Contradiction in Arab cartoon views

[Behind the Aegis]

Blatantly anti-Semitic literature is on sale in Cairo, just like many other Arab capitals. The BBC News website's Martin Patience reports on the apparent inconsistency in the Egyptian reaction to the Danish cartoons caricaturing the Prophet Muhammad.

Two hundred metres from the Arab League's headquarters in the Egyptian capital, Cairo, there are two newspaper kiosks on the pavement.

They sell all sorts of Egyptian papers and magazines - including Hijab, a fashion monthly for religious Muslim women showing a cover-girl wearing the latest style of headscarf.

Passing customers can also buy books - trashy romance novels, computer guidebooks, and children's story books.

But on closer inspection, both kiosks openly stock the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious anti-Semitic text that purports to be an account of Jewish plans to rule the world, but was actually written by Tsarist secret police in 1905.

more...

[wake.up.america]

1. Two wrongs make a right. Extremists should wake up.

[Colorado Blue]

2. Interesting, that one of the subjects of the article advises

Jewish people who object to things like "Mein Kampf" and "The Protocols" to hit the streets.

I suppose we could threaten to pelt the long-dead authors with egg noodles in the Great Beyond? Or what?

These books were widely published in the Middle East - The Protocols in 1920 and Mein Kampf, later of course.

Hitler was a big hero in the Arab world. He had a popular song dedicated to him; his name in Arabic is "Abu Ali".

Mein Kampf has recently become a surprise best-seller in Turkey. Books like this are FAR more dangerous than those cartoons, as they damn an entire people and spread the most vicious misinformation - to obviously deadly effect.

The cartoons may be offensive to Muslims, but they don't incite people to hate Muslims. Those books are poisonous. And the fact that, in the Middle East, the Protocols has been serialized on national television in Egypt and beyond, and taught as fact in schoolbooks and on the Hamas website, and Mein Kampf remains a bestseller - that is contributing directly to the conflict and making it impossible for people thus brainwashed to really see Jews as human beings, and not a horrific caricature of humanity.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. You make an outstanding point!

"Mein Kampf has recently become a surprise best-seller in Turkey. Books like this are FAR more dangerous than those cartoons, as they damn an entire people and spread the most vicious misinformation - to obviously deadly effect."

You are also correct, in that, as offensive as the cartoons are, they weren't an incitement for people to hate Muslims. The incitement would be to mock them and their beliefs, which is still offensive. However, the "Protocols" and "Mein Kampf" have decidedly different agendas.

[Ben Ceremos]

4. The cartoons (in the Jutlands Post)

which I have seen repeatedly, are not insulting of the prophet as much as indicative of a fear of Muslim extremism. The reaction by extremists pretty much proves the point. I have yet to find amongst my Muslim friends even one person who would bother to get upset about the idiocy of it all. I am a proponent of freespeech and I SUPPORT THE CARTOONISTS RIGHT to draw what they want. Insults are taken, not necessarily given. I will respect another person, and their rights to freely worship. But I will not support or respect a group that claims they are above criticism. The Muslim prophet is holy to Muslims, but he is not revered by me. So if I want to paint images of their prophet as I see fit, they can STFU and just take it for what it is...namely, EXPRESSION. If a war must be fought to protect our most cherished rights, well, sorry but I'm in...

[JCMach1]

37. I see little difference between the two... they are both

designed to demonize another people...

The rhetorical purpose is different though. One is provocation and the other exultation to the choir to perpetrate violence.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Yet, only one was used as an excuse to the Holocaust.

[JCMach1]

41. Have you forgotten the 'War on Terror' isn't over?

I don't thing the Final Solution had been implemented by 1939 either.

I mean that tongue in cheek... God forbid that there is ever another holocaust...

The bottom-line for me is that racism is a VERY slippery slope and is ALWAYS wrong.

[The Stranger]

9. The hatred flows both ways, and the cartoons were clearly intended

to incite people to hate Muslims. It was very successful.

But territorial conflicts often give rise to hate groups gaining power within populations. The Treaty of Versailles and the seizing of Alsace-Lorraine gave rise to open hatred and the calls for revenge between the French and Germans, and you know where that went.

The main point is not to demonize Arabs as a whole by making overbroad, unsubstantiated statements. Rather, Progressives of all stripes should work together to DE-ESCALATE the hate that is being fomented by those who want war in the media and elsewhere.

[Jim Sagle]

16. The cartoons were VERY clearly NOT so intended, and

everybody goddamn well knows it. All the hate touched off was directed BY Muslims, not AT them.

