Laser lights blast pilots

[shugah]

Laser lights blast pilots
26 incidents are reported near Metro Airport
February 16, 2006

More than two dozen pilots flying near Detroit Metro Airport this week say someone shined a laser into their cockpits, putting them at risk from lights that could have temporarily blinded them. Law enforcement officials say it is a growing threat to aircraft safety.

Across the country, from Florida to Utah to Michigan, pilots have become increasingly worried about the use of laser pointers -- some of which can project light more than 2 miles -- aimed at their planes, either as a prank or an outright threat.

Often used for office presentations or for teaching kids about the stars, laser pointers are also capable of dazzling or disorienting a person who is struck in the eye by the spot of light, making it a grave concern for the airline industry. Congress is currently considering a proposal to make it a federal offense to shine a laser pointer at an aircraft.

~snip~

"It's only a matter of time before one of these laser beam pranksters ends up killing over 200 people in a commercial airline crash," Keller said during congressional debate in December.

Keller's legislation would make it a federal crime to knowingly aim a laser pointer at an aircraft. Those found guilty could be fined or imprisoned up to 5 years.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060216/NEWS02/602160506/1004/NEWS

[lakeguy]

1. i don't get it...

how do you aim a laser beam, from the ground, into the cockpit of a plane that is above you. am i missing something?

[shugah]

3. i don't know

it seems like it would be very difficult - but apparently not. 2 dozen times in a week at one airport? :shrug:

[nodehopper]

5. you probably need that girl from "Small Wonder" and some Pink Floyd

[classics]

12. Easy, they are lying.

Probably not the pilots, but the middle management DHS people who consolidate such reports.

90% of DHS employees know thier jobs and fat paychecks will vanish in a puff of smoke if they dont keep up the charade of constant threat from all angles.

IMHO the huge number of 'security releated' jobs created since 9/11 is a huge threat to the us economy.

No threat = No paycheck, so guess what, the sky is falling!!!

[mitchum]

64. Bingo! eom

[saigon68]

88. THEY COULD USE THESE LASERS TO TORTURE IRAQIS

AT ABU GHRAIB AND GITMO

It would save time -----rather than just kicking or beating them to death

[dysfunctional press]

101. my 1st thought as well- shades of New Orleans post-Katrina sniper fire

"...just add bullshit and stir, until desired results are achieved"

[KittyWampus]

23. By NOT Actually Aiming. Or rather aiming INDIRECTLY. Randomly

describing figure eights with the beam repeatedly in the air while aiming at the cockpit window, or even at the front end of a plane in general, will be pretty likely to eventually provide a "Hit".

[mike_c]

I don't think so-- consider the angle of movement....

One or two degrees of wobble on the ground-- an insane amount of precision for wrist muscles-- would translate to tens or hundreds of meters deflection in the air-- at best, such a "hit" would pass through the cockpit so fast it would be hard to see. Furthermore, it couldn't present any danger to the pilots, not only because of it's ephemeral passage, but because it would be directed toward the ceiling of the cockpit, and a pilot would have to put their head into the beam and look down, all while the beam and the plane are moving rapidly.

Something really stinks about this story. Go out into a long straight street at night and try illuminating a small STATIONARY target at least 100 m away with a laser pointer. I'll bet you can't do it with any certainty without a telescope or binoculars, unless the target is the side of a house, and at 100 m your heartbeat alone will cause the light to jerk eratically. Anything with the relative size of a cockpit window a mile away? No way, not hand held without optics. If this is really happening, I don't believe it's hand held laser pointers.

[KittyWampus]

37. haven't you ever used a flashlight to play with a cat? Or remember being

a kid discovering a flashlight?

First you directly aim at targets, then you get bored and make squiggles in the air and on the ground.

Some fools who live by the airports are taking their laser beams outsider and aiming the beam at the planes and trying to see if they can see their squiggles on the sides of the plane.

And in the process, they are inadvertently hitting the cockpit window and the pilots.

Mark my words, it's purely a matter of time before some Freeper child takes one of these lasers onto an highway overpass...

[mike_c]

45. but that's only a few FEET away, not kilometers....

At distances over 100 meters the "squiggles" get very wide and the target is very small. The chances of hitting anything go DOWN in that case, not up. When you play with a cat, you move the tip of the laser pointer only an inch or so but the light spot zooms from one end of the house to the other-- imagine ramping that up to a distance of a kilometer or more.

Here's a graphic-- note that as the distance increases, the chance of hitting the target decreases UNLESS the size of the squiggle decreases too, i.e. becomes more precise, but at distances over a few hundred meters it becomes flat impossible to control the tiny deflections necessary-- your pulse alone would produce bigger deflections.

[Vickers]

35. You can see the cockpit windows on approach, even at a 60° angle

I have some photos, and even when they are almost on top of you, you can see the windows.

If somebody want to host one or two, I will email them.

[MadMaddie]

57. We had some incidents in Seattle...

The planes were either landing or taking off, so I think it's possible in those situations.

[Pavulon]

65. The same way you

take a picture of a plane in flight. Not that hard. Considering the laser is moving 186000 miles per second ponting that is pretty easy.

