At War on the High Seas (Sea Shepherd vs. whalers)

[JackieO]

At war on the high seas

The captain of the Farley Mowat says he's willing to ram a Japanese whaling ship

Robyn Doolittle
January 11, 2006
National Post


More than two decades ago, Canadian environmental activist Paul Watson made a name for himself when he sank one of the most notorious pirate whaling ships in history in a Portugal harbour. In 1986 he made headlines when his organization, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, sank half the Icelandic whaling fleet. Now Mr. Watson is once again causing an international uproar after sideswiping a Japanese whaling ship off the coast of Antarctica. He says he will continue to aggressively intervene - ramming the whaling ships, if necessary - until the fleet stops what he insists is an illegal hunt.

...Despite international protests, Japan has this year more than doubled its planned catch of minke whales to 935 and added 10 endangered fin whales, with plans to eventually lift the number to 50, along with 50 rare humpback whales.

...Mr. Watson, who is originally from New Brunswick, has been involved in conservation since age 10 when he joined the Kindness Club to help animals. A founding member of Greenpeace, he left the organization in 1977 after becoming frustrated with their passive protest tactics. He has taken a more aggressive approach with Sea Shepherd that has earned him international notoriety.

"We've never hurt anybody in three decades, and we're very proud of that record," said Mr. Watson. "We're being aggressive, yes. And when people say we damage property, yes. But only property that is being used illegally.

More





Sea Shepherd Antarctic Expedition media page



Sea Shepherd Conservation Society

[tritsofme]

1. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If what is happening is in Japanese waters and is not illegal in Japan, they have no case.

They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for their acts of vandalism and be fined appropriately as well.

[JackieO]

2. They're in Antarctica.

Check facts, then post.

[acmejack]

3. It is happening in International waters!

Get a grip on the facts please! Defending the barbarity of the Japanese in this venture is disgusting & you should be ashamed. The Greenpeace people need a destroyer, IMO. I hereby volunteer to crew said vessel.

[400Years]

8. The Sea Shepards are doing what is right

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

59. I'm sure you are aware

that the term JAP is basically the same as the term nigger.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

62. I heard plenty from my buddies

but always found it odd to hear a black man call an arab a sand n*gger or some other derogatory term.

My point is that not all Japanese are in on this. It's a slur.

It dumbs down the discussion.

[saigon68]

63. Actually not that odd

The "brothers" sometimes referred to their friends with that word. Whites didn't directly use the word tho

[Pavulon]

69. My buddies

used the word and ended it with an a, never with an er. In that context it was not a race thing. It was common across races, I used it with guys I knew really well. Everyone listened to the same music. The black guys used it to refer to some of us. We were all on pretty good terms.

However I never use it in the real world. Way to easy to be misunderstood.

[Bonobo]

74. I didn't hear you. Could you speak up?

What did you just call Japanese people, Saigon68?

[saigon68]

77. I guess someone couldn't handle it

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

86. Whatever

I could alert you, but it ain't worth the time why are you here anyway?

TO PICK A FLAME WAR?

TO BE A HERO

TO THREATEN PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO KICK THEIR ASS

And what does your wife have to do with illegal criminal whaling anyway?

[Bonobo]

87. Yup. All of the above if it annoys you.

[SaveElmer]

60. Yeah...using that term is not helping...

That term is derogative, much like the N word and should not be used.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

66. WOULDN'T FIT IN THE CAPTION BOX!--ok ?--+ ANESE add that -NO SLUR HERE

JEEZE PEOPLE-
LET'S GET ON TOPIC HERE!
I used all my spaces in the caption box--
ADDRESS THE ISSUE or get off the post-
Nit-picking grammar etc., can ruin the discussion.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

67. ANESE wouldn't fit-Add Anese pleeze-Jeez Louise-doze and deeze-add anese

Anese
Jap
Anese
Jap
Anese
Jap
anese Whalers---NOT all the race from Japan--JUST the Japanese Whalers--O.k?
so understand each other?

Now let's get on topic-
You agree with the scumbag environmental terrorists who terrorize our environment and rape and pillage for profit-disregarding international agreement killing whales or anything they think they can make a buck on?

OR not?
Which is it?

Takes 2 to 4 hours of unbearable PAIN to kill a Whale as it is ripped apart alive-One of the cruelest methods known to MAN.

Are the Corp's right?

oops I said Corps--didn't mean that as a slur--just meant corporations--

[depakid]

54. Sink 'em- because there is such a thing as wrong and right

And the whaling ships- they just happen to be not only wrong, but in violation of internaional treaties.

In fact, I'd go further and say that the navies of responsible countries ought to be enforcing sustainability of the world's fisheries all around the globe. And if they can't do it- hand out letters off marque- just like they did 200 years ago.

It's that important.

[formercia]

4. That's a dangerous area to fool around

I spent 9 months on and off in the seas off Antarctica while in the Navy. The whole time we only encountered one ship and that was a Norwegan whaler. You get in trouble there and it may be weeks before a ship can get to you. Water temperatures near the ice pack run around 28 deg. F, and having been accidentally dunked in it, I can say that it's paralizingly cold. 3 or 4 minutes and you're history. If the Japanese ships ae doing something illegal, Greenpeace ought to report violations to southern hemisphere naval forces and let them deal with it. It would be shameful for someone to get killed.

[sofa king]

5. The whole damned thing is a total mess.

There are a whole lot more than just two wrongs going on here. One wrong is that the Japanese are still (I think), bagging minkes for "scientific purposes," but the carcasses are sold to restaraunts. In the past, they have claimed that culling is necessary because otherwise--I shit you not--the whales would eat all the fish. Maybe we should start calling blubber "Japanese crack."

But that's only one side of the wrongs. The authoritative body which governs how many whales can be taken is the International Whaling Commission, not the International Save-the-Whales Commission. The IWC was hijacked by the Americans and other nations which we could bribe or intimidate, so that now the body which was supposed to regulate the process of whaling is in fact trying to strangulate the legal worldwide whaling industry.

