State closes in on deal for cheap oil from Venezuela ( Vermont )

[Judi Lynn]

State closes in on deal for cheap oil from Venezuela
January 19, 2006
By Bruce Edwards Rutland Herald

Vermont is close to a deal to obtain discounted fuel oil from Venezuela — a deal that would save low-income Vermonters precious dollars off their home heating bills this winter.

Rep. Bernard Sanders, I-Vt., expects to announce details of the agreement next week with Venezuela and Citgo, the government-controlled oil company.
(snip)

Campbell said the deal will be similar to agreements Venezuela and Citgo reached recently with Maine and Rhode Island. Parts of Massachusetts and New York City have also benefited from Venezuela's offer.

She said the discounted home heating oil would help recipients of the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program as well as homeless shelters in Vermont.
(snip/...)

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060119/NEWS/601190349/1003/NEWS02

[goodboy]

1. How dare those godless commie evil-doers help the poor and needy? Don't

they know that the x-tian thing to do is let them freeze and starve to death? That way they'll go to the Lord faster...and who wouldn't want that?

---listen you radical right-wing x-tian Talibani hypocrites:

First, Go fuck yourselves.

Then take the $$ from the next round of Bush's tax cuts and buy a big wooden cross and stick it in your front yard.

Climb on up.

Nail yourselves to it, and I'll be by later to light it on fire.

[SpiralHawk]

2. "Those Green Mountain hicks will pay for this." - BushCo & Oil Cronies

along with the Republican culture of corruption.

you can bet your bippy they are keeping score, and waiting to settle the hash...

[Judi Lynn]

3. Right! In every case, the people who arranged the deals with Citgo,

after contacting ALL the oil companies for better heating oil rates for the poor in their states before connecting, finally with Venezuela, were Democrats, except for Vermont's Bernie Sanders, the Independent Senator.

We've had visiting posters here raging against the idea of poor Americans getting a better deal (40% lower heating costs) for the winter, so it's a good guess that _Bush is hopping mad about it.

[Piotr]

4. I suppose you think it's good that Chávez is "helping" your countrymen...

...but why doesn't he help Venezuelans instead? Last year, he gave away 60 billion dollars' worth of money to foreign countries for different things (he handles Venezuelan taxpayers' money as if it were his own personal treasury) when Venezuela could have used it, to say the least; and Evo Morales' previous international tour was paid off in full by Venezuela: 30 million dollars. Now, do you think that is good, with all the poverty and need and lack of economic development in Venezuela? Do you think that Venezuela should be so full of poverty at a time when it is receiving the most income through oil compared to previous governments?







There is even a viaduct linking Caracas and La Guaira that has been collapsing for several years now, although the government has done little for it. Now these two important cities are practically cut off from each other; transport betwen them has been gravely hampered, which in turn has hampered businesses, jobs (commuters), and aerial transport (Caracas' main airport is in la Guaira). Why didn't the government spend the money there? Why was nothing done to build another similar road in time?








These are the things that currently come to mind, although you must remember the apalling state of Venezuelan hospitals, schools, most roads, the abject poverty, invasion of buildings, inefficent waste disposal facilities, etc.

[Psephos]

15. Piotr is a Venezuelan, and makes a good point

As usual, the Hatfield and McCoy style of thinking does not serve the actual complexities.

That much said, it's hard to say there's no good in helping poor Vermonters. One wishes it not to be at the expense of poor Venezuelans.

Peace.

[1932]

17. They ARE helping Venezuelans, and the statistics show it, and the logic

of helping people on the bottom in the US is so obvious to me. We ALL do better when we all do better. America is a source of lots of revenue for Venezuela. Venezuela will be screwed if the US falls apart as much as poor Americans will be screwed. And globalizaion means no solutions are purely local anymore.

[Psephos]

27. I agree, but I also disagree

There are connections between local conditions as never before. But Chavez does not think that way. He is a petrodollar politician with his own agenda, not everyone else's, front and center.

It takes a special kind of determined naivete to think Chavez wants to subsidize poor Vermonters because he believes it will raise the water under everyone's boat. He's doing it to increase his prestige among the locals ("Look at me, I'm doing something even the mighty Bush can't do!") and he's doing it to increase his standing among other Latin states ("Look at me, while I whack the mighty Bush with a hardwood paddle!") It's a calculated act, but one that leads to some good results, at least for those who receive a discount on their heating bill. As for whether such political gamesmanship helps or harms the pan-American sphere in the longer run, I have my opinions. Let's just say that factionalizing the Americas does not make the task of international cooperation easier. Yet, if what you maintain is true about how we all can do better if we do better simultaneously, then international cooperation is imperative.

It kills me that people who take the universal corruption of corporations as a law of Nature somehow think that the same calculus is not used inside presidential palaces. Whether power accrues from money or from politics, it's a force for corruption and manipulation. Chavez is high on the power of both. History is eloquent about what we should expect next.

Peace.

[1932]

63. Your posts have a funny way of winding up with a truly Orwellian

final paragraph. Here, you take the progressive criticism of corporations, crticize the criticism, then you try to conflate the progressive position with the corporation while absolving the corporation.

Yeah, I guess I never realized that. Corporations aren't that bad, and Chavez is doing everythign that we criticize corporations of doing. That's why Washington Consensus economic policies were working out so well until Chavez came along.

And you know what proves it? All those unsubstantiated allegations you've made about Chavez's personality. You are so right. It's all about personality. Does your mom know Chavez's psychologist too?

[Psephos]

74. What's truly Orwellian is you invent things I did not say

and then construct your argument as though I did.

Sorry, that won't work on me.

I abhor the corruptions of power, regardless of provenance. Corporations are bad news precisely because they are aggregators of power. Where, exactly, did you get the idea that I "absolve" corporations? LOL I think them a scourge. I also think governments that feel immune from opposition and potent with fat treasuries are subject to the same corrupting influences as corporations. As I said earlier, corruption appeals to deep impulses within human nature. Pretending that corporate people are susceptible and government people are not is naive. The distinction between corporation and government only diverts attention from the source of the problem. Either we establish checks and balances against power (whether corporate or governmental), or it will engulf and devour us. Or we can burn the history books and learn the lessons fresh.

Chavez now has an unstoppable supermajority in his Congress, extraordinary amounts of money, and an ego that's growing faster than the US deficit. Sounds like a potent cocktail to me, which was the point I was making. Do you disagree that there is little balance of power in the current situation? Where exactly are the meaningful checks currently in place against Chavez?

When it comes to Chavez, I think of that old The Who song - "won't get fooled again." Too bad. In the late 90s, I had high expectations there.

Naturally, I don't expect my opinions to sit well with Chavez fanboys. Let the chips fall where they may.

[Flanker]

78. You are not looking for the balance then

"Chavez now has an unstoppable supermajority in his Congress, extraordinary amounts of money, and an ego that's growing faster than the US deficit. Sounds like a potent cocktail to me, which was the point I was making. Do you disagree that there is little balance of power in the current situation? Where exactly are the meaningful checks currently in place against Chavez?"

Chavez's allies control congress, what did you expect that they resign their post and give it to an opposition that has little popular support?

However Congress is not the only thing that balances power, first and foremost it is the people themselves that act as a counterbalance, then there are other things like an international image, regional interaction etc.

Chavez has nowhere near close to absolute power as you assume.

[Psephos]

83. I'm all ears

So far no one on this thread has answered my basic concern, which is: where are the checks against Chavez' power? Or do people really think this isn't an issue, against the overwhelming evidence history provides us?

An election in which 75% of the voters stayed home does not accurately reflect the will of the people. Clearly, most of the voters felt, for whatever reason, that the election was a farce. The boycott was meant to send a message.

The "people themselves act as a counterbalance." Not when they're up against the weaponry, money, political patronage, sub rosa security, and all the other apparatus of the modern state. That's my whole point. Apparently it wasn't lost on the electorate, either.

Perhaps I'll be proven wrong by Chavez, but I'm not holding my breath.

Peace.

[Flanker]

86. Fine then

"So far no one on this thread has answered my basic concern, which is: where are the checks against Chavez' power? Or do people really think this isn't an issue, against the overwhelming evidence history provides us?"

The checks are his own people, simple as that.

"An election in which 75% of the voters stayed home does not accurately reflect the will of the people. Clearly, most of the voters felt, for whatever reason, that the election was a farce. The boycott was meant to send a message."

In what world are you living? I did not vote and it sure as hell not indicative of what you stated, a better adjective might be lazyness. 40% never vote, 10-20% only vote on presidential elections, 10% on close elections and 5-10% abstained due to the boycott.

"The "people themselves act as a counterbalance." Not when they're up against the weaponry, money, political patronage, sub rosa security, and all the other apparatus of the modern state. That's my whole point. Apparently it wasn't lost on the electorate, either."

I guess it was also lost on every rational observer of the election, including the OAS and EU.

"Perhaps I'll be proven wrong by Chavez, but I'm not holding my breath."

Somehow I doubt this.

[Piotr]

88. Checks don't count as much when the people being checked also control

The checking mechanisms.

On December 4th/5th, Where were those 10 million supporters/voters that Chávez often says he has? And why were half the votes counted invalid?

The OAS and EU have published reports on those elections where they outline some things that caught their attention (look for them online). They were openly disliked by the Chávez government, to say the least; he accused both the OAS and the EU of being biased. What a change in reaction compared to the Recall Referendum reports, eh?

Chávez is head of the army, and is building a personal Praetorian guard of 1.5 million reservists, whose main objective is to protect Chávez and his family, before anything else. The army is also being prepared for an "asymmetrical war" designed to counter a hypothetical invasion force from the United States (yes, the official documents say a specific country, "the United States"). I guess the term imperialism only applies to Chávez's enemies- otherwise, Cuba wouldn't have her hand so wrapped up in Venezuelan affairs, living off Venezuelan oil and having military jursidiction in Venezuela, don't you think?

[Judi Lynn]

90. What information do you have on Cuba's "military jurisdiction" in Vene.?

Also, we DU'ers are very well aware of the countries and islands who have been receiving preferable rates on oil from both Venezuela AND Mexico for years. Nice try, attempting to portray Cuba as the only one at the receiving end of special oil arrangements.

We're also very aware of the howling done by the opposition attempting to prove "Cubanization" of Venezuela, considering the Cuban medical specialists working in zones in Venezuela where Venezuelan personel REFUSED to go, in the past.

Such sneaky dishonesty is repellent.

[Piotr]

91. I'm putting some links here,

Although most of the information I have gotten from Venezeualn legal experts on the matter of Venezuela's laws.

http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/A1700_0_5_0_M/

http://havanajournal.com/culture_comments/A664_0_3_0_M/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Cuba
"Currently, Cuba has diplomatically friendly relationships with Presidents Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, Lula da Silva of Brazil, and Nestor Kirchner of Argentina, with Chavez as perhaps his staunchest ally in the post-Soviet era. Castro has sent thousands of teachers and medical personnel to Venezuela to assist Chavez's socialist and populist-oriented economic programs. Chavez, in turn provides Cuba with lower priced petroleum. Cuban's debt for oil to Venezuela is believed to be on the order of one billion US dollars."

Laws

"Ley Aprobatoria del Acuerdo entre el Gobierno de la Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela y el Gobierno de la Republica de Cuba sobre el tratado de personas condenadas, suscrito en la ciudad de la Habana"
http://www.asambleanacional.gov.ve/ns2/leyes.asp?id=643

Gives Cuban authorities the right to arrest and extradite Cuban (that is, criminals wanted by Cuba) criminals on Venezuelan soil without Venezuelan intervention;

"Ley Aprobatoria del Convenio entre el Gobierno de la Repùblica Bolivariana de Venezuela y el Gobierno de la Repùblica de Cuba sobre Asistencia Jurìdica en Materia Penal"
http://www.asambleanacional.gov.ve/ns2/leyes.asp?id=575

Gives both countries' judiciary ample freedoms in intervening in each other's trials and judiciary affairs.

Suffice it to say , as well, that the Cuba-Venezuela doctors-for-oil program was carried out unconstitutionally (without approval of the Venezuelan Central Bank, as required by Constitution and Law)

[Judi Lynn]

94. I've only had time to scan your material, but I do NOT see anything

similar to your charges. Also, I'm surely not going to take ANYTHING from _Bush's State Department as being truthful, NEVER. They are proven liars.

Don't you read the news? Just today articles on _Bush propaganda, again, being handed to Americans as truthful info., while it has been created to confuse and mislead, and meant to deceive "the enemy." _Bush people say it's not their fault if the information is reprinted here and the American public is duped.

You haven't provided the information I requested. Your charges are, as always, opposition-supporting, anti-Chavez, and right-wing.

On edit: Gotta go elsewhere for the evening. Lotsa luck deceiving D.U.'ers. Most of us are not likely to be mislead.

[Piotr]

95. Read again. Especially the laws.

I didn't know the right wing had the monopoly on denouncing authoritarism; or are all of Bush's critics right-wing?
(you don't have to have a political orientation to be skeptical or critical).

Remember Venezuela's decades long liberal streak and handout culture. Perhaps one of the clearest indications is that MAS is one of the opposition parties now- has been for a long time. Remember, too, that you have never set foot on Venezuelan soil, and that you are almost completely at the mercy of the internet and its limitations when it comes to looking for information.

Didn't you know about Venezuela's Ministry of Communication and Information (controlled by Chávez)?
Here. Let me give you one of its mission statements:

"Asimismo, el Ministerio es el encargado de promover y mantener las relaciones con los diferentes medios de comunicación nacionales e internacionales, con asociaciones profesionales, universidades y demás centros de estudios e investigación, academias, gremios o representaciones sindicales profesionales y empresariales, con la finalidad de garantizar el correcto flujo de información relacionada con la gestión y proyectos gubernamentales y que la misma sea divulgada de manera veraz y oportuna. "

Likewise, the Ministry is charged with promoting and maintaining relations with the different national and international media, professional associations, universities and other research centers, academies, unions or other professional or entrepreneurial syndicate representations, with the aim of guaranteeing the correct flow of information related to gubernatorial management and projects and that it may be divulged in a truthful and timely manner".

"Where is truth when the government obstructs inquiry into the latest witness for the Danilo Anderson case, or when further inquiry into the events of April 11th is "discouraged" by the government, or when the media laws hamper investigation that might be perceived as "violent", or when even the lightest critics are ostracized or condemned as imperialists or servants thereof, like the leftist reporter Walter Martínez, who was asked to apologize for revealing details about cases of government corruption at the risk of losing his job (and he worked for the government station, too- he refused to apologize and lost his job)?

