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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:29 PM
Original message
US crops left to rot as Mexicans leave the fields for better-paid jobs
Low pay, harsh conditions and security checks force immigrant workers into other sectors

Standing in the early morning darkness just 50 metres inside the United States, Roberto Camacho is doing his best to ward off the cold. Dressed in a black bomber jacket with a baseball cap pulled low over his brow, he shuffles from foot to foot as he waits for a lift to work.

After 15 years working in the fields of California for American farmers, Mr Camacho has found a new life: two months ago he started working at the Golden Acorn Casino.

"It pays better," he says. "In the fields you work all hours, it's cold and hard and you don't get more than $7 an hour. With this job I have regular hours, I know when I'm going to work and I know what I'm going to earn."

(snip)

The migration from agriculture is taking its toll on one of the largest industries in the US - and particularly on California's $32bn a year sector. Faced with an exodus of labour to the construction industry as well as to the leisure and retail sectors, farmers are struggling to get their crops in. Ten percent of the cauliflower and broccoli harvest has been left to rot this year, and some estimates put the likely loss of the winter harvest as high as 50%.

more…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1702013,00.html
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aden_nak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. New Headline: Shitty Job, Hours And Pay Undesirable.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. So shitty, the immigrant workers won't take them
Hey, this is capitalism. You go for the deal that pays the most. How can Rethuglicans complain about that?

That's the "invisible hand" at work.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
61. more like ....
the invisible finger....
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-08-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
79. Hmm, looks like those agribusiness owners are going to have to pay more!
Ain't free enterprise a bitch?!?!
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. And your weren't aware of this going on?
Thats why guest visas are a bad ideal, why hire an american when you can hire a guest worker at 1/4 the cost.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Guest visas would enable workers to be here legally
and not have to settle for illegal wages below the minimum.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. If they don't want to settle for illegal wages below the minimum
...they shouldn't come here illegally.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, I suppose if they could get guest worker visas, they wouldn't
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. My husband had to pay good money to get into this country legally with me
I don't see why illegals should be held to a lower standard.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. I'm sure many of them would jump at that opportunity.
How many visas does the US issue for Mexican emigrants? 20,000 a year?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. I'm sure you're right
But you're still talking about rewarding hundreds of thousands of people for entering this country illegally.

As for those stuck behind, do you think guest visas will be a case of showing up, asking for one and getting it? Doubtful. The applicants will have to prove they have a job waiting for them in the US, or will have to wait while they're matched with an employer. Not everyone in Mexico who wants a guest visa will get one, not by a long shot.

And don't forget, those employers who hire illegals do so for their own benefit, one that will disappear when they're required to pay their guest visa workers a proper wage, sick/vacation days, contributions, and report it all to the government. My guess is many just won't hire guest visa workers. They'll hire the illegals who couldn't get guest visas but came anyway.

Of course the US could just decide to give illegals amnesty every several years...but then, why waste the time and money on legal immigration at all?
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. well, your husband was well off..
Not all people are so fortunate. But all people deserve a chance.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Well off?
My husband and I are both laughing at the ignorance of your kneejerk assumption. We worked hard to find the money to pay for his visa, but you don't have to be rich to obtain one. It certainly doesn't cost the $1000s Mexicans pay coyotes to get them across the border illegally, whether or not they actually make it. So where's your "impoverished illegal" theory now?

The point I was making is that we followed the letter of the law to bring my husband here legally, and we're tired of slaps in the face from people like you who promote giving illegal immigrants a pass on the entire process. Basically what you're saying with your insulting and specious reference to income is that you grant any indigent foreigner more right to enter the US than the spouse of a U.S. citizen (because the spouse of a U.S. citizen MUST have money?). You're unfair and ill-informed on so many counts. You'd better think again.
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. whoa.. a knee-jerk reaction? Perhaps you should re-read your own
post. Let's look at the original post - I'm quoting you here -

"My husband had to pay good money to get into this country legally with me. I don't see why illegals should be held to a lower standard."

You are the one that seems to believe that money sets the standard for "fairness" in immigration. Strangely, I find the money-setting-the-standard theory in tune with what some GOP leadership has been professing.

Of course, I'll leave alone the whole "you who promote giving illegal immigrants a pass on the entire process". You simply don't know me, and I'll ignore this comment. I just strongly disagree with your standard.

However, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt in believing that you didn't mean your original post to come off as heartless as it did. Because I'm sure you agree that of all things to determine the legality of immigration, the wealth of the immigrant isn't one.

By the way, you don't have to tell me about the hoops of legal immigration, as I myself am a legal immigrant. And I'm also familiar with the struggles of those less fortunate than me.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-08-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. You made money the issue, not me.
You belatedly jumped on my initial post to High Plains, made it mean what you wanted it to mean, and from there on it's obvious you only read what you want to read. You cling to your rash judgement of me while completely ignoring the one point I DO make over and over: it's the law-breaking, and the desire to reward the law-breakers, that I can't abide.

And then you follow through by equating your erroneous read on me with "what some GOP leadership has been professing" and finish by whipping it out: "And I'm also familiar with the struggles of those less fortunate than me."

