Iraqis protest against anti-Islamic Danish cartoons

[norml]

Iraqis protest against anti-Islamic Danish cartoons
43 minutes ago


BAGHDAD (AFP) - With fiery sermons and raucous demonstrations, Iraqis called for an investigation into Danish and Norwegian publications carrying cartoons deemed offensive to the Prophet Mohammed.

Iraq is the latest Muslim country to enter the fray over the cartoons, which has seen the withdrawal of ambassadors, boycotts of products and widespread Muslim condemnation of the Danish government's stance.

On January 10, the Norwegian Christian publication Magazinet reprinted the 12 satirical cartoons as a gesture of solidarity with the conservative Danish daily Jyllands-Posten, which originally ignited the controversy in September.

The publications, who describe the whole affair as an attack on freedom of expression, have been supported by their governments and professional association.

Muslims both in Denmark and around the world have protested the cartoons, which include portrayal of the Prophet wearing a time-bomb shaped turban and show him as a wild-eyed, knife-wielding bedouin flanked by two women shrouded in black.


snip


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060127/wl_mideast_afp/iraqdenmarknorway

Here's a link to the cartoons...

http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Thank you for posting the cartoons

Personally, though I believe everyone has the right to free expression, I found many of these offensive. If I lived in Denmark, I'd probably write a LTTE about them, from the standpoint that many of the cartoons, such as the one with Mohammed holding a curved sword with two veiled women beside him, as inflammatory against all Muslims, portraying us as all either bloodthirsty men or cowering subservient women. I would say that I draw the line as to what should be published by the "crying fire in a crowded theater" concept-if any of these cartoons caused anti-Islamic sentiment, be it roughing up a Muslim on the street, throwing pig's blood at a mosque, or ripping off the headscarf of a Muslim woman-then I believe the paper should apologize and curb their use of such cartoons. If these things haven't happened, then I would have to grit my teeth.

Realize that I am a liberal Muslim; many of my brothers and sisters of a more conservative bent are offended not only by the content of the cartoons but the fact that Mohammed is shown, as it is not permitted to show a picture of The Prophet (the reason being that one prays to God alone, and doesn't raise anyone, even Mohammed, to divine status). I can understand these people's distress, just as I can understand the distress of Christians who were incensed when an artist showed Jesus (or maybe Mary) in a jar or urine. The desicration is, in the eyes of those who believe in their respective prophets, quite similar, I believe.

[norml]

10. You're welcome, and thank you for your thoughtful response.

While I don't want to be rude or personally upsetting to any good people I do believe it's a matter of to each his own as far as what sorts of expressions one enjoys.

I suppose I've done some art intended to deliberately annoy some people.

Of course complaining about something you don't like is something in general that I support also.

[loudsue]

31. This is also how American journalists portray Democrats & liberals.

There is NO respect for the differences in people's perspectives any longer. Everyone is supposed to be on the same page these days....according to the media. They all seem to be on message.

:kick:

[Emendator]

52. Wrong

Depicting Mohammed is permitted if someone is not a Muslim. The fact that there are Muslim religious figures calling for the people behind these comics to be punished is very disturbing. If they did have the power to go after the publishers, they would. The priorities of the Muslim world are out of whack, as it gets upset about some harmless cartoon on the other side of the world instead of reforming its societies. Maybe if it would get its act together it would be considered a member of the civilized world, instead of its laughingstock. Too bad if you or Muslims don't like it.

This type of buffoonery on the part of Muslims is only going to lead to moderate non-Muslims coming to the conclusion that the Islamic world is hopelessly lost and irredeemable. As a result, they will not shed a tear when the next Muslim country is attacked by the US.

[KitSileya]

56. I actually thought the Muhammed + two women caricature

was very spot on - that many Muslim women have to cover themselves except their eyes, while Muhammed (by implication, Muslim men) cover their eyes, i.e., refuse to see.

[Hatalles]

60. There's nothing spot-on about stereotypes.

[flint84]

61. Of course there is

Why does everyone want to deny that stereotypes form for a reason? Of course they are partially, and sometimes entirely, accurate.

[hippywife]

77. No they are used

to create hard feelings and division between people and make it easier to demean others.

[malaise]

73. I hate all religions equally

and while I support Muslims boycotting any product they like, I cannot support this ridiculous response to cartoons. Still, wasn't The book of Daniel dropped from NBC as a result of protests from religious freaks in the US?

It seems to me that the obvious anti-Muslim sentiments in the West stoked this fire and I can't help but wodner whether this was deliberate. These cartoons are months old.

[hippywife]

75. Not spot on if untrue.

From what I've seen and read, Muhammed never held such sexist and repressive views of women.

