Stakes raised in whaling clash

[Harper_is_Bush]

Stakes raised in whaling clash
By Paul Osborne
15jan06

A GREENPEACE activist was thrown overboard when a Japanese whale harpoon was launched across an inflatable boat in the Antarctic seas yesterday.

The incident has forced Greenpeace to rethink their human shield style protest against Japanese scientific whaling in the Southern Ocean.

The Japanese says Greenpeace is taking the risks for the sake of public relations.

A harpoon from Japanese whaling vessel Yushin Maru No.2 was fired directly over the Zodiac inflatable boat, which was shadowing a minke whale in Antarctic seas.

Greenpeace chief executive Steve Shallhorn said the harpoon had flown within a metre of the inflatable.

"Greenpeace had been doing what it has been doing for three weeks – putting out inflatables between whales and harpoons," he said.

"The harpoon impacted on the whale but the towing rope got caught on our boat.

"And as the whale began to sink it put our boat in jeopardy.

"The rope got taut and threw one of our people into the ocean."

Canadian activist Texas Joe Constantine, the second mate on the Greenpeace ship Arctic Sunrise, struggled in the water for a short time before getting back into the boat.

"He may have swallowed some seawater and whale blubber but he is all right," Mr Shallhorn said.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17830173%255E1702,00.html

The guy swallowed some whale blubber?

Check this pic:
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,5096964,00.jpg
Description: Tangled ... a Greenpeace boat is caught in the rope / AAP
Don't look all that tangled to me. Looks like the rope is just laying accross the boat.

[phusion]

1. Japanese "scientific" whaling????

what the fuck is that? Aren't the Japanese illegally killing these whales?

[Kagemusha]

2. As a matter of fact, no, it is not illegal.

However, charges that the Japanese basically bought off nations at the body governing whaling worldwide are not inaccurate. This is not to say that the Japanese were disingenuous; though many do indeed say so, most of the whales being killed here are far from endangered. Opposition to killing those whales is a matter of what activists think the law should be, not what it is.

The whales will be used for food. That is inarguable. However, they may (and I have no idea how true this is at all...) provide scientific data enroute to the dinner table. Obviously a lot of people think killing them is wrong, regardless of scientific research. And many of those firmly believe that the science part is simply a politically correct excuse to kill whales for food.

However, it is an exemption to a general ban. Exemption. This means it is legal.

[Karmakaze]

5. And the Japanese don't even want to eat it...

I read that 20% of last season's catch had to be put in long-term storage. So what do the whalers do? Double the catch of course!

Disgusting. The sooner one of these whalers is sunk, the better.

[Harper_is_Bush]

7. Kudos for a truely fair and bananced anaysis.

I have discussed this issue with posters in other topics and made the simple point that regardless of questions of morality, the Japanese hunt is not illegal.

Prepare to get flamed, that's my guess.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

12. killing in protected waters-Japanese violating international agreements

Sorry,
as a matter of "FACT"
You are wrong-

This is not a mater of "what activists think the law should be" -
the research loophole is a load of crap and you know it.
It's a greedy corporation out to gather whale meat to be sold for PROFIT.

please define "ACTIVIST"-
and
"The whales being killed here are far from endangered"
WTF?
It's PROTECTED WATERS !!!! =no Whale killing

Simple

[phusion]

18. This is my understanding of it too

And the reason why the other ship went after one of these Japanese ships w/ a "can opener" last week.

[Kagemusha]

20. I said, there is an exemption. Crap or not, it is quite legal.

Or put more bluntly, just because you think the law is an ass on this issue does not make it the law any less.

And to put this even more bluntly, I don't give a damn about defining activist. I don't post on DU to play games or to "win" or anything of the sort. As a matter of fact, I am right, because I am limiting myself to the issue I replied to. I've said in past threads I don't sympathize at all with the practice of whaling. But jumping up and down and saying it is illegal will not make it so.

Because they have an exemption from the controlling legal authority. Case closed.

[wordpix2]

30. legal to take whales for research but 900 minke whales? don't tell me

that's for research. Japan is illegally hunting whales!

[Harper_is_Bush]

36. No, they are not "illegally" hunting whales.

How hard is it to understand that you and I cannot declare something "illegal" just because we don't like it?

The governing bodies have given permission. Therefore it is NOT illegal at this time.

