Craigslist sued over housing ad bias

[sabra]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-060207craigslist,1,3544774.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Craigslist sued over housing ad bias
Online classified site's standards in question

A Chicago fair housing group has sued groundbreaking Web site Craigslist for allegedly publishing discriminatory advertisements, a case that could test the legal liabilities of online ad venues.

The suit is part of an emerging attempt by housing watchdogs nationally to hold online classified sites to the same strict standards as the publishers of print classifieds, such as newspapers.

...

Among the ads cited in the suit: "Non-women of Color NEED NOT APPLY"; "African Americans and Arabians tend to clash with me so that won't work out"; and "Requirements: Clean Godly Christian Male."

...

The site doesn't pre-screen or approve ads, he said, and 8 million new classified ads are submitted each month.

[mshasta]

1. Give me a break. It would be impossible for them to screen ads

I think craigslists only employees like 5 people so give me a break. Why dont they sue BUSH and Company for not providing housing.

[PSPS]

2. Well, it is illegal

This type of housing discrimination is illegal and should be stopped. The reason print media rejects such ads is because it is illegal. Craig's list and any other website has a responsibility not to promote housing discrimination. If, in fact, they have a "staff of 5," they need to step up to the plate and either hire more people to pre-screen the ads, or reject housing ads.

Just because they're a website doesn't confer any special status to them in this regard.

[fleabert]

14. something tells me you have never been on 'Craig's list', lol.

www.craigslist.com

try and post a rental ad, see what you get in terms of info about equal housing information. it's a crap lawsuit.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

46. You really think it should be stopped?

I'm not really sure about the legality of it; however, I think that if I were some sort of minority (black, gay, etc.) I would want to know whether or not the people posting these ads for a ROOMMATE were bigots. It would also be nice to know that I wasn't wasting my time looking at apartments where there was no way I was going to be accepted as a tenant.

I've searched and lived with several people from Craigslist, and I always make sure to indicate that there's no way you are getting the apartment if you have pets or if you smoke. Should that be banned also?

[Digit]

3. I can tell you that newspapers want to put craigslist out of business

I wonder if these were "REAL" ads, or ones designed to get rid of them.

[EFerrari]

6. Bingo.

Craig is a huge community guy. And a big fat target.

[Angry Girl]

32. Like you said, he's a decent egg, hence a target

He did a LOT to help the victims of the Katrina Purge and also his non-profit foundation,

http://craigslistfoundation.org

is quite insightful. CraigsList has been a fairly important tool for me and my husband for many things, from selling to buying to finding work and finding people who want to work, etc.... Way better than ANY newspaper!

We need to give the guy some support back.

[EFerrari]

41. Once when my son was scammed on the net, Craig was the

ONLY one I could find to help me. Not the FBI, not the cops, nada. And I couldn't believe that he took the time to help out total strangers.

[henslee]

45. Someone else i know got a call from Craig too.

[Rich Hunt]

50. I'm sure he's a decent guy and all...

....but Craigslist is FULL of racists and other lying creeps, to the point where it is unusable for anyone who wants to do something other than read posts by racists, homophobes and creepy obsessives.

Don't see how he'd be a political target when he's bent over backward to give every fascist, creep and stalker
on the planet a forum (his right, of course, but he is no less obligated to comply with the law than anyone
else).

[nodehopper]

54. it is not illegal

it is illegal to discriminate based on race, but it is not illegal to provide an open web forum where all sorts of stuff gets posted. I mean, if that is illegal then so are all of the unmoderated forums on the internet.

[wickerwoman]

4. What the hell does this even mean?

"Non-women of color need not apply"?

Does that mean no black men or no people who aren't women of color?

I think discrimination is just the beginning of their problems.

[EFerrari]

5. This is crap and will be tossed out of court.

I've used craigslist to list a rental and he has EVERY fair housing warning on his form.

Geezus, Craig came out to speak at our benefit for the San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness. There's no way he'd be cool with this kind of discriminatory CRAP.

They are trying to swiftboat him because he is progrossive. Don't drink the kool aide.