[Redstone]

2. The Danish people I've met see like such nice people, but

this is not the first time I've heard that they're REALLY that they're really racist as a group, so there must be some truth to it.

Maybe it's time for that Lego boycott.

Redstone

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. It's not race, it's religion (n/t)

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. Judging From The Eighth Cartoon Down The List

the cartoonist might beg to differ.

[Bjornsdotter]

24. Boycott Lego

...if you want, but the Danes are some of the nicest people in the world. Racist? Probably some just like any nationality, but as a group...NO.

Cheers!

[smirkymonkey]

28. This is true of most Danish people I have met, even though they

are very nice in general. Unlike many Americans, they make no attempt to hide their racism either. They are very matter-of-fact about it. According to the Danes I know, they blame the Muslims for the deterioration of their peaceful, relatively crime free society and for heavily burdening the generous social welfare system (NOTE: I am only repeating what I have heard from them - I am not claiming this is true, as I have no idea of what it is actually like in Denmark myself.)

[Jackpine Radical]

53. Yes, there is a racist streak in the Danes.

That must be why in WWII they turned over all their Jews to the Nazis instead of smuggling them across to Sweden or something. The king probably should have come out in public wearing a yellow star to express his solidarity with the Jews too.

[JVS]

70. I can't believe that he they/he did nothing!

;-)

[Village Idiot]

3. I didn't find them offensive, but I am not Muslim...

The Danes / Norweigians however, have put up with just about enough from Islamic Immigrants - I think you may see this kind of stuff become more prevalent and/or develop more of an edge in future...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. I am curious-what have they "put up with"?

When did immigration to these countries start? Were the Muslims invited, or did they just come? I know Germany had a guestworker program which attracted a lot of Turks to the country to do jobs that apparently Germans didn't want to do. And then Germany was reunified, and there have been problems with the Turks, I guess because East Germans are willing to do the jobs the Turks were brought in to do. Just what have the Muslims done that has raised tempers in Denmark?

I don't hear much about that part of the world, and I'd appreciate some more information, so that I can better understand the situation. Thanks!

[smirkymonkey]

29. According to my Danish friends, they claim that Muslim immigrants

are responsible for increased crime, often related to their intolerance of the progressive Danish culture, and placing an increased burden on the social welfare system.

The Danes resent the fact that these immigrants are coming to their country and bringing crime and intolerance with them (which in turn produces intolerance on the part of the host country.) It is similar to what is happening in Holland. I really don't know, as I am not a citizen of either country, but I do know that many Scandinavians in general are pretty fed-up with the situation.

[KDLarsen]

38. This might be true for a small group..

.. say about 100 people (about as many that cast a vote for the Danish NAZI party in the last General Election). The fact is (despite many people having a very selective memory about it) that Denmark invited most of these people here, back in the 70's where there just wasn't enough people available for the working industry. Unfortunately, it takes a thousand good deeds from an emigrant to reverse one bad deed done by another, and the Danish media just loves making new headlines featuring an emigrant (or a descendant of one) having done a bad deed.

[anitar1]

46. From articles I have read about the problems in

Holland, I think they wanted the immigrants there and naively thought that they would be assimilated and converted in time. But Muslims have a hard time becoming employed. Some simply do not have the skills for available jobs. But probably the worst thing is discrimination. After growing up in So.Calif. I can attest to the discrimination I witnessed against the Latinos and Blacks. It is so ugly. Same thing , different country.

[KDLarsen]

48. I agree that there are problems..

.. most likely with the elder generation who may have had a hard time getting used to the Danish society & culture. As for being naive about them, I think most people thought that either the industrial boom would last forever, or that the emigrants would simply return to their homecountry once their job here was finished. However, the government subsequently opened up for the emigrants to bring their family to this country & thus many made Denmark their new home country. About their qualifications - some of the people that came here in the 70's & 80's had gone to university in their home-country, but many were unable to convince the Danish employers that a Syrian, Iranian or Lebanese medical/legal/engineering/etc education had the same standard as the Danish equivalent, and thus they found themselves forced to take up jobs that required no qualifications (ie. cleaning jobs, jobs in the heavy industry etc). This has only recently started to reverse, but I guess it'll take a while to get rid of the discrimination.

[amandabeech]

43. My sources indicate that an elevated level of violence against women

is an issue. Sexual assaults against women in Western dress are said to be particularly a problem.

[Adelante]

44. Reminds me of a French guest

A couple of summers ago. And this guy is educated and liberal, an artist. I was very surprised, but he was talking in similar ways. I think Europe is relatively new at immigration and may find it problematic for a while to come. Part of it must be that many immigrants today seem to assimilate less than in the past and native born citizens take it as new arrivals don't care enough for the society they are entering and, at the same time, expect the society to change for them. I don't think it is as simple as race or religion, although it's part of it, but cultural disruption on a very large scale.