If the IWC is misused to ban legal whaling entirely, that will merely open the doors still wider for unregulated pirate whaling, and probably spark the exit of whaling nations from the IWC. The whales probably won't eat all the fish in the sea, but given the chance the Japanese will eat every last whale there is.

Like I said, it's a total mess, and it seems to me that the only hope for the whales is that the supply of whale meat to Japan can be kept small and expensive enough that succeeding generations don't acquire the taste for it. That's a slim hope, if you ask me, and I have nothing but admiration for the people who work safely and honestly to keep that hope alive.

[xchrom]

6. the prices are low, and they feed whale meat to children

to create a future market.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=95806&mesg_id=95806

this is about an aberrant act -- the whales should be left alone -- period.

if whaling is banned and people pirate then can be international policing bodies to take care of it.

[Bonobo]

25. Aberrant? Like eating cow, chicken, sheep, deer, pig, turkey, ostrich,

buffalo, alligator, frog, fish, mollusks, etc.

Are you so certain that your culturally bound values are universally correct? Might not there be a smidgen of arrogance in your POV?

[SaveElmer]

28. Closer to wearing fur than your examples...

It is not even close to being a staple in the diet of Iceland, Norway or Japan. They may continue the practice for partially cultural reasons (but mostly to keep whalers employed), but that does not make it right. Whales are endangered, and Japan in particular is hunting them outside of the rules they agreed to. They are pirating Whale meat and need to be held accountable.

In contrast, you notice there is no protest over the few whales Inuits are allowed to take each year as whale meat is a significant portion of their diet.

[xchrom]

41. ding! ding! ding!

winner!

[LeftyMom]

52. Yep, those are wrong too.

I wouldn't say "abberant" since flesh consumption is a common behavior. Immoral, definitely.

[TheBaldyMan]

117. are the any landlocked countries that are IWC members?

it wouldn't surprise me, I'd say that Norway and Japan have especially shoddy records on the bribery front.

[flvegan]

7. The ramming and sinking of The Sierra

http://www.seashepherd.org/fleet/fleet_sea_shepherd.html

My favorite quote from Capt. Watson from another interview (Bite Back):

"I was brought before the Port Captain and charged with gross criminal negligence. I replied by saying that there was nothing negligent about the ramming because I hit the bastard exactly where I intended to."

In Iceland, I believe the whaling ships were sent to the bottom by opening the seacocks while nobody was on board.

[Pavulon]

9. Whaling is sick but

someone will get killed doing this shit. Ramming ships together is dangerous. Someone will end up with trauma, drowned, or be shot.

That is one of the most isolated places in the world. You fuck up there and you are in deep shit.

[400Years]

11. Yes, let's all limit our actions to the purely symbolic and inneffectual

after all only the inconsequential efforts are the safest

[SaveElmer]

16. Symbolism is important too...

Each of these groups uses different methods of getting their point across...some work within the system like the Sierra Club and NRDC, some outside of it like Sea Shepherd...all are valuable.

It's a multi front fight, and we are going to have to work on all fronts to be successful!

[Pavulon]

19. Harass the shit out of them..

fine. Actually ramming a ship is dangerous to everyone. A sinking there would be certain death to all involved.

[4_TN_TITANS]

90. Get Your Save the Whales Car Maget....

show you really support the whales

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

91. right next to your YELLOW ribbon on your Black SUV--something FUNNY here?

n/t

[DS1]

17. Good

I have no sympathy for these people. I hope the have to swim for a few hours first.

[Pavulon]

20. Arctic.

You are dead in minutes. Ramming is dangerous to all involved. It is illegal and risks lives.

This could escalate into something bad for all involved.

[DS1]

21. I know

but if they had time to put their dry-suits on I'd be okay with them hanging around a bit. Hopefully get nibbled on by whale.

Yes, I'll say it. I want them dead.

[Pavulon]

23. Ok

I think whaling is sick. But killing people is harsh.

Publicity is good though. I can see your point. Can't really bring myself to argue against it..

[One_Life_To_Give]

27. Assuming all the zippers work fine

Won't take much of a malfunction to cause fatalities in those waters.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

30. Actually...

In some African countries, particularly Kenya I believe, police are allowed to shoot on sight any poachers they find in the act taking endangered animals (Rhinos for example).

[Bonobo]

33. Bush meat is considered a delicacy and is commonly consumed in regions

where gorillas and chimps live.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/bushmeat1.html

[DS1]

34. Excellent!

Hats off to the Kenyans.

[DS1]

31. Boo!

I'd like to go on a Poacher safari too. That's right, pick off Elephant and Gorilla poachers.

Anyone else need killin?

[Bonobo]

35. Boy am I scared...

:boring:

[DS1]

36. spoken like a true adolescent

[Bonobo]

37. Takes one to know one...

Your turn...

:rofl:

[Coventina]

80. Not that you need it, but I got'cher back DS1!

Under Buddhism, it is acceptable to take extraordinary measures, including killing someone, to keep them from committing horrendous crimes that will doom them to misery in future lives.

Anyone engaged in the killing of animals threatened with extinction goes beyond selfish into the realm of pure evil. The ending of their lives (should it happen) is actually a mercy, keeping them from future karmic misery.

[SaveElmer]

24. Well my understanding...

Is that Sea Shepherd has never caused a death or injury in all of its actions. And has never been convicted of a crime. These whalers are illegally whaling in international waters with no authority holding them to account...the definition of a pirate. The whalers, and the countries sending them out are the ones putting them in danger, not Sea Shepherd.

They are not ramming ships with the intention of sinking them, they are hitting them trying to disable the equipment these ships useto do their illegal work. Until countries begin to take this kind of activity, particularly on the part of the Japanese seriously, I can't say I dissaprove (despite my normal aversion to taking the law into one own hands)

[Pavulon]

26. My concern

Is that ramming ships together is dangerous. especially at speed in the arctic.

The ship ramming is the aggressor.

I approve of the harassment and destruction of property. However actually ramming ships could get people killed.

Piracy is defined under maritime law and this is not in the scope of the law.

