Chavez tells Rice: ‘Don’t mess with me, girl’

[ECH1969]

“Don’t mess with me Condoleezza. Don’t mess with me, girl,” Chavez said during his weekly Sunday broadcast, sarcastically offering her a kiss and jokingly referring to her as “Condolence.”

The warning comes days after Rice described Venezuela as one of the “biggest problems” for the Western Hemisphere and promised to develop regional alliances as part of an “inoculation” strategy to expose what the State Department calls anti-democratic behavior in Venezuela.

Chavez, a former soldier turned populist leader, has promised to create socialist revolution in Venezuela and promote regional integration in Latin America to roll back U.S.-supported economic reforms.

The State Department says Chavez is using the nation’s bountiful oil wealth to meddle in the affairs of neighboring countries, and has slammed him for boosting ties to U.S. foes like Cuba and Iran.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9924691/print/1/displaymode/1098/

[tecelote]

1. ...what the State Department calls anti-democratic behavior in Venezuela.?

How about taking care of anti-democratic behavior here in America before we go criticizing other democracies?

[meganmonkey]

2. Condolence

Heh heh...

That Hugo, always bringing a smile to my face B-)

[murray hill farm]

26. Yep...ya gotta love Hugo!

and ya know what..he speaks for the world..ha..finially the world has someone to do just that...he always brings a smile to my face also.

[HeeBGBz]

106. Haven't heard that one before

Viva Chavez!

[saigon68]

131. KindaSleezy is my favorite

This is one NASTY photo

[Judi Lynn]

132. I've seen that expression before, but never on a Secretary of State!

[anitar1]

137. This nasty witch thinks she is a legend.Barf. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

135. I must confess - I've always loved Hugo's witticisms... :O) n/t

[mdmc]

3. god bless Venezuela!

:kick:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

4. WOW...I'm sure I'm not the only one who wondered if that headline...

...was real. It sure is.

I'll bet she got right on the phone to the Lambie-kins In Chief and stomped her little feet in righteous indignation.

Just like Karen Hughes, Condi may slowly learn that her opinion isn't welcome everywhere.

[acmejack]

6. Miss congeniality!

A charming likeness

[madrchsod]

12. her opinion isn`t welcome any where

in the civilized world

[KoKo]

14. Is that photo shopped? She seems to be growing more evil in

countenance every time I see a photo of her, but I never know if her evil has been "enhanced."

Whatever....She deserved the comments Chavez gave her because she's become a flame thrower and is as bad as Chimp/Cheney with "Bring it on!"

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

15. Absolutely not Photoshopped...it's lifted right off of Yahoo News...

...but good call, because the reason I made a point of saving it for future use is that it certainly DOES look like "evil enhanced."

It's 100% pure unadulterated Condi.

Wait...better take out that "adultery" part.

:evilgrin:

[ConcernedCanuk]

24. "Wait...better take out that "adultery" part." - hmm, makes one wonder . .

.
.
.

"Rice rarely reveals anything about her personal life. She is reportedly a good ice skater and a knowledgeable football fan, and she dated the Denver Broncos' Rick Upchurch while she was attending the University of Denver.Nothing is known of Rice's romantic life since then, except that she has never been married. At a dinner party while Rice was National Security Advisor, she referred to President George W. Bush as "my husband" before abruptly correcting herself."

Read MORE

How does someone who NEVER married make a slip by calling El pRetzeldent her "husband"?

Makes one wonder . . . . :freak:

Oh, another snip from the link above - -

"Her unusual first name is derived from the Italian for an opera stage instruction, con dolcezza, meaning "with sweetness"

Ya, right

[Tight_rope]

96. How could anyone so smart be so fucking stupid!

[zeemike]

45. If you isolate just her eyes

in any picture one gets the feeling that she is a lover of violence. At least that is my impression.

[Judi Lynn]

77. Oh, YEAH! Was she always that vicious, or has it been learned

after joining the administration? It could be she was a monster to start, and that's why she was chosen, and she's revealing her deeper nature now that she knows she's totally protected to do the dipstick's bidding.

