Lawyer: Guantanamo Prisoners Tortured

[Whoa_Nelly]

CANBERRA, Australia Oct. 8 — The U.S. military has tortured terrorist suspects held without charge at the Guantanamo Bay military prison, an Australian lawyer representing some of the suspects claimed Wednesday.

U.S.-based Richard Bourke, who has been working for almost two years on behalf of dozens of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, said American military officials were using old-fashioned torture techniques to force confessions out of prisoners.

The methods "clearly" fell under the definition of torture under international conventions, he told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio in an interview from the United States.

"They are engaging in good old-fashioned torture, as people would have understood it in the Dark Ages," he said.

more...
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8663&TagID=2

[arcane1]

1. and how will the sheeple respond to this outrage?

"baaaa"

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. The voting class will react positively. Torture is popular since 9-11

As long as it is Muslims who are being tortured.

Even those who have the capacity to understand that the people in Gitmo were for the most part sold to the bush regime for $50 a head by the ISI, and include children, elderly people, people with mental retardation, and almost exclusively people whose knowledge of the existence of New York is hazy if existent, they represent the "evildoers" to the voting class, and America has a long tradition of representative punishment.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

16. http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/6958312.htm AP story

nice try, though :)

[kayell]

2. What ever happened to the chaplin (Yee) and the others arrested

over alleged security violations at Gitmo? What did they know?

There just isn't enough tinfoil in the world to protect against the BFEE.

[Just Me]

8. Do you know

,...whether or not the collection of evidence by a member of the armed services showing human rights violations can constitute the types of charges against Yee et al i.e. espionage, refusal to obey a command, etc.?

[pinniped]

4. I remember reading an article many months ago...

The fearless pig leaders were considering torture.

This admin is truly disgusting, but we already knew that.

[kayell]

6. There is a lot out there, too much to ignore

This from way back in December 2002 from the WP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A37943-2002Dec25¬Found=true

While the U.S. government publicly denounces the use of torture, each of the current national security officials interviewed for this article defended the use of violence against captives as just and necessary. They expressed confidence that the American public would back their view. The CIA, which has primary responsibility for interrogations, declined to comment.

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."

The off-limits patch of ground at Bagram is one of a number of secret detention centers overseas where U.S. due process does not apply, according to several U.S. and European national security officials, where the CIA undertakes or manages the interrogation of suspected terrorists. Another is Diego Garcia, a somewhat horseshoe-shaped island in the Indian Ocean that the United States leases from Britain.

snip

In other cases, usually involving lower-level captives, the CIA hands them to foreign intelligence services -- notably those of Jordan, Egypt and Morocco -- with a list of questions the agency wants answered. These "extraordinary renditions" are done without resort to legal process and usually involve countries with security services known for using brutal means.

more

Added: this disturbing news about our fellow 'murkins.
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1109-02.htm

from 2001, but you can rest assured that the hard core wingers still hold this view.

Most alarming of all, a recent CNN poll has revealed that 45 percent of Americans would not object to torturing someone if it would provide information about terrorism. Callers to radio programs say that we don't always have the "luxury of following all the rules"; that given recent events, people are "more understanding" of the necessity for a little behind-the-scenes roughing up. The unanimity of international conventions against torture notwithstanding, one hears authoritative voices--for example, Robert Litt, a former Justice Department official--arguing that while torture should not be "authorized," perhaps it could be used in an "emergency," as long as the person who tortures then presents himself to "take the consequences." The free enterprise version of torture, I guess we'd have to call it.

[lumpy]

10. I also recall talk of the validity

of using 'subtle' types of torture.

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. They have seized at least one guys kids, 7 and 9, and in Iraq

they seize the wives and daughters.

Apparently some in Washington are of the opinion that in the case of individuals who may be impervious to "interrogation" when applied to themselves, "interrogating" family members may be more effective.
=================================

"Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54345-2003Jul27.html

[Say_What]

25. Sounds like Latin America all over again. Torture the kids and wives

for the info...

[54anickel]

5. Will there actually be an end to the war on terra?

They are to be tried by secret military tribunals. The U.S. government says they could be held until it declares an end to its "war on terrorism."

[bleedingheart]

7. How can they ever release them after this type of treatment and

not have them retaliate against the US?

