Pregnant mom of 14 arrested; 3 kids found in abandoned house

[Redstone]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/children.beaten.ap/index.html

MILWAUKEE, Wisconsin (AP) -- A pregnant woman has been taken into custody after three of her 14 children, showing signs of abuse, were found taking refuge in an abandoned house, police said Friday.

Two 9-year-old twin boys and a 6-year-old boy were found Thursday night with scars and bruising to their backs and faces, she said. The abandoned house did not have heat, water or electricity, and the floor was littered with feces and garbage, Schwartz said.

Schwartz said the woman, 35, is pregnant and has 14 children, ages 3 to 20.
------------------------------------------------

Forced sterilization, anyone? This woman should not be allowed to breed.

Redstone

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. Usually I am against even the suggestion....

but I may change my stance after hearing about this. :mad:

[Redstone]

3. Follow the link and read the rest of the story, and you'll change

your mind, guaranteed. Utterly revolting.

Redstone

[tatertop]

11. I read the article and now I do agree

This woman needs to be fixed.

[jwirr]

54. What guidelines would you all use for forced sterilization?

Remember this country once practiced this idea and many innocent families were victimized - including my own. Read "War Against the Weak" by Black. This woman should be penalized for her actions and her children should be taken away. And yes I hope she can be convinced to agree to sterilization. But given the history of my family I am very afraid of that type of law.

[oblivious]

156. (1) low income (2) low intelligence (3) minority (4) female

Not my criteria. The throwback's.

[Kali]

2. surprised she even still can after 14 - JEEBUS!

[KoKo]

4. Forced Sterilization? How about better human services that this was

going on and no one helped this woman or her children...

Shocking to see that here on a Dem site even even if the comment was meant cynically.

[Redstone]

6. How do you know she wasn't offered the services and refused?

I'll bet that's what happened. We've seen this before.

I stand by my contention: People like her should not be allowed to breed.

Redstone

[KoKo]

9. Because several of the older children had been removed from her

already. Your comment is disgusting.

[Redstone]

14. So that says that social services DID try to help her.

And how did she respond? By breeding more kids, apparently for the express purpose of abusing them...sure seems like she enjoyed it, since she did it so much.

Nobody should be allowed to do that. Sorry, but saving kids from abuse is more important than that monster's "reproductive rights."

The children come first. Period.

Redstone

[oblivious]

83. Could you just lay off the hyperbole?

The issue is complex, we know next to nothing about this particular situation, yet you feel you know enough to call for sterilization and assume that she has kids "for the express purpose of beating them".

A neighbor said she'd never seen anything suspicious at the house.

"There's kids playing out here all the time, nothing out of the ordinary over there," said Beverly Akins, a child care provider who lives across the street.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/13727799.htm

[Gormy Cuss]

39. Pardon me, but there's no evidence of ongoing human services oversight

in either the CNN snip nor the local paper link in another post. What is mentioned is that her six oldest children had been removed -- no timeline on how long ago. She had eight kids living with her. I think it is plausible that the oldest six were removed long ago and she has flown under the radar ever since. I don't have a vivid imagination here -- I knew a couple that did just that. Three kids removed permanently, and they just moved to another part of town and started having more. In the years they lived there, no one saw a social worker visit them.

I've also dealt with the garbage pile of baggage carried by foster children who were raised for too many years in the household of an unstabilized mentally ill mother. I would never suggest forced sterilization but she has had her chances to be a good mother -- it's time to give her children a fair shake.

[Redstone]

40. So we rescue the kids she has now...what's to prevent her from having

more so she can abuse them as well?

Nothing.

Redstone

[Gormy Cuss]

45. Nothing, unless the courts can judge her worthy of institutionalization.

Which, of course, is unlikely to happen.
Sorry, having known a woman who was forcibly sterilized for what was considered a morally sound reason at that time, I don't ever want to give the state the right to do it again.

[jwirr]

58. Thank you.

[jwirr]

55. Jail time might force her to make a voluntary decision.

[KoKo]

80. Jail Time? Are you "smoking?" You think this "Family Situation can be

RESOLVED with "Jail Time?" CNN only gave a little "snip" of the story about this woman and her kids. Most of us DU'ers know by now NOT to TRUST our MEDIA...so how do you know the "truth" of this article.

Is the article "Biased" for the Prosecution of this woman ...or the Defense?

How do we know the truth of any of this...just because "Media Whore" CNN put it out there?

Maybe she's Mentally Ill and couldn't afford her meds? Maybe the Human Resources folks are understaffed (given Bush's CUTS) or Maybe she's just a "life looser" who is "loose with her morals" like the men of Bush's Administration...but just didn't have a "SUGAR DADDY" strong and powerful enough to cover up what was going on? :shrug:

Whatever her situation ...we don't KNOW THE TRUTH OF IT..from that small CLIP in the Milwaukee Online Newspaper.

Mayber witholding our judgement on this case might make some sense before we trash her...and call for her "STERILIZTION!"

:shrug:

[anitar1]

122. I think this "poor" woman should be allowed to live her lfe

as she chooses. After all she is only 35 yrs old and could breed many more children. This is obviously her privilege and choice. Who cares what happens to the kids. Let her breed as she chooses. It is her god given right, ok? The state will take care of all of them, right? And if the state doesn't the Feds will, right? So why should we be concerned about this.

[demosincebirth]

100. Jail her untill meno pause

[jwirr]

56. Jail time might force her to make a voluntary decision.

[nonconformist]

10. No one helped her? The article says nothing of the sort.

In fact, it says that the 6 oldest children were previously removed from her custody.

