Bush faces Congress revolt over spying

[sabra]

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20060208&ID=5489703

Bush faces Congress revolt over spying

Congressional Republicans are threatening to force a legal showdown with President George W. Bush over his claim that he has the constitutional power to order domestic surveillance of Americans in the name of national security.

Arlen Specter, Republican chairman of the Senate judiciary committee, said on Wednesday he was drafting legislation that would require the administration to seek a ruling from a special US intelligence court on whether the spying programme was legal.

The move could put the Republican-controlled Congress on a collision course with the administration, which has insisted that it is acting legally in monitoring calls and e-mails that might help disrupt future terrorist plots.

...

Mr Specter said his proposed legislation would require the administration to take that issue to the Fisa court. He said the administration's claim "may be right, but on the other hand they may be wrong".

[Kagemusha]

1. Legislation to make the Executive do something, in time of war?

Why, Arlen, you can't do that. Unification of powers and all that.

[skids]

2. I bet the guy who resigned from FISA...

...is kicking himself about now.

[FormerRepublican]

4. No, he was right. If he hadn't done it, people wouldn't be listening...

[skids]

13. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and all...

...still I bet he wonders/wishes he'd be in that hearing.

[stepnw1f]

3. Fuck That... Impeach the Prick!!!!!!

Don't give us this white washing crap. He broke the fucking law for political reasons. He outed a goddamn a covert CIA agent. They are TRAITORS to the country you spineless political tool!!

[wtmusic]

14. exactly...we'll find out if he's "right or wrong"

when he's impeached

[fooj]

16. That's right. If there's any doubt that the President "might be wrong"

IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS are in order!

Peace.

[ClintonTyree]

48. No, they'll just write a new law that specifically DOES give him the power

and forget all about these past little indiscretions as if they never happened. A little slap on the wrist, a small "now georgie, you overstepped your power" and that will be the end of it. Everything will be forgotten and he'll have gotten away with it. Congressional Republicans are not going to utter the word impeachment over something as trivial as this. Now, if there was SEX involved........

[Surya Gayatri]

58. I'm afraid I have to agree with you, Clinton...

the danger being that this so-called Reep revolt is nothing but an attempt to hijack the debate & pre-empt any impeachment moves when & if the Dems regain the majority.
"But we've already dealt with the problem through that 'slap on the wrist' legislation during the last session". More smoke & mirrors...SG

[Jawja]

61. But they can't do that.

they specifically cited the Constitution when it came to Clinton. "IMPEACHMENT was the remedy and the ONLY remedy set forth by the Constitution."

In other words, their hypocricy knows NO BOUNDS. :mad:

[Surya Gayatri]

74. Hypocrisy? Neo-Cons have taken the meaning

of the word into new, uncharted waters--heretofore unknown regions of double-speak, propaganda & obfuscation. SG

[PurpleChez]

87. And yet, they've fooled a huge number of people (although, it would seem,

no longer a majority) that they somehow stand for honesty and integrity and all that. People are mindbendingly stupid.

[reprobate]

89. Congress critters are far too jealous of their power to let that happen.

[xxqqqzme]

92. indiscretions of youth

is how I believed raisen brain explained his first 40 years of wasting space.

[MissWaverly]

105. I don't think so

because when Arlen suggested a little legal maneuvering to Gonzales to fit the bill, he
got back a snarky response which basically said that the president can do what he wants.
You have to realize that Bush has been sealed off and does not realize how angry people
are. He still thinks if they play it just right they can win the American people over
on trusting him with all the power. It is not going to happen.

[wordpix]

62. going to war with LIES as justification is enough of a high crime even

without the NSA spying---but the repukes love their power grabbing

[rocktivity]

64. DING DING DING! Stepnw1f, you're our grand prize winner!

Fuck That...Impeach the Prick!!!!!!
Showdown schmo-down. How many Repub congressional reps would it take to cross the aisle and prepare articles of impeachment? THAT'S what they ought to be talking about--especially if the voters call for impeachment!

