Iran paper plans Holocaust cartoons

[ECH1969]

Iran's largest selling newspaper has announced it is holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

"It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust," Farid Mortazavi, the graphics editor for Hamshahri newspaper, which is published by Tehran's conservative-run municipality, said on Monday.

Iran's fiercely anti-Israeli regime is supportive of so-called Holocaust revisionist historians, who maintain the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as well as other groups during World War II has been either invented or exaggerated.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran's hardline president, prompted international anger when he dismissed the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as a "myth" used to justify the creation of Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCE073DD-7F1B-4714-95F0-DD1F354F1D9A.htm

[Taxloss]

1. Ooooh, that'll calm things down.

Nice to see someone taking a responsible approach!

[Karenina]

58. The president of Iran is...

Oh, never mind. I'd just be repeating what I've heard on the street from Iranians who DO NOT BELIEVE he was "legitimately elected." He sure does serve the PNAC forces well, though eh?

[SKKY]

94. The President of Iran is...

...a puppet for the Mullahs who are really running the show.

[girl gone mad]

2. disgusting. n/t

[wordpix2]

118. that is the word. what rock did this guy crawl out from?

[YOY]

3. If the UN were a sitcom then Iran would truly be the wacky neighbor

and we'd be the idiotic writer dumbing things down for those with a below 80 IQ.

[BlueEyedSon]

4. That's not fair, they should pick on Christians.

[apnu]

48. it depends on perspective

I get the impression that the isolationist and the jihadists of the ME don't different much between Jews, Christians, Israel, US and 'the west.' I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like. We Americans are just as guilty. The majority of us can't tell the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq.

[bloom]

61. Go to the site of the newspaper that started this

and see what symbol is represented there:

http://www.jp.dk/

[Behind the Aegis]

64. And?

[bloom]

68. Usually the "Star of David" means something to people.

Maybe you just use it for fun. :shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

69. And maybe it is not a Magen David, but simply a star?

:shrug:

[bloom]

72. That doesn't seem very likely to me in that context

a newpaper would have to be aware of symbolism.

Of course - this paper, Morgenavisen Jyllands Posten, has shown itself to be clueless so far....

[Colorado Blue]

87. You realize you are speaking of the largest daily in Denmark?

Back in the day it was somewhat proNazi, according to Wikipedia, but today that isn't the case; the paper considers itself classically liberal.

Also, you should be aware that the 6-pointed star is also a prominent Buddhist symbol, among other things. Assuming a scribbled 6-pointed star is a Mogen David is a big leap.

[Mysse1978]

88. the "star".

(first of all, sorry about my bad english, I´m better in danish ;o))

Back in the old days, when I was a kid, the star was actually a sun, and in commercials on tv it is always shown as one rising in the horizon..

Morgen = morning
Avis= newspaper

It´s simple actually.

/Maya

[Colorado Blue]

90. Thank you!

Ah - the voice of reason and also somebody who can translate:)

[Mysse1978]

96. LINK (see the cartoons)

I do my best... :)

The news here are all about these cartoons and the problems it has created, and I wanted to find out what people "outside Denmark" was talking about, or if it only was big news here - due the size of our country.

Btw. For those who have not seen the cartoons thay can be found on this (ridiculous/stupid) site:

http;//www.danishmuhammedcartoons.com

PLEASE do NOT think anything else than it being a protest to the self-cencorship (?) and a comment from the right-wing in this country, who has the freedom to speek as well as anyone else. It is NOT (and I repeat NOT!!!) an expression on behalf of all danes.

/Maya (still bad in English)

[Colorado Blue]

142. Thanks again!

Interesting side-note on websites:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2616&ncid=2616&e=3&u=/nm/20060208/wr_nm/religion_cartoons_websites_dc_1

"STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Suspected Muslim hackers have broken into around 600 Danish Web sites to post threats and protest against satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, an Internet monitoring group said on Wednesday.

If pages outside Denmark, where the cartoons first appeared, were included, then the hack attacks numbered around 1,000, the Zone-H Web site, www.zone-h.org, said. Zone-H tracks attacks on Web sites and listed the sites which had been hacked.

"Danish, you'r D3ad," one page said in garbled English.

The page had been added to a Web site run by photographer Thomas Jorgensen and below was a photo of a mannequin doll painted in the Danish flag and hanging from its neck."

snip

The Wikipedia article on this topic has also been vandalized and has had to be locked.

[BlueEyedSon]

92. I'm sorry, I meant "Christmas"

[FlaGranny]

5. And Jews,

and all other Holocaust victimes will NOT burn and riot all over the world, will they?

[Coastie for Truth]

99. We are looking to find a Queen Esther to seduce the Mullahs.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike Daniels]

10. You know, when the Judeo/Christians start threatening the lives

of the editors of those papers and burning down Middle Eastern Embassies then perhaps you'll have a point regarding "hypocrisy".

[The Stranger]

16. How about if they settle for invading their countries, torturing and

murdering their citizens, and stealing their oil and only wealth?

That is quite a threat, and it issues from the Maladministration every day.

[Colorado Blue]

39. Excuse me but what does this have to do with the victims

of the Holocaust?

[iverglas]

46. my goodness gracious me

What does that have to do with the victims of the Holocaust?

Why, I've been asking all this time what terror bombings have to do with the huge vast overwhelming majority of Muslims in Europe or anywhere else ...

The actions of a tiny minority justify the vilification of unrelated people in one case, but not in the other?

I say in neither, myself. But that's just moi.

[Colorado Blue]

56. Actually, I think that demonization is demonization. It doesn't

matter who the victim is.

However, there is something all too familiar about the old pattern: a non-Jew offends a non-Jew, so they go out and hang the Jew.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. The Jewish connection?

You base your assumption on the star? Perhaps it is just a decoration. Do you have anything more substantial?

[bloom]

73. Why would you assume

that a newspaper that uses the Star of David as their symbol would be something other than Jewish?


It's not like Jews don't live in Denmark or something.


If a newspaper used a Muslim symbol - I would assume it was Islamic unless I had a reason to believe otherwise.


And here you are with your symbol - the one protesting. Don't you use it for a reason? Besides it being a decoration?