Also, did I mention it funds www.venezuelanalysis.com, the BBC, CNN, and other international communication outlets?

[Flanker]

96. That is quite the lengthy post

I will try to answer most of the queries.

With re: to Cuba and the oil, they have to pay part of it in hard cash and the rest is bartered, there are rumors that they are behind on their payments, which from what I have been told may be accurate, however that does not mean it was donated, just that they are late. You can count lost interest to your tally of "donations".

The cuban reciprocal law is more or less a beefed up extradition treaty, and among its exceptions is that extraditions cannot be done for political reasons. No case has tested the law as of yet.

"Suffice it to say , as well, that the Cuba-Venezuela doctors-for-oil program was carried out unconstitutionally (without approval of the Venezuelan Central Bank, as required by Constitution and Law)"

You have to give a link to this. The only legal challenge I know is the so called "revalida" I doubt the BCV has any dealings in that.

"Remember Venezuela's decades long liberal streak and handout culture. Perhaps one of the clearest indications is that MAS is one of the opposition parties now- has been for a long time. Remember, too, that you have never set foot on Venezuelan soil, and that you are almost completely at the mercy of the internet and its limitations when it comes to looking for information."

There is nothing "liberal" about old school Venezuela, handouts perhaps in terms of corruption, as stated there was little done to alleviate the symptoms of poverty.

"Likewise, the Ministry is charged with promoting and maintaining relations with the different national and international media, professional associations, universities and other research centers, academies, unions or other professional or entrepreneurial syndicate representations, with the aim of guaranteeing the correct flow of information related to gubernatorial management and projects and that it may be divulged in a truthful and timely manner".

That is mostly correct, the ministry is there to put a pro-Chavez point of view, but their assessments tend to be more factual than not, just biased.

""Where is truth when the government obstructs inquiry into the latest witness for the Danilo Anderson case,"

Court order gag law.

"or when further inquiry into the events of April 11th is "discouraged" by the government, or when the media laws hamper investigation that might be perceived as "violent","

To date there has not been an investigation of the shooting during the rally, so I guess the government is at least not doing enough to clear things up.

"like the leftist reporter Walter Martínez, who was asked to apologize for revealing details about cases of government corruption at the risk of losing his job (and he worked for the government station, too- he refused to apologize and lost his job)?"

Walter Martinez has mended some fences with the government, he might return to some capacity to VTV.

"
Also, did I mention it funds www.venezuelanalysis.com, the BBC, CNN, and other international communication outlets?
"

Now this is pure hogwash, there is not even evidence that venanalisys is gov funded much less the BBC and CNN.

[ronnie624]

98. You don't see anything similar

to the above poster's charges because there isn't anything similar.

The havanajournal.com article relied almost entirely on conjecture and innuendo to make its case while the wiki article was nothing more than a dry assessment of Cuban relations with a variety of Latin American and North American countries. I lacked the patience to go any further because I suspect I'll find similar nonsense in the other links.

The above gibberish is a case study in obfuscation IMHO.

[Judi Lynn]

99. Thanks for your comments. I just looked them over. Pathetic!

Two of them are in another language, and wouldn't be useful to the DU'ers who don't speak Spanish. Don't know what that's all about!

Gibberish. Acts of desperation. One of them is an opinion piece from the Miami Herald, which panders to the right-wing Cuban "exile" community in South Florida, which is bonded to the right-wing Venezuelan expatriot community there.

The Wikipedia piece is a masterpiece of gibberish. Random accusations, statements apparently are meant to be slams, indictments, but aren't, etc., etc. It announces Cuba has won the gratitude of Nelson Mandela. (Nelson Mandela is dispised in Miami, and has been publically insulted there for years. (I suspect the author of that collection of crap was from Miami.)

The piece describing the Cuban presence in Venezuela reiterates hallucinatory charges by the Venezuelan right-wing opposition, one of them that the Cubans have polluted Venezuelan gardens they have planted. I know that is completely asenine, seeing Cuba has made a HUGE contribution to the entire world by developing a whole body of expertise in organic urban gardens, and its experts are sought out world-wide!

You just never know how desperate these guys will get, do you? They can afford to brandish links when they realize most people are far too busy to find time to investigate their information, and their charges stand until someone takes a look at them.

The rest of us know better than to do that.

Very glad to see you looked them over. Thanks a lot.

[Piotr]

116. As the old Cuban proverb goes: "believe only half of what you hear".

If you're too busy to talk about an issue, then refrain from talking about it. Regarding the Cuban presence: the articles, which I quickly drew up from a google search, were meant to illustrate the amount of Cuban presence in Venezuela. The links to the laws were instead placed there so that you can see to what extent Cuban authorities can have an impact in Venezuela (and Venezuelan ones in Cuba, reciprocally). You know that Cuba has privileged ties to Venezuela; where are these laws regarding the Domincian Republic, or Trinidad and Tobago, or Jamaica, or Haiti? The same goes for the convenios; are there Dominican doctors sent by the Dominicant government in Venezuela? How about from Trinidad? Tobago? St Vincent and the Grenadines?

A word about reading. I am not advocating every claim against Cubans in Venezuela nor upholding every opposition claim, if you haven't noticed. Do not put words in my mouth or attach stereotypical labels. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to take every reading with a grain of salt or two? because if you expect to come across a text that upholds itself as the ultimate authority on everything, (ie, as a Messiah), then you will never be in a position to comment on anything- all your claims can be thrown out as repetition or blind propaganda (since "a perfect authority needs no revision"). Don't expect me to not make mistakes; but don't expect other not to, either.

As to contributions to the world...don't get me started on what other countries like the US, France, the United Kingdom, Germany, or India have done for the world in scientific and technological areas compared to Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

118. One thing separates Cuba from those other countries. First, it has

been burdened with a crushing economic embargo for over 45 years. The other ones HAVE NOT. In fact, the United Nations General Assembly annually condemns the powerful, and loathesome U.S. embargo with only two or three other countries (Israel, the Marshall Islands) affirming this illegal embargo.

Second, you are comparing cultures far, far older, and more established, and FAR LARGER, and of course, UNENCUMBERED BY CRIPPLING EMBARGOES. They also have not been continual targets of decades of terrorism.

Your dragging in Dominican Republic, Trinidad, Tobago, Jamaica, Haiti, St. Vincent, Grenadines only leaves me confused. Must be my over-stretched, limited intellect.

[Piotr]

124. Let me quickly remind you why I brough up those other Caribbean countries:

None of those countries have ties of authority in Venezuela as does Cuba, and claiming that Cuba's position with Venezuela is not privileged because Venezuela has deals regarding exchanges of oil with these Caribbean nations as well overlooks these specific Cuba-Venezuela laws and agreements. For example, there are no government-sponsored cadres of citizens from these nations working in Venezuela; there are no laws which give any of these countries the same kind of access or jurisdiction as do to Cuba the laws I gave links to above.

Regarding embargoes: remember that there are other ancient, established civilization or cultures not riddled with embargoes that have similarly not originally contributed technologically or scientifically to the world as have these other nations, although I specifically meant from after the 19th, 20th Centuries; For example, Iraq (which did have embargoes at a point), North Korea, Yemen, Oman, Iran, Egypt (except archaeology), Angola, Cape Verde, Madagascar, Argelia, etc.

Also, the US, France, the United Kingdom, Germany, and India have been targets of terrorism or internal struggle along their history. What is the terrorism that you refer to in Cuba's case, which has also financed terrorist agents itself?

[Flanker]

126. I just read the laws linked

And frankly I do not understand what the fuzz is about

http://www.asambleanacional.gov.ve/ns2/leyes.asp?id=643

" d) que la propia persona condenada consienta en el traslado, salvo que en razón de su edad o su estado físico, su representante legal lo haga en nombre de ella, si una de las Partes así lo considerare necesario;"

The individual has to consent to the "extradition"

" h) una declaración escrita en la que conste que el condenado ha dado su consentimiento para el traslado, de conformidad con el literal (d) del artículo 3 de este Acuerdo. "

A written declaration is needed.

"1. El Estado de condena debe asegurarse que la persona condenada, que consienta en el traslado conforme al literal (d) del artículo 3 de este Acuerdo, lo haga voluntariamente y con pleno conocimiento de las consecuencias jurídicas de ello. El procedimiento relativo al otorgamiento del consentimiento, se regirá por las leyes del Estado de condena."

I mean be really sure.

http://www.asambleanacional.gov.ve/ns2/leyes.asp?id=575

"1. Cualquier persona detenida en el Estado Requerido, y cuya presencia sea necesaria en el Estado Requirente con fines de asistencia con arreglo a este Convenio, podrá ser trasladada del Estado Requerido al Estado Requirente, siempre que lo consienta la persona en cuestión y estén de acuerdo las Autoridades Centrales de ambos Estados.

2. Cualquier persona detenida en el Estado Requirente y cuya presencia en el Estado Requerido sea necesaria con fines de asistencia conforme a este Convenio, podrá ser trasladada al Estado Requerido, siempre que lo consienta la persona en cuestión y estén de acuerdo las Autoridades Centrales de ambos Estados."

Again there must be consent.

"1. La Autoridad Central del Estado Requerido podrá denegar la asistencia si:

a) la solicitud se refiere a un delito político o a un delito militar;"

If the acts are political or military crimes the transaction is denied.

As I said before a supped up extradition treaty, nothing really alarming at all.

[Judi Lynn]

127. First of all, you probably should provide some sources for your charge

Cuba, that very SMALL island, has been conducting acts of terrorism against other countries, fully aware that the giant country to the North would gleefully squash Cuba flat if it had any possible excuse to do so. I'd really like a good long look at your sources for that claim.

Here's only SOME of the thousands of individual terrorism conducted against Cubans over the last 4+ decades:

Terrorist provocations against Cuba
A selection of items retrieved from news sources, 1992-96
By Ruch Wayne Millar, Saksatoon, Canada, 18 April 1996
In an attempt to try to understand why Cuba shot down the two Cessnas at such an inopportune time, I did some research. The following excerpts from online news services, radio reports, magazines and other sources illuminate the reasons for their actions. I'm sure there were many more instances to add to the list.

ARMED PARAMILITARY COMMANDOS ARRESTED
Seven anti-Castro Cubans armed with automatic weapons landed in Cuba on October 15, killing one local resident and attempting to steal a vehicle before Cuban authorities arrested them. The seven, captured after a shootout with security forces, left for Cuba from a third country in order to avoid violating the US Neutrality Law, which prohibits launching armed operations from the US. They are members of the Miami-based Democratic National Unity Party (PUND), which claimed responsibility for their action.

REPORT ON CIA PLOTS TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO RELEASED
Havana --The most detailed report to date on the US Central Intelligence Agency's plotting with Mafia bosses to assassinate Cuban president Fidel Castro, has just come to light in Washington. The report, covering the period of the early 60s, was declassified last week and passed on to public archives. The document gives detailed information on the CIA execution action capability program, described as a preparedness plan for carrying out assassination actions whenever deemed necessary. The report documents plans for using poisoned cigars and ball point pens for murdering the Cuban leader. It quotes statements from William Harvey, the CIA officer in charge of coordinating the assassination plans, suggesting the involvement of the highest level of the US government.

CASTRO TARGET OF ANOTHER ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT
An alleged assassination attempt was made on the life of Fidel Castro last April, according to the magazine Vanity Fair. The attempts on April 21 involved five men with machine guns who surrounded his car and opened fire as the vehicle left his home in suburban Havana. A Cuban identified as "Marta" learned this information from family members in the Cuban government. She was quoted as saying Castro's security squad, riding in the car behind his, killed the would-be assassins. Castro's chauffeur was wounded in the arm. The article also said a rumour circulated at the same time, a a conference of Cuban exiles in Havana, that the Cuban leader had been assassinated or died of natural causes. On the last day of the conference April 24, Castro met with the exiles.

EPIDEMIC CAUSED BY "UNKNOWN POISON"
A house-to-house vitamin distribution program has quelled an epidemic that sickened more than 50,000 Cubans, but the cause of the malady remains a mystery. Bjorn Thylefors, head a a World Health Organization investigation team, said a combination of an unknown poison and poor nutrition in Cuba apparently was to blame.

US CONDONED BOMBING OF CUBAN AIRLINER
Termed by Secretary of state Warren Christopher as "an uncivilized act" the integrity of Cuban air space does not also require a defense to those who pardoned the plotters of the bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1976 or fired a missile on and Iranian passenger plane over the Persian Gulf. Uncivilized acts are indeed a 37-year relentless campaign of terror, sabotage, assassination, disease, starvation and genocide conducted by a major power over a peaceful people. . Orlando Bosch, and the brothers Ignacior and Guillermo Novo Sampol were convicted and later absolved in Venezuela for blowing up a Cuban passenger jet in 1975 , killing all 73 people on board.

BOAT FULL OF GUNS, EXPLOSIVES
Nine Cuban-American arrested by the U.S. Coast Guard last week in the Florida keys with a boat full of guns and explosives were indicted on may 26 by a federal grand jury for violating U.S. weapons laws. The accused are members of the anti-Castro paramilitary group Alpha 66.

ALPHA 66 THREATENS TOURISTS
On November 6, 1993 Canadian newspapers, particularly those from Montreal, ran disturbing headlines: Alpha 66, an anti-Cuban group from Miami. announced that starting on November 27, tourists travelling to Cuba would be attacked by Alpha 66 members operating in Cuba. In the following months, travel wholesalers in Montreal also receive death threats. "Adding insult to injury is the fact that in this same week the anti- Castro terrorist group Alpha 66 announced that it now considered tourists in Cuba as justifiable targets for kidnappings and assassinations. Since Canadian tourists make up the largest single group of tourists in Cubaa ... it is clear that we constitute the largest probable target."

"COMMANDOS L" THREATENS TOURISTS
According to an article in the Jan. 23 edition of the daily Jersey Journal, Tony Bryant, the new leader of the Cuban exile group Commandos L, has "warned international tourists to stay away" from Cuba, saying "We're going to attack them." Last October, Commandos L sprayed the hotel Melia at the Varadero beach tourist resort with gunfire in what bryant told his audience was meant as a message to tourists.