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,502934,00.jpg

[anitar1]

138. God, what an ugly bunch of freaks. n/t

[Buns_of_Fire]

143. Condi just told him she couldn't grant him permission to go potty --

-- he had to raise his hand like everyone else. One finger if you have to go Number One, two fingers if you have to go Number Two, three fingers if you have to do both. When he was finally recognized from the podium, much hilarity ensured.

She and John are such cutups.

[Canuckistanian]

46. She's the holder of one of the rings

Each day she becomes more gaunt, more twisted.

One day she will be a wraith, forced to roam the earth to do the bidding of the evil one.

[roody]

123. Kindasleezy has been taking smiling lessons

from Dick!

[colorado_ufo]

129. Image of a true stateswoman.

NOT.

[burrowowl]

5. Viva Chavez!

Venezuela might be more difficult to overtune than Haiti and Haiti is showing spunk, Aristide might be able to go home soon.

[mac56]

7. "using the nation’s bountiful oil wealth..."

...to meddle in the affairs of neighboring countries..."

Unlike, of course, the Saudi Royal Family.

[mdelaguna2000]

8. Good one!

[hlthe2b]

9. Chavez, either instinctively or through training... knows psychology...

this is going to get interesting, I think.....:popcorn:

[pocket]

10. Go Hugo!

.

[madrchsod]

11. OUCH !

watch enough spainish tv or work with mexican woman like i do and you`ll know what that`s all about...this is NOT going to go well anywhere south of the usa border.

[54anickel]

16. How so? By "this" do you mean Chavez's "girl" remark? eom

[Palladin]

20. Fweepers are calling it

"racist". They want to say "sexist" too, but they just ....just...........can't:hurts:
They are encouraging Big Daddies Rumsfeld Bush and Cheney to kick Chavez' @ss for the dis.
Seems like a lot of folks don't have respect for the American government junta these days
and Condi is nuthin' if not an Uncle Thomasina....the Chimp is her "husband" after all....

[earth mom]

13. Go Hugo!

:woohoo:

[SpiralHawk]

17. Raw Machismo Vs. the Feminine Face of Corporo-Christo-Facism

Is that a wise direction to take this international dispute with SO MANY implications and reverberations?

i sincerely doubt it.

[NashVegas]

90. Yes. No. Maybe.

Ever since those photos came out from her Germany (?) visit, Condi has been playing off that dominatrix image and using it to the hilt.

Because of that, and only that, I think this is fair game.

[Brothaman2k]

18. Easy folks...

I'm all for bashing Condi, as she and anyone associated with a nitwit president are prone to, but Hugo Chavez does have the potential to be a problem to this country and even the South American continent.

Let's not get hot and heavy about jumping to his defense just because he has a verbal pimp slap for a woman that can frankly use one.

I can only hope him and his rhetoric/rabble rousing will cool a bit as soon as we dump the dead weight in this country, ie. the current administration.

[goforit]

23. Well .....how can he be harmful? Bush strengthens this man every day.

For a bunch of countries that have been abused for fifty plus years
I actually love to watch them stike for their independence from us,
no matter what style of gov't it is. If you look at OUR Democracy, Bush has shown how easy it can be toppled by criminal thugs.

So comparing our Banana Republic to Venezuela's is truely of no
value at this point in time.

[Divernan]

25. Chaves has potential to save Latin America from US's poverty/plunder

I follow Chavez's comments and actions fairly closely and so far he's been a determined and inspirational leader to his people. To borrow the favorite adjective of Cheney's & Rice's PR writers, Chavez is truly a robust leader. He's positioning his country in good alliances with China and India, as well as Cuba. The only people who have to fear Chavez are the international industrial exploiters of Latin Americanos. What's your problem with him? Worried about your stock dividends?

[tabasco]

28. Give some examples.

How is Chavez going to hurt us or South America?

Cut off the oil? It is their oil.

Chavez is standing up to America and the Bush corporate cabal meddling in his country.

Please - give me some examples how Chavez is going to hurt us.

REMEMBER - they are a sovereign nation. They have no obligation to operate in accordance with what is best for the USA.

[anitar1]

139. Plus he has been instrumental in bringing South American

countries together. I believe there are Seven S.A. countries now, who are united against being plundered and exploited by the U.S. this has to be maddening to bushco.Good for Chavez.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. We've tried to overthrow his government, and have probably....