Except on Opposite Day.

[JCMach1]

40. So no one has ever bombed, killed, missile attacked,

discriminated, beaten, etc. any Muslims lately...

Add on top of that racial and religious provocation from a Western source. Read the signs at the demonstrations, it's not just about the cartoons.

Also note, the big demonstrations are also political. The Islamic parties in Pakistan are gearing to flex there muscles as it appears Musharef will be forced to step down at the end of his current term. Politics in Pakistan can be a nasty business.

[Psephos]

49. Let me get this straight: you're trying to make violence seem acceptable?

In my view, settling differences of political and religious opinion through demonstrations featuring death and mob violence is not acceptable.

Peace.

[iverglas]

54. Let me get this straight: you're trying to misrepresent what someone said?

I think I've got it straight. If not, I'm sure you'll tell me.

Of course, I'm sure you'll also have something to offer that would constitute even the smallest shred of evidence for your statement that the person you were addressing was trying to make violence seem acceptable.

Oh, my mistake. That wasn't a statement; it had a question mark stuck onto it at the end. Funny how it never would have occurred to me to ask it, though. I'll probably never know what made it occur to you to ask it. Well ... maybe I do; but see how careful I was to put a question mark at the end when I said it? Aren't we both just too clever for words?

[anotherdrew]

17. your view that they were intended to incite...

you must mean indirectly... by way of our predictable reaction to their predictable over-reaction...

I suspect we are all being played the fools by someone who wants war...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Using that logic, the anti-semitic cartoons are meant to incite Jews?

Yet anti-semitic cartoons, anti-Hindu cartoons and anti-Hindu religion cartoons are a daily thing in Arab countries. Or maybe it's okay for Arabs to have such cartoons, but it's not okay for others to have cartoons about Arabs, Muslims or their religion? Something doesn't quite square properly.

[fujiyama]

21. At this point

it is somewhat clear that the cartoonist and the publisher wanted to get aa rise out of people but I seriously don't think they envisioned burning embassies and international boycotts.

I don't see how the cartoons were meant to incite people to hate Muslims. Do you really think the cartoons themselves changed the minds of non Muslims on Islam? I doubt most non Muslims could have cared any less about some silly cartoons. Only loony fundies give a shit about things like 'blasphemy' in the West.

The reaction out of Muslim countries has undoubtedly had a much larger effect on the perception of Islam in the West.

[PBass]

25. I have to disagree

"The cartoons may be offensive to Muslims, but they don't incite people to hate Muslims."

A cartoon showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, most certainly DOES incite people to hate Muslims.

[Andromeda]

36. Then by your own logic...

you would agree that anti-Semitic cartoons in Arab publications incites people to hate Jews?

[JCMach1]

38. I read Mein Kampf in high school... does say much about

the current state of Turkish literature...

Hitler's prose style is flatulent at best... BLECH!

[genie_weenie]

5. From what I've read on the DU and elsewhere

this is not viewed as a contradiction. The legends surrounding Muhammed have attained a mythical status. You can't ridicule someone who received God's Holy word from the angel Gabriel or gone on the Night Journey to Jerusalem. Muhammed is untouchable.

Meanwhile in the very real Modern world, Islam and Israel are engaged in a struggle unto Death, according to some people. And the cartoons of babykilling Jews, Ariel Sharon with a swastika superimposed over the Star of David and books claiming Israel was behind 9/11, Protocols of Zion and Mein Kampf merely represent another front in the War.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Therefore...

...had the cartoons been published in Israel, it would have just been 'another front in the war?'

[genie_weenie]

11. Sorry I'm confused as to which cartoons.

But, if you mean some people who are Muslims view depicting persons of Jewish faith living in Israel as monsters another front in a War to destroy Israel, the answer is yes.

Humans have for many years deluded themselves that terrible deeds done during war are somehow acceptable. The end justifying the means logic.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. If the Danish cartoons had been published in Israel...

...that would have just been another front in the war?

That was what I was asking.

[genie_weenie]

13. Oh. No,

what I was saying was that some Muslims view spreading cartoons depicting Jews as monsters as a front in their war on Israel. And to stir up hatred, too allow other Muslims to view the Jewish persons as sub-human.

Just standard propaganda.

