Russia Warns U.S. Against Striking Iran ("May stir the WHOLE WORLD")

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

Associated Press
Russia Warns U.S. Against Striking Iran
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV , 02.16.2006, 11:29 AM

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/02/16/ap2532379.html

Russia's top military chief on Thursday warned the United States against launching a military strike against Iran and a top diplomat voiced hope that close cooperation with China could help resolve the Tehran nuclear crisis.

With tension mounting over Iran's nuclear programs, Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky, the chief of Russia's general staff, warned the United States against attacking Iran.

"A military scenario can't be ruled out," Baluyevsky was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies. He said that while Iran's military potential cannot compare to the United States', "it is hard to predict how the Muslim world will respond to the use of force against Iran."

"This may stir the whole world, and it is crucial to prevent anything like that," Baluyevsky was quoted as saying.

[marmar]

1. The Oil World War III

... really would be the war to end all wars ... and humankind.

:cry:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

4. It would absolutely be WWIII...

...and if the "insurgents" in the wake of the Iraq invasion have people worried, just imagine the anger and retaliation that would follow a strike on Iran.

[katty]

65. Iran is not Iraq- bomb,invade,send troops is a neocon wet dream

[Bo]

91. Israel would be there bombing as well

No way they will let wackos develop an A-Bomb

[Zhade]

104. Israel better invade itself, then.

NT!

[LibertyorDeath]

153. LOL!

"Israel better invade itself, then."

[eridani]

115. 90% of Iran's oil is in one small province close to Iraq

The neocons don't give a damn about the rest of Iran. Of course, it's still a seriously stupid idea, which won't work out well. But that may not stop them.

[sarcasmo]

70. IMHO, this would bring daily terror strikes and car bombs to the U.S.

Starting WWIII will unleash all of the hidden cells in this country.

[me b zola]

79. That is what I think the neocons want

What better way to fill the huge detention facilities that they are building. They *want* chaos & mayhem to come here so they have an excuse to take the few civil liberties that still exists.

[Megahurtz]

97. They're probably just chomping at the bit

to declare Marshall Law.:scared:

[auagroach]

111. martial law...

you meant unless that pun was intended?

[me b zola]

129. Their response to Katrina makes me believe that they already are

..chomping at that bit.

[twaddler01]

77. why not bring the mideast here?

*sigh*

[Zhade]

81. And that anger and retaliation would be justified.

Do you know how uncomfortable it makes me for us to be in a position where that statement is true?

[ktlyon]

21. yes

to George Bush

Does it really make sense to fight over the last drops of oil? Don't you think it is time to move on to renewable energy sources? Is that so hard to understand?

[cliss]

46. Your post -

says it all. Short, simple, to the point.

Bush and Cheney are so typical of people who are locked into the Industrial Age. They have an extractive mentality; they just want to know how much they can suck out of the earth & make as much profit as possible. They really are narrow-minded, completely locked into their own thinking.

I know this because I've worked with company executives. They are unbelievably closed-minded. If it involves money, trust me they will never do anything that will risk the bottom line. Even if it means their own destruction a little farther down the road. They are trapped in their own system, absolutely unable to think outside the box.

Profits NOW are all that matters. It's sick and scary. The answer to your question = Yes, it is so hard to understand.

[twaddler01]

78. For them MONEY = EVERYTHING

they care not about anything else. Sickening really :puke:

[formercia]

2. Isn't that the point?

Stirring up the whole World as an excuse to become Dictator for Life?

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

5. I believe the distinction Bush would cherish the most...

...would be going down in history as the man who triggered World War III.

[formercia]

8. as we all rapture in a flash of thermonuclear plasma. n/t

[lovuian]

3. Russia knows we are getting ready for WWIII

Hopefully not but its sure looking like it...

[K-W]

43. There is no world war here, just another asymetric conflict

Iran has no significant allies, the rest of the militaries in the middle east are allied to the United States which is fully deployed in the middle east. This will be as much of a world war as the invasion of Iraq was a world war.

The governments of powerful countries are fully and wholly committed to supporting US imperial policy. Nobody with any power is going to stand between the US and Iran.

[worldgonekrazy]

62. It would be a complicated mess

I agree that it would not spur a World War as no powerful country would take direct action to oppose a U.S. war with Iran. But it would create a lot of sticky situations that we can only begin to guess at.

For example, how would Russia and China react to such a move? Russia has been angered by what they see as the West, of course led by the U.S., encroaching on "their" territory, meaning territory formerly within the Soviet Union. They see this as a threat to their national security. Likewise, they were not happy with the Iraq war because they saw it as a U.S. attempt to grab power in a vital region, which Russia, of course, also has an interest in. In this way, we are basically forcing Russia to ally itself with China in a hazy opposition to U.S. power. On the other hand, one could argue that these countries are, to some extent, part of the world economy. If the United States takes action to bring a nation and its resources under the full influence of the world economy, it ought to (theoretically) be good for Russia and China. So what are those nations' reactions to such a war?

Then there is the question of what would happen in the rest of the Middle East. The neo-cons would, of course, push (and perhaps even believe in) a rosy scenario in which internal opposition in Iran, buoyed by a U.S. attack on the leaders they hate, would rise up and pretty much do the job for us. Such an event could even have a rippling effect in such nations as Syria. I find such an outcome to be quite unlikely, given our troubles with Iraq. It seems more likely that this would further perception, already rampant in the Middle East, of the United States as being engaged in an imperial and even crusading adventure to subject the people of those nations to U.S. rule. We have seen, in Iraq, that such a perception can fuel a formidable and deep seated insurgency. Imagine what would happen should the U.S. stoke another such fire in a larger Muslim nation with a great deal more military firepower laying about.

So no, it wouldn't cause a World War, but it would certainly create a complicated mess that would almost certainly undermine U.S. power, perhaps fatally.

BTW, I do not mean to suggest that you support a war with Iran.

[K-W]

71. It would increase US power, but perhaps undermine its security.

A tradeoff the strategic classes in the US have never minded making.


For example, how would Russia and China react to such a move? Russia has been angered by what they see as the West, of course led by the U.S., encroaching on "their" territory, meaning territory formerly within the Soviet Union. They see this as a threat to their national security. Likewise, they were not happy with the Iraq war because they saw it as a U.S. attempt to grab power in a vital region, which Russia, of course, also has an interest in. In this way, we are basically forcing Russia to ally itself with China in a hazy opposition to U.S. power. On the other hand, one could argue that these countries are, to some extent, part of the world economy. If the United States takes action to bring a nation and its resources under the full influence of the world economy, it ought to (theoretically) be good for Russia and China. So what are those nations' reactions to such a war?