...tried to kill him at least once, and he's the problem? And you accuse Chavez of "rabble rousing" when Herr Busch has dine nothing but "rabble rouse" since that day in December 2000 when he was unlawfully selected by the U. S. Supreme Court as the winner of the 2000 election?

That's a real interesting line of reasoning, real interesting.

[IndianaGreen]

30. I'll take Venezuela over Imperial America any day!

The same people that are fucking us here are the ones whining about the "poor" Venezuelan elites.

[mainer]

31. chavez was democratically elected -- and will win re-election

I thought we were all for spreading democracy?

[Mandate My Ass]

LOL

umm, yeah, whatever. :eyes:

[bvar22]

50. Lets do a quick inventory.

Hugo Chavez is:

*Feeding the Hungry

*Healing the Sick

*Sheltering the Homeless

*Educating the Ignorant


I see what you mean.
This could cause HUGH!!! problems if it gets out of hand.

Why.....something like this could spread North,
and America as we know it would cease to exist.

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[LynnTheDem]

67. WTF??!

Quote:

"Hugo Chavez does have the potential to be a problem to this country and even the South American continent."

GOOD ONE! :rofl:

[silverweb]

69. Huh?

"...Hugo Chavez does have the potential to be a problem to this country and even the South American continent."

Would you care to elaborate on that?

The evidence tells me something quite different.

[EFerrari]

133. No, Hugo is right. And he is under no obligation to pacify

a global terrorist goverment.

Defense? What about, admiring someone with the sand to confront these criminals?

Defense my remote.

[goforit]

19. roflmao!!!!.....He's quicker than any Dem let alone Dean!!!

I just love his chuztpah!!!

[revree]

21. I love this guy!!!

Can we trade Bush for Chavez? PLEASE???

[Harper_is_Bush]

22. Ahhhhh shit that's funny. Anyone heard Steave Earle's song "condi condi"?

Oh Condi Condi beggin’ on my knees
Open up your heart and let me in wontcha please
Got no money but everybody knows
I love you Condi and I’ll never let you go
Sweet and dandy pretty as can be
You be the flower and I’ll be the bumble bee
Oh she loves me oops she loves me not
People say you’re cold but I think you’re hot

Oh, Condi, Condi
Oh, Condi, Condi

Oh Condi, Condi I’m talkin’ to you girl
What’s it gonna hurt come on give me a whirl
Shake your body now let me see you go
One time for me Oh Condi I love you so
Skank for me Condi show me what you got
They say you’re too uptight I say you’re not
Dance around me spinnin’ like a top
Oh Condi Condi Condi don’t ever stop

Oh Condi Condi Can’t you hear me call
I’m standin’ in the street outside your garden wall
Pocketful of money belly full of wine
Condi in my heart and romance on my mind
Listen to me Condi don’t be afraid
I come here tonight to chase your blues away
I’ll never hurt you I’ll treat you right
Oh Condaleeza won’t you come out tonight

Pretty little Condi precious as can be
Bet you never had another lover like me

[goforit]

27. Yuk!

[SpiralHawk]

92. It's got a great tune - the song really rocks

Local radio used to play it a lot last summer.

[in_cog_ni_to]

97. I Have! I have his CD.....Maybe we should send Chavez a copy!

:rofl:

[Carni]

32. That Chavez has a SERIOUS problem!

*Girl*???

Dude! I don't know what girl's look like in Venezuela... but that person hasn't been a *girl* since the Nixon admin and I am not all that sure she was one then!

Sheessh! Next he'll be calling Ann Coulter "lady"

(Sorry I saw an opening and I had to go for it)

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobalu]

38. Here's a challenge for Due'ers: Finding a way to verbally criticize

females whom we dislike and with whom we disagree withOUT resorting to gender slurs which obviously insult ALL women, including those on this board..

..After all, you wouldn't call Ohio Sect'y of State, Ken Blackwell, a "Nazi Domineering Nigger", would you?...Her views have NOTHING to do with her gender...Nada.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobalu]

55. uh...I wasn't challenging your "rights"...I was iinitiating

a challenge, to your intelligence and ideals as a progressive...To find a way to criticize people without impugning their gender or race...get it?

