US blames Syria for not protecting embassies

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04334765.htm

CRAWFORD, Texas, Feb 4 (Reuters) - The United States blamed Syria on Saturday for not protecting the Danish and Norwegian embassies that were torched by protesters angered about the depiction of the Prophet Mohammad in cartoons.

"The government of Syria's failure to provide protection to diplomatic premises, in the face of warnings that violence was planned, is inexcusable," he (McClellan) said in a statement from Texas, where President George W. Bush is staying at his Crawford ranch.

The U.S. State Department has told the Syrian ambassador that Syria must protect all foreign embassies and citizens in Damascus from attack, McClellan said.

"We will hold Syria responsible for such violent demonstrations since they do not take place in that country without government knowledge and support," he said.

On Friday, the United States sided with Muslims outraged that the publications publishing the cartoons put press freedom over respect for religion.

[Erika]

1. W should have taken his father's advice

George HW Bush wrote he did not occupy Iraq because in doing so it would throw the ME into turmoil - and unleash fanatics world wide.

The Danes were totally irresponsible in this situation with mocking the Holy Islam Prophet. Al Qaeda has now said the Danes will pay in blood for their mocking Mohammad.

Heck uv a job, Georgie and Condi.

[msongs]

2. yes let's live our lives on al queda's terms. nt

[Erika]

10. Insulting their Holy Prophet is playing into their hands. n/t

[QC]

25. Of course, the Islamist fanatics also played into the cartoonists' hands.

It's hilarious, in a dark way: the cartoonists portrayed Islamists as violent and irrational, and Islamists responded by acting violently and irrationally.

As for "insulting" a "Holy Prophet," Christian DUers are insulted about 100 times a day here, but I don't recall anyone resorting to rioting and arson over it. Perhaps these people in Syria could learn to do what the rest of us learned when we were about ten years old--to ignore things that offend us.

[corporate_mike]

48. c'mon now

[CJCRANE]

39. Bushco already does -

he removed US troops from Saudi Arabia (as demanded by bin Laden) and let bin Laden escape to his country retreat in the Pakistan mountans.

[Posteritatis]

3. "The Danes were totally irresponsible," my ass

I'm not a big fan of collective guilt.

"The Danes" as a population are no more responsible or irresponsible for this silliness than "The Americans" as a population are responsible for the actions of Fred Phelps.

This "let's go tar entire nations 'cause of the actions of a few newspapers!" stupidity is just that.

[Erika]

8. W and his proclamation that Jesus was his greatest

philosopher has enabled the rabid right wing like Phelps, Robertson, and Falwell.

The right wingers have gone on a crusade against gays with every much the same fervor. As in the injuries at the gay bar.

[Posteritatis]

13. So what? You still aren't to be held responsible for them. (n/t)

[AngryAmish]

46. Best post of the Month

[Andromeda]

53. It's understood that our embassies...

in foreign countries will be there for the benefit of Americans who travel or live abroad. Nothing excuses the destruction of the Danish embassy in Damascus. There is an agreement between nations to preserve and protect the liaisons provided for each country's citizens.

The Danes were not responsible for the violence from the Muslim community, the Muslims were.

George Bush did make the ME more unstable but he didn't draw the cartoons that set off the radical Islamists.

[bemildred]

4. I'm sure the Chinese will find this amusing:

A detailed investigative article in the October 17 London Observer reported that NATO deliberately bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade last May, after discovering that the embassy was relaying Yugoslav military radio signals.

The report contradicted the public assurances of NATO leaders that the missile attack had been an accident. The Observer's sources included "a flight controller operating in Naples, an intelligence officer monitoring Yugoslav radio traffic from Macedonia and a senior headquarters officer in Brussels."

So far, the reaction in the mainstream U.S. media has been a deafening silence. To date, none of America's three major network evening news programs has mentioned the Observer's findings. Neither has the New York Times or USA Today, even though the story was covered by AP, Reuters and other major wires. The Washington Post relegated the story to a 90-word news brief in its "World Briefing" (10/18/99), under the headline "NATO Denies Story on Embassy Bombing."

By contrast, the story appeared in England not only in the Observer and its sister paper, the Guardian (10/17/99), but also in their leading rival, the Times of London, which ran a follow-up article on the official reaction the next day (10/18/99). The Globe and Mail, Canada's most prestigious paper, ran the full Reuters account prominently in its international section (10/18/99). So did the Times of India, the Sydney Morning Herald and the Irish Times (all 10/18/99). The prominent Danish daily Politiken, which collaborated with the Observer on the investigation, was on strike, but ran the story on its website.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1766

[Behind the Aegis]

5. My skin crawls, but...

...I agree with Bush. Syria should have protected the embassies. This bullshit about burning down embassies over fucking cartoons is beyond the pale! They have ever right to be outraged over the cartoons, but to resort to violence is beyond vile.