[ShadesOfGrey]

37. And Greenpeace is not illegally shadowing the whales. n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

45. Agreed.

Nobody is doing anything illegal. Other than perhaps Sea Shepherd...purposely ramming a boat with a "can opener" and trying to get a cable tangled in it's prop is illegal I'd guess.

[napi21]

3. A post about this Greenpeace adventure was on DU yesterday.

I said it then, and I'll repost it now...Greenpeace really isn't the brightest group around!

They do some very dumb things! Maybe for the right reasons, but dumb none the less.

My son was stationed on the Nimits carrier and Greenpeace was protesting the military for some reason or another. They had this little boat criss-crossing the bow of the Nimitz, and yelling for the ship to turn around and go home. I understand this went on for one whole day, and the Captain of the Nimitz announced to this little speck in the ocean that the Nimitz was going to proceed and they better get out of the way! The Greenpeace folks finally decided they really didn't have a chance and turned around and left. Now, I don't recall what their protest was, but even minimal intelligence should have told them this was a really dumb thing to do!

[Karmakaze]

6. Yeah and what kind of idiot would stand in front of a tank?

So stupid. :eyes:

[napi21]

8. Same mentality, I suspect!

These folks don't understand that the tank & the ship are going to continue their mission. If you are warned and choose to ignore the warning, bye bye!

[LeftyMom]

13. I seem to recall those tanks stopped.

Bravery and potential self-sacrifice for a good cause is a beautiful thing.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

16. WHA? Might makes Right? Is there ever a time to stand up? WIMPS are Weak

And if we allow those with "power" to dictate unopposed, then we deserve whatever we get.
And if we allow greedy profiteers and exploiters of natural resources to go unchecked and unopposed then we may as well kiss our asses goodbye because there will be little left in a very short time-
Look at Africa's endagered list! look at South America"s!
Look at what humans have done to this environment in the past 2 or 3 decades!

READ my SIGNATURE LINE -Harry Truman speaks about the voice of opposition!!!!

[Zhade]

54. The post you replied to is disturbingly common.

I'm always stunned to see how many people here actually think that way.

:scared:

[tn-guy]

46. not just dumb, illegal

The "rules of the road" are pretty easily understood. One of them is that the more maneuverable vessel has an obligation to avoid the less maneuverable. Between a zodiac boat and an aircraft carrier, which would you think was the more maneuverable?

[rumpel]

4. Norway and Japan have an exemption for "scientific" purposes, but

it is widely known that in Japan whale meat is a high prized gourmet dish, and the likelyhood of those science projects end up at the Tsukiji fish market. It's a ruse.

[Harper_is_Bush]

10. It's understood that the whale meat is sold in Japan...

I don't think that fact is denied.

Surely some scientific work is happening, but I doubt they need to kill that many whales to get the same results. I agree, it probably is a ruse.

[xchrom]

21. actually they keep the prices to the consumer low.

the japanese government underwrites these ''scientific'' killing expeditions -- it bribes the international body regulating whaling -- it offers whale meat to schools for free so that they can create a future market etc.

the japanese are being extraodinarilly methodical about bringing whaling back into mainstream acceptability.

[Harper_is_Bush]

29. Those are interesting actions by the Japanese government...

any idea where could I find more information about that? Is it detailed on the net anyplace?

[Kagemusha]

35. You see, I understand that's exactly what they're doing.

And it is methodical. And it is something that most environmentally minded people do not support. And none of that makes the whaling illegal, this time.

I mean, not that I want to get in a catfight over this particular shade of the issue but, no one's presented to me anything that makes me think that the Japanese aren't attempting to fish exactly as many whales as the international body governing whaling has allowed them. People say "900 whales" of one type (the type that supposedly has 800,000 worldwide?) is way too much for research and it's a pile of crap. But I would be profoundly shocked if 900 and change isn't exactly what the Japanese have been allowed, however corrupt and misguided people consider the decision to MAKE THE HUNT OF THIS # OF WHALES LEGAL.

The point is, once they're done, they're done. This exemption is one time only until the next international political fight over it. They can't just come back later and go for another 900. You don't like it? Great. I'm not thrilled by it myself. Lobby the damned international body.

This "research" hunt is not illegal. If you don't like it, MAKE IT ILLEGAL. The legitimate way.

Not through bombs.

Not through bullets.

Through political pressure.