[Radio_Lady]

91. Original document on this subject is in .pdf file format at:

From the Federation of American Scientists, located in Washington, DC:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS22033.pdf

[the other one]

2. This is BS

I challenge the ability of someone to have that kind of accuracy to hit the inside of a airliner (a MOVING airliner!) with a laser pointer.

OOh! Lets raise the alert! Bad people out to hurt us! Save us somebody!

[KittyWampus]

24. You are wrong. Any child could do it by aiming INDIRECTLY or not at all

and simply describing random circles and figure eights in the air with the laser beam in the general direction of incoming plane's cockpit or front end.

In other words, doing it unintentionally or intentionally by using a scatter shot approach.

Randomly describing figure eights with the beam repeatedly in the air while aiming at the cockpit window, or even at the front end of a plane in general, will be pretty likely to eventually provide a "Hit".

[OldCurmudgeon]

29. sorry this is stupid

You need to hit a ~1m target from a distance of 10km; that means getting within 0.006 degree of your target. Do the math: arctan(1m/10**4m).

Waving the beam around might help a bit, but there's a LOT of 0.006 by 0.006 degree spots within the few square degrees that one could accurately direct a laser pointer by hand.
Like, about a quarter of a million of them. Wave that beam up and down, side to side, figure eights, whatever you like, the amount of space that you can actually cover is a miniscule fraction.

And that's with actively trying to point the laser, not "waving it around in the general direction".

Now, what one *can* do is diverge the laser beam so that it's really wide and not much aiming is required at all. Of course, at that point it's just a bright light and completely incapable of coming close to blinding anyone.

In my wilder youth, I had a friend that mounted a laser (HeNe, not a wimpy diode) in a rifle-like body; it was fun to see if one could "light up" a reflectorized stopsign down the street. That was a ~1m target, 100-200m away, and it was *damn* hard to hit. Doing the same with a hand-held laser pointer for a *moving* target, 100 times further away, is simply ridiculous.

[KittyWampus]

38. Waving the beam into rapid, random movement solves the "mystery"

it's simple & expanatory.

And it's what people do naturally when they get a new toy like a flashlight or laser beam.

[mrbassman03]

49. it would be moving so fast, it would be almost impossible to see...

not to mention actually impossible to actually shine into the cockpit. the nose is in the way of the windshields. no way it is a laser pointer.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. no

Say you take one second to wave the laser pointer over a 60 degree angle. That's actually *pretty slow* -- try it out!

Say the plane is ten kilometers away, the same as a previous poster's assumption. At ten kilometers, a 60 degree angle opens up into a 17.3 kilometer arc! That small motion you make with your wrist covers a lot of sky at that distance.

So the speed of the laser "dot" at that distance is 17.3 kilometers per second. If the cockpit window is one meter in diameter, the laser dot spends (1 meter / 17300 meters per second) = 0.06 milliseconds in the cockpit.

Someone who's an expert on the physiology of the eye and nervous system should tell us whether humans can notice an event that lasts for 0.06 milliseconds, but I suspect we can't.

[Realityhack]

107. Nope.

Sorry but you would have to take out 4 seperate eyes in the cockpit to cause a crash. Absolute minimum of two. Unless the laser is significantly stronger than an average 5mw laser pointer it would have to be aimed directly at the eye for some time to cause even temporary blindness.
Thats not counting falloff from traviling so far through the air first (fine particles etc decrease the amount of light falling on the eventual target) and the fact that you have angled glass (front windows) in the way that will deflect some of the light off the inside and outside surfaces. And your target area to keep the laser in for long enough to do damage is a moveing 9 square millimeter target at best (again you have to do it twice minimum).
Waving it faster as you describe would make it even less powerful. In fact you might well be lucky to spot it as a red blink on the ground under those circumstances.

[Frank Cannon]

43. We're not even talking a 1m target, more like .1m at max

Or roughly the distance between a pilot's eyes.

That lowers the actual arc to something like 6 ten-thousands of a degree.

And that has to be held in that tiny arc for at least a second to cause any damage.

And while the plane is moving.

I don't buy this for a second. Something is up with this.

[BrotherBuzz]

59. It's not a perfect laser light, it grows in size over distance

One meter sounds good to me.

[Realityhack]

111. Even less than that.

its only effective if it hits the eye itself. somethig like 9mm^2 at most.

[donco6]

47. I agree with you, OldCurmudgeon

In my college days, we "borrowed" a laser from the physics lab and shined it into the dorm room windows across the quad - I know, stupid - but, the quad was maybe 100 yds wide and it was not easy to point the thing to hit the window. And even at that short distance, there was obvious divergence. And that was a STATIONARY target!

I just don't see how people could be doing this. Is it happening very close to the ground - like at wheels down? Even then, hitting a target moving laterally at 200+ mph - really doubtful.

Something smells.

[Thor_MN]

81. Go stand by the sign and see if you can see the laser,

You are thinking backwards.

