U.S. helicopter shot down in Iraq - witnesses

[Eugene]

U.S. helicopter shot down in Iraq - witnesses
16 Jan 2006 06:43:19 GMT
Source: Reuters
(Adds details)

BAGHDAD, Jan 16 (Reuters) - A U.S. helicopter was shot down north of Baghdad on Monday,
witnesses said.

They said they saw a rocket hit the helicopter in an area where the small town of Mishahda
is situated.

There was no immediate word on the fate of the crew, and the U.S. military said it was checking
the incident.

One witness said U.S. troops surrounded the crash site and that smoke was rising from the area.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L16370300.htm

[babylonsister]

1. Shit. They better not spin this as a 'weather' incident,

:cry: as they do/have done, I fear.

[Julius Civitatus]

2. Second helicopter attack in a few days

There was another US helicoper downed on Friday.

I think this may be an indication that the insurgents may be getting new and better weapons, beyond the homemade explosive devices they've been using until now.

This is some serious shit. Scary stuff.

[KeepItReal]

4. It wouldn't take much to shoot down the OH-58D that went down earlier

It is an unarmored scout helicopter. It wasn't really made for patrolling urban combat areas.

It was made to look for and designate targets (like enemy tanks) at long distance for attack helicopters like Apaches and other weapons platforms.

[lvx35]

5. There has been speculation in local Republican circles

that we are fighting some kind of cold war with some bigger power there. They may be right, but then again there was speculation in Republican circles that Katrina was caused by a super weapon, so make of all that what you will.

[4dsc]

13. I'll run this by a couple of rightie I debate

I debate with rightie all the time and I'll float this idea with them to see what I get.. This ought to be good..

[lvx35]

30. Do it...There's a good chance he's heard of it.

These Republicans have pretty tight little communications network for being pretty unplugged (a lot of them) so when a meme like that gets out it often spreads all over the place pretty quick.

[Ezlivin]

26. Could be the Afghanistan War II, with us versus the Russians

Except that this time we're the ones bogged down in a foreign land, fighting against insurgents armed with technology they didn't create.

[Citrene]

38. Iraq will be the US version of Afghanistan for Russia.

The monies spent by Russia fighting the "insurgents" in Afghanistan was the straw that took down Russia (best part is, we paid for it).

The monies spent by the US in Iraq and what we've lost in world opinion will take down the US.

Thank you, neo-cons or whatever you'd like to call yourselves these days. It's the same damned bunch of people coming back to haunt us every 10 years or so. Ike warned us all in his farewell speech to the nation. Beware of the military-industrial complex. I heard some author or speaker on C-Span also mention Congress and that was part of his speech as well. Beware of the congressional-military-industrial complex. The congressional part was scrubbed from the speech. Puts it all in a really new light, doesn't it? "the congressional, militay, industrial complex".

from his speech:
"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

snip:

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.

and to the end:

So -- in this my last good night to you as your President -- I thank you for the many opportunities you have given me for public service in war and peace. I trust that in that service you find some things worthy; as for the rest of it, I know you will find ways to improve performance in the future.

You and I -- my fellow citizens -- need to be strong in our faith that all nations, under God, will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle, confident but humble with power, diligent in pursuit of the Nation's great goals.

To all the peoples of the world, I once more give expression to America's prayerful and continuing aspiration:

We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love."


http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

also wouldn't it be great if we just had hundreds of thousands of phamplets to put everywhere...

WAR IS A RACKET By SMEDLEY BUTLER

WAR IS A RACKET

Smedley Darlington Butler

Major General - United States Marine Corps

Born West Chester, Pa., July 30, 1881

Educated Haverford School

Married Ethel C. Peters, of Philadelphia, June 30, 1905

Awarded two congressional medals of honor, for capture of Vera Cruz, Mexico, 1914,

and for capture of Ft. Riviere, Haiti, 1917

Distinguished service medal, 1919

Retired Oct. 1, 1931

On leave of absence to act as director of Department of Safety, Philadelphia, 1932

Lecturer - 1930's

Republican Candidate for Senate, 1932

Died at Naval Hospital, Philadelphia, June 21, 1940

For more information about Major General Smedley Butler, contact the United States Marine Corps.

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[hvn_nbr_2]

34. Katrina caused by super weapon?

I thought that they thought it was the wrath of God on the godless gays in NOLA? Can't they even keep their frothing paranoid delusions straight?

[lvx35]

42. Well, the problem with the God theory is that it doesn't justify war.

They have to constantly justify everything they're doing at this point, and that takes an ever more evil and clandestine enemy. I mean, suspending civil liberties in a way that is more severe than what we did in WWII fighting the vastly powerful Axis nations requires justification in the form of a secret enemy more powerful than the nazis.

[lvx35]

6. delete dupe

[leftchick]

14. It is actually the third down in a week

it is going to get much worse.

