Bible studies class pushed for schools (by Georgia Democrats!)

[jefferson_dem]

Bible studies class pushed for schools
Democrats' bill fuels grumbling by GOP

Bridget Gutierrez - Staff
Thursday, January 19, 2006

Reviving a controversial religious measure debated years ago, a group of Senate Democrats on Wednesday introduced a bill to create an elective high school class to teach the Bible.

If approved, the legislation would authorize the state Board of Education to adopt a state-funded academic course covering the good book's influence on literature, art, music, culture and politics.

<SNIP>

Democrats downplayed the religious nature of the proposal, saying that to be well-educated, students must understand biblical allusions in Shakespeare or the religious roots of American democracy.

But Republicans criticized the move as simply pandering to faith-based voters in an election year.

"The Democrats are learning this year what Republicans for decades had to realize: When you are completely shut out of control, you have to play on the margins," said Matt Towery, a former GOP lawmaker who now runs an Atlanta political media firm. "This is reminiscent of many of the things we --- when I was a Republican state legislator --- had to introduce when we were in the minority."

<SNIP>

http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/today/news_34fc74f532bd62a800d1.html

[Laelth]

1. Saw this in the local paper this morning.

Alabama's Democrats are doing the same. It makes sense. Give the Bible its own course so that we can keep it out of science classes. We're heading off the fundies at the pass, giving them a Bible course before they start pressuring the legislature to compel the teaching of intelligent design. Don't know if it will work, but the strategy has some merit.

-Laelth

[Debau2005]

3. I have no such trust!

I know that getting the class in is the first step. Once they do that, it will grow into something that we can't stop! I say NO to a Bible Course. I notice they did not suggest a class for other religions.

[Zenlitened]

19. Exactly.

:scared:

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Big mistake. Give them an inch and they'll take over completely.

They'll be creating little preachers in that class who will be proselytizing. The only way to counter it is to make room for a study of the Koran and other Holy books as well.

Southern Dems = Old Guard Dems.

[bowens43]

5. If they teach it as truth, it's illegal.

Do you doubt that they will try to teach it as truth?

[Laelth]

9. Hmm ...

Sounds to me like they want to teach it as literature and examine its effects on "art, music, culture and politics." Most of our teachers, as far as I can tell, are sane, college-educated people who respect the separation of church and state that's implied in the Constitution. I can't imagine why our Dem. legislators would propose to teach the Bible in school unless they trusted the teachers to treat it as a profound piece of literature (as opposed to an alternative science).

-Laelth

[Moosepoop]

15. That's exactly how it was taught when I took this class.

I was either a sophomore or a junior, so it was in the late 1970s.
My high school -- in southwestern lower Michigan -- offered a class called "The Bible as Literature". It was part of the Language Arts curriculum, otherwise known as "English". I signed up for the course thinking it would be an "easy credit", after all, I already knew the major Bible stories so this would be a piece of cake, right?
Wrong!!! It was actually covered as an historically influential piece of literature, and the students were expected to approach it with the same analytical skills that were applied to the works of Shakespeare or Mark Twain or Charles Dickens. This involved deconstructing the various styles of writing found in the Bible, examining the influences of the times on the authors of it, considering the aspects of writing to a certain audience and who that audience was at the times in question, and so on. It was one of the driest and most boring and difficult courses I ever took.
It was taught, unfortunately for me, exactly as it was billed: The Bible as Literature. Nothing more, nothing less.

[newblewtoo]

28. The Bible as Literature. Nothing more, nothing less

I remember taking a similar course as an undergraduate taught by a former Rabbi. Coming from a somewhat fundamental background, this course created some of the most profound changes in my life. I became much more of a critical thinker and began to question much of what I had taken for granted. I agree, it was not an easy three credits.

The Bible is great Literature. It contains great oral histories and every style of writing.

I do not think it would be taught as literature by the fundamentalists.

[Zhade]

40. Did the course cover the extensive rewrites?

The Nicene Creed? All the contradictions inherent in the bible itself?

That would actually be a very valuable course - it would expose kids to a lot of facts that their preachers don't want them to know (or maybe don't even know themselves).

[LostinVA]

18. This would probably ONLY work if you had

a Non Judeo-Christian/Muslim teach the class... and that won't happen.

[Strong Atheist]

25. Bulls***. Next, you will need to give the torah, and the koran,

and the church of bob, and the FSM, and Satanism their own classes, to be "fair". NO RELIGION TAUGHT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS EVER!