[smirkymonkey]

50. I have noticed it w/ other Europeans as well.

They love to criticize the US for our "racism" but to be honest, when it comes right down to it, under similar conditions they are much more racist than we are. I think it has a lot to do with the assimilation factor, which I can understand to a point - especially in Scandinavia, which are model cultures of liberalism.

Most of the immigrants come from cultures that would never tolerate the situation if it were reversed. I don't see how one can expect a host culture to be tolerant when the immigrants themselves are intolerant of their new society.

[Adelante]

51. So true

If we imagine the modern migration reversed, what do we get? Just as you'd expect. Or for a closer example, if all of the Americans who want to migrate to Canada actually did; or if 1-3 million Mexicans a year who cross the US border illegally just kept on going north into Canada. Even an enlightened country such as Canada would find it hard to cope with the cultural and economic dislocation.

But as far as Europe goes on immigration, I think they are just behind the curve and will evolve as issues are met and resolved. We can look back to the Irish wave in the 19th century to see these horrid reactions in ourselves, but at the same time recognize that it was not easy on native born Americans, either. It's all very complicated and takes a very long time. But we have always been an immigrant nation and have every generation had to adjust to the new and immigrants have had to adjust to the old.

In my own family, marrying Italians was a shock to the sensibilities. My uncle had an awful time of it when he married my aunt after WWII. Came the time his son grew up and married a Puerto Rican and my uncle almost had heart failure and refused to attend the wedding. He and his daughter in law came to love each other very much subsequently and still do. So these dramas have to play out on every level of society before attitudes change. And Europe's history is much different, much older and much more deeply rooted, despite its relatively recent, socially conscious belief system. It's a struggle, but one they can't avoid in these times.

[hippywife]

79. They don't have to but

unfortunately they sometimes happen.

In my own family, marrying Italians was a shock to the sensibilities. My uncle had an awful time of it when he married my aunt after WWII. Came the time his son grew up and married a Puerto Rican and my uncle almost had heart failure and refused to attend the wedding. He and his daughter in law came to love each other very much subsequently and still do. So these dramas have to play out on every level of society before attitudes change. And Europe's history is much different, much older and much more deeply rooted, despite its relatively recent, socially conscious belief system. It's a struggle, but one they can't avoid in these times.

In any human relationship, if each person looked past the learned stereotypes and fears of the differences and saw the other as a fellow human, inhabitant of the same small planet, these things wouldn't have to happen at all.

You've Got To Be Carefully Taught
by Rodgers and Hammerstein

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

[KitSileya]

57. Not to mention,

that in Norway, a lot of the more gruesome murders of women, both foreign-born and native Norwegian, lately have been done by foreign men. I'm not saying that Norwegian men don't kill women as well, and they're equally well publicized, but it does seem that foreign men, and Arabic men in particular, have been accused of killing their wives or their daughters in many very serious cases.

[brentspeak]

4. This is one of the things I don't like about the UN:

(from the link to the cartoons): "Responding to a complaint by the Organization of Islamic Conferences (OIC) over twelve caricatures of the prophet Muhammad published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last September, Louise Arbour - United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights - has appointed two UN experts on racism to carry out a detailed investigation into what Arbour characterizes as a “disrespect for belief.”

A detailed investigation into a "disrespect for belief". :eyes:

So the UN is now involved in the PC thought police business?

[MrPrax]

5. Round Two...

I figured this would start making the propaganda rounds soon enough when I read about the SAUDIS recalled their Ambassador.

The Saudis would probably be equally offended if the Prophet was depicting as MV employee handing a woman a drivers' license as well.

I am sure the 'Muslim street' this slight by the West ranks high on the radar...jeez can't imagine what they happen over that Spike TV cartoon (Moses vs. Mohammed) for their videogame talk/variety show...oh I found it...

Muslim Freepers in to the Charge...
http://www.yanabi.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=18&threadid=11669&forumid=1

Note some of the 'censor' of link sites...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. A different culture, a different idea of what is proper

Some people aren't offended if Jesus or Mary are portraited around human excrement-they say it is simply art. But many Christians, I have been told, are offended by these things. In Islam, you simply don't show an image of the Prophet. It has to do with the fact that Muslims worship God alone, and feel that an image of Mohammed would be like a graven image is to Jews. My concern about the cartoons has nothing to do with artistic expression, but rather with their intent. If the intention of the artist was to inflame the public so that one group or another decides it is ok to do the other group serious harm, then they are way out of line, like the old Nazi propaganda cartoons of Jews.

[MrPrax]

25. No Dice...

It was political comment...and more to the point it was political comment in Denmark.