[SujiwanKenobee]

6. Actually, Anti-Semitic literature isn't the same as portraying Mohammed

as the cartoonists did. To hit home, there would have to be cartoons made depicting God or some other venerated figure in Judaism. Jews would have to be inculcated with the same sense of outrage that would lead them to run the extremes from protest to murderous rampages.
Somehow , I don't think this would come from Muslim cartoonists, since I think the same veneration exists for God and his messengers and would prohibit such cartoons.

[winter999]

7. Do you mean like the way Moses was made fun of

in Mel Brooks' (a jew) "History of the World Pt 1"? And wasn't there something in that movie about the Inquisition (which was the worst killings of jews until the Holocaust).

And if Mohammed is untouchable, what about Jesus who is supposedly God, not just a prophet and has more than a few centuries on Islam.

[Harper_is_Bush]

32. So, Jesus is better than Mohammed?

because he's got a few centuries on Islam?

BTW, isn't Jesus just a prophet to Muslims? Why do you state as a fact that Jesus wasn't "just a prophet"?

Your example of a movie is pointless. Western culture is not offended by such things, so what? Should Muslims be like Jews and Christians, that the point?

I'm amazed at all the newbies who have nothing but strong anti-Muslim sentiment to share!

[fujiyama]

46. "Western culture is not offended by such things, so what?

Should Muslims be like Jews and Christians, that the point?"

Who is saying Muslims should be like Christians or Jews? People are saying that all people's religions and prophets should be free for ridicule. A free society allows free expression, even that which offends people.

This cartoon was not published in a Muslim country. It was produced in a Western nation, where the culture IS different. It is not the right of any one religion to impose these beliefs on everyone else. If fanatics want blasphemy laws enforced, they should move to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, where the penalty for such actions is death. No one has a right to never be offended when there is a free press.

Ideally, everyone would respect everyone's sensitivities and not publish things which were deemed offensive. But things don't always work that way. Muslims had a right to be offended though and voice their protest and in most cases did so peacefully.

However, those rioting, killing others, destroying property, or harrassing minorities (like Christians in Pakistan) have not even the slightest iota of sympathy from me.

Some Muslims have legitimate greivances. But a small number of them, like every other group on earth, are violent ass holes hell bent on imposing their beliefs on everyone else. I'm not going to stand up for such scum and anyone that does is not progressive in any way.

[JudyM]

14. Interesting point. Note also how quickly they turned this against the Jews

instead of simply boycotting the Danes and other European publishers of the cartoons. Any excuse to vent their hatred against the Jews is a good one. As if the Jews caused the problem. And the flame of this hatred is surely fanned by the antisemitic 'porn' that's so vitriolically belched all over the Arab world. It is as if they believe the social ills they suffer are due to the Jews and not their own leaders.

[barb162]

24. I think if you took the central figure in Christianity,

Jesus, and cartoons were done about Jesus, Christians would not be burning down the embassy of the country where the cartoon was created. Now would there be death and kidnapping threats of the people from that country.

[SOS]

27. Probably not

but the editors of the Danish paper decided not to "provoke an outcry" with Jesus cartoons:

"In April 2003 Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons offering a lighthearted take on the resurrection of Christ to the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. Zieler received an e-mail from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, saying: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think they will provoke an outcry. Therefore I will not use them."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060227/editors

[barb162]

42. Yeah, fine, but it makes no diff. The Muslims are doing cartoon

contests, etc., now and I don't see any Christians destroying embassies

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. Political cartoons are always a way to attack

Why are we making an exception for Arabs/Muslims? Are they somehow special and above everyone else?

[iverglas]

8. how very odd

that not every individual who is a member of a religiously, culturally and ethnically diverse group of hundreds of millions of people in scores of countries behaves in a manner that is consistent with how every other individual behaves.

"Contradiction"? Only if the people selling the materials in question in Muslim societies are the same people objecting to the materials published in Europe.

Otherwise, perhaps better described as "diversity".

There may of course indeed be significant overlap between those who do/support the one and those who object to the other. No harm in pointing that out, where it actually exists.

Calling doing the one and objecting to the other a "contradiction" is otherwise pretty much like calling it a contradiction for the US to be killing people in Iraq when there are USAmericans are calling for Bush to be impeached.

[Jim Sagle]

15. The Muslim demonstrators need to gulp a nice steaming hot cup of

shut yer fuckin' mouth.