[mike_c]

3. they're "checking the incident...."

Like "Oh, thanks for letting us know about that. A helicopter you say? Shot down? One of ours? We'll check on that right away and get back to you soonest!" Right....

[HuffleClaw]

7. yeah, that is pretty funny

this was exactly the sort of response that you could use to see which osama bin laden tapes were from the REAL bin laden. when it was a real bin laden tape they always claimed it was 'inconclusive', but when it was a fake bin laden tape they would 'verify' it in about 18 hours.

[Up2Late]

8. Update: US helicopter crashes near Baghdad (Reuters)

US helicopter crashes near Baghdad

Mon Jan 16, 2006 03:26 AM ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. helicopter crashed just north of Baghdad on Monday, witnesses and the military said, in what appeared to be the second shooting down of an American aircraft in three days. The U.S. military confirmed that the helicopter went down but was still investigating the cause of the crash. A military spokesman had no comment on the fate of the crew or the type of helicopter.

Earlier, witnesses said the aircraft went down after coming under rocket fire in the small town of Mishahda. One witness said U.S. troops surrounded the crash site, where smoke was rising. Rebels in northern Iraq apparently shot down an armed U.S. reconnaissance helicopter on Friday, killing its two pilots, in a rare instance of American air power being challenged by guerrillas on the ground.

Just six days earlier, all 12 people aboard were killed when a Black Hawk helicopter went down close to the nearby northern city of Tal Afar, though that has so far been blamed on weather. Only three small helicopters were confirmed as being shot down last year, the most recent a Cobra brought down by rebel fire in Ramadi in November, although the causes of some other fatal crashes have not been made public. A British transport plane was brought down a year ago, killing all 10 aboard.

U.S. commanders have warned of a possible increase in violence once the results of last month's parliamentary election are finally announced, probably this week. Sunni Arab guerrillas are waging an insurgency to try to force U.S. troops out of the country and topple the Shi'ite- and Kurdish-led government.

(They should have more at this link soon, that's usually how it works)

<http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=10858922§ion=news>

[psychopomp]

9. RIP soldiers and crew

Your struggles are over.

[LiberalInGeorgia2005]

10. Sad

All I'm going to say.

[leftchick]

12. Juan Cole predicted the SA-14s would start showing up

will it take our last helicopter down before we bring home the troops??

[Pavulon]

23. Expensive weapon,, sort of modern

wonder where it is coming from. Wonder if iran read "charlie wilson's war" and is supplying more advanced sam technology to the muj?

Just a thought, not claiming fact, by a long shot.

EDIT: The SA-18 is a newer version of this. Would be interesting to see if it turns up.
Title. this weapon has been on the market since the 80's.

[leftchick]

37. why not russia?

now that is a thought.

[Hobarticus]

29. I'm actually surprised it took this long...n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

11. I bet that if someone did some research on downed choppers in.....

...Iraq and Afghanistan over the last few years that quite a few have been brought down by small, shoulder-fired missile systems, with a small percentage being shot down by small arms.

[tanyev]

15. Pentagon to families: Go ahead, laugh

When the stress of the war in Iraq becomes too severe, the Pentagon has a suggestion for military families: Learn how to laugh.
With help from the Pentagon's chief laughter instructor, families of National Guard members are learning to walk like a penguin, laugh like a lion and blurt "ha, ha, hee, hee and ho, ho."

No joke.

"I laugh every chance I get," says the instructor, retired Army colonel James "Scotty" Scott. "That's why I'm blessed to be at the Pentagon, where we definitely need a lot of laughter in our lives."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-12-pentagon-laughter_x.htm

:grr:

[saigon68]

16. They can laugh at this

And ten years later few will mourn the passing of the dead

[bemildred]

17. We're all dead in the end.

But it doesn't need to be nearly this shitty.

I would guess this story means that air support is going to be harder to come by.

[rodeodance]

18. this story says it is the 2nd shoot down in 3 days.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060116/ts_nm/iraq_dc;_ylt=AgHTOQB3spsNkFgh0BcYNxOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

US helicopter down in Iraq, more violence seen

By Michael Georgy 1 hour, 8 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. helicopter came down near Baghdad on Monday in what appeared to be the second shooting down of an aircraft in three days, with rebel violence expected to escalate as Iraq's election results are confirmed.



Local witnesses said the aircraft went down after coming under rocket fire in the small town of Mishahda just north of the capital. The U.S. military confirmed the helicopter had come down but was still investigating the cause.
A military spokesman had no comment on the fate of the crew.

Two little-known Iraqi insurgent groups issued separate claims for the downing of the helicopter and one issued a video apparently showing the attack, according to Web postings.

