Patronizing a prostitute is now a specific crime for servicemembers

[Ernesto]

Wow, the president AWOL strikes again!

ARLINGTON, Va. — For the first time, the Department of Defense has specifically made it a crime for a servicemember to patronize a prostitute. The punishment: up to a year in prison, forfeiture of pay and dishonorable discharge.

The formal order came in a presidential executive order signed without fanfare Oct. 14, directing changes in the Manual for Courts-Martial. It is part of an assault the military has been waging against human trafficking.

“Marines are briefed by their commanders, especially those who are deploying overseas, that they should not engage in prostitution,”.
...... As I recall, the only briefing we got was on "how not to get V.D.".
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?article=34148

[xchrom]

1. lol -- the morals police are going to be very busy.

[OKthatsIT]

50. Does this mean no more Jeff Gannon's in the WH?

Come on...let's be fair, George!

[MaineDem]

2. If it's retroactive our military will be decimated

:evilgrin:

[alfredo]

15. Read all about it. the gross guys

Spook is dead. He just passed away. Long live Spook.

http://www.geozazz.com/zazz03.htm

[sweetheart]

3. Gosh if they'd only make it a crime...

not to rape/murder the people of okinawa...

[cosmicone]

18. Yes .. an extremely scary thought indeed

If the soldiers are not allowed to relieve their urges from commercial sex workers, all non-prostitute women are endangered in the way of rape.

[Bigmack]

4. OMFG!

Overseas, too?

I have never liked the idea of prostitution, but.. young men... overseas... long deployments... ??

History is on the side of "boy meets girl, boy pays girl, boy gets girl".

In WWII one house had lines of sailors that extended around the block... same with the Pink House in Numea.

Do da name Betty Boom-Boom ring a bell wit any of youse?

[SpiralHawk]

22. Do the name Ruby Begonia strike a familiar note?

eom

[TankLV]

24. In WWII the US had official brothels on Hotel Street in Honolulu!

My former boss's first projects were to "design" these "hotels" with many small rooms and NO bathrooms except one down the hall.

Many of these structures still exist today, and have been/are being renovated.

One of my friends inherited a couple from his father's estate a few years back.

[hack89]

31. The demand for sex workers fuels human trafficking ...

this is a good thing. Many of these prostitutes are bought and sold as near slaves.

[PatGund]

32. Not all....

They aren't in Nevada. And I happen to be exchanging emails with an escort in Australia, (we're on the same literary list). There's many places in the world where it's legal and the women (and men) who work it do so willingly.

Makes no sense that our servicepeople would get condemmed if it's legal in that area.

[northzax]

42. there are very few places, actually

that combine legal prostitution with very little human trafficking. Just because it's legal in Nevada, you're telling me the street walkers are all doing it willingly? If it's legal, why is there still illegal street prostitution (which also exists in Australia) Inside a fairly expensive brothel, you might make an arguement that people are in it 'willingly' but the streetwalkers in Vegas are, as a general rule, in no better shape than the ones in DC or Los Angeles.

[PatGund]

44. In Nevada

Prostitution is legal only in some counties, and only in established licenced brothels. Las Vegas is in one of the counties it is not legal, and streetwalking is illegal thoughout all of Nevada.

So yes, a serviceperson would be breaking the law in Las Vegas, or if they hired a streetwalker. But not if they went to one of the legal brothels in Nevada. And certainly the people (male and female) working the brothels in Nevada are doing it willingly, (has well as undergoing regular health and licencing requirements and a manditory condom-use law.)

Apples and oranges. If people want to use a service legal in the area, they should. And while there is a tragic amount of victimization in the prostitution field due to it being illegal in many areas, there have been, and always will be, people who choose that profession willingly and work it legally. Not to mention that when it is legal, the people working it have a lot more say over their customers and activities, keep more of their money, recieve workers benefits, and are healthier for it. In some areas, sex workers are even unionized. Contrast that to the people being victimized in illegal trafficing.

