NRA bill would OK guns in cars at work in Florida

[sabra]

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/nation/13821393.htm

NRA bill would OK guns in cars at work in Florida


TALLAHASSEE - The National Rifle Association is pushing a bill that would penalize Florida employers with prison time and lawsuits if they prohibit people from keeping guns in their cars at workplace parking lots.

But the proposal is facing stiff opposition from a group just as powerful in the state capital as the NRA: Florida's biggest business lobby.
Mark Wilson, a vice president of Florida's Chamber of Commerce, which represents 136,000 businesses, said the proposal, to be voted on today in a House committee, is ''an all-out assault'' on employer-employee relations that intrudes on private property rights.

With other business groups expected to join in, the widespread opposition to the NRA bill sets the stage for a rare power struggle between two of the Legislature's mightiest lobbies. And some political observers predict that, for one of the first times in recent history, the NRA will lose in the Legislature of a state where one of every 49 people has a concealed weapons permit and an estimated six million own firearms.

Bill sponsor Rep. Dennis Baxley, an Ocala Republican, said he filed the legislation to prevent ''back-door gun control.'' In the past two years, he has successfully sponsored bills limiting lawsuits against gun ranges, preventing cops from compiling electronic lists of gun owners and expanding people's rights to use deadly force if they feel threatened outside their homes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. THIS FREAKS ME OUT

I can't give too many details or the situation could be recognized, but suffice it to say I have worked with a colleague who had the potential to go out the the car and come back and do bad things with a firearm.

This is a bad thing.

[dmallind]

6. Why?

I have that "potential" right now. Heck I have that "potential" every day. Only person ever injured or endangered by my guns is when I split my thumbnail cleaning a Glock 30's breech face last week.

10s of millions of Americans own firearms. Not sure how many carry but has to be millions. Very few companies allow guns at work for some reason (despite the fact that CCW licensees are by definition the most law abiding and reasonable of possible populations, since essentially any conviction or sign of anger issues is a no-go) so obviously that means millions of people with guns in their cars at work. The chances are unless you work for a tiny company that a lot more than ONE of your colleagues has this "potential". You just know about, and have no doubt some reason to be concerned about, this one. Is he a CCW holder by the way? If not he's already breaking the law in almost all states.

There are very few indeed who shoot up their places of work. The ones that do would hardly be stopped by company policies about guns in the parking lot now would they?

The idea that control over the places where guns can be kept will reduce crimes is rather facile. To make any difference at all, you have to posit someone with the irrationality and disregard for others that they are willing to go on a shooting spree, but alsxo that that same person will obey rules about where to keep a gun. Not that likely.

The only even vaguely cogent argument is that it allows someone enraged at work more time to "cool off" by having to go home before they start shooting people. Again though you have to imagine someone irrational enough to take out workplace frustrations in a hail of bullets in the first place, but rational enough to decide not to after all. Last high-profile shooting we had with a CCW holder (in fact the ONLY shooting with one I'm aware of) the possession of guns made no difference, since he went back home to get the gun he shot a bouncer with anyway, making carrying a non-issue.

Don't be freaked out by gunowners. Be freaked out by people wacko enough to shoot people. They will almost certainly do something equally wacko with or without the guns, or regardless of where they have to keep them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. In this situation

the colleague made threats and his/her car was searched and a firearm found. He/she was ordered to psychiatric care by the agency I work for, and it was evidently successful. This person k nows that it is illegal to have a gun in the parking lot (the agency I worked for deals with children) and he/she will be fired if that law is broken. It isn't much, but it is something.

I have lived through a school shooting. The gun was in the car and retrieved and used to shoot a custodian in the cafeteria, who fell dead on a table full of first graders before running through the campus and shooting into groups of playing children. That was 17 years ago and I still haven't gotten over it, and either have the kids at that table.

[dmallind]

9. Hell yeah then we agree

That guy should have no damn right to own a gun let alone bring it near other people.

The thing is it already IS illegal as you say - so not going to make any difference in this case.

Sad to hear about the school shooting of course, but as other mass shootings have shown, restrictions on the location or ownership of the weapons involved makes little difference to the people wacko enough to do something like that. Post hoc is not propter hoc of course - and it's impossible to know (my guess is definitely not based on other shootings) whether the gun being at home in a safe would have made any difference at all.

My pointy is about a GENERALIZED concern with access to firearms of course, which is what laws must be based on.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

92. LOL

Always did have a problem with mixed up modifiers and such.

please place a coma between "graders" and "before."

..first graders, before running through.

No, the custodian stayed good and dead on the table, hit right betweeen the eyes. They didn't even send for an ambulance because he was really, really dead. Just the funeral home. They caught the shooter a few miles away and he's doing 25 to life.

[Ciggies and coffee]

17. The Insurance Industry is behind the business bans

But we never hear that, along with other laws/rules that are that are force-fed to the public by them.

[MrBenchley]

29. Love to see you prove that....

Yeah, when the twitchy gump from the mailroom wants to bring his gun to the office, only someone with a sinister motive could object....</sarcasm>

By the way, let's discuss the charming clot of bigots, loonies and criminals that make up the NRA, who are the force PUSHING this bill.....