The heckler's veto for religion doesn't work with me.

Political ideas trump religious sensibilities ALWAYS.

Besides...why is the Saudi gov't giving the appearance of what should be only construed as fanning anti-western religious intolerance, huh? The Dutch are still deployed in Iraq, no?

Saudi Arabia is one of the most intolerant religious regimes on the planet that takes a distinct displease at western influence in it's own country to the most outrageous extremes...who the hell are they to even remotely voice displeasure with what Denamrk or any other country does.

The nerve...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. Political ideas always trump religious sensibilities?

Then you would have supported the anti Jewish cartoons and propaganda put out by the Nazis? When political ideas are used to stir up hatred and intolerance against a religious group, I believe they should be, at the very least, investigated. If you read one of my posts earlier in this thread, you would see that I said that though many of the cartoons personally offended me, I would grit my teeth and allow them to continue to be published as long as they did not stir up violence. This is the limit of free speech, imho-it is like one Supreme Court justice who said your right to free speech did not include yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

I will not defend the Saudis or what their government does. As a Sufi, I would not be allowed to practice my form of Islam there and might even be prosecuted for it, as the Wahhabists, I believe, think of Sufis as heretics. My comments about the cartoons were from my position as an American Muslim.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Anti-Mohammed is not the same as anti-Muslim

and I think you recognise this when you say "as long as they did not stir up violence". Sensibilities may be offended, but that does not stir up violence. Anti-Jewish cartoons and propaganda, on the other hand, did stir up violence - by saying the behaviour of living Jews (implying all of them), not a historical figure, was evil.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Ah, but it has

my husband's life has been threatened. Mosques have been desicrated. No, you don't hear about it on the news media, but then do they want anyone to know about this? No, they don't. But I do think anit-Mohammed IS implying anti-Islam. Would you say that someone who did a cartoon ridiculing Jesus would not be considered a slap at all Christians by those of that faith?

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. Was it cartoons or articles critical of Mohammed that stirred that up?

A slap at a faith is not the same as inciting hatred of the followers. It may make the followers feel bad, but it doesn't make someone else more likely to physically attack them. Saying communism is bad economics, and that Marx was stupid, doesn't imply that communists should be assaulted.

I'm sorry to hear that about your husband.

[CJCRANE]

68. Just replace the

name Mohamed with Moses in these cartoons. Now they're anti-semitic and Moses would be inferred as representing all Jews. The comparison is obvious.

[amandabeech]

72. We let the Nazis march in Skokie, a heavily jewish suburb of Chicago.

Skokie and the surrounding area are and were heavily Jewish and home to a number of Holocaust survivors. There was heavy police guard and a general shunning.

I personally witnessed a Nazi rally in downtown Chicago in the late 1970s. There were about 30 Nazis, 5-10,000 very angry protesters and hundreds of Chicago police officers. The rally lasted about 15-20 minutes before the police told the Nazis to pack it in because the police could no longer guarantee their safety. The Nazis hustled into their vans under police protection and departed the scene to the triumphal screams of the protesters. Something similar happened in Toledo, Ohio, last year, but on a much smaller scale.

This illustrates the general U.S. approach to Nazis, and indeed, racists and others with objectionable beliefs. They are allowed to demonstrate, publish and speak, but their filth receives the rejection and vilification that it deserves. Hold that stuff up to the light of day and people see the stuff for the evil that it is. Free speech is self-correcting, and does not allow vile beliefs to simmer and build under the surface.

[darkism]

6. Conservatism has no place in Scandinavia

I'm appalled that such conservative hate rags are allowed to exist in some of the world's most progressive nations. Prosecute these people for peddling hatred like Sweden did to the anti-gay priest.

[rinsd]

21. You win the Orwell award for newspeak

"I'm appalled that such conservative hate rags are allowed to exist in some of the world's most progressive nations"

Because if the freedom of expression/speech weren't allowed, the society would cease to be progressive.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

7. Oh please....

The same cartoonist previously drew pictures about the Pope not hiding child abuse among the Catholics, and Sharon tearing out the foundations of a peaceful settlement while the world was trying to build it up. He has a right to his opinions, and a right to publish them without threat of violence.

If the vast bulk of Muslims support violent Fatwas - even tacitly - they don't then get to complain about always being under suspicion everywhere they go.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Where did you take your census?

As a Muslim, I take umbrage with your undocumented alligation that "the vast bulk of Muslims support violent Fatwas". Personally, I know of NO Muslim who thinks violent fatwas are right, and many have gone public with this notion, most notably some 500 imams and religious scholars in this country. Perhaps you think I am overly sensitive, but my husband and I have been threatened by "good Americans" who think we should be killed or sent to an internment camp simply because of our faith. I know of Islamic groups in this country who have over and over again spoken out against the perpetrators of hate, calling them (rightly, imho) not Muslims and not followers of the Qur'an. And some of these people and places have had businesses and mosques vandalized, and threats have been made against them as well.