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. It is not likely that the victims themselves will be able to retaliate

It is true that while the torture is applauded by most of the affluent American voting class, the rest of the world is less enthusiastic.

The regime has made arrangements for protection of personnel judged essential, and I think that we can be confident that they have done all the number work to ensure that retaliatory attacks will not impede the achievement of US military and financial objectives in various parts of the world.

edit to note that in any event, there are no plans to release them. Those who survive the torture, the regime has decreed, will be sentenced to death and executed.

[Name removed]

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. The Bushies admitted some time ago that 70% of the people...

...being held are NOT terrorists. Why haven't they been released?

Is it because the Bushies are afraid of what might be said in public when nobody is around to apply the cattle prod? How many of the innocent ones will take one-way helicopter rides over the Gulf of Mexico so that NOBODY will ever talk?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Good point. No real American Christian would check the AP story

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/6958312.htm


edit to note to my fellow Enemies of the State who may be unaware, Khilafah echoes stories from other sources all over the world.

Khilafah itself produces very little original content other than editorials sometimes.

This particular story is credited to ABC, and a google will show that it originated from the notorious Islamic terrorist gang Associated Press.

[Name removed]

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[htuttle]

18. "Who are you going to believe?"

"Me or your lying eyes?"

:eyes:

[hang a left]

20. Who do you believe, *Bush or your lying eyes?

[Name removed]

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[Pastiche423]

24. lol!

Who the fuck do you think the U.S. officials are?

Please tell me you are either being sarcadtic or just plain naive.

[Name removed]

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[DuctapeFatwa]

39. So you would want American troops treated as those at Gitmo?

That is fair. The US is currently occupying two nations, with over a hundred thousand troops in harm's way.

If a foreign power should deem them terrorists and seize them, and accord them the exact same treatment the US accords foreign nationals it has seized, it would be difficult to argue that it is indeed the US who sets the standards for the whole world in the matter of human rights, don't you agree?

[nolabels]

66. Automobiles are good cars till they run over people

When you’re in the military they run through not accepting a unlawful order many times, but some still ignore it, then others get reassigned, then still others say they didn't know any better. Not saying anyone in particular is guilty of anything. Just thought you might want to check out a couple threads before going too far off the deep end.

http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm

The Milgram Experiment
A lesson in depravity, peer pressure, and the power of authority
The aftermath of the Holocaust and the events leading up to World War II, the world was stunned with the happenings in Nazi German and their acquired surrounding territories that came out during the Eichmann Trials. Eichmann, a high ranking official of the Nazi Party, was on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The questions is, "Could it be that Eichmann, and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"

Stanley Milgram answered the call to this problem by performing a series of studies on the Obedience to Authority. Milgram's work began at Harvard where he was working towards his Ph.D. The experiments on which his initial research was based were done at Yale from 1961-1962.

In response to a newspaper ad offering $4.50 for one hour's work, an individual turns up to take part in a Psychology experiment investigating memory and learning. He is introduced to a stern looking experimenter in a white coat and a rather pleasant and friendly co-subject. The experimenter explains that the experiment will look into the role of punishment in learning, and that one will be the "teacher" and one will be the "learner." Lots are drawn to determine roles, and it is decided that the individual who answered the ad will become the "teacher."
(snip)

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9363/history.htm

REAL TORTURE
Torture History and Political Torture
Explore torture on the Web. This is NOT a complete listing of topics, only links to websites.
Links to torture history, mostly covering old torture equipment, the Inquisition, and witch hunting.
Visit torture exhibits in museums around the world; see old art Illuminations in France.

Links to modern day political torture categorized by country or groups. Includes human rights groups combating political torture.
(snip)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. You're either terribly naive or...

...you have some other agenda here at DU.

With all of the lies told by the Bushies, to include every major department involved in the Afghan and Iraqi conflicts, you want to tell us that you're going to side with the "US" on this issue? Maybe you can tell us who the U.S. is these days.

While I firmly believe that the vast majority of American troops in Irag and Afghanistan are just good people that are trying to do their jobs and go home, there are those people in the military that are real sickos. Those are the people chosen and specifically trained to do the so-called "wet work". Outside of the military these people would probably be serial killers without an ounce of human compassion. Those are the people that are more than eager to be asked to what is being done at Gitmo. I met a few of those people while I was in the service back in the mid-1970s-early 1980s, and I did my best to steer clear of them.