Some people are just abusive assholes, and that's nobody's fault but their own.

[KoKo]

18. My point was that "human services" KNEW there was a big problem and

should have been watching what was going on there. Remember all the Florida cases where known abusers of children had some children taken out of the home but the cases weren't followed up on after that?

We don't know the whole deal of this story. It's hype right now. She may be mentally ill...can't afford her meds or whatever.

[MsMagnificent]

152. Removing children is not helping HER

Certainly the children, but nowhere do I see what help has been offered this woman whether refused or no -- that is just conjecture based upon bias.

I find it difficult to believe that any person with an income (welfare or other) would choose not to rent a habitable domicile but be forced to squat in an abandoned building -- which btw has no heat nor WATER, hence no toilet facilities.

If this woman COULD have taken care of her children and didn't, then the answer is simple: Terminate her parental rights, with these children and any other she should happen to have.

What I'd like to know is, if they've taken away 6 children already how come they didn't follow through and keep checking on the ones she has in custody?

In any event, we can cluck away with our own moralistic view but our idea of how people should act doesn't and won't change how THIS woman acts -- so she needs to be supervised constantly; something which obviously was not done.

[Chewy_dKos]

12. Koko......

Ever heard of taking SOME responsibilty for your own doing and not blaming EVERYONE else. I am as much of a Dem as the rest of you,...but damn...I agree with Redstone

[KoKo]

16. Assume you are for the death penalty, too. And against abortion?

Forced sterilization of females was one of the most heinous acts in American History. Some males were also sterilized I believe. It's a philosophy of blaming the person rather than helping them early on or having support in place where what was happening to these kids could be identified.

No one knows what her history is. But, CNN is using it as another Hype against women. Remember the Mentally ill woman who drowned her kids and they first tried to whip it up so that she would be villified...until it was found she had no idea what she was doing. It's the mentally ill and sick people who need help that we forget about. But, the media whips stuff up without giving the background.

I thought we'd gotten beyond that. Forced Sterilization...that's just so dreadful to hear in this time. I think Bush has unleashed the hounds of hell or maybe the Middle Ages redux on us.

[Chewy_dKos]

21. actually...

...I am for the death penalty, and think abortions should be a VERY limited thing (no using it over and over again for the hell of it because you couldn't take personal responsibility to use some method of birth control). It is not a failsafe just to get rid of something you do not want. I'm tired of the way people never take responsibility for their actions anymore, there is ALWAYS someone else to blame it on, and always a lawyer ready to jump in and help

[KoKo]

23. Welcome to DU! Where you will see

that many here believe folks need a "helping hand," at some points in their life.

[Chewy_dKos]

31. you are twisting my words...

Im not saying people do not sometimes need a helping hand. I am all for that. It's just sometimes you need a little bit of personal responsibility too.

[KoKo]

76. We don't know what this woman's life story is ...or the FATHERS of her

Children. Don't THEY bear some responsibility too? If their kids were being abused for years ..(given that this woman had 14 Children) wouldn't
"some" of the FATHERS be involved here...with this terrible abuse?

:shrug:

I can't see "Sterilizing Women" when it takes TWO to make Children....

[Beaverhausen]

36. Where are the fathers of these children?

How about their responsibility? I don't think she got pregnant alone.

[Redstone]

41. Damn good point. I'd like to know as well.

Redstone

[Bobbieo]

47. Where are the fathers of her 14 kids?

Probably spread all over Wisconsin and I doubt of she could identify them. She sure sounds like a "druggie" - meth. It fits the pattern.

[Yupster]

112. The poor husband is probably working

20 hours a day to support 14 kids.

[LisaL]

114. LOL. I am pretty sure the poor husband does not exist.

[genieroze]

38. The repukes want to ban birth control too. That just say no crap.

[jwirr]

61. You say you do not want people to just get rid of something

they do not want. That is exactly what was going on when this country has a forced sterilization program in the 1890s to the 1920s. They were getting rid of the "unfits" by sterilizing mental ill, mentally deficient, alcoholics, the poor and minorities AND members of their families.

[Redstone]

28. I don't see any words about the kids in your post. Why not?

They are my concern.

Society has a duty to protect children, because they can't protect themselves. And if that means that someone who apparently bears kids just so she can abuse them, or maybe is so crazy that she doesn't know the difference, society has a duty to make sure she doesn't beat up anymore kids.

By whatever means necessary.

She has no right to abuse children. Given that she's shown a track record of abusing her children, that negates any right she may have to breed more, because it's a certainty that she will abuse any more kids she bears.

Redstone

[Pastiche423]

34. Forced Sterilization is not dreadful

when one breeds to abuse.

Child abuse stays w/one for the rest on their lives.

[LisaL]

117. Forced? Maybe she would be happy to undergo the procedure.

Considering she doesn't even like the kids, judging by the way she treats them, WTF should she want more?

[Teaser]

19. Don't want this woman helped

want her in jail.

[progressivebydesign]

74. Helping the woman? Evil does not need help. The kids did. n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. You'll see more of this if abortion is outlawed,

I fear. There is nothing sadder than an unwanted, abused child. Where were the "right to life" people to help this woman?

[Redstone]

8. You got that 100% right.

So...any "right to lifers" stepping up even NOW to to take one or two of those kids into their houses?

Anyone?

Awfully quiet out there...


Redstone

[Bobbieo]

50. Stepping in to take the children

Redstone - Have a good friend who is doing just that with her grandchildren. She has taken custody of four of them. A fifth child was a victim of "shaken baby syndrome." The father of that one is in prison. The daughter, a tweaker, has no idea who the father of her youngest child is.