[Realityhack]

112. not really.

the hole reason the laser beam is dangersous is because it stays coherent so you get the full impact in a very small dot. If the laser is pointing 2 inches to the side of your head you will see the light that is spread by the imperfect optics at the front of the laser etc... but it will not blind you.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

95. I am intrigued by your viewpoint and would like to subscribe...

... to your newsletter*

* Which is a back-handed way of saying that I really appreciate you bringing science and rationality to this discussion. However, being old and curmudgeonly myself, I am likely predisposed towards your opinion.

/On edit: doesn't anyone else find the timing of the resurgence of this putative phenomena questionable? It's like raising the "Terror Alert Level" (or whatever the fuck it is called) or 24-hour coverage of shark attacks, missing white women, or killer bees. What a convenient distraction.

Rove is running out of tricks. {I hope}.

/BEEEEESSSS!!!
//The Power of Nightmares.

[Pavulon]

66. So the Pilots

who are mostly former air force officers all colluded because they want to further some conspiracy?

[Thor_MN]

80. This is not about a small dot of light on the wall...

Stop thinking of being the person holding the laser... It's about the pilot seeing the laser, not the laser seeing the pilot. Go outside and have someone shine a flashlight at you from the end of the block. Are you illuminated to any appreciable degree? No. Can you clearly see the flashlight? Of course. Can you see the flashlight even though the person's pulse is moving their hand? Of course.

A laser spreads out at as it gets farther away, just like the flashlight (just not as rapidly, it's a more focused beam) People think laser pointer? How could you put that little dot of light in a window at all the distance? At the distance the plane would be away, that "little laser dot" is tens if not hundreds of feet across.

The other thing people think about is that the plane is moving hundred of miles an hour!!! How could you possibly? Go stand by a road and watch cars approach you or get in line with a runway and watch planes land. Point at it. How much do you need to move your hand to keep pointing at it? Not much, until it gets close to you and goes past you, where you have to move very rapidly. It's the rate of angular motion relative to you that determins if it's hard to track out not. If the target is far away from you and moving toward you, it's practically stationary in terms of hitting it with light. If it were as difficult as people have proposed, you wouldn't be able to clearly see the plane. Remember that your heads (and eyes) move with your pulse also.

[Ediacara]

98. This is true

But I have trouble understanding why a laser not pointed directly at the plane would be problematic. Would a laser pointer pointed in its general direction be differentiable from any red light on the ground?

I agree that this could be problematic if someone is sitting at the end of the runway pointing the laser pointer directly into the cockpit window during takeoff and landing, but if the problem is really lasers pointing into the cockpits while the plane is at its cruising altitude, then it's simply impossible for it to be a handheld laser pointer.

[Realityhack]

113. Sorry but thats totaly wrong.

thinking about a flashlight is totaly off. The whole point of the laser is that its a culminated beam. If the beam does not strike you the most you will see is the slightly scattered light... in other words it will be about as dangerous as a flash light.

If someone is sitting in the room with you and points a laser pointer up at the presentation you are giving do you go blind? no of course not. Unless they get very close to you you barely even see the red of the scatered light. And you are in no danger unless they get that little dot onto your eye... at which point they would need it to stay there for a considerable amount of time (in terms of hitting a tiny moving target).

[JugDack]

4. What's the motivation for the pilots to lie?

I just assumed this was true, but you guys seem pretty convinced it's some kind of scam. How come?

[phantom power]

13. The entire thing could be made up. There were no pilots saying this.

[soothsayer]

32. Disability? "Laser damaged my eye and now I can't fly?"

Mebbe self-inflicted damage at home with laser pointer first? Dunno.

[Pavulon]

67. Most pilots

make more working. There is no motive to lie.

[Realityhack]

115. Its not necisarily outright lying.

they see quick red flicker from the ground... perhapse it even is a laser being pointed at them... and ohhh we could go BLIND I tell ya.

Basicaly they think they are in danger, panic, and completely ignore reason that says they realy aren't.

[Missy M]

6. We will soon have more laws in this country than people...

I think they sit in Washington and conjure up new laws over anything to justify their jobs. Shining a laser pointer into the cockpit of a moving airliner and hitting the pilot in the eye with it is quite an accomplishment and seems almost impossible.

[maseman]

7. I am a pilot...

And for some reason I am starting to doubt that this is a real problem. I agree that I don't understand the motivating factor for these pilots to lie. At least saying you saw a UFO is more exciting.

But the nearly impossible situation of #1 being able to hit a moving target a mile or more away seems next to impossible. #2 To be able to hit something moving that far away with steady enough aim to actually blind someone for a long enough period to cause a problem. The best place to be able to hit a pilot with a laser would be on the runway centerline while they were on final. But that seems pretty remote since the security is tight.

This makes no sense.

[0007]

9. Thanks for the common touch from experience.

[FlaGranny]

17. I don't really know how difficult it would be to

aim a laser at a cockpit, but at our local international airport, it would be quite easy to station yourself at the end of a runway. There is a major highway at the end of it, and across the street from the end of the runway is a bar and several businesses. It would be pretty easy to shine a laser at an airplane taking off or landing from either direction, especially from the bar, which is directly on line with the runway. The elevated runway lights (whatever those are called) start just a few yards from the side of the highway. I haven't heard of any incidences like this happening at this airport.