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Why assume?

Because I have seen may six-pointed stars used in the States that had nothing to do with Jews or Judaism. By your reasoning, had the 'dot over the i' been a 5 pointed star, it could possibly be a Muslim source (seeing as the 5-pointed star is also a symbol in Islam).

The first assumption was made by you.

[bloom]

97. the poster in #56

was assuming it was non-Jews that started this.

As far as I know - we don't know that. Even if they do just use the "Star of David" just for fun.

[Colorado Blue]

82. WHOA. Here is a Wiki-link featuring information about this

paper, called in English the Jutlands Post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THIS IS A JEWISH PAPER? None. I think you're leaping to conclusions, based on a scribble. This is in fact the largest daily in Denmark and you are proclaiming now that its opinions and editorial and reporting policy, are based on the fact that it is JEWISH? This is, in and of itself, an antisemitic slur.

Furthermore, even if an owner - it appears to be owned by a corporation - so even if a member of that corporation or even a stockholder, were Jewish - that doesn't mean the paper is JEWISH, does it. Also, you should note that the paper considers itself "liberal", in the classical sense.

Moreover, many sheriff's departments use six-pointed stars as symbols, here in the US. Are they Jewish? Or what?

Here is an article about Danish newspapers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4059213.stm

More information:

http://bibelen.blogspot.com/2006/01/drawings-of-mohammed.html

The cartoons themselves were the result of fear that any offense to Islamist sensibilities will result in death threats and violence - which is, in fact, what has happened. In context with the death of Theo van Gogh, various beheadings, threats and fatwas against art, literature or anything else considered "blasphemous", this is a very serious concern for any free society.

[jarjarbinksisgod]

104. but it is a Jewish newspaper...

in fact, I saw it wearing a yarmulke once.

[clspector]

112. ahahahah

ty so much for deflating the most insipid post on this thread.

[AngryAmish]

131. Was it eating Chinese?

[Colorado Blue]

143. LOL!

Thank you:)

[Colorado Blue]

91. Please see post #88.

It is a SUN.

[Dorian Gray]

122. Since when are Holocaust survivors

murdering their citizens, stealing their oil and only wealth? That's just silly. This has nothing to do with the war. It has everything to do with thousands of years of irrational hatred.

[genie_weenie]

44. Well, stated!

[unschooler]

11. "questions Zionist thinking"??

There's a, um, bit of difference between questioning Zionist thinking (which is what virtually all Europeans do every day) and denying the Holocaust.

[meti57b]

47. There is no such thing as a "Judeo/Christian" unless you are talking about

a convert of some sort.

[Coastie for Truth]

100. Or my Irish/Jewish grand kids

[meti57b]

108. Good point!!!

I do, though, reject the idea that Christianity and Judaism are similar and can be put in the same category. Christianity borrowed from Judaism but the beliefs of each are so different from the other, the two religions cannot be put in the same category or summarized in two words with a slash/dash. IMO

I can still clearly recall in public school 6th grade, the teacher telling the class that Christianity began as Judaism but the Jews just never fully evolved into the (higher-level) Christianity. That still bugs me.

[zanne]

70. I agree, PetraPooh.

I think the fact that I'm not religious lets me see these things a bit more objectively than alot of people. I don't believe in any prophet or savior, so organized religions all seem pretty much the same to me. I believe in free speech, but religion makes that difficult, too. The only thing I can say is "What's good for the goose.......". These things, like the cartoons, are published because they're MEANT to offend. And I'm sure that the president of Iran's statement about denying the Holocaust was all about OFFENDING Jews. Muslims, Christians and Jews are ALL guilty of it.

[Ready4Change]

7. Ok.

I've no problem with that.

I think the whole damn world needs to grow a thicker skin.

[fryguy]

where's the connection?

The the Mohamed cartoons weren't printed by a Jewish/Israeli newspaper, but rather a Danish paper - so why is the response to publish cartoons about the Holocaust? Seems to me this is just an excuse (as if they've needed one in the past) for the publication of anti-Semitic content.

[YOY]

13. "the Jews are behind it all and the Christians are their puppets"

That's the (amazingly insane) connection.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Here is the connection...or so some would think...

Akhbar al-Khalij, January 29, 2006 (Bahrain)
As the Islamic world reacted with anger to caricatures of Muhammad in a Danish newspaper, this cartoon claimed the controversy was a result of “The Penetration of Zionism to Denmark.” The cheese, shaped like a Star of David, is labeled “Danish products.” The text on the far left reads, “Boycott it!”

Then, again....it could be because this is how some view us (Jews)...

[aquart]

120. i get it now.

when they do it, it ain't bigotry.

no wonder the international media is so utterly unimpressed by their arguments.

[bloom]

67. They were originally solicited and printed

by a "right-wing" Jewish/Danish paper.

http://www.jp.dk/


At least that's what it looks like to me. See for yourself. The "right-wing" part was volunteered by someone who is familiar with the paper....

I don't know Danish - but you have to wonder how anti-Muslim they might happen to be. Esp. now.

[MisterP]

117. presumably they're the "sides" in this, the Tenth, Crusade:

Bonzo, and later Colon Bowel, declared the Warren Terra a "crusade," with "Jews" and "Christians" (viz., neocons) vs. Muslims in general (and their dangerous, dangerous oil)

[unschooler]

8. Wonder how many Jews will suicide-bomb mosques in response?

Whatever.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[kineneb]

9. kinda shows how juvenile this whole thing is getting

So, ok, the cartoons were tacky. But a few of the Islamic world's press has some pretty tacky cartoons about Jews and Christians. So big, hairy deal. They are cartoons. I am not going to give a damn about a cartoon, no matter what the content. And those who do, show their ignorance. So, guys, have at. Remember, We Don't Care What You Put in Your Stupid Cartoons. Have fun.

[Fredda Weinberg]

18. The Nazis didn't think cartoons were juvenile

when they depicted Jews as rats

[lagavulin]

12. Perhaps all wars should be fought through cartoonists...?

Here in the U.S. we've got Gary Larson and Matt Groening...we would soooo rule!