[Laelth]

49. I hear you.

There's no need to shout amongst friends, is there? I understand that you're a teacher, and I understand that you don't want to be pressured or compelled to teach religious texts. I presume that you, like me, strongly value the American tradition (lately eroded) of maintaining a strong separation between church and state, but, personally, I don't see the teaching of the Bible as literature as being a threat to the separation of church and state. Obviously, you do, and on that point we will have to agree to disagree.

And I would welcome teaching the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible, no?), and the Koran, and the sacred texts of the Church of Bob, and especially the words of the great prophet of the FSM (soon to be released) as literature focusing on those works' "influence on literature, art, music, culture and politics." I think those would make for some interesting and useful classes.

But neither the Jews, nor the Muslims, nor the Bobbites, nor the Monsterites are trying to get their beliefs taught in our science classes. It's the fundamentalist Christians that are the problem here, and that's why the current proposal is directed at them (I presume, anyway). If it takes an elective Bible course to keep religion out of required science classes, that seems to me a small price to pay.

But perhaps I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

-Laelth

[Strong Atheist]

51. "If it takes an elective Bible course to keep religion out

If it takes an elective Bible course to keep religion out of required science classes"

Only at the college level. Not in high school or lower. Keep your religion out of our PUBLIC schools! Keep it in the home/church/religious schools, where it belongs.

that seems to me a small price to pay.

No. NGU!

[DrunkenMaster]

34. wow....what a justification!

So the GA Dems should add the Bible to classroom in order to keep the Bible out of the classroom...yep, ya got me there. There's just no arguing with logic like that.

[Zenlitened]

37. .

LOL! :hi:

[Zhade]

41. Indeed!

It's like 'bombing for peace'.

[Laelth]

50. Welcome to DU.

I admit that I have no first-hand knowledge of the legislative history of this bill. I am merely making a guess about what I presume the Democratic leadership in Georgia is thinking. It seems to me that the only rational explanation for this bill is that the leadership hopes an elective course on the Bible will thwart attempts by the fundamentalists to get ID taught in science classes, and from that perspective, the strategy does make sense.

But perhaps you and I start from different places in considering this question. I assume that Democrats in my state (and around the country, for that matter) are decent, reasonable people who, more or less, share my values. I assume that the Democrats here in Georgia want to preserve the separation of church and state and see a course that treats the Bible as literature (as opposed to an alternative science) as a means of insuring that separation.

Perhaps you think something else is going on. Perhaps you don't trust that the Democrats in your state share your values.

-Laelth

[Debau2005]

2. *sigh*

We know...sorry about that. Someone got out of their room at the mental hospital!

Although if you read the posts by readers, you will find a good number are against it. Even having one person here, in the Bible Belt, write that they are opposed to force feed religion in schools was slightly refreshing.

[FloridaPat]

6. Religiious roots of American Democracy? Where????

[Glidescube]

7. I thought it was only legal

As part comparative religion class. A class taught more along the lines of sociology and anthropology.

[mzteris]

8. Teaching the Bible

as LITERATURE is ok -

in fact, better than okay -

because then it's discussed in a non-religious way. With critical thinking applied.

The Bible DID have tremendous influence on all of the arts - music, lit, art, theater - and yes - the politics of this country.

How better to learn that the Bible has been USED to justify Slavery, keeping women subservient, Prohibition, separate but equal, War, etc?

How better to learn that the Bible was written/modified/edited by people with an AGENDA?

How about a "compare and contrast" with the Enuma Elish, The Code of Hammurabi, The Bhagvad Gitva, the writings of The Buddha?

[EFerrari]

12. Or, with versions of the Bible -- the Vulgate, the King James,

and so on.

[Okiesoldier]

20. Which translation?

The ones used by christians take away the Father's name and insert pagan names like god, lord, el, ...etc...
I suggest students research the manuscripts and find out the truth about how the scriptures have been manipulated by the church and latin translators. They might be surprised how much the original manuscripts have been altered.

[ROakes1019]

29. Bible as literature

As an English major and teacher, I think learning the literary aspects of the Bible is legitimate. It and then Shakespeare are the most quoted literary works in the Western canon. As a teacher, I know that anything taught properly can only be enlightening. Even things we don't agree with are important to know as part of our liberal education. How can you counter the arguments of fanatics if you don't know the text they're alluding to, often incorrectly? Part of such a course would also provide information on why the particular books were allowed into the Bible (around the Third Century AD by the Nicean Council because they supported a patriarchal view) and why some were eliminated. Allow all views, dispassionately, and a student will arrive at the truth.