:headbang:
rocknation

[napi21]

5. 'Twill be interesting to see who wins on this one!

I think all the Dems should be anti-spying without a warrant, but the surprise is that there are more than the usual Pubs too!

I've read about the Rove Black List for any Pub who won't stick with the WH on this, but I konw Arlan isn't up for re-election for 5 years, and how many of the others on the Judiciary committee are...I don't know.

It's about time the old fashioned Pub tell Rove shere he can file his ideas!

[Zen Democrat]

15. 3 Repubs on Judiciary up for reelection this year ...

DeWine, Hatch and Kyl. I think Hatch and Kyl are safely in the tank with Rove, DeWine is on the line.

[Botany]

18. Ohio is ?able the level of corpution in this state is huge

flip votes .... yes
access to central tabulators by blackwell .... yes
tons of died in the wool fundy dumb ass shits .... yes

But I met Paul Hackett today ..... he would be very tough to beat in the general election .....
he is everything that DeWine is not.

DeWine has very low #s in this state if he wins it will cause a major stink.

[AndyTiedye]

35. Hackett's Great, Too Bad He's In Ohio

If Blackwell can turn 65-35 YES into 65-35 NO, what chance does Hackett have?

[Botany]

37. got a point.

i worked on those issues .....

but a senate race that ran 60% + for the dems would be hard to hide. Although, after
the issue races the media and almost everybody else fell in line. I canvassed for those
issues and after 2 weekends I got 3 negative comments .... funny, the vote from that
precincts were 2 and 3 to one against them.

Almost guaranteed we will lose Ohio this fall but that does not mean we can't spit in the
devil's eye just for hell of it.

[napi21]

38. What kind of competition are they facing?

I have to believe Hatch is safe! He's been in the Seante for a lifetime, and as far as I know, his constituents like him. I don't know about the other two.

Spector is safe for 5 years, and by then I suspect he won't run anyway. He's the Chairman, so it depends on getting 3 other Sens on that committee!

I think the committee is set up with 8 Dems & 11 Pubs, so what do we need here? If we get the 8 Dems (which is pretty sure) do we need 4 of the Pubs? (8+4=12) to find...WHAT?

What really happens if there is a majority of Pubs that find there's a problem with what Shrub is doing? I guess it's a vote in the Senate, but I'm not sure!

[KansDem]

6. Let me see if I understand this...

Sen. Specter wants the Bushistas to seek a ruling from the FISA court to determine if it was illegal to ignore the FISA court?

I think I see method in his madness, but man, does my head hurt! :crazy:

[MissWaverly]

106. After Gonzales gave him a no go on a Congressional bill to

resolve Bush's difficulty with the existing system. I think he's trying to give Team Bush a refresher course in the 3 branches of government.

[PerceptionManagement]

7. I think Chimpy could be found cannibalizing children in the Rose Garden

and the Congress would yawn.

[pretzel4gore]

10. not congress, it's the pigmedia

the 800 pound gorrilla in the room is the newsmedia, the lying bullshit newsmedia! congress knows it's basically powerless faced with the pigmedia....

[Cha]

12. Maybe the fucking yawning

American people would wake the fuck up!

[0007]

102. Only when they get slapped around for bitching and bad mouthing

the prez will they wake up.

[Botany]

8. Might be happening

"I have a duty to uphold the law."

Heather Wilson (R) New Mexico.
http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/nw_state/article/0,2564,ALBQ_19863_4450519,00.html

No way to spin it ..... bush broke the law/

Just a matter of time


* =

[emulatorloo]

9. kick and Nominated n/t

[humbled_opinion]

11. Interesting Dillema in Politics

If you break the law and then the legislature rewrites the law you broke so that you can continue to break the law only legally this time is that legal?

[wtmusic]

19. If it was illegal when you committed the act

you're on the hook.