Of course Russia and China would prefer the US not increasing its control. But as you said, they arent going to start a nuclear war over it. And, as you say, they have already signed onto the US dominated global economy. Like all businessmen they would love to have Iran as a point of leverage for them, but they arent going to risk everything just to protect it.

Then there is the question of what would happen in the rest of the Middle East. The neo-cons would, of course, push (and perhaps even believe in) a rosy scenario in which internal opposition in Iran, buoyed by a U.S. attack on the leaders they hate, would rise up and pretty much do the job for us. Such an event could even have a rippling effect in such nations as Syria. I find such an outcome to be quite unlikely, given our troubles with Iraq.

I wouldnt believe a word that comes out of neocons mouth including thier supposed ideas about nation building and democracy.

It seems more likely that this would further perception, already rampant in the Middle East, of the United States as being engaged in an imperial and even crusading adventure to subject the people of those nations to U.S. rule.

Of course it would and for good reason. But they have always thought this, it has never stopped the US from continuing its imperial project.

We have seen, in Iraq, that such a perception can fuel a formidable and deep seated insurgency. Imagine what would happen should the U.S. stoke another such fire in a larger Muslim nation with a great deal more military firepower laying about.

If the US occupies Iran it will indeed face a strong insurgency, potentially on a larger scale than Iraq, but that is a different issue really.

So no, it wouldn't cause a World War, but it would certainly create a complicated mess that would almost certainly undermine U.S. power, perhaps fatally.

Where in this equation is the US losing power? I can see where it is losing security, it will increase the risk of terrorism and increase the danger to troops, but that is a price our government is willing to pay to control Iran.

[Zhade]

105. Great analysis, save one thing: I don't think the U.S. can control Iran.

Shit, they can't even control Iraq, and Iran actually has a military in decent shape.

That, plus the spillover of the insurgency from Iraq into Iran, will reveal that they're dreaming if they think they can control Iran.

[auagroach]

112. It's all fair in love and war

One and only one scenario; The Iranians ring up Socialist prime minister and apologize profusely but they inform the Spaniard they are about to drop a nuclear bomb on La Palma, war being war. "Por que?" the Socialist prime minister beseechs. "So the the entire United States Eastern seaboard, from Miami to Maine, is hit by a man-made tsunami, eso es." "Que lastima!"

[auagroach]

116. Doubting DU'ers?

Dr. Lewis Zimmerman, of the Counter-Terrorism Prevention Group, has written a document outlining how terrorists could plan terrorist attacks to take advantage of weaknesses in geological formations, structural instability in volcanos and the transmission of seismic waves through the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

"Essentially, terrorists could take advantage of several geologic phenomena and coordinate a simultaneous attack on the United States using the old Cold War strategy known as "Time on Target", where several attacks are launched at different times and reach their destination simultaneously" said Dr. Zimmerman

According to Dr. Zimmerman "terrorists would first need to acquire nuclear weapons and materials from rogue nuclear states like North Korea and Iran or from nuclear armed Pakistan".

The first target on the terrorists hit list according to Dr. Zimmerman would be the Western flank of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the island of La Palma which is located in the Canary Islands off the coast of Spain. The terrorists would plant one or two nuclear devices on the Cumbre Vieja volcano and detonate them in order to knock the Western flank of the volcano into the Atlantic Ocean.

The resulting tsunami created by the falling land mass would race across the Atlantic Ocean within a matter of hours and destroy the entire Eastern seaboard of the United States with a 150 foot tsunami. Tens of millions would be killed within seconds.

[dubya_dubya_III]

119. Rather Preposterous

When just one nuke on a certain tiny nation with a curiously large nuclear arsenal could easily provide the impetus for vastly far more disastrous strategic retaliatory repercussions which in turn, would indicate several other likely preemptive global strategic pre-retaliatory necessities to preclude just such an imaginable retaliation.

This is very very serious stuff, such a catastrophic destabilizing event could instantly throw all the nuclear powers into a massive mixed defensive counter retaliatory and counter-offensive conflagration.

[sarcasmo]

72. If you don't think Dictator 43 is going to start WWIII you are sadly

mistaken. When we bomb Iran, not if but when.
China will choose which countries they want to take over and the old hardline Russians will join in with Iran. This is all about Iran switching it's oil trading from Dollars to Euros the oil bourse as it is called.
Dictator 43 is the worlds worst nightmare and that has become a reality.

[K-W]

73. Please provide some evidence.

So you think that if the US decides to attack Iran, China and Russia are going to diengage from the US, attempt to grab up land and restart the Cold War or perhaps a Hot War?

What exactly leads you to think this? Where in Russian and Chinese policy do you see any indication that they intend to do this, especially over Iran? This isnt the cold war.

[dubya_dubya_III]

83. It's this big bunch of nukes somewhere I dare not mention

And it's Pakistan the critical security problem and India, China and Russia other obvious critical oil concerns.

The owners of this site have forbidden discussion of this topic here

[melody]

89. Sorry, I think that's sadly mistaken

A war would be far more costly over all than any economic hit the US would take from the dollar thrumming. No one is going to start WWIII to avoid a depression.

[Megahurtz]

100. I definitely believe that Russia would

side with Iran.:nuke:

[alarcojon]

76. It would be a fucking mess

a much bigger mess than Iraq. Iran has a real army and actual WMD.

[Zhade]

106. Bullshit. Iran is YEARS away from nukes.

Stop pushing that lie.

[auagroach]

114. Zhade, please tell us...

why couldn't the Persians have bought a few black market nukes, from, say, the Pakistanis, the Chinese, the Russian mafia or any other merchants of death scouting the world for a quick buck. I mean, why is the idea so hard to imagine?

[dubya_dubya_III]

118. Because Iran is simply irrelevant unless we take the bait

The simple fact that the tottering military junta in Pakistan already has "Muslim" nukes built through beneficent CIA Mafia subversion, and thankfully to this point, not a representative democratic government. Just recall the 10,000 strong demonstrations against Mohamed cartoons, and the fact that it is also the home of the CIA's ISI Al Quaeda Mafia and still strongly suspected of harboring most of it's key players by the will of a wildly popular, but thus far fairly well managed Muslim insurgency, if not it's own hidden more extreme ISI Mafia government.

Extreme radical Conservative Jewish and Christian forces bent on ignoring the issues of the fair and just religious sharing of Jerusalem and the statehood of Palestine are ruthlessly evading negotiation, and rather ever-escalating this global religous conflict, marauding and occupying more and more of the Arab Muslim world to suppress something, that by bald faced shame they have come to call "terror" rather than by it's genuine meaning (Global Religious Fascist War over al Aqsa/Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the occupation of Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).

[Zhade]

138. That's not the idea being sold to us, though.

We're being told they're developing nukes. Even if they are, it's years away.