On the serious side, great point made in this article:

Islamic Anger Against Cartoons Grows

"...And speaking in a news release, Zionist Organization of America National President Morton A. Klein said, "There is a deafening silence around the world about the constant incitement to hatred of Jews, Judaism and the Jewish state of Israel in the official government-controlled media of much of the Arab and Muslim worlds, especially in the societies that produce this venomous hate material. We have now witnessed the hypocrisy of how, on one hand, the Arab and Muslim worlds protest vociferously about a single series of offensive cartoon depictions of Mohammed, calling for action at the highest levels, threatening boycotts and demanding apologies yet, on the other hand, say nothing and do nothing about how their own societies are awash with Jew-hatred, including viciously anti-Semitic cartoons."

The ZOA news release cited examples of a number of anti-Semitic cartoons...."

[applegrove]

14. Great. Thanks Bush for teaching somewhat sane people to act like crazies.

Thanks for showing them "how fear is used".

[ScreamingWhisper]

19. an observation....

-----------------------------------------------------------
"...for teaching somewhat sane people to act like crazies."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Uhhhh??? Are you saying that those offended, throwing petrol
bombs, destroying property, and threatening retaliation toward
the entire Jewish/Christian nation, were turned "crazy" because
of a comic strip?

Methinks, if that is the case, sanity as described was a wee bit
shaky to begin with.

[applegrove]

21. No - I mean that governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, etc.

who were not previously known for the pyschopathic leaderships and fear games and whipping it up, now do.

It used to be only the psychopaths who acted like psychopaths. Now it is anyone who wants something just uses fears to whip up their people and "I'm crazy, crazy, crazy like a neocon or a fundie Islamist terrorist - watch me I'm crazy".

What I mean is that truthiness and Rovian foreign policy based on myth has opened a whole can of worms. Marketing. Wedgiing, stirring the religious types into a frenzy, etc.

Not pretty.

[Taxloss]

22. "not previously known for the pyschopathic leaderships and fear games ..."

Er, they've been known for that for decades. Salman Rushdie? Public executions? Secret police? Secret prisons? Widespread torture? Screaming hordes at the drop of a hat? These things all predate 2000, believe me.

[applegrove]

25. Yes. They have been ruthless. But they were not running the perpetual

campaign of myth that a Saddam Hussein or a Hitler or a Milosovich did. Now they seem to be. The campaign never ends.

The fear inside the heart of a secular arab has to be excercised constantly so it is a strong mussle.

That type of thing.

No - I was not saying that none of these leaders had ever violated human rights. Just that until now they were not using all arabs as a giant ant farm that must constantly be tended too - kina like the WH & big oil with the religious right.

[Taxloss]

26. Well, I must say I disagree.

Think of the "Death to America!" rhetoric that accompanied the fall of the Shah of Iran in 1979, and the anti-Western sentiment that surrounded the civil war in Lebanon. Or all the way back to Nasser's nationalisation of the Suez Canal in the 1950s. It really is not a new thing.

[applegrove]

27. Really? Riots and embassy burnings across the whole arab world?

[jseankil]

28. What's Bush have to do with that??

I'm not seeing the connection.

[applegrove]

32. He & the neocons have unleashed the practice of feeling & myth

on the world.

You have not noticed the fights Bush & the WH don't put out - if the fight might advance their cause?

Used to be leaders negotiated the end to disagreements and the like.

[applegrove]

35. And jumping the shark? Bush does that all the time. This week that danger

is China.

Well Iranian PM goes from cartoons to the holocaust.

No logical connection. But myth-makers never give a shit about that.

[jseankil]

51. I don't think Bush taught the world these tricks

they have been around since politics, pinning this on Bush is a little silly.

[applegrove]

54. I'm sorry. But as a big fat liar - soft power is no loger an option for

WH to use against anger exploited by Iran in youth.

If West came out publically against that the middle east would laugh their asses off.

[Taxloss]

30. Riots during the Salman Rushdie affair, yes.

And as for burning embassies, try this:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/iranian_embassy_siege/intro.stm

Anti-Western sentiment being exploited by Arab states is hardly new. (Although I would add that Iran is not an Arab state).

[applegrove]

31. Those were grievous events that hurt the local people. Think of it.

The shaw was king and torturing islamic dissidents. Iranian revolution was a revolution.

So too the invasion of Lebanon. And the strife caused in Lebanon by geopolitics and money from outside.

These were specific actions the west did to diminish and control certain arab/islamic places in time.

I am saying - giving the chance for a Brit kid to hold up a sign whose message were all written in the same hand-writing and come up with from where? While someone in Halifax, Nova Scotia gets to do the same thing. Well this is quite planned excercising of muscle. Sure - small slights like Mohammed's name being used in cartoon are used. To excercise the muscle. To have constant enemies. Yes - reminds us of fatwa against Rusdie. Perhaps those first Iranian leaders were sociopaths too.

[Taxloss]

33. The organisers of the London protest that some DUers think was faked

have been defending their action in the newspapers today. It was a genuine protest, the organisers are known. It's a group called al-Ghuruba. Even the student who dressed as a suicide bomber has been defending his actions in the paper - his name is Omar Khayam.

[applegrove]

37. Like we said - there was organization behind the protest. The political

arm of something - yes? Little fractal copies of Grover Norqhuests fax tree.

[Taxloss]

38. Oh, please.

You're saying the demonstrators are neocon provocateurs?

[applegrove]

41. No. I'm saying neocons are being copied around the world. And I

am saying "thanks Bush". Thanks for SHARING. Thanks for making the world a place of lies & myths and ant farming (where muscle of blind followers must be excercised). Where conflict is not stopped but used as a tool. Thanks to the neocons for studying psychopaths and coming up with the toolbag. Great! Thanks! Lovely!

[ScreamingWhisper]

45. Sorry, I'm still confused....

I was under the impression that the Shaw was a friend to the US (then Carter) Administration years ago, and at least
improved relations by releasing Islamic dissidents, including the Muslim leader Ayatollah Khomeini.
The Shaw was then assassinated by the same (Ayatollah Khomeini) radical islamic factions that operate today.

So, assassination is a good thing, in your opinion?

[applegrove]

52. No. But the Shaw was a tyrant. A strong man. You don't get to be king

of an oil rich country for 25 years if you are not up to no good.

