Senior physician: PM could be declared as being in vegetative state

[IndianaGreen]

Senior physician: PM could be declared as being in vegetative state

By Ran Reznick and Tamara Traubman, Haaretz Correspondents

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, whose doctors began trying last week to bring him out of a state of induced coma, still shows no significant signs of reviving.

A senior physician who is an expert in intensive care and comas told Haaretz on Sunday that, according to reports by doctors treating Sharon, if the prime minister's condition persists into next week - he is still unconscious and connected to a respirator - he may be defined as being in a vegetative state.

<snip>

According to the physician: "Few people of Sharon's age have regained consciousness after such a massive stroke as the one the prime minister had, especially after three emergency operations."

The doctor added that when he has to speak to the family of an individual in such a situation, he tells them: "He will not fully regain consciousness. He may be able to breath alone and will not need equipment, but he will remain severely disabled."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/670659.html

[Greeby]

1. Someone send Bill Frist a videotape

:evilgrin:

[Submariner]

9. Oh no!

[mike_c]

2. it's a crying shame when criminals like Sharon get to slip away...

...quietly in their sleep.

[IndianaGreen]

3. This is a fate worse than death!

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Poll_Blind]

6. I see that Metallica video for "One", based on the "Johnny's got

his gun" book. Sharon playing out the event of his life, unaware if he is alive or dead, but able to think.

I think I agree that I wouldn't wish it on anyone, however since my introduction to the Israeli/Palestinian issue I have noticed that some Zionists really enjoy calling Jews who don't share their religious/political viewpoints "self-loathing". Anyone who would call a Jew "self-loathing", an insult so uniquely and heinously vile, because of their political differences deserves no mercy from fate.

PB

[mike_c]

12. you're kidding, right?

If so, apologies in advance if my sarcasm detector isn't working properly. But a vegetative state is completely unconscious. He isn't suffering-- he isn't aware. He's just meat being kept from rotting by a combination of biochemistry and medical machinery-- it's unpleasant to consider, but he has no awareness of the experience. If they unplug him before they get him breathing again-- if it is ever possible to get him breathing again-- he'll simply die, again with no more awareness of it than if he were already dead. For all intents and purposes, he is already dead. His stroke was the rough equivalent of a bullet to the brain.

[Posteritatis]

13. That's assuming he *is* vegetative, and not locked-in or something

If it's the former, that's a small mercy, though there's something to be said for simply letting someone at that point pass on (if you believe in the religious/spiritual connotations of that sort of thing, that is). Closure is good either way.

If it's the latter, a situation where the hamster's alive and the wheel could spin but it's been knocked off the axle and is, in any way, aware of the fact... No, that I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and I deeply pity anyone trapped in that particular box.

[mike_c]

16. at present he's in a coma, so it's a moot point...

...until-- and if-- he ever awakes.

[superconnected]

24. half the people in diabetic comas wake up, but hey why bring in facts.

He may not wake up but who knows. I've experienced people who have woken up before personally so I wouldn't be so quick judge. Even the doctors don't know wether someone will wake up or not.

[mike_c]

27. come on-- reality check-- Sharon is not in a diabetic coma....

He has sustained a massive brain injury. The proportion of people who recover from injuries of that scale is miniscule, and in Sharon's case, recovery likely means little more than being able to breathe on his own, but with little or no cognitive brain function. Remember Terri Shivo? That's Ariel Sharon's SECOND most likely future-- his first most likely is remaining in his current condition until someone has the sense to unplug him.

[superconnected]

31. do you even know why teri shivo was in a coma

My dad and my co-worker were stroke victims. Shivo's coma was from starvaton from bulimia. News flash, you don't know what you got there for up to two weeks after the stroke. Then people recover the most in 2 years, and then have up to about 4 years before more recovery becomes unlikely.

But don't let me stop you from being a charlatan ...

[mike_c]

33. charlatan? Oh my-- with all due respect for your encyclopedic...

...knowledge regarding stroke and brain injury, Ariel Sharon is going to die without regaining consciousness. He is already brain dead, IMO. From today's news:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/7461.htm

"Sharon is still alive," a Sharon aide in the intensive care unit told Ynet. But Channel Ten quotes "someone very close" to the PM as saying that he had suffered "brain damage" -- to what extent was not indicated -- unconnected with the effects of the operation.

