U.S. Jewish leaders consider financially assisting fired AIPAC officials

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"U.S. Jewish leaders are considering providing financial support to Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, two former American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) employees on trial for their entanglement in a high-profile affair involving the possession and transfer of classified information.

Former Pentagon official Larry Franklin was sentenced 10 days ago to 12 years in prison for providing classified information to AIPAC - via Rosen and Weissman - and to Israel via an Israeli Embassy employee in Washington.

As a result of increasing concern over the possible outcome of Rosen and Weissman's trial, a number of U.S. Jewish leaders consulted via telephone this past week to formulate a response to the trial of the former AIPAC employees."

<snip>

"Three possible courses of action were decided upon by three different U.S. Jewish leaders. (All those involved ask their names be kept confidential). The three decided to either: Give additional financial support to the defendants (certain sums are also now coming to the defendants from a known donor); to divert AIPAC to a channel less alienated from the two; and to publicly condemn the prosecution."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/676174.html

[DiverDave]

1. So, they will get money

that was provided by us...yep, sounds about right.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. AIPAC is not funded by "us" e/m

[Tom Joad]

2. These crimes were against every American, and ultimately against

peace. The objective was to foment US war against Iran. This may mean thousands dead, it may mean millions dead.

AIPAC, a real slimy outfit, that. Masters of War. They are not the only ones, but they certainly part of that crime.

[Fredda Weinberg]

4. The objective was info about Hamas

and preventing future suicide attacks. No US secrets were compromised.

[entanglement]

7. Look up the word 'treason' in the dictionary

and don't attempt to defend the indefensible

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. Here ... I'll help you

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

As I noted, the AIPAC officials weren't seeking information to damage the United States and they weren't the ones trusted with confidential information.

So yes, I'll defend the defensible.

[Ian David]

11. Because America has been such a reliable and forthcoming intelligence ally

Relying upon the Bush administration to provide accurate information to prevent terrorism is like relying upon them to provide... uhm... accurate information about the likely results of a hurricane hitting New Orleans.

"We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here," looks a whole lot better if there's actually fighting going on over there.

IT IS IN BUSH'S BEST INTEREST TO ALLOW OTHER COUNTRIES TO BE SUBJECT TO TERROR ATTACKS WHENEVER POSSIBLE!

Every time a bomb goes off in a London subway or a Spanish train or at a Lebanese embassy or when someone shoots missiles at an Israeli passenger jet or anyplace except America, it consolidates Bush's base because "he's keeping us safe HERE!"

I wouldn't blame any country for doing anything short of implanting a microwave transmitter inside Bush's ass, because there is no way in hell this administration will share accurate intel with their allies especially if it is contradictory to the message they are putting out.

So, as much as I disagree with AIPAC as one of the sleazier and more extremist of the Israel groups, walking the line between legitimate Zionism and militant Kahanism, I say I don't blame them for spying on Bush.

They didn't spy on us.

They spied on Bush because they know he cannot be trusted.

[Zhade]

30. They still must be held accountable for their crimes.

NT!

[The Stranger]

76. That is an amazing perversion of the facts.

Bush and the Neocons are trying to force the U.S. into unnecessary and illegal wars based on propaganda and endless weapons of mass destruction lies, and they constitute the greatest danger to the U.S. and to the world.

But you cannot claim that Bush and the neocons are somehow working against each other -- they are one and the same. They weren't spying on Bush, they were trying to infiltrate and undermine the U.S. intelligence apparatus.

(Do you still have me on "ignore"? Guess we'll find out).

[entanglement]

17. I wonder if you would have been half as willing to

play apologist for these guys had they been of Arabic or Chinese origin? And this is the real world, where Israelis (Gasp! the horror!) and their agents actually spy on America, no matter what you Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd believe.

[Fredda Weinberg]

20. I'm not arguing origin - the accusation was treason

If the Arabs in question were trying to get info on the suicide bombers who attacked in Lebanon or Jordan - I wouldn't be offended ... would you?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

43. Let me spell it out for you....

if you like the idea of peace, you are backing the wrong team here.