I'd compare credentials with you, PK, but why bother? You already know everything. So you won't mind if I cut this short. I'm sure you can carry on arguing with me quite nicely by yourself.
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-08-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Avid Lou Dobbs fan?
Thought so. He keeps talking about ILLEGAL aliens, in essence equating them with illegal human beings. They are undocumented workers, which you can find masses of in just about every developed nation. I don't advocate breaking the law. It's the fairness of the law I'm questioning. It's a complex issue, economic, historical, and moral, and I don't claim to have answers. However, you so unquestioningly deferring to THE LAW is naive in my opinion. Every law is made by people with agendas. I'm not calling for anarchically breaking laws, just a bit of critical thinking.

It's ironic that not knowing me, you seem to know that I "already know everything". Quite an assumption.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #69
80. nice to see ever more generosity in America
geez.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. agricultural jobs aren't covered by minimum wage laws, iirc-
nt
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Any body that has done farm work knows that. In my youth I was paid 15
cents for every row of crops I hoed. Come picking time you'd get 20 to 50 cents per bushel you picked. On a good week after working 12 to 14 hours a day, you'd get a whopping $65 if your were fast.
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banana republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. even for a "white boy" it was $2 to $5 a ton
for "bucking" hay. A good job for football players and weight lifters but not much experience for any real jobs after highschool.

Now everything is mechanized...
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
74. Ah, the summers spent detasseling
hard work for no pay. It was a rite of passage where I grew up. Now it's a rite of passage for illegal immigrants. The times they are a changin'.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Now what makes you think that?
Everything shrub inc has done has been for 1 reason big bosses get top dollar and workers get less pay. You really think shrub and his buddies are going to give guest workers top dollar? You can bet your bottom dollar if guest worker visas go through minimum wage laws will not apply to guest workers. One thing shrub has been all for is lowering working americans wages, how much easier will it be when guest workers show up willing to work for less then minimum age before american workers will be forced to do the same.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. I don't trush Bush's guest worker proposal
But I think we have to have some means of regularizing these people. They're here to work. They should be able to do so in some legal fashion.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. And that would mean that increased competition for jobs that do
pay reasonably will go down due to increased competition for those jobs.

These jobs, casino work for example, cannot be exported and thus could pay a little better if the labor market numbers were stable. It would be the same in construction, for example, which used to pay well and provide benefits.

Just ask tech workers about the effects of the H1-B visa program on their pay, hiring and promotion prospects. Bush wants to do the same to everyone else.

I feel badly that the Mexican economy doesn't generate sufficient jobs for Mexican citizens. One problem Mexico has had is that the population exploded and the jobs situation didn't follow suit. As recently as the '70s, most Mexican women had 6 or so children. Now its down to something like 2.5-3. Still, the large family effect continues for a long time.

Nafta was supposed to help by sending American jobs south to Mexico, but the Chinese under priced Mexican labor.

If U.S. employers can't find U.S. workers at reasonable pay and benefit levels, then I'd be fine with a guest worker or mass immigration program. Until then, though, my first allegiance is to U.S. workers who are citizens or legal immigrants.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
84. and all the other crap
fear of immigration
poor living conditions
predators extorting, robbing, killing
paying to get across border with no guarantee you will live or get here
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cdsilv Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. GOOD!!!!
damn mega-agribusiness has been enslaving migrants with sub-standard wages for decades.

Big Shugah has been doing the same.

They'll just do what Halliburton did in NO, hire illegals from Central/South america and pay them less than the minimum wage. AND force them to live in fenced compounds.

I don't really eat cauliflower, etc...

Let big agribiz suffer....
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Love that free market...
....
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-03-06 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was about to post this because if you go down to the middle of the story
Edited on Fri Feb-03-06 11:54 PM by Up2Late
...you find this bit NOT to be missed!!!

...The labour shortage has already produced one wage rise since November, pushing salaries above the minimum level. Workers have also been put off by the attentions of la migra, the border patrol which has the task of apprehending illegal entrants inside the US.

"The border patrol checks the buses," says Mr Clunn. "They get everyone off the bus. These guys want to come here, work, get their beer and go home." Time spent being checked by the border patrol, he says, is precious work time lost. The attention of the border patrol has united farmers, workers and unions. It has also set some of the business community against the Republican party.:evilgrin:

Jon Vessey is the biggest farmer in the valley, with 3,240 hectares growing carrots, artichokes, cabbage and half a dozen varieties of lettuce.

"Last year money was being thrown at border patrol and homeland security," Mr Vessey says, sitting in his office in the nearby town of El Centro, a signed photograph of him with George and Laura Bush hanging on the wall. "They've got to get numbers. :hi: So what do they do? They pull over labour buses. The bottom line is, we're not getting people on to our buses with bags of marijuana and bombs. These are hard-working people...."