[humbled_opinion]

25. Whitewashed...

So the objective then will be to rewrite the laws now... but to say that no law was ever really broken because the Presidential authority of Article 2 trumped the faulty law before we fixed it.. but since we want the public to be clear that this is strictly for the Terraists we rewrote the law...

Apparently they will spin and blame the law itself for the fact that it was broken...

[wtmusic]

32. that seems like an accurate assessment

and welcome to DU humbled_opinion!

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[wordpix]

66. reminds me of our town's "after the fact" land use permits for violating

regulations by building something without a permit. After a landowner builds his development, he can go for the permit "after the fact." Ass backwards.

Oh, come to think of it: our town is run by the Repugs, too.

[OrwellwasRight]

65. Good question.

WElcome to DU :hi:

[bpilgrim]

17. the country is gonna be in revolt

if our reps don't ACT!



peace

[truthisfreedom]

20. does that picture show bush sneaking a

fart? what's up with his feet? didn't anyone explain to him that they should be on the floor? he looks like an old man who's lost his bearing.

[ima_sinnic]

26. he looks like he needs some Preparation H (nt)

[woodcutter]

56. Gotta Go, Gotta Go......

Gotta Go Go Go!

[lancdem]

86. LOL, I don't think he's sneaking anything with the camera on him

At least he's sticking his ass away from Laura.

[calimary]

22. Nice scowl lines, laura.

I guess the king and queen were a little bit uncomfortable in their thrones there. Uneasy lies the head that wears the self-anointed crown.

[mark11727]

49. OMG --- just look at the body language on those two...!

Not. Happy. People. :)

[angryxyouth]

54. I have said this on a few occations on DU and Raw....

People of color are the ones who will be leading the revolution. Everyone else is too fat and happy. I hope that this event was the spark.:patriot:

[angryxyouth]

55. Sorry about the mis-spell, it happens.

[calimary]

21. K&R!

We should encourage this, folks! Any of you with republi-CON representatives should call in and exhort them, urge them, beg them - to stand up to bush and run with this.

The more dissention in the ranks, the better. Might take a little of the luster of invincibility in which kkkarl rove likes to wrap himself. After all, if it's Congress, they're ALL up for reelection in November, along with a third of the Senate. rove has threatened to blacklist all GOPers who defy him and bush on this - by saying they'd get no White House help in their fall campaigns. Well, not ALL the republi-CON senators are up for reelection (dammit!) so people like Arlen Specter are turning a deaf ear. But I do remember Keith Olbermann offering an aside on last night's show - wondering whether there will be republi-CONS running for reelection who would actually want to have bush help them campaign by then. It may be a threat with no teeth. Even so, EVERYTHING and ANYTHING we can do to sow dissention in the ranks is a good thing.

[wtmusic]

23. Arlen's weaseling on this already

Now he's "drafting legislation that would require the administration to seek a ruling from a special US intelligence court on whether the spying programme was legal".

So we have to pass a law to require a suspect to go to court to see if he broke another law...COME OFF IT!! WTF already!!!

[grasswire]

44. a "special" court

What the hell does that mean?

Jabberwocky. Bushwah.

[wtmusic]

45. Piffle! Poppycock!

Sorry...I get sort of worked up :o

[Kierkegaard]

101. As we've all heard, the wheels of justice turn slowly...

but, these days, they seem to be turning in the wrong freakin' direction.

[Rose Siding]

24. They're going to "legislate" around the crime and bush'll skate

*if* we don't retake Congress. Any noise repubs are making about this now are all electoral politics. Even then it will all be uphill. When rules are observed, a minority still has some sway.

[rodeodance]

27. and the WH is starting to talk (a little to some)

White House Gives Details on Surveillance

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5603679...

By KATHERINE SHRADER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) — After weeks of insisting it would not reveal details of its domestic eavesdropping, the White House reversed course Wednesday and provided a House committee with highly classified information about the program.

The White House has been under heavy pressure from lawmakers who wanted more information about the National Security Agency's monitoring. Democrats and many Republicans rejected the administration's implicit suggestion that they could not be trusted with national security secrets.