[Ready4Change]

20. I 'm a pilot too (private, SEL).

Accuracy would be a problem, I'd think. However, there's no reason to think someone doing this would limit themselves to a pen sized laser. (which, being so small, would be very difficult to aim and hold on target over a long distance.)

But office/presentation laser pointers aren't the only ones out there. There are laser pointers for handguns and rifles which anyone can buy. There is even a system where a laser pointer is inserted into a gun just like a regular bullet, so you can tell precisely where the guns barrel is pointing. Combine any of these with a stabile rest and a steady aim and I think you could get the pointer into a cockpit from a longer distance.

Still, most runways and the environs around them used by airliners are well over a mile long. I think that's still too far for most people, even with good equipment. You could be closer if you were to the side of the runway, but tracking an airliner cockpit from the side would be far harder than from infront of it.

I'd be curious if the lasers used thus far have been red, or some other color? If so, I'd think you could equip the pilots with appropriate colored sunglasses and require either pilot or copilot wear them on approach? Similar to regulations that the active pilot be on oxygen should the other leave the cockpit to use the head?

[KittyWampus]

26. Accuracy is besides the point. You just aim the beam in the general

direction of the plane's front end and swirl it around in circles rapidly. You'll eventually get that beam into the cockpit.

[soothsayer]

30. I believe it's the green laser (goes farther than the red). Remember

when that dude got arrested cuz his young daughter shined a green one at a plane or something? Eh, never made sense to me back then either.

[Realityhack]

108. The proposed law...

and the 'personal experiences' are talking aobut laser pointers.

Sure if you take a massive laser and have a computer aim it to take out a plane... um thats already a crime.

[KittyWampus]

25. Again, you are wrong. It is very EASY to hit the cockpit by randomly

waving the laser beam while aimed at the cockpit.

DU'ers are simply assuming that the only way to aim a laser beam and get a "hit" on the pilot thru the cockpit window is for someone on the ground to hold the beam steady and actually aim directly for the window.

That is a totally erroneous assumption.

Even a child could take the laser beam, aim it at the front end of an incoming plane and SWIRL the laser beam in the air... and eventually get a "Hit" without actually even trying.

[Mithras61]

28. So what? A hit by this method...

would have ZERO chance of actually blinding a pilot for long enough to even BEGIN to be a problem.

It would be more like the flash from a camera than a "blinding or disorienting" of the pilot. I'm VERY photo sensitive, and find that what you are suggesting is more than a little ridiculous (I've been "targetted" by this method by my 5-yo daughter at a range of almost 10 feet on MANY occasions, and have never been blinded or disoriented).

[KittyWampus]

36. How long does it take for a laser beam to blind you? Occams Razor

is clearly on my side.

[Mithras61]

40. Occams Razor is clearly NOT on your side...

You'd have better success hitting a moving target with a flashlight than a laser pointer. The unlikliness of what you suggest is too ridiculous to even be a realistic suggestion. The target area you are talking about to hit the window of an approaching plane is approx. 1 meter. The target (even moving AT you) is so small and moving about such that even IF you were able to hit the plane (unlikely), the chance of you successfully hitting the pilot's window (much less their EYE) is vanishingl;y remote. To not only hit their window, but hit their eye long enough to blind them (even temporarily) would require several seconds of steady hit on their eye as target, and is so unrealistic as to be laughable.

[KittyWampus]

41. Moving the beam rapidly, continuosly & randomly in 8's is certainly

more effective then training it ONE SPOT... and answers the question handily.


Your problem is assuming this is intentional and the result of someone holding the beam steady and AIMING directly for the cockpit window.

My point, these are people doing what comes naturally with a laser beam toy... taking it outside and squiggling it around in circles while pointing it in the general direction of this or that. People living by airports come up with the brilliant idea of watching their beam squiggle on incoming planes.

[Mithras61]

42. But simply FAILS when you consider...

that to blind or disorient the pilot would REQUIRE that the beam be held steady for SEVERAL SECONDS!

[FlaGranny]

44. And, I would think it

would require the pilot to keep looking at the beam, rather than looking away - unless we're talking about a super powerful laser.

[Pavulon]

70. Wrong

a very high wattage columnated co2 laser could cause instant blindness (like 10thousandths of a second) and death in short order.

[Pavulon]

69. Fractions of a second

In college physics we had a laser lab. We got to watch the monkey tape. A sedated monkey is tied down and in less than 1 second its retina and cornea are melted with a medium power 13watt or so laser. Beam was IR non visible light.

Meaning you could blind yourself and not know it until it was all over.

I work with industrial cutters that can slice steel quicker than a cutting torch. Using a laser.

[Mithras61]

71. Ah yes...

and exactly how many of those cutting lasers are of the hand-held laser pointer variety? (that is what's being alleged in this story, remember)

[Pavulon]

72. Who said pointer

They are unregulated. A laser that will burn a hole through your head is about the size of a brick.

[Mithras61]

73. Second paragraph of the story...

The story itself says "pointer"


Across the country, from Florida to Utah to Michigan, pilots have become increasingly worried about the use of laser pointers

[Pavulon]

75. The statement about blindness

really doesn't apply to pointers. even the green ones. They could do damage but at altitude and duration unlikley. A distraction and problem yes. pointers, gunsights, etc are 3a lasers. Visible, so you shield your eyes.