[Fredda Weinberg]

54. I'm simply keeping the facts straight

The only backing I'm offering is for the country that was founded in the wake of a disaster that claimed nearly all of my relatives - my father was the only survivor in his extended family. After the war, the British kept refugees from Palestine, so he ended up here.

My mother's parents had more foresight - they arrived together before the war so they only lost that side of the family ... neither spent any time in concentration or labor camps.

Please don't lecture me about the idea of peace ... I know that when a nation is under stress, all minorities are vulnerable. It's no different here, no different in Israel.

But as far as the two AIPAC officials are concerned, they were fired because they acted outside their official capacity. If individuals want to support them financially, I suppose that is their right. My points are that *our* tax dollars are not involved and charges of treason are simply unfounded.

[IndianaGreen]

49. You do realize that the USA is no different from Hitler's Germany

The reality of the Bush dictatorship kind of muddles the issue of espionage. Surely we consider heroes those Germans that spied for the Allies, or conspired to kill Hitler. The same standard applies to those Americans that oppose the Bush dictatorship. As to the Israeli spies, during the days of the Republic the argument could have been made that they were traitors. Such an argument holds no weight now!

[jseankil]

59. Jesus give it a rest

U.S. is now no different from Nazi Germany?? No wonder so many people are frighten away from the left, insane statements like this one drives them away.

[IndianaGreen]

64. And you are in as much denial as the Germans were in 1933-34

Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.

[jseankil]

72. delete

delete

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

74. exactly. These guys put israel ahead of the US. They are traitors, pure &

simple.
AIPAC is itself a criminal organization. disinformation from Israel led us, in part, to invade Iraq. It clearly is trying to make us move against Iran.

[gonzo8]

15. WRONG!!

The information was about U.S. policy towards Iran, not Hamas.

[Fredda Weinberg]

24. Correction: al Qaeda, not Hamas

Rosen and Weissman disclosed sensitive information as far back as 1999 on a variety of topics that included terrorist activities in Central Asia, the bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda and U.S. policy in Iran, the indictment said. Among their contacts were foreign government officials and reporters, the indictment said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/04/national/main759248.shtml

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fredda Weinberg]

26. Israel exists for a good reason

From the misdirected anger I've seen so far in this thread, I'm happier than ever that it exists.

[MakeItSo]

28. Please, the anger is against double standards and hypocricy

"Jewish leaders?" Who elected them? They have no write to speak for the Jewish people, whoever they are. They are shamelessly and publicly raising money in the United States to support people accused of spying against the United States. This is a provocative jesture. To say otherwise ignores common sense. Do it quietly if you wish, but to expect unconditional acceptance on the part of Americans invites a double standard that just doesn't mesh with reality.

[Fredda Weinberg]

51. There was no spying *against* the US

Israel's not an enemy ... you didn't see them dancing in the streets on 9/11.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm an American too - and my acceptance is conditional on the facts as alleged by the US government.

BTW, no one speaks for the Jewish people - and we are distinctive, by history if not by choice. Secular Jews as well as observant died in Germany, so we're a bit sensitive to threats.

[MakeItSo]

55. I agree, Israel isn't the enemy of US -- but Likud is

People who speak for "the Jews" are the problem. "The Jews" are considerably more diverse in thought and opinion than those who speak for them would presume.

Most Israelis support a two state solution. The peace movement is vibrant in Israel, and politial viewpoints there are diverse, much more so than in the US.

Jews in the US overwhelmingly voted against Bush in both elections, and never supported the war any more than anyone else. Now, American Jews on average are more opposed to the war than most Americans.

But the fact of the matter is that AIPAC is closely aligned with Likud, and Likud is closely aligned with some of the primary architects of the Iraq war and the false intelligence that led up to it.