The shift came after Rep. Heather Wilson, R-N.M., chairwoman of a House Intelligence Committee subcommittee, broke with the Bush administration and called for a full review of the NSA's program, along with legislative action to update the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

``I think we've had a tremendous impact today,'' Wilson said at a news conference as Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Gen. Michael Hayden, the nation's No. 2 intelligence official, briefed the House panel on technical and tactical intelligence.

[Straight Shooter]

29. Some on DU were saying earlier to watch out for Wilson, she's a snake.

These DU'ers were saying the WH probably put her up to it, getting her front and center as some sort of lightning rod of pressuring the administration about the surveillance.

Looks like they were right. Now they can claim they've produced documents and, oh, by the way, ain't everything just hunky-dory now.

Phew, I smell a skunk and its name is Heather.

[caledesi]

97. I just read on another site that the new Rep majority leader wants

the spying investigated. Boehner? I am so tired...think that is his name. Can't remember site I read this on....sry.

[pberq]

30. Thanks for posting this - It sounds positive, but I'm not getting

my hopes up.

[mom cat]

28. What a ruse by a slimy sneek.

Why not just pass another law that says it is illegal! Of course, if it goes into the court system, eventually, Alito will get to help decide whether King George broke the law. I have no doubts about his decision. I have a permanent rage against the Alito Traitors.

[BlueStateBlue]

31. Hence the terra alert at the Russell office building in DC

Gives 'em a chance to plant a few bugs while everyone's evacuated.

:puke:

[IndianaGreen]

33. Al-Qaeda's Number Two spotted near Grand Central Station!

Red Alert! Shields! Fire Phasers!

[sabra]

34. nope, just Michael Moore...

[Roland99]

72. You very well could be right.

[leesa]

36. You fucking Republican treasonous cowards.

[PVK]

39. They're playing games. Trying to get a ruling back that it's "legal".

Case closed.

Arlen Specter and Heather Wilson going AGAINST Bush?

C'mon. Get real.

[wtmusic]

46. Let's rewrite the law to absolve the crime

:silly:

[Mnemosyne]

52. That's what Specter said on the floor yesterday!

"If what the president was doing was illegal we need to change the law."

I almost fell off my chair! Isn't that changing the Constitution? Or just FISA?

[Surya Gayatri]

59. Mind boggling effrontery!

If the Shrub's been breaking the law, we'll just change said law (FISA) retroactively to absolve him! Do they have any idea how obvious they are? I suspect they do, but don't give a rat's ass. They're in the majority! SG

:wtf:

[Mnemosyne]

73. And that from the Chair of the Senate

Judiciary Committee! Mind boggling effrontery is right!

They could not care any less how it looks anymore. It shows complete contempt for the law, the Constitution and for their constituents. They believe us all to be complete dumbasses, and the fact that they are in office at all tends to confirm that.

[Surya Gayatri]

78. LOL! You said it...the fact that they're in office at all

is the most damning indictment of the American electorate. SG

[Mnemosyne]

93. Ramen! n/t

[wtmusic]

60. That would be changing FISA

but to my understanding the whole purpose of FISA was to clarify the scope of the 4th Amendment. What it's doing is changing the interpretation of the Constitution, and radically at that.

More important is this push to make the President unaccountable for his actions. We can't let that stand. The whole thing reeks of dark forces at work; of backroom deals and private phone calls. With this administration in power, I suspect more and more that nothing less than the survival of America is at stake.

[Mnemosyne]

68. Specter is my Senator.

I was so outraged I had to stop myself from calling his office yesterday. I am writing a letter instead. I knew I would end up in jail if I called. :nuke: :grr:

I agree wtmusic, the very survival of America IS at stake. But I believe it goes further than that. I believe that the safety of the entire planet may be at stake with these evil pricks running the country. They are going after the control of space! Raygun's Star Wars is alive and well, though I think they renamed it.

