Documents Show Army Seized Wives As Tactic

[ECH1969]

The U.S. Army in Iraq has at least twice seized and jailed the wives of suspected insurgents in hopes of "leveraging" their husbands into surrender, U.S. military documents show.

In one case, a secretive task force locked up the young mother of a nursing baby, a U.S. intelligence officer reported. In the case of a second detainee, one American colonel suggested to another that they catch her husband by tacking a note to the family's door telling him "to come get his wife."

Iraqi human rights activist Hind al-Salehi contends that U.S. anti-insurgent units, coming up empty-handed in raids on suspects' houses, have at times detained wives to pressure men into turning themselves in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/27/AR2006012700921.html

[rodeodance]

1. We have heard the 'rumored' before.

[EFerrari]

48. We've been taking hostages since very early on --

long before the insurgents did. Wracking my brain to remember where I first read about it. It might have been Sy Hersh in The New Yorker but sorry, I can't recall at the moment but I remember I read it when the first batch of Abu Graib photos came out. It's no rumor, it's horrible shameful fact.

[MountainLaurel]

83. One of the first publicized cases

Involved the U.S. kidnapping the CHILDREN of one of the Iraqi generals to use as a bargaining tool for information.

[EFerrari]

89. Thank you. Yes. Our hostage taking seems to have fallen

off of the radar.

As did the fact that human rights orgs notified that whining bastiche Bremmer and he shook them off for a YEAR. A YEAR.

WE created this "insurgency". WE did that, provoked it, begged for it with our horrible behavior towards Iraqi civilians.

[meganmonkey]

2. That's just splendid

:puke:

a secretive task force locked up the young mother of a nursing baby

:cry:

What are they doing? With our money and our names, to these innocent families?

[KamaAina]

41. This has been today's "Culture of Life Moment",

brought to you by Bush**co, a wholly owned subsidiary of The Carlyle Group.

:grr: :banghead:

[saigon68]

119. Its the beginning of the solution to the anti-capitalist problem

It certainly keeps certain "groups" in line.

IE ---torturing children in front of their parents to obtain intelligence.

[TygrBright]

3. Oh. My. God.

WHEN are we going to stop playing "How Low Can You Go" here....?

Unbefuckinglievable.... except that I do believe it, with these people in charge.

furiously,
Bright

[enigami]

4. They used this technique in the American Civil War

It didn't work then either

[htuttle]

5. So, are we 'Hitler' yet?

[DIKB]

44. Simple Answer?

Yes.
Torture? Check.
Killing? Check.
Invading sovereign nations? check.
Propaganda? check.
Internment? check.

At the moment the only difference is that we lack is his numbers.

[doubleplusgood]

136. add arrogant overconfidence

Hitler on the Nazi invasion of Russia: "We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down"

Neo-con Ken Adelman on the invasion of Iraq: "Asked about the possibility that a war on Iraq—which he predicted would be a “cakewalk”—might upend governments in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, former UN ambassador Ken Adelman told Joshua Micah Marshall of Washington Monthly, “All the better if you ask me.”"

[CoffeeCat]

6. Just when I think I can't be more sickened by this misAdministration...

I'm so, so, so sick and tired of this.

It's almost too much to get on DU anymore. I almost want to live in denial,
and just tune out politics and sites such as DU, which give us the truth.

This makes me so fucking sick. I'm so outraged right now I could spit nails.

What the hell have we become?

Where is America? It sure as hell isn't between Canada and Mexico anymore!

Remember people!!!!! Freedom is on the fucking march!!!

Sickened. Beyond. Belief.

Now, I get to watch as this story withers away in the media--with not a damn thing being
done about it. If it does get two-minutes of attention, it will be some shill whore military
member saying that this is all a misunderstanding and it's not as bad as it sounds.

Fuck this!! And I never say fuck in real life!!!!!

:(

[VP505]

17. Jesus,

just what we need in Iraq!

[gratuitous]

7. This is a war crime

Collective reprisals and hostage-taking are against the Geneva Conventions. I wonder why our sterling military personnel didn't refuse to carry out these unlawful orders?

[Army]

12. Allow Me...

Because when they tried to, the Officer in Charge said something along the lines of "We aren't killing them, just detaining them. We are trying to catch terrorists. Do you want US soldiers to die, private, because you wanted to be nice to murderers?"

If you think a lower enlisted has the right to refuse, forget it. Someone who is commanded by these ass clown officers does what they are told. The blame for this lies with whoever was highest ranking and thought they could get a promotion and didn't care how they went about it.

[gratuitous]

22. I've just been assured over and over again

That our faultless star-spangled, freckle-faced troops would never, ever commit a war crime or carry out an illegal order, they'd all, every man-jack of them, absolutely refuse to do any such thing, standing on the rock solid principles of our country and the honor and integrity of our great military.

Instead, I keep reading about these war crimes, and hearing excuses for the cowards who committed them, and then have to listen to baseless allegations that serving in the military is some noble pursuit. It's a load of hogwash. The blame lies with the grunts who carried out the orders, the superiors who issued the orders, and the civilian authority over those military personnel. I don't know what the proportions of blame are that should attach and would leave that determination to an impartial tribunal to develop the facts and the evidence, but every last one of them should stand trial for these crimes.

[Army]

27. Agree to Disagree

We'll have to. A lot of these kids that the senior military have carry out these orders are 18 and are convinced that it is the right thing to do. Obviously killing someone without cause is the exception, but when the senior command is telling some freckle faced, or in the case of the infantry, dark skinned (more often than not) kid to do something because it is right for good ol Uncle Sam, that kid is probably going to do it.

The military can talk about the right to refuse all they want, but unless it is a matter of killing or torturing someone, these kids can be brainwashed into doing what they are told.

[gratuitous]

32. So everybody gets off?

Because some 18-year-old, fresh out of high school doesn't know any better, it's all okay? Is that what you're saying? No culpability for the brain washers, the brain washed, nobody, because the military talks a much better game than it plays in respecting human rights and the following the rules? No blame should attach to the kid, and without his testimony and support, who's going to prosecute his superiors? And how do we hold anyone accountable?

If that's what our military and our government are worth anymore, the judgment of a "brainwashed" 18-year-old, then perhaps it's time to start over. I don't accept it. I want them all tried, and let the punishment be meted out as the facts and evidence are developed. I don't think the military is above the law, just because it can persuade or scare some kid into doing its dirty work.

[Army]

33. For Pete's Sake

Did I SAY no one should be held accountable? To answer your question, the lowest ranking kid is the one who will ultimately pay. But they are not making the decision. The most senior ranking person should pay.

I will agree that I would rather all of them pay than none, but that isn't the way it works. The person who gave the order will get off, you can bet your Brass.