However industrial lasers can cause instant blindness. Lasers in the nonvisible range are worse because you dont shield your eyes because you cant see the beam.

My bad on the context.

[Mithras61]

76. No sweat...

I'm neither a physicist nor a laser specialist of any sort, but I knew that industrial-grade lasers aren't the same thing as laser pointers (and the power of industrial lasers is only one thing different... a UV laser would blow their eyes out before they knew they were on fire, and they'd never see the beam).

I'm not sure if I think industrial lasers could do it. They are powerful enough, but the whole "arc of movement/speed of flight/distance of target" argument seems to cast doubts on it.

[Pavulon]

77. that could be

over come by someone pretty easily. because of the predictable motion of an aircraft tracking it would be easy.

I can think of an easy way to adapt existing equipment available to do this but will not post it.

[Mithras61]

78. I see your point...

It's probably not a good idea to post it, but the fact that you (and now that you mention it, I believe I can think of a couple as well) can come up with it on such short notice makes me suspicious that they are trying to TRIGGER such an attack...

[jmowreader]

89. Also the "three-phase power supply" argument

You don't just plug those things into your cigarette lighter.

[Pavulon]

94. No But

an UPS battery system can run 208 3 phase, no problem. A generator can power 1 or 3 phase 208 or 220 power.

Some "smaller" units will happily run on 120v power.

[jmowreader]

121. And you're going to take all that shit...

haul it out to somewhere you can see into the cockpits of commercial airliners, set it up and NOT be noticed.

I don't know about you, but if it was me, I'd just get me a Q-beam or one of those Husky Five Million Candlepower Lights we started selling about a month ago, set up in the same place, shine a few million cp of light into the cockpit at dusk, duck while the plane containing the blinded pilots was busy crashing, then haul ass. You get to the exact same place without the problem of having to explain to cops what the hell you're doing driving around with all of the equipment needed to power up a CO2 laser in the back seat of your car. Q-beams you can explain--lots of people have them, they're not unexpected. Industrial lasers are a different story.

[Realityhack]

116. Re industrial laser.

and industrial laser is indeed capable of taking out the pilots eyes like that. Its not a complicated thing...

But of course thats already illigal in about a dozen diffrent ways.

A law about laser pointers is IMO fucking retarded.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

96. Really?

"A laser that will burn a hole through your head is about the size of a brick"

Please cite references to support your claim and present all calculations that support it.

[Realityhack]

110. some major problems with that.

Thats a 13 WATT laser the ones they are talking about in this law are laser pointers which are 5 MilliWatts. Huge fuck all diffrence.
Secondly it was IR which IIRC is far more damaging than the fisible spectrum.
Third you say 'less than a second' but do not say anythign about a beam sweaping past for a millisecond or less.

If someone points a 13 watt laser at a plane... they are trying to bring it down. Thats already a crime... but pointing a laser pointer at one? please.

[Realityhack]

109. not even close.

many of us here have been hit in the eye accidentaly with a laser pointer so we KNOW what its like and thats from a few feet where the time on target would be way WAY longer than what you would get form even 100 feet off never mind a mile or two.

[IA_Seth]

104. A more likely solution...

Would be to mount a laser on a pair of high-powered binocs, or a low-powered telescope or monocular.

This would allow you to better aim towards the target, and by dialing in the laser/optic combo at shorter distances you would be assured that your laser would be "on target".

You would still likely be off by some distance, depending upon how accurately your laser/optic was dialed in, but this could be perfected over time.

Just sayin...

[Realityhack]

117. Then steady the whole thing....

and of course get a real laser instead of a 3a 5mw diode.

this is very silly.

[TheWraith]

122. Also, if you were on the centerline, you'd get hit when the plane lands.

I concur that this is bunk. I love lasers and have several of them, and realistically there's no way that you could intentionally hit the cockpit of an airliner from a safe location without some very specialized equipment. At the very least you'd need a high-power laser, which can run into the hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars, a good vantage point in line with the runway, plus a bad-ass telescope and a hell of a lot of dumb luck.

Chances are that this story was based on either the bogus bragging of some DHS employee, trying to impress others with his "inside scoop" on terrorism, or it's just a rumor going around. We had a flurry of similar reports a year or two ago, about how there was this supposed epidemic of laser pointer attacks on airplanes. It was crap then, it's crap now.

[Wilber_Stool]

8. This looks like a job for the

Myth Busters.
Were are Jamie and Adam when you need them.

[IDemo]

10. NORAD is considering using lasers to warn pilots in restricted areas:

Lasers warn pilots of restricted airspace

Friday, February 11, 2005

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military is planning a final demonstration Friday night of a ground-based laser system designed to warn pilots who have flown into restricted airspace over the nation's capital.

During the demonstration of the Visual Warning System, a test aircraft will be illuminated with alternating red and green laser lights, said Michael Kucharek, spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

"It's an attention-getter, but it's not blinding," Kucharek said. "It's not a distraction. So pilots can still focus on flying the aircraft without endangering anyone or themselves."