Let me also point out as an example that Vietnam also brought out the best in some American troops, but also brought out the very worst in others. Operation Phoenix was a CIA-run operation using American troops that resulted in the deaths of 40,000 to 60,000 South Vietnamese men, women, and children. Other operations resulted in the whole-scale slaughter of entire villages, My Lai among them.

[Trek234]

70. So what about the pictures that have been released?

Are those just part of the Aussie conspiracy too?

[DuctapeFatwa]

26. What happened to your mission to discredit Khilafah?

You seem confused.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

41. So you disagree with Khilafah that the honor killings were wrong?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

I am also opposed to honor killings.


What their editorial has to do with which wire stories they echo in their news section, I am not sure.

[Name removed]

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[hang a left]

47. What does that have to do with an editorial that is taking a

stance against it. I guess just bringing honor killings to everyones attention is what angers you.

[Name removed]

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[DuctapeFatwa]

50. How is saying the killings were wrong "espousing" them?

Perhaps we define the word "espouse" differently?

I'm still not sure how your scorn for a religion has anything to do with the Associated Press.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[hang a left]

57. You know something, I think I might recognize you from somewhere? You

wouldn't happen to be a divorced father who raised his son alone would you? Your writing style is similar to that chap.

[Name removed]

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. Your thoughts are "pure", but...

..."pure what" is really the question, isn't it?

[DuctapeFatwa]

58. I think honor killings are 1 of those things your're either for or against

regardless of whether you agree or disagree with a particular cultural or religious practice.

Personally, I am against them, you apparently have a different opinion, and you are not alone.

They are very popular, and not only in the Middle East.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

62. So you changed your mind? Now you AGREE with Khilafah?

Everyone has the right to change their mind.

And a change from pro- to anti-honor killing is a positive change in my book :)

[Occulus]

71. "it" and "traditions"?

:shrug:

[Say_What]

38. Human Rights Watch: US: Stop Handing Over Detainees to Torturers

<clips>

(Washington, D.C., November 7, 2003) - President George W. Bush should end the transfer of detainees to countries that routinely engage in torture, such as Syria, if he is to fulfill his pledge to champion democracy and human rights in the Middle East and honor the United States' international legal obligations, Human Rights Watch said today.

In a November 6 speech to the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington, President Bush condemned the government of Syria, along with Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, for leaving its people "a legacy of torture, oppression, misery, and ruin." According to the U.S. State Department's annual human rights reports, Syria torture methods include beatings, administering electric shocks, pulling out of fingernails, forcing objects into the rectum, and bending detainees into the frame of a wheel and whipping their exposed body parts.

Yet last year, the United States reportedly transferred Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen, to Syria after having detained him in New York as he was en route from Tunisia to Montreal. On November 4 in Ottawa, Arar publicly asserted that, while held in Syrian prisons for 10 months, he was repeatedly tortured by being whipped with a thick electric cable and threatened with electric shocks.

Since September 11, 2001, the Bush administration has reportedly facilitated or participated directly in the transfer of numerous persons without extradition proceedings, a practice known as "irregular rendition," to countries in the Middle East known to practice torture routinely.

"Denouncing torture in Syria, and then handing over prisoners to Syrian torturers sends the ultimate mixed message," said Tom Malinowski, Washington Advocacy Director of Human Rights Watch. "The Bush Administration cannot effectively promote change in the Middle East and elsewhere unless the United States is seen as a credible and consistent champion of human rights."

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/11/syria110703.htm

[Say_What]

43. Human Rights Watch: U.S.: Guantanamo Kids at Risk

<clips>

(New York, April 24, 2003) The detention of children at Guantanamo poses grave risks to their well-being, Human Rights Watch said today, in response to the U.S. military's acknowledgement that at least three children, ages 13 to 15, are among the detainees at Guantanamo. In a letter sent today to U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Human Rights Watch urged the United States to strictly observe international children's rights standards regarding the detainees.


"Secretary Rumsfeld called those detained at Guantanamo the 'worst of the worst,'" said Jo Becker, child rights advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "It's hard to believe that a 13 year old could fit that category."