And even if your scenario is accurate, Iran is STILL not a threat to us, because its government would like to stay in power and not be killed.

[auagroach]

143. Why not? Please tell me the speciousness of my arguement.

Agreed that the Bushies are again selling us a pig in a poke but I still can't get my head around why everyone appears to think the Iranians are supposed to be so afraid of dying for something they believe in. For example, if someone breaks into another's home and does dastardly deeds to the occupants but one family member survives and swears vengance nothing is going to change her/his mind. A counter strike against the "Great Satan" any which way is completely understandable to me and I can't see why others refuse to believe that the Persians won't stop at anything if and when Ameraisrael violates their sovereignty.

BTW here's another scenario and with all due respect here's another btw. They're not "my" scenarios.

"The second target which would be hit shortly after the atomic detonations on the island of La Palma would be Yellowstone Lake located inside Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming. Long before the attack, the terrorists would drive a boat into the middle of Yellowstone Lake and submerge a sealed 55-gallon drum containing a nuclear device to the bottom of the lake.

Vulcanologists have discovered a huge "bulge" which is forming at the bottom of the lake which could one day give way, implode the magma chamber underneath it and create what is know as a "Super Volcano". A nuclear device detonated by the terrorists in Yellowstone Lake would trigger the chain of events leading to the explosion of the "Super Volcano".

The "Super Volcano" explosion would cause a massive detonation which would destroy much of the landscape in the Rocky Mountain states of Wyoming, Colorado, Montana and Idaho with superheated pyroclastic flows moving outwards at supersonic speeds to a blast radius of 75 miles. Volcanic magma would shoot 30 miles into the atmosphere during the main explosion.

The massive eruption would bury the entire Great Plains under a massive layer of volcanic ash which would destroy America's agriculture industry and suffocate tens of millions of people in North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa and Minnesota. The Midwest would become a modern day version of Pompeii, the Roman city buried by Mount Vesuvius in 79 A.D.

A large portion of America's strategic nuclear arsenal would be incapacitated because the missile silos located in the Western states would be buried under several feet of hot volcanic ash."

[Zhade]

145. Wow, no, in your first paragraph we agree.

Of course the Iranians will retaliate with whatever they can use should the United States (and Israel) attack them without sufficient provocation, which of course they don't have.

As far as the, uh, terrorists-detonating-a-super-nuclear-volcano thing...um, interesting? I don't know what to make of that. Where did you come across this, er, imaginative analysis of terrorist strategies?

Did the issue's headlines also scream "Bat Boy Returns - Married With Children!" from the black-and-white cover?

[auagroach]

146. Gannon does a bat service now? With kids?

What an ugly picture you draw, White House batboy Jeff Gannon, with wife and kids no less, whacking and soddomizing (Saddamizing?) Boy George and Turd Blossom in Rangers' uniforms no less, pants draped around their knees, jock-strapped bare buttocks red as babboon ass's, images of J.Edgar Hoover in a tutu strobing on the walls with Elton John blaring from the stereo.
Uh oh there goes my "imaginative analysis" again.
No really, ignoring your attempted mockery, again I ask, because you haven't debunked them yet, why are these scenarios so inconceivable? They're excellent bang-for-the-buck weapons against the infidels, at least in their eyes. And don't pull another American and ridicule what you can't logicaly explain

[Zhade]

152. I find them to be imaginative.

Are they from your imagination? Or do you have a source for these Clancy-esque scenarios?

That was my point.

Not sure why you go into the whole gay sex thing. I find it distasteful (not because I dislike gay sex - I'm queer - but because it seems to be mocking them using gay sex as something that's somehow worth mockery).

[alarcojon]

120. Did I say nukes?

No, I didn't. There are WMD other than nukes.

Iran is currently able to employ chemical weapons, and Iran is progressing in its development of a large self-supporting CW infrastructure. Iran continues to upgrade and expand its chemical warfare production infrastructure and munitions arsenal. The magnitude of this effort suggests that the Iranian leadership intends to maintain a robust CW capability.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/cw.htm

I agree with you about the nukes, but then I wasn't pushing that.

[Zhade]

137. Okay, whew. Can't tell, these days.

I'm seeing way too many DUers fall for the "Iran is a threat" bullshit.

Fwiw, those WMD are not worth a war.

[alarcojon]

141. I completely agree with you

and you're right, too many people around here are falling for the same old tired bullshit.

[Zhade]

144. Awesome. Sorry I got hot.

Stressful days, these.

Peace!

[dubya_dubya_III]

82. British America's Arab 'allies' are all tottering dictatorships.

The economic security concerns of the entire European, Asian, and African continents rest upon their Arab energy security. This tactical oil security concern affects China, Pakistan and India foremost, then Europe's and to a far lesser supply extent, also oil producing (deep freeze)Russia and Britain, and then the resulting economic security of them and the rest of the world.

Tottering British Saudi Arabian tyrants are in acute danger of being overthrown by popular Muslim socialist forces headquartered there, as is the Mushariff regime in Pakistan. Iraqi oil production remains sharply curtailed and offline. Oil price demand is already outrageous as it is, in spite of flat out production everywhere else.

A most unwelcome addition to that critical economic issue is that any perceived danger that might provoke an oil production affecting attack from Israel, or second British American anti-democratic attack on Iran at this time presents a critical economic and security flashpoint for the entire world.

The death of secular Ba'athism (closest thing to liberty) in the Arab world, due to apparent British American foreign policy lunacy, coupled with the persecutions and secular horror of this global religious-socialist pissing match over Jerusalem, has given added impetus to the rise of Muslim Fascism (politicized religion) as a complimentary leveling point for rising democratic expression in the Arab world.

We must pay closer attention to the Muslim perception of biased Christian and Jewish Fascist aspects in our own rigid and uncooperative policies

Everyone with a brain knows this War is all about the Al Aqsa Mosque on Temple Mount, and it's totally unnecessary dangerous, destructive, divisive and childish. A tripartite religious "veto commission" should govern an independent Jerusalem as the UN has always intended.

[Buck Rabbit]

133. I agree with your post except ...

The wild card is China. Not that China would attack the US to save Iran. But they might use the neocon build up to out flank the US to form an alliance of diplomatic protection for Iran in exchange for a preferred supply agreement.

China's strangle hold on the US economy is enough to stop the Bushitas in their tracks with a single phone call.

[tabasco]

148. Yeah, Russia sure isn't a powerful country.

:crazy:

[AntiFascist]

84. One question is: how much have they prepared for it? n/t

[longship]

6. Danger, Will Robinson. Danger.

Recommended and :kick:ed

[MadMaddie]

7. If Russia of all countries is warning the US

This is very serious. Russia and China will side with Iran..

