Some veterans of Vietnam see Iraq parallel

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20031107/ts_usatoday/11941765&cid=676&ncid=1480

Iraq isn't Vietnam, not yet at least. But as criticism of the Bush administration's conduct of the war there intensifies, a number of prominent Vietnam War veterans say they are frequently reminded of the way the White House fumbled away public support for the only major war the United States ever lost.

Many who served in Vietnam including members of Congress, former Pentagon officials and a small but influential group of retired generals have begun to say what those now in uniform cannot: The Bush administration, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in particular, have not leveled with the public about the difficulty of winning in Iraq.

Though the scale of the war in Iraq is vastly different from the one in Vietnam 58,000 Americans died there over nine years, compared with 381 over eight months so far in Iraq these critics say the Bush administration is making mistakes that are eerily similar to the ones Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and military leaders made a generation ago. Critics say the administration has underestimated the determination and skill of the enemy, downplayed the danger to U.S. troops and offered overly optimistic predictions that seem blatantly at odds with the grim news Americans see in newspapers and on TV just like the White House often did during Vietnam.

"The American press and the American public saw our leaders talk about a 'light at the end of the tunnel' that did not exist" during the Vietnam War, said Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., in a speech Wednesday. "We can win the war in Iraq," said McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam, "but not if we lose popular support in the United States."

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[saigon68]

1. ITS IRAQ-NAM

It started the same way with high hopes. It was premised on lies. It is killing a lot of innocent people. It is obvious that outside of a few evil greedy men (Chalbi & Co.) no one wants us there.

There is NO MISSION STATEMENT.

There is no clear plan or goal to get the HELL out.


NEED I Go ON?

[dbt]

2. It sure as hell IS

Saw this toon over at bartcop. The word seems to be spreading.



:freak:
dbt

[0007]

20. I glad brought you brought up Ahmed Chalabi.....

Read this little article about this administration and it's close friend;

In March 2002, Seymour Hersh reported in The New Yorker that "A dispute over Chalabi's potential usefulness preoccupies the bureaucracy" within the U.S. government, "as the civilian leadership in the Pentagon continues to insist that only the INC can lead the opposition. At the same time, a former Administration official told me, 'Everybody but the Pentagon and the office of the Vice-President wants to ditch the INC.' The INC's critics note that Chalabi, despite years of effort and millions of dollars in American aid, is intensely unpopular today among many elements in Iraq. 'If Chalabi is the guy, there could be a civil war after Saddam's overthrow,' one former C.I.A. operative told me. A former high-level Pentagon official added, 'There are some things that a President can't order up, and an internal opposition is one.'"<4>

snip......

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ahmed_Chalabi


and more.....

[leftchick]

3. make that 388 Killed...

7 today that we know of.....and What the hell is happening in Baghdad?
I have seen no news out of there since Tuesday nights mortar attacks.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Of course, the Viet Nam Vets Against War

have been saying it even before the war started. My hat's off to the members of this fine organization and the work they did in protesting the war back in Jan, Feb, and March.

[caledesi]

7. Hear! Hear!

[tabasco]

10. Absolutely right!

I was very impressed by the speakers on CSPAN. I wish they would replay it so we could see just how prophetic these brave vetrans were. Their website is at:

www.vaiw.org

[Eloriel]

18. My hats off to them and

EVERY Vietnam Vet. Every vet, in fact.

Eloriel

[izzie]

5. Well Vietnum sort of built.

I recall start as a fiend of my husband died on the ship that was hit by some thing that started the whole thing or used to start it.It had been 100 men for this and then 300 for that. Until we moved on in mass. We saw the Fr. leave and it was just years of little news coming out, I do not think we saw it as a war at first but I always saw it as a civil war and could not see why we were their. Then it was to stop the Reds and it fit better in my mind but the big part of war was like this one I think. The gov is not telling the truth, lies to get in and what they really want. For the fighting man and tax payer it is much the same. They die and we pay and no one wins.Their country or ours.

[caledesi]

6. This is an excellent article. A MUST-READ

The "flavor" of this current debacle is the same as Vietnam.

Vietnam ws a travesty and I never thought in my lifetime, would I ever see anything like it happen again.

[DrBB]

8. Buncha Nixon retreads trying to "do it right this time"

Freud spoke of the "repetition compulsion"--returning again and again to the site of loss, failure, trauma. Got a bunch of Nixon admin retreads in there who think we could've won in SE Asia "if only"--if only no hippies, no disloyal commie pinko press. So sure they can run the same movie and have a different ending this time.

[mw]

16. Right. 58,138 killed in Vietnam wasn't enough

We need to sacrifice in Iraq a new generation of blood to the God's of greed and folly.