<snip>

Mor-Yosef was not reporting any untruths, but neither was he addressing the critical issue of brain function, a subject which has been studiously avoided by all hospital officials.

One of the factors in the cloud of uncertainty regarding the announcement of brain death, media sources speculated, relates to the effect of the announcement on stock markets.

<snip>

Perhaps the most important reason for the delay is to allow time for the preparation of a state funeral and the invitation to world leaders to attend. According to the expected schedule, Channel 10's Emmanuel Rosen reported,Sharon will be detached from one or more of his life support machines in the next day or two, with the likelihood that he will not be able to survive without support. At that point, Rosen, "the most difficult" decision would need to be made.

According to Channel 10, the official death announcement is planned for Sunday, when world markets are closed, assuming that this will suffice to accommodate the travel plans of A-list world and Jewish leaders.

[superconnected]

41. Charlatan.

I have never said or believed Sharon would wake up. I protest against calling coma victims meat kept alive. What a sick individual who would call them that. Some coma victims wake up, some don't.

You and the doctors have no idea what they would get if Sharon did wake up.

I have never expected sharon to. Again, I see CHARLATANS.

[mike_c]

42. you misread my comments, or simply didn't pay attention....

His coma is incidental. I said he is "meat being kept alive" because he is likely brain dead, not because he's in a coma. Whether he awakes from his coma is immaterial-- if he does, he'll most likely be in a state of "waking unconsciousness," i.e. able to respond to simple stimuli but without congnitive awareness. At best he will be severely impaired by brain damage.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he'll wake up, stretch, order a pizza, and reach for the TV remote control. But don't bet on it.

[caligirl]

37. her coma was due to apnea suffered during a heart attack brought

on by potassium/sodium imbalance and that was due to bulimia. Her brain was severley damaged due to O2 deprivation.

[superconnected]

23. My dad and my co worker both woke up from "vegetative" states,

when doctors told our family and hers that we should remove the feeding tubes. My dad lived a very good 10 years on his own and had a gf after he woke up. My co-worker is still alive, totally functioning and is a systems admin just like I am.

Your meat and rotting analyogy is pretty sickening. Actually it's too grotesque to even type to you further. Ewww. I expect that kind of empathy from GW.

[Zynx]

34. Given the nature of Sharon's stroke, he's probably done for.

There was a massive amount of bleeding here - just look at the number of times they had to go back into his head to try to fix it.

If he regains consciousness, he probably will wish that he hadn't.

[caligirl]

38. Your personal experience is a profound one with much emotion, it does not

make for a medical judgement. Need more than personal, and no doubt heart breaking experience, for that. It would be like me, an RN who lost a sister in a plane crash along wwith 143 other souls, claiming I know the cause of all airline crashes.

[superconnected]

40. I'm not claiming I know the cause of anything

I'm saying sometimes people wake up.

I doubt sharon will. Claiming people in comas are meat and they don't wake up is wrong. Some wont, some will.

[Tesha]

21. Why? Are they less dead?

(Yes, I understand your point. We didn't get to
see him in the dock, lying his ass off trying
to avoid his guilt while deflecting the investigation
from still-ongoing genocide, etc. But if it's punishment
you want, then death is death, whether it's administered
at the end of a gallows rope or a burst artery.)

Tesha

[mike_c]

26. agreed-- one always hopes for justice, but fate will do in a pinch....

eom

[Poll_Blind]

4. Doesn't Sharon's government regain power unless 100 days have....

...passed? If he dies, that's a different story, but I believe there was something in Israeli law which gave a 100-day window.

PB

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. Rats

I thought you were talking about our pResident.

Shit.

You just ruined my evening.

Thanks a lot.

Shit.

[punpirate]

7. Take heart...

... President Cheney's probably pretty close to blowing a gasket....

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. now, I am smiling.

I just hope they catch Mr. Gout spewing and spouting on video.

[FightingIrish]

11. Having the IQ of a turnip qualifies as a vegetative state.

[savemefromdumbya]

8. Thought you meant 'our' President on first glance!

I winder why we have to hear so much detail about him every day. Israel has to move on now.

[Up2Late]

10. This seems a bit pre-mature, plus it's, "A senior physician..."

This is sensationalist, we called it first, sell more news papers... type journalism.