[IndianaGreen]

58. Since Condi Rice is only a rodent, and not human

any epithet would apply to her.

[anotherdrew]

44. It's a comment on her maturity level, not gender.

I might well and often have referred to bush as a little boy, so what?

Hugo's just pushing their buttons.

[bobalu]

49. The term for an immature female is "girl"...not "bitch"

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fshrink]

68. Well, she does have a pimp. And she sells her minority status.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

64. If you want to slash your wrists in defence of Condi Rice...

Who are we to stop you?

[Carni]

43. That would definitely work! eom

[mainer]

60. "chica" (girl) is rather a friendly term, I think

If he called her "Mujer," that would feel more like an insult.

[VirginiaDem]

65. exactly n/t

[auagroach]

125. Different Cultures

FWIW, I don't have the text in Spanish either but the words, "chica" and "chico" are used quite often without the sexism English speakers project on it.

[Judi Lynn]

130. It would appear some posters are unaware any differences exist

from any one culture to the next. It would be impossible trying to explain something so large to them!

Welcome to D.U., auagroach! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[VirginiaDem]

144. Please give specific evidence of cultural insensitivity here. n/t

[iverglas]

145. why not try?

It would appear some posters are unaware any differences exist from any one culture to the next. It would be impossible trying to explain something so large to them!

I started out being somewhat offended by at least the translated version of Chavez's remarks myself, but certainly wondering what the original expression had been.

The WP says:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021901063.html

Chavez modified lyrics from a Venezuelan folk song, warning: "I sting those who rattle me, don't mess with me Condoleezza."

That's useful info, to start with.

Chica/chico certainly don't carry the connotations that "girl" (misogyny) or "boy" (racism) carry in English when used to address adults. A competent translator would know that, and might have sought out an alternative to "girl" that was as socially gender-neutral as "chica" in the context it was used in (if that was the word -- google news won't tell me). Perhaps even something as simple as "my friend". "Don't mess with me, my friend" would carry a similar sarcastic implication of speaking to someone with whom one is on intimate terms, without the implication of patronizing someone / putting her in her place publicly specifically because she is female.

I don't follow Rice's career closely -- perhaps making me culturally insensitive to nuances of US politics -- so I also found the position stated by Crisco in post 90 interesting. I might not agree, but it was worth Crisco's while to inform me, because without that information I would not be a useful participant in any discussion.

Some people learn from what other people say -- remember that those of us who do, and who are merely uninformed rather than wilfully ignorant, are listening too!

[IndianaGreen]

34. Chavez: "No te metas conmigo, chica." Chica is NOT "girl"

Chica is the female form for "chico." It is the equivalent of calling someone "dude"! The word "muchacha" or "niña" (as in one of Columbus's ships) is used for "girl."

The AP mistranslated Chavez words, as usual!

EE UU fracasará

El presidente vaticinó el "fracaso" del "frente internacional" que promueve Estados Unidos para aislar al Gobierno de Venezuela.

"Ese frente de (George W.) Bush, de Condoleezza (Rice) al que están llamando, está condenado a fracasar. Desde ahora se lo digo. Ese frente lo vamos a derrotar. Anótenlo", dijo

Chávez dijo que responderá a las agresiones estadounidenses, así que le advirtió a la secretaria de Estado Condoleezza Rice: "No te metas conmigo, chica".

El mandatario venezolano dijo que los ataques de Estados Unidos contra su gobierno obedecen a los lineamientos de su gobierno que, a su juicio, ha recuperado el control sobre el petróleo y el gas.

http://www.prensaescrita.com/diarios.php?codigo=VEN&pagina=http://www.el-nacional.com

:: Advanced Español-Inglés

chico
1adjetivo pequeño small, little
1nombre masculino femenino gen kid, youngster
1nombre masculino muchacho boy es buen chico he s a good boy
2nombre masculino aprendiz errand boy
› como chico con zapatos nuevos like a kid with a new toy
› dejar chico,-a a ALGN to make SB look small


http://www.diccionarios.com/consultas.php

[VirginiaDem]

37. Actually, girl seems just about right

Chico is somewhat between boy and dude, is it not? If it means masculine kid, then chica would mean femine kid, which is synonymous with girl. Chica in this sense seems to be used in the exact same way as it was translated, i.e., slangily as in "you go, girl".

