Houston eyes cameras at apartment complexes (and private homes)

[Sgent]

Seattle Pi

HOUSTON -- Houston's police chief on Wednesday proposed placing surveillance cameras in apartment complexes, downtown streets, shopping malls and even private homes to fight crime during a shortage of police officers.

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" Chief Harold Hurtt told reporters Wednesday at a regular briefing.

Houston is facing a severe police shortage because of too many retirements and too few recruits, and the city has absorbed 150,000 hurricane evacuees who are filling apartment complexes in crime-ridden neighborhoods. The City Council is considering a public safety tax to pay for more officers.

Building permits should require malls and large apartment complexes to install surveillance cameras, Hurtt said. And if a homeowner requires repeated police response, it is reasonable to require camera surveillance of the property, he said.

Edited to add: Not clear from the part snipped above, but this refers to Houston, TX.

[Occulus]

1. Someone in that town should rent a video camera.

Find out where this particular unenlightened soul and his family lives, and tape away- in full view.

Then just... see what happens next.

[Kierkegaard]

5. Right.

THEN we'll see if he still holds to that 'If you're not doing anything wrong...' mantra.

[midnight]

22. great idea

I could not think of a more appropriate way to show those folks.

[windy252]

33. Didn't someone say

they did something similar to a co-worker who was arguing surveillance good and he changed his position?

[Habibi]

57. Yes

Don't remember the thread but it was recent. The DUer found public information about the fellow's property, including what his downpayment was and his taxes, and posted the info in the forum they were debating in. The pro-surveillance guy changed his tune pretty quick!

Btw, welcome to DU! :hi:

[Sgent]

2. I would hardly call

Houston, Tx a town

[babylonsister]

3. I live in Houston suburbs. Does anyone honestly think, after dimson's

cuts for cops, that there's anything to this?
And coming from SeattlePI?
I reckon you will have to pick us up either after the heat waves or the
hurricanes in summer/fall '06 in TX.

[Skittles]

4. if you're not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it

simple, conservative, ignorant thinking

[Toots]

17. Which truly amazes me coming from Conservatives who are constantly

getting caught doing wrong.....,

[S_B_Jackson]

19. This isn't coming from the neocons, its coming from our own....

The administration is that of Bill White a former member of the Big Dog's administration...and comes on the heels of the city's decision to install red light cameras at traffic intersections.

Hurt is the former Chief of the Portland, OR police...and is rather progressive.

The problem is that Houston already has a small police force - only 2.2 per 1000 residents - and we're looking at the loss of almost 50% of the force due to retirement in the next 5 years...and its not much help if you realize that our party has controlled the Mayoral seat for the last 16 years...White replaced, Lee P. Brown who carried water for his predecessor, "Mayor Bob" Lanier.

Personally, I have a philosophical problem with the "Law Enforcement by automoton" mentality. Considering how often the city's traffic lights get seriously out of synch, I don't trust the city to "get it right" and I can foresee a big problem with erroneous tickets being issued - mostly for perfectly legal "right on red" & "left on red" turns...and they will be impossible to fight in court. Low & middle income families - AS ALWAYS - will be the hardest hit.

As a Houstonian, I'd like to see the city bite the bullet, add an annual $100 dollars to the city "Sales and Use Tax Permit", as well as impose a $10/month per unit fee to all apartment units leased within city limits both revenue streams specifically earmarked for emergency services - 50% to police/50% to Fire - and hire, train, and equip the necessary personnel to meet our city's needs.

[Skittles]

36. in general this is conserative thinking

if anyone protects our civil libeties, or at least TRIES, it is Democrats

[Spiffarino]

43. If it's Dems doing it, then they suck at being Dems

...and need to be smacked down. Any government official that even suggests we place cameras everywhere to spy on our citizens deserves to be replaced.

I'm sick to death of this shit. If I hear another idiot say I have nothing to worry about, I'll cockpunch him.