They are scumbags and making people aware is good.

[SaveElmer]

32. I agree they need to be careful...

And my understanding is that they take extraordinary measures to protect human life. Unfortunately the whales cannot wait for some unnamed body to come in and protect them. We impose no sanctions on Japan for these actions, there is no international enforcement body willing to take them on, and really they could care less how they are perceived here. We are too economically intertwined with them for anyone in government to actually try and punish them.

Piracy mey be defined in maritime law, and it may be these people do not fit that definition. But their actions do in my opinion.

[saigon68]

58. Dropping Bombs on children usually gets a few Killed

But the Bush Criminals do it for the OIL

[Barrett808]

10. Sea Shepherd donation page here, fully tax deductible:

http://seashepherd.org/donate.html

[MrPrax]

12. Ram Away!!!

Too Bad Greenpeace doesn't start changing it's tactics...

A good ramming will bring the issue to the Media's front burner and put far more pressure on Japan.

Is it just me? Or do other people think that the Japanese have gotten a free pass on the environment over the past few decades...if whaling isn't enough, then the drift net 'cleaning' should have put this guys HIGH on the boycott list.

Amazingly the environmental movement so far has been quite sheepish in invading the comfort zone of thousands and thousands of Japanese who regularly visit North America-(looking at you Aspen and Whistler)-maybe stalking them like a whaling ship and sending them home with a message might work.

[SaveElmer]

13. This goes against what I normally believe....

About taking the law into ones own hands.

But I feel that the Japanese and other Whaling Nations are violating these anti-whaling prohibitions with impunity, and no one is holding them to account. In my mind they are no better than pirates so despite my normal aversion to this kind of behavior, I really see no other alternative.

My understanding (someone correct me if I am wrong), is that Sea Shepherd has never injured or killed anyone in their actions. They generally try and disable the whaling capabilities of these ships by destroying winches etc.

[Barrett808]

14. Sea Shepherd has never injured or killed anyone, also never been convicted

of a felony.

[SaveElmer]

15. Excellent...

Well I have seen interviews with some of the sea shepherd people and I really admire their willingness to put their life on the line for what I think is a worthy goal. I hope they continue to be as careful as they have been....

Donation forthcoming

[saigon68]

44. Don't forget the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor

And killed lots of Americans

Sadaam attacked a few Quislings in 1990 and the Bush Criminals set out to get him

Remember the line.

"He tried to kill my daddy"?

[leftchick]

18. omg I didn't know they were murdering Humpbacks as well!!

:cry:

Thank God for the Sea Shepherd!



Humpback Whale:

(Megaptera novaeangliae)

The humpback whale reaches a maximum length of about 15.6 meters (51 feet) and a maximum weight of about 34 metric tonnes (37.5 tons). In the southern hemisphere its primary food is krill, In the northern hemisphere it eats schooling fish such as anchovies, cod, and sand lance, and capelin. The humpback is one of the most popular whales for whale watching on both the east and west coasts. It is the whale most often photographed leaping out of the water--an activity called breaching. The humpback is also called the "singing whale." A male's song may be as long as half an hour and changes from year to year. Scientists estimate that there are 10,000 humpbacks worldwide--only about eight percent of its estimated initial population.


...WTF is Japan going to do when there are no more whales??

[formercia]

22. The Southern Humpback Whale

A distinct subspecies. Note more white patches on belly and fins:

http://www.oceania.org.au/whales/education/migration/title.html

The Cyclic Migration of the Southern Humpback Whales

[saigon68]

53. Beautiful Creatures

[Barrett808]

64. Humpbacks are on the menu for 2007

Right now, it's minke whales and endangered finback whales that the pirates are slaughtering.

[LeftyMom]

38. Go get 'em!

:yourock: :woohoo:

[Barrett808]

39. Update from Captain Watson:

Sea Shepherd Continues to Pursue Pirate Whalers – No Whales killed for the Last Three Days
Report from Captain Paul Watson

Things are heating up in the cold war to save the whales. New Zealand is sending Air Force Orion aircraft to monitor the situation. Japan is threatening to send something called the “Airborne Police” to protect their outlaw whalers. Politicians are fuming and so-called experts are pontificating. Australian politicians are sitting on the fence conflicted between representing the will of their anti-whaling citizens and their allegiance to their corporate buddies in Tokyo.

Lots of talk, lots of posturing, and lots of opinions.

The bottom line – whales are dying! They are being systematically slaughtered by a highly illegal operation.

The regulations and the moratorium of the International Whaling Commission are being violated. The Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary is being violated. The Antarctic Treaty territory is being violated. The Australian Antarctic Territory is being violated. The rules of the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) are being violated.

This Japanese whaling fleet is a criminal operation, no different than drug traffickers or ivory smugglers. They are despicable poachers.

We are down here because governments are not doing anything to uphold the law against Japanese violations.

When Australian Environment Minister Ian Campbell states that, “Sea Shepherd is setting back the cause of whale conservation ten years,” my response to him was, “Good, ten years ago far fewer whales were killed each year than today. Going back ten years is a positive move.”

When New Zealand Environmental Minister Chris Carter says that Sea Shepherd is acting irresponsibly, my answer to him is we are down here because you have acted irresponsibly in not upholding the laws against Japan.

When Greenpeace criticize us for our tactics our response to them is, “We’re glad you’re down here. We appreciate everything you are doing to expose Japan’s illegal activities. You have our full support. If you disagree with us, we have no problem with that. You are entitled to your opinion. But we are not down here for Greenpeace nor are we down here for people. Our clients are the whales.”

When critics say we are going to far our answer is that for the whales, things have already gone way too far. These whales are being killed, their living flesh torn from their bodies. They are being electrocuted for up to twenty minutes to kill them as their heads are submerged beneath the sea. Imagine the agony of being drowned and electrocuted at the same time as your body pours hot pulsing blood into a cold sea from a gaping wound, and your body is riddled with burning shrapnel from the grenade tipped projectile that exploded with unimaginable pain, shredding your organs yet not killing you.