[EFerrari]

50. Welcome to DU, Army.

:)

[Army]

66. Feel Like a Narc at a Biker Rally

The way I'm getting stomped. yoiks:

Glad some smart people showed up to argue my position.:

[KAZ]

74. Don't feel that way.

I understand what you're posting. Thanks for the insight.

And welcome to DU!

[EFerrari]

85. I know. This is a really tense week here. We usually

aren't so reactive. On the other hand, there is a lot of mostly well deployed passion here.

I got stomped for a good hour last year when I was new and complained about something Senator Kerry did. It wore off.

:)

[Army]

149. Tense?

Don't know why. It seems that everyone in the country is on Bush and the Democrats surely will take the house if not the Senate as well. You should be popping the champagne corks on this group. Hell, they let me out in time and I'm going to take on our Republican't congressman in Georgia. Having said that I have no intention of accepting that no good whatsoever has been done here. Saddam was much much worse than we are, believe it or not. If you were not Baathist you were screwed. So fine, it wasn't our business, but we got rid of him.

They elected a new government, let's put them in place and get the hell out of here.

[bpilgrim]

155. "Saddam was much much worse than we are, believe it or not" ABU GHARIB

and other secret prisons and torture chambers are still in operation and there are even reports of US torturing children in-front of their mothers as well as other horrors and collective punishment.


fallujah reminds me of nanking.


http://207.3.145.250/flash/no_bravery
(still putting in the last images... it ain't gonna be pretty)

welcome to DU :hi:

peace

[Army]

158. Nice Propaganda

They could probably use you in the Army's PsyOp Battalions. Go find one of a soldier smacking a kitten, you left that one out.

[bpilgrim]

161. The Truth is called Propaganda today

I am a vet but wouldn't join todays military for anything and neither will my children.

Because I love my country I am doing everything in my power to spread the word on the terrible war crimes committed by our leaders and the horrible reputation they are giving our military in the hope that one day it will STOP.

check out my media archive for much more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Army]

166. Smacking Kittens

Seriously, there has to be one of that somewhere. Who knows photoshop?

I'm with ya, friend. I'm in the military and wouldn't join today's military!

[EFerrari]

164. Welcome back. And yes, here's to getting all our people

outta there and home ASAP.

[calazini]

110. Welcome Army - from a fellow newbie!

"I feel like a Narc at a Biker rally" - classic!

It's refreshing to have your perspective - keep it up!:toast:

[Joey Liberal]

116. Welcome to DU Army

Lot's of Army Vets here. We don't hate the Army. I personally question their leadership, and I feel that our Commander n Chief is a moron. Thanks for serving our country.

[Army]

140. Not Commander in Chief

Coward in Chief. He hid when his country called. Wonder if one of those mindless drones died in his place. That's why I came here. Couldn't live my life thinking some kid died because I ignored my orders.

And I was IRR. You see the 60% that didn't show up and they aren't doing anything to them? You folks think you have an axe to grind about Iraq, I'm Paul Bunyon.

And thanks for the greetings. :-)

[Joey Liberal]

156. Hey Army, read my response to this post:

"That's the way it has to be" is an excuse for not looking for a better way. And we need a better way to train our soldiers if they can be talked into doing inhumane actions against people in their homes who aren't fighting against them. I guess their training was real effective - some asshole gives an order and the drones respond. We desperately need a new way of training our military.
=======
Okay, let me set a few things straight here. I'm a former Army Basic Combat Training Instructor. So, I have at least a little first hand knowledge of how our troops are trained. Our troops are trained for combat. End of story. The problem we are having in Iraq is that our troops have found themselves, thanks to Bunnypants Bush, in the position of occupiers. Traditionally, our troops are trained to go in, kick ass, take objectives, and move on. Our young Soldiers and Marines are not being well led. They cannot be blamed. They are trained to fight and win wars. They have not been trained to be occupiers. We have lost our way. Soldiers that enlisted to fight the terrorists that attacked us on 9-11 now find themselves detaining women and children in Iraq. In the meantime, Osama Bin Laden is still making threats. Don't blame to grunts.

[Army]

157. Basic COMBAT Training - Not HA Training

We just had a bunch of 4th ID move in and these kids just do not know to question orders. In fact, it's specifically taught that they are not to if they want to stay alive. A young hispanic kid today that lives next door told me they were packing to go out. I asked where to and he didn't know. I asked for how long and he didn't know. He said they never tell them that stuff.

We marveled at it when I came it to work because in Special Ops we would never go outside the wire without every single detail of our mission and timeline. These kids are literally doing what they are told and being told to every step of the way. It's like Casualties of War in action. I have no doubt if one of this kid's superiors told him to kick in a door and shoot anything that moves he would do it. The kid would be responsible, but the people who know they have that kind of power over someone USE that power, you can bet your ass. And if there were hell to pay, you can bet that leadership would have no problem letting the kid take every bit of the blame using the "right to refuse" line.

It wouldn't be the kid's fault. No wonder so many vets are messed up after leading the existence the infantry and like MOS's do.

[ChickMagic]

82. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

We sort of have to be suspicious of newcomers since the
right wing hacks are obsessed with us. I hope that won't spoil
your time here - DUers are good people.

[Army]

143. Suspicious Minds

I don't begrudge that. I may be a Democrat, but more towards the Joe Lieberman side than Al Franken (though the new book is hilarious).

[SlavesandBulldozers]

148. fyi Joe Lieberman isn't a democrat.

saying that you're on the Joe Lieberman side won't win you many friends around here. Just sayin. It's not my intent to sound unwelcoming, I do welcome you.

[Army]

150. Wasn't My Intention

To get friends here, just to get a different view out. There is such a thing as a conservative Democrat.

I also like John Edwards. That worth any friends?

[MountainLaurel]

86. That didn't work at Nuremburg

And it won't work in this case. Nazi camp guards are still being tried in court for crimes against humanity.

[saigon68]

120. Nor at Bergen-Belsen

In her testimony at the trial, Juana Bormann denied that she was ever present at any gas chamber selections. She admitted that she had a dog at Auschwitz, but she said that she never made this dog attack anyone. She claimed that she might have been mistaken for another Overseer named Kuck who also had a dog. She said that she would have been severely punished if she had set her dog on the prisoners and that the beating of prisoners by an Overseer was strictly forbidden.

After working at Birkenau from 15 May 1943 to the end of December, 1943, Bormann testified that she came to Belsen in the middle of February, 1945, and was engaged in looking after a pigsty. At Belsen she did not come in contact with prisoners beyond her own party of prisoners. When prisoners disobeyed orders she boxed their ears or slapped their faces but never violently, she claimed.