It's not that Feith, Wolfowitz, and Perle are JEWS that is the problem --- it's that they are LIKUDISTS. That's a documented fact. And the Likud, with AIPAC's assistance, worked closely with Wolfowitz and Feith -- through their "office of special plans" --- and with Perle to provide a false case for the Iraq War.

The Iraq War is a tragedy for the American people. Hence, I would argue that the Likud is the enemy of the American people. Not any more or less than the Bush administration, mind you.

Jews who fail to note the diversity of opinion among Israelis and among Jews in general -- about who they are and what they believe in -- ignore reality. They also do a disservice to the Jewish people by reinforcing a false stereotype that "the Jews" all think alike.

I speak as someone who is married to a Jewish person with Jewish children who are being raised in a Jewish household and belong to a synagague. I am in the process of conversion myself. I've been grappling with the issue of Israel for some time --- I probably would have converted long ago if not for this issue. That said, the more I learn about the Jewish people around the world, and their diversity of thought and opinion, the more I am comforted.

Israelis are like us in many respects --- they are victims of morally bankrupt leadership, but many of them still have the courage to stop the cycle of violence and fight for justice.

Truth is the friend of the Jewish people. It is an enemy of their Likud leadership, just as it is the enemy of the Bush Administration and the Republican party.

But regardless of its enemies and alliances, truth takes courage to face.

[Fredda Weinberg]

57. Likud may be wrong, but I can't agree that they're the enemy

I hear your struggle, but resigned myself a long time ago to life as an outsider: I was raised devout and became secular. I won't despise who I was ... and can see the world through Likud's perspective.

They are not the enemy of the US - in fact, their greatest fault is that they are trying too hard to emulate our society, our economic principles and our corporate-oriented government.

But in the wake of the failure of Oslo and Clinton's intervention, a substantial part of Israeli society has turned rightward and the peace movement has kept a low profile since the second Intifada.

"morally bankrupt leadership"? I think you're overlooking that for most of recent history, Israel has had a coalition government - we can argue the government's polcies in the appropriate thread, but I'm reluctant to condemn an entire democratic nation because I'm not there ... and the last time I argued with Israelis, they were adamant that they would concede even more land for peace - and felt they had been used as pawns in the cold war.

[MakeItSo]

60. As I said, no more or less so than the Bush Administration

I am NOT condeming the entire democratic nation of Israel. That's my point. Justifiable anger should be directed toward Likud, in my opinion, not Israelis at large and certainly not the Jewish people, who are on the side of justice more than most in this country.

There is a strong anti-Israeli current in the US, and this has translated into anti-semitism. I think this is due in part to the fact that Jews are reluctant in this country to speak their minds out loud. As perpetual outsiders, they wish in large part to present a "united front." This is a legacy of the longstanding, overt anti-semitism that has plagued this country until only recently.

I'm not talking about message board slanders. I'm talking about people not being allowed into restaurants, clubs and hotels because they were "Heebs," getting turned down for jobs, etc.

I am a patriot. I also am deeply critical of our government. Likewise, it is possible to be a friend of Israel and to be deeply critical of the government there. The risk of not speaking one's mind is that observers tend to assume that silence equals approval.

[Zhade]

58. Fantastic post!

Very, very good points.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

75. that's plain wrong. You believe too much pro-Israel spin.

Because of israel's interference in the American political system, we have protected that country and avoided even the slightest bit of criticism, even when Israeli troops shoot and kill school kids in cold-blooded murder. When Israeli troops stop ambulances from attending Palestinian victims of settler terrorist acts, when Israel strafes schools, hospitals, and government buildings, we remain silent.

Three years ago, Tom Delay went to the Knesset and basically said, you can do whatever you want. Our government and our god will support you always.

israel is not a friend of ours. They spy on us, (and have for decades) they treat our secrets with disdain if they can earn a profit from them, and they do everything to interfere with our political system. Any congressman or senator who dares stand up to them, gets attacked politically the next election cycle.
Israel is NOT our friend. Nor should we be their's.