We have not injured anyone and we have no intention of injuring anyone. I have been disabling whaling ships for decades without causing a single injury so all this holier than thou speculation is boringly distracting.

What part of the word “illegal” do people not understand?

Yes, we risk our lives because whales are worth risking our lives for. Politicians express horror that lives are risked to protect whales as they send young people off to lose their life and get maimed to defend oil wells.

Critics then say we have no right to put Japanese lives at risk. Why not? They are criminals. If they were running drugs or robbing banks, there would be little sympathy for them, yet their crime is even more serious. The killing of an endangered species is a crime against nature and it is a crime against humanity.

Critics are saying that we have violated the so-called “rules of the road.” The Japanese are doing that out here all the time without much comment from the same critics.

If we are committing a crime we should be arrested but no one has accused us of committing a specific crime. We sideswiped a whaling fleet support vessel yet the whalers have rammed two Greenpeace ships and attempted to ram the Farley Mowat. No one is talking about arresting the Japanese whalers for their attacks. Is the law there for only one side?

There is chaos down here, and this chaos is a result of the neglect by governments to uphold the international rule of conservation law.

If these were Indonesian poachers down in these waters, the government of Australia would be all over them. The message they are sending is that wealthy poachers are to be tolerated and poor poachers are to be persecuted.

The stench of hypocrisy is reeking.

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is a voice of honesty in this debate. We are not denying hitting the whalers. That is why we are here. We did not come down to these remote waters to take photographs or to say, “Pretty please, Mr. Whaler, sir, do not kill the whales.”

We came here to demand an end to the killing and to demand that Japanese whalers comply with conservation law. We have no apologies for this position.

There is real violence down here in these waters. Forget about the clang-clang of ship’s hulls against each other. Forget about the minor bruises and soakings from water hoses. Forget about the war of banners and name calling between the Japanese whalers and Greenpeace. This is all trivial stuff.

The violence is the horrific death of sensitive, intelligent, socially complex beings that we human beings have absolutely no right to be killing.

We are down here because of the screams of the whales and believe me they scream. I have heard them – shrill agonizing human-like screams of incredible pain. We are down here because of the blood that is staining the cold seas and is flowing from the drainage pipes of this floating obscenity of an abattoir called the Nisshin Maru. We are down here because we want to stop the flow of blood and the senseless slaughter. We are down here because the Japanese whalers are vicious criminal killers and we must defend their defenseless victims from their cruel harpoons.

If there is a human critic who disagrees with what we are doing our answer to them is we don’t care. We represent the whales not them. Find us one whale that disagrees with our efforts, our tactics or our activism and I promise you I will retire.

For most people, the oceans and the whales are out of sight and out of mind. But not for us. We are here because we deeply care about the lives of these incredible sentient and intelligent beings. We are here because they are being murdered by criminals.

What person among you could stand by and watch a dog being kicked to death and would do nothing? What person among you could stand by and watch a horse whipped to death and would just take pictures. What person among you could witness a kitten tortured and could turn away?

If you are such a person then you are a person of no integrity, no courage, no heart, and no soul – the kind of monster that could pull the trigger and send a deadly harpoon into the back of a fleeing whale.

If you are such a person we could care less what you think for you would be beneath contempt and your opinions undeserving of respect.

So we are either serious about defending whales or we are not.

The barbaric and bloody trade in whale flesh must be abolished and the very idea of killing a whale must be eradicated from the behaviour of humankind.

Human salvation will only be found through compassion and through the courage to act passionately in defense of compassion.

The Japanese whalers must be forced out of the Antarctic Whale Sanctuary and if governments refuse to do so then we as non-governmental organizations and as individuals must do so.

To that end, our Sea Shepherd ship Farley Mowat is moving in on the Japanese fleet. The Nisshin Maru and two harpoon vessels are near Cape Boothby off Kemp land - a day and a half from the Sea Shepherd position. They have resumed whaling activities. The Sea Shepherd ship Farley Mowat is heading towards that position with the objective of "persuading" the Japanese fleet to once again cease and desist from their illegal whaling activities.

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_060111_1.html

[SaveElmer]

40. All arguments I would have trouble refuting...nt

[Bonobo]

42. Inflammatory language and abortion clinic bombing...

Look at he language used below and ask yourself. Do you support the right to bomb abortion clinics too?

"When critics say we are going to far our answer is that for the whales, things have already gone way too far. These whales are being killed, their living flesh torn from their bodies. They are being electrocuted for up to twenty minutes to kill them as their heads are submerged beneath the sea. Imagine the agony of being drowned and electrocuted at the same time as your body pours hot pulsing blood into a cold sea from a gaping wound, and your body is riddled with burning shrapnel from the grenade tipped projectile that exploded with unimaginable pain, shredding your organs yet not killing you."

"The D & E (Dilatation and Evacuation) technique is primarily used on unborn children between the ages of 12 to 17 weeks. Here is how this method is carried out: The cervical ring must somehow be opened and widened, with the usual danger in this activity. Then the surgeon goes up into the womb with forceps and grabs the little infant and tears it out. But the body of the unborn child must first be ripped apart so that it can pass through the cervix. Sometimes the D & Es are performed on unborn children as old as 20 weeks. When they are, then the skulls of the infants must be crushed also, as well as tearing their bodies apart."

[LeftyMom]

43. We all know how to use language to make a point

It doesn't always mean the point is invalid. The anti-choice nutjobs twist science to suit, Sea Shepherd and other conservation groups are pretty good about sticking with the facts.

[One_Life_To_Give]

45. Except that they have a legal permit

We don't have to like it. But the Japanese do have a legal permit to engage in limited whaling. I hear it was the price to get Japan to agree to any limits on whaling.

[LeftyMom]

46. For research purposes

Everybody knows good and well this is just for food. They measure them first so they can act like it's science, but that's not the intent at all.

[One_Life_To_Give]

55. Wasn't that the Wink, Wink, nod when they were offered this

to get them to join the IWC? Why else does the IWC have a requirement that the whales taken for "research" must be used for food?