[northzax]

45. Well, in certain countries

you can do drugs that are illegal in the United States, and the UMCJ bans servicemen from smoking weed in Amersterdam. The military can choose to set a higher standard for it's members, if it chooses to. Hell, in Zurich, you can shoot heroin in some parks, should the Military allow soldiers to do that as well? Where the basic US standard of behaviour is higher, the military should apply that standard, to its voluntary membership. Everyone in the military is there by choice (well, except for the stop-lossers, but even they joined willingly) therefore the military can restrict behaviour among its members to a higher standard than that of local law.

and, according to this survey (http://www.sex-in-nevada.com/Bashful/SURVEYS/r_0543.html) the average cost of an hour in a Nevada brothel is $301. How many grunts making 20 grand are paying that much for sex? and since that survey is five years old, I bet the rates are higher now.

Adn to use Nevada brothels as a basis for talking about prostitution is like using Heidi Fleiss' escort service as the basis, or an Amsterdam coffee shop as the basis to talk about the international drug trade. It's not really a fair comparison, one way or the other. Have you ever actually been to a brothel? Sure, there are a couple that are nice, and treat the talent well, and compensate them well, but for the most part, they are brutal places. And are servicemembers, under your plan, responsible for identifying which brothels are legal and which are not?

[PatGund]

46. Well....

Does drug use have an adverse effect on the service personnel's readyness for duty? Yes. I can understand that being made a criminal offense. Does using the services of a prostitute in an area where it is illegal have an effect on readyness for duty? More than likely, due to exposure to STD's and the like, plus the chances of a criminal record and the like. Does using the services of a legal prostitute have an adverse effect on readyness for duty? I fail to see why it would.

Have I ever used a brothel or a sex worker? No actually. I base a lot of my viewpoints in the field from people I correspond with that actually work in that field, both in the US and Australia.

As for legal vs. illegal, I suspect a list would be as close as the nearest phone book. The legal ones would be listed. Hell, the internet can also show legal brothels in an area.

[grahamhgreen]

57. Brothel rates and link

Here are the rates and a link to a Sydney Brothel (AUS.$):

Fees:
1/2 hr - Room fee $90 (Inc GST) + Ladies fee $90 = $180 (about $125 USD)
45 min - Room fee $105 (Inc GST) + Ladies fee $105 = $210
1 hr - Room fee $110 (Inc GST) + Ladies fee $130 = $240

<http://www.dailyplanet.com.au/content2/index.html>

Or better yet CALL THEM - AUS 03-9528-1726!

NOTE - as I understand it,in Australia it is illegal for a male to profit from a female brothel, ie - the entire operation must be owned and run by women...

[BrendaStarr]

72. Glad you said that

The whole illegality of the thing is stupid!

[Bigmack]

34. I remember seeing the "joy boats" in Hong Kong....

with the kids... of both sexes... on them.

I know, maybe better than you, about the exploitation of women... and kids.. in prostitution. Our Marine bases in Japan and Okinowa had the Navy medics regularly test the bargirls near the bases. Is that a good use of US taxpayer dollars?

I just can't figure a way around this whole problem.

Young men WILL have sex, and military rules won't stop them.

[LisaL]

54. I think Dateline had a show on it.

In the Philippines, I believe, little girls, about 7 or 8, forced into prostitution, and american men that go over there so they can have sex with these little girls.

[oneighty]

5. Now it will

be because of love. No money will be passed, no favors, just love.

180

[baby_mouse]

6. "What's patronising, Johnny?"

"That's when you talk DOWN to people, darlin."

Sorry...

[MADem]

7. Yep, this happened last fall--the LTTE in Stars and Stripes griped

mightily!!! Most of the complaints came from Germany and Korea, predictably...

If you were gonna "go after" a servicemember (the old 'piling on of charges' for someone regarded as a bad apple) you could previously have gotten them with the "general article" (134) but now this is a stand-alone offense.