Iranians did have a revolution. Bet the State Department, the CIA, the WH, the Pentagon would trade the shaw today for the Demcratically elected leader of Iran who came before the Shaw was parachuted in after the Iranian PM was ousted by the West.

Bet they would have gone the way of democracy if they had the choice.

People didn't live in a democracy. When you depose a leader who stops democracy it is called a revolution. Don't know about Shaw being assasinated. Don't like lots of what the Iranians have done. Including the hostages and sharia law. I don't think they are better than the shaw. But they have held elections. So anger at the West and puppet leaders was legit. And why Bush WH now runs around like a chicken with its head cut off "democracy, democracy at any cost, democracy, democracy". All the while using a toolbag more common to a sociopath than to a real democratically elected leader (who uses negotiation, leadership, compromize & vision) instead of ant-hills made up of muricans who buy into the oil industry funded Merican type of xtianity that is meant to teach hate for secular-humanists. By acting like the souless children psychopaths are and insisting that many arms of the GOP reach out in self affirming mirrors to the GOP power and elite control - Bush gives Iranian leader a free pass on using the same tools of myth-making and ant-farming. Kim can get away with it because he truly is a psychopath and that just means he needs to be boxed in and slapped around by a much larger China. But Iran and the islamists now can create myth and spin and nobody is going to investigate them or slap them back for lies - because that is all the WH house does - a the day is long.

Thank you!

The West has no legitimacy in scolding Iran. And so they are getting away with alot. Thanks for deligitimizing Wester foreign policy. It is all now a big joke. No legs to stand on. No soft power. (But neocons didn't like soft power anyway).

[daleo]

105. The Shah was never assasinated

He died of cancer while in exile, not long after the overthrow.

[applegrove]

115. Yeah - I wondered about that.

[daleo]

123. Just for the record, from the BBC

"1980 27 July - The exiled Shah dies of cancer in Egypt."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/country_profiles/806268.stm

[applegrove]

127. I thought he wasn't assasinated. But couldn't quite put my finger on

why I hesitated. Cancer yes - I remember that.

[iverglas]

144. damn, I almost missed this one

So, assassination is a good thing, in your opinion?

Raising the rhetoric to new heights.

Don't just ascribe things people never said to them (and then stick the basely cowardly question mark at the end of it, not even having the courage of one's own misrepresentations) -- now, invent total shit and ascribe approval of it to them.

I'm impressed.

[Colorado Blue]

40. Respectfully, I agree with Taxloss and also, if you go back

to the 20's, 30's, 40's in Mandate Palestine and the campaign to exterminate Israel, and the persecution and ethnic cleansing of virtually all the Jews in the Middle East after 1948, much bigotry, myth-making and xenophobia are in evidence.

Also, the portrayal of Christians and Jews in Islam isn't flattering. Although both faiths are considered "of the book", people who don't convert to Islam are apostate, infidel. Dhimmi in fact were "tolerated" for a price but only under certain humiliating conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

http://www.jimena.org/

[applegrove]

43. So when have we seen teenagers all over the West and Europe

and the middle east - all reacting to the same provocation with the same intensity.

Could naturally be the internet. But the fact that Islam's leaders (Iran today) don't seem to want to calm down anger - is very neocon to me.

[Colorado Blue]

55. You have a point and also about the internet, a point.

Although, I remember violent demonstrations from the 1950's, '60's, '70's, also.

I think however, what you are saying about the Bush Administration has some merit, in that people both here and abroad, seem to be polarizing, pulling away from the center, toward the violent extremes.

I think it's scary.

[applegrove]

60. Tribalism used to be something to be embarrassed about. Now it is

the norm. For leaders to encourage & procure.

[Colorado Blue]

79. Do you think this is a reaction against globalization, against

an increasing movement for people to integrate as the world, through communications and rapid travel, has "shrunk"?

[applegrove]

85. No - I think lies & dishonesty have been liffted into the realm of

acceptability as soft power goes. So - if the President of Iraq wants to kill two birds with one stone and talk next about anti-holocaust cartoons - jumping two sharks at a time - who is going to tell him to shut the fuck up and act like an adult? USA? Britain? UN?

Nope.

[Colorado Blue]

86. Soft power? Do you mean, as in media power, ability to

create dissension, propaganda, etc?

That's certainly be a feature of this cartoon thing. Apparently some extremely offensive cartoons, NOT part of the Danish package, were circulated - some say by Iran - in an attempt to ratchet up the discord and maybe even create an atmosphere of fear and even violence, possibly linked to Iran's nuclear aspirations.

[applegrove]

114. I've heard that too. Don't know. But, really, ratcheting it up is

acceptish (new word) in the West.

[aquart]

15. Excuse me? Danes are Jewish now?

Although King Christian did get all the Danes to wear the star armband.

At least, that's what my mommy told me.

[Colorado Blue]

42. Yes, indeed they did. Practically alone among European

nations, the Danes bravely stood up for their Jewish population.

[VirginiaDem]

77. Quick shot out for the Bulgarians who,

surrounded by other central and East European nations actively helping in the extermination of Jews, very proactively and effectively defended "their" Jews. I know you said "Practically alone" so this isn't a dispute. Just giving props where they're rarely given.

Edited for grammar.

[Colorado Blue]

80. Bravo. Thank you for pointing this out. Also - there were

many Europeans who risked their lives to save their neighbors - in Holland, Poland, Greece.

Bless them.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. No, but if you check out post #49...

...it might answer why this asshole is having is little contest.

[HippieCowgirl]

17. Hopefully, the rest of the world will take the high road...

...and collectively shrug their shoulders and say, "OK. So you printed some cartoons. Big deal" and then praise the Iranian paper for its support of freedom of speech and the press.

[Nebraska_Liberal]

34. Iranian freedom of speech!

Ha, thats pretty funny. At least censorship isnt that bad here, yet.

[Mizmoon]

20. Is that any different than daily business in the "arab" media?

I've seen plenty of examples over the last few days of anti-semetic cartoons published in the Arab world. There was one where a Jew dressed as the devil was controlling a puppet of Pope John Paul. I'm Catholic and frankly I don't give a shit about it. Whatever floats their boats.