ALPHA 66 ATTACK TOURIST HOTEL
The anti-Castro paramilitary group Alpha 66 announced in Florida that several of its commandos attacked a tourist hotel on the northern coast of Cuba on Mar. 11, marking the start of a campaign against the island's tourist industry. According to Alpha 66, no one was hurt in the attack from the commandos' small boat offshore or by the fire returned by Cuban security forces. "All the Cuban tourist centres are military objectives for Alpha 66," said the group's military chief, Humberto Perez. Perez said the attack was launched from a base located outside the US, though it was coordinated in Miami; US legislation prohibits the launching of armed attacks from US territory against nations that are not at war with the US. Alpha 66 had threatened to begin attacks against foreign tourists in Cuba beginning Nov. 27

BROTHERS TO THE RESCUE FLIGHTS PROHIBITED
At a Mar. 31 press conference in the Miami area, US representatives Lincoln Diaz-Balart and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, both Florida Republicans of Cuban-American origin, blasted the Pentagon's recent decision to prohibit flights to the migrant camps at the US Guantanamo naval base in Cuba by the Anti-Castro organization "Brothers to the Rescue." According to a letter from Under-Secretary of Defense H. Allen Holmes to Ros-Lehtinen, the group was banned from Guantanamo because the Cuban government formally complained to the US Interests Section in Havana that on Nov. 10, 1994, two of its planes tried to distribute leaflets not only over the camps on the US base, but also within Cuban territory.

ARMED PARAMILITARY COMMANDO ARRESTED IN CUBA
On Oct. 15, seven anti-Castro Cubans armed with automatic rifles landed illegally at Caibarien on Cuba's north central shore; they attempted to steal a vehicle, killed a local resident who was fishing, and were arrested several hours later after a shootout with Cuban authorities and a local guard. Three of the seven were slightly injured in the shootout. Cuban state-run media reported that the infiltrators were dressed in camouflage and armed with AK, M-16 and R-15 assault rifles, as well as pistols, military supplies and "enemy propaganda." Miami on Oct. 17, Sergio Gonzalez Rosquete of the Florida-based anti-Castro Democratic National Unity Party (PUND) said his organization was responsible for the action. ... On Oct. 18 Gonzalez explained that the commandos had departed on their mission from a third Caribbean country in order to avoid violating the US Neutrality Law, which prohibits launching armed actions from US territory against foreign countries.

CUBAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SAYS EXONERATION OF CUBAN ASSASSIN AND HIJACKER IN MIAMI EQUIVALENT TO CONDONING TERRORISM
Havana - Cuba has warned that the release of Leonel Macias who murdered Cuban navy officer and hijacked a vessel to the United States last August is equivalent to condoning terrorism. ... Leonel Macias assassinated Cuban navy officer Roberto Aguilar in Mariel Bay last August 8th and hijacked a vessel, later picking up 24 passengers. Foreign Ministry official Rafael Dausa told Cuban Radio Rebelde that Cuba presented a video, and eye witness statements concerning the murder and statements to the effect that Macias himself admitted shooting the Cuban navy officer, US courts, however, did not take this evidence into consideration. Three witnesses belonging to the same navy squadron as Macias, said the hijacker pulled out a gun and shot the only other armed member of the crew. Macias immediately pointed the gun at the three unarmed witnesses and ordered them to throw themselves overboard. Their statements were aired live on national TV in Cuba.

US GRANTS ASYLUM TO ALLEGED MURDERER
On Apr. 17, an INS appeals court granted political asylum to Leonel Macias Gonzalez, accused by the Cuban government of assaulting a government boat and murdering a Cuban naval official last Aug. 8. The 19-year old Cuban initially received asylum in February, but the US government had appealed the measure.

FLOTILLA ORGANIZED TO VIOLATE CUBAN JURISDICTION WASHINGTON -
Spokesmen of the "Antonio Maceo" Brigade, a moderate emigrant group ... said "paramilitary organizations" are preparing a caravan of vessels and airplanes with the purpose of violating the jurisdictional borders and the sovereignty of Cuba. According to the group, Raul Sanchez, one of the "flotilla" ringleaders, is a well-known terrorist who has been under federal investigations and in the 80s was put in jail for several months for these activities.

ARMED PARAMILITARY COMMANDOS ARRESTED
Seven anti-Castro Cubans armed with automatic weapons landed in Cuba on October 15, killing one local resident and attempting to steal a vehicle before Cuban authorities arrested them. The seven, captured after a shootout with security forces, left for Cuba from a third country in order to avoid violating the US Neutrality Law, which prohibits launching armed operations from the US. They are members of the Miami-based Democratic National Unity Party (PUND), which claimed responsibility for their action.

ARRESTED FOR TRYING TO BUY MISSILES
Two anti-Castro Cuban paramilitary leaders were arrested on June 2 in Miami on charges that they sought to buy a Stinger missile and other advanced weapons from an undercover US federal agent posing as a corrupt army sergeant. The two, Rodolfo Frometa and Fausto Marimon, are prominent members of Commandos F-4, a group that split off from another anti-Castro paramilitary organization, Alpha 66, earlier this spring. ... Frometa and marimon were among seven Alpha 66 members taken into custody after Coast guard officials found a cache of weapons, ammunition and money in their 18-foot boat, as they were en route to Cuba to carry out a military action.

TERRORISTS ATTEMPT TO FIREBOMB WAREHOUSE
On Nov. 2, FBI agents arrested three men from another rightwing terrorist organization in southern Florida as they attempted to firebomb a warehouse full of humanitarian aid collected by Cuban American seeking an end to the embargo. The aid was shipped to Cuba with the Pastors for Peace Friendshipment caravan ....

ANTI-CASTRO PARAMILITARIES SENTENCED IN FLORIDA
On Dec. 20, a federal judge in Miami sentenced two anti-Castro Cuban emigre paramilitary leaders for attempting to buy high- powered weapons from an undercover federal agent. The two, Rodolfo Frometa and Fausto Marimon, were arrested on June 2 and convicted in September. Leaders of the paramilitary group Commandos F-4, Frometa and Marimon planned to use the explosives, grenades, anti-tank missiles and other weapons for attacks on tourist spots in Cuba. Frometa was sentenced to three and a half years in prison, while Marimon got one year of prison and two of conditional liberty.

NEWSPAPER BOMBED
The New York offices of El Diario-La Prensa were bombed after the paper ran an editorial endorsing exile visits. The wording of the cover story in New Republic implicated wealthy Cuban exile leader Jorge Mas Canosa, dubbed by the magazine as "Clinton's Miami Mobster".

10 VIOLATIONS OF AIR SPACE REPORTED 1994-1996
A chronology posted by the Cuban Interest Section in Washington on the APC computer networks February 26, 1996, itemized 10 violations of Cuban air space from 1994 to 1996 alone: May 15, May 25, May 29, Nov 10 of 1994; April 4, July 13 of 1995; and Jan. 9 and 13 of 1996. Notification of almost all these incidents were sent by diplomatic note to the United States Interest Section in Havana soon after their occurrence.

CUBAN-AMERICAN CHARGED WITH PLOTTING CUBA INVASION
On Jan. 4, a federal judge denied bail to two of three Cuban- American accused of stockpiling an arsenal of weapons and masterminding a plan to invade Cuba and spark an armed rebellion against the government there. Rene Cruz, his son--also named Rene Cruz--and Rafael Garcia were arrested on Dec. 16 by FBI agents who raided the warehouse of Remarc International, a ... business in Huntington Beach owned by the older Cruz. The three face charges of conspiracy to violate the Neutrality Act; they could face up to eight years in prison if convicted. At the warehouse federal agents seized three MAC-90 "sniper" rifles, 18 AK-47 assault rifles, a number of hand grenades and 14,000 rounds of ammunition, plus bullet-proof vests, radio equipment, maps of Cuba, air navigation maps, night vision glasses, and plans in Spanish detailing an invasion of Cuba.

BROTHERS ON THE ATTACK
On March 7, 1996, CBC Radio reported that "Havana accuses pilots with Brothers to the Rescue of firing on civilians in Cuba, setting fire to crops, spreading chemical defoliants on Cuban soil and dropping propaganda leaflets." CBC also reported that Brothers to the Rescue had dropped an explosive device over Cuba, but did not cite details.

(snip/...)

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/142.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can be sure I've got TONS of items to post.

Here's a list of only SOME of the terrorism conducted by Miami "exiles" within the States over political matters:

Mullin
The Burden of a Violent History
By Jim Mullin
Article Published Apr 20, 2000

1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan José Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter, which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba, attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the Lincoln-Martí private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations with Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction of paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of a conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.
(snip/)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin_2.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit: I just remembered the first article only goes to 1996, so it doesn't include more recent acts of terrorism like the Cubans caught in Panama, all terrorists, including former CIA employee, and bomber/mass murderer Luis Posada Carriles with a sufficient amount of plastic bomb material in their plot to bomb the completely filled huge auditorium in which Fidel Castro was scheduled to speak.

I forgot the fact the Cubans in Miami started hiring poor men from Latin America to become their bomb workers in Cuba, carrying in and planting bombs, and blowing up the place. Some of them have been caught, tried, and confessed to their crimes and who hired them.

I have not includedd events like recent capture of Miami Cuban "exiles" found fully armed IN CUBA who got there by boat, sneaking around to commit mayhem there.

I didn't include the boasts from one of the terrorists groups in Miami that they found a Cuban spy who had returned home to Cuba and had gone there and shot him to death.

There is a very, very long list.

[Judi Lynn]

129. I'm really curious about why the conversation was hijacked by a completely

bogus claim about Hugo Chavez giving Cuba "military jurisprudence" in Venezuela. Apparently it was an act of desperation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2050927#2070280

[Judi Lynn]

119. Look at what I just found. I think you might be interested.

Venezuela has been selling oil to countries in the Caribbean and Central America at preferred rates SINCE 1980, which was WELL BEFORE HUGO CHAVEZ WAS ELECTED. I knew this, and just stumbled across an article pointing it out, all over again. Very timely. :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Venezuela Insists on Cuba's Admission to San Jose Pact
By Luis Cordova, IPS, 6 August 1999
CARACAS, Aug 6 (IPS) - Venezuela will continue to insist that Mexico agree to allow Cuba and other nations to join the San Jose Pact, through which the two countries sell oil to 11 Central American and Caribbean nations under preferential conditions.

The Pact was officially renewed by presidents Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico and Hugo Chavez of Venezuela Thursday, without any of the changes suggested by Caracas.

Venezuela has proposed to Mexico the expansion of the accord to other Caribbean nations, including Cuba, Deputy Minister of Foreign Relations Jorge Valero said Friday. But Mexico raised objections to the inclusion of Cuba.

He clarified, however, that the question had already been discussed and agreed, and that there was no dispute with respect to the contents of the accord.

Mexico's objections involve the financing possibilities contemplated by the Pact and the mechanism for supplying crude oil to Cuba.

The Venezuelan government will continue insisting on the expediency and possibility of expanding the Pact to other countries, including Cuba, when it is renewed again in August 2000.

On Jul 6, Chavez announced his proposal to expand the Pact to other nations, including Cuba, because it is part of the Caribbean.

The San Jose Pact, or Programme of Energy Cooperation with the Countries of Central America and the Caribbean, has been in effect since 1980, and Mexico and Venezuela have renewed it every year in early August.
(snip/...)

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/154.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



So what have we learned? This "preferred rates" arrangement PREDATES Hugo Chavez, and originally involved COUNTRIES OTHER THAN CUBA. NOT CUBA. NOPE.

CUBA WAS ADDED much later.

[Piotr]

122. Actually, I do find it interesting. Now you find that Chávez is forging

links with Cuba, through his own volition. You must also remember that Venezuela is not selling oil to Cuba, but exchanging it for Cubans- not to mention all the other deals that exist between them. Cuba is virtually living off Venezuela now, since Cuba profits more from these relationships than does Venezuela.

[Flanker]

125. No, it is almost half and half

Half hard cash the rest is bartered. How can Cuba own Venezuela dollars if all they do is barter?

[Judi Lynn]

128. You're actually wrong about that. Cuba also pays for the oil it buys.

You need to go back to reread your information.

Cuba also sends doctors all over the third world, not just Venezuela. They even have brought people from the nuclear accident in Ukraine to Cuba to repair their bodies and help them back to health as well as possible.

They also have a famous world-class level of medical research in Cuba, in case you've not heard.

They instruct people all over the world, not just Venezuela, in both organic agriculture, and small, urban plot and container vegetable gardens.

[Piotr]

133. But in these numbers? 35,000 doctors? trainers? advisors?

Also, that's about one doctor per 714 people, one in 571 taking into account that it was designed to treat the barrios specifically. In any case, with these doctors being more about prevention medicine, light treatment, the fact that some of them are not qualified under law to serve as doctors in Venezuela (ie, aren't qualified to hold a license in Venezuela- this case was brought up to the Supreme Court of Justice by the Venezuelan Doctors' Association and won, but dismissed by Chávez), and the fact that there have been cases of severe, if isolated, malpractice related to them- are you certain that this is how a country should take care of the health of its people? Not mentioning the occasional taking patients-to-Cuba operations, nor the progressively deteriorating state of Venezuelan public hospitals and ambulatorios...

What has this medical research being carried out in Cuba been about, specifically? I'm curious;

Yes; sorry, I forgot that Cuba also pays in part for the doctors. However, Cuba has had delays and very big debts in these payments, which have been criticized.

[Flanker]

136. Preventitive medicine and light treatment is better

Than the alternative which was none or little. I don't see how you can attack this (not the opposition never learns) Barrio Adentro is easily the most popular mision next to Mercal, people that frequent it come away very satisfied as evidenced by statistical surveys. As for Hospitals they are not "detiriorating" basically because originally there was little to nothing in them, plus the overcrowding without misiones. BA II has made some strides with small ambulatorios.

[Judi Lynn]

137. Very interesting info. Thanks a lot. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

140. "barrios"?

When I studied Spanish, we were repeatedly told that barrio means "neighborhood." In the USA, it has come to mean "poor Spanish-speaking neighborhood."

Did Venezuelan medical care just begin deteriorating? Or has that been happening a very long time. For the poor, that is.

[Flanker]

145. Barrios in Venezuela has always meant really poor neighborhoods

As for the medical care it has been deteriorating for decades, I once visited a Hospital in May 99 where they didn't even have mattresses for patients. Really sad and depressing. Clinics (what private hospitals are called in Ven) do much better obviously.

[Piotr]

146. True; it has been deteriorating for decades; however, there was a time

When they were better funded, so to speak. The government could do something about that infrastructure and those resources; after all, it is there- ...

[Piotr]

115. The other links are there for purpose of Cuban presence. Read the Laws,

or get someone to translate them, in order to see what Cuban authorities are authorized to do in Venezuela (and Venezuelans in Cuba, reciprocally).