NORAD is looking for a cheaper, safer way to let pilots know they've strayed into restricted airspace over Washington.


Also read: http://www.equipped.com/lasers_airliners.htm

[Maeve]

14. Wait a minute--"It's an attention-getter, not blinding, not a distraction"

But the other story says someone is going to get killed by pilots blinded?

[Renew Deal]

15. The simplest answer

is that the lasers would not be pointed at cockpits and may be a different intensity.

[Realityhack]

118. ????

If they are not pointed at the cockpit the pilots see them how?

Besides which the image recognition to do that would be excesive.

Your on to it with the power though. It would be spread out over a large area to make sure the pilots see it and at a non-damageing intecity is my guess.

[Robb]

11. I was over at faa.gov trying to get reports

and I'm apparently too dense to work the database right before coffee, because I can't find any of these incidents.

BUT ... the reason I was there is that I've noticed in this stories they never said what aircraft was being flown (again, unless the coffee thing, you know...).

I find it a little more likely a Cessna on approach would be nose down enough to get nailed by a kid with a good laser pointer; but if that's what we're talking about, it's a little disingenuous to say "A Delta pilot" and not add "in his small plane."

FWIW, I think this would be a HELL of an excuse for a dodgy landing at a commercial airport. A few bad ones add up on one's record, don't they? :shrug:

[Patiod]

16. Is it still legal to use them to tease cats?

B-)

[Ready4Change]

21. So long as the cats not on final approach.

So, if the cats not flying an airliner, no problem!

[Robeson]

68. ROFLMAO!....

...:spray: :rofl:

[brainshrub]

27. Terrorist.

:)

[KittyWampus]

39. Just a matter of time before a Freeper child takes one onto an overpass

of a highway and starts waving one around onto oncoming cars and causes a tragedy.

[zbdent]

18. Had this discussion last year about how the pointers are

so dangerous . . .

Except in the context of how Cleveland was not going to ban a specific high-powered rifle near the airports . . .

I asked which was more likely to occur - a person able to get into the direct line of sight of the cockpit of a plane and hit a pilot in the eye with a laser pointer, or the likelihood of a bullet piercing a plane as it is taking off (and a much bigger target than the pilot's eye, and you have 360 degrees of targeting potential) . . .

I was spanked by some DUers . . .

[BlueJazz]

19. I wonder, since the planes would be so low and slow...

(being that they are near the airport) that it would be possible to shine a Laser into the cockpit.
I DO know that some of the new "Green" Lasers can put out a hell of a beam..
Just Wondering.. :)

[Betsy Ross]

22. What does aim have to do with it?

It shouldn't be that difficult to flash a laser light at a plane. After umteen attempts, a pilot might notice and report it. AIM does have something to due with hitting a pilot in the eye with a laser and holding it long enough to do damage. Laser type and power are also factors to consider.

[BlueJazz]

31. Yep..Exactly...As I said in Post 19, the new Green Lasers are...

... capable of shooting a beam several miles..

[Thor_MN]

83. Miles? Try light years...

The light is going to keep going until it is absorbed/blocked by something.

Remember this is not about "Lighting up" a target, it's about the source of the light being visible from the target. Shine a flashlight on the wall - note how bright it is. That's what the "doubters" are talking about. Now put the flash light on a book shelf and look directly into it from the same distance. Seems just a wee bit brighter now? After you stop seeing spots so that you can read this, that is what the pilots are talking about - seeing the source of the light.

Any talk of "pointers" or blindess is speculation by media trying to sell news - the pilots are reporting seeing a laser and that it's a distraction. No one has been blinded or is likley to be blinded in an aircraft in flight.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. Would this be urban legend?

[Javaman]

62. I think it's time to call Mythbusters on this one. nt

[Whoa_Nelly]

34. Many stories/arrests re: laser pointing over last 2 years (see link)

Goggle link to lots of different stories about "lazing".

http://tinyurl.com/a5rg5

So, why, all of a sudden is this in the news again?

Weird....

[pitohui]

46. what the hell is wrong w. people?

why do this?

[rman]

48. Laser pointers don't have that kind of range

http://www.appliedlaser.com/pointers.htm

"Infiniter Ultimate" Ink pen and Laser Pointer
Constructed of solid brass
Gloss black coating
Looks like a Montblanc
Battery life: 3 x LR44 batteries; 6 hrs. Constant on
Package: Gift box/with 3 LR44 batteries
670nm Laser; 5mW range up to 300 yards

Super NBK/BBK Laser Pointer
Constructed of solid brass
Matte satin nickel plating or matte black coating
Battery life: 2 x AAA alkaline batteries; 6 hrs. Constant on
Package: Gift box/with 2 AAA Alkaline batteries
650nm Laser; 5mW range up to 500 yards

----

It's not that the laser beam just stops after some ~500 yards or so, but these "lasers" are quite imperfect lasers.
The key component is a laser diode (a special type of Light Emitting Diode (LED) - a semi-conductor component), which does produce quite a tight beam compared to "normal" LEDs, but not the near perfect 'parallel beam' that real lasers produce. The beam of a laser diode does diverge over distance enough so that beyond several 100 yards the amount of energy per surface unit that it projects it not damaging to the eye. At several miles distance probably no-one will even notice it.