[JDPriestly]

67. Who is defining "doing something wrong"?

The Patriot Act defines a terrorist act as doing something wrong. But how does the Patriot Act define a terrorist act? Is painting public walls with slogans a terrorist act under the Patriot Act? Does it depend on who is doing the painting? Does it depend on why the person is painting? Is it a terrorist act to advocate impeachment of the president in time of war? Some might think so. Does Green Peace commit terrorist acts? What is a terrorist act? I might define it quite differently than another person.

A criminal law that does not provide enough information to people to allow them to avoid performing the acts it makes illegal is too ambiguous and broad to be enforceable. Is the Patriot Act precise enough in its definition of a terrorist act to allow an average citizen to avoid conduct that brings him or her within the purview of the Act? I would submit that it does not and, that, therefore any the Patriot Act is unenforceable and the surveillance and arrests being done pursuant to that Act are unconstitutional. I'm not using the right legalese, but a criminal attorney may be able to correct my sloppy wording. Any comments?

[Brothaman2k]

69. Gee, I know the Nazis are coming for the Jews, but...

I'm not a jew, so what's the problem?

You called this guy's thought process dead on my friend. Some people seriously need to read a history book before they ask stupid questions.

[Rex]

6. 1984 here we come!

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" Chief Harold Hurtt told reporters Wednesday at a regular briefing.

Fuck you, you fascist pig. Hey I got an idea, chief, how bout next time you and your wife fuck we all get a peeks-see with a camcorder? No? Then fuck off.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. They should just post "Big Brother Is Watching You" & get it over with.

[saigon68]

21. I agree Fuck Him

What an ass-clown

[cboy4]

42. Hmmm, lets see. I, for one, will pass on the peeks-see

even if he does tape it. But I get your point. ;)

[juliana24]

45. They should have voicecorders and camera's in every patrol car and

all police stations, including the Sheiff's office and the Police Chiefs' office.

After all, if they have nothing to hide........

This is how Fascism starts, folks.

Just say "NO" when any police officer makes this remark.

[DemonFighterLives]

59. What you said just struck me

You are entirely right. Let's check on the lawmakers and enforcers first. If the politicos and gestapho pass the test, then we'll think about it. I vote for w and Rove to go first and gfy cheney and rummy. I'm sure they have nothing to hide.
:argh:

[GinaMaria]

63. If I'm not doing anything wrong, why should my privacy be violated?

[pinniped]

7. Do they have this sign plastered in the meeting rooms of police....

stations all over the US?

--if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?--

I think it's a good idea. We wouldn't want the UK cornering the market on all that surveillance equipment.

[MadisonProgressive]

35. We could replace the entire Constitution with that line

Opps! I hope * doesn't read DU.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. That is his problem

he doesn't read anything (unless it is My Pet Goat)

[MadisonProgressive]

56. Nah, the kids were reading - he just looked at the pictures

[juliana24]

47. The sign says" When you get caught (name the crime) stay silent".

This is what all police do when they get caught breaking the very laws they are supposed to enforce.

[HuffleClaw]

8. "I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother...

... but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?"

what a load of complete nonsense, but typical right wing rhetoric. no suprise of course, that this is in TEXAS.

[txindy]

30. Absolutely. Texas.

Texas, a state where Junior's approval rating stands at 49%, NOT the majority opinion. :eyes: But thanks for that broad brushstroke.

[Texacrat]

74. Since when did you have an expectation of privacy on a public street?

This isn't a right vs. left wing issue at all. In fact, camera use is extremely prevalent in England and Europe in the public areas.

[truthisfreedom]

9. we all need video cameras installed in our cars, which transmit to the net

so no cops can do anything that isn't recorded.

[juliana24]

50. The cops would just confiscate it, but a great idea nonetheless.

[Judi Lynn]

10. Why doesn't someone suggest banning curtains from our homes?

It would save the huge cash outlay getting cameras, and we could pass the savings on to more tax cuts for the wealthy.

What are we doing in there that needs so much secrecy, anyway? What are we trying to hide?