[IndianaGreen]

40. Niño = boy, niña = girl, niños = children

Americans should take off their cultural glasses when they try to judge how Spanish is used, and what meaning it is convey.

You can see for yourself in this website by Colombian human rights activist, Piedad Cordoba. She starts off by saying "when I was a little girl," the word she uses is "niña!"

http://www.piedadcordoba.net/

[Garbo 2004]

57. I grew up around Spanish speakers, including my family. "Chica" also

used to refer to a girl. Used in that manner it's the feminine of "little one."

[IndianaGreen]

61. It can be a term of endearment

You can say to a grown man, "Oyeme chico!" meaning "hear me, chico"! If this was Argentina, we could have used "che"!

[VirginiaDem]

71. And thus you've justified the original translation

He's using the term of endearment ironically. Rather clever, actually. So chill out on the whole "cultural imperialistic language ignorance" argument, for goodness sakes.

[Garbo 2004]

81. Chavez was being slangy. An English term that's not gender specific that

could be an acceptable alternate translation when used to refer to adults would be "kiddo" or "kid." But, unlike you, I wouldn't insist that "chica" doesn't also mean "girl" and that the AP's translation was a mistranslation.

Either way, I doubt Chavez finds Condi particularly endearing or that he was referring to her fondly. Certainly he was being a tad sarcastic. I guess if he accompanied his statement with a wavy finger snap, one might even translate it into a US slangy "Don't mess with me, girlfriend." (If Chavez suddenly turned into Queen Latifah, that is. LOL)

But anyone who claims his use of the term "chica" is "racist" is guilty of assuming that a known US racist practice of calling a black man "boy" applies to other countries, cultures and languages. It doesn't.

[VirginiaDem]

63. sorry but you got it wrong

sure, I'm fully aware that niño and niña are boy and girl, respectively. As your Cordoba example testifies, however, it is more accurate to qualify with "young". Chico and chica are used for older "girls" and "boys", or more accurately, young women and men. But that sounds way too formal, thus your "dude" translation. But then how does one translate "dude-dudette" into newspaper English?

In your rush to find cultural offense, you seem to be forgetting some of your English. "Girl" has several usages. One of them is used slangily in reference to females who are no longer technically girls. Again, this seems to me to be almost a perfect fit with Chavez' usage here.

So, how should Chavez'"chica" be translated in this situation? Dude? Dudette? Again, "girl" as in "you go, girl" works great.

And take another look at the def'ns of "chico" supplied at the bottom of your original post--it's obvious that "chico" and "chica" can be synonymous with girl in certain situations, stressing the "can".

[anotherdrew]

56. best translation would have been: Honey (with finger snap) n/t

[mainer]

66. Chica -- it's like calling your gal friends "Hey girlfriend!"

Not at all the same as "little girl."

Teenagers call each other chica all the time. ("Oye, Chica!")

[iverglas]

146. nope, it's very bad

A competent translator (the kind that newspapers don't employ to give them snap translations for news articles) would be very aware that "chica" means something very different to a Spanish speaker from what "girl" means to an English speaker, when used to address a woman whom one is telling off.

Calling a woman "girl" in English, in that context, especially when a man does it, amounts to using language to put the woman in her place: the inferior place of women in the society. Just like calling a black man "boy" in the same context does, especially when a white person does it. Even if the speaker doesn't intend the put-down, much of the listening audience will hear it.

"Chica", in the context at hand, might have been best translated by something like "my little friend": the word "chica" implies intimacy, in this context sarcastically, without any gender-specific implications, and it's that kind of expression that was needed.

Even "my little friend", given the social context, might be more offensive when addressed to a woman than to a man. Chavez would call Bush "chico" in the same context, but perhaps not "my little friend". "Girlfriend", which someone here suggested, might actually have been a good idiomatic counterpart, with the masculine version being "dude" perhaps; neither of them seems to assign stereotyped characteristics to the person spoken to, or reinforce sex-role stereotyping the way "girl" for women (like "boy" for black men) does. "Chum" or "pal" might have worked too.