I find it discouraging to discover DUers who have such prejudiced notions about Islam and who believes what in regards to Fatwas.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

26. Answer: Outside of America

I am well aware that American Muslims have led the world in declaring terrorism to be unacceptable. And to their great credit, it's clear that ordinary worshipers have been pushing their leadership toward the right side on this issue. Last July's Fatwa was a sorely needed statement -- even if it was nearly four years late.

Still, even this explicit rejection of terrorism is very much a minority opinion outside the U.S. It hardly takes a poll (though there are many). Just look through the writings of the Muslim Brotherhood or the various Jihadist Salafists. The upshot is that if people could vote what they wanted across Arabia, Hamas (or the equivalent) would win just about everywhere.

My point was not directed against you. It is unfortunate that, just as Democrats often get accosted going overseas because of the policies of Bush, average patriotic American Muslims - who are often the only true followers of the prophet - suffer guilt by association. But to quote another holy text, Middle East fanatics shall reap what they sow.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Solon]

58. I really hate bigotry displayed on this board...

despite your attempt at defending American Muslims(lame attempt at that), you show gross ignorance at both the hows and whys, in addition to facts, about the rise and lack thereof in some places, of Muslim Fundelmentalism. First, regardless of what you think, calling God by the Arabic name does not make you a Muslim. Hamas, which will probably trip you up, also calls Christians as members as well. Granted Muslims make up a majority, but quite a few of the Palestinians are also Christian, including Arafat's widow. Not to mention that before this "War on Terror" moderates and liberal Muslims were actually making strides in countries like Iran. In the wake of the student protests against the Mullahs of that country, and the oppressive laws, reformists were going to be posed to possibly depose the theocratic regime. That's gone now, due to our invasion of Iraq, fear has replaced hope, and now the Mullahs are as powerful as ever, and we have no one to blame but ourselves for our foolishness. Same could be said about Hamas victory in the elections. How are the Palestinians to trust either the US or Israel in anything if we demonstrate that we will use force before diplomacy? This is a reaction to an extreme, that is all, and the instigators of that is the United States.

Besides which, it isn't even Muslims themselves that are the problem, Fundelmentalism is rising everywhere, India, as an example, is an officially secular state, one where even Muslims have won the Presidency with little fanfare or strife. Now, they are terrorized by Hindu Fundlementalists who go into their neighborhoods in roving bands and kill indiscriminately, and they get little support from the government. Fundlementalists have taken over the US government, in addition to Iraq, thanks to us, and is rising everywhere, it doesn't matter what specific tenets are followed by Fundlementalists everywhere, it only leads to strife, hatred, and violence against the "other", regardless of what that other is. Also, just a note, if Muslims must suffer from guilt by association, so do Christians, so Christians, stop bitching on this board when another clinic bombing, doctor assasination, or other example of violence occurs due to Christian beliefs, I blame ALL Christians, its only fair, after all.

[Adelante]

45. "vast bulk of Muslims support violent Fatwas"

That's over the top.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. i think the cartoons are funny

i think its weird to be all PC about islam when i am ready to mock catholic priests/pope and other organized religions

[Centered]

9. that is very true

and I bet it has something to do with the belief (and fear) that Catholics and/or Christians or Jews wont KILL you for "direspecting" their religions.

If the Pope had issued a 3 million dollar reward for anyone killing the director of "The last temptation of Christ" the world would be in an uproar. But apparently Muslims get a pass.

quote:
"In the name of God Almighty. There is only one God, to whom we shall all return. I would like to inform all intrepid Muslims in the world that the author of the book entitled The Satanic Verses, which has been compiled, printed, and published in opposition to Islam, the Prophet, and the Qur’an, as well as those publishers who were aware of its contents, have been sentenced to death. I call on all zealous Muslims to execute them quickly, wherever they find them, so that no one will dare insult the Islamic sanctities. Whoever is killed on this path will be regarded as a martyr, God willing. In addition, anyone who has access to the author of the book, but does not possess the power to execute him, should refer him to the people so that he may be punished for his actions. May God’s blessing be on you all."
-Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie

interesting note...
In early 2005, Khomeini's fatwa against Rushdie was reaffirmed by Iran's spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in a message to Muslim pilgrims making the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. In response to requests to withdraw the fatwa, Iran has stated that only the person who issued it may withdraw it; Khomeini, however, died in 1989.

Hmmmmm gosh folks we would like to stop the hunt for this man but shucks... we can't do anything now. :sarcasm:


Religion and Politics can only serve to seperate all great peoples.