[SidDithers]

75. Is there anywhere that a gun owner with a CCW license...

shouldn't be allowed to take their gun?

Sid

[Pavulon]

76. Yes

Airports, Large Venues, and bars imho.

There are common sense places where a weapon should not be allowed.

Most normal people in my area carry a weapon of some type. It is not a threat. I have a shotgun behind the rear seat of my truck. In a rural area people carry hunting arms continually. That way they can leave work and go hunting.

[DUperMan]

149. I am a Florida democrat and have a conceal carry license

I live and work in Florida and I have a concealed carry license. I keep a 9mm in my truck at work.

There are many places you cannot carry - bars, sporting events, public offices/buildings, schools/universities, etc.

[IndianaGreen]

84. Nothing like guns plus road rage!

I want my own RPG so that next time a SUV cuts in front of my little car, I can blow him away.

[dmallind]

141. Millions of gun owners -how many road rage shootings?

nt

[IndianaGreen]

145. Quite a few!

Come on down to the city and away from the gated communities and you will see plenty of gun violence involving people in vehicles.

[northzax]

103. but it's my private property

if I am the business owner, why can't I forbid you to bring a firearm onto my property, if I so want to?

[dmallind]

142. Well

Did you support the business owner who banned Kerry bumper stickers from his parking lot? If not, then the same reasons apply here. Should a business owner be able to ban non-American cars? Any other type of possessions or tools, especially ones with constitutional protection?

[northzax]

147. yes, it's my property

I can say the only cars that can park in my lot are pink cadillacs, then that's all that can get in. You do not have the right to free speech on my private property.

[MrBenchley]

2. Because there's never enough workplace shootings ....

"In the past two years, he has successfully sponsored bills limiting lawsuits against gun ranges, preventing cops from compiling electronic lists of gun owners and expanding people's rights to use deadly force if they feel threatened outside their homes."
Republicans, the corrupt gun lobby and bad government--perfect together.

[alarimer]

38. Exactly

This is a STUPID law.

[MrBenchley]

85. One of many from the gun lobby....

In Arizona, the GOP and the gun lobby are trying to knock down the requirement that imbeciles toting guns get training...

In a number of states the GOP and the gun lobby are trying to pass "Get Away With Murder" bills giving a free pass to anyone who CLAIMS self-defense....

[pinniped]

3. Note: Park on the freaking public street.

If you work in the boonies, park in the freaking swamp.

[Not Me]

4. This is going to be interesting...

It is pitting the NRA against the Chamber of Commerce: wingnuts against Corporate interests. The legislators are going to be lobbied like never before.

One interesting tidbit, heard on the news the other night is that there are over 6 MILLION guns in Florida.

Jeesh.

[wakeme2008]

11. Right the Repugs are going to piss off one group

:popcorn:

[Up2Late]

5. Why is the NRA doing this? Having a gun in your car, in Florida at work...

...has been legal for a LONG time. When I worked there in 1993, one of my co-workers (who always seemed a bit unstable to me) bragged about having a gun in his car.

[flvegan]

22. But once you're on company property/leased property

like the parking lot, technically, you might be deemed at work persuant to the guidelines of your employer.

Doesn't really matter. If someone wants to fire someone for having a gun in the car, they can just say "you're fired. get out." Don't really need a specific reason.

[guruoo]

46. Under "right to work" they can fire you without a reason, but...

they can be held liable if they fire you
for the wrong given reason.

[iverglas]

49. and it still would be legal

But employers may prohibit the doing of things that are entirely legal, on their property. Unless laws like this pass.

If employers may be prohibited from prohibiting firearms in vehicles on their property, then they could be prohibited from prohibiting people from having sex on the lunchroom floor, or bringing their dogs to work. It's legal to possess firearms, it's legal to have sex, it's legal to own dogs. But nobody really expects employers to tolerate people having sex on their premises or bringing their dogs to work. Why is it the legislature's business if employers choose not to tolerate people having firearms in their vehicles on public property?

And noooo (there's always someone who says this) ... this isn't like prohibiting people from having religious or political propaganda in their cars on company property.

Nobody uses propaganda to commit crimes or cause death or injury. Nobody else breaks into vehicles to steal propaganda with which to commit crimes or cause death or injury. Propaganda in vehicles on employers' property doesn't expose others there or elsewhere to any risk of harm, or expose the employer to a risk of liability for that harm.

Quite an amazing disregard for property rights these Republicans exhibit sometimes, it seems.

[f-bush]

8. That's all we need

a bunch of uneducated, biogted, racist southern redneck republicans with guns in their cars. I say we do a tourism boycott of Florida if it happens!

[dmallind]

10. Speaking of bigoted

I'm a highly educated nonbigoted nonracist northern whitecollar Democrat and your post is offensively stereotypical and bigoted in the extreme.

So we say (accurately) that Gore won FL but assume all the population there are bigoted redneck racist Republicans? Or do you assume that only people of those charcateristics have guns in their cars? I do. Pro-gun posts on DU are hardly hard to find. So what's the basis for your silly stereotype - wrong assumptions about Floridians or wrong assumptions about gun owners?