<http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1702013,00.html?gusrc=rss>
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. Lou Dobbs would say that there are millions of Americans
that want these wonderful jobs that Mexicans won't take.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I guess Lou Dobbs would be wrong. Now, that's a surprise!
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Lou Dobbs should take one of these jobs!
see you picking vegetables, Lou
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
83. He won't do that
Like one R. Cheney---- He has "OTHER THINGS TO DO"
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. well, now that these wages have risen somewhat-maybe Americans
really will want them????
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. I picked cherries for spending money between the ages of 11 and 15.
That was before I could get a work permit. It wasn't great work, but I've done worse chores. Weeding the large family garden on hands and knees wasn't fun, either, and I didn't get paid for that. In fact, some of the stay-at-home moms did it for extra money along with their older children.

If it paid well (and offered benefits), I bet you'd see more people doing it, especially kids from families with modest incomes doing it summers, after school and on the weekends.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Not so long ago in the Pacific Northwest, young teens used to earn
money during the summer berry picking. My cousins started doing that at the age of twelve or so.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. My guess is that fruit picking doesn't pay well. That's why
you can't get enough Americans (or apparently now Mexicans) to do it.
There are no benefits for fruit-pickers.

The farmers that need the help would probably say that they can't afford to pay more in the way of wages or benefits because doing so would require them to raise prices. They would say raising prices would make them lose out to foreign grown fruit.

I don't know that there's any good answer to any of this. It seems that if we paid people more to pick fruits and vegetables, Americans would have to pay more for the fruit at the grocery or we would buy cheaper foreign fruit and our farms would go out of business.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
82. Would YOU pick peaches for $10 an hour? Babysit for $8 an hour? (reposted
SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-27-05 03:51 PM
Original message


Would YOU pick peaches for $10 an hour? Babysit for $8 an hour?

Edited on Wed Apr-27-05 03:53 PM by SoCalDem

The little troll on Lou Dobbs' show today flatly stated AGAIN (for the umpteenth time) that "there are just some jobs that Americans just WON'T do".. He claimed that "the 18 yr old at Starbucks would NOT pick peaches at ANY pay rate"..

I disagree. there are always people who WILL do menial labor, stoop labor, and repetitive type labor. They cannot AFFORD to do it at $5 an hour though.

The dilemma we have is this..

IF we assume that fruit/vegetable pickers are at the bottom of the wage-ladder, and prices have escalated to the level of today, is it because the workers have started to get MORE in wages, or that the companies HIRING them have just taken a larger and larger cut of the money generated from the sale of that fruit?

Oil companies have presented us with the same issue. Last year when oil was $50 a barrel, and prices climbed to "near $2.00", they raked in PROFITS up 50-60% over previous year levels...and now that oil is considerably higher, they are making even MORE OBSCENE profits.

Higher prices seem to have little if ANY connection with supply and demand. The only demand, is that the CEOs DEMAND more money.

But I digress...

Are there jobs that Americans won't do??

We have had septic tanks cleaned before..by Americans..

We have had plumbers crawl into spidery-filthy crawl spaces..Americans again

We have had concrete work done in August..by Americans

We have had babysitters..Americans

In fact, I personally, have NEVER hired a non-American to do ANY job I have ever needed done.. and I have never had ANY trouble finding someone to do whatever job we needed done..

I just wish that more people would call these guys on their coded diatribes.. There are jobs to be done, and there are people who would do them..but they expect to be paid..

How many CEOs take NO compensation for their work??



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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Hmmm...what of the jobs they're leaving the fields for?
You suppose the Mexicans leaving the fields for better pay might be taking jobs Americans do want?

"It pays better," he says. "In the fields you work all hours, it's cold and hard and you don't get more than $7 an hour. With this job I have regular hours, I know when I'm going to work and I know what I'm going to earn."

Mr Camacho is not unique. Agricultural labourers, almost exclusively Latinos and at least two-thirds of them undocumented, are moving into more stable, less harsh employment.


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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I get it now!
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 09:21 AM by joemurphy
We should just restrict the jobs open to Mexican immigrants to the ones real Americans don't want!

Um, but why are those jobs that the Mexicans seem to be wanting open?

Would it have anything to do with the fact that real Americans aren't filling them? Or maybe because they don't like that sort of work? Or maybe it's because the Mexicans work like dogs and employers prefer them to real Americans?

I dunno. But I'm not sure you or Lou Dobbs know either.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Mexicans will work harder for LOWER wages than Americans.
Fuck, I'd take a fruit-picking job in a heartbeat if I thought it might pay the bills. But since I know it won't, I'll look for a better job.

The key here is not that Mexicans work harder than Americans (that suggestion seems racist somehow to me, like Jimmy the Greek's comments about the superiority of black atheletes in the 80's), it's that since they're far more desperate, they'll take very hard jobs and demand less pay for the work they do than Americans would.