[Erika]

6. You do not insult a Holy Prophet without outrage

You need to do a study on the depth that fanatic Muslims have concerning their religion. It's much like Falwell or Robertson. You don't think Pat wouldn't be calling for the annihilation of Muslims if they mocked Jesus in the same way? The Danes were totally reckless.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Outrage is one thing...waton destruction is another.

I remember all the furvor about the "Piss Christ." What I don't remember is fundementalist Christians burning museums to the ground.

There is NO justification for what happened in Syria!

[Erika]

9. Syria is not the U.S. They react according to their emotions

Attacking a holy prophet of another religion is stupid and insane. If the Muslims had made similar cartoons about Christ, yes, I believe the right wing here would burn down the embassies.

There are lines that should never be crossed. Religion is one of them.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I didn't say Syria is the US.

However, the are obliged to protect foreign embassies. And, whereas the cartoons may have been in poor taste, even bigoted, it doesn't excuse violence, ever!

The only line that shouldn't be crossed is violence.

[Erika]

17. You insult a Holy Prophet of another religion

and you better learn to expect violence.

Please show me any Muslim who insulted or mocked Jesus?

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I think you are just plain wrong on this.

Muslims would insult Jesus because he is considered a Holy Prophet (#6). However, I don't remember this type of reaction to the "Piss Christ" display from the Muslim world.

Your assertion of "insult a Holy Prophet of another religion and you better learn to expect violence" is ludicrous, at best. I don't recall roving bands of rioters when the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas in Afghanistan. I don't recall threats of beheadings when "Corpus Christi" (Jesus as a gay man) was on stage. No, what I see here is, "if you insult us, we will kill you!" That is not a rational response, at all! Your statement reminds me of people who say, "gays should expect to get the shit kicked out of them if they display affection in public."

Drawing offensive and bigoted cartoons is not, nor should it be, a call to violence and mayhem!

[AngryAmish]

47. Are Muslim folks children?

Do they lack reason?

Are they not civilized?

All of the previous statements are false. There are norms worldwide. One of those norms is that collective punishment is not allowed. There are differences between governments and the people of nations. I am no more allowed to punch a Saudi in the nose because of 9/11 than these loons are allowed to burn the Danish embassy.

Also, burning of an embassy is an act of war. Why didn't the police state of Syria stop this. Because it was not in their interest.

[Igel]

51. I find that Muslims routinely mock Jesus and

insult Xians. And mock Moses and insult Jews. Many hundreds of thousands of Muslims mock Jesus, as Xians conceive him, on a weekly basis. Such insults are commonplace.

And yet the very discussion of this is considered intolerant, and therefore you're ignorant of it. Because, you see, they don't consider it mockery, so we must subscribe to a fiction lest we be tempted to say they're offensive. Is it insulting to say that Muhammed was, if he actually lived, nothing more than a petty heretic who created a pastiche religion because he had an inferiority crisis, and was seduced by the idea of lots of booty and dominance for his obscure Arab tribe? Is that allowed to be said? Should violence ensue?

Do you go up to a Christian and say his religion is inferior? Jesus wasn't crucified, isn't the Son of God, wasn't resurrected, didn't provide forgiveness by the shedding of his blood, and does not sit at the right hand of the Father, ready to judge the living and the dead. The traditional Xian teaching of Jesus is considered blasphemy and wrong, lies, and frequently cannot be disseminated in Islamic societies: it's tolerated, as long as no Muslim ever has to see it, with conversion from Xianity being a positive virtue. Conversions even get proudly announced, just as at a podunk fundamentalist Xian church: So-and-so has repented from the error of Catholicism and has found the light, praised be God. Should such a thing be allowed to be said? Should violence ensue?

Because these kinds of statements can be disseminated by radio, tv, and the print media. It's not rude: it's simply true, a given, part of traditional teaching about Xianity and Jesus, denying the Xian version and affirming the Muslim Isa. For that reason, apostasy laws say that converting to the inferior religion is punishable by death. Jordan. Egypt. These aren't usually considered extremist countries. Therefore a Christian man cannot marry a Muslim woman, any more than a Jewish man can marry a Christian woman: the superior must not submit to the inferior. It's standard fare, to insult Christianity and Christ, to mock him--as far as believing Christians go. They're tolerated as revealed religions. For one of them to tolerate the superior ... well, that's just ludicrous. And yet that's precisely what we must affirm--not on religious grounds, but in terms of our own values--in order to not submit on their terms.