(They being the Whaling countries)

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

48. Not in the waters they are doing it in...

I believe that is the point

[flvegan]

56. A permit, based on a lie and a whale population

that has scientifically been refuted, yet still put forth by the Japanese "research" group.

[One_Life_To_Give]

57. Legality and Science do not always go together. n/t

[flvegan]

68. Let me rephrase that, then...

Here's my post
"A permit, based on a lie and a whale population that has scientifically been refuted, yet still put forth by the Japanese "research" group."




Moving forward on a track to kill, based on a lie that has been, time and again proven to be a lie, based on bad "research" that again, can't be proven, and has been refuted...

Well shit, Iraq, anyone?

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

73. their ship says "RESEARCH"- they have killed 1000 whales to feed children

Lies--

Greenpeace painted WHALE MEAT onb the side--a truer representation

They are greedy bastards trying to gather up ez meat to sell.

[Zhade]

97. No, they don't.

They're whaling illegally.

[SaveElmer]

47. Not the same....

Abortion clinics are not violating the law...

And there is a controlling legal authority in the United States

[Bonobo]

49. Respectfully, that argument doesn't cut it.

You can't go to the law to refute my argument when it is clearly illegal to ram a ship.

What the two examples have in common is that a group of people feel strongly about something, so they resort to illegal means to get what they want (or stop what they want).If you support their right to vigilanteism, you also excuse abortion clinic bombers (by that logic). Simply because you agree with the actions of one but not the other is not sufficient.

[SaveElmer]

51. Of course they are different...

Hunting whales in these waters is illegal, running an abortion clinic is not. Of course you can say stopping one illegal action by committing another is not acceptable. And that would be true if there was an enforcement body with power to stop illegal whaling. There is not.

There is a controlling legal authority in the United States, which is why vigilanteism is not acceptable in the case you mention.

There is no one enforcing the laws against illegal whaling, and no country willing to sanction countries doing it. Sea Shepherd is disabling the whaling capability of these ships in absence of any enforcement of the law. Until countries show a willingness to enforce the law, the whales should be protected. Japanese ships are putting themselves in harms way by illegally hunting whales.


Is this the preferred method - no it is not. What realistic alternative would you suggest?

[JackieO]

65. Thanks

Captain Watson makes himself very clear.

I don't have many heroes, but he's right up there.

[Zhade]

95. After consideration, I've concluded that this org is worthy of admiration.

They are in the right, and I support them.

[Clara T]

70. Our children's children will thank Paul Watson

Paul Watson is a living legend.
All the beautiful creatures of the planet are under assault and
If there is any shred of a chance of survival on this globe it will be due to people like Paul Watson not the enviro-crats.

[crowcalling]

71. I've been following this..

and made a donation as soon as I heard.

There is so much killing and desecration going on, I live vicariously through their actions.

[samhsarah]

72. thanks n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

75. Oh no. Not another thread on this enviro-terrorist group.

Risking life/violence sort of shifts the discussion from your cause (which may be noble) to your tactics, which are nothing short of terroristic.

Activists 'may put lives at risk'
snip
Sea Shepherd's stated aim of dragging a hawser under the Japanese ship to disable its propellers could rip the drive shafts from the ship and leave a gaping hole under its waterline.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17787550%255E2702,00.html

Not to mention the "can opener" which looks like it could make a hole in a ship. They admitted to purposely sideswiping the Japanese ship with it the other day.

:thumbsdown:

[LeftyMom]

76. enviro-terrorist?

:rofl:

[SaveElmer]

81. Respectfully...it is the Whalers that are enviro-terrorists

Hunting Whales illagally and with impunity. No better than poachers in my opinion. And though they may not meet the legal maritime definition of Pirates...that is what they are

[Harper_is_Bush]

94. It is lot illegal. Immoral, perhaps, but not illegal from what I've heard

And even if it WAS illegal, that would not condone jepordizing human life as they are.

[flvegan]

99. From what you've heard?

Where'd you hear it from, btw?

[Harper_is_Bush]

105. All of the media reports on the situation thus far.

Where do you get your information from?

If you rely on Capitano Watson only, then I can understand you thinking it's illegal. He puts out "press releases" all the time.

[flvegan]

111. I've got a media report right here, that says

George W. Bush is praising the recovery in the gulf after Katrina. Wow, didn't know it was going so well.

Here's a link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181417,00.html

Guess it's true.

[Harper_is_Bush]

128. Very nice.

If you find a relevant media report let us know.

:eyes:

[flvegan]

131. I'd suggest the same of you.

You're the one putting it out there. Post it if you've got it.

There you go. The be all, end all suggestion. Post your sources and info and back your shit up, or get to jumping on the next turnip truck you can fall off of.

[Harper_is_Bush]

132. You want the media reports that don't say the Japanese whaling is illegal?

Cause that's all I've found so far.

You've got it BACKWARDS flvegan, it's you who is making a claim. Are we to assume all acts are illegal until we provide proof of otherwise? Of course not.

I've seen several mainstream media stories on this event (the confrontation) - some of which talk about the reasoning given by the Japanese to be whaling there - and NONE of them mention anything about any nation declaring the Japanese acts illegal.

They may be wrong. They may be immoral. But until someone with some real authority (no, no Captain Watson!) says they are illegal it's hardly credible to say they are.

So then flavegan, I guess we can go back and forth like this all night...you saying "it's illegal, prove it's not!" and me continuing to patiently point out the simple fact that your assertions are not mine to prove. Why bother?

[flvegan]

133. Then post them, or shut up.

I've posted statments showing the illegality of it, based on experts in the field. You've posted nothing.

That's it. That's all. And you, you don't have it. You've got nothing but governmental bullshit and crap "research" from the funding groups to back it.

Wallow in it. So again, post them, or shut up.

[Harper_is_Bush]

137. Excuse me, you have not posted anything showing the illegality

of the Japanese whaling.

And kindly do not tell me to "shut up", thanks.