Yes,I agree with forced sterilization under these circumstances.

[Redstone]

57. Hey, Bobbieo, how are you feeling? Any new doctors with

any better options for you?

Redstone

[bleedingheart]

7. Where are all the pro-lifers? Why aren't they helping these women out?

There are thousands of neglected children and yet the pro-life crowd doesn't give a shit.

[stlsaxman]

125. Randi is Righ- er, uh- Correct!

She always says- They (right to lifer's) love the fetus and hate the child.

This madness just amplifies her point.

An alternative to forced sterilization would be amputate her arms, legs and tongue. She would be as helpless as a baby for the rest of her life. She wouldn't be able to physically or emotionally abuse another single child in THAT condition.

[bluestateguy]

13. I would oppose forced sterilizations

But maybe we need to look at free spaying or neutering services for men AND women.

[Gemini Cat]

15. Now that's something I can stand with.

Forced sterilization is wrong, however, allowing people (like this woman appears to be) to continue breeding is equally wrong.

[rodeodance]

17. I hope she has some caring professionals to help her and her family.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

24. Obviously not...

or they would have stepped in about 8 kids ago. :(

[bigjohn16]

20. we breed uncontrollably drain our host and give nothing back to it

if you looked up the definition of a virus it should say, see human race.

[jwirr]

67. Great 1890s-1920s propaganda. They thought only the

fitest should survive and that meant Germainic/Norse/English races only. And even then they had to be rich/educated/productive.

[bigjohn16]

68. We are destroying the planet now...

... do you think more people are going to make that situation better? I never talked about killing anyone I was talking about population control and taking care of our planet but I guess it was just easier to call me a racist elitist.

[jwirr]

69. Didn't say anything about racism. I was telling you that

your statement is exactly the ideals being pushed in the eugenics movement that began in England about 1890, immigrated to the United States in the same period and continued until the NEW DEAL and ultimately ending in Hitler's Final Solution in Germany.

Population control can be encouraged in other ways without allowing the state to have total control of anyone identified as "unfit". Read "War Against the Weak" by Black. It is one of the best documented books of this movement that I have ever read. What criteria would you use to decide on using force? What is the difference between controlling a woman's body re: abortion and deciding men and women can be forced by the state to be sterilized?

[bigjohn16]

73. Show me where in my post I said anything about eugenics...

... or the state taking control of people identified as "unfit." Where did I say anything about sterilization or taking control of womens bodies? Damn thats a lot of words for you to put into my mouth. I went from a racist to a Nazi in favor of the final solution. Where did I say anything about choosing one class, race, or type of people and wiping them out?

I don't have a clue as to how to implement population control but that doesn't mean its not needed. I think a good place to start would be better sex ed in public schools. I also think an open dialog is a good thing but to say that anyone in favor of population control is for eugenics or the final solution is beyond absurd.

[FlaGranny]

135. Some folks sure can put words in your

mouth, can't they? I agree with you that methods must be found to reduce population growth. Perhaps people should be paid for NOT having children and not receive tax breaks for kids, after the second.

Anyhow, the sad fact is that mother earth has ways of dealing with overpopulation, which can be seen clearly in the animal world. All species flourish when there is an abundance of food, to the point where the food supply is dsetroyed or diminished. At that point, the species that depended on that food gets decimated as well. It would be best if we humans didn't allow that to happen to us.

[Triana]

140. what FlaGranny said, exactly...

...and I agree with bigjohn on this one. NO ONE mentioned eugenics. It's funny that as soon as anyone mentions population control - the word Eugenics immediately pops up. NO they are NOT one and the same and needen't be.

We can educate people NOT to have children. NOT force them, but advocacy for childlessness or having fewer kids and incentives to NOT breed would be good. NOT having kids should be advocated as a societally acceptable choice - but it is NOT. Birth control should be encouraged and readily available and incentives to use it given.

Compare and contrast that bit of common sense with the current regime's assinine 'breed-like-Hell-outlaw-birth-control' policies. HA!

And educating and promoting population control in these ways is not eugenics - it's common sense. FlaGranny is right, mother nature WILL take care of the problem herself - 'cause humans are too stupid to prevent it themselves in much nicer ways.

Thanks bigjohn and FlaGranny.

[Triana]

138. parasites (n/t)

[Justitia]

22. a preview of Post-Alito America, & the new Extreme Court -eom

[Redstone]

26. A damn good point. We should be very afraid. Especially women.

Redstone

[OKNancy]

25. a little more info from a local paper

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jan06/388074.asp

[bleedingheart]

27. it is worse than the CNN article ...

they ran from their well-kept house to the abandoned house in order to flee the beatings she was giving them....

[Redstone]

29. Rips your heart right out to read that, doesn't it? Those poor kids.

To hell with any notion of that woman having a "right" to have more kids, just so she can beat them.

She's a monster.

Redstone

[bleedingheart]

30. it is awful...what person would realistically be able to handle 14 kids?

My aunt had 7 and the oldest kids ended up raising the youngest kids and my aunt did a good job...but even she was overwhelmed to the point that none of her kids got enough attention.

One of my neighbors has 5 and they can't handle it...it is really sad...they are the talk of the neighborhood and not for a good reason.

[Gormy Cuss]

43. It can be done, it always involves older kids assisting, it's always hard.

That's part of the reason why when birth control became more accessible and many faiths didn't object, most people chose to have fewer children. It's just better all around for most families.