The solution here is twofold: LEGAL immigrants from Latin America need to organize and form unions to demand higher wages, AND American companies need to penalized for hiring ILLEGAL immgrants.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Well, I'm no racist and I didn't intend to sound like one.
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 07:00 PM by joemurphy
I agree that Mexicans who are desperate will take low-paying jobs and work hard at them. But they also seem to work hard at higher paying jobs -- construction work, etc. As I mentioned below, I've spoken with a lot of employers here in the cement industry that don't lowball the Mexicans and pay them the same they pay Americans. But they seem to like the Mexicans generally because of their work ethic -- showing up on time, eager to work overtime, and putting forth good effort because they want to take advantage of the opportunities provided. Some Americans have the same ethic. A lot don't.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. When I picked cherries, the Mexicans didn't work any harder than we did.
And the percentage of leaves and twigs in their lugs (the cherry equivalent of bushels) was much larger. The canners would not pay top dollar for trucks full of leaves and twigs. In fact, we white kids ended up with a premium because our lugs were cleaner and got the best prices.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. My conversations with local people here (Indianapolis)
that employ Mexicans (which isn't in the fruit industry -- I'm talking mostly cement workers) is that they prefer them because they want the jobs and are grateful to be employed, they show up for work, and when they do they work very hard. This, they say, was in contrast to many American citizen workers. I've heard this from several employers -- not just one. I know this is all anecdotal, but when you keep hearing it from different sources, you eventually come to think their might be something to it.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. I'm not saying that they don't work hard.
I also take what employers say with a grain of salt. What they don't say is that the Mexicans won't try to unionize and they don't care about whether the employer is engaging in unsafe practices. They will take anything that the employer dishes out. Employers want employees who are grateful because they will tolerate abuse.
I'm not defending workers who do not do an honest days work, so long as they are getting an honest day's pay and safe working conditions.

Meanwhile, how are the U.S. citizens and legal immigrants who were not hired to work at the cement plant because undocumenteds were hired supporting themselves and their families?

Decent jobs are scarce no matter what * says. You can lay off, refuse to hire, and import replacements for citizens, but you cannot take away their citizenship and ask them to leave. Not that other countries will take them. Eventually, too many unemployed citizens and too many legal and illegal replacement workers in a static labor economy will lead to very, very bad things. Those very, very bad things are social costs that economists and free traders refuse to take into account, but which do not go away.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. There's a lot of truth in what you're saying...
Particularly about illegal Mexicans tolerating abusive employers. I won't deny that I've seen that too -- guys promised a certain wage and then, come payday, being paid less. Such employers know that the illegals fear going to Wage & Hour and lodging complaints. But as somebody mentioned, the Mexicans aren't stupid either. They network and the "word" on these sorts of employers gets round and the Mexicans avoid them.

As to the U.S. citizens losing jobs to illegal Mexicans, I'm sympathetic to what you're saying -- but mostly where employers are paying lowball wages to entice illegals and run off Americans. I'm less sympathetic where the employers pay a fair wage and just like Mexicans because they're dependable and work hard. I don't think Americans should get high paying jobs when they don't put in the work to earn the pay. I guess we sort of agree on that.

My beef with the scarcity of jobs is less with illegal Mexicans and more with corporations who are globalizing and taking them to the third world.
Most of the illegals I know that come here have had to overcome a lot. They're ambitious and willing to work. I guess I have a soft spot in my heart for good, hard working people, that want a chance in life. I think we treat these people awfully shabbily.

I also think that we're always going to have a "problem" with Mexican illegals as long as the economic situation in Mexico is hopeless. I think this is an area that could use some focus too. Until that happens, in human terms, I don't think we can deport the 10 Million or so (nobody knows how many, I suppose) illegals that are already here. I also don't see how we're going to stop the flow either -- short of shooting them. And I wouldn't want to see that.

I've heard pros and cons on the "cost" of immigration. Some illegals operate in a cash economy and don't pay taxes. Others, however, have taxes and social security deducted from paychecks and never get the benefit of what they pay in. Others go to emergency rooms for health care that we pay for. But our food and hotel rooms and housing is cheap because of Mexican labor too. Employers are seldom penalized for hiring Mexicans. But they routinely work at government projects, clean public halls, offices and rest rooms, and do the landscaping around government buildings. Virtually all the asbestos removal in my town gets done by Mexican laborers. They have to be licensed to get that work. It's all so hypocritical.

In Indiana, illegals can't get drivers licenses. Because they don't have licenses, they can't purchase insurance. So they drive and get in accidents. If it's their fault -- no insurance. If it isn't, they usually don't get reimbursed and are apt to get arrested and, often, lose their cars when they are towed away. It's all so dumb. So lame.

Meanwhile Ford and GM lay off workers and move to Asia. Apparently even pay Americans like Mexicans isn't good enough for them. Hooray for free enterprise capitalism.


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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. I agree with you wholeheartedly on "free enterprise capitalism."
Exploitation economics would be a better term for it. We should do everything we can to fight back, and I've been talking about this for years.

I too feel bad for the Mexicans, and I personally saw immense squalor when I was a kid among the farm workers. One kid in first grade was so hungry that he ate a paste and paper sandwich one morning. Thank heavens the teacher recoginized what the problem was and managed to get the family some help.

Mexico is an economic mess. Their business, cultural and political leadership defines corrupt and unresponsive. A few filthy rich families control most of the wealth and send their cash out of the country. They don't give a damn about the average Mexican and are extremely racist--they're of European heritage and the rest of the population is mixed or native. Any interference on our part would not be tolerated by any Mexican, so the Mexicans will have to change things themselves, although we can surely offer help. The Mexicans must fix this themselves.