[Judi Lynn]

117. I'm confident if there was something explosive going on, Bush's State

Department would have already found a way to make sure everyone in the world had heard about it. They are not operating in silence there in Venezuela and Cuba, after all. They have _Bush breathing down their necks,
staring over their shoulders, 24/7.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to say "no" to propaganda, and I'm not going to go get someone to read your Cuba claptrap for me, in order to see what lies are being written in Spanish.

If there was something worthy of outrage, _Bush would have exploited it already and built an invasion campaign around it.

[Piotr]

121. I think Bush is busy with other things, like Iraq and unpopularity, to be

looking for more enemies. Not to mention that Bush's government is quite inefficent, and that information on Venezuela from something other than a gubernatorial perspective is relatively scant. The links to the Laws are not a Cuba claptrap; they link to the National Assembly's website, where you can look up all laws proposed, passed , or currently in debate- in Spanish, of course. Those laws are in effect right now.

[Judi Lynn]

130. To the contrary, Bush will make time to crush a leftist President if the

opportunity avails itself. Look what he did to President Aristide. Shame, evil, hideous shame upon shame.

[Piotr]

131. As far as I know, Bush did nothing to Aristide. Also,

Aristide ran Haiti like Al Capone ran the mafia, or so I gather from experiences told by Haitians I know.

[Judi Lynn]

132. The DU'ers who came together to study the Haitian invasion and catastrophe

arrived at different conclusions from yours, which seems to support the _Bush way of managing the planet. I only have enough time to drop off one article, but you can be sure there so many, many more available on the "internetS:"

Haiti After the Coup
Eighteen months of horror, backed by the U.S.
by Yves Engler
Z magazine, October 2005

~snip~
The Bush administration responded to Aristide's overwhelming victory by inviting anti-Lavalas opposition figurehead and fringe party leader Leslie Manigat to George W. Bush's inauguration ceremony in Washington. Then in October 2001 Bush appointed neoconservative Roger Noriega as U.S. ambassador to the OAS. Noriega (who worked closely with the racist anti-Aristide Senator Jesse Helms) co-authored OAS Resolutions 806 and 822. These resolutions required Haiti's elected government to make decisions together with the opposition, giving non-elected parties an effective veto over resumption of foreign assistance to the Haitian government.
The November 2002 inauguration of the Haiti Democracy Project (HDP), sponsored by the Washington-based Brookings Institution, intensified the destabilization campaign. The HDP's anti-Lavalas propaganda was and continues to be quoted regularly in the North American media. The HDP, with its powerful political connections (U.S. -Haiti Ambassador Timothy M. Carney was a founding board member) lobbied on behalf of Haiti's newly formed "civil society" Group of 184. IRI also helped establish G-184 by organizing a secret (later revealed) meeting in the Dominican Republic of representatives from business, student, and other groups that would spawn the group. When G-184 made its public debut, its spokesperson was Andy Apaid, Jr., owner of several Port-au-Prince sweatshops who was later linked to the funding and arming of anti-Lavalas death squads. Still, many North American NGOs that usually receive government money took up the anti-Lavalas mantra of this "civil society" grouping.
At the same time that the U.S. enforced an economic embargo and built the political opposition, armed thugs, mostly from the former military (that Aristide disbanded in 1995), tried to overthrow the government through violence. In October 2000, Guy Phillippe, who was trained by the U.S. military in Ecuador, and a handful of former Haitian soldiers fled the country after their plot was uncovered; on July 28, 2001 there were several attacks on police stations near the Haitian/Dominican border; on December 17, 2001 Guy Philippe was implicated in another coup attempt. This last one was perhaps the most serious, as a reported 39 armed attackers stormed the national palace, killing 4 people and briefly occupying the building. In July 2003 the country's main hydro-electric plant was attacked, leaving a number of employees dead.
As the armed attacks weakened the elected government, on January 31, 2003, Canada's secretary of state for Latin America and La Francophonie, Denis Paradis, played host to a high-level roundtable meeting dubbed the Ottawa Initiative on Haiti. The U. S., Canada, and France were represented at the meetings, but no one from Haiti's elected government was invited. According to an article in Quebec's L'Actualité Magazine, Aristide's departure, the need for a potential trusteeship over Haiti, and the return of Haiti's dreaded military were discussed.
Prior to the Ottawa meetings, - France and Canada had joined the U.S. destabilization campaign. They terminated aid to the Aristide government, instead dealing directly with Haitian NGOs mostly aligned with the minority anti-Aristide movement. Tens of millions of dollars poured into these U.S. -backed "civil society" groups.
The International Foundation for Electoral Systems (IFES), a U.S.-based tax-exempt organization that claims to provide "targeted technical assistance to strengthen transitional democracies," played a prominent role in strengthening the opposition. IFES administrators told a University of Miami School of Law investigation, "We put Aristide in a bad situation" by uniting "all forces against Aristide." IFES staff, according to the Miami investigation, "want to take credit for the ouster of Aristide, but cannot 'out of respect for the wishes of the U.S. government' " - the government that gives IFES millions to operate.
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/Haiti_After_Coup.html

[Piotr]

134. And none of you lived in Haiti, I gather. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

135. On the contrary, one of the finest posters at DU was very, very deeply

involved. We were all very aware she herself comes from Haiti, and has been back many times. She is completely well respected around here, and would be anywhere she goes.

You really wouldn't want to turn any condescension or sarcasm on her, I can assure you.

[Piotr]

139. Alright. No need to get defensive;

What did she say of conditions in Aristide's Haiti? My Haitian friend said she and her family, as well as many around her, had to live in constant fear of both kidnappers who invaded houses on a regualr basis and the police, which was worse than the kidnappers.

[K-W]

144. Then you know almost nothing about Haiti. EOM

[Psephos]

97. "The checks are his own people, simple as that."

Yeah, sure, the people have all the power. The 20th Century is one long history book about how much power "the people" have against the state when government is run by one party. Re-open that book and re-learn its lesson: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

My concern is not about Chavez but about a government that has consolidated its power in one party, and actively promoted a cult of personality around its leader. Like his mentor, Fidel, Chavez clearly thinks being President for Life (or at least for a Good Long Time) is a great idea. As did Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu, Suharto, Savimbi, Sese Seko, Bokassa, Al-Assad, Papa Doc, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum. With his supermajority, Chavez has the power to change the constitution at will. And with oil at record prices he has the ability to throw money wherever domestic political fires might start. Think about that. He's the Chairman of the Board and the CEO of the Fearless Leader Corporation.

You think we must trust Hugo. I say I trust no one with great power and no opposition - especially someone whose actions the past few years have been increasingly scary. To me, such an attitude of skepticism is heart and soul of the progressive philosophy. What kind of progressive thinks concentration of power in one man is a good thing?

"In what world are you living? I did not vote and it sure as hell not indicative of what you stated, a better adjective might be lazyness. 40% never vote, 10-20% only vote on presidential elections, 10% on close elections and 5-10% abstained due to the boycott."

Wow, you twist numbers and assumptions with such dexterity - it's like rolling a cigarette, after you've done it enough, it becomes automatic. Let's see, with a sample size of one (you) you extrapolate laziness as the prime cause of poll abandonment. That takes care of four million people right there. Next, reach up into thin air and pull down another 20% only interested in voting for El Presidente, another 10% only interested if there's an actual horse race, and 5-10% boycotters.

Hey, if one reads it really fast, it doesn't sound that bad. Except that you MADE UP the numbers yourself, and assumed that because they seem "reasonable" to you, then they are reasonable, and reasonable is pretty much the same thing as true, so they are true (more or less), and now that's settled, and it all makes perfect sense, come to think of it.

Here's a missing, but crucial fact. Historical parliamentary election turnout in Venezuela is 50%-60%. So much for your assumptions.

Skepticism is the engine of scientific inquiry. There's a reason fundamentalists dispense with skepticism when interpreting holy books. We should not make the same mistake regarding politics.

"I guess it was also lost on every rational observer of the election, including the OAS and EU."

Now it's my turn to ask which world *you* live in, because in my world, the election, while nominally deemed electorally valid, was also the subject of much debate over irregularities and suppressions.

You might take a look here for an NPOV article; the references cited at bottom are useful, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_parliamentary_election,_2005

I'm not likely to convince you of anything here, Flanker; you seem to have a lot invested in supporting Chavez, which makes it seem to me that this is a matter decided by emotion, not reason. So be it. I'm also not certain I'm correct, and I AM certain I'm at least part wrong, because everyone is always part wrong in anything they believe. But I am calling it as I see it. If I see it differently in the future because of better information, then I will call it differently.

However, if others reading this thread are still trying to decide whether Chavez is an exception to the rule, or just more of the same-ol', same ol' with better PR, then I hope they will seek out neutral (neither pro-Chavez or con-Chavez) sources of information, and ask themselves once more: is concentration of power without checks and balances a force for good?

These are my opinions, nothing more, nothing less, nothing personal.

Peace.




edit: typo

[Flanker]

102. There is the difference

"Yeah, sure, the people have all the power. The 20th Century is one long history book about how much power "the people" have against the state when government is run by one party. Re-open that book and re-learn its lesson: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I don't view 20th century history or whatever as anything relevant. I view it entirely on studying Venezuela, I am not someone that goes he is "a" president, Bush is a president therefore he is evil.

Besides there are plenty of single party leaderships throught history FDR having run one.

"My concern is not about Chavez but about a government that has consolidated its power in one party, and actively promoted a cult of personality around its leader. Like his mentor, Fidel, Chavez clearly thinks being President for Life (or at least for a Good Long Time) is a great idea. As did Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu, Suharto, Savimbi, Sese Seko, Bokassa, Al-Assad, Papa Doc, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum. With his supermajority, Chavez has the power to change the constitution at will. And with oil at record prices he has the ability to throw money wherever domestic political fires might start. Think about that. He's the Chairman of the Board and the CEO of the Fearless Leader Corporation."

So what do you propose to end democratic consolidation? a coup? His power is nowhere near as absolute as you think, I can think of 5 independent entities that counter balance that power, 3 currently side with him, People, congress, international community, opposed by the media and the US government.

"
You think we must trust Hugo. I say I trust no one with great power and no opposition - especially someone whose actions the past few years have been increasingly scary. To me, such an attitude of skepticism is heart and soul of the progressive philosophy. What kind of progressive thinks concentration of power in one man is a good thing?
"

What kind of progressive distrusts democracy?

"Hey, if one reads it really fast, it doesn't sound that bad. Except that you MADE UP the numbers yourself, and assumed that because they seem "reasonable" to you, then they are reasonable, and reasonable is pretty much the same thing as true, so they are true (more or less), and now that's settled, and it all makes perfect sense, come to think of it."

Is it any better than your assumption? (ie 75% abstention equal 75% distrust?) mine does take account historical turnout.

"Here's a missing, but crucial fact. Historical parliamentary election turnout in Venezuela is 50%-60%. So much for your assumptions."

Nope, those are the turnout for MEGA-elections, including those were Chavez is on the ballot, purely parliamentary elections have much lower turnout, anywhere from 30% to 35%. The regional elections last year are a lot closer comparison and turnout was 30%.

"Skepticism is the engine of scientific inquiry. There's a reason fundamentalists dispense with skepticism when interpreting holy books. We should not make the same mistake regarding politics."

I agree skepticism is a good thing, but there comes a stage that skepticism over the law of gravity is a waste of resources :)

"Now it's my turn to ask which world *you* live in, because in my world, the election, while nominally deemed electorally valid, was also the subject of much debate over irregularities and suppressions."

All elections have irregularities, no thing is perfect much less a nationwide event, however the will of the people was represented and that is why it was deemed valid.

"I'm not likely to convince you of anything here, Flanker; you seem to have a lot invested in supporting Chavez, which makes it seem to me that this is a matter decided by emotion, not reason. So be it. I'm also not certain I'm correct, and I AM certain I'm at least part wrong, because everyone is always part wrong in anything they believe. But I am calling it as I see it. If I see it differently in the future because of better information, then I will call it differently."

Oh so you know what I feel? that is comical, here is a hint I have never voted for him nor the MVR, spin that. Also I also agree that I am generally part wrong, I am not perfect.

"However, if others reading this thread are still trying to decide whether Chavez is an exception to the rule, or just more of the same-ol', same ol' with better PR, then I hope they will seek out neutral (neither pro-Chavez or con-Chavez) sources of information, and ask themselves once more: is concentration of power without checks and balances a force for good?"

So you do admit that you are trying to convince people? It seems that you are the one emotionally invested in this endeavor.

[Judi Lynn]

106. I nearly swallowed my tongue reading the accusation of wild-eyed,

raving emotionalism lobbed at you. Anyone who read your remarks would spot that one as a crude act of a desperate person, as the very LAST impression coming to mind would be that you are simply out of your depths emotionally and unable to grasp simple truths, out there attempting to drag other emotionally disturbed people into your world-view!

Omigod!

Very glad you saw that one. There are some who will stop at nothing, respect no normal, sensible guidelines in trying to get the upper hand, however outlandish it may be.

You are steady enough to realize that one was extremely undeserved, and unacceptable. It registered as shocking, being that bizarre. Appreciate your very measured response.

[Psephos]

113. In the spirit of discussion...

I make a strong distinction between you and your views, which is worth remembering as we continue this discussion. :-)


"I don't view 20th century history or whatever as anything relevant."

There's not much I can add to that.


"So what do you propose to end democratic consolidation? a coup? His power is nowhere near as absolute as you think, I can think of 5 independent entities that counter balance that power, 3 currently side with him, People, congress, international community, opposed by the media and the US government."

The coup has already been tried. At minimum, a coup is a signal that something is rotten in Denmark, so to speak. Whether that rottenness is with the target or the instigators is a matter of opinion. Meanwhile, I have to take your word about the independent entities, because they seem ineffectual at best from my purview.


"What kind of progressive distrusts democracy?"

Do you not sense the irony of posting that question on DU? I can give you about 30 million Democrats who distrust democracy after the last few elections here in the US.


"Is it any better than your assumption? (ie 75% abstention equal 75% distrust?) mine does take account historical turnout."

Actually, by my figuring, about one out of two who stayed home did so for reasons of distrust. I used the historical parliamentary election turnout numbers supplied by neutral references cited in the Wikipedia article previously mentioned (50%-60%), and approximated from those (25% turnout is about half the norm). I could be wrong. As a Venezuelan national, your opinion carries weight, but I much prefer actual numbers, which I obtained from the most neutral sources I could find.