Large families can be far more disciplined and focused than some smaller families. It requires mature parents with determination and sufficient resources to keep them clothed, fed, and sheltered. In earlier generations there were many largish families (5 to 8 kids) that did just fine. There were even very large families that survived and produces responsible, stable adults.

There are some families these days with two or three kids who are out of control, lacking in good parental care, and headed for a hard road later in life because they're so ill-mannered, self-centered, and generally unprepared for the adult world.

Family size is less important than parental skill and involvement and providing the children with a nurturing and supportive environment.

[Yupster]

113. Used to be done all the time though

100-150 years ago 14 kids was not all that shocking.

Like someone above said, the oldest girls ended up raising the youngest ones and the girls were happy to get married young just to get out of there.

[anitar1]

123. According to the latest news, This mother is a paragon of virtue.

Excuse me while I barf. Has this oersin ever had a mental evaluation? I think not. And it says a lot about our fractured system. I can only feel sad for these children.

[knitter4democracy]

130. Hmm.

It sounds like a similar story we often have around here. Mother with children has to work ungodly hours just to pay the bills and make ends meet, but the kids end up running wild when she's at work because she can't afford day care. With the hours she's working, there's no way she could afford day care.

It's a sad thing for everyone. Even if she's found innocent, her relationship with her children is forever altered. If she's found guilty, she's lost those kids forever.

[medeak]

32. I'd take odds she was a meth user

two cases in my tiny town of beating children to death...meth addicts both.

[redqueen]

33. I'm all for forced sterilization.

Jesus Christ...

:cry:

[Beaverhausen]

35. "6 older children were removed earlier" When? How long ago?

Obviously no one was paying attention to this woman. This is sad that in this country we continue to cut the budget for child protective service programs.

Culture of life. BULLSHIT!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. where is the father of said children?

[Redstone]

42. Mrs R asked that too when I told her about it.

I'll be interested in hearing more as it comes out.

Though I suspect it's fathers, maybe up to 14 of them.

Redstone

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. yes but 1-14 men are equally responsible for their spawn

[Redstone]

59. They're supposed to be, aren't they?

She probably doesn't even remember who they were. Strong case of brainburn we're dealing with here.

Redstone

[anitar1]

124. Ha n/t

[bleedingheart]

49. well said...where are the dads???

granted the mother is out of control and not fit but where oh where are the fathers of these kids

[The Straight Story]

64. maybe they 'aborted' their rights early on

oh yeah, I feel the heat....

[LostinVA]

46. Hmmm... where are the father(s) of the kids?

That never seems to be asked too many times on these threads. Not excusing the woman's actions, just saying their are other people at fault here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. yes there certainly are

[Redstone]

63. It's being asked a LOT in this thread. And rightly so.

Redstone

[SoCalDem]

51. Her children should have been taken from her as infants

and given up for adoption..better for them and maybe better for her too. If she's not mentally handicapped, it would not take her long to ask for birth control if she knew she would "just be fat for 9 monts" and then get nothing out of it..no money no baby...she might have figured it all out long before the 14th child.

[zippy890]

53. she's mentally ill

I think this story has more to do with mental health services, the availability of such services, insurance issues around that.

if she is mentally ill, not receiving treatment because of insurance, stigmas, ignorance, poverty, unavailability - those are what the problems are.

a society that cares about the health & welfare of women & children would would make it easier for someone who is sick to get better. and provide her with contraception, and abortion should also be an option afforded to someone like this.

[EFerrari]

60. How do you know, zippy? I scanned this thread pretty fast. n/t

[zippy890]

127. I just know, the facts say it

I had severe postpartum depression after the birth of my son 20 years ago.

If it wasn't for the support & love of my family,

anyway, this is an extraordinarliy sad story for everyone involved, including the woman.

[EFerrari]

148. I asked because my first area of activism is family mental health.

And a lot of the time, we recognize stuff 'way before we have facts to justify our take. 9 times out of 10, subsequent reports verify what we somehow notice from the earlier reporting.

This is very sad, up to and including this woman.

[bleedingheart]

62. I didn't find anything in the stories that state she is mentally ill

and if that is the case she should have been counseled well before she had 14 children to be sterilized...

[barb162]

78. the fact she has 14 kids that she beats up implies she's nuts

She needs a shrink to check her out to make sure.

[KoKo]

84. I've missed the other "stories or articles" about this...There's only CNN

and we know they are BIASED TO THE MAX in VICTIMIZING/SENSATIONALIZING FEMALES!!!

So..in the absence of some more personal info on this woman, her circumstances and why her "older children" we taken out by "family services?" (the articles doesn't even mention who took the older kids out)...then we should "hold our fire."

She is probably Mentally Ill and either could get her meds...access to them under Bush's NEW HEALTH CARE DEPRIVATION PLAN or got caught in some crap bearocracy where she was left "undguarded."

There are MILLIONS in AMERICA who could fall through the cracks in our health care/human services and end up like this woman did.

Where we Dems miss the boat is that we NO LONGER CARE ABOUT THE "LEAST" of US...and only focus on the Health and Care of the Abramoff's and "Brownie" who allowed thousands of New Orleans and Gulf Coast residents to DIE...so he could eat a meal and get "dressed up" for a "photo op" for BUSH TEAM!

The folks who need help out here in America AREN'T GETTING THE HELP THAT WORKS FOR THEM!!!

GOT IT? :shrug: THEY AREN'T GETTING THE HELP THEY NEED!!!!