However, my first allegiance and concern is to keep this country functioning. We may have to find a way to motivate some U.S. workers, but I think that we should only bring in new people when we have jobs that go begging at reasonable compensation level. Yes, this means that somethings will be more expensive like they were in the '60s and '70s, but we will avoid the social problems that come with a too wide income gap between rich and poor. If we find that we do need more workers, we can then up our immigration level.

I also am concerned that we have reached carrying capacity in many, many areas. We've paved over so much good farmland and we are facing serious water shortages, and not just in the Southwest. For example, recently, suburban areas of Chicago and Milwaukee have run up against the limits of groundwater mining and the environmental necessity that water pumped from Lake Michigan must be extensively treated and returned.

I believe that Peak Oil will change many things in the next 50-60 years, and one of them will be agriculture. We may need all that land just to feed everyone who lives here now. We already import a very large amount of food. In the future we may not be able to do so, so I think that we must temper our actions today to secure the best future that we can in what I expect will be challenging times.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Uh, the unemployment rate is pretty low these days.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Well, Bush and the corporate media say unemployment is low.
The rest of us know better.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #43
58. Not true for blueberry rakers -- the Mexicans always worked harder
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 11:06 AM by mainer
My kids raked blueberries for a few summers. They told me that the Mexican workers worked faster and for longer hours than the white workers ever did. My sons were in awe, and a little embarrassed that they couldn't keep up. Every season, my boys (and their pals) only lasted a few days and then quit because the work was too back-breaking. It was the Mexicans who finished the season.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Are you comparing young teens to adults?
From what I've heard of blueberry raking, adults, particularly young adults, would have an advantage in strength and endurance.

Picking cherries on the other hand is physical work--one carries a bucket strapped to one's chest and climbs up and down ladders frequently--but not that demanding. However, quick fingers are the most important, IMHO, in filling a bucket quickly.

On the other hand, perhaps things have changed.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I'm comparing 16-year-olds (mine) to guys in their 30's (Mexicans)
If you ask me, my kids had the physical advantage. But they didn't have the drive or the focus. That, plus they decided they'd rather cool off at home with a cold drink and a video game.

That summer taught them a great deal of respect for Mexican workers. And made them realize that a lot of people in this world have it a lot worse than Americans do.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. ...they do jobs Americans won't
Is this what Bush keeps spewing out?
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks to Bush!!!
Maybe they need to pay more...
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
21. I learn much from the BRITS!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. Soon it will be prison fare
Prisners working thankless there
Ag workers enslaved by the dozen,
outsiders poor and their cousins,
the new slaves for all the luvin'.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
24. No loss, they are Genetically Modified crops anyway.
let them rot. And never use them for compost.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
25. Now the truth is coming out!
Same thing happened in Cuban during the Fulgencio Batista era with Meyer Lansky building casinos one after another. All the cubans wanted to be casino worker, whores, pimps, or cab drivers. Who wanted to work the fields? It all changed in 1959. When Batista & Lansky was driven from power and out of the country. Did that piss the U.S. off?
http://www.latercera.cl/showjpg/0,,1_124011168_195,00.jpg
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. Back breaking work, and they're treated as slaves
I worked for a tomato and bean cannery in Ohio many years back, and I got to saw up close just how hard they all work, and the conditions they're forced to live in. And those brave people endure it stoically. They deserve much better.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. Housing conditions in Michigan have improved tremendously.
Legislation and regulation made a huge difference.

Now, most migrants are housed in renovated abandoned farm houses, trailers and modest, but clean and modern, purpose-built housing. There are lots of services, including special summer educational programs and book-mobiles for kids, since the little ones can't work anymore.

Some of the locals live in worse, believe me. And all the migrants have reliable vehicular transportation.

Picking vegetables and fruit is still cruddy work, however.
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humus Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
28. lost footing on the land


The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to foster its renewal is our only hope.”



WE ARE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY -- I mean our country itself, our land. This is a terrible thing to know, but it is not a reason for despair unless we decide to continue the destruction. If we decide to continue the destruction, that will not be because we have no other choice. This destruction is not necessary. It is not inevitable, except that by our submissiveness we make it so.


We Americans are not usually thought to be a submissive people, but of course we are. Why else would we allow our country to be destroyed? Why else would we be rewarding its destroyers? Why else would we all -- by proxies we have given to greedy corporations and corrupt politicians -- be participating in its destruction? Most of us are still too sane to piss in our own cistern, but we allow others to do so and we reward them for it. We reward them so well, in fact, that those who piss in our cistern are wealthier than the rest of us.


How do we submit? By not being radical enough. Or by not being thorough enough, which is the same thing.


Since the beginning of the conservation effort in our country, conservationists have too often believed that we could protect the land without protecting the people. This has begun to change, but for a while yet we will have to reckon with the old assumption that we can preserve the natural world by protecting wilderness areas while we neglect or destroy the economic landscapes -- the farms and ranches and working forests -- and the people who use them. That assumption is understandable in view of the worsening threats to wilderness areas, but it is wrong. If conservationists hope to save even the wild lands and wild creatures, they are going to have to address issues of economy, which is to say issues of the health of the landscapes and the towns and cities where we do our work, and the quality of that work, and the well-being of the people who do the work.