[rodeodance]

19. Average (85 votes)

Average (85 votes)

[leQ]

36. it's the 3rd in ten days

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. military helicopter crashed north of the Iraqi capital Monday — the third American chopper to go down in 10 days — killing the two crew members. A resident said he saw the smoke trail of a missile before the aircraft plunged to the ground.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq_helicopter_down;_ylt=AmevApLGCKdoKMsibkCNd5ys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[rodeodance]

20. kicky poo

[rodeodance]

21. may the families find peace

[Pavulon]

22. Back History

The Army is using helicopters more and more to transport people and supplies because road travel is dangerous.

Helicopters are more susceptible to failure than fixed wing planes. IE they crash more.

Now that does not mean this helicopter was or was not shot down. It does mean we will se an increase in the number of people killed in helicopter crashes.

[Ben Ceremos]

24. Nothing ruins a good day

like a hello from SAM. The insurgency is winning and you Americans are slowly being bled to death; at home as well. Should have listened to the people who warned you, but no-o-o-o-o!!! Eyewitness said they saw a rocket. The argument from statistics is bullshit. That chopper was "gunned down"!!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Looks like another two-person Kiowa

"The official said the helicopter usually has a two-person crew and was being used by the U.S. Army's Task Force Iron Horse."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/16/iraq.main/index.html

[minkyboodle]

27. US helicopter down in Iraq (new one I think)

By Michael Georgy and Mariam Karouny
2 hours, 3 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamic militants released an Internet video of what they said was a missile shooting down a U.S. helicopter near Baghdad on Monday, apparently the second shooting down of an aircraft in three days.

A court trying Saddam Hussein appointed a replacement for the chief judge, throwing into further disarray a trial that Iraqi officials had hoped would help undermine an insurgency led by the former president's supporters.

Footage broadcast on Arabic television of a guided surface-to-air missile slamming into the aircraft reinforced expectations that rebels would escalate attacks when the results of Iraq's December 15 parliamentary election are confirmed

The U.S. military earlier confirmed a helicopter had come down but said it was still investigating the cause. A military spokesman had no comment on the fate of the crew.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060116/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. Super dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2044158&mesg_id=2044158

[kineneb]

31. helicopter=Goliath, locals=David

Choppers have some serious vulnerabilities; everything is dependant on one solid piece of finely machined steel, the hub. The rotors are fragile and easy to take out. In Africa, the locals discovered that a well-aimed arrow could take out the oil lines to the motor; no motor, no fly. The Afghanis used to take out Soviet helicopters with rocks from above, while they were flying them through the high mountain passes.

Relying on helicopters is not such a great idea. It shows the military is unable to control the ground situation (= lost war).

[happyslug]

40. Triangulation of Fire from 3 + Machine Guns was a Viet Cong Trick

And it was VERY EFFECTIVE. Shoulder mounted Ground to Air Missiles in conjunction with 3 or more Machine Guns gives you an excellent possibility of knocking out Helicopters (and even low flying planes). Such a Combination is why the US fly at 600 feet above the Surface instead of the much lower levels flown by everyone else.

With the introduction of Larger Ground to Air Missiles in the 1960s Pilots started to fly lower and lower to avoid Radar guided Missiles. The problem was such low flying opened up the plane to Machine Guns and Shoulder Mounted Missiles. Based on the US Experience in Vietnam and the Israeli Air Force Experience US Pilots fly at about 600 feet above the Ground while our Allies tend to fly much lower. 600 Feet tends to keep a Plane or Helicopter out of the Range of most Machine Guns and Shoulder Fired Missiles while flying low enough to avoid larger missiles.

In Iraq we do not have to worry about Large Ground to Air Missiles, so out planes tend to be safe, but the Helicopters when landing or picking up Troops tend to operate within the 600 feet kill Zone (Once up in the Air, the Helicopter just keep going up till out of range of Machine Guns and Missiles).

Thus the recent loses may just be related to better use of Machine Guns set up over areas the Enemy KNOWS the Helicopter is going.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. US military confirms two killed in helicopter shootdown

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74693

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. military says two pilots have been killed in a helicopter crash north of Baghdad.


In his speech, Al Gore argued that the lies and misinformation that spreads through a government has to eventually bump into reality, usually on a battlefield.

Welcome to the Desert of the Real...

[Roland99]

33. Damn...

:(

[saltpoint]

35. This report just CAN'T be right. What it probably meant to

convey was that millions of Iraqis have flooded the streets to present the occupying forces with flowers.

Yeah. That had to be it.

[TheBaldyMan]

39. One of the groups have posted a video of an attack on a chopper

According to a Gulfnews report also citing Reuters as a source says one of the three groups calling itself the Mujahedeen Army has posted a video of a rocket attack against a helicopter claiming the helicopter as their kill.

[Up2Late]

41. NPR just said that this Helicopter was an Apache gunship.

This, I would guess, would indicate some sort of missile.