[Yupster]

23. Seems a bit whacky to me

I would think holding a contest for cartons about Jesus would be a more sane reply, but whatever they want as long as it's non-violent and legal is fine with me.

What they'll find is their contest results will be met with a big yawn by the rest of the world.

Maybe that will be for the good.

[PATRICK]

24. Common ground with some Europeans

at least. I think in their anger they have picked an unfortunate target. In a cartoon war one must hurt one's actual enemies of the moment where it hurts. Most of those Euro-buffoons are probably closet anti-Semites too. Anger makes you do dumb things and missing the target while imitating the offenders is doubly off.

Maybe a picture of Bush and his Euro allies crucifying an Arab and the cross strikes oil to their loud praises and jubilation might be a more pertinent idea.

But once a hate fest gets going.... We already had anti-Semitism and intolerance of Muslims in Europe. And the usual in the ME. Someone should laugh them all down with the deepest scorn. Pen mightier than the sword? Well, it will be a quiet field of pens and swords and bones all lying together in still peace, all equal, all irrelevant and uselessly dead because what they all did was plain wrong and more dumb.

[dave29]

29. Little known fact:

Cartoonists are God's actual chosen people.

[SillyGoose]

36. The Arab press already publishes anti-semitic cartoons.

How is this new announcement an earth-shaking revelation on their part?

[THUNDER HANDS]

53. why can't we just have a conservative world war

where all the conservatives do the fighting and dying. I think that'd be a lot easier.

[Colorado Blue]

59. Hmmmmm:)

[Colorado Blue]

57. Meanwhile, in Tel Aviv, Muslims are free to protest.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/679387.html

Palestinians, Lebanese, people from all over the world are free to use the Ha'aretz feedback forum to say whatever they wish. Frequently Arabs use it to vilify Israel. Some fool the other day used the Israeli free press, via the Feedback Forum, to accuse Mossad of sinking the Egyptian ferry.

Do you think the small Iranian Jewish population, reduced to 25,000 people, will feel free to march on the President's office or publicly demonstrate against Holocaust cartoons?

[Tempest]

62. Danish newspaper rejected Jesus cartoon three years ago

But felt it appropriate to print the anti-Muslim cartoons.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html?gusrc=rss

[bloom]

74. It's easier when

the Muslims are a minority. That's what.

[Tempest]

84. They may be a minority in Denmark

But they are a majority in the world.

I bet newspaper didn't think about that.

[slackmaster]

128. Freedom of speech includes freedom to choose what not to say

And accountability for the results of what we choose to say, and what not to say.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

66. It's time to put the 10 and under crowd incharge of things.

They'll handle it with more maturity. :eyes:

[barb162]

129. Yeah they usually quiet down after a little nap

[GoddessOfGuinness]

132. You may be on to something there...

Time out for everybody!

[barb162]

133. LOL

[Marie26]

76. Lovely

And who would think Iran would do something like this? Didn't they just have a huge conference to deny the Holocaust occured? And even if it's a response to the cartoons, why is it targeting Jewish people? It's like absolutely everything becomes an excuse for anti-Semitism.

[Julius Civitatus]

78. Egypt publishes anti-semitic cartoons almost daily

It seems like they can dish it, but certainly can't take it.

[Tulum_Moon]

83. I can't believe there is a cartoon war going on!

A freaking cartoon war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"My cartoon is more offensive than yours", "mine will cause more riots". This is getting ridiculous!
And real people are dying! Buildings are burning over this. Somewhere there is a man sitting in a chair watching all this snickering! There has got to be something behind this. It is huge!

[pschoeb]

81. This from a country that executes Gays and rape victims

oh the irony it hurst to much

[Colorado Blue]

89. I don't get it.

Either Ahmadinejad is saying the Holocaust was a myth, or it was Europe's foul deed, and Israel should move to Europe as reparation. I guess he can't make up his mind whether or not it happened but either way it's pretty disgusting.

I worry about the 25,000 Jews still living in Iran. The community used to be much larger but tens of thousands split when the ayatollahs came to power.

Now, with this cartoon thing - G*d knows what will happen to them.

[Snivi Yllom]

93. the Iranian gov. is really working to build up world sympathy aren't they?

:sarcasm:

[SKKY]

95. Didn't we all see this coming???

[Coastie for Truth]

98. One of my Farsi friends (American PhD degree - house in suburbs)

jokingly said - "So, where is your Queen Esther and her Uncle Mordechai now that her Persian people need her?"

[fedsron2us]

101. Mad world

A right wing Danish newspaper which sympathised with Hitler and Mussolini in the 1930's publishes a set of cartoons lampooning the prophet Muhammad. Fury and riots engulf the Islamic world. Western democratic governments dither. The Jews get the blame. Fascists everywhere celebrate the advance of their cause.

[Redstone]

102. I'll bet we won't see Jews rioting and burning down embassies...

Redstone

[daleo]

103. Really, this is a conflict of taboos

The Muslim world has a taboo against representations of Mohamed, while the western world has a taboo against holocaust denial. Each culture is now poking a stick into the other's domain of taboos, and feigning surprise at the reaction.

I chose holocaust denial as an example of a western taboo because you can go to jail for it in plenty of countries. Most of our taboos are now of this sort (we also have racial taboos, as represented by the phrase "the n word"), rather than of the religious variety.

The taboos that develop in different societies are a result of their different circumstances, I think. The west's history of racism and anti-semitism has produced taboos against those behaviors, which are very socially divisive. The Muslim world's religious taboos probably serve the same function - maintaining cohesion across a very broad range of cultures.

There are people in the west that are prepared to go to war with Iran over their breaking of our taboos (the holocaust denial issue is the most obvious), the same as there are people in the Islamic world willing to go to war with the west over the breaking of their taboos.

Sometimes it seems like the world is heading for a precipice.

[VirginiaDem]

106. I agree and disagree

I think you're right that Iran and others are bringing up the Holocaust because they (wrongly I think) see a double standard in play, rather than because they're horribly anti-semitic and thus believe the world is run by Jews and therefore they believe they will get the strongest reaction by going after the Holocaust. Of course, Ahmadinejab and some unknown but probably significant percentage of Muslims worldwide believe exactly that about the Jews. Nonetheless, I think you've got the taboo part right.