Governments seem to be making the opposite error, believing that the people can be adequately protected without protecting the land. And here I am not talking about parties or party doctrines, but about the dominant political assumption. Sooner or later, governments will have to recognize that if the land does not prosper, nothing else can prosper for very long. We can have no industry or trade or wealth or security if we don't uphold the health of the land and the people and the people's work.


It is merely a fact that the land, here and everywhere, is suffering. We have the "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico and undrinkable water to attest to the toxicity of our agriculture. We know that we are carelessly and wastefully logging our forests. We know that soil erosion, air and water pollution, urban sprawl, the proliferation of highways and garbage are making our lives always less pleasant, less healthful, less sustainable, and our dwelling places more ugly.





Nearly forty years ago my state of Kentucky, like other coal-producing states, began an effort to regulate strip mining. While that effort has continued, and has imposed certain requirements of "reclamation," strip mining has become steadily more destructive of the land and the land's future. We are now permitting the destruction of entire mountains and entire watersheds. No war, so far, has done such extensive or such permanent damage. If we know that coal is an exhaustible resource, whereas the forests over it are with proper use inexhaustible, and that strip mining destroys the forest virtually forever, how can we permit this destruction? If we honor at all that fragile creature the topsoil, so long in the making, so miraculously made, so indispensable to all life, how can we destroy it? If we believe, as so many of us profess to do, that the Earth is God's property and is full of His glory, how can we do harm to any part of it?

In Kentucky, as in other unfortunate states, and again at great public cost, we have allowed -- in fact we have officially encouraged -- the establishment of the confined animal-feeding industry, which exploits and abuses everything involved: the land, the people, the animals, and the consumers. If we love our country, as so many of us profess to do, how can we so desecrate it?


But the economic damage is not confined just to our farms and forests. For the sake of "job creation," in Kentucky, and in other backward states, we have lavished public money on corporations that come in and stay only so long as they can exploit people here more cheaply than elsewhere. The general purpose of the present economy is to exploit, not to foster or conserve.


Look carefully, if you doubt me, at the centers of the larger towns in virtually every part of our country. You will find that they are economically dead or dying. Good buildings that used to house needful, useful, locally owned small businesses of all kinds are now empty or have evolved into junk stores or antique shops. But look at the houses, the churches, the commercial buildings, the courthouse, and you will see that more often than not they are comely and well made. And then go look at the corporate outskirts: the chain stores, the fast-food joints, the food-and-fuel stores that no longer can be called service stations, the motels. Try to find something comely or well made there.


What is the difference? The difference is that the old town centers were built by people who were proud of their place and who realized a particular value in living there. The old buildings look good because they were built by people who respected themselves and wanted the respect of their neighbors. The corporate outskirts, on the contrary, were built by people who manifestly take no pride in the place, see no value in lives lived there, and recognize no neighbors. The only value they see in the place is the money that can be siphoned out of it to more fortunate places -- that is, to the wealthier suburbs of the larger cities.


Can we actually suppose that we are wasting, polluting, and making ugly this beautiful land for the sake of patriotism and the love of God? Perhaps some of us would like to think so, but in fact this destruction is taking place because we have allowed ourselves to believe, and to live, a mated pair of economic lies: that nothing has a value that is not assigned to it by the market; and that the economic life of our communities can safely be handed over to the great corporations.



We citizens have a large responsibility for our delusion and our destructiveness, and I don't want to minimize that. But I don't want to minimize, either, the large responsibility that is borne by government.


It is commonly understood that governments are instituted to provide certain protections that citizens individually cannot provide for themselves. But governments have tended to assume that this responsibility can be fulfilled mainly by the police and the military. They have used their regulatory powers reluctantly and often poorly. Our governments have only occasionally recognized the need of land and people to be protected against economic violence. It is true that economic violence is not always as swift, and is rarely as bloody, as the violence of war, but it can be devastating nonetheless. Acts of economic aggression can destroy a landscape or a community or the center of a town or city, and they routinely do so.


Such damage is justified by its corporate perpetrators and their political abettors in the name of the "free market" and "free enterprise," but this is a freedom that makes greed the dominant economic virtue, and it destroys the freedom of other people along with their communities and livelihoods. There are such things as economic weapons of massive destruction. We have allowed them to be used against us, not just by public submission and regulatory malfeasance, but also by public subsidies, incentives, and sufferances impossible to justify.


We have failed to acknowledge this threat and to act in our own defense. As a result, our once-beautiful and bountiful countryside has long been a colony of the coal, timber, and agribusiness corporations, yielding an immense wealth of energy and raw materials at an immense cost to our land and our land's people. Because of that failure also, our towns and cities have been gutted by the likes of Wal-Mart, which have had the permitted luxury of destroying locally owned small businesses by means of volume discounts.


Because as individuals or even as communities we cannot protect ourselves against these aggressions, we need our state and national governments to protect us. As the poor deserve as much justice from our courts as the rich, so the small farmer and the small merchant deserve the same economic justice, the same freedom in the market, as big farmers and chain stores. They should not suffer ruin merely because their rich competitors can afford (for a while) to undersell them.