PS To any Muslims who are even remotely offended.... please dont kill me :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. thats not what i meant..

i just meants its weird to not offend one religion when you are willing to offend another

its the latent fear that all muslims will try to kill you..which isnt true

and also christians/catholics have had their own past of killing people for disagreeing with them

[Centered]

13. yes I agree

but the current fear is that all Muslims are "extremists" and Bloodthirsty. Sadly the majority of the Muslim community doesn't do enough to correct the misunderstanding. (for whatever reasons)

If there were no reports of Muslims blowing things up or killing people in New Jersey for speaking out against their religion I am sure you would find alot more humor or open disagreement or even criticism toward that religion.

I stand by my comment though - people have a fear because they assume some big bad muslim is going to kill them if they don't use the "kid gloves" Religion itself is a wonderful thing. Believe in God or Mother Earth or whatever. It's when someone stands up to lead a faith that I have to stand back and think why would they want all that attention. Even more so if they start asking for my money.


*edit spelling... I'm tired

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. One reason you don't hear good things about Muslims

is that that isn't news. Surely you don't think that the MSM is fair and balanced in their portrayal of Islam when we all know here how "fair and balanced" they are about Democrats. Al Gore's speech on Jan 16 wasn't even covered on PBS's "The News Hour" and I'm sure that many people weren't even aware it happened. There have been hundreds of Muslims and Islamic leaders in this country who have spoken out against violence, who have set up ecumenical meetings, etc, and I bet you didn't even know they happened! Might interest you to know that at an ecumenical meeting in Dallas this last July, all participants were guarded because of threats-from fundamentalist Christians. I know because one of the Sufi spiritual teachers was there and I spoke with her right after the event. The meeting was posted on the internet (I think I posted about it here, in fact), but the newspapers and local TV played it down. I am sure there are other incidents like this where statements have been made, meetings arranged, that the general public doesn't know a thing about because the news media doesn't want them to know.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. agreed

no one should say "I'm offended by this cartoon but it is jolly good to offend those of another faith." That, in my mind, is hypocritical and against the teachings found in all religions, which is the Golden Rule.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Oh good grief!

The only thing that I find terribly discouraging about this post and others on this thread is the common notion that because some imam issues a fatwa, all Muslims blindly follow it! Let me explain some things about Islam that I guess some folks don't realize.

1. There is no "pope" or "supreme ruler" who decides what Muslims should/ should not do.
2. The people who issue these fatwas are, by and large, religious scholars and local leaders of certain groups, but in no way do they EVER represent all Muslims!
3. I find it very interesting that only the fatwas that talk of violence are ever widely discussed, and that fatwas and declarations of HUNDREDS of imams and scholars condemning violence are virtually ignored.
4. In Islam, each individual is responsible for his own actions and his own salvation, without a priest or anyone intervening. A religious leader or scholar may recommend something, but there is no rule or command that says all Muslims must follow this!

5. I personally don't know a Muslim who is bent on violence or believes in these fatwas. But this only makes sense, as I'm a native born Americans, and the Muslims I know all live in this country. They and I are not bound by what someone in another country says.

6. Finally, Islam, like the other Abrahamic religions, is not unified. There are different sects. To think that all Muslims are violent is like saying that Quakers agree with Pat Robertson that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated, because all Christians agree with Pat and his "Patwas".

One last thing-when I am among Muslims, I have found that everyone is treated with kindness and respect. I have always felt at home when I am among my Muslim brothers and sisters, even if we disagree, because I have always been treated as family. I think it is sad that so many of you have not had the chance to have this experience and don't even realize that kindness and respect are hallmarks of how many Muslims in America treat people.

[Centered]

20. excellent post

It is absolutely refreshing to see a well written rebuttal.

I believe the common notion is just that... a common notion. As you so eloquently put it in another post people don't see when Muslim leaders stand up. But I also believe though that there isn't enough standing up.

My comments aren't solely for Muslims either. They are simply the focus of this thread.

hehe no matter how many times I hear it I get a chuckle out of "Patwas" What a great example that there are extreme views in ALL religions. But even so there was a massive public and substantual Christian outcry demouncing good ol Pat's comments. Which I didn't notice for Mr. Rushdie or for the destruction of the Buddah's in Afganistan.

I would agree that all Muslims don't blindly follow anyones fatwa. But what I am saying is I want to see a healthy percentage of the 1 Billion muslims stand up and say Shame on you for saying that not just a few thousand around the world but a few Hundred Thousand. I personally don't care if someone is responcible for their own faith if that means they can't be rebuked for their comments when they are representing the religion. If some nutjob can say someone is disrespecting Islam and order an execution then I would expect the rest of the Muslims to say STFU and point out that they are misrepresenting the religion.