[dusmcj]

8. I'd be more impressed if they investigated Dyncorp into oblivion

It would demonstrate Resolve, Firmness, Character and Leadership (not to mention Confidence). Or in normal language, a commitment to their proclaimed aims.

In fact, while we're at it, sex trafficking is a multibillion dollar business involving the movement of thousands of people a year across international borders. There must be a lot of collusion in this world which still consists of national borders, tax ministries, etc. if this sort of thing, which is illegal in most all nations, continues at its existing volume. (Don't think for a minute that I don't know the dynamics of the situation and that I'm actually wondering how this happens.) So instead of being buttbuddies with business like they usually are, the administration could instead apply pressure American-style to the worst known bad actors in this situation until they ceased and desisted. Of course that would have to start at home, but they could try doing two things at once (and both correctly, imagine that).

[drdtroit]

9. Are the female soldiers now required to wear a Burqa?

:patriot:

[dusmcj]

49. they were in Saudi since GW1

I recall an interview with a lady attack pilot (made me weak in the knees ;) ) who explained how pissed off she was that mil admin made her and her female colleagues wear burqas when moving around offbase with or without males (maybe there was also a req to always have a male escort, this was Saudi after all but I don't recall). And that they were in fact subject to harassment by the local pop and the douchebag morals police IIRC. A boot in the nuts would seem to be such an effective cure for this sort of thing, but I guess that might provoke an international incident. Bin Laden would feel motivated to mount a special attack just to respond to the uppity women. Assholes.

[onager]

63. I was in Saudi Arabia at that time

In Jeddah, where I was working. (Working as a civilian, not in the military.)

I think (but am not sure) that a really ugly incident involving a female Army officer caused that stupid decision about the burka. (It's usually called an "abaya" in Saudi, FWIW.)

In a story that the military really tried to keep quiet, a Saudi fanatic stabbed the officer, who was walking with 2 male soldiers. They got the assailant away from her, and I'm pretty sure they were (quietly) given medals for it. The woman was hurt but fortunately not killed.

The frigging Religious Police (matowa) really made life interesting over there. You never knew what would set them off from day to day. It was totally arbitrary. They don't really have any police powers themselves, so you almost always saw them with a real, armed Saudi cop to intimidate the evildoers.

Their real name is Committee For The Preservation Of Virtue And The Suppression Of Vice. They are in the phone book. What they basically are is government-paid busybodies who spy on their neighbors, looking for "un-Islamic behavior."

One of them barked at a bunch of us Americans one time because the women in our group were laughing at a joke someone had just told. The matowa informed us that women laughing in public was "unseemly."

[TlalocW]

10. Well, I'm not as worried about a draft getting me now

Let them institute it. First chance I get, I'm patronizing a prostitute, taking pictures, insisting that she give me a receipt, whatever.

I'd rather spend a year in prison than the frontlines of a phony war.

TlalocW

[LibDemAlways]

19. That's exactly what would happen if the

draft came back. The hookers would be lined up right outside bootcamp with cameras and credit card swipers.

What a stupid ass the chimp is, and the military brass isn't much brighter for going along with a scheme that would lead to logjams in the military courts as draftees flaunted the law as an escape hatch.

It has all the makings of a Hollywood comic blockbuster. I hope some big producer is paying attention.

[northzax]

41. it's fine with the Brass because they don't want a draft

draftees are notoriously bad for discipline and effectiveness of a military force. Besides, there are better ways out. anyone wanna volunteer to trade blowjobs, on camera, if we get drafted? no jail time, simply a dishonorable discharge.

on edit: they'll have to change much more in the courts-martial if there is a draft. And I think it's a good thing that the military is actually taking an official stand against human trafficking. there are quite a few things that a general citizen can do in Nevada that someone in the military can't do.

[LisaL]

52. Oh for crying out loud.

If draft comes back, and somebody refuses to go to war, they probably will be send to spend some time in prison. Involving prostitutes in a scheme to avoid going to war is completely un-necessary. Better just say you are gay.