[stepnw1f]

14. He Specifically Was Talking about A Specific Group of

uneducated racist redneck Republicans. Nothing stereotypical about that statement. Now if he called all Republicans, or every Floridian those things, then I could see why you would get upset.

[dmallind]

16. Really?

So the proposed law will only apply to the uneducated rednecks? Or only these folks would crae? There is no specificity at all in that post or in the law. The law would apply to all FL businesses. How can you go from there to an assumption of uneducated rednecks?

[stepnw1f]

18. Did He/She Address all as Being Rednecks?

Nope...

[dmallind]

23. Did s/he specify a group of rednecks

and relate why they would be particularly affected by this law?

nope.

So it was either bigotry ot a completely disconnected and irrelvant point about some unidentified and indistinct group of rednecks who may decide to bring guns to work more than they do, which of course in no way was a bigoted implication that uneducated rednecks are likely to be either Floridians or gunowners (even though they are the only relevant groups....)

[stepnw1f]

25. Naw Man... You Are Reading too Much Into It

That's my opinion. I didn't read the post as all Floridians being rednecks or even all gun owners. If I did, I'd be flamin'him/her.

Besides, there are too many posting junk just to make liberals look just as bigoted as the reich wing.

[iverglas]

52. stay up at night dreaming this stuff up?

Did s/he specify a group of rednecks
and relate why they would be particularly affected by this law?

Would whatever group of rednecks anyone might have in mind NOT be affected by this law?

"a bunch of uneducated, biogted, racist southern redneck republicans with guns in their cars"

I'm sure not seeing anybody saying all people with guns in their cars are uneducated &c. republicans. I'm sure not seing anybody saying that uneducated &c. republicans would be the only ones affected by this law, or particularly affected by this law.

How you could purport to be seeing any of those things is as beyond me as it apparently is beyond some others.

Now I'll say

"a bunch of daffodils outside my window"

and you can tell me that I have just claimed that all daffodils are outside my window ... or everything outside my window is daffodils ... or ... my head's hurting.

[dmallind]

143. So it was an irrelevant aside then

There was absolutely no connection between these putative bigoted redneck Republicans and the gun law?

It's either one or the other - if there is a connection or association with the proposed law, then it is a stereotype.

If there is no connection then it's an irrelevant statement that might equally have been about daffodils?

Which one?

[iverglas]

144. "which one?"

What colour is orange: true or false?

C'mon -- which one??

If you can make sense of my question, I should be able to make sense of yours. At present, I can't. And it would still have precisely bugger all to do with anything I said.

Maybe I can help you, though.

A rule that does not prohibit anyone from doing "X" allows everyone to do "X". A rule that does not prohibit anyone from purchasing alcohol allows everyone to purchase alcohol -- including five-year-olds. A rule that does not prohibit anyone from having a firearm in a vehicle at work allows everyone to have a firearm in his/her vehicle -- including "putative bigoted redneck Republicans".

A rule can prohibit five-year-olds from purchasing alcohol while allowing everyone else to; the rule is justifiable and easily enforced. The perceived potential harm of allowing five-year-olds to purchase alcohol can be averted by such a rule.

A rule that prohibited "putative bigoted redneck Republicans" from having firearms in their vehicles at work would not be justifiable, and would be impossible to enforce. The perceived potential harm of allowing "putative bigoted redneck Republicans" to have firearms in their vehicles at work can only be averted by prohibiting everyone from having firearms in their vehicles at work.

The actual intent of such rules, of course, is to avert the perceived potential harm of allowing angry, impulsive or unbalanced people having firearms in their vehicles at work, and of people with criminal intent stealing firearms from vehicles. They will also prohibit placid, sober, stable hunters, and distrustful, paranoid people, and forgetful people, and people who have been doing Christmas shopping, from having firearms in their vehicles at work. And they will also prohibit "putative bigoted redneck Republicans" from having firearms in their vehicles at work.

Not all people prohibited from having firearms in their vehicles at work will fall into any of those classes.

And no one's personal reason for welcoming such a rule will affect the intent or actual effect of the rule, anyhow. So yup, I guess you were right: the statement was irrelevant, as is anyone's opinion about anything, really.

[f-bush]

36. Your Right I didn't

and I'm a he...my name is Mike

[f-bush]

35. Thank you

that is why I said what I said, I would think that I wouldn't have to spell everything out. Of course anyone with common sense knows that there are some great folks in the south, just like there are a bunch of uneducated narrow minded assholes in the north.

It seems to me, that the fear pandering that the NRA is so adept at has been quite well recieved in the South AND if you look at most of the demographic studies, the south on the whole is the least formally educated part of the nation!

[Ciggies and coffee]

19. Too many operatives spouting elitist crap, to drive the working class

away from the Dems.

[brentspeak]

20. I was thinking the same thing

Happens a lot on DU.

[MrBenchley]

28. What in the world is elitist

about not having armed imbeciles in the workplace?

[guruoo]

40. I think that's it - n/t

[MrBenchley]

26. Yeah, let's speak of bigoted...

"Gun rights" is little more than a thinly veiled code for good old fashioned right wing craziness and racism....