People should treat each other with kindness and respect no matter what. I am personally glad that you have found your faith and you are happy. That is something that is truely good.

I am still searching for mine. Sadly there are no pure religions left... not even Islam.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Look to your heart for your faith

because, in the end, that is where you will find it. It is likely it won't have a name, and won't follow any creed except that of your own being. And that is good.

Had to say that first, for I felt it most important! :)

Just wanted to share a link to a DU thread you probably didn't see, as it is in the Muslim/Islamic group, and the threads aren't posted in the main room. This might tell you a bit about some Muslim response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=359x47

[anitar1]

47. I have been fortunate to experience this respect

and kindness from Muslims I know. They are very nice people and totally family oriented.They invite me to their homes and treat me with great respect.They are simply good people trying to have a life. I know it must be hard for the older ones who miss their birth country and family members who are far away.We do not discuss religion as there is no need to discuss it.

[hippywife]

80. Thank you so much, Ayeshahaqqiqa!

For maintaining such a gracious face in the midst of all the ignorance being shown by some people about Mohammed and Islam.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that everyone is treated with kindness and respect. As a Christian in support of the peace movement and interfaith community, I have had the opportunity to interact with some of the Muslims of my community and have been so warmly welcomed into their presence and share dinner. A more kind and openly welcoming people I have yet to meet.

[krkaufman]

22. Oh, the irony.

Thanks to the poster of the link to the toons, also providing this insight to the intent of the publication of the cartoons...

Why did Jyllands-Posten publish the cartoons? The Copenhagen Post explains: “Jyllands-Posten called for and printed the cartoons by various Danish illustrators, after reports that artists were refusing to illustrate works about Islam, out of fear of fundamendalist retribution. The newspaper said it printed the cartoons as a test of whether Muslim fundamentalists had begun affecting the freedom of expression in Denmark.”

[IndianaGreen]

32. How Christians would feel at someone accusing Jesus of being a pedophile?

In 2002 Jerry Falwell referred to the Prophet Mohammed, PBUHN, as a "terrorist" and he defended the characterization of the Prophet as a “demon-possessed pedophile” by a Florida fundamentalist pastor.

In his 1976 film "The Message," on the life of Mohammed, Anthony Quinn plays a follower of the Prophet. Mohammed's face or figure is never shown out of respect for Islam's prohibition to depictions of the Prophet.

Add to this controversy the belief many millions of Muslims that they are being targeted by the greedy West for their oil and their faith, and voila, you find yourself throwing fuel to a fire.

[saigon68]

35. democracy comes full circle check this out

"The world is now rid of one of the world's most heinous terrorists," Israel Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Sofer said. Reacting to Yasser Arafat's contention that Israel has killed "a moderate", Sofer said calling Yassin a moderate would be like calling Osama Bin Laden "an al-Qaida moderate."

"He was not a spiritual leader. This term does injustice to the term 'spiritual leader' and an insult to real spiritual leaders. Yassin was a terrorist mastermind," Sofer added.


ALSO


Statement by the Israel Defense Forces


Ahmed Yassin preached for the total destruction of Israel.
He was directly responsible for expanding and exporting the activities of Jihad (holy war) with the implementation and glorification of terror suicide bombings claiming hundreds of Israeli, American, British, Spanish, Iraqi and Palestinian lives. The "old, crippled man in the wheelchair" was the epidomity of evil.

[IndianaGreen]

39. I saw Bell's cartoon in The Guardian yesterday

I am generally opposed to targeted assassinations because they turn criminals into martyrs. Yassin should have been arrested and tried in a court of law.

[KDLarsen]

37. Jyllands-Posten never published such a cartoon..

.. the cartoon that depicted Mohammed as a pedophile was only a part of the propaganda used by a radical islamic group, in their (so far) succesfull attempt to make the countries in the Middle East step into this case.

[norml]

40. I'd think someone accusing Jesus of being a pedophile was just dumb.

As to how "Christians" would feel I suppose it would depend on how they feel about blasphemy in general.

I support the right to commit blasphemy.

I'm glad that our society mostly supports that right.

[KDLarsen]

36. This has really been pissing me off lately..

First of all, it took 3 weeks from the cartoons were posted until the Muslim Ambassadors contacted the Danish Prime Minister. What gives? Did they have to talk to one another before deciding that it was such a bad thing?
Second, a group of Muslims, claiming to represent all Danish Muslims (which they didn't - by far) have travelled to the Middle East in order to make the Muslim countries there put pressure on the Danish PM. With them they brought cartoons that were worse than those actually posted (some portraying Mohammad as a pedophile, another showing him having sex with a pig etc.), which they then proceeded to claim had also been posted in the newspaper.