[sattahipdeep]

29. Eating candy?

"My father just didn’t want to believe something like
that genocide of the Jews was possible it’s very
understandable. He just couldn’t believe the humanistic
Germans he knew would do such a thing."

http://www.pbs.org/daringtoresist/barbara.html

"Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes
out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a
million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can
sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." Robert F. Kennedy

:hi:

[juliana24]

49. Dont forget to use postcards, not letters. Why are you trying to hide?

Frakking houston fascist idiots !!

[kurth]

11. How about a remote keystroke logger

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?"

Fucking moron.

[file83]

54. I'd like to put cameras in this man's bedroom to see if he truly believes

his own retarded logic. Afterall, if he isn't doing anything wrong, why should he worry about it?

I agree with you 100% this man is a moron.

[Karenina]

12. And WHO decides

right and wrong? :shrug:

[silverweb]

15. THAT is the question!

In their world, the party in power (theirs) decides what is right or wrong. And if your every move is watched and recorded by party members, your every move is judged.

[awoke_in_2003]

40. The church,

of course. :sarcasm:

[Zhade]

13. I can't believe I'm the first vote on this one.

K/R, people!

[ronatchig]

16. The chief and his force

should be required to have a camera and mic. on their person,at all times, since these pantheons of civic virtue aren't doing anything wrong.

[BiggJawn]

18. Hurtt is a drooling idiot.

"...f you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?"

Somebody SHOULD follow him around with a camera. Bet that'd last about 10 minutes.

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. I'm so sick of this crap.

"If you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" And just who gets to decide what wrong is and why should we trust them, when they want to spy on us just because they think can? :argh:

[file83]

55. These bastards will NEVER give up this argument. The Globalists

won't allow them to.

[area51]

23. k & r (n/t)

[ronnie624]

24. Can there be any doubt

about where civil society is heading in the USA?

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" Chief Harold Hurtt told reporters Wednesday at a regular briefing.

How does this idiotic meme continue to pop up well into the twenty-first century? (rhetorical questions, of course)

[rexcat]

25. The Houston's police chief is a complete fuck!

People like him should be found guilty of treason and then taken care of in the manner traitors are dealt with while this nation is at "war."

[dmr]

26. This is dangerous

Once they start doing something like this, it won't stop. There will be all kinds of reasons to become more invasive.

The best alternative is to find a way to hire and train good police officers.

[Gregorian]

27. This is the kind of stuff that will create more violence in our society.

They just don't get it-

If you talk about drugs, more kids will find out about them.
If you spy on people, they will sneak up on you with a pipe wrench and clobber you when you least expect it.
When you spend taxes on bombs instead of providing the country with health care, you don't just end up with unhealthy people who work less, but you end up with more crime and violence.

Basically, when you mistreat people, you get the worst from them.

Oh, I know this is all supposed to be for the good. They're trackin' down the criminals with their cameras. It's just like the drug war- they were supposedly trying to crack down on drugs. Bullshit. All of these Republican-like programs are total failures. Just like them.

You see, the problem is Republicans think that respect comes in a can. You just add water. Poof, democracy. Poof, elimination of crime. Republicans come from the mentality that you can punish respect into people. Nothing could be more wrong.

[awoke_in_2003]

41. Sums up american society

treat the symptoms, not the cure. Lock up criminals, don't find out WHY they are criminals. Blow the holy hell out of "terrorists", don't find out why they attacked us. Hopefully, one day, this country will grow up, but probably won't happen in my lifetime.

[DemonFighterLives]

60. All the while the good repukes can commit crimes on top of crimes

and still walk free. See cheney commit treason and then shoot his buddy in the face. If only we had a camera on dickster.

[Iowa]

28. I have a way of dealing with guys like this...

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?"

Anyone who would willingly submit to round-the-clock surveillance (because they have nothing to hide) is probably a nerd who is living a pathetic, drab, meaningless life.

The solution: Losers like this asshole should be dragged out into the public square, given a 5 minute dutch-rub to be followed by a super-atomic wedgie. Next they should be "de-pantsed" and made to run home to their mommies in their jockey shorts, while the rest of us point, laugh, and run their pants up a flagpole. F**king losers!