That is the only legitimate solution.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

9. toHarper is Bush:the last Sea Shepherd Thread-you supported Whaler Killers

Do you support the efforts of Greenpeace?
Do you support any efforts toward defending our environment?
JSYK: Progressives typically don't have a problem with supporting efforts to protect our environment and natural resources from those who would exploit.
Do you realize exactly what's involved in Whale killing?
for ex:Are you aware of the grenades exploded in their bodies?
..........Are you aware of the painful 20 minute "Electrocution" that still doesn't kill them?
..........Are you aware of the ripping apart of their bodies while they're still alive?

If I may I ask, where do you stand and why?
:shrug:

[Harper_is_Bush]

11. I don't understand your post...

I did not "support whale killers" in a previous thread. That's an unfounded attack on me.

That is no different than people calling critisism of Bush "support for terrorists".

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Harper_is_Bush]

15. I take exception to Sea Shepherd violence and lying...

that's all

the lying is documented here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2029763&mesg_id=2031986
the violence has been recently documented.

And AGAIN, to critisize one group does not translate into "siding" with all the enemies of that group.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

17. answer the question-where do you stand and why- n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Harper_is_Bush]

28. You advocate killing the Japanese then.

You may use the term "Japanese", it's not banned.

Give the people you would hope to see killed at least an honest identification.

[wordpix2]

31. Japanese whalers must understand if they're hunting whales illegally, they

are at risk in a battle to protect endangered/threatened species ---and they could be killed if their illegal ship is sunk.

Is this so much different than any criminal activity where a criminal could be killed by a policeman acting in the line of duty?

[Harper_is_Bush]

33. They are not hunting whales illegally.

If you wish to see it explained read these posts above:

"As a matter of fact, no, it is not illegal."
and/or
"I said, there is an exemption. Crap or not it is quite legal."

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

55. Depends on who you believe/listen to. Bush supporters would have

you believe that wiretapping was legal, too.

Slippery slope, there...

[Harper_is_Bush]

56. It's not as grey an area as you seem to think.

There are laws that indicate the wiretapping that has occurred is illegal.

There are no laws that indicate the Japanese whaling in question here is illegal.

See the post by Kagemusha "As a matter of fact, no, it is not illegal." above.
and the post (also by Kagemusha) "I said, there is an exemption. Crap or not, it is quite legal."

I'm not sure why the debate about it continues. Please respond to those posts if you know of something that demonstrates the illegality of the whaling.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

58. Well, the war in Iraq isn't "illegal" either

Good company to be in, poster. Enjoy it.

[Ben Ceremos]

19. In political debates

it does. You are certainly perceived to support the illegal Japanese whalers. You are wrong in this and you should learn more by doing intensive research as to the law and the way the Japanese are violating the ban on whaling. Life is worthy of protection, whales are worthy of protection and criminals need to be opposed! Bravo Greenpeace and Sea Shepherds!

[Harper_is_Bush]

27. How I'm falsley perceived is irrelavent.

My opinion expressed centers on the dangerous actions against the Japanese, which I label terrorist in nature.

Do we condone gang violence just because it might be directed towards a law breaker? Hopefully not, in a law and order society.

Can the killing of an abortion doctor be condoned if the killer truely believes that the doctor is breaking the law?

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

51. it's just a matter of time

I'm really gonna love it too!

[xchrom]

22. stop all whaling period.

it's barbaric.

[livvy]

23. My sentiments exactly. Thank you! n/t

[leftchick]

24. Seeing that blood in the water is horrible

boycot everything Japanese!

:cry:



Minke Whale

[xchrom]

25. they have such beautiful bodies, don't they?

and yes that blood in the water is nothing short of horrifying.

[wordpix2]

32. I agree. Whales have enough problems with ocean pollution, sonar @ ships

ripping them to bits, they don't need hunting on top of it all.

[rustydad]

34. You should

go to the Greenpeace web site and watch the video of this incident. After the whale was harpooned the rope over the inflatable became very taught ans clearly swept the activist into the sea. It could have upended the boat as well. There is another clip of the same japanese whaler ramming the bow of the Greenpeace ship, clearly on purpose and clearly illegal. It smashed in the bow quite a bit. The Japanese clearly take the environment seriously on their home islands. But when it comes to the Commons of the Ocean they play a very different game. It is truly a shame and a sham. Bob

[Harper_is_Bush]

39. I've seen that video...

Is this the one you're referring to:
http://tvyil.greenpeaceweb.org/default.asp?loadfilm=56&loadcat=10

It does not show the person swept into Sea at all. What it does show is the greenpeace inflatable with a rope laying accross it making no attempt to get out of the situation.