[Zhade]

31. Nothing misdirected about the anger over spying.

Please stop trying to turn this into something about anti-Semitism - it's laughable, and it's not working, because it's not there.

[Fredda Weinberg]

52. You're the one who brought this up ... touchy, ain't ya?

But there seems to be a lot of defensive aggession here - feeling vulnerable, perhaps?

[Zhade]

61. Thanks for accusing me of bigotry that's not there.

The only hypersensitive posters I see are those wrongly smearing those of us willing to criticize spies.

[Fredda Weinberg]

62. Criticize all you want ... I'm just posting facts

If there was crime, it wasn't treason and *our* tax dollars don't support AIPAC. Don't accuse me and I won't suggest that you're being defensively aggressive.

[Zhade]

65. Considering the fact that I never spoke of treason or tax dollars...

...you're way off base.

And I`m not accusing you ~ it's fact that you're hinting around that some of us who disagree with you are somehow anti-Semitic, which is a bullshit charge that weakens the response to ACTUAL anti~Semitism.

[Fredda Weinberg]

73. Considering that you jumped in after a deleted post

would suggest that you're the one who's way off base.

I noted "misdirected anger" after which you accused me of turning this into "something about anti-Semitism". Still says more about you than me, I'd say.

[gonzo8]

39. How typical...

Any time any criticism, even if valid, is leveled against Israel, its policies and now, even its program of spying on the U.S., its supporters trot out the same old jive.

Planet earth calling! This is not misdirected anger. A foreign country is spying on the United States and using confidential information to influence U.S. policy in the Middle East. Simply because some of out citizens feel particularly warm and fuzzy towards this particular country does not excuse the crime!

[Fredda Weinberg]

53. You're making claims not raised by the charges

Israel is not America's enemy and the information the AIPAC officials received was not to the detriment of *our* country. I'm not even sure what they did was a crime - but under no definition can be called treason and AIPAC is not funded by *our* tax dollars.

[MakeItSo]

56. There is an important distinction between Israelis and their leaders

Please don't assume that all supporters of Israel think alike. Because it isn't true. Just as we are victims of morally bankrupt leadership in the US, so are Israelis. Add to the mix that Israeli's version of al-Qaeda isn't sitting in a cave thousands of miles away, but right next door, you can understand the level of fear among the Israeli people. And we all now know from personal experience what a powerful factor fear can be.

But despite that fear, the Israeli peace movement is much more active and vibrant than the peace movement in the US. 2 out of 3 Israelis want a 2 state solution. Did you know that?

As an American, I don't wish to be judged on the basis of George W. Bush, or Lyndon Johnson or Ronald Reagan. Our hands as Americans are stained with more blood than anyone on earth today. But compassionate people around the Globe still reach out to us as individuals, to be judged on our individual merits. Israelis deserve the same chance.

[Tom Joad]

37. That is why the judge gave him only TWELVE years.

This had absolutely nothing to do with Hamas, or even Palestine. Where did you get this idea? Who even claimed that? Can you site some credible source? Or even non-credible source? Or is this your hunch?

[leveymg]

45. Are you kidding? Read the Franklin indictment.

The objective and the actual crime, among other things, was to plant false information into Pentagon files about Iranian WMDs in order to push the U.S. toward an unjustified attack. See, Lawrence Franklin indictment, pp23-24, para 6. http://www.physics911.net/franklinpdf2.pdf FYI: FO3 was Naor Gilon, the Mossad Chief of Station in DC, who fled the country shortly after the investigation was leaked.

Same M.O. and group of perpetrators as the Niger yellowcake forgeries.

[Zhade]

63. Stunning that anyone here will defend these guys!

I hope it's just out of ignorance.

[StrafingMoose]

70. IMO, I doubt US knows something about Hamas that Israel don't.

[meganmonkey]

5. Gotta wonder who these "Jewish leaders" are

since they want to remain confidential. You'd think if they were really proud to support AIPAC, they would make it known.