[OKthatsIT]

31. Don't you know? Surveilliance is the new industrial complex

It's a racket..just like the military and prison industries.

[WinkyDink]

48. True enough. Not a MSM story yet, though.

The other aspect is that private citizens are planting hidden cameras every which where. I'm leery of hotel rooms, e.g.

[rainbow4321]

71. "DriveCam" is in our TX city's garbage trucks, utility vehicles, etc....

Monitors city worker's driving habits..reportedly to cut down on the lawsuits the city has gotten from accidents involving city vehicles.
But apparently it also involves audio cuz if you click on the video snippits given with the below article,you hear the radio playing and employees talking as they drive around the city. Doesn't leave much room for bitching about one's boss/job knowing that everything you say is being recorded and transmitted back to the office!!


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/collin/stories/DN-carcams_17cco.ART0.North.Edition2.1da8a3dd.html


Since beginning a test run with San Diego-based DriveCam in late 2002, Plano has added the windshield cameras to 256 city vehicles ranging from squad cars to garbage trucks. Plans are in the works to add 100 more this summer.

Risk-management officials say the DriveCams, which cost about $1,000 each, are starting to pay for themselves in Plano, the largest city in Texas – and the only one in the Dallas area – to use them extensive.

"Most of it's kind of the proverbial Big Brother fear," said Tim Billingham, a city loss control specialist. "They know that there's a camera in there watching, so if they're in an accident, we're going to see what happened and who was really at fault. So they're driving a little bit more cautious."

Mr. Billingham's computer has become a video library of driving behavior, with clips including a driver trying to rip his camera off the windshield and a police officer singing Christmas songs.

[buddysmellgood]

32. Who decides whether what I do is right or wrong in my own home? Police?

George Bush?

[megatherium]

34. Video cameras monitoring public areas has been done for

a long time in some places. LA has done this for years, and I seem to recall it has lessened crime in the areas where this is being done. They also have microphones in various locations to listen for gunshots; a computer can triangulate to get the location of the gunshot instantly, and the police can head towards the location of the possible gun crime before anyone calls for help.

I personally have no problem with any of this. I draw the line at my own residence -- without probable cause, that is without a warrant, the police shouldn't be monitoring me. This includes tricks like using an infrared camera to detect unusual sources of heat in people's basements (from growlights in a basement marijuana operation, perhaps).

I will say what worries me: The fact that almost everyone uses Microsoft Windows on their computer. I am concerned that the government will obtain (without anyone's permission or knowledge) access to critical personal data, beginning with electronic communication (email, video chat, etc). Operating system software is extremely complex, and it will be impossible to be sure that Microsoft or other parties are not monitoring your computer and the data stored on it. Note how easily Google and Yahoo accomodated the Chinese government's demands to politically censor their search engines. The major software companies have as little regard to our liberties and privacy as the energy companies have to the environment.

[BlueManDude]

37. Dem Convention Boston

I learned from the moment I stepped off the train to the moment I arrived at work that I am being watched.

[awoke_in_2003]

38. I have always loved that idea

"if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?". My response, If Elmer Cheney did nothing wrong (ie drunk while hunting) why did he wait 18 hours to speak with police?

[NoodleyAppendage]

44. Apparently Texas is a breeding ground for idiot FASCISTS.

I think someone needs to post 24/7 surveillance on the fascist Chief Harold Hurtt. Let's see how long he enjoys being watched...but, I guess if he's "not doing anything wrong, then he won't worry about it."

WE NEED A PRIVACY AMENDMENT TO THE CONSITUTION, ASAP.

JB

[JDPriestly]

65. Agreed.

A privacy amendment should be a DU project. We should start a movement now. Here are some ideas about things I would include. I haven't researched this or thought this through.

Every citizen of the United States has the right to privacy in his actions, person, associations, records, communications, and transactions. No branch of government and no person or entity within the United States government or the government of any state within the United States, whether in time of peace or in time of war, may violate the right to privacy of any American citizen without a warrant issued upon a judicial determination of probable cause that the United States citizen has committed a felony. Any individual for whom a warrant permitting an invasion of privacy is issued must be provided with a copy of the warrant and all information upon which it is based within one year of the issuance of the warrant unless charged with a felony within one year of the issuance of the warrant.