We could have won Vietnam, no? If we had just "mowed them down"??

[teryang]

9. Trying to subdue the Zeitgeist

That's why we failed in Vietnam. That is why we will fail in Iraq. The junta thinks they can install a banana republic in the heart of the Islamic world. The attempt to dominate foreign/Islamic communications with madison avenue propaganda is a complete failure. The only place it works is at home. Actually this failure was commented on quite a bit by neo con AEI leadership early on in the "post war" war, when it became apparent that we are universally detested in the Islamic world and there is not much they can do about it.

Modern communications is our undoing. The rest of the world has the American establishment's number. American corporate dominance is the objective, by force. No one is fooled by the giant Wurlitzer. It is nothing less than colonialism in this case, a frontal assualt on one more regime that dared to demand fair market value for its products (OPEC).

Guerilla warfare is the victim's preferred solution. It is the ju jitsu of warfare. The guy on the bottom wins the fight by exhausting his opponent over time. The foreign invader has overly long lines of communication: it has to strain itself with effort. For political reasons it has a significant manpower shortage: limited endurance. Relatively small numbers of resistance fighters swimming in a densely populated region will exhaust the invader over time and force him to tap out. The academic discussions by experienced war veterans who think we can win is so much self delusion. The dictators and police infrastructures we normally rely on for overseas profiteering are against us in Iraq.

[saigon68]

11. READ THIS ARTICLE

Diane Carlson Evans, RN was one of the Movers behind the Viet-Nam Women's memorial

She is a hero in my book


My turn
Anti-war, not anti-soldier

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14437

On a bleak night in the Central Highlands of Vietnam in 1969, just a few miles from the Cambodian border, I sent another young soldier from the 4th Infantry Division back to the United States.

This handsome young infantryman would not greet his waiting, anxious family with his timid smile and war weary eyes. After hanging yet another pint of blood, I touched his ashen face and looked into his sunken dark eyes filled with visions of war, memories of home, and fear of death. As I stroked his soft, cold face he whispered his last words: “I just wish I could see my Mom again.”

In that heartbreaking moment, I wanted to be his mother. He needed her grace and comfort and she deserved to be the one with him. He was still such a boy. As the color drained from his skin and life left this precious son, I instinctively knew that I could never let him go; he would be the guardian of my memories and rage at a government that betrayed us by not giving us a clear mission in Vietnam or reason to stay. Lyndon Johnson’s words, “We shall win this war at all cost,” stung deeply as I softly whispered another goodbye to the cost -- a good soldier.

[leftchick]

21. thanks for this saigon.....

I said through my tears....

[kentuck]

12. Anybody that remembers Viet Nam can see some parallels...

People started out supporting the Viet Nam war in high numbers. As more and more of the truth was able to filter thru the government and media sources, the people gradually turned against what was going on and, as John McCain well knows, we lose the wr when we lose popular support in this country. How much longer can they keep up the charade? Hopefully not as long as Viet Nam...

[saigon68]

17. It won't be that long

I know of only a couple of vets who still think IRAQ is a cool idea. Most of us are appallled.

Especially by all the women who are getting killed.

Since we are old farts ----it is wonderful women have the right to do the jobs. It is just appalling to see anyone killed for oil and corporate interests.

Read Diane's letter above

[PapaClay]

22. LOL!

Ah yes..."old fart". I can relate! :evilgrin:

I agree. It won't take as long. They're fucking this one up all on their own. Just as before.

And the internet is kicking their ass. Wish we had it in the 60's & 70's.

:smoke:

[Ernesto]

13. This is what happens when chicken hawks are in charge

I honestly do not know of a single Vietnam veteran that was fooled by these phoneys. There is no revelation here. When cowards lead (from the rear) this is what you get......... "They told us that we'd be home in 6 months, that was in 1965"......... "I want adults back in charge"

[Unknown Known]

14. This letter says it all

Nov. 7, 2003 12:00 AM


I am a Vietnam era veteran who is struck by deja vu.

Because daddy did not finish the job does not mean that "W" must.

The American people were lied to concerning the reasons - Vietnam.

The war was to be liberating because the people were so oppressed - Vietnam.

The war kept escalating, the killing of our boys kept adding up, and we were following a noble cause - Vietnam.

I think the president should just get out LBJ's old speeches and change Vietnam to Iraq. This way he will have much more time for fund-raising and vacations at the ranch while American blood stains the deserts of Iraq. - Edward Span
Phoenix

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/1107frilets074.html

[Mountainman]

15. I will not seek nor will I accept the nomination of my party for a second

term as your President.

LBJ said it, now it's time for the chimp in chief to say it too.

[truthspeaker]

19. another parallel

During the Vietnam War George W. Bush was drunk and AWOL. Just like now.