"Pro-gun posts on DU are hardly hard to find."
For that matter, posts by right wing loonies on various freeper cesspools boasting about trolling into DU to post gun nut propaganda are pretty easy to find.

If you want to see a hilarious example, check out this thread, especially post 193 passim....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2191657

[guruoo]

41. Bush has changed all that.

Appreciation for the Second Amendment is no longer
a value exclusive to the reichwing.

[iverglas]

53. shifting definitions ...

Appreciation for the Second Amendment is no longer
a value exclusive to the reichwing.

Depends on how one defines that latter thang, I'd say.

I'd include anybody yammering about taking up arms against tyranny in the good old USofA, myself ... expecially since I don't see anybody actually doing it.

[guruoo]

66. Don't see any tyranny...

or don't see anyone taking up arms, or
do you mean you view taking up arms against reichtwing tyranny
as reichwing tyranny in itself?

[MrBenchley]

72. Who you gonna shoot first?

It's always hilarious to see people on DU spout that silly "you gotta getta gun for the glorious revolution" gibberish--especially since they usually have nothing but far rigth wing talking points to back it up.

[guruoo]

80. Never said anything about starting a "revolution"

Your reading too much into what I've said.

[MrBenchley]

81. So in other words, you're just going to wave your gun around

and spout right wing silliness.....

[guruoo]

90. Nope

Wrong again.

[MrBenchley]

73. Still a pretty penny is made by hucksters

peddling that to teh Randy Weaver Wantabe Club....

The tragedy is that every once in the while one of the customers forgets that it's just hot air and horseshit, and shoots a postman or blows up a day care center to strike against "tyranny."

[MrBenchley]

71. No, he hasn't changed a thing.....

as a glance at any on-line gun owners forum will tell....

All he's done is try to peddle the NRA's lies about the meaning of the Second Amendment as official doctrine....which has been a stinker from start to finish.

[guruoo]

39. It's a pretty common misconception, however,

Bush changed everything as far as guns and libs are concerned.

[MrBenchley]

86. Chimpy didn't change a fucking thing....

"Gun rights" is still shorthand for far right wing craziness and racism, the gun lobby is still the scum of the earth, and the Second Amendment still refers to well-regulated state militias.

[guruoo]

94. Easy to say

if you haven't had rightwingnuts posting
your address, photos of your home,
your car's licence plate, your travel
routes, and even other more detailed personal
information online within the thinly
veiled context of 'here they are, go get 'em'.

[MrBenchley]

95. Accurate to say. too....

Chimpy hasn't changed a goddamn thing...

P.S.: Call the cops and the FBI.

[guruoo]

98. You call the FBI

Try 'splaining it to them.
You see Mr. Goss, there's these rightwing, I mean
Republicans, no, no please don't take this personally but
these are rightwing people, you know, real wackos, like
errr, ahh, that have threatened, ahh, my family,
and, ahhh you see...


On edit, Issue fatigue here -Porter Goss is actually head of the CIA, not the FBI.
But I think you get the point.

[MrBenchley]

100. No, I think I'll wave my popgun and spout right wing rubbish

pretending it's "liberal." (snicker)

[guruoo]

102. I might have responded this same way you have....

six years ago.
You do what you feel is best for you and yours.
:hi:

[MrBenchley]

112. I will...

and that includes gun control, as the overwhelming majority of citizens in this country want......

[guruoo]

118. Good luck n/t

[Bluzmann57]

31. Now that is offensive

There are some fine people in the South, as well as the North who are gun owners. Many of them are highly educated. Obviously, you are not one of them.

[iverglas]

54. talk about offensive

There are some fine people in the South, as well as the North who are gun owners. Many of them are highly educated. Obviously, you are not one of them.

Put words in someone's mouth that he did not speak (i.e. by implying that he said there were no fine people in the South or North who are gun owners, when he said no such thing), and insult him on the basis of your own misrepresentation.

Neat trick.

[stepnw1f]

12. Come On... We All Admire Those Wild West Movies

Republicans are really backward thinking people.

[magellan]

13. Imagine taking your kid to Disney after this passes

Would you?

[electron_blue]

15. forget Disney, do I want to even take my kid to Florida?

[benEzra]

83. It's not illegal to have a gun locked in your car when you go to Disney...

and I suspect a significant percentage of cars in the Disney parking lot have guns locked inside. So?

The law doesn't change that. It's always been legal to have a gun in one's car in Florida, just like in most other states.

[warrens]

21. Like Homer Simpson said when told there was a waiting period

"But I won't be mad in three days."

[RamboLiberal]

24. On this one I side with the NRA

As a CCW holder I feel the employer should not have a right to keep me from the ability to defend myself on the drive to/from work.

And for those who say park on the street - there are some areas where street parking is not available.

If an employer feels an employee cannot be trusted with a weapon stored in their personal vehicle, then the employer should rethink having that person on the payroll.

[guruoo]

44. Ditto that - n/t

[iverglas]

57. on this one?

On this one I side with the NRA

Versus ... ?

As a CCW holder I feel the employer should not have a right to keep me from the ability to defend myself on the drive to/from work.

As an intelligent person, I've figured out that employers have no right, let alone ability, to do any such thing, and that if this bill were defeated they still wouldn't have.