[mzteris]

53. Same for music majors.

Liturgical music is the backbone of "classical" music.

My mother (Southern Baptist) was suspicious - and none too happy - when I had to learn the Catholic Liturgy - mass, etc - in Music History.

[LizW]

10. Yeah, it's stupid and pandering, but I'm not worried

My kids have to take so much required stuff that they only have time for about one elective a year, and those are taken up by foreign language, computer, jazz band, driver's ed., etc. There's no time for a Bible class, anyway.

[baby_mouse]

11. Towery's wrong.

Firstly, the Democrat's aren't on the margins. Secondly, revealing that in his opinion Christianity is a marginal issue to his voters he's shot himself in the foot bigtime. (we can cut and paste that wherever we like)

Thirdly, I rather suspect that the Dems want the studes to know what's *actually in the Bible*...

[zbdent]

13. wow - Repukes who pander to the religious right

are saying that Dems are pandering to the religious . . .

:silly:

[Boredtodeath]

14. Yep, showing his true colors, isn't he?

I think it was a great move.

There's not a snowball's chance in hell this legislation will pass in Georgia - it was introduced by a Democrat!

In the meantime, the repubs get shown as the panderers they truly are. Starting with Matt Towrey.

GREAT move.

[Evergreen Emerald]

16. My daughter had a semester of the bible in an advanced lit class

She has grown up with a skeptical eye towards religion as she has seen the hypocrisy that it sometimes breeds. The literature class was a year-long course with the study of the bible as a semester.

I think it was a good learning experience for her. It was done well, and not in anyway taught with a hidden agenda of preaching. It of course depends on how it is represented to the class. And in high school, the kids would not let them get away with a disguised sermon. They are good at seeing through crap.

[donheld]

27. In high school 30 years ago I took a "bible as literature' class

In bright red Scottsbluff NE no less. The class was about as far from a bible beater class as you could get. The teacher taught the bible as a myth through out the entire year. He said nothing about any kind of religious doctrine at all. This makes me aware that if done right a class on the bible can be a good thing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. I think perhaps it might go down better

if it is about religious writings in general. Koran, Talmud, Bible, etc. Then you can do more comparative analysis.

However, if with just the Bible, taught correctly, it could be an awesome course because it has had a lot of influence on our civilization.

Taught by the wrong person with the wrong reason for teaching it, and it is religion in schools.

I would sure want to see the curriculum before weighing in, as a board memeber.

[JNelson6563]

21. Keep it an elective

like the other stuff we can live without. Keep it OUT of science class!!

Julie

[Lance_Boyle]

23. It already IS an elective...

it's called "church."

[Zenlitened]

30. LOL!

:D

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[JNelson6563]

33. Yes, I know but

let's face it. The Fundies and other zealots won't rest til their personal favorite mythology is taught. I don't have a problem with that as long as it isn't disguised as science or anything else it is not.

Julie

[Lance_Boyle]

35. And you think they'll rest then?

Nuh uh.

Give 'em an inch, and they'll tell you "God wanted it to be a mile." To employ a Homerism, "their rapaciousness knows no satiety."

[JNelson6563]

45. I suppose you're right.

Hope springs eternal. I need to quit hoping that sound reasoning will enter into the picture from the zealots' side of the discussion.

Julie

[Lance_Boyle]

48. When dealing with fundamentalists,

lowered expectations are a must. ;-)

[rocktivity]

22. The Bible's "influence on literature, art, music, culture and politics"

should be studied in classes on literature, art, music, culture and politics! It worked for me!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Javaman]

24. And the Dixie-crats ride again! oy...n/t

[Charlie Brown]

26. the Republicans are right

it is pandering to "faith voters," and this Georgian is not pleased.

"the good book's influence on literature, art, music, culture and politics?" When our school-children struggle with basic grammar and mathematics, this class seems extremely flippant to say the least.

If they can find a way to teach all major world religions equally (the Qu'ran and the Vedas have had their share of influence on art, culture, etc.), then maybe I'll reconsider. Otherwise, illegal and unconstitutional.

[toopers]

31. What's the big deal?

Since this is an elective why not allow a student to choose to take it if he/she wants to learn about the bible? I would imagine that the subject matter will be so dry/boring that it will probably die on its own.

