Marx rivals Einstein for Best German

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D2FE5D27-F9A3-4317-AF95-B17F2007AD8D.htm


Millions of German television viewers picked Karl Marx, Albert Einstein and Willy Brandt among the top 10 Best Germans of all time in a national call-in contest on Friday.

More than 1300 Germans were nominated for the competition to identify the 10 most important Germans, and a "top 100" list unveiled on Friday night contained a number of surprises. A winner will be selected from the 10 finalists in three weeks.

In a country long weighted down by guilt from World War Two and wary of idolising national heroes as a reaction to the ultra-national Nazi era, the Best German contest reflects a growing, if still modest, sense of German patriotism.

While sports heroes like Formula One champion Michael Schumacher, Wimbledon title winner Boris Becker, tennis queen Steffi Graf and football World Cup winner Franz Beckenbauer made it into the top 40, supermodel Claudia Schiffer and Nobel-prize winning author Guenter Grass weren't even among the first 100.
<snip>

[SonofRage]

1. in 1999...

Marx was named the millennium's 'greatest thinker' in a BBC online poll.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/461545.stm

[izzie]

2. Well Marx was a great thinker on society.

I am not saying he was right but he did think about these things in a new way.Bismarch also put in things in the Govt that was new.

[Pale_Rider]

15. Also Marx was a contributing journalist ...

... to the New York Daily Tribune.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/newspapers/new-york-tribune.htm

[rini]

22. IMO

Marx asked the right questions and found the right answers but the wrong solutions.

[SweetheartLikeYou]

3. Okay, so I'm chauvinistic:

I'm happy they are both Jews...and in Germany, no less...:wow: !

[rini]

18. ME TOO!!!

ROTFLMAO, two best Germans who would have gone up in smoke.

[Art_from_Ark]

4. What about Albert Schweitzer?

I'm not surprised that J.S.Bach was #2 on the list, or that Beethoven was #12, or that Martin Luther was in the Top 10. But certainly Schweitzer needs to be on that list somewhere. As do the Grimm Brothers, who made German folk stories like Snow White, Cinderella, and Little Red Riding Hood known all around the world.

[Kellanved]

7. #18 and #128

The complete list:
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/31/0,1872,2051839,00.html

[Art_from_Ark]

9. Kind of interesting that Anne Frank was on the list

Wasn't she Dutch?

And Mozart and Freud were Austrians, were they not?

[herthaner]

10. Anne Frank ...

...was born in Frankfurt/Main. In 1933 Anne, her sister and her parents moved to Amsterdam to flee the nazis.

You are right about Mozart and Freud, they were both from Austria.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi herthaner!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[herthaner]

36. Thank you!

*prost*

[rini]

21. makes me feel better about the sorry state of education

in our country.

[Kellanved]

31. Anne Frank was born in Germany

(see Herthaner's post)

Mozart is considered German (and Austrian) - he called himself "German", his father was German and Austria was part of the holy Roman Empire of German nations.


In the case of Freud :shrug: :he isn't included in the top100.

[DoNotRefill]

44. It was that tiny cocaine habit he developed....

that disqualified him. In case you didn't know it, Freud was a serious cokehead.

[JoFerret]

51. That is silly.

.

[DoNotRefill]

53. What's silly....

that he was a coke fiend, or that he was disqualified for it?

His cocaine habit is well known...apparently he thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.

[Kellanved]

57. Nope

He wasn't disqualified. He was one of the 300 possible choices - but in his case there is hardly a way to claim that he was German.

Apparently the polled people didn't he was that important (although quite a few people on the list are way less significant; especially as Germany's worst 10 singers seem to be included in the top100)

[Jackpine Radical]

11. The fairy tales are the smallest part of what the Grimms did.

Jacob Grimm's 4-volume Teutonic Mythology is one of the most brilliant and exhaustive works of cultural and linguistic scholarship of all time. Get hold of the Stallybrass English translation some time and you'll quickly see what I mean. But be prepared to read at least a couple of dozen languages, from classical Greek to Lithuanian and Old Norse if you really want to understand every word in it.

[rini]

19. They were great

scholars and wonderful storytellers.

[leesa]

5. I think GW Bush is launching us into an era of world-wide socialism

with his abusive capitalism. After the smoke clears, if any of us are still alive, this might be a good thing.

[JanMichael]

12. Ding ding ding!

My thoughts exactly.

[Matilda]

47. Kick!

[rini]

23. after the smoke clears

will there be a habitat to live in and people to start all over?

[bleedingheart]

43. I have the same feeling...the knee jerk reaction to Bush will

be a socialist movement.

[Kellanved]

6. I don't understand Kohl

He wrecked the German Economy, and did everything to stop the reunification (called Gorbatchev "Goebbels"). That it happened anyway is the accomplishment of the east German people, Bush and Gorbatchev.