If the law allows my employer to prohibit me from having sex on the lunchroom floor, am I being kept from reproducing?

If I can't figure out a way to reproduce without having sex on the lunchroom floor, I wouldn't seem to be a good candidate for reproduction.

If someone can't figure out how to defend him/herself on the drive to/from work (which seems to me to be pretty much like figuring out which magic potion to use against the bogeymen under one's bed, but that's just me) without parking a vehicle with a firearm in it on his/her employer's property, I'd tend to think s/he isn't a good candidate for firearms ownership in the first place.

[dysfunctional press]

117. if a business owner wants to ban firearms on their property-

that is their right.

if you don't want to comply with the lawful rules your employer sets- you have the right to seek employment elsewhere.

[KamaAina]

27. Remember, folks, guns don't kill people, cars kill people

:eyes:

[Bluzmann57]

30. Have to go with the business owners on this one

Part of their responsibilty is to provide a safe work place for employees and customers alike. If a person is having a bad day at work, what's to say they won't go to the vehicle, grab a gun, and start shooting the place up? That seems pretty basic to me. I would think that Florida Labor Unions would join the business people in keeping guns out of the workplace.

[slackmaster]

33. If jobs suck that badly, the business owners should shoulder the blame

Nobody should ever have a day at work that's bad enough to make them freak out and kill people.

Personally I don't care - Nobody can SAY anything to me that will get me pissed off enough to commit a violent act. I, and I believe most mature people, will walk away from a situation long before it comes to blows.

[guruoo]

67. Only one problem....

it's unenforceable.

[SlipperySlope]

32. This needs to be FEDERAL law and not STATE law

I don't want us to have to fight this battle in all fifty states. Instead we should be going for a federal premption that guarantees ALL citizens the right to keep their lawfully-owned firearm in their vehicle.

[guruoo]

43. Per carry permit, or in the trunk...

Has to be kept out of driver's reach
if you don't have a carry permit.

[SlipperySlope]

68. Absolutely...

I absolutely support that the weapon in the vehicle needs to be secured when unattended.

[Pavulon]

77. Yep

Someone will steal it if it is in plain sight.

I have a ccw so I leave a weapon in the center console. A no no if you do not have a ccw. Secured in the dash or in the trunk is safer for everyone.

I do not have kids. I will have to re-evaluate this when I do.

[sandnsea]

34. I can see a hunting rifle

Because there are times people bring their hunting rifle and plan to take off an hour or two early for an evening hunt. But on the face of it, this is insane to have guns all over the work place. If this gun thing gets any crazier, I'm moving to a gun free city.

[Township75]

56. Try Chicago...

handguns are banned and you can freely walk through the city 24-7 knowing that no one is allowed to be carrying a handgun.

Get thee there now!

[guruoo]

65. Yeah

:rofl:

[Endangered Specie]

124. zing! how about D.C.?

:thumbsup:

[alarimer]

37. Let's make workplace shootings even easier

I HATE the fucking NRA. Gun nuts.

[guruoo]

42. What's stopping people from carring anyway?

How's an employer going to know it's in your car?

[Kodiaz]

47. Please don't come to Fl

Please stay where you are don't visit and please don't move here. Florida is a free state and we'd like to keep it that way. I'd hate for a bunch of you to move here and pass all kinds of victim disarmament laws so criminals could be guaranteed that law abiding citizens have no method of defending themselves. Did you ever consider that the reason people shoot up schools and post offices is because that is one of the places that law abiding citizens are not able to defend themselves. Britain has lots of gun control, but somehow that tiny little island has twice as much violent crime as the U.S. I wonder why that is?

[guruoo]

50. What post are you responding to?

Couldn't have been mine.
Haven't been pro gun control since 2000.
You see, BushCo has given me a new appreciation for the
value of a well-armed citizenry.

[guruoo]

55. You sure about this?

''Britain has lots of gun control, but somehow that tiny little island
has twice as much violent crime as the U.S. I wonder why that is?''

[guruoo]

58. Forgot -Welcome to DU

That's right, Bush changed everything.
The left-right arms gap just ain't what it used to be.
Think about that.

[HockeyMom]

60. Shootings

This happened about 5 years before I started here. Our Director at a recent meeting brought this up again. One of the female employees ex husband was stalking her and threatened to kill her. So she brought her gun to work with her and kept it in her LOCKED CAR. One day her ex broke into her locked car in the parking lot, waited for her to get out of work, and shot her WITH HER OWN GUN as she approached her car. Fortunately, she recovered. So tell me, did her gun help her? Do you SERIOUSLY think if anybody else had been carrying a gun ON THEIR PERSON they would have been able to react FAST enough to help? This was at mental health facility. As the Director said, it could have been a massacre if a patient had managed to get that gun. She said any employee found to have a gun on their person or in their LOCKED CARS, would be FIRED upon the spot.