On December 12, 1945 when the hangman made his calculations, Bormann was measured at 5 feet tall and she weighed in at 101 pounds. She was acquitted on the charges of beating prisoners at Bergen-Belsen but was convicted of war crimes at Auschwitz-Birkenau and was the last of the women to be hanged, right after the execution of Elisabeth Volkenrath.

[blackhorse]

117. Check.

General agreement with what you're saying, although with some differences.

The Nuremberg Trials held that following orders was no excuse. Interestingly, however, these trials focused on high level members of the Nazi hierarchy and not individual privates and corporals in either death camp guard units or units of the Nazi field forces. There have been cases against lower-rank individuals but IIRC they have not been state prosecutions conducted by the former allied nations, with perhaps the exception of postwar Germany, Israel, and the USSR. My take on the high-level focus on the Nuremberg Trials was that it was considered more effective to prosecute those who grievously abused their authority and thereby condemned millions to death at the hands of a berserk state.

In the U.S. forces, I noted a strong confusion in both officers and EM regarding ultimate loyalties. This IMO should not exist as the service oath is quite clear that a U.S. soldier's ultimate loyalty should be to the Constitution. Yes, (legal) orders from those of superior rank are to be followed - but not to the detriment of the Constitution. The loyalty conflict I noted was that personnel tended to be far more loyal to an immediate superior than to a distant and probably not-so-well understood document of government. This is likely human nature at work, but it is an issue that should be first recognized and then addressed within the military. A bedrock of conflicted loyalties is not healthy for any armed force. In the first years after World War II, this conflict appears to have been understood, as I recall officers who served in that era discussing the loyalty oath of the Wehrmacht officers to Hitler and how that example illustrated the need for American soldiers to maintain loyalty to the Constitution above that to any one person.

Of course, the pressure by fellow soldiers to conform is enormous. When the young soldiers find themselves thousands of miles from home, any urge they might have to question authority or orders is indeed weak. And the prospect of facing the hatred and contempt of the rest of the group is awful, particularly when that group is an armed band whose most basic notion is that they depend upon each other for survival. Again, it is precisely these dynamics that require officers to impose moral standards on unit behavior. Without that counter-pressure, unit behavior degenerates rapidly. The requirement for officers to impose moral standards is another reason why a politicized officer force is a bad idea.

Cheers

BH

[blackhorse]

123. Edited

On edit -- (board won't let me edit my post)

Meant "There have been cases against lower-rank individuals but IIRC they have not been state prosecutions conducted by the former allied nations, with perhaps the exception of postwar Germany, Israel, and the USSR."

To read:

"There have been cases against lower-rank individuals but IIRC they have not been state prosecutions conducted by the former allied nations, with perhaps the exception of the USSR."

BH

[gtar100]

35. So our soldiers are nothing but drones

"That's the way it has to be" is an excuse for not looking for a better way. And we need a better way to train our soldiers if they can be talked into doing inhumane actions against people in their homes who aren't fighting against them. I guess their training was real effective - some asshole gives an order and the drones respond. We desperately need a new way of training our military.

[Army]

38. Agreed

No arguement here, boss.

[MrScorpio]

47. Welcome to DU, Army. Really

We need more vets around like you, don't I know it.

You are very welcome here.

[Army]

68. Glad to be Here

I sense I'm on more on the 'conservative democrat' side here than most others...

[KAZ]

77. Don't be too sure.

Ex-Libertarian here. In many respects I was to the right of Rush.

There is a huge mix on DU, and IMHO, that's good!

[TygrBright]

84. naaaahhh...

We got all kinds, Army.

And there are lively factions, fights, snitfits, and other childish manifestations on an ongoing basis. We gotcher atheists vs. religious folks, yer animal-rights hardliners vs. humane-animal-testing-to-save-human-lives advocates, yer gun-grabbers vs. second-amendment warriors, yer vegans vs. carnivores, yer regulated-capitalists vs. hardcore reds, and everything in between. (Oh, yeh, and don't get me started on the Palestinian vs. Israeli tangles...)

But for the most part, the mods and/or cooler heads step in before the poo flinging gets outta hand.

But hey, if a Marine brat (moi) can say "welcome" to a grunt (polite, even!) it can't be too bad, hmmm? We need all kinds, especially those who know when to stand up for themselves and their positions firmly, politely, informatively, and when to step out of the sandbox, brush off, and go back to the living room to hang out with the adults.

And yes, I know what you mean about the pointy ends not having much choice when it comes to dirty jobs. Unfortunately, we've been far too lax in training standards, not to mention doing way too much "winking" at recruitment standards. Doesn't look like it's going to stop any time soon, either.

I think we can ALL agree that the honor of the services would be much the better for EVERYONE involved in whatever chain-of-command perpetrated THIS abomination seeing the inside of clink for a nice long time. Unfortunately, the dim son and cronies have fired, sidelined and/or reassigned most of the Generals who might have been inclined to sort stuff like this out. And until more service folks figure out just how thoroughly, consistently, and gleefully they're being shafted by GOPpie administrations, not much is going to change.

pessimistically,
Bright

[Army]

88. You Got THAT Right

Any of the leadership that had any sense in the military has been replaced or marginalized by President Mission Accomplished.

[KAZ]

91. What a wonderful post!

Forgive me if the handle doesn't ring a bell, but I loved your first paragraph.

[EFerrari]

96. I think here at DU we have been avoiding thinking this through.

What it really really means for my kid or yours, on the ground. What it means for all of them. What it means for all of us.

I appreciate this post. Will read it more than once. And puhleeze, let's keep working to get these bastards out of office. They have disrespected our service people from Day 1.

[MrScorpio]

99. No problem

This is the big tent

Just be honest.

That's all we need around here

[Joey Liberal]

118. I've got to disagree here

"That's the way it has to be" is an excuse for not looking for a better way. And we need a better way to train our soldiers if they can be talked into doing inhumane actions against people in their homes who aren't fighting against them. I guess their training was real effective - some asshole gives an order and the drones respond. We desperately need a new way of training our military.
=======
Okay, let me set a few things straight here. I'm a former Army Basic Combat Training Instructor. So, I have at least a little first hand knowledge of how our troops are trained. Our troops are trained for combat. End of story. The problem we are having in Iraq is that our troops have found themselves, thanks to Bunnypants Bush, in the position of occupiers. Traditionally, our troops are trained to go in, kick ass, take objectives, and move on. Our young Soldiers and Marines are not being well led. They cannot be blamed. They are trained to fight and win wars. They have not been trained to be occupiers. We have lost our way. Soldiers that enlisted to fight the terrorists that attacked us on 9-11 now find themselves detaining women and children in Iraq. In the meantime, Osama Bin Laden is still making threats. Don't blame to grunts. Blame the republican leaders in this country. They are in charge.