A Pentagon spokesperson has said that the children are being questioned to obtain possible intelligence.

"Simply providing the United States with military intelligence does not justify the detention of children," said Becker. "If these children have committed offenses, they should be provided with counsel and adjudicated in accordance with standards of juvenile justice. Otherwise, they should be released immediately."

The conditions at Guantanamo pose particularly serious risks to children. Child detainees should never be held together with adults, but because there are so few children, they are held for long periods in virtual isolation. They have no access to lawyers, limited or no access to their families, and are subject to interrogation.

Human Rights Watch raised a particular concern that isolated conditions are especially conducive to suicidal behavior. Studies have shown that children held in adult jails, where they are more likely to be held in separate, secure housing and spend substantial periods of time in isolation, are up to eight times more likely to commit suicide than those held in facilities specifically for juveniles.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/us042403.htm

[Pastiche423]

21. Which "US"?

The "US" government that imprisoned them and have kept them imprisoned w/o charges, w/o counsel and w/o any communications w/their loved ones? AND WITHOUT EVIDENCE?

That "US"?

[Name removed]

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[Pastiche423]

49. Who told the people on duty

to guard the detainees and why? They have to be following someone's orders.

Maybe you can answer this for me. Why are the detainees being held? What have they done that made the people on duty guard them? Why can't they either be charged w/a crime or let go?

When did the United States of America decide that "people remain innocent until proven guilty" is no longer the law of our land?

YOU do not know who is at Gitmo or why they are there. YOU do not know if they are guilty of a crime or not.

Btw, this is a Democratic board.

[Name removed]

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[Pastiche423]

54. How do you know they were caught red handed?

What were they caught red handed doing?

Why haven't been told what they were doing red handed?

I agree, there are some bad people out there. Our White House is full of them.

How are we being kept safe? Who is keeping us safe? The federal budget cuts have laid off thousands upon thousands of EMTs, police and firemen in every municipality in our country.

Where in hell did you get that I thought whistle ass was running the show? lol

[Name removed]

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[Pastiche423]

63. You weren't using "if" above

when you said, "Once someone has chosen to terrorize innocents then why would it matter what their fate is as long as they are not free to kill innocents?"

Do you believe the U.S. is right in detaining these people w/o charging them w/a crime?

And/or do you believe the people that are being detained at Gitmo to be terrorists, therefore should be detained?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[Pastiche423]

67. I am playing no game

The government of the country of my birth has held over 600 human beingsfor more than two years w/o any fucking charges and by their own admission has tortured some of them.

Then you come here saying you don't believe the attorney because he is from downunder, yet you believe and trust the US WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE!

Who's playing games?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Maybe you should quit playing them.

[Occulus]

72. funny

I always thought democracy was about the people being in control via their elected reps. I also always thought we would obey international law. Apparently, I was wrong.

Oh, to answer your 'gotta trust the government' stance, well... Tuskeegee. Go Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about. Put it with the word experiment and see what you find.

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. So if you side w/ the US, you should have no problem w/ torturing Muslims

After all, these are evildoers who hate freedom we're talking about here, did not bush himself decree that they are "bad people?"

So what if the US tortures them?

The regime has decreed that it will do what it chooses to whom, and when.

You are with them, or you are with the terrorists?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

29. If you don't mind a suggestion

This board tends to have an awful lot of readers.

You might have better luck with the Khilafah riff (as well as the "Aussie agenda") on one where there are fewer news junkies.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[DuctapeFatwa]

61. Not too many people here see the safety of US troops as a straw man

The US is currently occupying 2 countries, with over 100 thousand troops deployed in harm's way and subject to capture.

Not everyone is as comfortable as you seem to be with the notion of Americans being treated as are the people in Guantanamo.

And since you came in going on about the credibility of Khilafah, either not noticing yourself, or assuming that no one here would notice that the story was not even from Khilafah, but AP, I think you will have a hard time making a credible argument on anything relating to this subject.

[Don Claybrook]

68. Here Lies a Defender of Brutality

She Defended Poorly.

[hang a left]

31. What evidence do you have that there hasn't been any torture of

the prisoners? Oh.......I see, the government told you so. You have invested in what the government of US tells you?