I think I'll wait for a doctor that will let his name be printed.

[Posteritatis]

14. I'm not sure I'd want to be known as the doc who wrote Sharon off.. (n/t)

[hlthe2b]

15. This guy's care has been one big clusterfuck, it appears....

Why his personal docs ever let him become so obese and such a walking billboard for cardiovascular disease and stroke risk, I can't imagine. Beyond this, lots has been written about the treatment/overtreatment--especially the controversial use of blood thinners given other risk factors. Frankly when someone has such a massive stroke immediately after a smaller stroke,I strongly believe that the generally poor prognois should be discussed with family members PRIOR to deciding on dramatic surgical intervention.

Sad, very sad (even given my general feelings towards Sharon which are not positive, I feel for the family and his supporters).

[area51]

35. "...his personal docs ever let him become so obese"

Er, let him? I'm not in the medical profession, but how could the doctors have stopped him from eating so much? If they were decent drs., surely they tried to get him to lose weight, exercise, etc.

[thinkingwoman]

36. eating so much?

You know it is possible to be fat and not eat too much right?

You do know that there are people with metabolisms so messed up that they can GAIN weight while exercising 7 days a week and restricting their caloric intakes to next to nothing right?

Because I am one of those people.

[hlthe2b]

39. I think you misread.. my point was the fact that they "let him

become so obese without dealing with the concommitant risk factors for CVD and stroke." While his obesity may have been largely behavioral (lack of exercise, excess in rich foods, etc) or partially physical, the point was that whether or not they could influence him to change those patterns and impact weight gain, they had a responsibility to deal with the hypertension, and elevated cholesterol and other symptomatic risk factors that develop as a result. It does not appear they did so, until after the first stroke.

[Scurrilous]

17. PM said to have opened eyes, but significance unclear

<snip>

"Members of Ariel Sharon's family said Monday that the prime minister's eyelids had moved and that he had appeared to have opened his eyes for the first time since suffering his stroke on January 4, but officials of Hadassah University hospital said that the medical significance of the observation was unclear.

Earlier on Monday, staff treating Sharon had denied a news report that the prime minister had opened his eyes for the first time since a massive stroke on January 4.

Aides to the prime minister described the movement of Sharon's eyes as an involuntary action that did not mean his coma had ended.

It's a reflex action," one aide said. "You can tell that the pupils don't follow anything."

But Army Radio reported family members at Sharon's bedside had observed his eyes appearing to follow movements in the room."

more

[IndianaGreen]

19. This sounds like the Schiavo case

She could certainly sit up and move her eyes, but as her autopsy proved, she was brain dead.

[superconnected]

25. I figure everyone is brain dead by the time they have an autopsy.

:)

[Fredda Weinberg]

32. Responded to his grandson's voice

That's more than my father did after his massive brain hemorrhage.

[Onlooker]

18. I'm no fan of his

But, for whatever reason, Sharon was taking real steps towards peace and establishing a Palestinian state. He probably wanted it to be his legacy, and it's a very good legacy even if its on his terms. Let's hope Israel continues to make progess. Let's hope the next time we're stuck with a rightie, we at least get someone like Sharon.

[mark11727]

20. On the other hand...

...Rachel Corrie might beg to differ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

...and you'd be amazed how cruel some folks can be at what happened to her.

[daleo]

30. It seems like warmakers sometimes want to be peacemakers near the end

McNamara comes to mind as another with an apparent late life revelation. But, but that time they are generally ignored (McNamara), pushed aside (I think Reagan was pushed aside for all practical purposes after his Iceland moment of nuclear disarmament) and occasionally even assassinated (Rabin, perhaps Sharon got an extra push).

Making peace is tough in a world of war happy-leaders and their inner circles, especially if you have agreed with them most of your life. Leaders who see the light seem to become expendable pretty fast (JKF and his desire to disengage from Viet Nam is another possibility).

On edit - I sometimes wonder if Bush's battles with pretzels and so forth don't have the same cause, but in a smaller way.

[AnnieBW]

22. Wake Up Long Enough...

I want him to wake up long enough to say, "Pat Robertson, go f*ck yourself!"

[smirkymonkey]

29. What a coincidence! So is our President!

Imagine that!