In peace and hope,
V

[wtmusic]

77. I'm a schmuck

last week when Arlen used the i-word to discuss possible outcomes of the spy scandal. In several posts I got overly excited because it looked like he might take a stand on this. Several PA DUers were amused by my enthusiasm and predicted (correctly) that he would buckle.

I still believe he intended to take a stand but something happened. He got a major armtwist from Rove and...buckled.

This is all very depressing.

[Mnemosyne]

94. Put me in the schmuck category too, wtmusic! I had

a few days of hope myself when he was sounded as if he would actually DO something. I had hope right up until he stated that there was no need to swear in Gonzo. Then I :nuke: :nuke:! And I knew it was over. :cry: :grr:

It's human nature to want to have hope I think.:hug: It's just sad that there is so little to be found from our supposed *leaders* in DC at this point.

We get knocked down, but we always get back up again. We will survive. The tough part is wondering how hard is it going to get before it gets better. And waiting.

Waiting is what is making me insane right now and I am a very patient person, always have been. Lately I've been like that old poster - Patience my ass, I want to kill something!" Lucky for * I am nonviolent!:evilgrin:

In peace and hope,
Still,
V

[MissWaverly]

107. that doesn't work with all of Team Bush's spin

You cannot get a free pass on war crimes and torture.

Principles of the
Nuremberg Tribunal, 1950
No. 82
Principles of International Law Recognized in the Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal and in the Judgment of the Tribunal. Adopted by the International Law Commission of the United Nations, 1950.

Principle I
1. Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefor and liable to punishment.
Principle II
The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law.
Principle III
The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible Government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.
Principle IV
The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.
Principle V
Any person charged with a crime under international law has the right to a fair trial on the facts and law.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm

[wordpix]

67. why not? Repukes did it with the ethics rules so Delay's antics would be

found ethical

[Rex]

40. Repukes just want to kiss the devil.

Hold him over the coals and get some kind of control over the loss of taxpayer money to invisible island shelters.

[Akoto]

41. As Admiral Ackbar once said: It's a trap!

I'd love to think that the Republican government has some sort of conscience, and genuinely wants to fight for what's right in this matter, but I just don't have that much faith.

My instinct tells me that this is a ruse. They'll succeed in having it brought to the Supreme Court, which leans in the president's favor these days for obvious reasons. The surveillance will be declared legal (or some technicality will make it so). The president and company can then proclaim that they've done nothing wrong all along, taking the ruling as retroactive consent. Meanwhile, Specter and the remainder of the Republican government can say they stood up for the peoples' rights, thereby attempting to save face against growing accusations that the 'small government' party has become most intrusive, indeed.

Call me tinfoil, but that's my thinking. :tinfoilhat:

[AndyTiedye]

42. It's More than a Trap, the "Unitary Executive" is The End of Our Republic

and its replacement with the dictatorship that ** always wanted.

The USSC comes back with a ruling that says that ** can do whatever he fucking wants,
and it's all over.

But if we all just let him skate, to avoid such a ruling, the effect is exactly the same.

Screwed either way.

If we had filibustered Alito, they would have gone nuclear, of course,
with everything on the line like this,
and Alito would have gotten on the court anyway,
but at least we would have gone down fighting.
:cry:

[PVK]

43. Could it be any more transparent?

I think not.

[KoKo]

53. Agree with what you say. Look how far the Repug Reform of Lobbying

has gone. Tom DeLay just got three new appointments and the movement for Reform has been Deep Sixed.

The way they operate is to declare there's a problem and they are going to clean it all up and then when the puny media has been silenced by the RW'ers sent out to diffuse the issue...in the end Bush gets what he wants because nothing is done. It's onto the next scandal with the previous one forgotton.