Are there EVIL folks that will NEVER Seek or Accept Help of ANY KIND? Do they Exist...is this Woman one of the EVIL? I don't know until I see more sources than CNN's HYPE or some local CNN RAG in the hinterlands of "One Newspaper Towns" who fee from CNN to really understand what the whole story on this Woman and her Family are????

:shrug: I want to wait and see...before I trash her into Hell!

[oblivious]

91. See post 70 for more reports on this.

[bleedingheart]

134. there are a lot ot blame including this woman's friends and family

I read the local articles posted as well and in my opinion it was a failure of massive proportions...

1. If she was violent and she had a history of run-ins with the law. The system failed the children by not protecting them. This could be a result of underfunding social services.
2. If she had any friends or family, why didn't they intervene to help or at least call police ahead of this.
3. The woman herself had 14 babies...my bets they were born in hospitals...but why didn't anyone notice then that she had problems???
4. As other posters mention, where are the fathers...clearly this woman has no problem finding a partner willing to procreate but where are they in this situation???

Many are to blame but the true victims are the innocent children born into this maelstrom...their mother may need help but they don't deserve to be in that situation at all.

To some degree I blame the ..."I don't want to get involved" complex we all suffer from as human beings...we watch in silence as children are neglected...we see people do all kinds of weird stuff that should probably be reported but we don't want to get involved and then something like this happens and voila...you have a problem.

I have a neighbor with a bunch of kids. They are fed, clean (kind of) and they have a house to sleep in. BUT...there appears a controlled chaos in the household and the parents are somewhat neglectful...not criminally (at least yet) but neglectful enough that the children are out on the streets as early as 7 am looking for someplace to go...(parents are sleeping and don't want to be disturbed)...I recall last year the one child had a bad wound on his arm...and it went untreated (not cleaned up and bandaged properly)...my mother and I both pondered whether we wanted to take care of it but decided against it since we were worried that the goofy parents might just be mad at us... SO...a few days pass and he is at the bus stop and this arm is infected...(now why the hell didn't the parents look at it)...so I called the school nurse and asked her to pull him out of class and have a look...She did and she put anti-bacterial cream on it after cleaning it up more...wanna know the irony...his mother works in a hospital as a lab tech...

[JVS]

95. yeah, this sounds like one of those people that gets a shitload of cats..

and can't take care of them, but in this case it's with kids.

[Lena inRI]

52. Progressive revamp of system=new incentives

Once women with numerous children are officially receiving assistance and/or charged with abuse:

1.National data base keeps ongoing watch of family to avoid "falling through the safety net."

2.With each childbirth and/or abuse report, nationally uniform counseling should be mandated to rehabilitate these mothers by including such new incentives as receiving MORE assistance for using responsible birth control, including option of voluntary sterilization if birth control routine has been impossible to maintain for whatever un-rehabilitative reason (i.e. drug addiction). The counseling guidelines would have to stress a guarantee that sterilization choice has been made without duress, with third-party neutral witnesses. Ultimately, equate no more children with more assistance ($, job training, daycare).

3.State would get the extra $ for above assistance by tracking down the biological fathers for pay/assistance deductions; DNA testing required to verify paternity. BTW, if these mothers voluntarily identify fathers to expedite search, another $ incentive could be added.

4. If mother never turns her life around, cite her with reckless neglect and mandated jail time in minimum security institution where more counseling is given. . .maximum security as usual if child abuse has been proven with due process.

So Redstone, sterilization is a solution. . .but it's all about how you get there. . .we are ultimately judged by how we treat the most hopeless among us. . .IOW, do we really love and care about our fellow beings as we are being our brother's/sister's keepers?


:grouphug:

[oblivious]

65. Should every person who beats his children be sterilized then?

I mean what exactly she should be sterilized for?
(A) for having 14 children
(B) for beating them
(C) for not looking after them properly
(D) two of the above
(E) all of the above

If (A), after how many children should the woman or man be forcibly sterilized? Or is it just the woman who should be done.

If (B) what kind of beating would rate sterilization?

If (C) what kind of criteria would be used?

Some scary people on this thread. Damn!

[superconnected]

72. I'm having a hard time telling between people who want forced

sterilization and nazis.

I'm not for ANY woman being forcibly sterilized. Lock her up if she breaks the law, but take away her reproductive rights and you are no better than any facists dictator.

I'm surprised someone on du would suggest it. Ewww.

[Redstone]

85. The kind of beating that makes the kids prefer to live in a hovel

is reason enough.

And yes, anyone who abuses a child should be imprisoned, then sterilized and returned to jail if they continue.

Kids can't fight back, you know. There is NO fucking encuse for abusing children.

What kind of beating, you ask? How about the kind of beating that would get you fucking arrestedif you did it to another adult? Yet, kids get hit like that all the time, and it's OK?

Redstone

[oblivious]

89. No one here said beating a child is okay. No one is excusing it.

So what exactly are you talking about?

I would like to know more about your criteria for forced sterilization though. Say you were on the Village Sterilization Council. How would you decide which women and men were to be sterilized?

[Redstone]

94. Men who beat their wives. No, I'd castrate them. Anyone who beats

children gets sterilized.

What the fuck do they think gives them the right to hurt little kids, who can't fight back? Can't even protect themselves?

Anyone who will hurt a child once will do it again. They should NOT be allowed to do so.

Never been beaten with a belt, have you?