[PBass]

26. wow, "shut your fucking mouth". Very articulate. (eom)

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

20. i think your confused...

according to what i understand women in islam are given the upmost respect.....if there are "beatings etc" it is probably those few that have strayed. For instance i'm sure there is a valid reason grounded in respect that women cant drive cars in Saudi Arabia, or that women are stoned for adultry in iran. I think whats missing is your obvious lack of respect for islamics respect for their women and your lack of respect of honoring the god of multiculturalism.

btw i'm looking for a female virgin to toss in a volcano for my newfound religion...got any?

[barb162]

23. you bad

[azurnoir]

22. There is something

that I must point out- do the Arab cartoons go after Jews in a religious manner? What I mean is this do these cartoons depict say Moses or Abraham, or God for that matter? I think probably not often. Most of these toon go after Jews in a more ethnic manner. Joseph Campbell pointed out that Jews are the only religion on earth that is also identified as an ethnicity. This is true only because Jews are probably the most persecuted group of people on earth (from the bible to the present day) and have never really sought to convert people. I say this because the Muslim outrage is religious in nature Mohammad being depicted and in a disrespectful manner.

[Diresu]

28. Norway criminalizes blasphemy?!?!

Holy freakin' crap is this story real? I actually think it is.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-02/15/article04.shtml

[Harper_is_Bush]

30. Contradiction in media treatment of violence concerning religion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2114166

Sorry if I don't sympathize, but I am CONSTANTLY hearing about claims of anti-semitism from Jewish groups...and it hits the news in my Country with a big splash. Violence like what I linked against Muslims gets almost no mention.

Besides that, there's hardly a contradiction here because the comparison is apples and oranges. Some anti-semetic stuff for sale in Cairo is hardly the equivalent of blasphemous Muhammed caricatures printed in Western mainstream media.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. You don't sypathize with what?

[Harper_is_Bush]

44. With the complaining about a "contradiction" over the anti-Semitic stuff.

You know....the topic?

[Behind the Aegis]

45. So...

Islamaphobia is bad, but anti-Semitism is "ehh" because it has more media coverage?

[Harper_is_Bush]

50. I think the point of the op is the opposite.

Apparently anti-Semitism gets no coverage.

[tn-guy]

31. no contradiction at all

You are mistaken to think there was a logical contradiction. I think this stems from your unstated, erroneous assumption that the "principle" involved was, "inflammatory cartoons should not be published." The apparent contradiction disappears when you realize the correct "principle" being advanced is "anything that offends you, tough; anything that offends us deserves death."

[JCMach1]

34. I believe Protocols of the Elders of Zion

was originally published as anti-semitic propaganda in the West...

Isn't it FREEDOM OF SPEECH to have it on sale?

Every side has its own contradictions.

Racism is an equal opportunity reason to do stupid things!

[Behind the Aegis]

35. If you consider Russia the "West"

It isn't about it being published, it is about it being passed off as factual. But, let's say it is just about it being published, that doesn't seem to be an issue in Arab countries and no one is telling them what they should and shouldn't publish by burning down the vendors stands or threatening to kill them.

So, I take it you were OK with the publishing of the cartoons? If not, are you against the publishing of the "Protocols?"

The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion

On edit:

Middle East
As popular opposition to Israel spread across the Middle East in the second half of the century, many Arab governments funded new printings of the Protocols, and taught them in their schools as historical fact. They have been accepted as such by many Islamic extremist organizations, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

[genie_weenie]

43. I think the best thing to do is never publish ANYTHING ever again

No books, mags, television, email, webpages, movies, microfilm, photographs, frescoes, canvas paintings, sculptures, nothing. Then it is impossible for anyone to be offended, by printed word/images, there still would exist may other ways to offend.

[fujiyama]

47. That sounds like life under the Taliban

nt

[genie_weenie]

48. TaliBush you mean...

[poskonig]

51. God Bless Hitler

From one of the anti-cartoon rallies. Interesting how wiping out the Jews is always the center of attention, even though Denmark is 90% LUTHERAN. What is wrong with these people?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Aren't they SPECIAL?

Sheesh. And then we have some people in here defending them.

[iverglas]

53. I'm still waiting

And then we have some people in here defending them.
(emphasis mine)

When are you going to NAME ONE?

I'd been expecting to see you and some of your friends here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2120644&mesg_id=2120644

I'm not saying that it's impossible to reject a ban on material such as the anti-Muslim cartoons that lay at the source of the assorted nastiness that has gone on in this instance and approve the legislation under which David Irving was convicted of glorifying Nazism by denying the Holocaust ... but it would certainly be interesting to see someone who's done the former do the latter. Or not. Hopefully with reasoned argument, whichever way. Hahaha.