The thing is - it IS an attack of the freedom of speech in Denmark. The Danish PM have repeatedly stated that he won't get involved with it, since this case is better resolved in the legal system - not by the Government telling a newspaper what they can & what they can't print.

I'm surprised that the article doesn't mention the boycut of Danish products in the Gulf states, since that has been a bigger concern to Danish companies. Denmarks largest dairy product producer, Arla, is currently losing 10 million DKK (around $2 million) every day because of it, and they have joined up with other companies that does business in the area, in calling for the Danish government to do something.

Sorry if this post seems a bit 'broken', but I'm having a hard time expressing myself on this matter.

Also, for those people calling Danish people a group of racists etc., I think it's a shame to have such a prejudice. While there certainly are groups of people in Denmark who act that way, I'm willing to say that 99.998% of Danes don't have a problem with emigrants & their descendants being in this country.

[genie_weenie]

63. IMHO

the call of racism is just an exceptionally effective way of shouting someone down. If you and I have a debate and I call you a racist, then the remainder of your argument will have to center on you denying my charge. I forget what category this logical fallacy falls under...

Of course, the funniest thing is Arab Muslims have been and are very racist, they don't consider Berber Muslims, or Persians their equal, even though Islam was supposed to be this great effort at bringing all men together under one belief, Arabs of course said sure we're all equal, just some animals are more equal than others.

[SKKY]

42. Be honest, most of you laughed right along with me, didn't you???

...I mean come on people, that "Stop! Stop! We ran out of virgins." was pretty damn funny.

[Maeve]

66. Not really,but the one I thought was most accurate says"PR stunt"

And a stunt that garnered more publicity than intended...

For anyone who finds the link doesn't work, try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

[Karenina]

71. Yes, THAT cartoonist is the only one

who GOT IT. Do the drawing, make THE salient point, take the money and run.

[KDLarsen]

49. In other news..

.. the organisation that sent representatives to the Middle East, in order to persuade the governments there to step into this case, have been having a hard time in showing their support in Denmark. While they claim to represent 200.000 Danish Muslims, a Danish newspaper that went through their list have only been able to find some 15.000 - and some of those claim they have never stated any support for the organisation.

And in Syria, an anonymous representative of the Syrian State Department have stated the "criminals" of Jyllands-Posten must be punished for their insult against Islam.

[Stockholm]

54. Kick

n/t

[Spinoza]

55. Good for the Danes.

No religious figure should be exempt from ridicule, including the Prophet.

[Left Below]

64. With the "Spinoza" namesake and that comment--

you are SO right!

I barely have 40 posts (half in defense of Western pro-feminist values) and I have been attacked by defenders of the Caliphate....

Please tell me this place is sane!

[fakeshemp]

65. lol

I've already taken some flak from that group as well; fortunately pseudo-progressives who choose to ally themselves with religious fundamentalists against free expression are easily (and best) ignored, I find.

[Spinoza]

74. Some so-called

"progressives" appear quite tolerant of intolerance. However, much of the response in DU to the Danish cartoons and resulting rioting and outrageous threats by many muslims is actually quite encouraging. Despite the obvious discomfort over direct criticism of a non-Western culture many people are drawing a line at the sickening and barbaric scenes of open violence, and demands for censorship, in response to a few cartoons. You may need to develop a thick skin, but hang in there. I am.

[CJCRANE]

69. Look at the precedent -

the defamation of Jews and Jewish figures in the 30's.

If that's not to be encouraged, why is the defamation of muslims any different?

[Spinoza]

76. Who said anything about 'encouraging'

the defamation of anyone? The issue is the outrageous and barbaric violent response to the cartoons.
And comparing the Danish cartoons to Nazi depictions of Jews in the 30s is ridiculous in the extreme. Are you saying noone should publicly make fun of, and ridicule Jihadist suicide bombers and their lunatic beliefs?

[KDLarsen]

59. Just breaking..

.. the newspaper that brought the drawings at first, have just issued an apology if people feelings were hurt.

[genie_weenie]

62. What is the reason

the images of Muhammad should not been drawn/shown?

Because it is boorish? perhaps
Because there is no god but god and Muhammad is his prophet? maybe
Because if you do it, a muslim will kill you? Bingo

No person, living, dead is exempt from ridicule. Period.

Always remember to 4.5 BILLION people Muhammad didn't receive jackshit from the Angel Gabriel. He was just a wacky desert nomad who raided caravans, invaded Mecca, and married a 9 year old...

[madmark]

67. iraqis worrying about danish cartoons makes about as much sense

as american's rural poor worrying about fags getting married.

[enigma000]

78. You think Iraqis would have other things to protest about n/t