"I agree skepticism is a good thing, but there comes a stage that skepticism over the law of gravity is a waste of resources :)"

True. Unfortunately, the act of political alignment interferes with the ability to determine when skepticism is warranted. The only sure approach is vigilant skepticism, applied uniformly. Check out this recent research, for a taste of what I mean: http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060124_political_decisions.html

Here's a good discussion of it, too, on Slashdot:
http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/25/1311231


"All elections have irregularities, no thing is perfect much less a nationwide event, however the will of the people was represented and that is why it was deemed valid."

I agree. However, your phrasing in the earlier post made it sound like EU and OAS/Carter Center rubberstamped the election and had no misgivings. That's simply not true. Only MVR was ecstatic about the result.


"Oh so you know what I feel? that is comical, here is a hint I have never voted for him nor the MVR, spin that. Also I also agree that I am generally part wrong, I am not perfect."

I don't know what you feel, only what you say. There is a curious phenomenon that occurs when one tries to understand why another holds the views they hold. Any mention of the word "emotion" seems to send a trigger for indignant reaction. (See downthread for a prime example.) Yet political decisions are by nature not made rationally; they're made from the gut and the heart, and then we select only those facts which support our decision. I don't have a problem with this, it's our neurobiology. To me, a decision made emotionally is a natural and potent decision. Stating that is not an insult; it's a recognition. But we should not play the game of pretending we arrived at our decisions only by some algebra and a sober distillation of the facts.


"So you do admit that you are trying to convince people?"

Absolutely. That's a given in any forum discussion.

"It seems that you are the one emotionally invested in this endeavor."

Again, absolutely. That also is a given in any forum discussion. I hope we can both now agree that emotion is not a bad thing. :-) In truth, it's the driving force behind political discussion. Otherwise, people wouldn't get so upset, eh?

I have a feeling that over a few cervezas we would find much in common, in our general views, as well as those concerning Venezuela and Chavez. But the anonymous forum format emphasizes differences, and I have followed that form here, as have you.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree on some things here. Believe it or not, your posts are spurring me to check again some of the sources that underlie my opinions, and as I said earlier, if I see things differently as a result, I will call them differently as a result.

Meanwhile, it is my nature to not reach quickly for the handle of a pot when I remember burning my hand in the past. I see warning signs in Venezuela that do not absolutely foretell an ominous future, but rather, suggest that we should pay much closer attention, now that the ruling party and president have acquired so much power. Paying closer attention also means examining the motives of the president's and the MVR's political acts, rather than just reading their press releases. To argue otherwise seems to me to throw caution to the wind.

Peace.

[Judi Lynn]

114. Your deep concern for the well-being of Venezuelan citizens would have

been appropriately engaged during the Presidency of Carlos Andres Perez, against whom Hugo Chavez lead a coup, after the man had devastated the majority of Venezuelans by more than doubling the cost of their only transportation, the public buses, as well as utilities. When they were crushed and outraged and moved into the streets to protest, he had his military fire into crowds, killing between 200 (his government's claim) and thousands (estimates from the public sector).

He later was impeached for gross corruption and embezzlement.

Right-wing idiots often point to the coup attempt, and completely withhold all information on the vicious thug who brought it on himself, and nearly wrecked the country.

Your impressive depth of compassion and concern for Venezuelans would have been well placed here.

On edit: Adding photos of a Venezuelan President who would have deserved your words of caution, and alarm, Carlos Andres Perez, impeached, and out of there.





Making a very long distance call to his conscience.

[Flanker]

120. Very well

"The coup has already been tried. At minimum, a coup is a signal that something is rotten in Denmark, so to speak. Whether that rottenness is with the target or the instigators is a matter of opinion. Meanwhile, I have to take your word about the independent entities, because they seem ineffectual at best from my purview."

You have not answered how would you propose to break up democratically elected institutions? a military coup? a civilian coup? and auto-coup?

"Do you not sense the irony of posting that question on DU? I can give you about 30 million Democrats who distrust democracy after the last few elections here in the US."

Funny I don't think the 2000 elections represented a democratically elected leader. Democracy is the will of the people, not legal technicalities of the EC.

"Actually, by my figuring, about one out of two who stayed home did so for reasons of distrust. I used the historical parliamentary election turnout numbers supplied by neutral references cited in the Wikipedia article previously mentioned (50%-60%), and approximated from those (25% turnout is about half the norm). I could be wrong. As a Venezuelan national, your opinion carries weight, but I much prefer actual numbers, which I obtained from the most neutral sources I could find."

All of the elections in Wikipedia had national implications (ie exectutive involved) you have to go back much farther to find purely congressional elections. The closest thing was the regional elections there was no calls for boycott and the abstention was 5% lower.

"I agree. However, your phrasing in the earlier post made it sound like EU and OAS/Carter Center rubberstamped the election and had no misgivings. That's simply not true. Only MVR was ecstatic about the result."

The irregularities were minimal however, Carter stated that it was the cleanest election he had ever monitored (the referendum) put a magnifying glass on any election and the result might even be worse.

"Yet political decisions are by nature not made rationally; they're made from the gut and the heart, and then we select only those facts which support our decision. I don't have a problem with this, it's our neurobiology. To me, a decision made emotionally is a natural and potent decision. Stating that is not an insult; it's a recognition. But we should not play the game of pretending we arrived at our decisions only by some algebra and a sober distillation of the facts."

Like I said I am not perfect, but most of my conclusions are derived with on an open mind looking at the facts.

"Absolutely. That's a given in any forum discussion."

Well it isn't for me, I come here because I enjoy debate, not because I want to convince the other guy or a third party.

"Again, absolutely. That also is a given in any forum discussion. I hope we can both now agree that emotion is not a bad thing. :-) In truth, it's the driving force behind political discussion. Otherwise, people wouldn't get so upset, eh?"

I particularly dislike emotional discourse, nothing worth getting upset about but it is certainly less enjoyable.

"I have no problem agreeing to disagree on some things here. Believe it or not, your posts are spurring me to check again some of the sources that underlie my opinions, and as I said earlier, if I see things differently as a result, I will call them differently as a result."

I respect your open mindedness.

"Meanwhile, it is my nature to not reach quickly for the handle of a pot when I remember burning my hand in the past. I see warning signs in Venezuela that do not absolutely foretell an ominous future, but rather, suggest that we should pay much closer attention, now that the ruling party and president have acquired so much power. Paying closer attention also means examining the motives of the president's and the MVR's political acts, rather than just reading their press releases. To argue otherwise seems to me to throw caution to the wind."

Sure, if you want to learn more the best places are those that carry on a detailed discussion about the subject, while I would not recommend message forums since the big ones are in castillian/spanish and DEEPLY polarized I have found two "somewhat" reasonable weblogs, although still emotional.

pro-chavez
oilwars.blogspot.com

anti-chavez
caracaschronicles.blogspot.com

Chavez can very well become a dictator, just like most other leaders on earth, predicting this outcome is already a 7 year old tradition, and after the coups, lockouts, oil shut down etc Democracy is still there. The slippery slope gets tiresome after a while.

[zanne]

104. Sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say...

I'm sure there are Limbaugh-like politicians in Venezuela, too.

[rman]

103. Helping Vermonters is not at the expense of poor Venezuelans

In the mean time in Venezuela, schools and hospitals are being build in poor neighborhoods, small loans given to start small businesses, subsidized food provided to the poor.

[ronnie624]

25. President Chavez understands the need

of an effective public relations campaign.

The attempts to demonize him by the U.S. propagandists must be countered in some way.

[Psephos]

31. Now that I can agree with completely

Politics is the art of perception management. No politician progresses far without realizing that. It's neither good nor bad, it simply is.

Peace.


edit: typo

[Judi Lynn]

32. Venezuela was contacted by Democratic Congressmen in search

of more humane rates for their poorer constituents, AFTER they requested these same lower rates for winter fuel heating of the five largest oil companies in the United States and got blown off.

[ronnie624]

44. I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity of Hugo Chavez.

I am also aware of the requests by certain congressmen on behalf of their constituents. How shameful and sad that the oil companies cannot be bothered to share a portion of their tens of billions per year in profits to help the poor.

I scan LBN daily for your posts on Latin America which I find most infomative. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

[Judi Lynn]

50. You're right about the oil companies. No sense of community whatsoever.

After all, are they their brothers' keepers? It's strictly every man (corporation) for himself.

I didn't know one thing about Latin America and U.S. policy until Elián Gonzalez arrived in Florida, and the pushing and shoving started. When I read in a paper that his great uncle, the Little Havana Miami chronic drunk had actually met the little boy before, AT HIS OWN HOME IN CUBA, when the old #### had been down there on vacation, and that the kid's dad had even given him his own bedroom, and slept in his own car, to make room for the guy, and that the old drunken great uncle, Lázaro, spent his days fishing, and his nights hanging around in the bars and hotel lounges, it changed my entire perspective, because I knew I HAD BEEN LIED TO, for years and years and YEARS.

How scary IS it in Cuba, if the same people who "defected" to the United States ALSO have been going back to Cuba on vacation? That was a growing up experience. Happened in 1999, I think. Since then, I've been reading as much as time allows, fully aware now, that if the government lied to us about Cuba, they also lied to us about the rest of Latin America, as well. Everything I have read since then only confirms my suspicions.

I'm so glad to hear this area has been of great interest to you, too. Thank you for your very, very kind comment.

Welcome to DU! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Solon]

57. Hey Judi, here's a good movie with good info you can download...

Venezuela Bolivariana: People and Struggle of the Fourth World War (Venezuela 2004)

http://www.archive.org/details/Venezuela_Bolivariana_VEN_2004

Its on the Internet Archive and licensed for Non-Commercial Distribution, big download though, hope you have broadband, I recommend the MPEG1 or 2 download personally, for the subtitles are hard to read on the others(My Spanish is rudimentary at best), but good if you want to get the "on the street" opinion of this movement.

Couple of things I noticed is that for many in the Southern Hemisphere, worldwide, that Neo-liberal globalization is usually called "The Fourth World War" a war that the corporations are waging against the poor. Its a very informative film, I recommend it.

[Judi Lynn]

59. Wow. I'm attempting to download it right now. I'm 17% through.

I've never successfully done this, yet, and I sure hope this one will work.

It sounds exceptional. We get so precious little which sheds real light here. If I don't get this done the first time, I'm going to try again.

Thanks for this link. Sure hope I will see it, and many other DU'ers, too.

[Judi Lynn]

60. Hey! I'm on my second attempt to download it!

Not going to give up. This looks too important to miss. Thanks, again.

[Solon]

61. Try a download manager that allows resume if it doesn't work...

Usually for movies of this size I use bittorrent, but this is unfortunately a direct download.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Wow! I just finished looking at it, THE FIRST TIME.

Sat with tears in my eyes multiple times. I am so fortunate I happened to see your post with that important link, and I surely hope other DU'ers will take the time to download it and watch it themselves.

It's simply wonderful, and delivers some very helpful information many people probably haven't heard yet, in the U.S.
It also answered some questions, and confirmed some suspicions I've had, as well.

Could NOT be better. Thank you so much. :hi:

[Solon]

62. Wanna know how bad the propoganda is?

Check this out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_War_(arcade_game)

You can play a video game as Fidel Castro or Che!!!! How cool is that! :)

BTW: I use MAME, and play the Japanese version, of course.

ON EDIT: Copy and paste the ENTIRE link including parentheses, apparently DU can't do links with them in it.

[0rganism]

36. Yeppers. I tend to think of it as part of his "defense budget"

bushco would love to get their hands on Venezuela again, but Chavez is using the will of Americans against them.

[Jade Fox]

101. "defense budget"

Oh, that's good. I agree. Brilliant foreign policy move on the part of Chavez.

Why can't we have leaders that are smart and creative like that? :shrug: Oh,right. It's more important that our elected officials go around spouting "moral values", whether or not they actually follow those values, than be smart competent leaders. Silly me for forgetting what's really important!:eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

34. That appalling condition happened during the decades of rule by

a very small group of European-descended Venezuelans who continue to have absolute contempt for the poor. There's a very LARGE mess to clean up which they created. It took a long time to get this unbelievably awful, and it's going to take a cluster of years to get the victems of the oligarchy out of the hole dug for them.

Obviously, if a great movement had not been set in place, things would look like your photos forever, or even worse. It's clear the oligarchy couldn't care less. Just like American Republicans.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VENEZUELA: The fight on poverty


Stuart Munckton

On June 1, 20,686 people graduated from Mission Ribas, which gives poor Venezuelans their first chance to pass high school. One of the most obvious aspects of Venezuela’s Bolivarian revolution, led by President Hugo Chavez, the social missions are changing the face of Venezuelan society.

Chavez recently announced that Ribas, which provides free education, including food, accommodation and travel, will have its budget increased to US$50 million a month. The vast majority of Mission Ribas graduates have now enrolled in Mission Sucre, which provides university education. By the end of the year, 210,000 will graduate from Ribas.

On the June 12 episode of television program Hello President, Chavez noted the beginning of the second phase of the community health-care program Mission Barrio Adentro and announced plans for the third phase, which will revamp Venezuela’s faltering hospital system.

A February opinion poll released by Datanalysis — a company associated with Chavez’s opponents — found support for Chavez at 70.5%, an increase on the 60% support Chavez received in a August referendum. The reason for the growth can be guessed: Datanalysis found that 73% of the population had benefited from the social missions.
(snip/...)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/632/632p19.htm

[Flanker]

66. Wow 60 Billion?

And here I thought Borges 16 billion was just fuzzy math and nonsense, oh and work was being done on the bridge, but recent rains made the work impossible to finish. No country could have maintained that bridge operational based on the circumstances.

[Piotr]

73. Sorry, my mistake.

16 billion, not 60 billion.

The government has had 8 years to come up with an alternative route; those repairs were at least 3 years overdue compared to the original architect's prediction.

[Flanker]

76. 16 Billion figure is still an unsubstantiated number

And it was made up on the spot to capitalize on the Bolivia aid. It includes investments, loans and barters.

As for the government incompetence with regard to the viaducto1 I disagree, the alternate route is the old road perhaps overtaxed but still enough to handle 90% of the traffic which was repaired years ago, not to mention the contingency road being built between point A and B of the collapsed structure itself, it was slated to be finished in a few months. The repairs on the viaduct itself started in 2002 but it was not enough to stop the acceleration of the terrain, which as pointed out was 25 cm on that day.