If the US attacks Iran, Iran will attach and demolish our troops in Iraq..We have no troops in sufficient strength in the US to prevent foreign boots from coming on our soil.

The thing I find most disturbing is the * Cabal really has no clue do they. This is childs play and they really don't get it. They have never been planners....they are talking and bullying other countries and they honestly don't think these countries will react forcefully....


The leadership in this country needs to be removed and prosecuted for Treason!!

[glitch]

9. Unless they really are intent on destroying the US. It's not like they are

pro-democracy in any way.

They certainly are committing treason, it's important to watch what they do and assume their words are lies.

[MadMaddie]

12. Hey glitch...

I assume that everything they tell us is a lie. So if they make a statment I believe the opposite is true. I have been pretty accurate!!:hi:

[LynnTheDem]

10. Iran won't attack troops in Iraq. Iraqis will take care of that.

Iraq & Iran have a mutual protection pact; the new Iraqi government are allied with Iran, and al Sistani will simply call for Jihad, which the Shia majority will obey...al Sistani is Iranian.

Iran will, however, take out the 2 US fleets sitting (ducks) in the Strait.

And the rest of the world will realize the time of appeasment is over; the USA is a rogue nation that will not stop with Poland.

I mean Iraq.

[salinen]

20. Poland

hehe. Snorty McFlightpants will finally overtake Hitler for 1st place.

[Zhade]

107. I dunno...I foresee eager Iranians pouring over Iran's border...

...to exact some revenge.

Otherwise, I agree fully.

[Pharaoh]

13. while Iran cannot take on the US directly

It would be simple for them to take out the saudi oil port, thus crashing the world economy......

K&R

[MadisonProgressive]

32. Aren't you full of good news today!

[Pharaoh]

39. BRA!!!!!!

[jpak]

61. Iran has hundreds of SCUDS and home-grown ballistic missiles

with sufficient range to take out Saudi and Kuwaiti oil terminals.

They have been developing an asymmetric warfare doctrine since the western arms embargoes of the '70's and '80's.

That's about as asymmetric as it gets....

[Geo55]

85. Ding ding ding ! ...we have a winner !

ya see , the trick is , cut off the cats' legs before it tears your eyes out.
I love being a little plastic piece on the world game board , ...don't you ?

[melody]

90. Which is another reason none of this will happen n/t

[K-W]

59. I only agree with one point in your post.

If Russia of all countries is warning the US
This is very serious. Russia and China will side with Iran..

All Russia is saying is that if the US invades Iran it will upset Muslims. It is a vague warning, mild rhetoric from a Russian government that would certainly prefer an independent Iran, but gave up fighting the US over economic control a while ago. Russia and China may block UN resolutions and vocally oppose US action, but nobody is going to stand between the US and Iran. No nation is going to start WW3 or even the Second Cold War to protect the regime in Iran.

If the US attacks Iran, Iran will attach and demolish our troops in Iraq.

So Iran is going to attack and defeat the US military... How?

We have no troops in sufficient strength in the US to prevent foreign boots from coming on our soil.

Firstly, yes we do have troops in sufficient strength, but that really doesnt matter. How exactly do you imagine these boots would get on American soil when the United States has the most powerful Navy and Air Force in the world and is surrounded by nations militarily dependent on it. But that doesnt really matter because the nations surrounding Russia and China are our allies. Japan, India, Indonesia, Turkey, Europe. But even that doesnt matter because the US also features the most formidable nuclear arsenal in the world, the most powerful weapon system ever known to man.

Nobody is putting a boot on US soil. Nobody is getting nuked to defend the revolutionary government in iran. Nobody is going to invade the United States.

The thing I find most disturbing is the * Cabal really has no clue do they.
This is childs play and they really don't get it. They have never been planners....they are talking and bullying other countries and they honestly don't think these countries will react forcefully....

There is no evidence anywhere that Russia or China have any intention of initiating hostilities with the US and not only because it is a war they would lose.


The leadership in this country needs to be removed and prosecuted for Treason!!

That however, I have no problem agreeing with.

[dubya_dubya_III]

98. Iran isn't a problem, it's only indicative of oppression in Pakistan

The real problem is the Islamic nation that does have nukes that we can't do a damn thing about. You know, the little place the apocalyptic Christian Fascist Noble MI6-CIA Mafia built them and trained and armed Bin Laden in, and where they say they still think he is....

The one with the creaky front, military Junta 'in power'?

[Solon]

99. The only thing I disagree with is the Iraq situation...

Despite our technical superiority, unless we are able to take out Iran's troop positions from the air, which is probably an impossiblity in itself, they can easily fend off a ground invasion from exhausted US troops. At most, we will be able to take out the nuclear facilities from the air. Then it falls like this, any US ships in range of the Strait will be destroyed, the ports in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, along with Bahrain will also be destroyed. This leads to a worldwide depression pretty quickly, and if they shoot missles at the refineries of these nations and the pipelines, then this depression will last a long time. Now another thing to understand is that the troops in Iraq already have only a tentative control over Iraq, and already have their hands full just maintaining that control. Iraq will erupt into chaos, basically, and Iran, if it can secure its own airspace, can theoratically invade Iraq, probably under the aspices of freeing it from American oppression, and no nation, beyond Britian, and possibly Israel(we will warn them off the nuclear option) will send reinforcements to help. While you are correct that no nation will help Iran in defending itself from American aggression, the same will be largely true for the US as well.

[CottonBear]

113. Your analysis is terrifying. God help us all if BushCo invades Iran. n/t

[Buck Rabbit]

135. Disagree with parts.

Iranian troops can never mass together in offense or defense or they would be destroyed. They would need to hide in cities and play Stalingrad to be more effective than the Iraqi army was.

US Abram tank columns with helicopter support can go pretty much anywhere they want. Though they make lousy policemen, trying to stop them from rumbling towards a destination is suicidal.

I agree that Iran could raise havoc with their missiles on fixed oil installations and ships.

The greatest risk for Americans on land would be from militias in the Iraq army turning on their trainers. The current insurgency on Meth.

Anyway, it would still be horrible price to preempt a purely theoretical and improbable danger.

[kineneb]

149. technical superiority does not always win wars

Remember the British Army had technical superiority over the colonists in America. We all seem to be forgetting the "home turf advantage". The Iranians know their country well. We have virtually no intelligence about the country, courtesy of Chaney's outing Valerie Plame, et al. Iran is not Iraq, it is larger, far more rugged and much of the country is above 4000' elevation. The US military is probably not prepared to fight a mountain war on the ground.