[Ezlivin]

50. Laser pointers CAN have long ranges

http://www.wickedlasers.com/products.php?content=spyder

The Spyder Green 300mW has a stated range of 120 miles.

As a pilot I don't think there is a real problem with pilots being "blinded" by the lasers. As others have noted it would be sheer luck to actually hit the pilot's eyes with the beam and even then it would be for such a short period that it's doubtful that the pilot would react.

[Mithras61]

52. Well, these aren't exactly toys, now, are they?

The prices listed range from $999 to $1999. Not exactly the sort of thing someone would be using to play around with huh?

[rman]

54. Marketed as "ultra high powered offensive lasers"

and a price to match.

Not your typical laser pointer, but freely available none the less.

I tend to agree with the points you raise.

[noshenanigans]

51. Man, these people need a mall.

So, there are people who have so much free time they stand at the end of a runway (or in that general area) and specifically play with their laser pointers to shine it at a plane upon approach? Was the Wal-Mart closed?

I know it's cynical and paranoid, but I think it's a fear thing because people's first instinct is to go "laser in a cockpit= weapon with a scope= we're all gonna die".

[Javaman]

55. bullshit alert bullshit alert. My bullshit meter is off the scale on this.

nt

[FiveGoodMen]

58. Agree completely.

The aiming problem is insurmountable unless we're talking about a mounted, computer-guided tracking system. That would be a military weapon. I absolutely reject the notion that this can be done with a hand-held pointer.

So what's REALLY going on?

[Javaman]

61. tinfoil hat on...

it appears that our "elected" leaders would have us believe that all the terrorists out there are hell bent on blowing things up and flying this into that or giving some elected official a bad case of the clap.

However, if the terrorists were really clever, what would prevent them from creating (stealing) a lasar and using it for this purpose?

Remember the anthrax person was never caught. So why wouldn't it be completely possible for a "terrorist" or two cook something like this up. Or even better, a home grown nut job hell bent on exacting revenge on the evil airline industry?

tinfoil hat off.

:tinfoilhat:

[FiveGoodMen]

74. Wouldn't put that past someone.

If that's the case, though, then their initial attempts (starting with a spate of these reports a couple of years ago) haven't been very successful.

Either it doesn't work that well, or these are just 'shots across the bow', or else it's something besides foreign terrorists.

[MetaTrope]

82. This sounds like something requiring the addition of some aiming faculty

like a telescopic rifle sight?

[Thor_MN]

86. Have you ever seen a plane in flight? How could you possibly see it?

You must have military grade, computer guided eyes!!! Otherwise the problem of tracking the target is insurmountable - you'd never be able to hold your eyes steady enough to actually see the plane.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. Yeah me too

[ucmike]

56. FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!!!!!!!!!!!bah

has anyone ever heard of anybody getting injured by a laser pointer under any circumstances? these things are used all over the country and i know of no one who has serious injuries, or been stunned by one. not in a classroom, not in an office, not in my living room playing with the cat after too many drinks. i've never even heard some one say "my friend's cousin's brother got hurt by a laser beam............"

i think that jerkoffs point them at airplanes, but any threat is an urban legend. i worked at a large airport and there is much more threatening, real world stuff to be scared about. if someone is going to bring down a plane they are not going to use a laser.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

60. Sorry guys but I own a green laser and I think it can be easily done

Mine is a small handheld with a nighttime range of about two miles. (I use it for construction, not shooting Quail) If I point it at a reflective street sign from about 1 mile, it lights up the whole sign big time. And aiming is easy cause you can see the whole beam. This is one of the little ones. I have no doubt that the big guns with 25 to 100 mile range could do this. Of course these aren't owned by kids goofing off, they are too expensive. Unfortunately that says something about the folks who are using them and it don't sound good.

[slampoet]

63. Can you light up the Stop Sign.....

When it is traveling 400mph?

if it was coming straight at you you wouldn't have time to take the laser out of your pocket before it was past you.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

79. There are several simple ways to accurately aim over a distance

-A laser sight on a rifle
-A laser strapped to a powerful gun sight
-a laser strapped to a telescope
-a laser strapped to a camera with a powerful zoom lens

-and that's just off the top of my head.

[FiveGoodMen]

84. The target is moving fast and you have to stay on it.

[Pavulon]

85. Very Very easy.

The technology is available for other purposes.

Cobbling together a powerful laser and a tracking system would be easy.

heading speed altitude and distance simple math.

[Realityhack]

119. I think we drifed off topic...

intentionaly attempting to blind the pilots with such a setup would already be illigal... in about a dozen ways.

The law in quesiton is to address people playing with laser pointers.

Obviously if you wanted to intentionaly attempt this you would be using a much more powerful laser, probobly not visible (except posibly a secondary spoting beam) and you would have a steadied mount with optics to make sure you could see the target.... but um... thats not what we are talking about.

Hand held laser pointers are not a serious threat to aircraft IMO.