Greenpeace has a policy of putting itself between the whalers and the whales. Apparently they'd been trying to protect this particular whale for quite a while, and it looks like they were a little too late in this case. You can see they were speeding into position, but the shot was already fired.
This picture shows that the shot was a clear one, more than just a meter over thier heads as Greenpeace complainted.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/15/greenpeace_wideweb__470x357,2.jpg

[flvegan]

47. So then, firing an explosive harpoon, capable of killing a whale

1 meter over the heads of other people is okay, and the Greenpeace folks are really just getting their panties in a bunch? Did I get that right?

Eh, what's truly sick is the ongoing justification and rah-rah-ing of cruel, illegal activities by certain people. But then, some of them also justify the clubbing of seals and other idiotic and reprehensible behaviors.

[Harper_is_Bush]

48. I have watched the video many times and looked closely at the picture..

it certainly seems that the harpoon passed at least 10 - 15 feet over the heads of the greenpeace folks.
1 meter is less than 4 feet.

I'm sure you're interested in accuracy and will take a look. It's an emotional subject, so the truth is all the more important.

[flvegan]

52. How high are the waves?

I mean, it's not like they're not rolling and all...

[Harper_is_Bush]

59. Take a look at the video yourself, here:

http://tvyil.greenpeaceweb.org/default.asp?loadfilm=56&loadcat=10

It appears the waves are minimal, and the harpoon is over 10 feet above them.

Something else that's interesting....the closeup of the greenpeace inflatable with the rope overtop of it that occurs just before it dissappears from view seems to show a greenpeace person moving the rope so it stays overtop of them rather than picking it up to throw it off. Strange.

[flvegan]

61. Then you'd be okay with an officer shooting a gun

what, proportionately, 3 or 4 feet past your child's head, right?

Yes, strange indeed. When you have something better, more convincing, you'll bring it 'round, eh?

[LeftyMom]

62. Frankly, that low res video doesn't make much clear.

Shooting right over the top of a fast moving boat like that is dangerous, no matter how high the shot was (and it's hard to tell scale over the water, I think you're seeing what you want to see there.)

[Harper_is_Bush]

65. I don't "want to see" anything. I look and report the truth.

I've watched the video with a critical eye a dozen...looking at those things that provide proportion (such as the inflatable itself) and paying careful attention to the trail of the harpoon.

It seems obvious to me that the shot was over 10 feet above the heads of those in the inflatable.

When the shot happens, imagine placing the inflatable in a verticle position. The inflatable would fill the gap between the ocean and the harpoon trail. How long are those inflatables...16 feet or more.

[LeftyMom]

67. It's low res video.

You're interpreting details that aren't there, because it's badly pixelated.

[Harper_is_Bush]

68. I don't get any pixels....it's perfectly clear when I run it.

And pausing the video at the point of the shot clearly shows the smoke/rope trail of the harpoon.

That clearly shows a gap between the heads of those in the boat and the harpoon trail. If you look at this gap, and compare it to the length of the inflatable (something we know is about 16 feet long and at the same distance) it's clear that the harpoon was at least 10 feet overhead.

[LeftyMom]

70. It looks lower than that to me, but the video isn't real clear

but even if it is that high firing an explosive harpoon four feet overhead of a fast moving boat shows an astonishing disregard for human life.

[flvegan]

60. Can you be

called upon to testify, I mean, since you're SUCH an expert, and all...

You know...just in case...

[Harper_is_Bush]

63. Why not stow the personal attacks and sarcasm flvegan

You are welcome to look at the video and make your own judgment. To me it's quite obvious that the harpoon trail passes over 10 feet above the inflatable.

If greenpeace and sea shepherd want to protect thier credibility I think it's pretty critical that they always strive for truth and honesty. You agree?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

66. Even if that harpoon was 10 feet over the boat,

that's what 4 feet overhead? Not exactly safe or responsible. If I shot a gun 4 feet over somebody's head I'd go to jail and rightly so.

[Harper_is_Bush]

69. It appears at least 10 feet overhead.

As I stated in another post, if you pause the video as soon as you hear the shot you see the trail of the harpoon.
Note the gap between the people in the boat and the harpoon trail and compare it to the size of the boat (which is about 16 feet long).
That is how it can be determined how high above them the harpoon was shot.