Iran may not have many "official" friends, but I am willing to bet that many Islamic groups would join with them in the name of helping their brothers in Islam. The ME governments that are our "friends" will remain so only as long as they continue to profit from that friendship. They smile in our faces and laugh at us behind our backs. And their populations mostly hate the US, and have done so for years. Osama is not an anomaly, he embodies the hate for our presence near Mecca.

If local Iraqis are holding US troops at bay, think about what would happen if the military went up against a real foe.

[dubya_dubya_III]

94. As far as 'christian' fascism goes

We owe it to our faith in the true God that is Love Itself never to hasten nor tempt the day of final judgement, by hate, sin or designs.

At this stage, making Jerusalem an Independent Nation in a Three State solution is our only chance for both salvation and peace.

[anotherdrew]

11. APPARENTLY, PUTIN NEEDS TO WARN HOUSE DEMOCRATS TOO

our so-called Representatives just voted with the republicans in favor of more war.

call them all and tell them what you think of that!

[Pharaoh]

14. What's the point?

they have stopped listening to the voices of reason.........

[MadMaddie]

15. It's almost like comedy hour with our Representives..

Did they not learn their lesson from Iraq?
Did they not clue in from all of the rhetoric building up the Iraq war were lies?
What would make them think that this * Cabal is telling the truth this time?

What the hell is wrong with them?

[freefall]

22. It is truly hard to believe how they can be so stupid. Each Representative

and Senator should be forced to have a Gadfly position. A naysayer as opposed to a yes person. This person would be required to research and present the opposite of whatever the Congressmember's position was on an issue and the rest of the staff would have to respond to the criticism. It would expose all those staff members to different ways of thinking and they would have to hone their debating skills. Hey it would be a beginning.

Peace

freefall

[MadMaddie]

24. I like this idea...but that would imply...

that each Representative and Senator has the backbone to do something like this. But I think that most (not all) are to lazy and are satisfied with the status quo. They won't even consider taking a risk.

I fault us the constituants for not making them understand if they don't perform as we want them to we will get rid of them.


I would like them all-Repreentatives and Senators stand as one whole body and vote as a cohesive pac.

When you have the likes of Lieberman who are to busy bending over to the * regime it's hard to be cohesive.

Power to the People!!

[freefall]

25. In a system that revolves around money I don't think you can

blame us the constituents totally. As long as the corporations have a stranglehold on our elections we the citizens will have a hard time being heard.

Peace

freefall

[MadMaddie]

28. That is a good point...

So how do we get the corporations out of elections?

It's going to be a hell of a fight!!

Power to the People!!

[Vincardog]

30. you get the corporations outr of elections by PUBLIC FINANCING OF ELECTION

Then BAN ALL GIFTS to Government Employees.

[MadMaddie]

31. You are absolutely right....

Campaign Finance Reform= Public Financing of Elections

that is the only way to do it.:patriot:

[freefall]

140. On my good days I think it may be possible. n/t

[adigal]

16. What did they just vote on??

Info please.

[Megahurtz]

101. OMG!

Are you fucking serious?:banghead:

[specimenfred1984]

17. There's No "Crisis"

The only "crisis" is between the U.S. and Russian nuclear providers who want Iran's business. The propaganda-fed "crisis" of Iran wanting to blow up the world is pure BS.

It is correct that if the U.S. or Russia invaded Iran the entire world would resent it and take whatever actions each individual country could take. I am still amused at how the "Iraq has WMD" lies proved to be complete BS and yet the press and so many U.S. citizens completely ignore that and are ready and willing to believe "Iran wants WMD".

It'll only be a short period of time before some neo-puke traitor announces "simply stated, Iran now has WMD" and the propaganda cycle is completed. Informed and thinking people such as ourselves can tell republicans over and over again that it's all BS and they will simply laugh in your face.

They are fascists; we live in a fascist country full of brainwashed followers of torture and treason.

[redqueen]

19. Lovely post.

Wish it weren't so accurate.

Shocking and saddening how many will blindly follow leaders... even as so many are dying. For nothing.

[Zhade]

108. Look upthread - even DUers are falling for the lie of "Iran has WMD'.

I can't believe ANYONE is stupid enough to think this repeat is a first-run!

[burythehatchet]

18. Meanwhile, our Democrats, the opposition party

votes in lockstep with the Fascists. (Except Mr Kucinich, of course)

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

38. I too am digusted with our Dem Reps-they're in "Goose-Step" with the RW

Kucinich rocks!!
But small opposition isn't enough.

If we don't learn the easy way we will learn the hard way--
but one way or another we Humans WILL learn.
Thank Mr. Darwin for explaining this!

Get ready cuz here it comes--just a matter of time now...
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[dubya_dubya_III]

86. The MI6-CIA Mil-industrial Mafia control who you can vote for

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gordianot]

23. There it is a line being publicly drawn.

So someone is a little worried? Only an idiot would take this on. Problem is we have lots of idiots that just might cross the line.

[freefall]

27. Yes and the idiots have their backs to the wall lately and might

just decide that initiating another conflict is a way out of their troubles. I am very frightened and right now I need to go buy all the stuff you are supposed to have on hand in case of emergencies so I'll have to stop posting. Here is a link to a web site with lots of good information about what kinds of foods will last longest on your shelves, etc.

http://www.survivingpeakoil.com/article.php?id=limited_budget

Peace

freefall

[gordianot]

37. Been working at this for better than 4 years.

I have an absolutely unbelievable water supply.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

40. do you have a pond? or is it bottled? --any suggestions? n/t

[gordianot]

102. A subterranean underground spring that feeds the river.

Actually it is a major source of water into the river system. Had a couple divers try to swim into the cave, too much water flow makes it impossible. Our well (very shallow) taps into the underground river. The pump does not have to work very hard to produce water pressure. Really good luck. All for free and on the old family (paid for) farm. My son and I are turning it into a survival haven

Several other natural features are there also.

On edit: If it comes to really bad times I could support a fair population at that site, Republicans will not be welcome that includes a few relatives who have lately started to disagree with Bush.

My advice find a few cheap acres and drill a well. Build a simple log cabin. Dig a good deep cellar with concrete walls. For the price of a vacation condo you could have a decent retreat in times of desperation.

[Pharaoh]

41. ha ha freefall!

welcome to DU

I have alot of spam and rice on hand :toast:

[freefall]

139. Thanks, Pharoah. I'm a vegetarian so I have

peanut butter instead of spam. :hi:

[melody]

80. If nukes start flying, everyone is dying

No one is going to start the war. No one. Everyone will carry the big stick, as they have done before, so everyone will back off in equal steps, but they will back off.

I don't know why we dislike the government for fear-mongering when we're plenty capable of doing it to ourselves.