[PsychoDad]

30. Based on the history of the US...

And it's adherance to truth when it comes to war, you would be a fool to unquestionally follow the Bush regime or pentagon line.

The government lies, has been lying to it's citizens.
The Pentagon lies.
Bush Lies.
The US media echos these lies.....

While Americans die, They continue to lie.

Or are you unaware of the lies?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Again, you're either really incredibly naive, or...

...you have another agenda entirely. Which is it?

How far back in American history would you like to go to continue trusting the American foot soldier "to do the right thing for America"?

Did you know that the American Revolutionary War was a pretty brutal affair, with troops on both sides participating in the killing of the wounded?

Do you want to talk about what took place in the POW camps on both sides during the American Civil War?

How would you like to discuss what U.S. troops did to the Indians living on the plains following the Civil War? Ever hear of Wounded Knee?

How about some of the actions that took place during the Philippine Rebellion?

How about the German POWs that were executed in the field during the Battle of the Bulge in retaliation for executions of American troops?

How about the massacre of Korean civilians during the Korean War?

How about the killing of Vietnamese civilians during the Vietnam War? Ever hear of My Lai?

Now, don't get me wrong...I know that American troops, and civilians to a certain extent, have also been the victims of foul play. But to pretend that Americans don't participate in the very same acts we claim are wrong is simply ludicrous.

So, what's that you're saying about what's going on at Gitmo? Oh, yeah...that's right. You want to trust American soldiers to do what's right for America, and scoff at the claims of a lawyer...claims that have been repeated many times over the last couple of years.

[Say_What]

32. SmirkBoy: "We don't torture people in America"

<clips>

In Australia on 18 October, asked in a television interview whether two Australian nationals held in US custody in Guantánamo Bay were being tortured, President George Bush offered a categorical denial: "No, of course. We don't torture people in America. And people who make that claim just don't know anything about our country".(1)

On the same day, it was revealed that eight US soldiers had been charged with acts of brutality against prisoners of war in Iraq.(2) One of the prisoners had died.

President Bush's denial echoed an earlier statement by a military spokesman at the US Air Base in Bagram, Afghanistan. There have been persistent allegations of ill-treatment and torture of detainees held in Bagram, subjected to so-called "stress and duress" techniques including blindfolding, prolonged forced kneeling, sleep deprivation, and cruel use of shackles.(3) Asked about one such case, the spokesman, Colonel Rodney Davis, replied: "I don't know the specific case you're referencing but I think you would have to agree, America, and for the most part the other countries involved in this coalition, don't have a reputation for treating individuals in an inhumane way. It's not part of our culture."(4)

Such responses smack of complacency. After all, the USA is a country where some 3,600 people, including scores of juvenile offenders and mentally ill inmates, await execution, and tens of thousands of others are held in "super-maximum" security facilities in conditions – solitary confinement and reduced sensory stimulation – which the United Nations Committee against Torture, has referred to as "excessively harsh".(5)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511282003?open&of=ENG-USA

[joeunderdog]

42. Yeah, Saddam didn't torture people "in America" either.

He is called "the most dangerous man in the world" by a worldwide vote.
He follows no guidance from the UN and rejects the Geneva Convention's rules of conduct.
He strips his own citizens of basic human rights for which the USA has set the standard for hundreds of years.
He lies at every level to forward his personal and political agenda.
He has people tortured who offer resistence.
He collects weapons of mass destruction to one day rule the world.
He kicked out the UN weapons inspectors and won't let them back into Iraq.
Thousands of innocent men, women and children have died despite bieng peace-loving and defenseless.

Saddam or G E O R G E W. B U S H?

[Say_What]

45. SmirkBoy of course...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

65. He told the truth. We don't torture people in America. We take them

to Cuba and torture them.

This isn't entirely true. The behaviours of many lacal jail systems could be called down many times over as using torture.

[htuttle]

15. Saints preserve us!

OMG! They're Muzlums!

Did you read the story? It's from Associated Press.

[0007]

28. Perhaps help is right around the corner?

Justices to Hear Case of Detainees at Guantánamo -

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/11/politics/11SCOT.html?ex=1069131600&en=0721ab33e94ebaf8&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

A good read, and who know?