[Surya Gayatri]

69. Unfortunately, I don't think you need to don

your tinfoil hat to say this out loud. Sounds like a Rovian double-feint ruse to me--dupe the public into believing the Congressional Reeps are "doin' their job protectin' the people's civil rights", at least until the Nov. elections. Specter & Wilson's marching orders came right from the WH basement strategy room, IMO. SG

[Hekate]

47. I'll believe it when I see them with pitchforks and torches...

... and a dignified panel of Representatives on the House Judiciary Committee, and another panel in the Senate -- men and women as serious about their business as were the ones who met in 1974 to consider the fate of Richard M. Nixon.
Hekate

Remember them? Look for names familiar to us today...

Members of the House Judiciary Committee 1974

Democrats

1.Peter Rodino (D-New Jersey) -
Chairman
2.Harold D. Donohue
(D-Massachusetts)
3.Jack Brooks (D-Texas)
4.Robert W. Kastenmeier
(D-Wisconsin)
5.Don Edwards (D-California)
6.William L. Hungate (D-Missouri)
7.John Conyers (D-Michigan)
8.Joshua Eilberg (D-Pennsylvania)
9.Jerome R. Waldie (D-California)
10.Walter Flowers (D-Alabama)
11.James Mann (D-South Carolina)
12.Paul S. Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
13.John F. Seiberling (D-Ohio)
14.George E. Danielson
(D-California)
15.Robert F. Drinan
(D-Massachusetts)
16.Charles S. Rangel (D-New York)
17.Barbara Jordan (D-Texas)
18.Ray Thornton (D-Arkansas)
19.Elizabeth Holtzman (D-New York)
20.Wayne Owens (D-Utah)
21.Edward Mezvinsky (D-Iowa)

Republicans

1.Edward Hutchinson (R-Michigan)
2.Robert McClory (R-Illinois)
3.Henry P. Smith III (R-New York)
4.Charles W. Sandman Jr. (R-New
Jersey)
5.Tom Railsback (R-Illinois)
6.Charles E. Wiggins (R-California)
7.David Dennis (R-Indiana)
8.Hamilton "Ham" Fish Jr. (R-New
York)
9.Wiley Mayne (R-Iowa)
10.Lawrence J. Hogan (R-Maryland)
11.M. Caldwell Butler (R-Virginia)
12.Delbert L. Latta (R-Ohio)
13.William S. Cohen (R-Maine)
14.Trent Lott (R-Mississippi)
15.Harold V. Froehlich
(R-Wisconsin)
16.Carlos J. Moorhead (R-California)
17.Joseph J. Maraziti (R-New Jersey)

Remember the Senators?
Senate Watergate Committee:

Sam Ervin (Democrat - North Carolina), chair
Howard Baker (Republican - Tennessee), ranking member
Edward J. Gurney (Republican - Florida)
Daniel Inouye (Democrat - Hawaii)
Joseph Montoya (Democrat - New Mexico)
Herman Talmadge (Democrat - Georgia)
Lowell P. Weicker, Jr. (Republican - Connecticut)

[AndyA]

50. This stinks more than

A carp that's been left out on the counter for 2 days! Something's up. I do not trust these people, any of them. After appointing DeLay to the committee that oversees the JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, I don't think they're serious about doing the right thing at all.

This is shameful. It's worse than Watergate. Every one of them should be thrown out on their butts for flagrantly defying the Constitution and abusing the rights of the American people.

[leftchick]

51. Why has no one called on bush to STOP SPYING NOW?

While they are futzing around with all of the political legal crappola the NSA is till spying on americans. Whay hasn't anyone asked them to suspend "the program" until it has been determined if it is legal?

:argh:

[Roland99]

71. A good bumper sticker would be:

Stop The Lying. Stop The Spying
IMPEACH BUSH!

[Surya Gayatri]

76. Because they're marching to Rovian orders...

just following the most recent game plan to confound the opposition and fool the public--'revolt' indeed! The aim of this so-called 'revolt' isn't to stop the spying, but to keep the Reeps in power come Nov. No more, no less. SG

[MissMillie]

57. Methinks they are afraid they will lose some seats if they don't do this

And I think so too.