[TlalocW]

56. Yeah, but...

If I'm going to jail either way, I might as well make sure I get laid before I go.:rofl:

TlalocW

[LisaL]

51. You get the exact same thing if you simply refuse to go to war.

No need to involve a prostitute.

[Daphne08]

11. This is so stupid!

What about the men and women at war?

They are risking their lives, and they read some stupid crap like this? A real morale builder!

[TreasonousBastard]

12. The mind boggles. Was once a time...

when you could get busted for getting the clap, but this is ridiculous.

So, just how strict were they with the thousands of hookers descending on the Republican convention last year?

[leftofthedial]

13. might as well make it a sin to masturbate

violators will go blind

[TankLV]

27. That is also a punishable offense now.

Just LOVE the way these REPUKE CHICKENHAWKS are "looking after the welfare of our troops"! I mean, body amour is SUCH a non-important issue, isn't it - let alone adequate medical care for our wounded...

[dusmcj]

73. great story from Vietnam

from the book "Chickenhawk" by a Huey pilot - it seems that while based at a particular location, the incidence of VD skyrocketed, causing units to be perilously shorthanded, penicillin supplies to be depleted, etc. The CO of the larger unit "took the matter in hand" by declaring the tarts off limits and asking the men to "take the matter in hand". Audience member asks out loud, "you mean jerk off ?" One of the author's buddies, belts out "is that an order ?" Enraged CO and lackeys demand that the offender identify himself, but to no avail.

[brooklynite]

14. Dowes that include places where it's legal?

Holland?

Germany?

Nevada?

[TankLV]

28. There's SEX in Las Vegas?!?!?!?!?! I'm SHOCKED!

Shocked, I tell you!

[brooklynite]

66. Actually, not Vegas...

it's legal in several of the outlying rural counties.

[TankLV]

77. Then you haven't been to Vegas.

I'm not talking about "legal/illegal".

I'm talking about S.E.X.

(I live here in Vegas, ya know?)

[pfitz59]

30. Australia?

Korea?
Etc...
Etc...
Pity the poor enlisted man!

[Ezlivin]

16. As an ex-Navy sailor, this is an impossible order!

When we pulled into the Philippines, our CO told us that the city of Olongapo had "100,000" prostitutes.

He then let us go out for liberty. (I was married, but, hoo boy, my fellow sailors had fun. Many of them also came back with something they didn't leave the boat with: STDs. But penicillin was all that was needed.)

Ah, the old days.

What do the poor sailor boys do now? Soon they'll outlaw masturbation in keeping with the newly instituted biblical principles for military service.

[PsN2Wind]

25. Yea, when you were only in port for a few days at a time

it was difficult to establish meaningful relationships that would lead to physical intimacy so we "patronized the prostitutes". Had it not been for the whores in P.I., Okinawa, Japan, Hong Kong etc. every guy on the carrier would have gone blind.

[TankLV]

29. Masturbation is already a punishable offense.

[LisaL]

53. Now days, penicillin won't cure a scratch.

I see the point in a law such as this, but imagine it will be impossible to enforce.

[LibDemAlways]

17. It's acceptable to kill an innocent civilian as

"collateral damage" and torturing prisoners doesn't ruffle too many feathers, but pay for sex and get thrown out. Chimp may have just unwittingly created a relatively painless escape hatch for the disgruntled.

[RagingInMiami]

20. No gays, no prostitutes

What's next? No masturbation?

[bluestateguy]

21. That's stupid

One of the best ways for some of these men to relax is to get laid. This will hurt morale.

[ckramer]

23. Then they better provide internal prostitutes or let them bring their

girls or wives.

[saltpoint]

26. But whoring an entire nation's foreign policy to oil cartels is --

-- perfectly acceptable?

Just one's person's opinion here, but I have no quarrel with anybody hiring prostitutes, especially service men and women who could surely be said to be under life-and-death pressure most of the time in Iraq.