[imouttahere]

137. Among others, "The Fog of War" sheds some light....

not only on past war crimes but the mindset of military training. Even "the best and the brightest" committed atrocities in the name of "saving American lives." Who are we to start a war in someone else's country so we "don't have to fight it here"? This is the biggest reason why this so-called war will fail. But then I don't think BushCo cares if we ever win, they want perpetual war.

BTW, I served in the US Navy for 3 years in the 80's.

[Army]

159. Hey Sailor

"I served in the US Navy for 3 years in the 80's."

That's not my fault. :D

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Army]

39. Here we go

Wondered how long it would take someone to play the SS card and infer our troops are Nazis.

At Nuremburg they were on trial for gassing and killing millions of Jews. When a soldier is convicted of killing an Iraqi without cause he is punished...unless, and this has been my point all along, he or she is an officer. Then they get off.

[MrPrax]

49. They are...

truth hurts...Nuremburg's Protocols are international law for everyone--that was the intent...that is why the US among most others developed it, prosecuted under it and sign it.

Besides, this ain't over...you have some sorta crystal ball? How do YOU know that this will not ultimately lead to a 'war crime' far far in excess of anything that occured in Germany...

The whole idea is to PREVENT nation's soldiers as acting NO BETTER than Nazis...and they are well well on their way.

[Army]

54. The Truth?

The truth is that we are out there feeding and clothing thousands of Iraqis every day. The kids are so terrified of us that they come charging out of every nook and cranny towards us when they see us coming. People beg us to come to their houses and visit with them.

You honestly have no clue. I thought you guys were different than the idiot freepers. You aren't going to see the good stuff on CNN. These are isolated incidents of bad behavior, and you should be jumping up and down that you live in a country where these things are reported so that the bad seeds are rooted out.

That shouldn't give you such obvious glee to hate the military. I wonder if you had the balls to come over here if you would tell the kids who wouldn't have clean water to drink without us or clothes to wear that we are the same as a nation that killed six million Jews.

[MrPrax]

69. What the hell does

this have to do with anything?

So what...like Mussolini in Ethopia...you're not suppose to be in Iraq in the first place.

It's irrelevent how many blankets you hand out...

The Nazis DO have a history prior to 1945 when Patton kicking open the camp doors, you know? Let's hope that the American public finds out faster than the Germans.

Look what you wrote about a subject that has befuddled scholars for the last fifty years...
Gems of wisdom to you've added:

--18 yr. olds are impressionable!
--if there is a 'war crime', then the enlisted officers should get time too

Someone mentions to you Nuremburg and you go instinctly to the Talking Points...feign outrage and talk about how Auschwitz is different? from Abu Grahib I presume, because the people torturing people to DEATH are good guys with blankets and great intentions...

I only hate militaries if they do war crimes--especially in my name...and unlike you, I don't care what passport they carry.

[Army]

76. I Feign Outrage?

Good one. You knew very well (or maybe you didn't, I don't know which I'd rather think) that by mentioning Nuremburg you were evoking Nazi imagery. If I mention burning crosses to you what image does that bring up? Fire safety?

So now you choose to attack me personally about the "gems of wisdom" I've added? What makes you think that these 18 year olds have the knowledge you do to decide if detaining the wife of a murderer is the right thing to do or not.

And how many times do I have to say it before it sinks in: if harm came to these people then the people that did it should be punished.

Unlike YOU, MrPrax, I DO care about the people in this country who were beaten, raped, murdered and mutilated with no possible chance for recourse under Saddam. If I have no reason to be here then I guess we should go tell all of the locals who aren't terrified to leave their houses anymore and can actually vote and go to school and maybe have a future to go fuck themselves.

It isn't irrelevant how many blankets you hand out, sir, to the people getting the blankets.

[Voltaire99]

122. Playing the Saddam card...

...is no defense for this latest in a dreadful line of indecencies. You are substituting one form of evil for another.

Unlike YOU, MrPrax, I DO care about the people in this country who were beaten, raped, murdered and mutilated with no possible chance for recourse under Saddam.

So what? Your "care" is perpetuating a brutal, immoral occupation; your motives may be spotless, but the result is awful. Please care less, sir: the Iraqis deserve better.

[Army]

145. Brutal Occupation

The brutality is committed by the terrorists that used to be the people in charge. They haven't changed. And if a few knuckle draggers in the military are among those here's hoping they are all thrown out of choppers.

And yes, it is FEW in the military. But these would be bad people back in America. If a lunatic in a uniform shoots someone, then you take steps to punish the lunatic, you don't say "everyone in the Army is raping and murdering everyone in Iraq." Well you might, but you'd be ridiculous.

[ColonelTom]

125. Our enlisted men and women aren't there by choice

So what...like Mussolini in Ethopia...you're not suppose to be in Iraq in the first place.

It's irrelevent how many blankets you hand out...

That, my friend, is up to the Chimp in Chief. It's OUR job - not that of the rank-and-file in the military - to force Chimpy to get our troops out of Iraq. (Or, better yet, impeach the SOB and his henchmen and get someone with multiple brain cells and a conscience in the White House.)

Welcome to DU, Army! :toast:

[High Plains]

165. Plenty of them are there by choice.

I've run into the little bulletheads at different times at airports across the country. They're just aching to go over there and kick some ass. These are folks who enlisted after the war began and are looking for blood or action or something.

[ColonelTom]

169. Enlisted men & women = "little bulletheads"?

I'll grant you that there are probably some, but there are a hell of a lot of National Guard troops who had absolutely no intention of ever fighting a war overseas. Troops who believed that they'd be safeguarding Americans back home in natural disasters, etc., rather than fighting a war of choice on behalf of oil companies and defense contractors. Not to mention those troops in the Army and other branches of the military who chose to serve because they believe deeply in what this country stands for (or at least what it stood for before this war).

A side note - none of this is an excuse for kidnapping as a "military tactic." That's absolutely horrible; like torture, it undermines every bit of good that our troops have been able to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, and endangers military and civilians alike by eliminating any modicum of rules of engagement. I'm as sickened as anyone about it, believe me.

[noamnety]

93. wouldn't have clean water to drink without us?

In the interest of full disclosure, it should be noted that the reason they DON'T have clean water is because of us.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0808-07.htm

[Malikshah]

112. Uh...if you don't wish to feel like a narc at a biker rally

(a dated reference in a big big big way, btw) this last post tends to work against your cause, then...

It's the old pattern-- "you don't see what's going on" "they're not showing everything" "it's few bad apples" "glee to hate the military" What's next? Being called a baby killer? Being spat upon when one returned?

As a dependent (father retired full bird after 30 and brothers who been there done that as well) I grew up in the service. This sort of shit, whether isolated or not, doesn't fly. Nor does giving a guy a slap on the wrist for suffocating an Iraqi general. There's something rotten in Denmark when this sort of crap goes down--and if service men and women don't want to deal with the vitriol then they need to stand up and shout the loudest.