[LeftyMom]

71. There's no need to repeat youself to run up your post count

I saw your first response and replied.

[Harper_is_Bush]

72. You didn't comprehend what I explained in my last post

You obviously did not comprehend my last post because you still referred to "4 feet overhead" as something derived from what I'm saying.

I'm saying it clearly can be seen to be at least 10 feet overhead.

Sounds like your connection isn't very good anyway, since the video is pixelated for you.

Take a look at this pic, it supports what I'm saying:
http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/15/greenpeace_wideweb__470x357,2.jpg

[LeftyMom]

73. You said 10 feet over the boat

assuming a typical male human is 6' high, that's 4' overhead. Basic math.

[Harper_is_Bush]

74. Five times I've said 10 feet or over 10 feet OVERHEAD

Once I said OVER 10 feet over the boat.

The observation I made about this picture should be easy to comprehend:
http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/15/greenpeace_wideweb__470x357,2.jpg
Looking at the harpoon trail and the HEADS of the people in the boat, we can identify clearly a gap. Comparing the size of this gap to the boat itself (16 feet) it's quite clear and obvious that the harpoon was at least 10 feet above thier heads.

Hopefully that will clear up any remaining confusion. :)

[Redstone]

49. I'm on your side right from the git on this one.

We're not going to need ANY discussion to come to an agreement.

As you know, I have defended the seal hunters (though not necessarily the hunt itself) because the Newfs are so goddamned poor that they might not be able to feed their families without the income from the seal hunt.

But the Japanese? I think they can get along fine economically without killing whales. And whether it's legal or not (it is), there's something very twisted in the character of people who want to kill whales because, well, they WANT to kill whales.

And you and I and everyone else knows that's the truth. "Scientific research" my ass. they just want to say "Ha ha, fuck you, we can kill whales and you can't stop us."

Redstone

[flvegan]

53. Ah, Redstone, sir

This is why I respect you so. You see what so many others choose not to see.

Yes, no discussion here, I guess. I very, very much appreciate your take on this, sir.

And for the record, the seal hunt being a different issue, were it natives taking profit from same, I'd not be so critical. However...

You defend as you see fit. I welcome a valid discussion from an individual worthy of same. You defend as you see fit, as I don't think anyone, even me, would have it any other way.

[Odin2005]

38. It's sickening that this "scientific" BS is allowed.

That makes just as much sense as having the killing tigers or pandas for "scienific" reasons. The Japanese are fooling nobody with this crap.

[MasonJar]

40. I am sorry, but what right does any body of so-called human

lawmakers have to establish the time and place when killing of any innocent creatures for science or profit is acceptable? I admire Greenpeace immensely; I support their courage and their assiduity in saving whales. And as for the Navy and its programs, the Navy is one of the most outrageous proponents of the abuse of these loving, friendly mammals and of other similar mammals. With no evident concern for the well-being of fellow living beings on planet Earth, the Navy systematically and deliberately practices sonar experimentations in areas where whales and porpoises live when there is continuous proof that this action can be deadly and/or detrimental to these animals, who in turn are doing nothing to harm us...rather merely trying to live their lives in peace. Peace...what a beautiful word...certainly not a word which amnkind has ever taken kindly to. We are the creature of war, hate and destruction.

[flvegan]

41. Considering that the research can be done by "darting" it's lunacy

to think that harpooning and killing need be done, outside of the fact that whale meat is a delicacy in Japan. It's a facade, this research by taking.

Also, the numbers of the minke population have been scientifically discredited, and dare I suggest, proven to be wrong.

[Odin2005]

42. Why are they getting away with this?

Are other countries afraid of not being "culturally sensitive" to japanese fishermen about thier "traditions and ways of life" and other such politically correct BS like the Inuit do when it comes to whaleing? :shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

43. I would bet the photo with the opening post showing the blood in the water

has given a couple of DU visitors a real Rep. Boehner. Nothing seems to please some people than the ability to lay waste to anything, anyone whenever the spirit moves, just because it's possible as proof you can be "powerful." Almost as good as being immortal, isn't it?

[robbibaba]

44. link to comment to Japanese prime minister

http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/forms/comment.html

This link takes you to a page to send comments to the prime minister of Japan. (Possibly almost as useless as bickering about the issue on du.)