Tolerance means not acting when offended by practices you find wrong, but which are legal. It does not mean conforming to another's belief system. It does not demand compliance to one's own dogma. Tolerance that can only go one way is called dictatorship and fascism, whether it's Xians requiring that tolerance for their views means they must never be offended by those of different beliefs, or Muslims dictating that non-Muslims must tolerate their views by submitting outwardly to their norms.

Even the utterance "Allahu akbar" is openly offensive and derogatory to those that do not consider the Muslim god and Christian god (or even Jewish god) to be the same--after all, they have radically different descriptions. And yet we can spazz out when a US military officer dares to say, in uniform, that *his* God is akbar. And many Muslims find it offensive: thus saying they find the two gods distinct. But, of course, they should be offended: the obviously inferior is saying it's superior. The uppity xxxxxxx need to remember their place.

One should not given unnecessary offense. But when one small intolerant subgroup tries to assert supremacy, that is, in and of itself, deeply offensive, and very dangerous.

[genie_weenie]

55. how about the Danish flag being burned

that flag has a cross on it...

[Lasher]

27. Oops, did I stumble into the I/P forum again?

Have you seen the cover of this month's Rolling Stone?

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/9183008/kanye_west_world

Last I heard, their headquarters had not yet been burned by Christian fundamentalists.

I know there's some Muslims who have decided that the whole world has to walk on eggshells when it comes to some issues concerning their beliefs. I am one part of the world that has not bought into this notion. If I decide to draw a picture of Muhammad, I will. That would not make it understandable for anybody to burn my house.

[tn-guy]

20. That sort of thinking is from fantasy-land

".....If the Muslims had made similar cartoons about Christ, yes, I believe the right wing here would burn down the embassies."

I'm sorry but that sort of thinking barely deserves the title of "thought". I can recall the reaction to the "Piss Christ" and the dung covered portrait of the Virgin Mary from several years ago and yet, I fail to remember anyone rioting in the streets, or burning a museum, or kidnapping anyone with threats of violence.

Perhaps this is the wrong place to say this but I'm getting a little tired of the "moral equivalencers" who want to maintain that right-wing Christians in the U.S. are no different from Muslim fanatics. I'll be willing to consider them equivalent when the 700 club starts featuring weekly beheadings or I see a bunch of masked Christians burn down an embassy but until then it would be helpful to keep discussion in the realm of reality.

I said it on a different thread but it bears repeating here. In the U.S. the Christian fanatics who resort to violence are on the extreme fringe of society and will find almost no one who will defend them. Violent Muslim fanatics are well within the mainstream of society in much of the Muslim world and finding someone there who will condemn them (without also condemning Israel and the U.S.) is an impossible task.

[Erika]

21. Show me any Muslim who has issued a cartoon on Christ n/t

[QC]

28. There was one from an Iranian paper posted here yesterday.

I would search for it but I don't have time. I've gotta go burn something down immediately, since, according to your reasoning, any and all acts of violence are justified when done in response to someone insulting someone else's "Holy Prophet."

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. The difference...

...there have been no burning embassies in Gaza or Indonesia, but protest rallies and calls for boycotts (which is fine by me).

So, don't tell me or presume to know what my agenda is.

As for attacks on individuals in those other areas, I have not read that. I have only seen protests and calls for boycotts.

[Posteritatis]

14. "The Danes" did not do this. (n/t)

[Erika]

22. Danish publishers did

and the govt took their time in reacting.

I guess I am surprised at Europe and here in not acknowledging the precious status Islam holds for its prophet.

Shame on their naivety and stupidity.

[Posteritatis]

33. Well, that's a start

Danish publishers did

Yes. Danish publishers did. A small subset of Danish publishers, in fact. Not "the Danes," which is that broad, frankly bigoted brush that you're flinging about. I mean, last I heard Danish publishers are a rather small subset of the 5.4 million Danes in Denmark, and the publishers actually involved in this are a small subset of those.

I know it feels good to pack up the moral outrage and indignation and try to tar as many people as possible, but it just doesn't hold water in reality.

and the govt took their time in reacting.

Well, yeah. It wasn't really their position to until things got escalated to insane levels by the massive overreaction (I use and insist on that word deliberately) abroad. Nations don't owe one another official apologies for relatively inconsequential acts not done in their name. They can lean on the parties which did offer offense to apologize or explain their statements, but even that's limited.

Unless, of course, you believe that the government should either have control over, or be responsible for, the actions of the press.