Oh, btw.. WTF with the Nazi reference... geezum crow. chill. have some dip. and get some new material.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

133. Gotta love the "you won't see the good stuff on CNN" LOL, I guess you can

tune in to FOX to see the good stuff we're doing over there...

minus the kidnappings of course.

[Army]

144. Not Over Here

You can only see the Pentagon news, so no bad news. But really, you guys obvioulsy don't see the good going on here. Millions and millions are happy we got rid of Saddam. Not that they won't be just as bad. It's tough. It's a Republican war. And if a Democrat wins the military will fight Democrat wars in Africa and the right wing will be all torn up over that. Some general said it a long time ago: The military doesn't start wars, polititions do.

[Army]

139. It wasn't my Nazi Reference

If you'll notice, the person that got a slap on the wrist for suffocating the Iraqi general was a WARRANT OFFICER. As In OFFICER, spelled A-W-F-U-L-S-I-R.

WTF brining up Nuremburg? I am not the one who did it.

[Malikshah]

141. Regardless-- the person was "exonerated" by a military jury

as for the WTF issue-- yes, I know Nuremburg was brought up-- and to be clear the issue argued is the "following orders" bit-- not the issue that (actually) 11+ million killed in the camps--
the emotional ploy doesn't work.

Get some new material-- folks might be more amenable.

[Army]

147. Get Some New Material...

Considering I am military, Democrat or not, it's obvious that a large section of this group has no intention of being amenable.

No matter how many times you say a circle is square, it doesn't make it so. The reference was to evoke Nazi imagery and relate that to today's military as you are well aware.

[Malikshah]

152. To quote Cyndi Lauper...

"Let your true colors come shining through..."

Considering I am military, Democrat or not, it's obvious that a large section of this group has no intention of being amenable.

Please. This statement goes a long way in proving to me that this whole discussion is disengenuous...

It appears that someone has taken to heart all the propaganda spewed forth regarding Dems and the military.

"No matter how many times you say a circle is a square..." How very telling that statement is in terms of your clear views concerning Dems and the military.

I repeat... get some new material. Think outside the box and try to stop generalizing about entire groups of people. Who knows, it might make a difference.

[Army]

154. It Just Might, True

Quoting Cyndi Lauper probably isn't the best way to make your point.

Some on the far left should stop generalizing about the military, it would probably help their cause.

It is absolutely crazy for you to argue that they don't given the posts on this very discussion.

I refuse to concede the entire party to the anti military fringe.

[Malikshah]

160. ?? Something wrong with Cyndi?

Your gross over-generalization is pretty standard fare for the "Dems-hate-the-military" parroting that one reads of

Hence my "Get new material" suggestion. It might at least work then.

[Army]

167. New Material

Okay, how about this one: "A Rabbi, a Priest and a Mormon walk into a bar..."


Cyndi's a little 'camp,' don't you think? I would have used something like "In the words of Tom Petty, Into the great wide open, A Rebel Without A Clue."

That would have showed me. The Cyndi thing just brought up images of her in the She Bop video with the top hat and cane at the end.

[struggle4progress]

114. Interesting news recently about all that supposed reconstruction

Audit: Money shifted
By Lolita Baldor
The Associated Press
Published: Friday, January 27, 2006

WASHINGTON - Billions of dollars in projects to improve water, sewer and electrical systems in Iraq could not be completed because the money had to be used to increase security, according to a government audit released Thursday.

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/01/27/a2.int.rebuild.0127.p1.php?section=nation_world


'Few Iraq projects to be completed'

Large numbers of projects that were promised by the American-financed reconstruction programme in Iraq will not be completed, it has emerged.

The New York Times said a report into the scheme had concluded that just 49 of the 136 projects pledged to improve water and sanitation would be finished ...

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=138212006


Report measures shortfall in Iraq goals

BAGHDAD, Iraq – The United States will not complete hundreds of basic water and electricity projects planned after the 2003 invasion because more than $3 billion was shifted to meet .. other needs, according to a U.S. government audit of reconstruction spending in Iraq issued Thursday.

In polls and everyday conversations, Iraqis routinely describe the lack of basic services such as clean water and a steady supply of electricity as perhaps the biggest problem facing the war-ravaged country, ranking it alongside – and often ahead of – insecurity and persistent insurgent violence ...

http://www.thedailyjournalonline.com/article.asp?ArticleId=219769&CategoryId=12395

[imouttahere]

138. This kind of thing will haunt the U.S.

eternally!!!!

[DemonFighterLives]

124. They had clean water before we shock and awed them

Nothing good about giving clothes and food back to people who already had that stuff, but now are lacking friends and relatives.

I served in the army too and this stuff is just despicable.
Welcome to DU!

[High Plains]

53. I said nothing about Nazis.

I was referring to international war crimes tribunals and the "I was only following orders" defense.

[Army]

56. Point Taken

In that case, I still refuse to accept that you should give the same punsihment to some kid that the person who gave the order gets. If noone is harmed, they should still lose their rank and be confined.

The order giver should be given prison for giving the unlawful order. But it doesn't work that way. John Edwards spoke of two Americas. When it comes to the military, he has no idea how true that is.

[coalition_unwilling]

62. The principle at state is, I believe, "command responsibility"

And the standard is whether those in command knew or should have known about the actions taken.

Using command responsibility as the principle, if Graner gets 10 years for Abu Graib, Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney should get life in prison without parole.

[Army]

65. There again

You wouldn't get a lot of arguement from me. But the standard is "direct" chain of command. If it were proven that Bush and those other Yahoo's had explicitly given the order - and who's to say they didn't - then they should be held accountable.

[oblivious]

81. At Nuremberg, they were also on trial for preemptive war + war crimes

The indictments were for:
1. participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace
2. planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crime against peace
3. war crimes
4. crimes against humanity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

[LiberalFighter]

67. Young adults do not have the experience and knowledge...

to analyze right from wrong necessary for their current line of work.

It is too easy to bluster them to do anything that a person in a position of power orders. They don't have anything to draw back on to decide whether it is right or wrong and they haven't acquired the ability to make good decisions on their feet.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

146. for a lesson

see how that argument worked at Nuremberg.

[pop goes the weasel]

59. not so simple

I just had a committee meeting this morning. Two dozen highly educated people were confronted with a proposal to add a new rule to our bureaucratic structure. The change was tabled temporarily because we didn't know if the what we were proposing was strictly legal. No lives, property, or freedom were involved, and we have the luxury of reconvening in a month and picking up the issue again, having studied it more in depth before doing anything at all.