Slimy is right.

[Zhade]

32. People should also recall that there are rightwing Jews.

Like all other ethnicities, the Jewish people can run the gamut from awesome to awful.

IMHO, anyone supporting these guys falls into the latter camp.

[leveymg]

50. Take Mike Ledeen and Jack Abramoff, for instance.

In their case, rightwing is too nice a word. Neo-fascist is far more accurate.

[Zhade]

66. Indeed - Leeden is an admitted admirer of fascism.

NT!

[Ian David]

8. And it was a crime against Israel, too. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

6. Why am I not suprised. They're bucking for "Prisoner of Zion" status!

Just like they tried to do with Pollard. And under Bush, they just may get it!

PB

[High Plains]

12. Treasonous bastards.

Those who spied for a foreign power.

Those who claim to be an interest group, but are lobbyists for a foreign power.



edited: to replace neologism with actual word

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

16. Nah, spying for a foreign power is sufficient.

[Zhade]

33. This is NOT about anti-Semitism.

These are reasonable concerns, so please don't bother with the nonsense you're using to try to redirect the issue.

It's insulting that you think criticizing spies is somehow bigoted. Quite dumb, too, since it's obvious that's not what's going on here.

[gonzo8]

14. What a freaking disgrace!!!!

"The probe centers on whether a Defense Department policy analyst, Lawrence A. Franklin, provided a draft presidential directive on Iran and other information to AIPAC, and whether AIPAC then passed the material on to Israel, officials have said." Washington Post, April 2005

What a freaking disgrace, that U.S. Jewish leaders would step in to try to assist in the defense of people effectively involved in espionage against their own country. AIPAC, whose offices were raided by the FBI in connection with the probe, should be held responsible for this outrageous conduct. Abramoff may be a total scumbag, but at least he wasn't charged with undermining national security by passing classified information to foreign governments. The information, which included data on Iran nuclear program, appears to have been passed on in an attempt to enable Israel to influence U.S. foreign policy.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ikojo]

19. Super Sunday is coming up....NOT superBOWL Sunday

but Super Sunday...THE day when Jewish Federations across the US call Jewish homes and ask them to donate money to the local Federation. I have a cell phone so they don't get me, they send me letters asking me to pledge which I ignore. I urge ALL Jewish Americans to stop the funding at the source, the Federation system. If there is no money pledged to the local Federations then there will be no money to give to these AIPAC people.

If I ever get the opportunity to voice my opinion to anyone who works at the local Federation, I will. The leaders are much like politicans, they don't listen to the rank and file who cannot afford to have buildings named after them.

[Zhade]

34. Thank you for not playing the anti-Semitism card.

Your intellectual honesty in this discussion is appreciated!

[Malva Zebrina]

21. So the guy was sentenced under the laws of the US after being given a

fair trial according to our laws, sentenced to twelve years for his crimes against the United States and we are to believe that he really did not do a thing to betray this country according to some apologists?

--that is ridiculous

He spied on the US and passed information to the AIPAC that was vital to our national security. And there are still American citizens who would defend that?

Why?

I have a pretty good idea as to why.

[Zhade]

35. There are still people who defend Pollard, so I'm not surprised.

Disgusted, but not surprised.

Well, maybe a little - people here ARE supposed to be well-informed and against supporting criminals like these guys, or so I thought.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

23. FBI conducting more investigations into AIPAC

<snip>

"The FBI is conducting a second round of investigation concerning the Franklin-Aipac case and has interviewed in the past weeks several Jewish leaders and former Aipac officials.

Individuals that have been interviewed by the FBI in the recent weeks have told the Jerusalem Post that they were surprised by the request for another interview after already speaking to investigators last year. The renewed cycle of interviews is intended, so it seems, to gather information of the lobbying practices of Aipac and other advocacy groups, in order to define what "common practice" in the lobbying field is.