So of course the Danish government took their time in reacting. It was none of their business until people started burning down their damn embassies as though that's an acceptable response to anything.

I guess I am surprised at Europe and here in not acknowledging the precious status Islam holds for its prophet.

You mean in a considerably less revered status, and quite deliberately so, than Christians hold Jesus? If you think the status of the two in their respective religions are anywhere near equal, you really need to talk to at least one Muslim.

Shame on their naivety and stupidity.

And from such a promising start, we return full circle to Everybody Is Stupid Except Me.

Pity.

[genie_weenie]

56. That's right and according

to the Holy Koran, the violence brought forth upon those KAFIRS is entirely their fault. NExt thing you know Danes will want to have *new* Churches built in Syria! An affront since everyone knows any land that becomes Muslim belongs to Islam forever and ever...

[reprobate]

32. You point out only the danger of ALL religions.

To defend violence in the name of religion is a time tested and historic activity. It negates all of the killing and destruction done in the name of one god or another, and especially the monotheistic religions.

It's like children taunting each other that "My daddy can beat up your daddy". It's also the kind of attitude that could end up killing us all if we aren't really careful. We'll all be teetering on the edge of oblivion until we accept the fact that reason, not superstition is what will save us.

[Igel]

50. You do not impose your beliefs on another

nation and its culture in the name of peace and tolerance, and then even complain and whine when they get pissed off. Much less threaten death and burn buildings: Remember that Islam may have the word for 'peace' at it's root, but then again so does "pacification".

If I go to Egypt, I don't expect them to suddenly abide by canon law. To do so is to insult them, and more arrogant and selfish than words can express. Only hateful pigs do such things--and I defame pigs. If the response is to intimidate the host culture, it's even worse, and I've (IMHO) openly mocked my God and faith, relabelling intolerance and hate "tolerance and virtue."

When you gets imams and Muslims making a standing joke out of Muhammed and reviling Allah on a pretty consistent basis, some minor sarcasm from a few non-believers is trivial. To make a major incident out of it adds, to blasphemy and mockery, hypocrisy.

I'm beginning to think that Islam is like Xianity. There may be a few hundred Muslims on earth--like there may be a few hundred Xians--but that's being naively generous and probably giving them far more benefit of the doubt than they deserve.

[CJCRANE]

40. Agreed.

On the face of it, Bush was right to criticise the cartoonists and also right to hold the Syrians to account.

[jeffrey_X]

59. It's the only way groups like this are heard....

Similar to the riots of the 50's, 60's and 70's here in America. It's no excuse, but it's the only avenue minority groups have if they really want their voice heard.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Jesus was a pedophile, here is a cartoon depicting that!

How would you feel if the shoe had been on the other foot and cartoons offensive to Christians had been published!

Now you know why all Muslims across the world are incensed when cartoons offensive to their religion are published by shortsighted Europeans. It is not just the radicals in the Middle East that are upset, there were riots in Indonesia too.

As to the US accusing Syria of not protecting the embassies, this is nothing more than neocon cheap exploitation. The Bush dictatorship has no credibility left!

On edit:

Muslims and gays are the only people that can be bashed and ridiculed with impunity in America.

[Erika]

18. Agreed. Condi & Karen Hughes attempt to portray us

positively to the Arab world has been an utter disaster.

My green eyes come from my Danish immigrant grandmother but I am totally ashamed of the Danes today.

[KDLarsen]

38. Excuse me?

You're ashamed of me, because...? I didn't draw any cartoons, I don't subscribe to Jyllands-Posten (I read my news online), and I certainly didn't burn any Qu'rans lately (which is apparently a Danish passtime). I do, however, confess to having voted for the Danish PM's party in the last election. Yet you have the gall to say you're ashamed of me.

[kryckis]

42. It must be a horrible burden...

... to be ashamed of a whole country of people. Especially when you don't even live there.

I could find all sorts of things to be ashamed of looking at all mankind (we all have so much in common afterall, not just eyes of any color), I just don't bother as that would mean I'm somehow responsible for all of the idiocy in the world - like for example the burning down of foreign embassies.

[kryckis]

41. You can't...

..really compare to a pedophile as no cartoon in the paper had that message. It was pretty much all about violence which I have to say they are proving us "shortsighted Europeans" right on.

Bush is right. Syria should have protected the embassies. They failed. Either they miscalculated the madness or they didn't wanna get on the wrong foot with the fanatics. Either way, they f*cked up.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Apparently the Lebanese also failed at protecting the Danish consulate

that was torched by an angry mob in Beirut today.

Where is the US condemnation of that attack? Where are the anti-Syrian neocons on Lebanon's failure to protect the Danish consulate?