A lot of this "peak oil" stuff is being trumpeted by the same guys who brought us "Y2K". I was on boards arguing that we were all going to survive Y2K unharmed and got shouted down there, too. Peak oil and 2012 are now the media philosopher's Amway.

Both have aspects of truth in them, but neither will be doomsday.

[gordianot]

103. Correct peak oil will eventually happen, maybe not in our lifetime.

The same clowns who set oil prices are the people who report oil reserves, not exactly very trustworthy.

Environmental changes are happening in our lifetime in a very unpredictable manner. You're right not doomsday, but isn't social chaos possible?

One problem about nuclear war I seldom see discussed is that modern nuclear weapons are much cleaner and efficient than they used to be. Progress comes to everything even WMD.

[melody]

109. probably not

Would we stand by while Europe was in chaos? Of course not. Would we stand by while Canada or Australia/New Zealand was in chaos? Of course not. We'd even feel very badly about non-familial nations being in an uproar. Chances are, most reasonable people feel the same way about us in other countries. Most of us are sane and ethical, thank heavens. Sociopaths only comprise 20-25% of the population, although there tend to be more in government as well as all power centers, for obvious reasons. Still, *most* people in government mean well. We have many more Jimmy Carters and Al Gores than we have George Bushes (thank heavens). That's the case in all nations/cultures.

We're not going to blindly sit by while the whole world goes into some systematic madness. Just so, we won't follow policies that will lead to that. For one thing, it's bad for business (corporatists are global thieves). For another, it's bad for the people at the top. They need us churning out a tax base to fund their lifestyles. They certainly don't want to have to pay for the roads and the government themselves! :)

They'll do a lot of growling and hissing, but they'll arrive at a middle road that will settle the problem. Probably some shared-government idea. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some UK/North America/Australia-New Zealand subset government arise to do business with continental Europe and vice versa. It behooves all of them to do business peacefully with each other.

[gordianot]

124. You bet we would stand by. NOLA is still in chaos after 9 months.

The Supreme leader makes plenty of great speeches without any action. FEMA is in as much disarray as homeland security. Incompetence reigns in Bush Merica. They not only stand by, they watch it sink. You won't see any Marshall plans coming out of the Bush adventures.

Halliburton is building detention camps for an immigration emergency (who knows what that is?). Watch the 30,000 year old fauna melt from glaciers in Greenland (which holds enough ice to raise all the oceans by 20 feet). We are short of one hurricane, ice storm, corrupt politician, earthquake, sick bird, financial crash, and panic attack from disruption and chaos. Part of life, just more people to deal with.

The ultra rich have survived revolutions and World Wars and could survive a little market adjustment if it would get rid of those pushy entitlements.

[melody]

125. I said US not THEM

There are other people in positions of responsibility in government. They're the ones bringing down Bush right now, although not without one helluva fight. We aren't alone in feelings about Bush.

Halliburton is doing the same thing that Oliver North was writing about twenty years ago. They were building them back then, too. It's the old Rex-84 plan coming to the fore again.

We're in a warming process that has happened over time. We're a highly adaptable creature. I have some faith that we can survive largely intact as a society. We've done it before, with far fewer skills/tools at our disposal. We're ALL short one death of the end of the world. The end of the world comes to people every day, as it will for us. We're all going to die. It's just a question of when. THAT said, these people in positions of power have a much nicer standard of living to protect than we do. They're not going to risk their bounty on many things.

I don't mean "pushy entitlements" - I think that's a foregone conclusion. For instance, my husband and I are planning on no social security. There will definitely be huge changes in store. But we've come through times just as bad and we will again.

I mean, forgive me for being an optimist. lol Put me on ignore, if you prefer. There's simply too much at stake for too much to go too wrong, beyond our capacity to address it.

[melody]

26. forgive me for inserting some optimism into this

If Bush is so worried about public opinion that he's making Cheney walk the public plank on this gun matter, he's not going to turn around and nuke Iran. In the first place, it would solve nothing. In the second, it would bring about the destruction of the planet *he* lives on. The man is such a coward, he wouldn't come out of his bunker to face a hurricane. He has been making too many decisions based on his own long-term fiscal well-being. He's not worried about nukes if he's worrying about the bottom line.

Russia is putting on pressure because they're going to benefit from the Iranian oil burse (followed by many others) that may be coming shortly that they helped bring about. This is basically a collaboration by old friends and enemies to free our hammerlock on the global economy. It'll mean our economic destruction (and probably third-world level poverty for most Americans), but business is business and most people now hate us anyway. Bush and the right-wing in power now aren't about to help us.

THAT'S the bleak future I'M worried about.

It's one thing to send a bunch of poor kids and furners in to do his own bidding and yet another thing to risk his OWN flesh to the nukes.

All this nuke-rattling is nothing more than pressure on the economic talks ongoing to head-off the denomination catastrophe, if possible.

[gordianot]

34. Now or later, fast or slow, depends on your view of the future.

Do we prefer a quick or lingering demise? Has anyone seen any long term hopeful signs lately? Maybe Homo Sapiens is a dead end and we are going to end up like the rest of the erect apes.

[melody]

36. oh, now there's a bright and sunny perspective :)

If that's the case, then our staying in an optimistic denial for awhile will do no one any harm.

I'll take the long drawn out one, thanks. I've more faith in our species to evolve than I would have had in earlier primate populations.

[gordianot]

47. That's what I have been hoping for but I wonder.

There are two troops of Baboons in Africa that got into a fight over a garbage dump. The troop who finally won the right to claim the dump was for the most part the strongest group with the most alpha males. Only problem is they started dieing off after eating tainted meat left in the dump. What was left of the winning troop was females and males of lower rank who were into grooming behavior, care of the infants and not garbage dump fighting. Over the last several years the behavior of this troop has changed and the aggressive alpha male culture has disappeared, much nicer Baboons. Apparently some anthropologist have been concerned that this troop and its culture will survive competition.

The human alpha males are still into garbage dump raiding, they can kill each other off or will suffer the eventual ill effects of winning. I suspect we have much in common with Baboons. The jury is still out as to the outcome.

[melody]

51. Baboon pack don't time bind as homo sapiens do. They don't have a future.

We do, therefore we do.

I hope. :)

[gordianot]

56. As a species Baboons are older than us. Their violent behavior worked.

We are relative newcomers on this planet. What I find fascinating our ancestors were here the same time as other humanoid species. Why did we survive and others die off? Given the quick changes in human evolution what may come next and where will it come from?

[melody]

63. Yes, but...

We have various other more "specialized" assets that also work in our favor. Baboon vocalizations are more limited than homo sapiens, for instance (George Bush notwithstanding, of course).

As for human evolution, I have all manner of "insane" ideas on our "graduated equilibrium" that I reserve for my crazy anthropology buds. lol You talk like that amid mainstream science folk, you get branded as a heretic.