Second real life story about guns and SCHOOLS. This incident severely traumatized my daughter. Seven years later she still has dreams about it. Mr. G. was her HS Biology teacher. Apparently, he had gone through a very messy divorce and seemed depressed over it. One morning as she was about to get on the bus for school, we got a phone call saying that all morning classes were canceled. The custodian had found Mr. G dead. He had put a gun in his mouth and killed himself in the Science Lab. Thank God, he had been found before one of the KIDS had found him. My daughter dropped out of that class and refused to set foot in the Science Lab until her last year of HS. No, guns and schools don't mix either. I have also worked in the schools myself as a TA. NO WAY, would I EVER bring a gun into a school.

And before you start ranting about law abiding citizens defending themselves, I will tell that I HAVE defended myself TWICE against an attack, as a 5'1", 100 lb woman, WITHOUT a gun, using whatever was available to me at those times. The element of SURPRISE is a wonderful WEAPON.

What is WRONG with you people?

[guruoo]

64. I'll take my chances, thank you

[raccoon]

79. Thank you, HockeyMom! nt

[SidDithers]

78. Yeah, good thing Florida doesn't rely on tourism...

for a huge part of their state economy.

Oh, wait. Nevermind.

Sid

[iverglas]

88. ah, what I wonder

Britain has lots of gun control, but somehow that tiny little island has twice as much violent crime as the U.S. I wonder why that is?

... is where some people get their disinformation ... and where they come from when they show up here spewing it around ...

[oneighty]

45. Oh boy!

Free guns in parking lots. Just saying while you all are working others gonna be gathering guns.

I used to carry made me feel ten feet tall and stupid.

180

[Taverner]

48. Ehhhh Stupid NRA

They give responsible pro-gun types a bad name....this bill is meant only to inflame.

PErsonally I don't give a rats ass if someone keeps a gun in their car, as long as they don't use it....

[guruoo]

51. Traditional NRA foaming mouth stupidity, it is...

They just can't shake that "cold dead hands" mindset.

[superconnected]

61. If it passes, I'll start making bets on how long before

workplace shootings go up because some gun owner had the weapon(s) readily available.

gotta love the nra. Everytime I talk to a glazed over gun nut they eminate 2 things - fear and paranoia.

[guruoo]

63. I really wonder what the intentions of the law's supporters are,

as I can't see anything that would currently prevent someone
from keeping a weapon in their car at work.
How's an employer going to know if you don't tell anyone?

[iverglas]

89. "How's an employer going to know if you don't tell anyone?"

Well, when the stalking ex-husband breaks into the car and kills his estranged wife as she leaves the building, I think that might be a clue. How 'bout you?

[guruoo]

93. How does this make your point...

regarding the appairent unenforceability of rules banning
weapons in one's car at their workplace?
What are you going to do, search every car, every
time they drive into a parking lot?

I'm open to what you're saying,
just tell me how these rules can be enforced.

:shrug:

[iverglas]

96. "just tell me how these rules can be enforced."

Ah, if it isn't the perennial pointless question.

How are most rules in our societies enforced? C'mon, I'm sure you can tell us.

Let me assist you: by punishing people who are determined to have broken them.

The rule against stealing things doesn't stop people from stealing things. And certainly people steal things all the time and don't get caught at all. If it comes to the attention of the rule-enforcing authority that someone has stolen something, then s/he will be punished.

Enforcement of all rules is pretty much post facto, doncha think?

And yet ... a lot of people obey those rules, even if only because they fear the consequences if they get caught breaking them, and even if the possibility of getting caught seems remote.

But some people seem to think that the ordinary methods of rule-enforcement don't apply to their pet peeve rules, even though they apply to most others.

Sometimes, a third party knows about the breach of a rule and reports it to the rule-enforcing authority. Sometimes the rule-enforcing authority has some other reason to suspect that a rule is being broken, and undertakes investigative action to determine whether the suspicion is founded. Sometimes, the authority has the power to investigate even without suspicion: in this case, an employer really could conduct surprise spot-searches at the entrance to the company parking lot (and anyone not wanting his/her car searched could just decline to enter the lot, right?).

Sometimes, people working for an employer really do just decide that they should comply with the rules that the employer has made to govern their employment. An employer might be able to increase adherence to a rule by undertaking efforts to increase adherence to the values underlying the rules, for instance employee education programs such as are used in the case of anti-harassment policies. A post in this thread contains a description of one employer's effort to explain a no-firearm policy for vehicles and promote adherence to it by raising awareness of the reasons for it.

But hell, maybe firearms owners are just different. Maybe they really do believe that rules don't apply to them, and really are immune to all attempts to persuade them that the rules are beneficial or even just to persuade them to comply with the rules. They may be overgrown adolescents who believe that the consequences of risky behaviour like rule-breaking will never happen to them. I dunno. You?

[guruoo]

106. I understand you point, and

do sympathize with your feeling on this.
And, I would have agreed with you 100% -six years ago.
But times have changed, and now the bottom line for me is that
I'm going to do whatever I feel is necessary
to protect myself, and my family.

[guruoo]

107. This post may help you to understand

why I so strongly feel the way I do about this issue...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2094326&mesg_id=2096501

[superconnected]

62. WAIT A MINUTE - MY MOMS CAR WAS STOLEN SATURDAY

We got it back with the window smashed out saturday night.

My car was stolen last year.

My ex-bf's car was stolen too. My neighbors car has been stolen 3 times.