[Charlie Brown]

32. tax-payer funded

and of course an affront to adherents of religions which have also had a profound affect on art, culture, etc., like Buddhism, Sikhism, Islam, etc. And there's the matter of "how" to teach the Bible (I guarantee you someone will be upset regardless of how the material is presented). Best to leave religion to parents and churches.

[toopers]

38. Tax payers vote for the BOE.

Let the tax payers determine the issue in the next election, like they did in Pa when intelligent design was introduced. That is the best way to deal with religion in the schools, once and for all.

[Zenlitened]

39. Well, the courts had a say in Dover as well. - n/t

[Zhade]

43. The Separation of Church and State is NOT up for grabs.

It is not something decided by majority rule.

[jpak]

36. I hope they teach what the "biblical allusions"

Begittin' and Begattin'

Knowin'

Spillin' Seed

really mean, and include a comparative deconstruction of allusions found in "The Song Of Solomon" and the REAL lyrics to "Louis Louis"....

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

44. Not with MY tax dollars, thank you.

NT!

[msongs]

47. schools teach other fiction, why not? nt

[depakid]

46. Well, it is Georgia

With its large population fake Christians there, very little surprises me.

[Bridget Burke]

52. The bill actually describes a SANE Bible Curriculum

Back in 2004, a bill in the Georgia Senate recommended adoption of the curriculum created by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools:

www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2003_04/fulltext/hr1255.htm

The Texas Freedom Network had Dr Mark Chancey of SMU critique the NCBCPS text:

The NCBCPS curriculum goes beyond a study of the Bible as literature or a description of the importance of the Bible for beliefs and practices of religious groups. It, in fact, improperly endorses the Bible as the “Word of God.” It also attempts to persuade teachers and students to adopt views of the Bible that are common in some conservative Protestant circles but rejected by most scholars. While such views are certainly appropriate for individuals or religious groups, public schools should not present them as fact.

The curriculum almost exclusively reflects views held by certain conservative Protestant groups. The role of the Bible in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian thought receives little attention.

The curriculum depicts the United States as a historically Christian nation. It even erroneously implies that historians generally believe that the Bible, even more than the Constitution, is the nation’s “Founding Document.”

Dr. Chancey’s report finds that shoddy research, factual errors, and problems with sourcing material also make the curriculum inappropriate for use in any classroom.

www.tfn.org/religiousfreedom/biblecurriculum/execsummary/

From the new bill:

a) The State Board of Education is authorized to approve a curriculum for an elective state funded course consisting of a nonsectarian, nonreligious academic study of the Bible and its influence on literature, art, music, culture, and politics. The curriculum and associated textbook shall meet academic rigor and standards of the State Board of Education in the same manner as required for approval of any other elective course and textbook approved by the state board and shall meet the requirements of the Constitutions of the United States and the State of Georgia. The course provided for in this Code section shall:

(1) Be taught in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students as to either the truth or falsity of the biblical materials or texts from other religious or cultural traditions;

(2) Not include teaching of religious doctrine or sectarian interpretation of the Bible or of texts from other religious or cultural traditions; and

(3) Not disparage or encourage a commitment to a set of religious beliefs

www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fulltext/sb437.htm

The NCBCPS curriculum does NOT meet these criteria. But the curriculum from The Bible Literacy Project comes close--although it is not mentioned in this bill.
www.bibleliteracy.org/Site/PressRoom/Press20050922/Press051130Endorsements.htm

Yet another battle in the fight between Bible Curricula. More info here: www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2005/11/bible_curriculum_battle.php

[Nevernose]

54. I already teach the Bible in a public high school

Not regularly, and not as a special class, but it's rare when a week goes by when an allusion to the Bible doesn't come up or when an author's religious views are unimportant. We also get to discuss a lot of politics, especially when reading communist-themed stories by Garcia Marquez, or other works related to politics such as "Brave New World" or "1984." We also offer a multicultural English class that spends half a year on world religions, including Christianity.

It would be hard to teach English without teaching something about the Bible, and I can see it being difficult to teach about art, culture, or politics without discussing the influence that Christianity and the Bible have had on those subjects. It might also be a great place to teach and learn about other religions, too -- you've no idea how many students out there will tell you that Jews, Muslims, and Christians don't worship the same God, or that Catholics aren't Christians, or that all Asians are Buddhists.

Then again, I'm the same guy who joined the Bible Club in high school just so I could argue with the fundamentalists.