[Thor_MN]

87. If the target is moving AT you, it's speed is irrelevant.

The closer you are to the path of the target, the less the speed of the target matters in aiming at it. If it is moving directly at you, the only thing that matters is that you get out of the way as it passes through the space you were in.

Crude experiment, but put a flashlight on a bookshelf. Put yourself in the beam of the flashlight. Walk directly toward it. What the heck?!?! How did the bookself track you at the speed of a couple feet per second? There's no way the bookshelf could possibly have reflexes fast enough to track you!! It must have a had surplus Soviet era tracking system to keep the light in your eyes!!!

From the line of the runway, a plane seems to hang in space as it lands. It gets bigger as it approaches at a couple hundred miles an hour, but it moves very slowly in terms of pointing at it.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nevernose]

93. Occam's Razor

The simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.

My guess? Punk-ass kids or grown-up jackasses. Historically, we've had a lot more of them in the United States -- including Michigan -- than terorists.

If it were terrorists, they'd probably just use a rifle and a scope.

[Nevernose]

92. It's not bullshit -- it's a REAL problem (for once I'm being serious!)

As an amateur astronomer, I use green laser pointers all the time, and occasionally near the airport. We have to be very careful not to illuminate any airplanes. I doubt I could focus one barehanded on the cockpit of a plane for any length of time, but taped to my binoculars? No problem. I check out planes all the time with binoculars. Sometimes, if the sun's just right, I can even see the pilots.

The new breed of laser pointers really ARE visible for miles, and that's just the legal, unmodified ones. If the weather's cooperative, that can be in the daytime. Of course, in fairness, the only way I can see for a casual usuer like me to disrupt an airplane's operation would be remarkably coincidental -- I can't see accidentally doing anything other than briefly flash the cockpit. On purpose, however, it could be a serious nuisance, especially at take-off or landing. I would suspect punk-ass kids before I suspected terrorists, but still...

[Realityhack]

120. Interstingy enough...

the law they are considering has nothign to do with intentionaly blinding pilots with modified lasers straped to anything.

Its just about hand held lasers. The other version is alreay a crime in a half a dozen ways.

Pilots are probobly seeing these green beams and getting all upset. Realistincly its unlikely there will ever be an accident because some kid was pointing his laser pointer at a plane. The target (pilos eyes) are too small (no serious harm if it misses by a few inches) you have to hit both pilots. etc.

[Psephos]

97. Hey conspiracy theorists, next time try Googling before posting

Try this article for starters about a guy who was arrested for (and admitted to) lasing a cockpit. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade with actual, umm, proof that it not only *is* possible, but that it has been done, many times.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-01-11-laser-aircraft_x.htm

After that, if you google for "laser cockpit arrest" you will find many more instances of actual people caught doing it. I realize it's hard to press those keys and click the mouse, but somehow I hope a few of the conspiracy theorists will summon the strength and force of will needed for this monumental task.

As Bertrand Russell said, the more positively and completely you state something to be true, the more likely it is that others will believe it.

Peace.

[Ediacara]

99. The article also states

that most of these incidents took place near airports, and as a result were probably during takeoff and landing (although that is not directly stated). As many have pointed out, it's next to impossible to aim a handheld laser pointer at an airplane at cruising altitude, but any jackass can sit at the end of the runway and create chaos....

[Psephos]

100. Excellent point n/t

[rman]

102. a few 100 yards range for ordinary laser pointers is not theory

If there's any truth to the story, then something other then a run-of-the-mill laser pointer was used.

[FiveGoodMen]

103. Thanks for making us all better people.

[Nihil]

106. "Terra! Terra!" a.k.a. a steaming heap of Bushie misinfo.

It *is* possible to swat a laser beam across a cockpit and I'd accept that
a pilot might well notice this unexpected flash. Ok, that's the truthful
bit of the report dealt with.

It is one hell of a leap to go from "noticing an odd flash" to
>"It's only a matter of time before one of these laser beam pranksters ends
> up killing over 200 people in a commercial airline crash"
and to pretend otherwise is to either buy into the bullshit or be wilfully
spreading it.

For a start, a handheld (or even tripod mounted) laser at 2 miles has a
hell of a dispersion. The people upthread who used to play with lasers
admit that they used to "light up the WHOLE stop sign" at 100 yards.
Care to work out the intensity loss when we're talking about the dispersion
at 500 yards (or more)? Most of the jokers who mentioned the serious power
lasers seemed to gloss over the fact that these were not visible. UV can
penetrate atmospheric conditions with less loss than a red or green laser.
Has anyone been mysteriously blinded by an invisible ray recently?
Hmmm ... maybe the invisible ones are too hard to aim ... or maybe the
low power ones (that most of the public have encountered in ignorance) are
just more "newsworthy" than anything that could actually cause a problem?

The whole report is just more bullshit, waffle and crap from the propaganda
arm of the US government intended to distract from the real issues.

Do you have to see Karl's signature on the report before you understand?

[Triana]

114. I thought shining lasers at planes was already illegal...

...isn't there already a law against that? I thought it was already illegal.

[chapel hill dem]

123. There are laser weapons that can blind pilots. Read Lt. Jack Daly's story

http://www.ltjackdaly.com/

Note his accusations of a DOD coverup.