[Judi Lynn]

80. Tremendous post, excellent information. n/t

[Piotr]

89. If you want me to do calculations,then I will,

although it will take some time and the overall validity might be suspect (I will search based on newspaper articles or "online articles" of the last year). But I will do it. I don't doubt that Chávez is capable of giving away (or practically giving away) such a large amount of Venezuela's money outside.

Regarding the viaduct: It's not the same when a trip through there takes an average of four hours, compared to the previous average hour and a half through the viaduct, when the road is closed from 12:00am to 6:00am, and when rig trucks have to pass at dawn, before the cars (which have to wait until they have passed). The contingency road was being built to service the viaduct, not as an original alternative road; And the focus of those services was to slow down the collapse of the viaduct, not to restore it (ie, to make sure the viaduct went down easy). Still, there is negligence.

[K-W]

92. Trade and Diplomacy DO help Venezuala. What a rediculous talking point.

...but why doesn't he help Venezuelans instead?

Instead? What are you talking about. Plenty of Venezuala's resources (and way more than ever before) are going into domestic programs. And it isnt as if he is giving anything away here, he is giving poor people a discount. He is a socialist, not a capitalist, so expecting him to maximize profit and exploit poor Americans is a bit odd.

Last year, he gave away 60 billion dollars' worth of money to foreign countries for different things

So?

Edit: I see that it isnt even true.

(he handles Venezuelan taxpayers' money as if it were his own personal treasury)

Bullshit.

when Venezuela could have used it, to say the least;

Venezuala is a rich country that can afford to fund social programs whilest still using money for humanitarian and diplomatic purposes abroad.

and Evo Morales' previous international tour was paid off in full by Venezuela: 30 million dollars. Now, do you think that is good, with all the poverty and need and lack of economic development in Venezuela?

Poverty is being reduced in Venezuala and the economy is indeed being developed. You are acting as if it is a third world country with no resources. That may have been the case when profiteers were running things, but it isnt the case now.

Do you think that Venezuela should be so full of poverty at a time when it is receiving the most income through oil compared to previous governments?

Of course not, and niether does Chavez(its sorta why they put him in office) so what on earth are you talking about?

It is fiendish to spin the generosity of the Venezualan government as some kind of mismanagement by Chavez.

[rman]

100. Chavez is doing far better then the IMF in eliminating poverty.

But it does take time. Eliminating illiteracy is the first step and Chavez has accomplished that in just a few years. The rest will take a little longer.
For comparison, look at Jamaica. It was one of the first IMF victims, and after several generations it is even poorer then is was.
In the mean time the economy of Venezuela is growing stronger and unlike what's usually the case, everyone there benefits from it.

[1932]

5. Some facts about the bridge mentioned in post #4

Venezuela’s Minister of Infrastructure, Ramón Carrizales, made the decision to close the artery today, following several months' efforts to strengthen and readjust one of the freeway’s crucial valley bridges. However, with heavy rains falling most of yesterday, the mountainside that has been slipping by a few centimeters per day, causing one of the valley bridges to buckle in the middle, slipped a full 25 centimeters in one day. The columns holding up the bridge have now become severely displaced and the bridge could collapse at any time. Slums below the bridge also had to begin evacuation today.

...

Vice-President José Vicente Rangel, who visited the bridge today, called the situation a “national emergency,” adding, “this means that all resources will be placed at its service.”

...

Engineers say that the collapsing bridge, or Viaduct No. 1, as it is known in Venezuela, cannot be saved. Instead, the Chavez government is building a new temporary viaduct, which will be completed in February 2006 and a permanent replacement, which will be completed in 2007.

Meanwhile, the government is repairing the alternate routes and is placing National Guard troops along the road, in order to assure travelers’ safety. The International Caracas Maiquetia airport will not be closed in the near future, but authorities have said that plans are being considered in which flights would be routed to Valencia, the closest major city with an international airport. Travel from Valencia to Caracas would take about two and a half hours.

For the slums or barrios below the collapsing viaduct, the government is offering to re-locate 200 families that live in the immediate danger zone and is planning to re-locate hundreds more in the near future. The relocated families are to receive new free public housing in the Caracas area. Housing Minister Luis Figueroa spoke directly to the affected community, saying that the evacuation had to begin immediately.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1861

[Piotr]

7. The bridge is not a new problem that the Chávez administration...

...was suddenly riddled with. The architect who made the bridge in 1952 or so said that it would only last 50 years as the mountains on which it stood grew apart about 1 cm a year. The problem was neglected by previous governments, yes, but it was also neglected by the Chávez government- as evidenced by the lack of foresight. The alternate roadway was being built to service the falling bridge, and is now being reconverted to allow transportation. However, it may be dangerous because parts of it run under the falling bridge.

Do you understand how the Chávez administration is responsible now? How can it be in a position to spread its "message " when it can barely confront its own situations at home?

[1932]

9. You said some things in that post that the article contradicted.

Which suggests that your comments might not be credible.

At the very least, do you have a link for the allegation about the bridge.

The articles suggests that the government is working really hard to take care of this problem.

It seems a little ridiculous to criticize the government over one bridge (that they're working on!) when they've clearly done so much in terms of increasing literacy, providing medical care, building houses, devolving political power, building up an agriculural program, protecting the nations natural resources from foreign exploitation, increasing wages and employment, holding down inflation, defending the government from fascist coups, etc.

[Piotr]

16. My mother knows the architect who was commissioned to develop...

...both the road that was going to be used to service the bridge and the new alternative road. It was he who told my mother. The project has been around for over twenty years, but was never taken up by any of the governments until now.

The bridge was a vital part of the Venezuelan economy, not only because Caracas received a big part of its imports through La Guaira.

There are so many other things to criticize the government about, and much that is a product of misinformation or confusion. But this is the first thing that came to mind and that is the easiest to showcase, because it can't be covered up so easily.

All previous governments have done those things you mention after the fall of Gomez ca1937, perhaps for the simple reason that, besides leaning to the left, most have been populist, especially after 1952. It may come as a surprise to you, but Venezuela has had very pronounced leftist tendencies during the history of its democracy. AD was founded as a left-leanining political party; COPEI is Christian Social-Democrat. So to give credit for the Chávez administration for things that were being done before is certainly more than a little ridiculous.

Yes, all of them. Or what was Chávez doing in 1992? (may I remind you that fascist means "through force". Unlike April 11th, which was the spontaneous of the high ranking military refusing to massacre the populace under Chávez's direct orders during the demonstrations, Chávez had been planning to overthrow a "democratically elected government" for a long time).

[1932]

18. In the movie The Revolution Will Not be Televised

There's a scene where people from a wealthy community have a meeting where some guy starts telling them lies, which they build up into bigger lies, and soon, everybody is believing the most preposterous things.

Not saying that's what going on with yoru double hearsay from the road builder, but I can imagine how people could start saying and believing silly things about the road. (But I should add, I'm not even clear what you're alleging about the road.)

Yes, Venezuela clearly has liberal impulses. The problems that lead to the Caracazo (spelling?) riots was that the people believed they had elected a much more liberal leader -- he ran and won as an anti-neoliberal, but then, before he was even sworn in, started to promote Chicago school/Washington Consensus policies. Thus the violent resistance. Even Chavez won an election on substantially the same platform as his anti-neolbieral predecessor. The difference, and the real watershed moment in Venezuela's history, seems to be that Chavez actually was able to implement the liberal impulse lying within the nation's blood by replacing Venezuela's moribund constitution with one that could really give the people a government that served the majority.

BTW, in some of your posts you say the exact obvious of the truth. How could you believe April 11th was spontaneous? (Presuming that that were even relevant to the point you're trying to make.) When you say that, I think of that scene in The Revolution Will Not Be Televised where those wealthy Venezuelans were convincing themselves of the most absurd and counterintuitive things.

[Piotr]

24. You must remember that, when angry, people will believe

Anything if it has something to do with the cause of their anger. I disliked the way that the Coordinadora Democrática was handling the political opposition. These people tried to play politics, and thus mostly relied on movement of masses to show resistance to Chávez. However, this does not mean that some people aren't aware of what's going on, or have no defensible reasons to oppose Chávez; it means that people tend follow whoever is shouting the loudest, and that there are those who oppose him for those reasons, there are those who oppose him because they're angry or dissatisfied, and there are those who oppose him for nefarious reasons of their own. Chávez's opposition isn't as small or discriminate as he makes it look.

Sometimes true to their left-leaning populism, previous governments had as whole enacted liberal, as you call them (liberal has other connotations in Venezuela), programs in Venezuela, to a greater or lesser degree. Health programs, housing programs, education (especially literacy) programs, food programs (popular dining halls), etc. Sometimes, there were very good results; sometimes, there were not. The difference between the previous governments and Chávez was that Chávez has made an entire national and international publicity campaign out of it.

The liberal leanings of Venezuelans and their governments, built up over the last 50 years or so, resulted in a culture of expecting handouts; the myth that "Venezuelans could live without having to do work, simply through selling oil and distributing the profits". It sounds like a completely idiotic idea, indeed, but it has surprisingly taken hold, no thanks to politician's speeches. The main perceived problem came to be government corruption; that is, the lack of effective redistribution of the oil wealth. This is what Chávez originally meant when he said "the oligarchs" during his first presidential campaign (that term has now grown to encompass anyone who has more than you). Chávez's main platform was the fight against government corruption and a change in the old system (which was eventually perceived as the cause of all of Venezuela's ills, even though what Chávez is doing socially has been done before in other forms and is, ironically, one of the driving arguments as to why Venezuela came to be as it was in 1998).

Chávez's only real change, with regards to before, is the mass publicization of his "revolution" and the de facto centralization of all Venezuelan institutional power in himself (You would be surprised how "left leaning" the 1961 constitution was). Crime is still rampant, nepotism, favoritism and corruption are still there, there is great neglect in many areas, there is inefficiency, there is petty bureaucracy...

BTW, concerning April 11th: if you can get someone to translate to you the Tablante Report, or the official military hearings, then perhaps you would understand it better. There probably were conspiracies against Chávez; however, the events of April 11th were not the result of one of them.

[1932]

23. By the way, isn't it true that every party which eventually won the

presidency attempted a coup at some point. Even Perez played a minor part in the coup that brought his party to power, no?

[Piotr]

29. Yes, mostly. AD (Pérez's party) is an example.

[Flanker]

67. Those parties were left-leaning in name only

Oh and social democrat is nowhere close to democratic socialist.

[Piotr]

75. Really? Then perhaps you have never heard of...

...The pre-democracy Barranquilla Plan and its foundation statement,:
"Our revolution must be social and not just political. Getting rid of Gómez, and consequently of gomecismo, that is, the landlord-caudillista (strongman) regime, entails the need to destroy, in its economic and social foundations, an order of things deeply rooted in a society where the question of social injustice has never before been put forth"
(note point e), protection for the working class from capitalist tyrnanny)

http://www.efemeridesvenezolanas.com/html/plan.htm

...President Raúl Leoni and his Pentágono de Acción para la Defensa y Conservación del Petróleo (AD), where he defends national oil interests and increases taxes on the wealthiest and middle class sectors of the population;
http://www.efemeridesvenezolanas.com/html/leoni.htm

...Rafael Caldera's first presidency, where he nationalized gas reserves, increased tariffs on oil exports, especially to the United States, and began to reestablish ties with Communist countries, beginning with the USSR?

http://www.cidob.org/bios/castellano/lideres/c-037.htm

...Carlos Andrés Pérez's first presidency, where ne nationalized the iron and oil industries.
(Carlos Andrés Pérez was also vicepresident of the Socialist International in 1976)

...Jaime Lusinchi's salary increases, price fixing, compensatory bonds , etc after "Viernes Negro".
http://www.cidob.org/bios/castellano/lideres/l-012.htm.

Among other things.

[Flanker]

79. There is a difference between nationalization and socialism

If a country does not take care of the poor it is not a socialist nation/government. The were little to no policies dedicated to alleviate the massive poverty or its symptoms. The only thing subsidized was gasoline.

[Piotr]

84. There is more than nationalizations there.

And there are other things I haven't mentioned for current lack of time and concrete data (who, when, how). I will post them when I can.

[K-W]

93. So basically anything that goes wrong in Venezuala

is an excuse to bash Chavez and the socialist government? Because its not like these things dont happen all over the place.

[1932]

6. And an answer to Piotr questions:

Yes, the world is better off when leaders like Evo Morales get their message across and when the polarization of wealth and misery of the poor in America is reduced.

I think it's an incredibly wise investment of Venezuela's money to build up a progressive coalition of people who want to reduce poverty across borders and when poverty is, in fact, reduced across borders.

We all do better when we all do better, and that goes for your neighbors in your community as well as your neighbors on this planet.

Venezuela's government knows what he's doing when it spends its money. I've never seen a government with a more clear-headed strategy for achieving progressive goals.

Incidentally, I'm reading Grey LeRoy's book, the Great American Jobs Scam and he makes it pretty clear that the real problems for workers and businesses is not that corporate taxes aren't low enough, but its the inequality across borders that gives companies incentive to exploit workers overseas.

What this proves is that you can't ignore what happesn across borders if you care about helping people locally. Venezuela's solutions to its own problems with inequality absolutely demand international solutions.

[Piotr]

8. Before helping others, you must help yourself. That is,

Before you can be able to lend aid, you must be in a position to do so; now the Chávez administration, for all its programs, has failed in alleviating poverty in Venezuela in a significant way; so how can it purport to spread its message around the world if it doesn't work?

You don't alleviate poverty by taking from someone who has more than you; you alleviate poverty through a combination of hard work and aid tailored to you, so that you can be in a position to become a productive member of society and go as far as your work will take you; you have to increase standards of living, and give people the chance to develop economic activites; you cannot otherwise hope to be intellectually, economically, or socially independent.

[1932]

10. I think you missed my point. There are no local solutions anymore.

You can't help yourself unless your vision is broad and looks to the world.

Also you can only help poor people when you help all poor people. If your solution to poverty is to make others miserable, you're going to end up with a chaotic world that screws everyone.

Venezuela makes a lot of money from Citgos selling gas to middle class Americans. If we have chaos here because of extreme polarizations of wealth, it's going to screw up Venezuela as much as it screws up the US. Venezuela nees a prosperous American middle and working class if it wants its oil to be valuable.