After the reunification he created corruption to an extend formerly unknown in Germany (and there is evidence that he took money himself - but no prosecutor wants to touch it).

The other problem with the list: they allowed the present collection of one-hit-wonders on it. Nobody will know these people in a few years.

[Snellius]

8. Al Jazeera doesn't mention they're also both Jewish

Marx, Freud, and Einstein are the giants of modern intellectual history.

[sujan]

13. wasn't Marx raised as Christian?

[rini]

32. If memory serves (and it may not)

the family converted when he was a teenager but he was an atheist.

[Mikimouse]

14. Since we are primarily talking about Germans,

you should probably include Max Weber in the mix as well.

[rini]

24. another Jew, the father of sociology

[SweetheartLikeYou]

16. I wonder why not.

:eyes:

[rini]

20. I wonder why not?

[Jim Sagle]

17. What amazes me about this whole loathsome discussion is

how no one mentions that Karl Marx's ideas were responsible for the butchery of 100 million people.

[rini]

26. I beg to differ

His ideas were not the problem, the problem occurred because people are not altruistic and turned communism (which is BTW unworkable) into another Czarist state.

sorry, I hit two things and..........

[Jim Sagle]

27. So we agree.

[rini]

30. We agree that

commmunism killed millions of people as represented by the soviets.

[ikojo]

49. If Karl Marx is blamed for the deaths attributed to

communism, does that mean we can hold Jesus responsible for the deaths of all the people, throughout history, who have died in wars meant to show the "heathen" how much Christians love them?

The Crusades
Inquisition
Pogroms
Holocaust
Iraq

[pezcore64]

28. ...

I differ too....

Marx cant be responsible for the people who took his idea and perverted it to suit them and make themselves powerful.


Marx was a brilliant thinker.

[DoNotRefill]

45. Hmmm....did ANY government that implemented a communist state...

NOT butcher it's people?

I'm thinking....

USSR: Butchered.
China: Butchered.
Romania: Butchered.
Poland: Butchered.
Czechoslavakia: Butchered.
Kampuchea/Cambodia: Butchered.
Viet Nam: Butchered.
Ost Deutschland: Butchered.
Soviet Afghanistan: Butchered.

Gee...can anybody think of a communist/marxist government that did NOT butcher it's own people?

Nah....it couldn't be the ideals behind that form of government that led to the butchering....it's just that ALL of their LEADERS were uniformly evil, right?

[TrueStory]

60. After the 1st World War Germany and Hungary

becamed communists as well. They didn't butchered their own people. However the "Democratic" "Freedom-Loving" countries sent troops to overthrow the Communist governments because this was a "bad" example. The foreign troops succeded in Germany and Hungary, but failed in Russia (SovieUnion), because Russia is a very big country and meanwhile they learned the lesson: only the Paranoid Communism can survive.

Conclusion: yes, the Communist systems butchered their own people, but the "Democratic", "Freedom-Loving" nations played an active role in this.

[rini]

29. I beg to differ

His ideas (which BTW, are unworkable) were not the problem, the problem was the the people who took his ideas (or said they did) and turned them into a new "Czarist" totalitarian regime. They substituted the politbeaureu (sp) for the Czar and nobles, killed millions inorder to "cleans" capitalism (which BTW never really existed in Czarist Russia) and created a new group of serfs. Communism was never practiced as Marx forsaw it.

[Desperadoe]

33. That would be like

saying that Jefferson was responsible for the corruption and criminality in the pResident's government. If it wouldn't have been for that damn Jefferson and Adams and Tom Paine we wouldn't be in this mess in Iraq.....pretty stupid statement if you ask me.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

35. Or saying Christ was responsible for the Salem Witch Trials, The Crusades,

the Holocost, The Bush Wars, Jonestown Massacre, etc.

[TrueStory]

34. and in the name of Jesus have been comitted a lot of attrocities,

but I hope you don't think Jesus is responsible in any way - just because his ideas have been perverted by some jerks.

[JoFerret]

52. That is rather like saying Jesus

caused the crusades and the holocaust.(Not to mention Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their truly loathsome ilk.)

[Dirk39]

54. What amazes me even more is

that noone claimed Adam Smith being responsible for two world wars, the Nazis, and more people dying every year than during WWII. Free trade was a nice idea, it just didn't work!
Don't get me wrong, I admire Adam Smith, but I just tried to think inside your head.
Hello from Germoney,
Dirk

[suegeo]

37. The dude who invented the printing press

Gutenberg? I thought he was a german, and the printing press was pretty rad. Without that, mr. einstien might not have even HAD books.