[stop the bleeding]

63. FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE - ok now that I got y'alls attention

Check out this related thread in the LBN and look at my summaries at posts# 17 and 9 and tell me what you think - is very important.


WaPo: Chief FISA judge warned about misuse of NSA spy data

[Roland99]

70. There's no revolt. It's mere election year posturing.

Anyone getting their hopes up that nonSensebrenner is going to do the right thing is simply delusional.

[johnlal]

75. Congress will not act

The White House holds all the cards. It is the Executive Branch that can make or break Congressmen in the Jack Abramoff prosecutions. The choice to Congressional Republicans is as follows:

1. Go with the flow, keep enjoying their vacations, meals and perks, keep a low profile and hope that the scandal dies down OR

2. Confront the White House, be promptly Swift-Boated, prosecuted, imprisoned, and disgraced.

I might be tempted to keep the Scottish Golf Junkets.

[BookemDano]

79. in the Washington Post

I just read this morning you can go to Buzz flash to get to the story faster but,the Judges in the FISA Court are saying that if what they are doing gets out the judges have said"it is illegal and unconstitutional" go read for the full story but,I must say we Dem's just might get what we want to expose there utter corruption and incompetence and them blatantly breaking the law=)

[stop the bleeding]

80. I said the same thing in post# 63 about 3 or 4 up from here n/t

[BookemDano]

81. Sorry

I didn't read all the threads I will do that from now on its my first time back here after it was shut down yrs ago I am just so happy the DU is back I am young and I do make mistakes I am sorry=(

[stop the bleeding]

83. Doh-my bad, Welcome back to DU BookemDano!!! - my bad - and

I wasn't complaining, I was saying YES YES YES we have same thought process, please goto the post it links to another thread/ the WAPO article, see what I put there. Originally I put it there last night and updated this morning this is a big deleopment.

and again welcome back to DU!!:toast::toast::toast::toast:

[BookemDano]

85. Thank you

It is so nice to be here and great minds do think alike! I am going to it right now to check it out you are wonderful and thank you I look forward to reading your threads and hopefully posting some good stuff myself. I am constantly checking for new news about the shrub and his cronies also good news by me the Dem's out in Long Island where I live are already starting locally to prepare for 06 this is the first time in 60yrs that the Dem's have control of LI!!!!:TOAST:

[wtmusic]

82. welcome to DU BookemDano

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[BookemDano]

111. I Never Got To Thank You

So thank you I am so happy to be a member and I am meeting such smart,articulate,and amazingly informed people!

[Selteri]

84. Even Ben Franklin would have been rallying for a

revolution from this King George. Then again, he thought we needed one every 50 years to stay fresh.

[jfkraus]

88. Bush warns Congress

Does anybody else think the "Nerve Gas" scare yesterday was just a bit coincidental? perhaps Bush is sending a message to Congress? "Don't cross me, or I'll gas you!"

[Generator]

90. I think I've got all the arguments down

Bush "may have" broke the law but he did it for the right reason. He "may have" overstepped but he was DOING IT TO SAVE LIVES DAMMIT. How can you impeach such an innocent well meaning man?

What? Bush says, okay my party may want me to stop doing it and give details. YOU FOOLS I can't do that-it could endanger lives I'm saving right this minute by spying on whomever-can't tell ya who-hee hee-it's for your own good. See I just proved I saved the city of Los Angeles. What more do you want? Nope. I can't tell you anything. We are at war. Watch out! Anthrax alert.

Meanwhile send in Cheney. I'm sure he can make sure the FISA court can see it his way if he visits enough.

[aden_nak]

91. Arlen "We Don't Need To Swear In The Attorney General" Specter? Pfffft.

[johnnyrocket]

95. Man, those Republicans really must hate America..

...and are weak on defense and are idiots and are screwing up this country

...oh wait, I'm NOT being sarcastic!!

[rich4468]

96. I hope the current congress doesn't try to impeach him...

(First time posting... hi all...)

Democrats don't have the votes... period...