I disagree that there "are people in the west that are prepared to go to war with Iran over their breaking of taboos". The west very well may wind up in a war with Iran but if it has anything to do with Ahmadinejab's Holocaust Denial it will be from the theory that his Holocaust Denial is a signal that he's a nutjob and therefore not rational in the policy prediction sense. It won't be because those in power are so offended that they need to fight a war against the taboo violators.

The key distinction between our taboo and theirs is clear--westerners don't respond to perceived insults through organized, (sometimes) sanctioned violence. Otherwise South Park, Life of Brian, etc., would be unavailable to the public and their creators would have been rubbed out long ago. The last I checked South Park is still on the air and John Cleese and Michael Palin (sp.?) are all practically national heroes in the UK. Hell, even book burnings are largely a thing of the past (albeit fairly recent).

[daleo]

109. The "he's a nutjob" argument is vital for pro-war people, though

I don't know that they believe it themselves, but they know it will bring plenty of people on board.

I don't want to sound like I am making a case for holocaust denial (I think it is absurd), but we do throw people in jail for it. Nobody goes willingly to jail, so it requires sanctioned violence to enforce the taboo.

I agree that we don't usually riot over breaking of taboos, particularly religious taboos. Abortion doctors have been murdered over the breaking of some peoples' religious taboos, though.

[bemildred]

110. Yes, exactly.

And in selecting the Holocaust to blaspheme a European taboo, their aim is quite precise. Religion won't really work with Europeans. Now in the USA you might still have a shot with something religious.

[clspector]

113. A taboo?!!!!???

>>The Muslim world has a taboo against representations of Mohamed, while the western world has a taboo against holocaust denial. Each culture is now poking a stick into the other's domain of taboos, and feigning surprise at the reaction.

I chose holocaust denial as an example of a western taboo because you can go to jail for it in plenty of countries. Most of our taboos are now of this sort (we also have racial taboos, as represented by the phrase "the n word"), rather than of the religious variety.<<



It's not a fucking taboo.

It's a stand against a fucking LIE.

GET IT?

Holocaust deniers are the worst kind of LIARS. Has the perversion of language in this country gone so far that to strongly condemn to VISCIOUS LIARS is now considered a cultural relic like not farting at the dinner table or wiping your nose on your sleeve.

I'm not willing to kill over it, but to call objecting to the pernicious lies of Holocaust deniers as a cultural taboo is beyond asinine.

[VirginiaDem]

116. Not to risk your ire but isn't it possible that both are true?

Yes, Holocaust Denial is a viscious lie that demands to be condemned so it's not a taboo in that sense. In the end I suppose I'm uneasily glad that we don't have the same restrictions against it that they done in Germany and other places but I can certainly see how they would legislate against it given everything. But there are other viscious lies that aren't singled out for special legislative condemnation so it is a taboo in that sense. It holds a special, high place in our hierarchy of what is not to be done and believed, which fairly well approximates the definition of cultural taboos.

That's how I took Daleo's post and I'm pretty far along the anti-semitism-is-a-big-hairy-problem spectrum myself.

[daleo]

125. Nobody said it was true (holocaust denial)

In fact, in my post I said holocaust denial was absurd.

The definition of a taboo is a proscribed behavior, either proscribed formally or informally. We don't normally throw people in jail for lying, even about history. For example, I could publish a pamphlet saying that no North American natives were killed by the U.S. Cavalry and nobody would think me anything but a crank. If I published a similar pamphlet saying that no Jews were killed by the Nazis, I would be thrown in jail in a number of western countries. That is what makes the latter a taboo by any reasonable sociological definition.

We haven't even punished Bush for his vicious lies to start a war that has killed tens of thousands, including tens of thousands of Americans.

Let me just reiterate that I don't personally have any use for holocaust denial. The fact that I feel the need to repeat this twice in a post on the subject is just further evidence that holocaust denial is a taboo in our societies.

[iverglas]

138. very interesting, and thank you

If I published a similar pamphlet saying that no Jews were killed by the Nazis, I would be thrown in jail in a number of western countries. That is what makes the latter a taboo by any reasonable sociological definition.

I'd just add that formal proscription isn't a necessary characteristic of a taboo. Holocaust denial may not be formally proscribed in the US, for instance, but informal sanctions will certainly be applied to anyone who engages in it. Shunning by peers, in the case of academics, and explicit public denunciation and condemnation of people who engage in it more publicly, come to mind. Exclusion from polite society in general also operates.

And the fact that these informal sanctions are *not* applied to anti-Muslim hate speech like these "cartoons" is a very large part of the problem.

Let me just reiterate that I don't personally have any use for holocaust denial. The fact that I feel the need to repeat this twice in a post on the subject is just further evidence that holocaust denial is a taboo in our societies.

Yeah, I know how you feel. The fact that I have been unable to denounce the racist "cartoons" without being accused of "defending violence" (on the part of those using the "cartoons" as a pretext for violence) and having to assert my abhorrence of such things lots more than once has struck me as equally bizarre.

[VirginiaDem]

139. How are the cartoons "racist"?

They're certainly not racist in the strict, traditional usage of the word. They don't claim that Arabs, Persians, et al, are inherently physically or mentally inferior or subhuman. I suppose you could make an indirect argument based on a very loose interpretation of the word "racism" that we are ignoring their complaints (and then rubbing it in) because we don't bother to understand them because we don't care because they are different. Whatever. I'm mostly just pissed off because they're telling me what I can and can't write/draw/say/download/discuss. But, hey, I'm that way.

It seems to me that at the heart of the rage is an opposition to depictions of Mohammed. That has been made clear over and over in interviews of the protestors/rioters/others. I think it's a stretch to say that reacting negatively to this is racist.

I was in grad school when the whole Rushdie controversy hit. At the time, the enraged Fatwa-ists had plenty of western supporters though over time I think society has agreed roughly that Rushdie was in the right. I expect that will happen here as well. We were called racists then as well, if memory serves; I don't remember it bothering me then, either.