[flvegan]

139. Then back it up. Post it. Go on, do it. Show us all.

Someone's getting "emotional"

[Zhade]

100. No, it's explicitly illegal. Your observations are misinformed.

This is illegal whaling.

As far as not condoning it, I believe Sea Shepherd really doesn't care about your opinion on the matter. I respect your right to your opinion, but heartily disagree with your conclusions.

[Harper_is_Bush]

106. Please alleviate my ignorance with a link. If you cannot...

I'll assume you're making that determination based soley on the assertion of Sea Shepherd.

[flvegan]

109. A link?

Tell you what, howsabout you study all the CITES agreements, then avail yourself of the treaties between the various countries that should "govern" these Antarctic waters, then look into the corruption in the Japanese "research" entity, then post your dissertation based in fact.

I take the word of numerous organizations that say this is illegal, most of whom have years of experience of involvement in this topic, and/or whom have more experience on the sea than admirals in most respective naval wings of the military.

Disprove it, poster.

[Harper_is_Bush]

113. If the Japanese actions were actually illegal, it would be exposed

by the media. That is my proof.

Or is ALL the international media that has covered this story in some kind of conspiracy to hide the truth?

I think the onus is on you to provide some proof.

thx.

[flvegan]

115. In other words, "I don't have one."

Nice work.

Oh, hey...is this the same media that daily exposes the illegality of the war in Iraq?

[Harper_is_Bush]

119. You are confused. It is you who makes the claim of illegality.

All I am able to do is point out that of the various mainstream press reports about this situation none have said that the Japanese actions are illegal.

You seem to think the various international media sources are involved in a conspiracy to hide the illegality of the Japanese actions.

:rofl:

BTW, I have seen the illegality of the Iraq war discussed in the mainstream media. You are batting 0 on this.

[flvegan]

129. None?

Check something OTHER than Foxnews...

[SaveElmer]

122. They don't particularly care...

The Japanese have been illegally whaling for many years...it is very rarely reported in the MSM.

[Zhade]

123. Here's something, looking for more (I'm at work)...

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/save-our-seas-2/save-the-whales/norwegian-whaling (unless you consider GreenPeace an 'ecoterrorist organization')

The Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) currently lists all the great whales on its Appendix I, under which the international trade in whale products is prohibited. Japan and Norway are both lobbying aggressively, to downlist whales from Appendix I to Appendix II, thereby reopening trade.

In early 2001, the Norwegian government announced that it would allow the export of whale meat and blubber to Japan, even though such trade is prohibited under CITES. A spokesperson for the whalers public relations arm described the decision as 'the final victory'. Greenpeace has documented tons of frozen blubber, each block carefully wrapped and labelled in Japanese, stored in Norwegian industrial freezers, waiting for export.


Okay, so that just proves that Japan buys illegal whale meat. But wait...

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=24709

"Under JARPA II, Japan is to more than double the number of whales it kills. Those whales will be killed inside the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, and well outside Japan's own territorial waters. For any nation to contemplate this kind of programme, it should at the very least have a robust scientific justification. Japan does not."

(That's from the NZ government.)

There is NO dispute that these whaling ships are operating inside the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary, which is of course illegal.

So, there you go. What I said stands: you were misinformed. Now you're not.

[Harper_is_Bush]

126. Allow me to point out a couple of facts with your links...

thankyou for providing them, btw.

The first one regarding CITES speaks of trade in whale meat. International trade.
The example given was whale meat in Norway destined for Japan.
This obviously does not fall under that category, thus you do not prove the illegality with that link.

The second link is the comments of a NZ conservation Minister expressing his opinion about what Japan is doing in the whale sanctuary. Again, this does not prove illegality.

Illegality would mean that a nation or law-enforcement agency thereof would declare the hunt to be against that nations law.

You are right, I am not misinformed.

The point is, I have not been informed by anyone (except a few posters here and the Sea Shepherd) that the Japanese are doing something illegal.

And as I've demonstrated elsewhere in this topic, Sea Shepherd cannot always be trusted to tell the truth.

[Zhade]

149. You did not demonstrate that conclusion.

And note that I SAID in my post that the first link was about the trade in illegal whale meat.

It is indisputable that whaling in the South Ocean is illegal, and that these Japanese whalers are whaling there, ergo they are whaling illegally.

To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest, as well as bewildering, since it's not debatable. At all. They are whaling where it is forbidden to whale.

[Harper_is_Bush]

150. I most certainly did! Once again...

it is here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2034418&mesg_id=2038261

This is absolutely a demonstration that Sea Shepherd lies.

It has not been countered on it's merits, only challanged because it's a link to another post...as if that means anything.
It is undeniably supported by links. Sea Shepherd, in spite of the good work it does, is not above lying to forward it's agenda.

[SaveElmer]

120. The Whalers are jeapordizing themselves...

They are poaching whales where they shouldn't be. There is no one else holding them to account. In the numerous actions sea shepherd has taken, not one injury has occurred.

[Barrett808]

82. Make your fully tax-deductible donation here:

http://seashepherd.org/donate.html

[Harper_is_Bush]

92. That's starting to look like what they're all about, for sure...

donate donate donate.

Heck, you can even donate a ship or vehicle to them!

I'm sure they do lots of good work, but they bullshit lots about the Candian seal hunt strictly because it's worth millions in donations to them every year. Respect for an organization like that sorta goes...poof.

[Barrett808]

104. What about the SCCS stance on the seal hunt is bullshit?

It's very well documented -- iirc, the authorized take last year was the largest ever, at 350,000 pups. But with SSCS and the storms, the seal clubbers came up short.

[Harper_is_Bush]

108. What about it isn't bullshit?

They're proven liars, and this is something they utilize to swell thier coffers so they can do other shit, like chase down Japanese boats with can openers and stuff.

[Zhade]

114. Link?

To the proof that they're liars?

[Harper_is_Bush]

124. Here are the details that prove Captain Watson and Sea Shepherd lie:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2029763&mesg_id=2031986

[Zhade]

125. You use a link to your own flawed interpretations?

THAT'S your evidence?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Harper_is_Bush]

127. Hardly my own interpretations.

It is sound logic, backed up with links.