[PsychoDad]

33. May I predict the outcome?

5 to 4 AGAINST the constitution. Again.

I pray I am wrong.


Salaams and Ramadan Mubarak to all

[0007]

37. I hope so too!

I'm listening to Tony Blair on c-span right and getting sicker by the second. Blair is so wrong!!

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. The court who appointed bush will rule on whom he can kidnap & torture?

I'm not sure that will be a lot of "help" for the victims, either the current kidnapees or ordinary Americans in whose name the debt is made.

[UpInArms]

52. there are already two

who have died under questionable interrogation tactics

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/international/asia/04AFGH.html?ex=1068613200&en=29a1e31cc25ad3e4&ei=5070

March 4, 2003

YAKUBI, Afghanistan — The United States military has begun a criminal investigation into the death of an Afghan man in American custody in December, a death described as a "homicide" by an American pathologist.

A death certificate, dated Dec. 13 and signed by Maj. Elizabeth A. Rouse, a pathologist with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, based in Washington, says the man died as a result of "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease."

The Afghan, known by the single name Dilawar, a 22-year-old farmer and part-time taxi driver from this village in eastern Afghanistan, died in December while being held in the main United States air base at Bagram, north of Kabul.

Details of his death have not been made public by the United States Army, which said simply that Mr. Dilawar had coronary artery disease and had died of a heart attack. He was found collapsed in cell on Dec. 10, shortly after being detained near the perimeter of an American Army base in southeast Afghanistan.

...more...

and I can't find a direct link to the other one, but here is an interesting summary

http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/123002_new_account_of_us_torture_of_afg.htm

The two Post reporters, Dana Priest and Barton Gellman, interviewed a dozen former and current US national security officials, including several who had witnessed the handling of prisoners, and who defended the use of violence in interrogation as “just and necessary.” The CIA declined any official comment on the subject, but the head of the CIA Counterrorist Center, Cofer Black, told a September 26 joint session of the House and Senate intelligence committees that in dealing with suspected terrorists “after 9/11 the gloves come off.”

Some comments cited by the Post show the gangster mentality which now predominates in official Washington. One official said, “If you don’t violate someone’s human rights some of the time, you probably aren’t doing your job... I don’t think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA.” Another told the reporters, “our guys may kick them around a little bit,” while a third, referring to providing medical treatment to wounded prisoners, said, “pain control is a very subjective thing.”

Afghan and alleged Al Qaeda prisoners are held not only at Bagram, but at US facilities on Diego Garcia, a British-controlled island in the Indian Ocean, and at other undisclosed locations. While considerable publicity has been given to the presence of 625 prisoners at a US-run prison at Guantanamo Bay naval base in Cuba, this represents only a fraction of the 3,000 people seized worldwide since September 11, 2001. According to the Post, fewer than 100 of these have been “rendered” to third countries, leaving well over 2,000 prisoners unaccounted for—either still held in secret US-controlled or third-country prisons, or killed outright by their captors.

Only one prisoner was named as a torture victim in the Post account—Abu Zubaida, a leading member of Al Qaeda, who was shot during his apprehension in Pakistan last March, then denied medical treatment as a means of forcing his cooperation. “National security officials suggested that Zubaida’s painkillers were used selectively in the beginning of his captivity. He is now said to be cooperating,” the newspaper reported.

Another prisoner, Mohammed Haydar Zammar, who holds joint German and Syrian citizenship, was “rendered” to Syria, where he is believed to have been tortured. German officials strongly protested Zammar’s transfer to Syrian custody, asking that he be returned to Germany for questioning about possible links to the September 11 suicide hijackings. Syria has provided information from his interrogation to the US government.

[whirlygigspin]

77. Let's just be extra nice to the facists

and maybe they will be inspired by our goodness to stop
torturing people without just cause or legal process.

Please? can't we just try to be nice to them?

Let's no start crying in our teacups now about a little
torture here and there, let's just get along, huh?

C'mon, let's party! :party:

There! don't you feel better?

party! party! party! weeeeeeee! :party:

stop being so negative, c'mon

let's all have a group hug!

forget about those torture thingies...Gimme a K! Gimme an E...
Gimme a C...Gimee an L...Gimme an A...