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

66. Must. Not. Write. What. Thinking.

:grr:

[oblivious]

70. Here's a local video report on this as well as a longer AP report.

Video:
http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/6497030/detail.html

Longer AP report:
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/13727799.htm

[Thor_MN]

71. I don't pretend to have the solution, but am curious if when they arrested

her, they opted for ankle cuffs

[ima_sinnic]

75. yes, she has more than shown she should not be allowed to breed

again.
Why do people think sentencing her to be sterilized would "open the door" to mass sterilization? It isn't any one factor, as a poster a couple abovethread mentions. This is a whole overwhelmingly convincing set of circumstances, a nightmare scenario, and no, not everybody has the "right" to breed like a wanton rabbit. She's a monster. Either lock her up until she's past the age of breeding, or sterilize her. Society can afford no less. The "right" to breed includes RESPONSIBILITY and perhaps THAT is the litmus test. Those who can't take responsibility for their actions have to face consequences. Why the hell didn't the dumb useless bitch use birth control? (And I don't want to hear a sob story about how she couldn't "afford" it -- sheesh! so she CAN afford her spawn??) Can't believe the meth-head apologists on this thread.

[KoKo]

82. "ALLOWED to Breed!" ...that's the question...and it makes me wonder about

folks who think of FEMALES as "BROOD MARES" like we are some kind of "f**ing" BREEDING FACTORIES for folks of some "stripes" to TRASH.

Hey..."Brood Mare" ...what about "Stud Factories" ...that must sound real good to the VIAGRA CROWD!

What...too puny to "get it up" so you trash females as "BROOD MARES?"

:D AMAZING!!!!!! Battle of the SEXES?

[ima_sinnic]

128. do you have another word for her behavior?

and, yes, "allowed to breed" -- at some point somebody has to take responsibility for the larger good.

[Sgent]

77. My thoughts

have been all over the board on this...

Today, I believe in forced sterilization for anyone (male or female) found guilty of felony child abuse.

They gave up their reproductive rights when they hit/abandoned/had sex with/ their kids.

[goodboy]

79. ONLY FOURTEEN?!? That's nothin' check this out>>>>>>

Arkansas Woman Has 16 Children (Dad's name is "Jim Bob"!!no shit "Jim bob" ROFLMFAO!!!!
Couple Say They Want More

POSTED: 1:42 pm EDT October 13, 2005
UPDATED: 1:48 pm EDT October 13, 2005

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- An Arkansas woman has just delivered her 16th child, and she's already thinking about doing it again.

<>
snip-

Johannah Faith Duggar was born at 6:30 a.m. Tuesday. She weighed 7 pounds, 6.5 ounces.

The baby's father, Jim Bob Duggar, a former state representative, said Wednesday that mother Michelle Duggar and child were doing well.

snip-

The Learning Channel is doing another show about the family's construction project, a 7,000-square-foot house that should be finished before Christmas. The home, which the family has been building for two years, will have nine bathrooms, dormitory-style bedrooms for the girls and boys, a commercial kitchen, four washing machines and four dryers.

Michelle Duggar had her first child at age 21, four years after the couple married.

Their children include two sets of twins, and each child has a name beginning with the letter "J": Joshua, 17; John David, 15; Janna, 15; Jill, 14; Jessa, 12; Jinger, 11; Joseph, 10; Josiah, 9; Joy-Anna, 8; Jeremiah, 6; Jedidiah, 6; Jason, 5; James, 4; Justin, 2; and Jackson Levi, 1

http://www.nbc10.com/news/5095050/detail.html

[bigjohn16]

81. And her kids have ten kids and their kids have ten ...

... and so on and so on. Yikes!

[KoKo]

87. and...you know what? Some of those kids will be GREAT KIDS and they

will show that no matter HOW much WE trash them...their genes will allow them to do GOOD STUFF and be better than WE WERE!

Take that and stuff it. No one knows how much kids who grew up in adversity can conquer their "demons" and go onto great things. Who are you or I to judge and call for this woman's "STERILIZATION..by FORCED METHODS!!!"

:shrug:

[bigjohn16]

90. When did I call for the sterilization of anyone? nt

[Redstone]

93. Never been beaten with a belt, have you? I have. You bleed. It makes

bruises that don't go away for weeks, and sometimes they're hard to hide.

You've never had that happen to you, have you? Ever been beaten by someone three times your size? I bet you have not. And unless you have, you have no moral standing to continue trying to justify that monster's actions and turn her into some innocent victim.

The innocent victims are the kids.

I'll ask you one more time, since you didn't want to answer before: Why are you defending this monster so vigorously, but in all of your posts, there is not one single word of sympathy for those poor kids?

Kinda makes me question your motivation.

Gonna answer me this time?

Redstone

[KoKo]

96. You have a "dog in this hunt."

whatever happened to you as a kid makes you think this woman should be "sterilized, forcibly."

You don't know my background or life ...you don't know if I've experienced what you did that makes you so bitter and angry...and you think you OWN all the anger and bitterness...you assume no one else has walked your path in the world and could see things differently than you do...

You don't know...you assume and project what happened to YOU onto this woman. SHE is not your Mother...and your own demons need to be delt with...as do all our demons...that you might "assume" but know nothing about. That's what I'm saying here... and PEACE! to you...just saying..

[Redstone]

101. I appreciate the peace sentiment. What I am trying to say is this:

First, I do NOT assume that nobody else here has been beaten as a kid. What I am saying is that, unless you have experienced that, you cannot REALLY understand how it makes a kid feel.

How do you suppose those kids felt, how bad do you think it must have been for them, that they'd run away to that abandoned house rather than stay at home?

I'll ask one more time, and this time in a less-confrontational manner, because I'm genuinely interested: Why in all of your posts defending this woman, have you not said one word about the kids?