[undergroundpanther]

55. get rid of alphas

Do not tolerate social domination.Refuse resist and never bow down or comprimise with a bully..That's what it takes to be free people.

[gordianot]

58. There are good lessons here for those who are willing to heed them.

This dialog even entered South African politics.

[raccoon]

42. Thanks, Melody. Although most of my life I've been a pessimist,

I agree with you here.

"It's one thing to send a bunch of poor kids and furners in to do his own bidding and yet another thing to risk his OWN flesh to the nukes."

[Pharaoh]

45. Sorry melody

But you forgot one small factoid,

THESE GUYS ARE INSANE!!!!

[melody]

52. No, they're not - they're sociopaths. Sociopaths are quite sane

They look out for their own butts first.

[gordianot]

64. They are sane in legal parlance. Cheney is a classic Sociopath.

But remember prisons everywhere are full of sociopaths.

[melody]

74. Yes, but ...

Sociopaths in prison kill people/hurt people other than themselves. Cheney would be nuking his own backside, too.

[katty]

66. absolutely-Iranian burse, beginning of end for petrodollar gridlock

[TexasLawyer]

29. "it is hard to predict how the Muslim world will respond..."

I think one could possibly extrapolate on Muslim world response from the Muslim rage at the cartoons, the Abu Ghraib photos, etc...

Meanwhile, as per Seymour Hersh, our geniuses in Washington believe that Israel and US will, by bombing suspected nuclear sites in Iran, unleash a wave of gratitude toward us by the people of Iran. Unbelievable!!!!

"I truly believe we will be greeted as liberators." Dick Cheney prior to pre-emptive attack on Iraq. Can't these people learn from their mistakes?

[melody]

48. They don't really believe that

Neither did Cheney. They had to act like they thought this, in order to disguise their real motives.

Cheney is a die-hard materialist. He's in control and he's no religious zealot. He cares enough about his life that he carries around the entire cast of ER and the black egg that Darth Vader sleeps in. :) (That last line thanks to TDS). He's not a moron. He also knows that while his butt will go into the underground, his friends and most of his family will not.

They are posturing themselves hardline in this in order to look tough at the bargaining table. It goes along with Poppy Bush's philosophy of "going to the bargaining table, but carrying a stick".

[54anickel]

33. Oh good grief! Don't encourage the lil Bushita Crusaders!!!

[melody]

49. Were you suggesting the optimists are "Bushita Crusaders"?

If you're calling me a troll, I'd point out that I'm a member and have been here a long while. I'd also be happy to point you to my website with lots of liberal-related links and information on it. :eyes:

Why is it that if you profess love of country (and I think our nation - sans George BushCo -- is as forward thinking and decent as any country) and/or optimism, you're called a troll here? Doesn't that just verify our detractors' opinions of us?

[54anickel]

69. Huh? Where did you get the idea I was calling anyone a troll. My reply

was to the original post, hadn't even read your post - until just now.

[melody]

75. Okay, then I withdraw my comments and apologize for my stupidity :) n/t

[MadisonProgressive]

35. I guess we can remove our tin-foil hats now

[Pharaoh]

44. Damn blizzard here in Blue mounds WI

how are other parts of the midwest holding up in the storm?

PS: thank God for Beer!

[MadisonProgressive]

50. It's a complete blizzard here

Can't really see anything outside but we've been having a lot of thunder!

[Pharaoh]

53. Yes The Brandy is now flowing in Wisconsin

bbbrrrrraaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MadisonProgressive]

54. I'm stone cold sober!

[Pharaoh]

57. Then I have a Bridge in brooklyn I'd like to sell you....

[MadisonProgressive]

60. I said stoned and cold sober

[DemonFighterLives]

67. Thank You Russia

It is past time for some sanity.
Chimpy will just take this as a dare and thinks he is ready to take on all comers. Bring em on says the awol chimpanzee!

To Russia with Love! :toast:

[Triana]

68. WWIII - isn't that what Drinky Dumbass and Friends want?

I said to myself and several others when that twit was appointed, that he WOULD START WWIII. And, he just might yet. I'd rather be wrong though.

[Klukie]

121. Funny I said the same thing......

and everyone thought I was nuts. I also said at the time that China would be the aggressor. I remember right after this idiot was elected he started running his mouth about Taiwan. There is no doubt in my mind that China is a sleeping Giant and it sure doesn't help when Dumbshit announces to the world in the SOTU that is the mission of the US to spread freedom and democracy and put an end to tyranny. I am afraid, very afraid. Sometimes I look at my children and envision them crying because they are hungry and I have nothing to feed them or worse yet having to hold them in my arms and watch them take their last breath. I know that this may sound crazy, but I truly believe that the powers that be are setting us up for disaster.

[Clara T]

87. OPLAN 1002-04 - The Khuzestan Gambit

OPLAN 1002-04 has probably been revised to reflect the American occupation of Iraq, and the power projection opportunities this provides against Iran. The Zagros Mountains form a natural pallisade defending Iran from incursions from Iraq. The Iranian province of Khuzestan is the one large piece of flat Iranian terrain to the west of the Zagros Mountains. American heavy forces could swiftly occupy Khuzestan, and in doing so seize control of most of Iran's oil resources, and non-trivial portions of the country's water supply and electrical generating capacity.

Khuzestan is the most important pivot of Iran's economy. The existence of such huge resources as oil, gas and water in Khuzestan have changed the economic appearance of Iran. Oil first erupted from a well in the Massjed e Soleyman area, located in the southern Khuzestan province. The two principal mountain ranges, the Zagros and the Elburz, diverge from a point of intersection in the Caucasus mountains; the former crosses Iran in a south-easterly direction toward the Persian Gulf.





The vast majority of Iran's crude oil reserves are located in giant onshore fields in the southwestern Khuzestan region near the Iraqi border and the Persian Gulf. Iran has 32 producing oil fields, of which 25 are onshore and 7 offshore. Major onshore fields include the following: Ahwaz-Asmari (700,000 bbl/d); Bangestan (around 245,000 bbl/d current production, with plans to increase to 550,000 bbl/d), Marun (520,000 bbl/d), Gachsaran (560,000 bbl/d), Agha Jari (200,000 bbl/d), Karanj-Parsi (200,000 bbl/d); Rag-e-Safid (180,000 bbl/d); Bibi Hakimeh (130,000 bbl/d), and Pazanan (70,000 bbl/d). Major offshore fields include: Dorood (130,000 bbl/d); Salman (130,000 bbl/d); Abuzar (125,000 bbl/d); Sirri A&E (95,000 bbl/d); and Soroush/Nowruz (60,000 bbl/d).