Furthermore, to permit the smaller enterprises always to be ruined by false advantages, either at home or in the global economy, is ultimately to destroy local, regional, and even national capabilities of producing vital supplies such as food and textiles. It is impossible to understand, let alone justify, a government's willingness to allow the human sources of necessary goods to be destroyed by the "freedom" of this corporate anarchy. It is equally impossible to understand how a government can permit, and even subsidize, the destruction of the land and the land's productivity. Somehow we have lost or discarded any controlling sense of the interdependence of the Earth and the human capacity to use it well. The governmental obligation to protect these economic resources, inseparably human and natural, is the same as the obligation to protect us from hunger or from foreign invaders. In result, there is no difference between a domestic threat to the sources of our life and a foreign one.


It appears that we have fallen into the habit of compromising on issues that should not, and in fact cannot, be compromised. I have an idea that a large number of us, including even a large number of politicians, believe that it is wrong to destroy the Earth. But we have powerful political opponents who insist that an Earth-destroying economy is justified by freedom and profit. And so we compromise by agreeing to permit the destruction only of parts of the Earth, or to permit the Earth to be destroyed a little at a time -- like the famous three-legged pig that was too well loved to be slaughtered all at once.


The logic of this sort of compromising is clear, and it is clearly fatal. If we continue to be economically dependent on destroying parts of the Earth, then eventually we will destroy it all.





So long a complaint accumulates a debt to hope, and I would like to end with hope. To do so I need only repeat something I said at the beginning: Our destructiveness has not been, and it is not, inevitable. People who use that excuse are morally incompetent, they are cowardly, and they are lazy. Humans don't have to live by destroying the sources of their life. People can change; they can learn to do better. All of us, regardless of party, can be moved by love of our land to rise above the greed and contempt of our land's exploiters. This of course leads to practical problems, and I will offer a short list of practical suggestions.

We have got to learn better to respect ourselves and our dwelling places. We need to quit thinking of rural America as a colony. Too much of the economic history of our land has been that of the export of fuel, food, and raw materials that have been destructively and too cheaply produced. We must reaffirm the economic value of good stewardship and good work. For that we will need better accounting than we have had so far.


We need to reconsider the idea of solving our economic problems by "bringing in industry." Every state government appears to be scheming to lure in a large corporation from somewhere else by "tax incentives" and other squanderings of the people's money. We ought to suspend that practice until we are sure that in every state we have made the most and the best of what is already there. We need to build the local economies of our communities and regions by adding value to local products and marketing them locally before we seek markets elsewhere.


We need to confront honestly the issue of scale. Bigness has a charm and a drama that are seductive, especially to politicians and financiers; but bigness promotes greed, indifference, and damage, and often bigness is not necessary. You may need a large corporation to run an airline or to manufacture cars, but you don't need a large corporation to raise a chicken or a hog. You don't need a large corporation to process local food or local timber and market it locally.


And, finally, we need to give an absolute priority to caring well for our land -- for every bit of it. There should be no compromise with the destruction of the land or of anything else that we cannot replace. We have been too tolerant of politicians who, entrusted with our country's defense, become the agents of our country's destroyers, compromising on its ruin.


And so I will end this by quoting my fellow Kentuckian, a great patriot and an indomitable foe of strip mining, Joe Begley of Blackey: "Compromise, hell!"


.


WENDELL BERRY farms in Port Royal, Kentucky, with his family. He is the author of more than thirty books of fiction, essays, and poetry, including Citizen Papers, The Unsettling of America, and Another Turn of the Crank (essays); That Distant Land (stories); and A Timbered Choir: The Sabbath Poems 1979-1997. His new novel, Hannah Coulter, will be published this fall by Shoemaker & Hoard.










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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. Not to mention they get leukemia and lymphoma by the droves.
It's really scary how many farmworkers we treat (mostly legal, for those who are crazed about illegal aliens)from the Imperial Valley agricultural area in Southern California who have leukemia or lymphoma.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. caused by exposure to ag chemicals,
chemicals that require licences to purchase and apply...often the farmworkers are not given proper protection from the sprays they apply, or those to which they are exposed in the course of working with the crops.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. When I was a youngster
back in the 40s and 50s, I grew up in a small farming community. Farm workers in that town consisted of quite a few locals, many of them teens wanting to earn some cash. The rest of the workers (the majority) were "imported" from Puerto Rico. Farmers supplied living quarters for the imported workers and paid their transportation to the mainland. The workers came in on farm workers' visas. My uncle had an chicken/egg and asparagus farm. He had the same workers every year. I believe all the workers were paid about the same, but I really have no memory of that. I'm not sure what was happening on the Mexican border at that time, but I don't remember all the problems we have presently.

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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Puerto Ricans were given US citizenship in 1917
They no more needed visas than North Carolinians or Texans. Maybe they visited from another country.