[iverglas]

140. that's dandy

We were called racists then as well, if memory serves; I don't remember it bothering me then, either.

I wasn't calling you a racist. You own any major mass-circulation dailies in Europe?

It seems to me that at the heart of the rage is an opposition to depictions of Mohammed.

Well, you and your dozens of brethren and sistren hereabouts just keep on saying it to your heart's content. Don't be letting me interrupt. I'll still be hearing people with their hands over their ears going wah wah ... at best.

How are the cartoons "racist"?

Oh my, aren't we just all breathlessly innocent?

If you read this post of mine, I assume you can read other posts of mine, and posts by people like Karenina, and unfortunately other names escape me -- I'm not a regular in LBN and have read and appreciated posts on this topic by a lot of people I'm not acquainted with, who have been unwilling to sit in silence as this wave of happy "liberal" framing of the discourse as having nothing at all to do with anything but grand old USAmerican free speech. And really, none of us is under any obligation to say the same thing all over each time someone asks the same breathlessly innocent question.

Here, I'll be generous. Watch the videos linked to here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2089742&mesg_id=2089742

They don't claim that Arabs, Persians, et al, are inherently physically or mentally inferior or subhuman.

Oh?

I suppose you could make an indirect argument based on a very loose interpretation of the word "racism" that we are ignoring their complaints (and then rubbing it in) because we don't bother to understand them because we don't care because they are different.

I suppose you could claim to read the editorial "cartoons" in issue as being something other than hate speech directed at Muslims (and then quibble that the hatred is based on religious bigotry rather than the very obvious hatred of the different-culture, different-ethnicity, different-colour, different-language, different-costume, different-origin and yes, different-religion other that it plainly is based on, and that is quite reasonably referred to by the shorthand "racism"). I'm long past caring.

[VirginiaDem]

148. We'll have to disagree on this one

"They don't claim that Arabs, Persians, et al, are inherently physically or mentally inferior or subhuman.

Oh?"

How do the cartoons themselves do this? The most offensive of the cartoons seems to be Mohammed's Got a Bomb. If a Muslim cartoonist penned a cartoon depicting Jesus riding on a nuke, a la Slim Pickens, would that be racist? Would part of the argument being made be that Caucasians are physically or mentally inferior to non-Caucasians?

I understand that you were not calling me a racist but if the shoe fits... I don't think any of the cartoons were particularly good but I completely support the publication of them and would urge other newspapers to follow suit. Wouldn't this make me a racist by your definition? After all, I'm of a different religion (none), a different culture (US), a different ethnicity (cracker), a different color (cracker), a different language (English), a different costume (basic slacker).

[iverglas]

149. "if"

If a Muslim cartoonist penned a cartoon depicting Jesus riding on a nuke, a la Slim Pickens, would that be racist?

Isn't it telling that we have to make shit up in order to come up with an analogy?

If a Muslim cartoonist produced such an image, and the message conveyed were plainly that Christians revere an individual who is a committer of atrocities, and if that image were published in a place where Christians were mainly newcomers to the society who were mostly distinguishable by their skin colour and/or manner of dress and/or language and where the sociopolitical context was rife with scapegoating of Christians for social/economic problems and misrepresentations of their beliefs and calls for Christians to be expelled and/or to be compelled to abandon their cultural practices ... well, yup, I guess the publication of the "cartoon" would be (to use the convenient shorthand) racist.

Know of any such places and any such things occurring there?

Would part of the argument being made be that Caucasians are physically or mentally inferior to non-Caucasians?

Or, if we could stick to the point, would the message conveyed be that Christians/white Europeans support the commission of atrocities and are to blame for many of the society's woes?

I understand that you were not calling me a racist but if the shoe fits...

Well, you can buy your own shoes. If you want any I have on offer, the choice is yours.

I have no actual idea what size your feet are, but when you say:

I completely support the publication of them

-- which goes considerably farther than a statement of, say, opposition to prohibiting publication -- I'm seeing suspicious footprints.

[VirginiaDem]

150. Two points/objections and one point I grant

First, you've got a pretty good point about Mohammed's Got a Bomb. I would argue that your outline of why it's racist has little or nothing to do with the current rage against the cartoons but that's not your focus. It would be racist to argue that all Muslims are potential bomb-throwers because of their religion and I'm aware that this argument has been made. I'm not convinced that the cartoon is question was making that argument but it's a plausible enough possibility. I'll consider it and I will visit the above link and try to keep an open mind.

I was sticking to the point by focusing on physical/mental inferiority because my original point was that this is a stricter, more traditional usage of the word "racism". I understand that you are using a broader definition in a way that has become common usage but your response to my initial question, was a simple "Oh?" You were implying that physical and mental inferiority was part of the original message and I wanted to know in what way, which brings me to my second point.

This is a general objection I have had some time with the broadened usage of the term "racism". I grew up in a traditionally racist town. Most of the white adults in my town were traditional racists. They believed that blacks (and other races) were inferior to whites physically and mentally. They believed that discrimination based on race was okay because of this supposed inferiority. When we broaden the term in the way we have, we create two related negative effects that are not commonly acknowledged (in addition to the positive effects and the negative effects that are commonly acknowledged, i.e., standard anti-PC arguments). What we do, IMO, is to simultaneously diminish the impact and importance of the strides that have been made to overcome racism and we, essentially, take an enormous percentage of western citizens and label them racists. This leaves the small percentage of enlightened, pure thinkers and then everybody else. I think by your definition I am a racist and that a good 50-70% of posters here are racists and a solid 88-98% of US citizens are racists. So either we're all shitheads (because, believe you me, the traditional racists from my hometown were shitheads if they were anything) or racism doesn't mean much of anything anymore.

I'm not willing to make this argument. It's misanthropic, hopeless, and irrationally pessimistic.

[iverglas]

152. language and who makes it

Rather than rehash any of the rest, just this one point, which is certainly of interest.

This is a general objection I have had some time with the broadened usage of the term "racism". - etc.