[TheWatcher]

7. Exactly what I was thinking.

People need to remember the times we are living in. People are paid to disrupt Message Boards, why could they not have paid thugs to post crap on Craigslist. If you are familiar with how these people operate, it is not difficult to see how bogus this is.

They want control of EVERYTHING. I'm surprised Craigslist has managed to steer clear of the machine as long as it has.

[EFerrari]

10. It's transparent to people in San Francisco.

And, clueless as I am re tech, I so admire Craig for his community work.

They do want control of everything. They will bring it against people like Craig who are socially responsible. And, they will lose. Because there is a huge contingent of people who honor his community work, quaint as that might be, and we will defend Craig no matter effen' what.

[fleabert]

15. I am with you. I've never met the guy, and I would get in a fight for him.

he's the shit.

[Rich Hunt]

51. you've got a good point there...

I think Craigslist is a great idea, and I'm with him all the way, but on some days it really looks like the
white supremacists are staging an organized attack on the place, making it intolerable.

[ixion]

11. yep, agreed.

it certainly has that stench.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. Craigslist may in fact be violating fair housing laws.

Without regard to whether some busy little operatives are planting these listings with the intent of bringing down the competition, fair housing law places the burden on newspapers and others who accept paid ads to screen for compliance with fair housing law. The media outlets used the same arguments posted here, that because they post warnings on compliance with fair housing law they should not be liable for ad content, only the person/company who placed the discriminatory ad should be.

I'm guessing that the test here is whether Craigslist as an advertiser-supported business falls under the same banner as newspapers and magazines who collect revenue from the rental listers. It will be interesting to see how this one sorts out.

[Xithras]

37. But Craigslist is NOT like a newspaper.

Functionally, Craigslist has more in common with the guy who hangs a corkboard on the front of his building and lets people post fliers on it. While they do generate income from the site, they are a FREE service and ads are posted withour review.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. That's why I said it will be interesting to see how it sorts out.

If Craigslist is held out to be more like the corkboard, they have no obligation to uphold fair housing law. The issue is whether because they derive revenue indirectly from that service (in essence, getting paid for the ads but by a third party) they should be held to the same standards.

As I said, it's an interesting test. I also think someone planted the ads to force it, but that's pure speculation on my part.

[EFerrari]

40. At CL, before your ad is posted, there is a screen

where you have to agree to comply with FH law before you are allowed to continue your posting. I think he's covered. And it pisses me off that someone who has done so much for so many is being HARASSED in this way.

[Gormy Cuss]

42. I understand the harassment angle, but the way it works in FH enforcement

on traditional paid ads the newspaper would still be at fault if the lister slipped by the screening process. As I said, it's an interesting test because the law was written without anticipation of something like Craigslist and it's not at all clear how it will be interpreted. Xithras thinks he's protected by the Telecom Act. We'll see.

Given the other attack on Craigslist referenced here I doubt that the ads were placed by innocents. The wording is so bizarre that it sounds like they were written by clueless young Republican WASPs from pretty little exclusive enclaves where everyone is homogeneous.

[EFerrari]

44. The wording is bizzare. And there are plenty of those

enclaves all around the Bay Area.

[madrchsod]

8. it`s up to the people who go to the site

to police it-go to the auto page like chicago`s and you`ll find people policing what is going on. if there`s ads that say these things the best thing to do is out them for what they are and inform craigslist. self policing is an effective way to stop these assholes. oh yes the newspapers are losing millions to craigslist no wonder they are pissed

[Sgent]

9. They have an uphill battle

Content neutral providers are protected from most form's of liability. I'm not sure how providing an unpaid place for adds is discriminatory.

Now, as to the landlords, sue the pants off of them.

[rucky]

12. Sue the poster, not Craig.

duh. Craigslist doesn't even really make any money to go after & I'd hate to see a few bad apples ruin such a fantastic organization.

[fleabert]

13. it is well stated that CL doesn't screen the ads and take no

responsiblity for the content, they should go after the fucking racists who post that shit.