The defense for Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman will try to prove to the jury, when the trial begins on April 25, that the two defendants did nothing unusual and that their contacts with Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, in which classified information was passed, were a part of the normal lobbying work.

The prosecution, on its behalf, is trying to establish what are the rules and practices for lobbying and then to prove that Rosen and Weissman's actions were not part of this common practice."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605934374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[leveymg]

68. I knew that DC lobbying was corrupt, but passing classified docs ?

Not normal. It wasn't just a normal, run-of-the-mill espionage, either - that would be a one-way passing of secrets. Instead, this was a full-boat disinformation conspiracy involving Israeli intelligence officers and neocons in an attempt to provoke the US into another war that's contrary to our national interest.

That isn't just normal spying, it's an act of aggression by the Israeli intelligence, and treason by Americans who knowingly acted as their espionage agents.

[cantstandbush]

27. They were already financing them, WTF? Why would AIPAC be allowed

to still operate in this country if they are financing known spies against the US? Even entertaining the idea ought to get them banned.

[Copperred]

48. Agreed.

[Zhade]

29. K/R against the sheer hubris.

As if these guys shouldn't be in prison!

WTF are these people thinking, supporting them? :crazy:

[Dixie Flatline]

36. Innocent until proven guilty

So, they shouldn't be in prison.

[Tom Joad]

38. Dixie. Franklin has been Tried, convicted, sentenced. eom

[Dixie Flatline]

41. The article is about Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman

[Englander]

44. Who were part of the conspiracy with Franklin. n/t

[Zhade]

67. See post #44.

NT!

[tatertop]

40. These treasonous criminals should be hung

Hung until dead dead dead.
Does not matter where they are from.
Treason is treason, death is the penalty.

[Dixie Flatline]

42. They are not being charged with treason

United States Constitution, Article III, Section 3:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Idiots!

They might as well raise money for Jonathan Pollard, another of those misguided Americans that spied for Israel.

[spun_in_montana]

47. I read an article posted to a

blog here in Montana. The article, which won my award for "best spin ever" basically stated that "we" should all be afraid because this investigation of AIPAC means "they" are coming for "us", meaning those who oppose B*sh. The blogger wants to lean to the left, he often posts anti-B*sh comments-which clash I think, with the PNAC and AIPAC links he has.
When I posted about this investigation a few months back on my old blog, I was branded a racist within minutes, got a phone call from Ken Toole, had half of the Jewish Defense League in my inbox, all within hours.
I learned something that day. You may not, as an American, say anything about Israel and those who support her, no matter how true.
Franklin and the other two-in my gut, there are more-tie in quite nicely with the OSP and the WHIG. Lies to invade Iraq and subsequently, Iran.
Its about spies and our foriegn policy, not race, color or creed.
My blog wasnt that widely read (it did make "blog box" here at DU!) but it did stand out here in Montana. It wasnt but a month later, I felt compelled to delete the entire thing as the comments and hate mail kept coming, the slurs and the hatred, all for calling a spy, a spy.
What did learn? I learned I shouldnt support Israel if her supporters have that much hate for the simple truth. And for people who write about it.

An aside, the blogger http://thelastbestplace.blogspot.com , has commented against the Native population of Montana on several occassions. I noticed too that Abramoff didnt care for the troglo-er, Natives either. Is this known?
Do the Israeli's or the Jewish people have something against Native Americans? Did I miss something?

[leveymg]

69. It must be lonely and cold in Montana.

Don't let them call you an anti-semite for criticizing Likud policies. Israel's worst enemies run its government. Just like in Iran. Just like here. Collective survival demands we all do our part to ride them out all of town on a rail.

One down, two to go. Regime change starts at home.

Welcome to DU, Spun_In_Montana. :hi:

[mikeybabe125]

71. not suprizing... everyone knows

Jews are good with money :P

[jefferson_dem]

77. Locking.

Discussion here no longer constructive.