[Kellanved]

38. you can find the complete list here

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/mediathek/0,1903,FL-2000263,00.html

The placements of the top10 are not yet final.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

40. The invention of the printing press is, IMHO, the most important human

invention since the wheel.

It was the true beginning of the "information age."

[rman]

59. then the internet is a good 3rd

printing press and related distribution is expensive and thus easily controlled by those with the most money.
it worked really well in the beginning, until the elite gained control of it.
internet is far less easy to control.

[JackSwift]

39. What about Beethoven?

As far as Einstein goes, he was an American after having fled Germany because of the most famous German of all time, Austrian Adolf Hitler.

[NNadir]

41. Except Einstein wasn't German...

He was Swiss. He went to work in Germany but of course was forced to leave in 1933, whereupon he came to the United States and became a naturalized American Citizen.

Really, though, Einstein was primarily a citizen of the world.

The Germans of course had plenty of great physicists, many of course who were Jews.

The Greatest German Physicists were Heisenberg and Planck, IMO, though Planck was a better human being. Planck's son was executed by the Nazis in 1944 for being part of the plot to kill Hitler. Planck himself had the courage to confront Hitler directly about the persecution of Jewish scientists.

Heisenberg on the other hand did war research for the Nazis, a subject of much dispute.

[herthaner]

42. Einstein was german

He was born im Ulm and lived in his youth in Munich. He "only" studied in Switzerland.

But I agree with you when you are saying that Einstein was a citizen of the world.

[JackSwift]

55. He was a great man

A great and truly original and revolutionary thinker. And an advocate for peace and understanding. He wasn't perfect, he wasn't very faithful to his wife, and he later came to regret pressing for developing the atom bomb, but on the whole, a man worthy of respect.

[David Zephyr]

46. Sweet.

Thanks for this story, Billy_Pilgrim! :hi:

[kskiska]

48. Poll Shows 42% of Russians Would Support the Bolsheviks

If the Russia's October 1917 Revolution were to happen again today, 42 percent of Russians would actively support the Bolsheviks or "cooperate with them in some way," 27 percent of the respondents would wait out the time and not get involved, 16 percent would leave the country and 10 percent of those asked would fight against them, the opinion poll taken on October 24-28 by the National Public Opinion Studies Center VTsIOM found.

Answering the question about the revolution that brought the Communist Party to power, 32 percent of the 1,600 interviewed men and women said that it pushed the country's economic development, while 19 percent believe that it started a new era in the Russian history. 13 percent of the respondents think the revolution was a catastrophe and 16 percent were undecided. The margin of error is 3.4 per cent, the survey takers said.

The sociologists also pointed out that supporters of the United Russia party tended to be reserved and preferred to 'wait and not get involved.' The communists more often said they would actively support the Bolsheviks…

more…
http://vn.vladnews.ru/News/upd6_1.HTM

[Dirk39]

50. Not surprising...

the live expectancy rate in the former SU is 5 years lower than before they received the miracles of capitalism and "freedom" - and if you take away those few people, who profited from the change, it even looks worse.
Even in a country like Poland, which suffered so much under the SU occupation, about 50% of the people would prefer the old system.
The funny thing is that Marx pretty much feared Russia and the lack of a strong Bourgeoisie that would really fight for democratic rights.
Seems to me that after decades of a totalitarian non-democratic socialism, they have exchanged it with the most brutal and corrupt kind of capitalism, one could imagine. The "democrazy" there is a joke - as in all capitalist societies - but they don't even have a formal democrazy now.
I'm 100% convinced that Marx would not have supported Lenin like he supported the commune in Paris - although it didn't "fit into his theory". This was more about being a leftist, if oppressed and exploited people stand up, you have to support them. He would be more closely to Rosa Luxemburg, who was among the first communists, who saw the lack of democrazy in Russia.

In Germany, we have two big public TV stations, one - the ARD - is leaning more to the neoliberal right-wing SPD, the other - ZDF - is leaning more towards the right-wing neoliberal CDU. The ZDF has started this patriotic shit about big germans and I guess they were more than surprised about Marx being among the first ten and they try to make the best out of it:-)
Stupid peasant Schröder just reached Nr. 82, while Willy Brandt is among the first ten.
Marx, the best "German"?
>The proletarians of this world have no fatherland, no nation, no home!< (Karl Marx)
I'm amused,
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Dirk39]

56. One more amuzing thing about Marx is...

that even the hard-core market-extremists have become fans. Their own economic theories are justs so plain stupid... Even these idiots want to read a good book from time to time, that somehow is reaching the world we live in.
Free trade was a nice idea, it just didn't work...
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[rman]

58. free trade as we know it is a farce

trade is controlled by big corporations, so it's not free.
it's only free in so far that "the winner" is 'free' to "take all".