[pinniped]

16. It was probably some prepubescent punk posting that racist crap....

or a plant, like many here have stated.

Anyone with an email addy can post crap for kicks.

[bitchkitty]

17. I LOVE Craigslist!

I found an apartment on Craigslist. This lawsuit is bogus! If he starts a donation fund for legal expenses, I'm good for a few bucks. Craigslist is a valuable community service.

[Taxloss]

18. I'm dismayed that some of you think this is OK.

It displays a double standard, unless you would support "whites only" classifieds in your local newspaper. There is no difference. While screening may be impossible, the ads should at the very least have an "alert" function similar to that here on DU so that they can be flagged for unacceptable content.

[Trajan]

20. NO ONE is supporting 'Whites Only' ads ....

Craigslist is NOT a local newspaper; it is an ALLEY with advertizing written on the fences ... it is a bathroom wall with ANYONE able to scrawl WHATEVER they wish .....

They DO have flags ....

Have you ever been there ? ...

Sheeeesh

[Taxloss]

21. "Sheeeesh"?

Your absence of concern is, as I said, dismaying. If there is a flagging system and yet these adverts are still proliferating, then the list is not being regulated enough. The Tribune story indicates that this is far from a couple of isolated instances.

Perhaps you would like to read a report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation expressing concern that even the best-intentioned online lettings sites might drive segregation. It was talking in terms of wealth, but it's clear the principle extends to race as well. Or at least that things are heading that way.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/pressroom/releases/170805.asp

[Trajan]

26. You apparently have NO clue what is going on here ...

Tell you what: .. you seem to have plenty of time on your hands: craigslist.com is present in about 100 communities ...

If you get started this morning: it will take you about a week to scour each site and cleanse it ...

THAT is if you also have enough time to come in here and deride your fellow liberal DUers for being racists ...

Get started ...

[Taxloss]

27. Wow, quite an over-reaction.

Aren't you being somewhat over-sensitive? I didn't accuse anyone of being racist; my remark about double standards was intended to illustrate that shoulder-shrugging is not enough here, and no matter how fond one might be of a website, it is better to hold it to account than to tolerate this sort of discrimination.

Your suggestion that I go through the listings is ludicrous and irrelevant, and your implication that I have time on my hands is presumably intended to be insulting, which demonstrates that you have little interest in discussiuon of what comprises acceptable discourse on the internet. Craigslist is a publisher. Ebay and Cafepress maintain higher standards - it should as well. They have the resources to regulate better, they should use them.

[Digit]

60. Actually, if I were to actually SEE a post of that sort....

Knowing what a big mouth I am, I would probably let them know.
I would tell them they were being discriminatory in their posting and that it was illegal.
I would not be ugly about it, and since my reply would be private, no flame wars would follow.

The only objectionable ads I have seen were in the singles section....people wanting one night stands.
Hey, it's the internet...I chose not to reply...no big deal.

Otherwise, I have never seen a discrimatory ad on craigslist.
Last I knew, promiscuity was not classified as a protected class.

Live long and prosper Craigslist.org!

[drm604]

22. They should be going after the people who place the ads.

I dont't think anyone here thinks that it's okay, but they're going after the wrong parties. Craigslist can't possibly police everything on their site. Requiring them to do so would shut down them and similar sites. Only big business would then be able to fill that niche. Is that really what we want?

Your alert button idea might have some merit and maybe should be explored, but I suspect they'd be overwhelmed by prudes alerting on the personal ads. Still, it's worth examining.

[msongs]

24. seems to me there is an alert function and by the way

this sort of "discrimination" is carried out every day by races and religions of all kinds. at least at craigs list in this case
the people are being honest.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[EFerrari]

28. They do. n/t

[Angry Girl]

35. They do have an alert function

But it's a self-policing group, where no individual person is held responsible, excepting the poster. I see scams fishing for email addresses on Craiglist all the time but don't necessarily report them anymore due to the never-ending supply of them, lack of time and the fact that people just have to learn to look out for themselves at some time. Obviously when it's more serious than that I do use the alert function.

[nodehopper]

56. are you familiar witih craigslist policies?