What about the grunts on the ground in Iraq? They don't know the ins and outs of law; most are young and still getting a handle on what is simply ethical. They aren't "cowards," as you call them. They are legal naifs. They depend on their officers and the commander-in-chief to have already done what my committee did this morning--take the time to determine legality. Sure, they can tell if a major infraction is being committed--bayonetting children, for instance, is something even the youngest, greenest troop would know was wrong. But who you can detain? That is detail that is beyond their rank. Aim your anger where it belongs--on the officers and the idiot in charge who don't do their work, or who (even worse) set up the grunts as scapegoats for orders Rummy and * and everyone down to colonel knew to begin with were illegal.

Frankly, I don't see why we aren't following American civil rights in Iraq and elsewhere. That is, if we were really there to help establish justice and civil rights, we would be modelling our justice system and respect for civil rights so that Iraqis would have something to go on. The administration's refusal to extend the basic rights of due process to those suspected of sympathy toward "terrorists" (however that is defined at the moment) gives the lie to "spreading democracy" excuse for empire.

[Army]

63. Set up the Grunts as Scapegoats

THIS is my point. This happens over and over.

If only I were this eloquent. This whole post is exactly what I was trying to say.

Glad someone smart enough to say it right came along!

[TygrBright]

95. Pre-CISE-ly, pop...

>>Frankly, I don't see why we aren't following American civil rights in Iraq and elsewhere.<<

I don't, either, especially since the legality of not doing so is rather dicey. The Constitution of the United States applies to ALL individuals under American jurisdiction, not just American citizens. That would include individuals under U.S. military jurisdiction, with some modifications under international law and the UCMJ to account for the state of hostilities, etc.

But most WELL-EDUCATED ADULTS, in AMERICA, during PEACETIME, are unaware of that. It's not reasonable to assume that the youngsters who "joined up" as a way to get out of podunk and hopefully get some money for education, etc., and who are under fire and in constant danger, and who've been told to both obey and trust their superiors at the price of a spell in the clink, will be thinking about that. If the Commander-in-Chief is busily firing generals who disagree with him (gee, where else does THAT happen?) and putting things in the hands of asskissers, yes-men, and careersuckers, who are busy telling their subordinates to "fuck that, your job is to make this look good, meet your goals, screw the details," who are busy telling THEIR subordinates the same thing...

...are going to be able to say, "uh, Lieutenant... what about right here in the book where it sez..." when they're given a dicey order.

It's going to take a thorough shakeup FROM THE TOP down to change this sort of thing.

angrily (not at anyone here, though,)
Bright

[PassingFair]

55. Two words:

Hugh Thompson.

I will never believe again that one man cannot make the difference between murder and morality.

[Army]

58. Hugh Thompson Was Stopping Murder

This case isn't about murder. I'd agree with all of you if they were murdering the wives. If that comes out, I'll be the first one to say everyone should be prosecuted and even put to death (pro death penalty too).

[PassingFair]

64. We know that torture is occurring.

We KNOW that murder has occured.

I have heard that RAPE has been part of the mix.

Who's talking about prosecution?

I'm talking about one man refusing to do wrong.

And making a stand, even though it could have meant HIS body lying in the ditch.

I don't think we need to wonder what he thought about taking women hostage.

[Army]

70. And...

When murder and rape have occured they should be prosecuted. But I haven't seen where this specific story says they were. It said the wives were detained. If it turns out they were raped and or tortured then whoever did it, be it the lowliest private, should be punished severely.

Detaining someone does not meet that standard. The only one that should be punished is the one giving the order if no harm came to those women.

[PassingFair]

75. Do you expect the armed forces to prosecute THEMSELVES?

Thompson had DEAD ANIMALS left on his porch, YEARS after his heroic stand.
He was SHUNNED by the "guys" at the VFW.

Until EVERY human summons the courage to refuse to act immorally, we will be stuck in this
NEVER-ENDING cycle of war and violence.

There are ENOUGH horrible ways to die. By disease or accident.
War is an abomination.
Continuing to make excuses for the perpetrators, and sorry, we are PERPS in this "War",
just continues to put the stamp of respectability on atrocity.

Our military is being cruelly used.

[Lars39]

106. The detention itself is against Geneva Conventions.

[DemonFighterLives]

126. Exactly, thanks for pointing that out

Gonzales with his "quaint" Geneva Conventions remark has unleashed the dogs of hell.
:mad:
It all comes right from the top- Gonzales and knucklehead in chief who really gets off on torture and death.

[Jack Hamilton]

127. Detention Of wives

I do not believe any of us know enough about the details to be rendering judgment.During my first tour in Vietnam we took into custody the wives of Viet Cong on several occasions for investigative purposes. Most were released they were not mistreated and most were released. A few were found to be involved as much as the husbands. This could be the case here as well. I was in the army a long time. I do not believe that this would be the policy of the command. It could be some clueless S-2 officer. I just think we need more information.

[Lars39]

162. Did you even read the OP? This was done as a tactic to get

the husbands to co-operate.

[noamnety]

163. You can't kidnap a person without mistreating them

Kidnapping them IS mistreatment. Jailing without cause, holding them hostage is mistreatment.

"detaining" is a nice little word for it - if the brownshirts grabbed me off the street and threw me in prison indefinitely to use me as a hostage until my spouse confessed to something, I would have stronger words for it then "I was detained." Wouldn't you?

[Chimichurri]

57. Exactly correct. They are taking orders as they should as soldiers.

The blame is 100% on the leaders commanding them to detain and torture.

We all have seen what happens to whislteblowers in this administration. Murtha himself has said they've gone to him to be the messenger.

How can republicans stand by this administration, still is beyond me.

[atreides1]

71. Guess Again

Violations of the Geneva Conventions of which the United States is a signatory, is grounds to refuse an order.

The taking of hostages is in violation of the Conventions, and the last time I checked there were enlisted troops then officers or NCO's. In other words the troops have more firepower then a platoon/squad leader does.

Granted, some of the troops were afraid, but most went along with this willingly, and didn't speak out when it was being done.

As a former soldier I have gotten so sick and tired of the blame always being put on the leadership,
the poor soldiers don't have a choice, what a load of crap. The choice is to do what is right, and if you can't make that choice then evidently bad parenting has been running rampant for decades, or you just love to hurt people!!!!!

If you had read the article you would have seen that it was the civilian intel guy that was against this, the military didn't listen to what he said, and it wasn't until he threatened to file a complaint that they released the nursing mother.

Everyone here seems to jump at the chance to blame BushCo, the higher ups in the chain of command, but never seem to want to try to place some of the blame on the soldiers. People you need to start dealing with reality, just like the people of WWII Germany you cheer the troops and fail to hold them responsible for their actions.

The US military seems to have formed their own Einzatzgruppen, at least they haven't executed a village, yet!!!!