Because, notwithstanding any failure of any social service or system, this is a woman who systematically abused her children. No social service abused her children. No absent father (not that I'm excusing them) abused her children. She abused her children.

And there is no circumstance which excuses the abuse of children. No matter which society or service may or may not have provided her with whatever counseling or whatever you feel that she should have had, she beat up those kids.

And it's a 100% dead certainty that if she has more kids, she'll beat them as well. You know that as well as I do.

I am a great believer in social services and charity. I would gladly pay double the taxes I pay now, if I could be assured that the money would be used to help those less fortunate than me. I believe that it is the duty of those who have to help those who have not.

But I'll say it one more time. She abused those kids. If she has more, she'll abuse them as well.

There's no excuse for that.

I wish peace unto you as well.

Redstone

[oblivious]

110. "First, I do NOT assume that nobody else here has been beaten as a kid."

Wrong:

Here in post 93 to another poster: Never been beaten with a belt, have you?

Here in post 94 to me: Never been beaten with a belt, have you?

No one here is defending this woman. But your talk of widespread sterilization is barbaric.

[Redstone]

111. I was talking to KoKo, not you.

Redstone

[KoKo]

133. She's mentally ill...and for what ever reason

it was never picked up...What were her Own circumstances growing up? Where are the father or fathers of these children? She didn't come into this world on her own and she doesn't live her life alone...she has contact with others. Where is the responsibility of the males who impregnated her to see that their children were being treated this way? Where was their responsibility to see that she was in need of help? Why did they not remove their children from that situation? Why did they not go to court to remove the children.

Your personal experience makes you blame the parent. Your concern is what you felt as a child..the hurt the anger..the inability to explain how a parent could beat you. Getting beyond that to see the bigger picture and realize that "forced sterilization" for anyone is wrong because it's a violation of one's personal being just as you felt your personal being was being violated by these beatings. Forcing sterilization is not the answer to the pain of these children or to this woman's sickness of mind. What caused her to do this is the question. And, those kids will need lots of help in working through this. We don't have a medical system where they will get that help...that's what I was trying to talk about.

You seem to think I have no understanding of what you felt being beaten as a child. And I said to you, you don't know my life to know what personal experiences I might have had,and yet I've taken a very different view from yours about this woman. She's sick mentally. That this has gone on so long is the failure of those in contact with her to do enough.

That's what I'm saying.

[nonconformist]

142. "Your personal experience makes you blame the parent"

Come on, give me a break. The parents ARE to blame here - the mother who beats them and their absent fathers.

[goodboy]

88. "What are we going to do tonight Fundie Dad???" "Same thing we do

every night, Eleventeen Faith Jim-Bob Jesus H. Christ..."


TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!

[JVS]

97. I guess some people can handle it and some people can't

It's amazing what some money does.

[LisaL]

103. You can't possibly compare these people

who obviously care for their children (regardless how repulsive you find the idea of having so many) to the woman that doesn't take care of her kids whatsoever.
There is no comparison.

[bigjohn16]

108. They're both socially irresponsible. nt

[LisaL]

115. Oh gee. Why is that?

The couple takes care of all their kids. The woman obviously does not.

[bigjohn16]

118. Because 30,000 children a day die on this planet...

... mostly from preventable or treatable causes. If you want 15 kids adopt, don't breed just because you can it's not a talent and its socially irresponsible.

[LisaL]

119. Well, maybe we should stop breeding altogether?

While I think having so many kids is gross, to not see the difference between people who take care of their kids and this woman makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[bigjohn16]

120. That you see no similarities makes no sense to me.

I have no information on the women from the OP, so I can't comment on her reasons. I know that the second family had the resources to take care of 15 children and chose to bring 15 more people into the world instead of adopting 15 kids who are waiting for a home. I think thats the height of irresponsibility. But I doubt after all this if we'll ever agree.

[Coexist]

86. Why does CNN have an email alert for WELFARE

YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS

Welfare
or Create Your Own
Manage Alerts | What Is This?



Next to this article? Normally the alerts are for related topics - WTF???

[MsMagnificent]

153. Sounds like CNN is withholding part of the story

...like she was taken off the welfare rolls, but they're still connecting the story with welfare, rather like a Freudian slip.

[barb162]

92. What does this woman use for money to feed and clothe all those

kids. How much must it cost a month? I wonder if the fathers contribute to child support. Do the fathers see these kids. WHat in hell is going on here!

[JVS]

98. I wonder if she even knows who all the fathers are

or if the fathers even know that they've fathered kids with her

[barb162]

106. I'm speechless by the whole thing and the fact she's pregger again

She can have 10 more kids as she's only in her mid 30s. She must have a mental problem of some kind.

[LisaL]

104. It's rather obvious she doesn't.

[JVS]

99. How about a compromise on the sterilization issue where we agree...

that she should never again be allowed to have custody of children and if she wants to have her tubes tied the government will pay for it.

[Redstone]

102. That'd work for me. It'll stop her from abusing kids, and that's

all that counts.

Good solution, except for one thing: If she denies sterilization, and continues to have kids who she can't have custody of, where do those kids live? Mrs R and I would take two (we have plenty of room), but where do the others go?

Redstone

[JVS]

105. I'm not sure. The government could give people rewards for adopting...

kids, that would help place them. But even if they had to grow up in an orphanage, it would be better than living under this woman's care.

[Redstone]

109. Now, THERE's an idea. Government support for adopting kids. Yes.

I like it. Why isn't it happening? With all the money we pay in taxes, it should be done.

You run for President, I'll vote for you. I like your thinking.