[Piotr]

13. How could there be an international solution if there are no local ones?

Can you have coral colony without polyps?
Tell me, if you want to quickly heat a large body of water, do you put all the water in a pot to boil? Or do you put a small quantity that boils fast, then add another small quantity when the other one is boiling, and so on until you have added all the water and it has become hot? It takes a lot more energy to heat all the water at once than to heat it in layers until it's completely and equally hot.

The idea is not to give to the poor, but to take the poor out of poverty. You give people tools and conditions for them to use them, not what you get with tools of your own.

Ideologies aside, do you really think those polarizations are on purpose? Do you think middle class Americans, when they go to work and provide for themselves and those who they care for, are purposely attempting to stamp their heel on those around them? Poverty is not the result of those around you having more, but the result of you not having what to produce wealth with.

You do not have chaos because of polarizations of wealth; no, there are other reasons. There are factors in the US, such as profound racism and ignorance , that contribute to the polarizations in American society and that are not present in Venezuela. Look instead towards Scandinvian countries to get an idea of what I'm talking about. There is nothing there to do with what Chávez preaches.

[1932]

14. Where have you been?

In that paragraph in post 9 where I list the things they've been doing, that isn't just bullshit.

[Piotr]

19. Where have *you* been...

In the last 70 years of Venezuelan history? And where have you been during the human rights abuses, the incessant and rampant corruption, the messages of hate put forth by Chávez in Venezuela, the political polarization , the nepotism and favoritism towards chavistas and the discrimination against opposition members, the demonstrations against Chávez, the takeover of the branches of government, the funding of Bolivarian Circles in Venezuela and abroad, and so on?

Where have you been?

[1932]

21. Which one do you want to talk about?

I really suspect that you might be believing things that aren't entirely accurate.

Furthermore, we've gotten off the topic, but I really can't believe you don't see how doing what you can to keep Citgo's home nation from falling into disarray, a building up good will in Citgo in the US, is good policy for Venezuela. I think we're moving quickly to new topics when we haven't really worked through your beliefs and attitudes towards this first issue.

[Piotr]

26. I would prefer it if you researched about it on your own.

They are all very extensive. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have observations and reports on recent Venezuela. If you read Spanish, try www.urru.org for documentation on April 11th. There are also several blogs by Venezuelans with links to some places with further evidence; some name names. The one I go to most often is www.vcrisis.com, which is run by Aleksander Boyd, who is living in London. But perhaps the best places you could look up are sites in Spanish, especially Venezuelan newspapers.

Concerning the strategy you lay out about Citgo: I do understand what you mean and I do see how it can work. However, I think there were more publicity and political reasons for those deals (overall, to gain sympathy and popularity in the US, by both giving to the American needy and by kicking Bush when he's down ).

[Solon]

33. Interesting choices for sources...

A website from Miami Lakes area of Miami-Dade county, and another from a guy with no credibility(disgruntle hotel worker).

[Judi Lynn]

37. There are a lot of very wealthy Venezuelans who moved to Miami-Dade

in the last few years, from what I've heard from people who live in the area.

They even have a nasty group of right-wing idiots there who formed a nasty group, "Free Venezuela," and they have formed their own cancer-like group which seems to monitor media coverage here and attempt to argue Americans into hating Hugo Chavez to the degree they hate him.

Here's a page from News Hounds which contains yet another of what seems to be millions of his blow-hard pronoucements. It's a little more than 1/2 of the way down the page:

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/02/05/is_venezuela_next_fox_news_paves_the_way.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm fairly certain the idiot has pestered Democrats here previously. This creep sounds suspiciously like "Windnsea" sounded during his brief stay.

[Solon]

38. To be fair...

the website was established in 1999, so maybe it was one of the wealthy Venezuelans that buggered out early.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Hmmm. Hugo Chavez was elected in 1998. Probably so. n/t

[Solon]

45. Been trying to find background info on the guy who started...

the site, his name is Humberto Anez, I tried but failed to find pertinent info on him, though I suspect he may not be Venezuelan, beyond that, I don't know.

[Judi Lynn]

47. You might be right about that. I took a look for that name without

any other terms and found it in a list of computer support specialists, his home being in Hialeah, Florida, which is HEAVILY settled by Cuban "exiles" and their offspring. The Venezuelans who moved to South Floirida are very tightly bound by idealogy to the Cuban "exile" right-wing reactionaries. They even combined to have an anti-Chavez parade on a day the entire REST of the world was demonstrating in the streets protesting _Bush's imminent planned invasion of Iraq. Their guests of honor were two men who assisted in the attempted coup against Hugo Chavez.

http://www.computerassistant.com/Florida.asp

He's also the webmaster on this resort site from Key Biscayne (Richard Nixon's Florida getaway home):
http://www.silversandsmiami.com/English/main.htm

Uh, oh! Looks like he's connected to this site. I'll just post the URL. Omigosh!

http://www.urru.org/fotos/0_2004/20040301_barricadas_Varios3.htm

Unfortunately, my rusty Spanish woulddn't help me too well, as I would have to keep getting out a dictionary. I think you'll see there's a pattern here!



You recall seeing this photo of an "opposition" rioter, no doubt! It's from the site. They put marbles in their slingshots. At least one pro-Chavez demonstrator was killed by a marble in his skull.

[Solon]

49. I ran across those same sites, but I couldn't be sure...

Look at this for another site:
http://www.housecallcomputergeeks.com/client_search_details_unrestricted.asp?prov_id=1560000818&support_type_id=2

I didn't know how close this town was to Miami, I'm not familiar with South Florida that well, I know Mexico a little better.

[Judi Lynn]

51. Wow! It's gotta be the same right-wingding. Here's a map of Miami-Dade

I haven't grasped the scale yet, but it REALLY looks close to Miami, NNW:



It's gotta be the same fella with a pro-right-wing US Latin America policy obsession. Yuck.

[Solon]

52. Basically a burb of Miami and only a block and a half from Miami Lakes...

Unless Anez is a common name, like Smith, then it looks like the same guy to me!

[Judi Lynn]

54. I doubt it is all that common! I've never heard it.

One thing you may have noticed: Latin American right-wingdings always seem to travel in pairs. One will launch his attacks and his partner shows up to ride shotgun for him, and then you won't hear from them again for a while, until they BOTH show up again.

Once you've seen any posts by the "Free Venezuela" anti-Chavez propagadist, you'll recognize his style. He usually wants to mention his wife, for some reason. That's premature. Why would anyone give a damn about a new poster's spouse, when the poster himself is completely ridiculous? Sheesh.

[Solon]

55. One thing I notice about these guys is this...

They immediately come out with the name-calling, not even making constructive critisisms of Chavez at all, just the names. Like I said further down thread, its not necessarily Chavez HIMSELF we are defending, it is the will of the people that he leads, plus many of us actually are politically a lot alike him ourselves. Why wouldn't we support a man that was politically compatible with our beliefs?

For me its not necessarily about Chavez, what I see here is the possible birth of a new movement towards anti-neoliberal globalization. One where fair trade and free democracies can possibly florish and "free" trade is dead and buried. I don't really care that the opposition exists at all, what I do care about is the fact that they don't even seem to believe that "one person, one vote" should even be allowed in their country. We don't worship Chavez as some sort of God, nor should he be vilified as some sort of Devil, he is but a man, an elected official. The fact that he seems to walks the walk at the same time he talks the talk is heartening. However, now the opposition is in a quagmire of sorts, their positions on many issues, not all revolving around Chavez himself, will never fly to the poor people who make up the majority of the country's voting population. Given that, many of the right wing opposition now have a choice, moderate your positions and work within the system, or attempt another coup, and see how far you will get. The people of Venezuela have a taste for freedom and true democracy, I believe they will fight for it, with or without Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

58. It’s not the man, but the process of pushing back the repression,

the exploitation, the racism, the unacceptable custom of living off the labor and commerce of the poor, while bending all efforts to keep them poor and helpless, that must succeed.

They refuse to identify with the human race, they seek to divide and conquer by demonizing the people working for change: educators, lower ranking, socially awakened clergy, medical workers, union workers and organizers, students, and they seduce the unhappy, angry poor with the suspicion those who work for change look down on them, and think they are idiots, and would like to control them. You’ve seen the Republicans doing that right here in this country.

For sure, it’s not the man, whatsoever. The right-wing just plays it that way, to divert attention from the absolute need for the process of change for the common good. Personalizing the process, then attacking the person, they dismiss the need for change, or try to.

[zanne]

110. Good post, Judi Lynn.

I think that when they say "I'm from Venezuela and I'll tell you what's really going on", our BS sensors pick something up automatically. It's alot like a Texan saying "I'm from Texas so I'll tell you how to solve illegal immigration". (Maybe not a wonderful example, but the best one I could come up with).

[Judi Lynn]

111. It seemed a little strange to you, too? Good! That poster isn't aware

that DU posters who were here in April, 2002, were absolutely transfixed while a male DU'er who had posted here before that time kept everyone spellbound night and day, day and night throughout the _Bush-supported coup on Hugo Chavez.

That great poster gave us moment-to-moment details of what was happening in Caracas as it all unfolded. He had "brazillions" of DU'ers watching for his posts and following closely. At the same time, another DU'er, a female who used to live there, ALSO gave her invaluable, detailed, insightful, and exceptional commentary, bringing up points and facts those of us new to US/Venezuelan policy had never had time to study, yet.

It was a true event, and many people kept very close to their computers waiting with concern while the one who was still in Caracas kept everyone informed, and the one in the States shared her own experience and thoughts.

Those days were an awakening for many, many DU'ers, and a confirmation to DU'ers who already were aware of ongoing US/Venezuelan relations.

We had already HEARD from people who lived in Venezuela, and what they have to say is NOTHING WHATSOEVER like this anti-Chavez drool we get from visiting right-wing, pro-opposition posters.

Those two would have some very interesting remarks for the two anti-Chavez posters on this thread. It would be educational.

[Flanker]

65. I think you need more balanced sources

vcrisis.com cannot be your main source.

[1932]

68. Yeah. "vcrisis" -- it sort of gives away its editorial agenda in its name.

It's interesting to contrast the name for the conservative website that discusses the Chavez government with the progressive website, venezuelanalysis.com.

Analysis. Crisis. Analysis.

Lisa needs braces. Free beer. Lisa needs braces.

[Flanker]

69. Its not just the bias

I try not to argue ad hominem but vcrisis.com simply cannot be one of only two sources of information, it is easily the most extremist anti-chavez website in the english language.

[Piotr]

85. I mentioned more than two sources of information. n/t

[Solon]

22. I didn't know that Chavez was in charge for the past 70 years...

Seriously, the corruption and cronyism were present well before Chavez or the Fifth Republic Movement ever won an election. He still has problems that stem from the mismanagment of that country for the past 70 years or so. He's only been in power for 8 years, and things there are improving, albeit slowly. Also that "discrimination" against the opposition, let me see, oh yeah, they tried to overthrow and possibly KILL the ELECTED president of the country, hell I'm surprised he hadn't thrown half of them in jail for that. Boo hoo for them. They are the ones that snipe Chavez supporters, they are the ones who brought about the police suppression of Caracas on 4/12/02, they are the ones that suspended the Constitution of the nation along with the legislature. Also, those "insidious" Bolivarian Circles are community based groups to solve community based problems, and the international ones don't recieve a dime from the Venezuelan government.

OK, I'm done, you keep living in the fantasy world you came up with.

[Piotr]

28. Solon, you sound like someone reacting to a burst bubble.

If you read posts above, you'll see that I mention that about the seventy years, and more, that the pre-Chávez years are very reproachable.

*Only* eight years...

You forget that while I was born and raised in Venezuela, you have probably never even set foot there. Let me ask you...when was the last time you heard of Venezuela before 1998, when Chávez came to power?

[Solon]

40. So which neighborhood do you live in in Caracas? n/t

[Piotr]

87. One of these:

Chacao, el Pedregal de Chapellín, Baruta, la Carlota, el Hatillo.

[Psephos]

30. "He's only been in power for eight years."

LOL

Look what Clinton got done in eight years...and that was after eight years of Ronnie and four years Bush the Elder.

Sorry, but to me, the real fantasy is thinking that Chavez doesn't have to turn things around for eight years and yet he still gets a free pass.

Apparently, the stunning majority of voters who stayed home in the Venezuelan elections last fall feel the same way. The man no longer has legitimacy.

Peace.

[Solon]

35. Unless he is voted out, he has legitimacy, no question about that...

especially since he won the referendum, he has more legitimacy than Bush, and that's a fact.

[Psephos]

39. No question?

When 75% of the electorate boycotts the polls, legitimacy of the election is absolutely a question. LOL Hmm, now why did three fourths of the country boycott the election? Hmmmmmm.

To be clear for others reading this post, I'm referring to the recent Congressional elections in Venezuela.

Following this "election," the pro-Chavez alliance ended up with more than the two-thirds majority it needs to press for what they say are "necessary reforms," such as allowing unlimited re-election to the presidency. So Venezuela is now effectively a one-party state. Yet some people keep chanting la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you when anyone suggests single party rule + dumptrucks full of petrodollars doesn't equal a problem. This despite our own newspapers full of evidence right now why unchecked and unbalanced power is always a nightmare.

Power is ugly, regardless of its provenance. Unchecked power goes beyond power all the way to danger. Even in Venezuela.

Peace.

[Solon]

42. 75% didn't show up on an off year election, that means precisely nothing.

Look, what is the turnout here in the States on off year elections? I doubt its past 30% if that, hell we can barely get 50% when we have Presidential elections here. Also, it wasn't 75% that boycotted the election, but more like 20-30%, stop being disingenuous. The opposition, which ARE a minority in that country, decided to boycott an election and got burned on it, at worst we can slap them silly for stupidity, Jesus Christ on a cracker, why boycott the very process you claim to uphold?

[Psephos]

46. Heh heh

"Precisely nothing."

I'm actually getting a kick out of watching you twist into a pretzel trying to defend a 75% boycott of the polls. Apparently you've avoided reading any of the details of election irregularities, too. For example, all military and government workers were ordered to the polls to vote (hush hush). Hmm, wonder how they voted?..... How would you feel about being ordered to the polls, Solon?

What's next, are you going to defend Galloway, too? lol

The December elections humiliated Chavez, and exposed the government there as less than utopian. A lot less, if you ask me, but there's room for opinion as to how much less.

Meanwhile, you're focused on defending the indefensible, but you've said nothing about the real point of my posts, which is that unchecked and unbalanced power + big oil bucks = prescription for disaster. I'd say a single-party supermajority coupled with top-ten oil producer status fills that description nicely.

Nothing personal, Solon. I used to be a Chavez fan, too, but I lost my patience, and after that, my blinders.