The exception might be if the prostitute himself was Jeff Gannon and his work as a "reporter" was to whore for right-wing Bush propaganda.

[w8liftinglady]

33. my son would be in deep doo-doo

he called me after overdrawing his checking account(during his first deployment to Germany)after seeing multiple withdrawels for the same amount from one establishment,I asked him what was going on<although I had a pretty good idea>.He told me-"those girls think we're cool".I couldn't help but laugh at the visual of all those lanky 18 year-old boys with shaved heads and horn-rimmed glasses.

[Qanisqineq]

35. Seems a little extreme

I know my husband did this once or twice while stationed overseas years before we ever met (I'm not thrilled with it, but I have my own past) and I don't find the practice deplorable. BUT, in some areas of the world, women are enslaved for the sex trade. THAT is disturbing. He is in Korea right now and they get educated on this fact. I am not saying every prostitute in Korea is being forced, but the whole idea of taking that risk makes me ill.

[Ilsa]

36. Now that might be worth knowing about if a draft is ever

instituted again. Of course, the regs will be ignored then.

[newswolf56]

37. This will cause a new VD epidemic because now soldiers will be afraid...

to go on sick call when they catch an STD: this was first demanded by Bush's Christian supporters -- fundamentalist and mainstream alike -- shortly after he took office in 2001, but was fiercely opposed by Defense Department medical professionals, for obvious reasons. But that opposition has since been suppressed, and last October's executive order -- further proof of the corporate/Republican intent to impose Christian theocracy -- was the result.

(The VD epidemics of the 1920s and 1930s were a product of the same moralistic idiocy: catching VD was a court-martial offense until the Roosevelt Administration ordered the regulations reformed so that NOT reporting VD was a court-martial offense, while treatment was provided without penalty. The resultant changes shrank the incidence of VD to the relatively very low level characteristic of the years before the AIDS outbreak.)

Bush's new mandatory chastity order is a huge bonus both for the pro-military leadership and for capitalism in general: sexually frustrated males are dependably many thousand times more viciously sadistic (note the unspeakable tortures gleefully inflicted by celibate priests, monks and protestant pastors during European history, especially on female victims), and a sexually frustrated population invariably compensates for its frustrations by orgies of impulse-buying materialism.

Here is another example of the hateful Bush/Christian war against human sexuality:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=75750&mesg_id=75750


_________
Edit: to add above link.

[raysr]

38. I was told

when stationed in AZ, "You're not allowed to cross the border into Mexico, but when you do these cities have the highest VD rate." Geeze it was FUN!!!

[bahrbearian]

39. And then you have Jeff Gannon strutting around the WH. N/T

[daleo]

40. I don't suppose this will help recruitment

From that point of view, it might be small roadblock on the road to BFEE wars.

[opihimoimoi]

43. This is so stupid its scarey.....damn...

[kenny blankenship]

55. Rum, sodomy, and the lash!

are what men can count on for passtimes in our new imperial military. It's traditional according to old Winnie.
And recruitment will be excellent.

[Oversea Visitor]

47. Well well well

Get a lay and a ticket home from Iraq.
Wheee

[fasttense]

48. These guys joined the military Not a nunnery or celibate religious sect.n/

[grahamhgreen]

58. Perhaps they are hoping this will encourage more young men to have sex...

with eachother!

GO Gannon/Guckert!

[NuttyFluffers]

59. i wonder if this will raise incident of date rape from service members?

human sexuality is pretty much an unstoppable force, so they'll get sex any way they can. it's not a matter of stopping it, it's a matter of criminalizing it and making the problem worse or legalizing it and regulating it.

you can't completely turn off mighty rivers, but you can levy, dredge, and dam them to control their flow. human sexual drives are pretty much the same thing. remember, life will find a way... often we end up not liking the results.

i don't like human trafficking just like most people, but that's just more of an argument to de-criminalize and institute strict regulation. bring back the vestigal virgins! :7

[LostinVA]

65. Horny guys don't rape == rapists rape

And date rape is rape.

