incident came on the same day a Border Patrol agent fatally shot a teenage Mexican immigrant as he crossed the border near San Diego on December 30, triggering widespread anger in Mexico and calls for a full investigation.

I wonder if Bush will plunge our country into wars against Mexico and Canada before long?

[oasis]

58. CNN's Lou Dobbs is going to have a field day with this news.

[IndianaGreen]

61. And Lou Dobbs' clones in DU are wetting their pants

They don't like the increasing number of Latinos in the US, whether legal or not, and they cringe at the sights and sounds of Spanish in our cities.

[IndianaGreen]

59. 18-year-old shot by Border Patrol

18-year-old shot by Border Patrol

Killing fuels Mexican anger over US immigration policy

By Bill Van Auken
7 January 2006

The fatal shooting of an 18-year-old immigrant by a US Border Patrol agent last week has fueled popular anger in Mexico over an increasingly repressive and xenophobic immigration policy that is being crafted in Washington.

Guillermo Martinez Rodriguez, a Tijuana resident, was shot in the back and fatally wounded December 30 while fleeing from a US agent on the US side of the border between Tijuana and San Diego, California. He and his brother, Agustin, managed to make it back to Mexico, where Guillermo died in a hospital the next day.

<snip>

US authorities also sought to demonize Martinez, claiming that he was a professional immigrant smuggler—known as coyotes or polleros. The charge was vigorously denied by his family, who pointed out that the youth lived in one of Tijuana’s poorest barrios and worked in construction. Mexican authorities also dismissed the accusation, pointing out that the youth had been sent back to Mexico numerous times by US authorities without ever being identified as a smuggler. Instead, they said, he had crossed by himself, apparently looking for work.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/bord-j07.shtml