Furthermore, with all that tax money that we pay, there could be orphanages that would be good places for kids to grow up.

America can afford that, and easily. Too bad the government's priorities are so hideously screwed up.

Redstone

[WhiteTara]

107. where's the man in all of this? Surely this isn't

immaculate conception? If she were on her own, she would have abortions, but some man (IMHO) has to be in the picture telling her she has to be a breeder. But you are right, she should not burden society with anymore children. No matter how wonderful they are, these are going to be some emotionally scarred human beings. I hope the children get lots of therapy and decent foster homes.

over 500,000 children enter child protective services every year, after having been treated as these children have been. The torture that children face at the hands of their caregivers is horrifying. I would bet that in many cases, you could say, these children were Abu Ghraibed. ::rant:
edited for rant.

[LisaL]

116. I imagine there could be many men involved.

And I sincerely doubt somebody is telling this woman to keep on breeding. She probably has no clue what birth control is.

[oblivious]

121. Forced sterilization is an atrocity. Its advocacy on DU is disgusting.

[RAGING Granny]

126. Racism? Anyone? Desperation anyone?

She's a symptom of her society. So, kill the symptom. Who knows what kind of background she had that started her to breeding kids when she was only 15 years old --- that was HER fault? The abominable history of how this country has treated Native Americans & Negro slaves & immigrant workers is her fault -- you don't think all of that directly influences situations like this???

This is not a simple issue and those that are advocating throwing this woman in jail and sterilizing her are not looking at the bigger picture. This is societal, cultural and moral and is HUGE. As far as the powers-that-be are concerne, she is a piece of s**t as are all of the rest of us unless we belong to the Country Club. Come on, sheeple, don't buy into this gladiator "kill her" shit that the media wants to goad you into. Betcha her background reflects what she is doing to her children.

I am but one humble small human being and don't have the answers to life's persisten questions, but I do know that just suppressing symptoms with heavy handed tactics does not solve the problem that caused them. Let's look deeper and figure out what we need to do to fix the causes, not just keep hollering to blame the victims. No one has the moral authority to be self righteous without understanding the whole picture. Even Jesus said something to the effect of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Come on, people, look at the bigger picture.

[MsMagnificent]

154. Thank you RAGING Granny!

for your sane and wise answer
& Welcome to DU! :)

[ima_sinnic]

129. so how do you propose preventing THIS woman from having any

more children?
Never mind hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing over how half the population is going to be forcefully sterilized if this woman is forced to stop reproducing -- what is your answer in this one situation? Her right to reproduce no matter how little she cares for her spawn and inflicts pain and misery on them, perpetuating her miserable cycle of violence and poverty--that right is greater than the good of society as a whole to have well-cared for, loved, mentally healthy children who will perpetuate a healthy society?

[oblivious]

146. You're asking me to make assumptions about a case I know nothing about.

Only a fool would make recommendations based on guesses. (Not that that has stopped many people in this thread though.)

May I ask what bothers you more - that fact that she has a 15th child on the way or the fact that she apparently beats them? What I really want to know is whether you would still want her sterilized if she had only 2 kids, but still beat them.

[MsMagnificent]

155. Do as Russia does

Terminate her parental rights of all existing children and all that she will have in future.

Would it be better she not have any more children at all? Absolutely!
But forced sterilization is not the answer -- for a free people, that is.

[0007]

131. What does she do in her spare time?

[LisaL]

132. Take a guess.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

136. She - she - she - words fail me.

[MellowOne]

137. And she's only 35!

The oldest is 20 so she gave birth at 15...she must have a kid every year.

[greenbriar]

139. american family values...birth them babies but

who gives a shit about them once they are born

[RandomKoolzip]

141. Forced Sterilization?! Zowie. Ya know, with all the Nazi comparisons

one sees all over DU, and all the subsequent brouhaha about it ("You can't compare Bush to Hitler because it insults the victims of the Holocaust," etc.) you'd think one would have the tact not to promote Nazi medical atrocities here.

[asthmaticeog]

143. You're absolutely right. All these people do is

breed more low-level workers who ask you too many questions when they're ringing up your purchase.

:sarcasm:

[Darth_Kitten]

144. Yeah, and neither should the fathers of said children.

It takes two to tango.

[KDLarsen]

145. Disagree..

.. For all I care, she can continue to have as many children as she wishes - I'm sure the social services can find plenty of childless couples that would care for her offspring, since she's apparently not capable of doing it herself.

[President Kerry]

149. That's taking quite a chance.

No child should be born to an obviously negligent mother. Something bad must happen to the kid before social services will take custody. Sometimes it's too late. I'm not saying she shouldn't breed, but she should be locked up - either in jail or in a mental hospital.

[KDLarsen]

151. Definantly agreed on that

She needs to go to either jail or a mental institution for the crimes she has committed - but come on, forced sterilization? Wasn't that one of the Nazi's favourite hobbies?

[dsc]

147. This woman belongs in jail or a mental hospital

for the rest of her child bearing years. I will leave it up to psychiatrists who are experts to determine which, but one or the other.

[MsMagnificent]

150. what does it say for our country

what does it say for our country, that a woman with children --so many children!-- is forced to squat in an abandoned home with no other place to go?

And where was child welfare PRIOR to this discovery??
Can you just imagine the country when they repeal Roe vs. Wade?
This will be an everyday occurance.


America, the New 3rd world country (But have a tax break if you're rich!) --Bush's new slogan.

[maddezmom]

157. locking

No longer breaking news, thread has ceased to be a productive discussion