Are you familiar with how it is different from a newspaper?

If I saw a discriminatory ad on a public billboard in Brooklyn, I would object to the ad, not to the wallspace.

[drm604]

19. It looks like there may be an organized attack on Craigslist.

Two attacks within a short period. See this other thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=339149

It might be interesting to look into who exactly is involved in these two issues and see if there is any connection.

[EFerrari]

29. Interesting. I had forgotten about that thread. nt

[msongs]

23. craigslist provides porno to children nt

[drm604]

30. What are you talking about?

That's quite an accusation. Can you back that up at all?

[EFerrari]

31. I believe msongs is paraphrasing the accusation made by

the Thuggery, not making a charge.

[rinsd]

49. Yeah, simply click on the casual encounters section under personals

Much like porn sites it asks you to swear you are 18.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=cas&SID=

Not that I care that much but that is what people are probably bitching about.

[msongs]

59. you are correct. no restrictions at all. our neighbor kids know all about

this source of "information" that is free and available to anyone who cares to view it, as if a disclaimer
page will keep anybody out.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[stepnw1f]

25. Why Are They (Whoever they are) Sueing Craigslist?

It has nothing to do with Craigslist.... sue the poster! Something smells phoney about this lawsuit.

[mitts]

34. Its plain to see

Someone wants to make money off everything. Craigslits is free so it sets a business motto that doesn't work for capitalism. Thus some "lobbyists" I'm sure had a hand in this.

Lawyers are idiotic. Unfortunately I think I'm falling for one.

[Xithras]

36. CraigsList is legally protected and will win.

The 1996 Telecommunications Act defined Internet service providers as "common carriers" and specifically exempted them from responsibility for content carried over their networks. Legally, suing Craiglist for this has about as much chance of winning as suing GMail for racist emails sent by their subscribers, suing the telephone company for racist phone calls you've received, or suing geocities for a racist website that someone posted. While I'm sure there are people who would love to do just that, we have laws in this country that protect information carriers. As long as the Craigslist staff aren't practicing editorial control, they are classified as carriers and are protected.

FWIW, vice patrols have been complaining about this fact and Craigslist for a while now. Prostitutes are posting a LOT of stuff online in their erotic boards, and the police are helpless to shut it down. They've tried everything and have discovered that their hands are tied. These housing advocates are going to discover the same thing.

[madmark]

39. it defies imagination that craigslist would have the desire, let alone

the capability, to redline.

[rivertext]

43. right to discriminate with shared housing

the ads sighted above seemed to be for shared housing "African Americans tend to clash with me"

Can you imagine what it would mean if typical fair housing laws were applied to roomate/housemate situations?


Teenage women sued for choosing not to share their house with Middle Age men

Christians sued for choosing not to share their home with witches

No sex outside of marriage Homophobic Christians sued for not sharing their home with promiscuous gay men

----------

Landlords who feel the need to discriminate should find another business -- but people, I believe, have a right to exercise some control over who shares their space.

[HockeyMom]

58. Seen ads on there for CHRISTIAN Rentals

Passed over those. I am sure they would not like either Me (separated from husband) or my GAY daughter.

I got enough problems with NO PETS, never mind my marital status or my daughter's sexual orientation.

[KamaAina]

47. Clueless ex-FEMA heads who raise Arabians tend to clash with me

so that won't work out!

[orleans]

48. if they take too many ads to screen then maybe they should

figure out a way to screen when words such as "need not apply" appear in an ad or "no..." before the various words such as blacks, women, etc.

it's a computer. the nsa screens us for various words and phrases--we know the technology is there.

[flashdebadge]

52. I don't believe that ad was serious. If it was, they should be ashamed!!

[nodehopper]

53. that is such BS

craigslist has a policy of removal based on consusus, so when enough people flag the ads, it gets pulled. They don't sceen ads, and it says so straight up in their policy. That is what the "flagging" option is for.

[DS1]

55. Well at least fine him for the double-negative

:hide:

[twaddler01]

57. Give me a break

it is like an open forum on there.... *sigh*