[Silverhair]

60. This will be widely ignored by local commanders.

There are lots of orders and regulations that come down from on high that are ignored. This will be in that category.

[LisaL]

61. Probably so. Doesn't mean some poor unfortunate soul

won't get caught and go in prison for it, though.

[Orsino]

67. It will probably be ignored only if...

...a war is declared, and commanders have real missions taking up their attention, and trouble persuading troops to enlist or reenlist. Until then, though, moralize away. :sarcasm:

[Silverhair]

69. I spent 9 years in active duty, 5 as an officer. It will be ignored.

Knee jerk cynicism is not a substitute for rational thought and experience.

[BiggJawn]

62. Well, that breaks a 10,000 year tradtion.

No matter, because ReTHUG businessmen, like Neal Bush, will take up the slack when they travel to Asia where barely-pubescent girls will "break the door down" trying to get at them in their hotels...

Next thing you know, they'll make jerking-off a crime. Soldiers are more effective when they're frustrated, angry, and about half-crazy, y'know...

[onager]

64. The military tried this before

And I expect this attempt will have about as much success.

After WWII, American occupation troops in Germany were put under a "non-fraternization" order. Legally they couldn't fraternize at all with any German civilians. Though clearly, the order was pushed thru by military moralizers worried about fraternization with any available frauleins.

Gen. George Patton, who probably knew a thing or two about the military, hit the ceiling and ranted against the "bluenoses in Washington." He also uttered the nifty quote: "When morality goes down, morale goes up."

The same order went to Japan, then firmly under the thumb of the notoriously conservative and moralistic Gen. Douglas MacArthur. (Well, except for his famous fling with a Filipino dancer and rumored former hooker...)

As I remember from one biography: MacArthur read the order, laughed, tossed it in a trashcan and said: "My father taught me to never give an order I couldn't enforce."

[oneoftheboys]

68. Prostitution should be legalized.

However, I do not see how soliciting a prostitute's services cannot be a crime if prostitution itself is.

[Silverhair]

70. I depends upon the context.

There are many things that for a service member can be a crime, although the activity itself may be legal. Some of them make sense, some don't.

[oneoftheboys]

74. Yes, but isn't illegal for a service member to engage

in prostitution as well?

[Strawman]

71. Probably makes sense to be the official policy

I'm sure in a place like Iraq seeing women turned into prostitutes for US troops doesn't do much to help win hearts and minds. And in principle it's exploitive, especially under the circumstances whwere you have the troops of a rich superpower stationed in a poor country.

Still, good luck enforcing it. I'm sure they won't. Men stationed overseas for years are going to want to get laid and women in these areas need the money. This is a PR move and one that won't really matter one way or another. This is just so Karen Hughes can act like we're doing something when she goes on her little Middle Eastern PR tour. "Sure Middle Eastern lady. It's true we bombed your house and killed your uncle and all his children. But that was an unfortunate accident. What is important is that on Oct. 14, 2005 George W. Bush signed an executive order barring troops from exploiting women as prostitutes. That shows you that the US is committed to making life better for women in the Middle East."

In the neocon imagination, this little tidbit of information can turn an Iraqi woman standing on the ruins of her home from a Bush cursing finger waving opponent of the occupation, into a war supporter. That's how fucking clueless and ideologically blinded they are. This policy is nothing more than a Karen Hughes designed talking point for the poor press attache in Control Room (who is a sympathetic figure in my opinion).

It ain't gonna fly.

[Silverhair]

75. Yeah, it is window dressing.

Been done before, as others in this thread have pointed out, and ignored in each case. Nothing new.

[classysassy]

76. Pimps and Hookers

will have to join the military to continue to screw the troops.It is also good news for all the ugly female soldiers.

[Centered]

78. What about asking for a freebie??

would that still be a crime then??

[Old Vet]

79. You've got to be kidding!