Peace.

[Solon]

48. First, prove to me you used to be a Chavez "fan"...

Second, none of us Chavez defenders think he is God incarnated on Earth, but it seems that the opposition think of him as the Devil incarnate. You talk about me twisting words when you are the one who injects commentary into comments showing bias. Seriously, 75% BOYCOTTED the vote? Can anyone take you seriously when you engage in this type of "debate"? Look, the only reason he has a supermajority at all is because of a political MISTAKE by the opposition, that is all I'm saying. Any political party that boycotts an election and refuses to participate in it is going to lose to the other parties in that election. The fact that an entire block of opposition parties actually boycotted the election means that they actually have no clue as to how democracy actually works. They seem to be blind to the fact that the "help" actually wants a voice in government.

To be honest I don't really give two shits about Chavez as a leader, he is, get this, the MODERATING factor in the "Revolution". Many of the Bolivarian Circles actually have large Communist influences, and they have a motto "The Revolution with or without Chavez.", I much prefer Chavez over anyone else right now. Can you imagine what the state of the government and nation would have been if Pedro Carmona actually was able to stay in office? Think about it, what would the poor have done if there was no moderating factor like Chavez as a leader. Think of Russia around the early 20th century, do we need yet another Communist revolution, or would you prefer a democratic socialist revolution instead?

[Catrina]

53. Please post a credible link (nothing from Miami please) that

shows that 75% of the Venezuelan population stayed away because of OPPOSITION to Chavez? He is at a 70% approval rating in Venezuela. Bush can only dream of such numbers.

I have a friend who used to dislike Chavez, who lives in Venezuela. He reports that support for Chavez has grown on a regular basis over the past several years because of the huge improvements he has made in the lives of Venezuelans.

Of course the wealthy elites, connected to the global oil corps et al, are not at all happy that Chavez decided that they have to share the wealth.

My friend is now a huge supporter of Chavez and frequently sends me newspapers from his country.

You must not be aware of the recent world reports on which countries have made the most progress in key areas, the reduction of poverty, education eg? Venezuela was at the top of the list.

Clearly you are not a fan of Chavez, and that's fine. But please do not distort the facts. No country had made this kind of progress in such a short time. And that is why Chavez' poll numbers are so high.

[Solon]

56. Yep, he's actually winning over some of the middle class there...

which many would think is surprising, the funny thing is that having a super-majority in a government means nothing, really, besides being popular, especially with free elections. If that's an argument for dictatorship, was FDR a dictator? Look at how he and the Democrats swept into offices, having a total lock on most of the government for quite a few years.

[1932]

64. In US, highest turnout years are most divisive and low turnout years are

the least contested.

The more divided a country is, the higher the turnout. The more content people are with the government, the lower the turnout.

Nixon-Kennedy, and the last Bush election were high turnout years. Clinton-Dole was a low turnout year. People tried to say that Clinton didn't have a mandate in 96 because of low turnout. However, I don't hear many people claim that Bush's high-turnout victory indicated that American democracy is functioning really well.

Top that off in Venezuela with the fact that this is the first time they've ever had mid-term elections -- and they were purely local; there were no national races. You sort of lose your "boycott" argument. What's the turnout in your local election when there are no national races? I'll eat my hat if you can show me a greater than 25% turnout in more than one local election from the same community in years when the only candidates on the ballot were for local races.

[Judi Lynn]

71. Now THAT'S a POST! Ha ha ha ha. I was puzzling over the question

of the scope of that election overnight, in the small hours, because I had the idea the election was not a biggie. You've helped enormously!

The right-wing has very little about its positions and manner of conduct to commend it. Completely slimey.

[Bridget Burke]

141. Chavez has been in charge for 70 years?

I thought the upper classes were. Your classes.

[Selatius]

20. Countries like Sweden are what Chavez is trying to move towards

Investments in education and health care are the most significant change to happen under Chavez, as far as I can see. He has initiated programs to eradicate illiteracy in the country and hire more teachers and build more schools for the countryside's poor. Investments in these two areas leads to a healthier worker and a more intelligent, and consequently more competitive, worker, and investments in this area are key if people are to lift themselves out of poverty. Previous governments should not have allowed such conditions of extreme poverty to develop at all.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Dropping this article off.Don't have time for more. I'll add more later.

Knight-Ridder/Tribune Information Services - November 1, 2005

Economic Growth is a Home Run in Venezuela
By Mark Weisbrot

CARACAS - "Viva Chavez," shouted Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, as the team celebrated its World Series sweep last week. Guillen is Venezuelan, and a national hero in this country of 25 million people who seem to believe that they too, along with Chicagoans, have won the World Series.

His cheer for the country's leftist President Hugo Chavez might have caused some reaction just a year or two ago. But these days it went largely unnoticed, despite the continuing hostility between the Chavez government and the Bush administration. Relations between the two governments have been sour since the Bush administration supported a military coup against Chavez in April 2002, as well as a failed attempt to recall him last year.

But Chavez' popularity is now among the highest of any president in Latin America, with a 77 percent approval rating, according to the latest polling.

A few economic statistics go a long way in explaining why the Venezuelan government is doing so well and the opposition, which still controls most of the media and has most of the country's income, is flagging.

After growing nearly 18 percent last year, the Venezuelan economy has expanded 9.3 percent for the first half of this year - the fastest economic growth in the hemisphere. Although the government's detractors like to say this is just a result of high oil prices, it is not so simple.

Oil prices were even higher and rose much faster in the 1970s. But Venezuela's income per person actually fell during the 1970s. In fact, for the 28 years that preceded the current government (1970-1998), Venezuela suffered one of the worst economic declines in Latin America and the world: per capita income fell by 35 percent. This is a worse decline than even sub-Saharan Africa suffered during this period, and shows how completely dysfunctional the economic policies of the old system had become.
(snip/...)

http://www.cepr.net/columns/weisbrot/2005_11_01.htm

[1932]

12. I understand why journalists are upset about Knight-Ridder's sale.

This isn't the same sort of journalism you get from the Wall Street Times AP.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Thanks for reading it. You're absolutely right. K-R has done fine work.

Funny how it contradicts some of the Chavez-demonizers' prime charges.

More from the article:

Although Chavez talks about building "21st century socialism," the Venezuelan government's economic policies are gradualist reform, more akin to a European-style social democracy. The private sector is actually a larger share of the Venezuelan economy today than it was before Chavez took office.

One important reform, long advocated by the International Monetary Fund, has been the improvement of tax collection. By requiring both foreign and domestically-owned companies to pay the taxes they owe, the government actually increased tax collection even during the deep recession of 2003 -- a rare economic feat.

As a result, the government is currently running a budget surplus, despite billions of dollars of increased social spending that now provides subsidized food to 40 percent of the population, health care for millions of poor people, and greatly increased education spending. The official poverty rate has fallen to 38.5 percent from its most recent peak of 54 percent after the opposition oil strike. But this measures only cash income; if the food subsidies and health care were taken into account, it would be well under 30 percent.

The government's currency controls have also helped to stem the capital flight that had hurt the economy prior to 2003. The country's public debt and foreign debt are at moderate levels. With an accumulated $30 billion of reserves - perhaps twice what the country needs -- Venezuela is well-poised to maintain growth even if oil prices drop unexpectedly.
(snip/...)

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[rman]

105. "77 percent approval rating" - that's what you get

when you also poll the poor areas.
In Venezuela that is.
One got to wonder what the approval rating of Bush would be if poor areas in the US would be included in polls.

[Judi Lynn]

107. I think we could all successfully guess just how popular he'd be

in places like New Orleans, or in mining areas, after they finally learn how much he has protected mine owners from meeting their obligations to maintain decent safety standards, or in large cities.

Yeah, he's such a people-pleaser, he makes his normal appearances with protestors standing one half mile away or more.

[Judi Lynn]

72. I don't know which of the two anti-Chavez posters wrote it, but I must

take time to get on record with my comment: I can't begin to understand what kind of citizen would DARE condemn our Democratic Senators' efforts to get affordable heating oil to HOMELESS SHELTERS, for ####ing crying out loud. My godalmighty. What obnoxious nerve.

Now I've seen everything.

[Psephos]

77. No one condemned it here

To the contrary, actually.

Read the posts next time.

Peace.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

81. Sorry. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

We can read.

Edit: and we have long memories too. We remember the unbelievable bullshit that was said about the previous deals way back then.

[rman]

108. Then what's the good point you think Piotr was making?

Piotr : I suppose you think it's good that Chávez is "helping" your countrymen...

Psephos : Piotr is a Venezuelan, and makes a good point



Did you not think Piotr was saying that it's in fact bad that Chavez is helping poor Americans? Bad because it is (according to you and Piotr) at the expense of poor Venezuelans?

And now you're saying you are doing the opposite of condemning Chavez's help?

[Judi Lynn]

109. Actually I did read the posts. That's why I knew what was written

well enough to comment on it. Amazing!

You're running out of steam, it would seem, if this is the extent of your contribution to this thread.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. Heh. Right on. When they slip into "I-didn't-say-what-I-said" mode they're

at the end of the rope.

[Tight_rope]

82. Good for Vermont and all the other states that did this...TO BAD I LIVE

in this damn hot headed, redneck, gay hating, corporate crooked, cheat the people state called Texas. Maybe I need to relocate. I miss the east coast. I curse the day my parents moved us here thinking it would be a better life. God I miss Pennsylvania.:cry: It's been 26 years and I still hate this backwardass city call Houston.:argh:

[LuckyLib]

150. Absolutely. Any states that step around BushCo and develop

their own international relationships and policies will be way ahead of the game. California was completely screwed by the Texas Oil/Gas Mafia and Bushco, all of whom were in bed with Enron. Californians will not be led down that path again. Make your own policies and trust no one associated with this government. I hear ya on Texas . . . only Austin and San Antonio seem to be sane places to live. Hang in there and relocate when you can. Place is everything, and like-minded folks make our lives worthwhile.

[Judi Lynn]

151. Good points made. It would be great to see California get some real

satisfaction for the unforgivable criminality the energy people perpetrated upon its citizens. It still defies credulity that ANYONE would want to stoop that low.

Appreciate your tips on liveable Texas towns. Outsiders would never know this.

Welcome to D.U., CLW! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[JanMichael]

112. I'm glad that Venezuela, NOT just Chavez, is doing this.

Christ when I read this thread it's like the Cuba threads where every single quality of Cuba is Castro and not the Cuban People.

Now I see posts that oddly attempt to Castroiz Chavez.

BushCo and the "Right" has its talking points well represented here at DU when it comes to South America.

[mydreamcametrue]

123. Vermont...

:rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

142. What's so funny about Vermont?

Sometimes a dream is a nightmare.

[ronnie624]

143. Interesting thread.

As usual, the anti-Chavez drivel has turned out to epitomize the art of disinformation. Links that have nothing to do with the charges at hand, arguments from authority(So-n-so is from Venezuela so he should know.), diversions to unrelated topics. Some of the posts appear to be nothing more than hundreds of words randomly strung together into a long stream of gibberish.

And as usual, your post contain exactly the sort of impeccable logic and cogency I've come to expect, including rock solid info sources. So I guess its worth wading through all of the crap to find the nuggets of truth and enlightenment. Thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

147. Governor looks to Venezuela for oil aid

Governor looks to Venezuela for oil aid
By MARK HAYWARD
Union Leader Staff
Sunday, Jan. 29, 2006

New Hampshire officials have attempted to contact the socialist, oil-rich government of Venezuela to discuss the possibility of obtaining low-priced oil for the state’s poor, the governor’s office said last week.

The office of Democratic Gov. John Lynch acknowledged the move on Wednesday, weeks after governments in other states began reaping fuel-assistance benefits from their Venezuelan connections.

Massachusetts, Rhode Island and the Bronx, N.Y., have purchased oil at a 40-percent discount from Citgo, which is owned by Venezuela’s nationalized oil company. Maine received a donation of roughly $5.5 million from Citgo. And Vermont is expected to announce a donation this week, according to the office of U.S. Rep. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt.

On Wednesday, Lynch spokesman Pamela Walsh said New Hampshire “has taken steps to reach out to the Venezualan government.
(snip/...)

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Governor+looks+to+Venezuela+for+oil+aid&articleId=fecea5e9-5bf3-4283-9eca-4e23529b917d

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Philly latest to get discounted Venezuelan oil
January 29, 2006

PHILADELPHIA -- Low- income families in the Philadelphia area will receive discounted Venezuelan heating oil in the latest deal bringing fuel to U.S. communities that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says are neglected by Washington.

Citgo, the Houston subsidiary of the Venezuelan national oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela SA, will ship 5 million gallons of heating oil marked down by 40 percent for distribution to low-income families next month in a deal brokered by Democratic Rep. Chaka Fattah.

Similar shipments have been made to New York City, Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and American Indian reservations in Maine. In Chicago, the CTA spurned a similar deal.
(snip/...)

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-ven29.html

[ronnie624]

148. How I loathe republicans.

"Hugo Chavez has used the recent spike in heating oil costs as an opportunity to grandstand on the world stage," said U.S. Sen. John E. Sununu, R-N.H. "He is selling Venezuela’s assets at cut-rate prices while his country languishes in poverty and essential infrastructure crumbles. This is a disgrace, and New Hampshire should take no part in such a tragic and misguided charade."

Senator Sununu would do well to mind his own damned business. Last I heard the Venezuelan economy was growing at better than 11%.

Republicans are so foul. Is it genetic? They would have no problem if the Venezuelan people were all starving and Chavez was squirreling away Hundreds of millions of dollars in a Swiss bank account, as long as he was submitting his country to be pillaged by the oil companies.

[CatFelyne]

149. Connecticut also finalizing deal for discounted oil

January 27, 2006
Connecticut's low-income residents may soon see their heating bills drop as officials finalize a controversial plan to bring discounted heating oil from Venezuela to homes across the state.
(snip)

New Haven Director of Elderly Services Pierrette Silverman, who met with Venezuelan Minister of Energy Fadi Kabboul in Washington, D.C., last December to propose bringing the discounted oil to New Haven as a pilot program, said that within the next few weeks she expects a contract to be signed between CITGO and state and local energy distributors to serve all of Connecticut.
(snip)

Under the plan, households that already benefit from federal heating subsidies will be eligible to receive additional discounts beyond the existing subsidies, Silverman said. ... The contract will also allow social service organizations such as health clinics and homeless shelters to buy discounted oil, Silverman said.
(snip)

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31475