I make a distinction, in another context, between "sexism" and "misogyny". Sexism is the practice of ascribing characteristics, roles, value, wages, whatever, based on sex: adherence to beliefs in stereotypes and application of those stereotypes -- equivalent to your "They believed that discrimination based on race was okay because of this supposed inferiority". Misogyny is hatred of women. Misogyny can arise from various sources, one of which is a rather inevitable contempt for that which is inferior; as can hatred of people of different races, religions, etc.

There is no such doublet of words when it comes to race, religion, and other characteristics of human beings. This can make discourse about the ascribing of characteristics, and hatred based on ascribed or real characteristics, difficult.

You seem to have been thinking of the ascribing of characteristics aspect. The thing is, ascribing negative characteristics really does generally lead to hatred, or at the least contempt, and they really do generally lead to harmful acts if the opportunity or perceived need for them arises.

I did refer to having posted many times in these discussions. I have in fact addressed the stereotyping-to-hatred connection, the nature of bigotry, and so on.

So either we're all shitheads (because, believe you me, the traditional racists from my hometown were shitheads if they were anything) or racism doesn't mean much of anything anymore.

Only if we don't admit of degrees, are we all shitheads. Some of us are genuinely ignorant, some of us are just kinda innocuous jerks, some of us are well-intentioned but misguided, and some of us are engaged in constant struggle against the shit in our heads.


Edit -

I forgot my original point.

Oppressed people aren't generally the ones in control of language. I prefer to try to understand what they mean when they use language developed to express the reality of dominant racial, religious or whatever-else group to express their own realities, rather than assert that they are not using that language the way it was intended or to express the reality it was originally designed to express.

[VirginiaDem]

155. Okay.

I still disagree about the issue at hand but you make your point well and I'll think about my racism/language argument.

[daleo]

146. One can be put in an awkward spot in these discussions

But some subjects are inherently difficult to talk about, without people sometimes imputing incorrect or irrelevant motives to the opposing position.

[bemildred]

126. It is a fucking taboo.

A taboo is not a taboo because it is true or false, or right or wrong, it is a taboo because you are not allowed to argue about it. Other western taboos are pedophilia and incest, for example, or cannibalism. Sodomy used to be, but is now argueable and discussable. (And no, I am not advocating anything, I'm talking about the meaning of the word "taboo".) The non-western world is full of perfectly normal people that do not question the historical reality of the Holocaust, but who are also able and willing to consider it dispassionately, and doing that will get you thrown in jail in places in Europe, because the subject means a lot more in Europe. If you are Chinese, the death count for the Holocaust is modest compared to their losses in WWII.

[Spinoza]

147. Hundreds of cultures in the world

have thousands of different taboos. Which ones should the western press be sure to respect thru self-censorship? (And you can find cartoons, somewhere in the West, satirizing just about anything including incest, pedophilia and cannibalism.) During the Catholic priest pedophilia scandals I remember brutal cartoons satirizing priests, the Catholic church, Christian hypocricy, etc. I don't recall death threats from the Pope. Some of the these cartoons went over the line, and probably violated some Catholic taboos, and I am sure many Catholics felt attacked in their faith. They didn't burn down embassies. And the DANES didn't violate any taboos. Some Danish cartoonists did. And finally, since when can't taboos, of any kind, be satirized and ridiculed?

[Endangered Specie]

107. So now Israel will bomb Iran?

they could do worse.

[fujiyama]

111. Well

They have a right to do so. I don't see how insulting a prophet is the same as making fun of mass murder (the Danish cartoons did not make fun of Palestinians or Iraqis dying), but to each their own. A more accurate analogy would be making fun of Moses.

Neither the US or Israel has the right to stop them from it though, regardless of how distateful it is.

Either way, this won't be the first time the press in an Islamic nation has had anti semitic cartoons. This is nothing new.

[knight_of_the_star]

119. Wow

I wonder if history will call this the Cartoon War.

[Maestro]

121. Cartoons making fun of someone's religion is in poor taste

and a bad choice in trying to assert one's freedom of speech but to say that the Nazi's did not try to exterminate the Jews is just insane.

[Marie26]

136. I wonder what percentage

of Iranians actually believe that. Bet it's pretty high.

[Maestro]

141. Sad

but true. :(

[Rex]

124. We have insane clergy, fascist oil men, and soon to be

very pissed off Israelis. Just what we don't need, a perfect 3-way shit storm. I'm really fucking getting nervous about the whole scenario. Powder keg.

[Megahurtz]

153. Lol 'aint THAT the truth! n/t

[Julius Civitatus]

130. Danish Muslims used FALSE CARTOONS to spark the rage

Yes, there's a new twist that may explain some aspects of this story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x346477

[Initech]

134. Is WWIII going to be started through political cartoons?

[Julius Civitatus]

135. Examples of anti-semitic cartoons in the arab press

This is the type of shit they publish daily (cartoons collected by the Anti Defamation League). All these cartoons were published in 2005 in newspapers from Audi Arabia, Egypt and Lebanon:

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/asam_july_dec_intro_2005.htm

http://www.adl.org/egyptian_media/egyptian_cartoons.asp

[depakid]

137. What a class act!

Sounded like something out of the onion.

Pox on both houses if the US attacks Iran.

[Merrick]

145. Great, let's see whose people are more crazily retarded

What's that, honey? Ann Frank in a thong? Strap me up with the plastic explosives, I'm going down to the falaffel stand!

[Megahurtz]

151. How Incredibly Fucking Stupid. n/t

[superconnected]

154. WTF did the Jews do. Okay, I mean cartoonwise, not palestine.

Great, get mad at the danes and uses it to spread hate propaganda against the jews. Which this guy was spreading anyway, verbally.

He does hit my point though. His cartoons ARE HATE PROPAGANDA, not just cartoons.

Just like the Danes are, and just like the Nazi German Cartoons against Jews I keep posting today are.

I certianly hope those people who think it's great to print hate propagada don't mind the nut that opens for news papers to be over run with HATE cartoons.
- oh yeah, they can't tell the difference between political cartoons(free speech) and hate propaganda. (hint-one attacks a whole people, ie the muslims, and their god, with no other point.)

Gee, ya think the Jews will catch on? Many americans right here still haven't.

It's free speech... if you think that covers yelling fire in a movie theatre, saying sexist remarks to co-workers, and defamining a whole people for the point of extermination.