FUCKING BAD IDEA TO LEAVE GUNS IN CARS.

[iverglas]

99. if there had been a firearm in it

then that would have been one of the 340,000 or so incidents every year in which firearms are stolen in the US -- with as many as double that number of firearms stolen in total.

I'll bet that if there had been a firearm in the car whose window was broken, and it was safely tucked into that console thingy as one poster described here, the person who broke the window would never have found it. Criminals are stupid that way.

Hell, the one who broke into my car in downtown Toronto managed to find the $2 US bill among the junk in my glove box ...

Guns in cars ... excellent self-defence mechanisms ... for people who break into and steal cars. Amazingly like guns in homes.

[leesa]

69. KaaaaChing! All you dolts that fell for the second amendment nonsense

It's all about selling armaments and making a buck off your fear...manufactured coutesy of MSRNCABCCNNETC

Wake the FUCK UP America

[Vidar]

70. NRA supports 38s in breakfast ceral.

[splat@14]

74. I agree, why should postal workers have all the fun. n/t

[benEzra]

82. Guns are already legal in cars in Florida...

the new law reaffirms the idea that your car is YOUR property and does not belong to your employer. As it should be.

I lived in Florida for a decade, and never encountered any entity that banned guns from being securely locked away in vehicles they did not own. Looks like a few giant multinationals do think they own their employees' cars, though. I see no reason to defend them.

Do you honestly think a "no guns allowed" sign in the parking lot is going to stop someone with criminal intent? Last time I check, murdering people was also against the company handbook, and if someone is willing to ignore that policy, they probably won't obey the "no guns allowed" sign either.

[northzax]

105. but my parking lot is MY property

assuming I own or lease it, that is. why does your right to carry a firearm trump my right to forbid firearms on my property?

[guruoo]

108. You absolutely do have that right....

but how to you propose to enforce it?
I suppose you could hire people to search
every car that's driven on your
property, but what would that do for business?

[northzax]

110. I have no desire to, one way or the other

but this bill would forbid me from posting a sign saying 'no firearms permitted on this property' If you then want to disregard my wishes, that's your problem. It makes you the rule-breaker, not me.

[guruoo]

114. I understand completely and

I don't believe the NRA's law is necessary.

[iverglas]

119. so, what ...

... you'll just keep asking the question and ignoring answers?

You ask the question:

"just tell me how these rules can be enforced."

I answer it. You respond to my answer without addressing anything I said. And now you're back here with the same question:

but how to you propose to enforce it?

Absence of sincere desire to discuss the issue you chose to raise, perhaps?

In any event, what's your point? How would a rule being "unenforcable" (even if it were) justify a statutory prohibition on making the rule? How would the allegedly bad effect on anyone's business of searching cars to secure compliance with a rule justify a statutory prohibition on making the rule? If you're not saying that the alleged unenforceability of the rule, or the alleged ill effects of undertaking any effort to secure compliance with the rule, justifies a statutory prohibition on making the rule, what's your point?

Red herring, anyone?

[guruoo]

122. I'm not at all against property owners prohibiting

gun possession on their property.
To me, they have a perfect right to do so
without fear of government interference.

[benEzra]

109. The law was prompted by people who wanted to search people's cars...

and while my car may be parked on your property, the trunk of the car, and its contents, are my property, not yours.

If I am on your property, you do have the right to ask be not to be armed while I am on your property. The problem comes when you want to disarm me while I go everywhere else, by dictating what I may and may not have locked away inside my property, the car.

When I go to my local mall, I'm not allowed to carry even though I'm licensed by the state of NC to do so, because the mall is a posted no-carry zone. Fine; I'll lock my firearm securely in the car. The mall does not and IIRC cannot search my car to see whether I have a firearm legally locked in the trunk. These are lots open to public access, after all.

[northzax]

111. so I restrict access to my parking lot

and say, as a condition of parking there, that you do not carry a firearm onto the property. Even locked in your trunk. If you don't want to abide by my restrictions, don't park on my property. I'm not the government, the Constitution ends at my property line. I can ban speech, I can enforce a dress code, I can ban guns, I probably can't engage in cruel and unusual punishment, but I can certinaly enforce searches of vehicles entering my property, if I so wish.

[iverglas]

120. if you think that a mall cannot make a search

a condition of *entering* its property -- or agreement to a subsequent search a condition of entering its property -- you're not recalling whatever you think you're recalling correctly, I'd say. If a mall posts its parking lot as being a place where firearms are prohibited, then firearms are prohibited.

Ever notice those signs at the entrances to stores? "We reserve the right to inspect parcels"? It may be badly worded, but it means: if you enter here, you do so on our conditions; one of our conditions is that you agree to having your parcels searched; and by entering, you express your acceptance of that condition.

Pretty simple matter for an employer to inform its employees that if they bring their vehicle onto company property, they are expressing consent to their vehicle being searched for firearms.

[guruoo]

126. First logical response

Congratulations!

'Pretty simple matter for an employer to inform its
employees that if they bring their vehicle onto company
property, they are expressing consent to their vehicle
being searched for firearms.'