[Army]

79. Bad Eggs

Are everywhere. Doesn't make the whole organization bad. Love the Nazi imagery again, though.

Well, I've had fun with you cat's but I gotta go hit the sack so I can go oppress the locals with food and water again tomorrow.

Til Next time,
Ciao

[PassingFair]

102. "at least they haven't executed a village, yet!!!!"

We came damn close at Fallujah.

[Jack Hamilton]

128. Hostage

There is a difference between hostage and detention for good cause. We need more facts.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. That would be another war crime. nt.

[stillcool]

9. Iraqi women falsely imprisoned?...

I wonder what my husband would do to get me out of jail. Especially in the close approaching "alito-'no=rights'-world.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Remember the insurgent attacks on Abu Graihb a couple years

ago? Massive attacks that included mortars and rockets, intended to bring the place down -- they said at the time that they were attacking because the coalition held their women in there and they would rather see them dead than in the hands of the Americans.

[maxrandb]

10. And With Alito, they'll be able to do it to OUR WIVES!!

I guess it's not a joke anymore to say "here comes the Army, lock up your wives and your daughters".

This is why Alito must be stopped. They've been pulling this shit while we've had a "slightly to the left of Atilla the Hun" court. What will they do with a completely wing-nut court?

- Republican mouthpieces calling for the poisioning of Supreme Court justices?

- NSA Spying on Americans without even a wink and a nod from a court??

- Pentagon propaganda "blow-backing" into the "free" American press???

- Journalist bought and paid for with our tax dollars????

- Anti-gay, male prostitutes in the White House Press Corps?????

- FBI and Home Land Security officials spying on Vegans, Quakers, and PETA??????

- Photos and notes of White House meetings being disappeared???????

- Torture, secret prisons, citizens disappeared and held incognito, often in coutries that will crush the testicles of your children with a pair of vice-grips????????

- Secret CIA flights to rendition people to regimes that would make Saddam blush?????????

I seriously have OUTRAGE FATIGUE!!!!

How low do we have to sink, before the weight of all this crap causes our country to collapse??

[Oakland]

121. Maybe we could give them Laura....

She could mother them just like little Georgie.
Put that coke spoon down George and that bottle of whiskley, too.
Stand up straight - quit smirkin George.

[sui generis]

11. the other torture argument starts right here

If it's okay to torture someone then it must certainly be okay to torture their children in front of them.

If someone touched a child or loved one of mine to get at me they had better make damn sure I didn't survive the questioning, whatever the outcome.

What is the matter with this country?!? This is stage 4 cancer. We have got to cut it out.

[wakeme2008]

13. It is times like this I wonder about

"Supporting the Troops"

[AtomicKitten]

15. I am ashamed to be an American. NT

[jobycom]

16. I'm not. I'm ashamed that Bush is an American. nt.

[AtomicKitten]

30. I understand what you are saying except

I have deal with people outside this country who do not make the distinction.

[SupplyConcerns]

18. So, I wonder how much of a domest political threat I'd have to be

For them to lock up my wife, and starve my nursing child? Fortunately, I'm thinking of just stepping back and letting the whole rotten system implode under its own weight.

[stop the bleeding]

19. DEMOCRACY n/t

[maxrandb]

20. Hey, Don't you know; "Freedom isn't Free"

and "Democracy can be messy".

Why do you hate America?

:sarcasm:

[RazzleDazzle]

21. If these aren't war crimes they should be

And if anyone ever again wants to question whether or not our country has become the Fourth Reich, this nails it AFAIC (as the last item on a very, very long list). Sickening beyond belief -- taking a nursing mother? Unspeakable.

[Judi Lynn]

23. At the same time they prey on the direct love and concern of the husbands

for their wives, they turn and tell Americans what animals, what heathens these people are, whose greatest goal is to die in battle or commit suicide and cash it in so they can get their 72 virgins. It doesn't compute, does it?

[Village Idiot]

24. But when the insurgents kidnap people, it's "terrorism?"

sigh...

[hobbit709]

25. My mother says

that even the Soviet occupation troops were better than that at the end of the war

[Barrett808]

26. So when the Bush mafia said, "We don't take hostages" ...

...they were lying.

Of course.

[Jack Hamilton]

130. hostages

I dont really believe it is policy to take women hostage. But I have to admit I was afraid when the war started these young kids of the computer generation would not be able to hack it but you have to admit they have been great.I am so proud of these young troops I could just cheer. What great tough troops they turned out to be and there getting the job done.

[gtar100]

28. This is not our military protecting us. This hurts us...US

I know we want to support our military, and we do - with our active hope for their safety, active compassion for them on their return, and the taxes we willingly pay to maintain them. But I for one do not support this. Military brass and training methods are out of touch with what it is they are in the military for. Most recruits join to defend America, but they end up doing the bidding of thugs with more power and respect than they deserve.

But this is how the military of the US has acted since its inception - against the Native people, against the Mexicans, and even against our own in many labor disputes. There needs to be a revolutionary change in how the US "defends" itself. If the military approached its mission with a greater sense of human decency, I would bet they'd be turning people away from recruitment offices because they'd have no room for them. But instead, they continue the historical practice of atrocity as the means of conquest. I had hope in the '90s that maybe things were beginning to change, but Rumsfeld's take over has cured me of that. There are too many military officers who enjoy bloodshed, killing, and inhumane intimidation of people. And they are too cavalier in their dismissal of the consequences heaped upon innocent men, women and children who are caught in the midst of their "operations".

It's these people, who do these things in our name, that are causing the hatred of US. Imagine if this had happened to you and your family (not that any right-winger could make that intellectual leap). This is so heartbreaking.

[RagingInMiami]

29. The Medellin Cartel

used the same tactics back in the day. Except they called it "kidnapping".

[lostnfound]

31. Count me, Completely unsurpised.

Because I listen to Pacifica.

[Supersedeas]

34. fighting 'alleged' terrorists with REAL terror - good & evil gets grayer

[greiner3]

37. Jack-booted, knocking at the door in the middle of the night;

Oops, I thought that was a post for nazi germany. Sorry! :sarcasm:

[Justitia]

40. Wow! Kidnapping someone's wife! Now, that's what I call FAMILY VALUES!

In a post-Alito Extreme Court, I expect to see this tactic used here at home.

[jasmeel]

42. This makes me sick! Rate the story up on Yahoo!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_leveraging_wives

[4_TN_TITANS]

43. It explains to me....

the demands of the ones who took the latest journalist/hostage. It caught my attention when they said that they wanted all the women released from prision. Now I know why they were in jail to begin with.

[EFerrari]

51. This has been going on for years. We took hostages before

they did. We imprisoned and tortured innocent people for a whole year before Fallujah erupted. Fallujah is about 20km from Abu Graib.