IIRC there was a guest worker program in WWII and after for Mexican folks.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Then it's me that's wrong.
I should have known better, because I know that Puerto Ricans are US citizens. I got a bit confused with who was who. You have to forgive me, you really do - I have that oldtimer's thingy. ;-) The other things I said were corect, though.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No offense meant by me
I'm not Puerto Rican but I am a know-it-all.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. Same as I remember.. See my post #42.
My mom still lives in the same area, and one of my friends is a cherry and asparagus farmer.

I see the conditions when I visit 3-4 times every summer.

And you are right about the family thing. Many farmers employ the same family every year, including many extended families. I think that situation works well for both parties. The kids then are known in the local school system because they are in attendance every fall and spring. That helps the teachers to know the kids' strengths and weaknesses so that the kids don't fall through the cracks.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
81. our family had a dairy farm...
there were barracks on the farm for when they hired field hands to help bring in the wheat and corn they fed to the cows...once it was in the silos...they weren't needed...

They were housed, fed and paid....and my mother said they were typically Americans or recent immigrants from Europe (this was in PA...back in the 30-50's...)...when my grandparents kids had a loads of sons...those sons had to put their fair share of work in at the farm to help out...
they figured why pay for labor when there were all these strong grandsons...

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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
32. We're all complicit in this. One way to improve things is to buy
organic; at least workers aren't exposed to the toxic chemicals of conventional farming. Many organic farms pay a better wage (this isn't universally true: the larger factory farms are far less likely). Also, try to get organic grown in the US: organic grown in Mexico/Central/South America doesn't necessarily pay better wages (although at least workers aren't exposed to the chemicals, assuming the farm is truly organic).

If you can, buy locally; support community supported agriculture. Less pollution is generated because the produce isn't shipped long distances, plus it's fresher.

Be willing to pay more for organic; give up some other unnecessary consumption if money is tight (movies, restaurants, CDs, etc). Especially if you buy organic in season, it's not all that more expensive. Do what you can to help other humans.
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Wow, the first REAL solution to this problem...
kudos!
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
37. The crops have to be picked. What are our options?
1. Cut back on US agriculture.
2. Vast improvement in mechanization.
3. Pay workers more so native US folks will do the work.
and any others that one can think of.

Bottom line the price of food would rise.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. The price of food would need to raise only minimally to make a
significant increase in workers wages. For example, a few years ago some organization calculated that by consumers paying only 5-10 cents more per pint of strawberries, per hourly wages of strawberry pickers would double.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
64. Doesn't it cost money to let the crops rot?
If the owners want to stay in busines, they need to consider raising wages. Food has been going up anyway--who's getting that money?

Sounds like the owners would rather complain than work to solve this problem.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. I Did Some Googling On This Article
And this is what it turned up:

http://www.cjrdaily.org/behind_the_news/the_farmer_you_keep_reading_ab.php

The Farmer You Keep Reading About, and the Reporters Who Love Him
Edward B. Colby

In a post Monday at Political Animal, Kevin Drum remarked that the Los Angeles Times had just run a story about the shortage of immigrant labor ready and willing to harvest the winter vegetable crop. He pointed to the story's third paragraph: "'Come January, we could see lettuce rotting in the fields because there will be no one to pick it,' said Jon Vessey, who farms 8,000 acres near El Centro." ...
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. Well, no one ever said they were stupid
Hard working yes, but not stupid. Who wouldn't leave a bad, poor paying job for an easier, better paying job?

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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
63. Well there you go for every one that has bitched about Mexicans......
taking these jobs away from us Americans. Where are the line of Americans wanting these jobs???????
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Employers are not hurting for applicants in my area.
Unskilled and low-skilled jobs are filled by folks getting laid off from manufacturing jobs and others who have burned out on long-distance trucking. I don't hear of many complaints that jobs are going unfilled.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. So Americans are finally out there picking the food in the fields?
Good!
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. This area does not have a significant fruit or vegetable farming
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 05:13 AM by amandabeech
community. Corn, soybeans and hay are harvested mechanically. I am not living in the community in which I grew up.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Well I guess we will have a shortage of veggies.
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 01:36 PM by TriMetFan
Because the veggies are rotting in the fields. No one to pick them for $7 hr. So I guess there are still no lines of Americans to start picking the veggies in the fields, right? So who is this hurting? I would have to the farmer, the consumer ect..... We have made the poor man or women from the latin countries into some kind of demon for doing a job we would not do. So are veggies will rot in the fields.

oh; Well, Shit happens.:sarcasm:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
65. Well this smashes the theory that illegal aliens do the work
that Americans aren't willing to do.

Looks like they don't like being exploited either.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
71. Do illegal workers pay taxes?
I suspect they don't.
If they don't then they're left with more to spend then US citizens doing the same job.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Generally, yes they do
They use fake ID papers so they are usually on the payroll with taxes withheld, just like everybody else. They also pay sales taxes and their rent contributes to property taxes, just like everybody else too. They're no more a burden on the system than any other low income US citizen.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Amen too that. But our veggies will rot in the fields because......
no American is willing to do this hard job at $7 a hr. So again who is hurt by this???? The farmer, the consumer ect..... oh well that is live in America right. We got to hate and blame some one or we are not happy people.
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