And I'll take all of this one step further and postulate that this may be a deliberate move by the Republican Leaders to hold these hearings and move towards "impeachment" as a precautionary move in case the Democrats gain control of one or both houses BECAUSE they know that it will do down in flames...

The question is... if the Republican leadership throws up a kangaroo court around Katrina or the NSA Wiretaps or even the Iraqi intelligence with the expectation that nothing will come of it, will the Democrats be able to pick it up if they gain control in November?

I'm not sure they can and I'm a little wary about getting excited that Specter and a few Republicans in the House are calling for hearings... I don't trust them on this even as much as I've been calling for oversight as much as anyone else...

[Senator Obama]

98. A couple of thoughts...

First welcome to DU, I'm relatively new around here myself.

Great input. I like you smell a rat here too. No question Specter is making a preemptive strike with an eye to mitigate the damage. Right now, I don't buy the Repugs initiating impeachment. No real incentive to go that far. I think the repugs will be thinking we've got an uphill battle to gain House control. They'll do what they can short of drafting impeachment articles to dispose of this matter before November. I think the Dems best chance in the fall is taking the House. Then they could draft impeachment articles early next year. If the Dems gain House control they can open any investigation they like, regardless to whether its been opened before. The Repugs with a Senatorial majority know they can stop conviction in the Senate and possibly even impeachment if and when articles are referred by the House.

Its clear to me that the President broke the law as is. Getting the FISA ruling actually works in favor of the Dems. It should resolve the issue of legality in favor of the Dems. The law is pretty specific. It is the exclusive means by which the executive can authorize and conduct wire surveillance in the US. The president has given us a steady diet of how he consulted with his lawyers and the Justice Department and recieved a concensus that he has presidential authority in an attempt to convince us he has done due diligence. Its just not explanable as to how he felt he could ignore FISA. FISA clarifies the Article 2 (executive branch) powers of the President by speaking specifically to the limits of wiretapping. There is no expressed authority granted to allow for warrantless wiretap inside the US. Clearly in past dealings with the courts, this adminstration was aware that it had an obligation to submit applications for warrants. If I undertand things correctly, they have even been warned of the reservations that the court had of their use of wiretaps and information obtained in the process.

Obama

[desi826]

99. I agree with both of you

Bush is in clear violation of the Constitution, so going after him will definitely mean impeachment.
That means they can't seriously do it.
The problem is that enough of the country is pissed off about his actions and their inaction on this KILLS them.
They should be controlling him.
They are not.

Thing is, I don't know if the "hurry up and do nothing" technique will even help them now.
Des

[rich4468]

104. True...

They may be rushing things along to get the public hearings out of the way so the news cycle moves along in time that people forget it all come November...

Gotta love our Short Attention Span Citizenry...

[bklyncowgirl]

100. Impeachment now could innoculate him against the real thing later.

Can you impeach a President twice for the same crimes?

[rich4468]

103. Well that's what I was wondering...

Does Double Jeopardy apply?

[midnight]

108. What is- the real thing later?

If someone is impeached, and something as criminal is discovered, are they not then required to answer to those crimes?

[Senator Obama]

109. Double jeopardy...

I'm not a lawyer but I'm gonna argue against the applicability of double jeopardy to the impeachment process. I would argue say that an impeachment and even a removal from office is not the equivalent of an actual conviction in a court of law. Impeachment is a political/legislative process and not a legal process administered by the judicial branch.

A for instance is the following. Let's say Nixon had been impeached and removed from office. It would still require a trial in Federal Court to my understanding for him to be formally convicted of a criminal offense. Rules of evidence, preponderance of guilt, and discovery in the impeachment process bear no resemblance to the stricter standards followed in the judicial branch.

Obama

[BookemDano]

112. Am I having a blonde moment

Is this really Sen Obama?If so you were amazing at the convention and I love watching you in the Senate!!Keep Up The Good Fight!!

[Orsino]

110. "Revolt"? He's getting off easy...

...not being impeached.