But, they are the "barbarians" - right?

[Jack Hamilton]

129. barbarians

well we havent cutting off peoples heads filming it and placing it on the net. That has to count for something.

[DemonFighterLives]

151. You seem to have fallen for the psyops

Welcome to DU!

[entanglement]

45. I see we've learned a lot from that "ONE true democracy in the Middle East

oh wait, there are TWO of them now

[DinahMoeHum]

46. Well, well, no wonder the Iraqi insurgency is unrelenting !!

It's one thing to fight for a paycheck, like our soldiers and mercenaries do.

It's a completely different thing to fight for your home, your family, and your MANHOOD.


:evilfrown:

[phrenzy]

52. A little good news in this article

That the intelligence officer had the courage to try to stop this before it happened, and then ultimately stopped it after it happened. This at least shows everybody in the uniform is not a mindless 'order following machine' (although most are, by design)

[EFerrari]

60. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to suggest that this has stopped

although these particular individuals may be restored to their families.

:(

[Jack Hamilton]

131. Hostage

Thats another reason that shows that this is not policy, but some numskull with a bad idea.

[Jack Hamilton]

132. Hostage

Thats another reason that shows that this is not policy, but some numskull with a bad idea.

[truebrit71]

61. MSNBC now has it...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11061831/

Hmm, I always thought that detaining someone in order to "leverage" someone else was called "KIDNAPPING"....

Silly me....:shrug:

[KAZ]

80. Hostage taking in my book. n/t

n/t

[EFerrari]

90. Unambiguously, hostage taking. n/t

[leveymg]

72. Following an old military tradition>

[EFerrari]

92. And why we try to avoid war. Or, more truthfully, why we should. n/t

[FVZA_Colonel]

73. Couldn't this just lead to them deciding to fight harder?

Eom.

[bobthedrummer]

78. Special Access Programs, Stephen Cambone, General Boykin

and a whole lot of other folks condoned not only taking wives but other family members-some of this was explored by Seymour Hersh in "Chain of Command" (2004).

God knows what else has been going on.

[EFerrari]

87. Thank you! I COULD NOT remember where I read this.

But it was a good year ago. This is not news. And Sy Hersh has been on it.

[HuffleClaw]

94. a blatant violation of the geneva conventions

and about damned time the 'real' media picked up this story. and it was a hell of a lot more than 'at least twice'.

[leftchick]

97. THEY TORTURED THAT WOMAN!

<snip>

"The 28-year-old woman had three young children at the house, one being as young as six months and still nursing," the intelligence officer wrote. She was held for two days and was released after he complained, he said.


Both physically and emotionally by not letting her feed her baby for 2 whole days! That is torture!

[EFerrari]

100. Yes, that is torture. And collateral damage to the baby.

This is being done in OUR NAME WITH OUR TAX MONEY.

[old blue]

98. silver lining: I suppose this is better than carpet-bombing them n/t

[Seen the light]

101. Interesting that this comes out during the Alito stuff

People at places like DU are distracted by doing all they can to prevent Alito from being confirmed. Great timing there Washington Post. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

103. Holding family members is a war crime

There are going to be a lot of defendants when the inevitable day comes in which all of the war criminals of the Bush dictatorship are held accountable in a Nuremberg-style court, on American soil, where they can receive the death penalty.

[RDANGELO]

104. another reason why military occupations should be avoided

Inevitably you have an insurgency, and the civilian population will be tied to the insurgency. You come down to the safety of the troops against the opposing the civilian population. Eventually you will have abuses on the civilian population which makes the insurgency stronger.Military force should always be used wisely and prudently in situations where we are clearly defending ourselves and not recklessly as in the Iraq war.

[muntrv]

105. WELL!!!

Who's really giving comfort to the enemy, John Asscraft?

[tirechewer]

107. I wonder.....

I wonder if these arrests of the wives of insurgents might not have been contributory to the grabbing of Jill Carroll from the Christian Science Monitor. It has been happening within the same time frame and what her captors were asking for was the release of Iraqi women from prison.

This makes it doubly venial that the Bush administration waited until today to release five women. They knew that the US was arresting family members. I'm sure the orders came from high in the Pentagon and were not something the soldiers thought up on their own. Then with that knowledge the Bush administration sat there on their hands until the deadline for her release had passed. No one knows where she is or if she is even still alive.

The fact that Ms Carroll was sympathetic to the people of Iraq probably helped the administration to sit on their collective butts and twist in the wind. After hearing this, I am even more sickened by their inaction than I was before.

[SurfRidem]

108. I know some dudes who think it would be great...

if the army would seize their wives.

[lovuian]

109. We have sunk to new lows

these kinda tactics shows desperation... More Oppression means more opposition...

[Nothing Without Hope]

111. K & R. Of course the Bush ass-kissers in the media and Congress will

excuse this too. After all, gotta get those "terraists" and anything goes.

They'll be using the same tactics on domestic US "enemies" - read dissenters - given a chance. I believe it's an old fascist standard.

[Nothing Without Hope]

113. ***RELATED THREAD: breastfeeding mothers not allowed to nurse:

based on a Yahoo News article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2401397
thread title (1-27-06 GD): Not Allowing an Iraqi Woman to Breastfeed her Baby for 2 Days is Torture.

[Joey Liberal]

115. Our Army has become the bad guys

I don't blame the troops. I blame the commanders that ordered this crap.

[occuserpens]

134. Female, baby, foetus "islamofascists" and the heap paradox

2006-01-28 Female, baby, foetus "islamofascists" and the heap paradox

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

135. Well, this is what happens when the "end justifies the means". If the

motto is, we'll do ANYTHING to save American lives, troops or otherwise, then that means ANYTHING. The "gloves are off!"

Suffocate some guy in a sleeping bag after beating him? ANYTHING.
Kidnap some dude's wife or kids to try and get him to talk? ANYTHING.
Threaten to rape his wife in front of him? Carry out the threat? ANYTHING.
Crush some kid's testicles to get his suspected suicide bomber uncle to talk? ANYTHING.

After all, American lives are at stake! The American SOUL has already been lost, so no sweat there!

But it's all good, though, because, being Americans, we have the MORAL HIGH GROUND! :sarcasm:

[saigon68]

142. HERE IS THE MORAL HIGH GROUND

A baton-wielding THUG , appears to be ordering a naked detainee
covered in a "brown substance" to walk a straight line with his ankles handcuffed.

[PurpleChez]

153. They hate us for our freedoms. Yeah...right....

They hate us because we're assholes. Wait...no.... They hate us because our president is an asshole. I refuse to be lumped with him in any way.

[Army]

168. Freedom

They hate us for what they THINK is our freedom. We are wire tapping and mail tampering among other things while telling them how to run a free society.