Is casual dismissal and multiple smilies something you do when your unhappy with some unwanted truth exposed?

[flvegan]

136. Post them, or shut up.

How many times do I have to say this?

[Harper_is_Bush]

140. Not to much more, I'm guessing.

[flvegan]

142. Still waiting...got any? Any at all?

Deleted posts don't bother me, if that's what you're getting at.

I don't look the fool, but, um, another poster might.

[Harper_is_Bush]

152. Yes. Posted in this thread...link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2034418&mesg_id=2038409

[Zhade]

143. I'd be fine, even if you'd actually exposed some uncomfortable truths.

NT!

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

84. Enviro-Terrorists=those who Terrorize the ENVIRONMENT= illegal Whale kill

Be sure and understand the difference between those who would protect the earth and its wildlife
and those who would exploit the earth and its environment for financial gains.

"Terrorist" is a typical Right Wing term-
They use the term freely (ADDING IT TO any term they see fit such as "ECO" or "EVIRO")
in an effort to "CRIMINALIZE" those who oppose their greedy agenda-

Don't be fooled by these tactics.
BUT,... on the other hand, if you support corporate interests over the better interest of the wildlife,
the environment, and the citizens, and if you're aligned with defending corporate interests yourself,
if you do...I do say IF..,
could you please avoid resorting to such low-end labeling to make your point!
-most of us are aware of the motives of those who resort to using the ever so cliche "terror" word and most of us understand and recognize these ignorant tactics .

Interfering with these poachers is not only legal but is applauded by those who care about the planet!


.

[Harper_is_Bush]

93. "Terrorist" is a rightwing term?

Just because Bush used it to get elected and is accusing insurgents of being terrorists, you're given the word over to them completely?

That's sad.

I call "Captain" Watson and his band of high Seas vigilantes "terrorists" because I'm sure the people on those whaling boats are terrified by these life-threatening tactics they employ.

clear?

[flvegan]

96. Amusing.

Terrified = "terrorists" is what you're saying? From what I've seen, from the video and pics released by both sides, they don't appear to be terribly afraid. Maybe you have different pics/video of cowering, scared Japanese whalers you'd like to show us.

Go ahead, I'll wait...

I'm sure lots of criminals are terrified of the police, justice and those that would keep them from committing more crimes. I guess Good Samaritans, in some cases, are terrorists, now.

BTW, "enviro-terrorist" IS a right wing term.

What's sad is the inability for folks to see certain things for what they are, and they buy into their own government's propaganda about it. The seal hunt comes to mind. Don't know why...

*snort*

[Harper_is_Bush]

103. You find the very real danger to human life "amusing".

To be polite, I'll answer your question.

You asked "Terrified = 'terrorists' is that what you're saying?"
No, that's not it. I'm not sure what that means, but I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm saying.

People get terrified when they feel thier life is in danger. A group that performs acts on purpose that no doubt are making the victims feel as if thier lives are in danger is a terrorist group...especially if they're doing it to get a political result.

Don't get bug-eyed over chimps war on terror. He doesn't own the word.

[flvegan]

107. Spin it, baby!

I find danger to ANY life unamusing. That would be one of the differences between myself and, um, other posters. *cough* ahem.

Let me know when you get the transcripts from the direct communications of the whalers where they state that they feel that their lives are in danger. Political result...THAT is amusing.

Then, maybe, I (and others) will listen to this crap.

Don't you get bug-eyed over supporting your own crooked govt, whom you choose to quote and take facts from implicitly.

[Harper_is_Bush]

110. Flvegan, all you ever do with this group and this issue..

is engage in ad hominem.

You doubt that the whalers might have been fearful for thier lives. Yet you've seen the "can opener", read the admission by Sea Shepherd that they PURPOSELY sideswipped the Japanese boat with this "can opener", and you've read the article saying how the effort to tangle wire in the Japanese prop could rip out the drive shaft and leave a hole below the waterline.

I would be VERY afraid if this enviro-terrorist group was attacking a boat I was on.

You expect anyone to believe you wouldn't? :eyes:

[flvegan]

112. Pot, meet kettle.

At least I add something valid, rather than spewing opinion.

Aren't there seals to be clubbed? That gets backing, too, poster.

BTW, I wouldn't be afraid, as I'd not be out there breaking the law, both written and moral.

[Harper_is_Bush]

116. That was a valid hypothetical question that demonstrated the flaw in your

earlier claim that the Japanese wouldn't feel fear.

YOu not being able to provide an honest answer sort of betrayed the truth.

thx.

[flvegan]

118. No it didn't. But, so long as YOU are convinced

that's all that matters, right?

When you're on that boat, the speculation ends. Until then...

[Harper_is_Bush]

121. I know you are but what am I?

flvegan, I do my best to debate you in good faith. It's got to be a two-way street once in a while though.

[flvegan]

130. Attacking the poster, not discussing the topic.

What is that again?

Debating "in good faith" is something oft believed by some posters, but not understood by some of them.

Was there something that the poster had to add to this, or was this it?

[Harper_is_Bush]

134. Oh yes, I'm "attacking" you.

You are combative. I have been factual and patient.

But YOU'RE the victim now?


Let me give you some advice. In this exchange, all you had to do was say thus:
"Perhaps no nations legal mechanisms have declared the Japanese whaling illegal, but many people believe it is."
Something like that would have been deserving of respect and further debate. Hell, I might have even gone looking for links to support your illegality claims!
No, instead you had to oppose my simple and factual point that the indication of illegality was not made in any of the various international press reports.

Instead of debating this in good faith, you twice brought up examples of thinks in the press you feel are indicitive of a bad press. Calling that bad faith debate is not a personal attack, so dry your eyes.

[flvegan]

135. Post your sources or shut up.

[Harper_is_Bush]

138. I am not required to post sources in this exchange to come out vindicated

you are.

And again, kindly to not tell me to "shut up". Thanks.

[flvegan]

141. Translated: I'm not required, cuz I got NONE.

Just helping. Thank me later.