According to the Oil and Gas Journal (1/1/04), Iran holds 125.8 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, roughly 10% of the world's total, up from 90 billion barrels in 2003. In October 1999, Iran announced that it had made its biggest oil discovery in 30 years, a giant onshore field called Azadegan located in the southwestern province of Khuzestan, a few miles east of the border with Iraq. Reportedly, the Azadegan field contains proven crude oil reserves of 26 billion barrels. In July 2004, Iran's oil minister stated that the country's proven oil reserves had increased again, to 132 billion barrels, following new discoveries in the Kushk and Hosseineih fields in Khuzestan province.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-1002.htm

[Strelnikov_]

92. Whoa, 150 Mi. Overpressure Radius

Is that the new 1000 MT daisycutter they are working on?

[Warren Stupidity]

93. The Iraqis thought they could just roll over the Iranians there too.

8 years later they were trying to avoid losing Basra. It seems that the Iranians, unlike the Iraqis, were actually rather motivated about keeping foreigners out of their country. Now of course our vastly superior equipment will demolish their stuff, but I wonder if our military is really ready to take serious losses. They haven't done so in a very long time.

[kineneb]

151. yup, and notice the choke point on the maps

the Straits of Hormuz... even if the US takes control of the oil fields, it does no good if the oil tankers are unable to get to them... all Iran would have to do is sink several ships in the Strait to block through traffic...and those mountains- no trees, just stark rock, really rugged...

If BushCo goes up against Iran, they will reget it. As a former citizen of Iran (I did have an Iranian passport at one time), I would hate to see that ancient and starkly beautiful country devestated by BushCo's incompetence. Ok, I admit Iran's government sucks, and most of the people there agree, but it is not our business to change it. At this point, their electoral system is probably less corrupt than ours.

[george_hurley]

88. SIGN MY PETION: NO WAR W/ IRAN

In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues we are dealing w/ right now and we may be 1 month away from something that may change all of our lives for ever:

My Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/n0war1rn/


And a list of reading material regarding this issue:
http://reseaudesign.com/research/iran/iran_summery.html

Thanks very much.

[Vidar]

95. Go ahead, bush, piss off the Russians. Worked so well for Hitler.

[AlamoDemoc]

96. I think Washington should prepare how to deal with

Iran as nuclear power in the region. Frankly, I think Iran has already passed the "Red Line" as nuclear "know-how" nation, and they will eventually build nuclear weapon regardless of attack from the US.

[rfkrfk]

117. simple solution to this, use Russian planes

launch Russian planes from a carrier.
put a corpse in the cockpit, in case one crashes
ditch em somewhere

Iran will not get in a war with Russia

[tatertop]

128. We have abslolutely no mandate to attack them in the first place

What a silly idea.

[lxwen85]

122. US should police itself first

The US is becoming a real world police. But if it wants the acceptance of its policing, it must police itself first, and gain the moral grouds for policing others.

[spanone]

123. Great, that could keep bush* as dictator for many, many years.

[cliss]

126. There are some serious problems which have

not been brought up yet. The U.S. is acting like a rogue right now: we've become like Riverboat Gamblers, we've got the mortgage money and we're at the craps table, hoping to "make up for losses".

Everything we've done smacks of desperation. Why would we do that, unless we are really desperate. Here are some ugly facts:

1) The US only represents about 3.8% of the world's population. There are not enough of us to control the other 96%.

2) We're broke. This would explain the "riverboat gambler" mentality. We are overextended financially. Our economy is unstable. It's basically a house of cards.

3) We're vulnerable in 3 major areas: a) the Petrodollar which is being threatened by Iran. b) our economy which is nothing more than a hollowed-out shell, sustained by nothing except an inflated real estate market. c) our trade deficit which is growing every year.

4) I believe Russia and China have taken a back-seat approach to our Conquest for Empire. They see that it's much more advantageous to just sit back and watch the US get stuck in the mud, in Iraq, Afghanistan, other places.

There is more than one way to win a war!!! They can just sit back and watch us go bankrupt. Then.......

[tatertop]

127. Still, Russia and China cannot sit by idly as we steal Iran's oil fields

They can only play the waiting game so long.
One way or another, they will have to stop
our endless preemptive war dead in its tracks.

While the Iranian Oil Bourse priced in Euros may be
our primary incentive to rape that country, the fact remains that
Russia and China must protect the oil as they must protect the region
against further US incursion. WWIII.

[cliss]

131. Yes, you're right T.

So now about this Iran Oil Bourse, I wonder if China and Russia are secretly endorsing it?

Rather than openly defy the U.S., maybe they are helping Iran with this project.

[tatertop]

142. Of course Russsia has been selling Iran Sunburn and Yokunt missiles

Sunburn and yokunt

[dubya_dubya_III]

136. Read Trading Places

the Imperial British American Christian Fascist empire is going the same way as the Imperial Soviet Worker Fascist Empire did. Krushchev was right when he said "we will bury you", just got the wrong nation (Imperial Chinese Worker Fascist Empire) when he predicted that Communal Socialism would bury us.

Just consider that the only productive industries that the Trans-National Corporate Fascists (Noble British Mercantile Monopolist Mafia) have not been able to export to China to increase their tax free Cayman Islands Profits are our military industrial arms manufacturing.

These wars are the phony debt supported 'economic growth' that seems to look sort of ok. Therefore the need for CIA Manufactured Wars is the only thing remaining that is propping up this economy.

[Norquist Nemesis]

130. And they've practiced War Games with China, too!

Bush better be listenin'.

[WinkyDink]

132. Sounds like a plan to me!

Think Dubya will be Raptured?

[wordpix]

134. not too "hard to predict how Muslim world will respond:" look at cartoon

response

[george_hurley]

147. ***SIGN MY PETITION: NO WAR WITH IRAN!****

Hello,

For the past year, the growing tensions mounting between the US, Israel, and Iran are reaching a point where military action against Iran is w/in months of becoming reality. The repercussions are terrifying as such military action could involve countries such as China and Russia as they share massive energy/economic interests w/ Iran. The most likely scenario we would face would be the collapse of the US economy as the combination of a massive rise in oil prices and a run on the US dollar would surely be the weapon many countries would use to fight back against a preemptive US or Israeli strike.

For a collection of articles and resources on this subject you can visit this link: http://reseaudesign.com/research/iran/iran_summery.html

I'm starting up a petition which I will be sending out to as many members of Congress as possible. I'm asking for help to get this signed by as many people, possible in the next month. Send it to as many people you can.

http://www.petitiononline.com/n0war1rn/


Thanks for your time

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

150. I believe Tony Blair prefers it shaken not stirred.

:+

[Clara T]

154. kick

Alexis de Tocqueville wisely observed, "I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America."