The State of California guarantees the right to privacy in the Constitution. The guarantee is very brief and not really very effective. Courts circumvent the guarantee all the time. We have to be careful to ensure that information may be obtained for use in legitimate police enforcement and also that corporations do not have or claim a right to privacy for themselves. One problem is that in investigating criminal conduct, let's say by members of Al Qaeda, it may be necessary to obtain private information about innocent people who associate with organizations that are affiliated with Al Qaeda without knowing of the association. I don't think people object to having their privacy invaded under such circumstances, but I think people want to know that their privacy has been invaded and why. These are just thoughts. This needs a lot of work. A simple statement: "Every citizen of the United States is guaranteed the right to privacy that may not be violated at any time, neither in time of peace, in time of war or in time of national emergency" would be more elegant but too easily weakened by interpreting courts.

[NoodleyAppendage]

72. Awesome post! I'm with ya' n/t

JB

[JDPriestly]

73. Let's keep posting on the idea. Maybe we can get something going.

[WinkyDink]

46. Should have had them on that Texas "hunting" party.

[Malee]

51. A load of bull

Houston is facing a severe police shortage because of too many retirements and too few recruits, and the city has absorbed 150,000 hurricane evacuees who are filling apartment complexes in crime-ridden neighborhoods.

I can't help but wonder if it's this last part why they want these cameras. }(

[DemonFighterLives]

61. Welcome to DU!

Gotta torment the poor people from New Orleans a little more.
Afterall as big Barbara has said, they are better off now than before.
:hi:

[entanglement]

52. "Houston, we have a problem..."

Oh wait...this is Houston we're talking about
:banghead:

[file83]

53. LOL - yes, we have a HUGE problem. n/t

[culturalelite]

58. answer to question

Question: If you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?

Answer: BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE!

[pauldp]

62. Hey How about public cameras in the West Wing?

Fair is fair right?:shrug:

[kevinbgoode]

64. Now this little wingnut quote drives me insane:

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" Chief Harold Hurtt told reporters Wednesday at a regular briefing.

Well, Chief - I'll tell ya why I should be worried about it - because corruption seems to be more inherent among those who hold power than those of us who struggle to earn a day-to-day living. And there are countless cases where abuse of that power includes surveillance of those considered to be political adversaries. The police department's job is more than just about the apprehension of criminals - it is also to ensure the protection of my civil liberties. . .just like my government is SUPPOSED to do.

[Vinca]

66. It's not just cities like Houston, it's coming up in small towns, too.

The Washington Post recently did a story about a picturesque Vermont village not far from where I live. The police chief decided he wanted to install 16 security cameras around town. Fortunately, after many meetings and many letters to the editor, the town fathers came to their senses and the program was axed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/18/AR2006011802324.html

BELLOWS FALLS, Vt. -- This snowy village, in the shadow of Fall Mountain and alongside the iced-over Connecticut River, is the kind of place where a little of anything usually suffices. There are just eight full-time police officers on the town's force, two chairs in the barbershop and one screen in the theater.

A little of anything -- except surveillance cameras. Bellows Falls has decided it needs 16 of those.

Using federal grant money, police plan to put up the 24-hour cameras at such spots as intersections, a sewage plant and the town square. All told, this hamlet will have just three fewer police surveillance cameras than the District of Columbia, which has 181 times Bellows Falls's population.

[Joey Liberal]

68. This kind of thinking put Hitler in power

"I know a lot of people are concerned about Big Brother, but my response to that is, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?" Chief Harold Hurtt told reporters Wednesday at a regular briefing.
======
I don't need anyone watching me. This was a free country until Bush stole the election. Now, our freedoms are being flushed down the right wing toilet.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

70. England has a VAST NETWORK EVERYWHERE!!-every street, every block

it is just a matter of time- all urban areas here soon--