The hypocrisy of the US and the supporters of Bush's imperial designs for the Middle East is evident for all to see.

[Igel]

52. Many have.

The bashing you're aware of is only the bashing you perceive.

For a few years, fundamentalist Xians in the US were all considered (by many) to be terrorists. Federal-building and abortion-clinic bombers. Intolerant foolish oafs. That's still true on DU, by and large. No "punity" was meted out to those saying these things.

There have been some truly offensive and blasphemous cartoons involving Christ, if you're a traditional believer. Many such utterances. In fact, many have come from Muslims. And yet they're tolerated: Islam is no longer denounced as a heresy, but as an alternative, an equal.

Muhammed kabir. Isa akbar.

[HuffleClaw]

12. "We will hold Syria responsible...

...for such violent demonstrations since they do not take place in that country without government knowledge and support,"

what complete crap is that? scotty needs to shut the hell up.

[Erika]

19. But he won't hold the Danish govt responsible?

for their blasphemy against Islam's Holy Prophet?

[QC]

29. The Danish government didn't blaspheme anyone's "Holy Prophet."

A newspaper published in Denmark did that.

Do you honestly think that governments should restrain newspapers from publishing anything that might offend some murderous fanatic somewhere? That wouldn't leave much to publish.

[RelativelyJones]

35. Sorry, "blasphemy " doesn't fly in the West

A newspaper in Denmark publishes some cartoons that are in poor taste and you do handstands to justify the burning down of their embassy. You make it sound like the Danish Prime Minister included them in a powerpoint presentation at the UN for G0d's sake.

[ShockediSay]

16. This guy blames US for not protecting against 9/11

"...in the face of warnings that violence was planned" by use of aircraft, "failure to provide protection ... is inexcusable .... Such violent demonstrations ... do not take place in {this} country without government knowledge and support," I said.

[Submariner]

30. As long as civilization continues to look to imaginary sky people

for deliverance, whether christian, muslim, or whatever, then this battle of "my god is better than your god" is bound to go on. So don't bother blaming governments for protection of embassies, get rid of the root of the problem, the false and silly teachings of priests, ministers, and mullahs.

[daleo]

31. The U.S. didn't protect much in Iraq

The Bush government is hardly in a position to talk. They didn't protect New Orleans either.

[0007]

34. Hmmmm. Is this a Pot meet Kettle thingie?

When will the people of the United States show their outrage on what Rumsfeld & Condi & junior do and say?

'Tis easy to see that the sights on set on Syria.

[pinniped]

36. Sorry, Asshole-Snotty-Scotty.

I don't think is a strong enough case to warrant an invasion.

I vote for Snotty Scotty to fly to Syria to quell the protestors.

[dave29]

37. Meanwhile, the Earth and the Sun continue orbiting the center

of the Milky Way - as it rushes in the direction of the Virgo Cluster of Galaxies.

[no_hypocrisy]

43. You mean like holding the Shah responsible for the "students"

taking over the American Embassy in Tehran in 1979?

[IndianaGreen]

44. Why doesn't the US condemn the Lebanese government as it did Syria's?

Looks like an angry mob just torched the Danish consulate in Beirut:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2087629

Hypocrites!

[enigma000]

49. Lebanon apologizes for Danish mission attack

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10705393/

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Riots and repercussions over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad continued around the world Monday, with new clashes in several countries and Lebanon apologizing to Denmark after thousands of rampaging Muslim demonstrators set fire to the building housing its diplomatic mission in Beirut.

[Sgent]

54. Gulp...

I agree with Bush.

Violating treaty's and lying to foriegn powers has been anathma for hundreds of years. If they don't want the embassy there -- Iran is certainly within their rights to tell them to leave.

That being said, hospitality is one of the greatest commandments of the nomadic religions (Judaism & Islam). Violating their oaths and words by destroying the embassies and threatening the people who they have gaurneteed their saftey is a major issue.

[Trevelyan]

57. Gore Vidal said the blowback from the torture, rape, humiliation and

murder of Iraqis and the other mostly innocent Arabs caught up in bush's dragnets would have a tremendous blowback, that there are 1 Billion Muslims and their anger is at more than the cartoon and has been building and I would not doubt that the CIA or DoD is financing the inflaming of the anger.

The French police said the way that the riots there spread from town to town that it was like "A Hidden Hand Was Directing It". The French police nearly arrested Henry Kissenger who is on the war criminals list years ago but he was warned and fled the country. The French published information on Americans having Mengeles and letting him go.

[Trevelyan]

58. The Fire This Time...nt