[Harper_is_Bush]

147. Once more, no indication of illegality has been made in the media...

But, here's a link so you cannot claim I have not provided any.
This one is actually quite favorable to the anti-whaling cause, and contains some news you'll enjoy.
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-01-12T072554Z_01_KNE226734_RTRUKOC_0_UK-ENVIRONMENT-WHALING-PROTEST.xml&archived=False

Note; however, that nowhere does it indicate that what Japan is doing is illegal.

Do you have a mainstream media source that indicates the Japanese whaling is illegal?

thx.

[LeftyMom]

98. Don't terrorists have to kill people?

SSCS certainly hasn't killed anyone. For that matter, nobody acting on behalf of any AR or enviornmental organization ever has. That's intentional and highly unlikely to change.

Some terrorists. :eyes:

[Harper_is_Bush]

144. No, I don't think so.

To use the more traditionally thought of bombing technique of terrorism, if a person exploded a bomb and it didn't kill anyone, would that mean they're not a terrorist?

As to your statement that SSCS not killing anyone is "highly unlikely to change" I'd like to know what you base that on, given that fact that they're sideswiping boats on the open Seas AND draging cable underneath ships which could rip out a drivetrain and leave a hole below the waterline?

[LeftyMom]

146. Because I read enough AR literature

(including after-action stuff) to know that great pains are taken to avoid injury and loss of life (and I'm definitely including SSCS in that.) Even if a whaling ship is actually sunk at sea by SSCS- a difficult thing to do, absent military weaponry, as ships are designed with many redundancies precisely to prevent precisely that- there's no reason to believe the crew could not abandon ship safely. Certainly they're aware that sinking is a possibility, both because the area is dangerous and because SSCS has provided ample warning.

When I'm not here I mod a board with a shitload of people active in the AR community on it. If there was any whisper of a change in the traditional respect for human life in that community, I'd hear about it in a minute. No such ideological shift has occured.

[Harper_is_Bush]

148. Captain Watson has announced an increase in the stakes

and that's what we're seeing here.

Perhaps the literature hasn't been updated yet.

[LeftyMom]

151. Dude, you're out of your league.

Go argue with somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about, because you're wasting my time.

SSCS has sunk ships without injuries before and they'll likely do it again.

[Zhade]

101. Criminals are usually terrified of being caught or held accountable, yes.

These whalers are engaging in criminal whaling, so if they're worried about being sunk, maybe they should cease their poaching in international waters, eh?

[Harper_is_Bush]

145. As you can see, the legality of the whaling is being debated..

and I've pointed out that none of the various international media sources that have covered this situation make any mention of any illegality declared by any nations laws.

And I submit the fear the people on that boat feel comes from the violent acts being perpetrated upon them by the Sea Shepherd people. That shouldn't be hard to accept. I don't know why it's being debated actually.

[Barrett808]

83. Japan says clashes at sea could reduce whale catch

Japan says clashes at sea could reduce whale catch
Thu 12 Jan 2006 12:04 AM ET

TOKYO, Jan 12 (Reuters) - Clashes at sea with two environmental groups will not bring Japan's whaling programme to a halt but could reduce the size of the catch, a senior official at the Fisheries Ministry said on Thursday.

The confrontations with Greenpeace and the more militant group Sea Shepherd, which have led to at least two collisions in remote Antarctic waters in recent weeks, could mean Japan catches fewer whales than it had planned for the season, Hideki Moronuki, head of the whaling section at the ministry, said.

Two Greenpeace ships set off from Cape Town in November to pursue and disrupt the Japanese whalers, sometimes deploying inflatable boats between the whales and harpoon guns.

Sea Shepherd has also been pursuing the whaling fleet.

"If the harassment continues there may be some effect," Moronuki said.

"But I want to make it quite clear that Japan will not cancel its research, whatever dangerous activities or interference may occur," Moronuki added.

(more)

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=T98131

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

85. RESEARCH??? as if we don't know the difference between MEAT selling and

and science?
The Japanese "Ministry" is aware that we are aware that the goal of the Whale killing is to sell Whale meat-
(much of it used for feeding Japanese School Children)-
---The goal of their Whaling is to gather meat---to be sold for profit-
and yet they STILL claim it's research?

Wha?
maybe Marketing research?

That word "research" must be clearly defined in the international agreements they are breaking.

They really DO take us for fools--

And fools we are NOT !!!

[flvegan]

88. Latest SSCS Update...January 11th

To paraphrase, Capt. Paul Watson says those that are critical of the tactics of the SSCS can all simply fuck off.

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_060111_1.html

"When critics say we are going to far our answer is that for the whales, things have already gone way too far. These whales are being killed, their living flesh torn from their bodies. They are being electrocuted for up to twenty minutes to kill them as their heads are submerged beneath the sea. Imagine the agony of being drowned and electrocuted at the same time as your body pours hot pulsing blood into a cold sea from a gaping wound, and your body is riddled with burning shrapnel from the grenade tipped projectile that exploded with unimaginable pain, shredding your organs yet not killing you."

"For most people, the oceans and the whales are out of sight and out of mind. But not for us. We are here because we deeply care about the lives of these incredible sentient and intelligent beings. We are here because they are being murdered by criminals.

What person among you could stand by and watch a dog being kicked to death and would do nothing? What person among you could stand by and watch a horse whipped to death and would just take pictures. What person among you could witness a kitten tortured and could turn away?

If you are such a person then you are a person of no integrity, no courage, no heart, and no soul – the kind of monster that could pull the trigger and send a deadly harpoon into the back of a fleeing whale."

More at the above link.

Let's have another look at the sideswipe of The Oriental Bluebird by The Farley Mowat...



Beautiful.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

89. He speaks with LOVE and Compassion- EVERYONE should read his words n/t

[Zhade]

102. I agree, anyone defending the criminal whalers can fuck right off.

They're defending illegal, reprehensible activities.

I mean, endangered species, hello?

[jefferson_dem]

153. Locking.

Discussion has ceased to be constructive.