:donut:

[shanti]

87. are they insane??

wait, don't answer this...:(

[MrBenchley]

91. That's why they call them "gun NUTS"...

[bobaloo2]

97. Thanks for the reminder

Sure nice to stop by DU and see myself described as a racist, bigoted, imbecile, redneck moron and so forth because of the heinous crime of belonging to the NRA and supporting my right to defend myself. I wonder what would happen if I applied those terms to some other groups discussed here?

Funny, I've never voted for a Republican in my life, for 40 or so years of my 50 considered myself a Democrat. Lately I've changed my registration to Independent because I no longer feel like the Democratic party represents me.

Every once in a while I come by and read DU and see that completely confirmed. Maybe where you live these attitudes are in the majority, but you might want to get out and mingle with the great unwashed masses and see how common they are, it might give you some ideas for election strategies.

[MrBenchley]

101. Any time! LOL!

"you might want to get out and mingle with the great unwashed masses"
Guess we can add "elitist" to that laundry list, too (snicker)....

But then, NRA members have just the nicest playmates...



By the way, it sure is inspiring how those Democrats who claim to be members of the NRA protest aloud when that group honors some right wing fuckwit like Dick Cheney or Tom Delay...oh, that's right. They don't say boo.

"it might give you some ideas for election strategies"
It already does.

What I find funniest is the trigger-happy posters here pretending that there are specimens out there who are perfectly okay now with institutionalized corruption, a war based on lies, open bigotry, a collapsing economy, and demonstrated incompetence, but who would switch parties in a heartbeat if the Democratic party pretended they had imaginary rights to a popgun, as the GOP has.

[Endangered Specie]

125. you may want to consider that not all gun owners are NRA members

or supporters for that matter.

[MrBenchley]

129. Sure is inspiring how they speak out against the NRA...oh they don't...

evidently having the nation's leading gun organization, headed by racists, loonies and criminals, honor scummy politicans like Cheney, Jebbo and Delay is just hunky-dory.....

[Endangered Specie]

131. I have been known to bash them.

and the best way to undermine them is for a DEMOCRATIC pro gun group to gain prominance... that I would support gladly

[MrBenchley]

138. Yeah, surrrrrrrrre.....

It shows (snicker).....

[Endangered Specie]

121. You will always have loudmouthed people on DU

who will call you all sorts of names because of one issue or another.

Some polls of DU indicate that pro gun leanings are pretty high.

[iverglas]

128. "Some polls of DU indicate that pro gun leanings are pretty high."

And here I was just thinking of saying how this thread has somehow managed to attract something other than the usual suspects ... and things aren't going quite so well for the "pro gun leanings" crowd ...

[MrBenchley]

130. I'm sure by now one of the pro-gun cesspools has linked to it

So their dittohead members can troll in....

[Endangered Specie]

132. still can't admit to the possibility that democratic/progressive support

for guns and RKBA rights is gaining strength?

[MrBenchley]

137. That's still as phony as Mary Rosh's numbers...

As a glance at any gun nut forum will tell you.

[Akoto]

104. I'm glad that I'm moving up north next month.

I've lived in Florida for all of my life, and it has turned into bizarro world since I was a kid. The people are jerks and the government leaves a lot to be desired.

[dysfunctional press]

113. parking lots are PRIVATE PROPERTY-

if the owner of that property wants to prohibit guns on THEIR PROPERTY- they have the right to do so.

[guruoo]

116. Absolutely, 100% correct...

and you get to search the cars.

[dysfunctional press]

136. If the car is on YOUR property, and you're so inclined, yes...

after all- someone might have a nuk-u-lar weapon in the trunk.

[-..__...]

115. Does this mean that canteen truck owners will be able to sell ammo?

"Lets see... one 3 day old tuna salad sandwich, a piss-warm diet Pepsi, a bag of stale potato chips and
one box of corroded 9mm hollow points". "That'll be $13.45".

[Endangered Specie]

127. can you supersize it?

[Endangered Specie]

123. You know, Ive always been for WORKERS rights...

see no reason why that shouldn't apply here.

[flashdebadge]

133. Businesses should be able to prohibit firearms on their property. I don't

want to worry that some nut job that gets fired is going to go out to his car and come back giving his impersonation of Josey Wales. :nuke:

[Seabiscuit]

134. Why would anyone want a gun in their car at a workplace parkinglot

anyway, unless they wanted to be able to blow away a co-worker or boss?

[Telly Savalas]

135. An unattended car sounds like an excellent place to store a firearm.

Given how rare it is for people to break into cars, there's pretty much zero chance the gun would get stolen. This measure sounds like an excellent way to keep illegal stolen guns out of the hands of criminals. Great work, NRA!

[yellowcanine]

148. Yep they might as well call it the "free guns for criminals act"

[MrBenchley]

139. A gun law so crazy even Florida won't pass it....

Guess the GOP and the gun lobby will have to try again...and you know the fuckwits doen in Jebbo's banana republic will, too.

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=697

[leesa]

140. Good. It will save time if they don't have to go home to get their arms

to blow away their co-workers after they are fired.

[okieinpain]

146. yeah, they are all down with this until some blacks, and hispanics

cap a couple of white people and get off because they were afraid for their lives.

[Paladin]

150. kick

n/t