The way to approach the translation problem is to look for a term in English that would apply equally to men and women, as chica/chico does in Spanish, pretty much, anyway. If there isn't one, look for a doublet that applies to men and women separately but without carrying gender-specific negative connotations. "Girl" doesn't fit the bill, so Chavez seems to be being damned for the translator's sin here.

I might have damned him myself (although I do speak unexcellent Spanish, and do know a lot about translation problems, so I did want to know what the original was first, and appreciate IndianaGreen's finding it, since I couldn't when I looked). It really is important to know facts and context.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VirginiaDem]

72. The only thing turned to mush

here was the attempt to knee-jerk the translator as a cultural imperialist. The translation was correct.

[roody]

124. Chica does not have to be a child.

It has the feeling of familiarity---used among friends and peers.

[auagroach]

127. Not to pick hairs...

.... and I'm no expert on the Spanish tongue but I'd say they're the equivilant of "gal" and "guy".

[shanti]

35. CTFU!!!

:rofl:

[happydreams]

36. Rice's attack comes on the heels of Chavez nabbing a drug kingpin

I believe that Bush is worried about Chavez throwing a wrench in the drug trade out of Columbia. Also Bolivia, which is growing closer to Chavez, is largely dependent on exporting cocaine.

With Afghanistan in turmoil and the drug supplies from their unrealiable the fascist run CIA could see their moneystream dry up.

[anotherdrew]

47. that's right Chavez is going to ruin the bush/cia drug network, just wait

the US secret government types, the bushes especially, have been running drugs into this country for decades, now maybe it's going to be cut off at the source. Won't that be a laugh. And if that happens, you can expect to see the stock market go down, the fascist pigs have been using drug money to pump up the market for quite some time. bush's little empire is already crumbling, what worthless dogs, and that's an insult to dogs. Words fail to describe the utter contemptibility of the bush gang.

[Vidar]

119. Can't call 'em whores either--an insult to most prostitutes.

[VegasWolf]

41. Maybe Bush has quit coke the way he quit drinking, wink-wink, only

socially, and he is worried about his supply from South America.

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[elehhhhna]

42. He calls * "Dangerman" & her "Condolence"? LOL. What's he call Karen &

Karl? FatMan & littleboy?

[HeeBGBz]

108. Dangerman and Condolence begs for a photo shop

Bumbling Supervillains.

[Judi Lynn]

52. I wanted to point out, for anyone who wondered, that a poster's claim

that Hugo Chavez is on tv all the time, raving on and on, that this article and others I have read indicates he has ONE weekly program, during which he takes spontaneous phone calls from Venezuelans: a call-in show. That's the show. No hours of raving, day in, day out, no raving at all. Someone got carried away trying to make a case against Chavez.

It's amazing what some people will try to foist off on people who don't know what the real story is.

In the meantime, their own pResident will move heaven and earth to keep from facing the American public directly, unscripted.

[IndianaGreen]

53. The name of the show is "Ola"

Spanish for "Hi!" or "Hello!"

[Flanker]

73. Actually it is Alo

More or less hello but only used when answering the phone, the presidential show is a call in show ergo the name.

Also the name "Condolencia" is funnier than the translation.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

85. It's "Aló Presidente". n/t

[IndianaGreen]

88. Thanks!

:)

[HockeyMom]

54. Viva Chavez and CITGO

[killbotfactory]

149. The show has a website, too

http://www.alopresidente.gob.ve/

[Rex]

62. Kinda Sleazy Rice

Chavez was elected to office...unlike Idiot-in-Charge Bush. As your paymaster Dead Eye Dick says, "Go fuck yourself, Rice!"

[LynnTheDem]

70. Viva Chavez!

:)

[lovuian]

74. Chavez playing hard ball with Condi

She is spouting out threats and he is making his own...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951-Riverside]

86. ...Verbally

I'm not advocating physical violence

[Nikki Stone 1]

76. Much as I hate Condi, this remark just proves Chavez a sexist asshole

Sorry guys, but it's true.

[1932]

79. Do you trust the translation?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. We call everybody that, whether male or female, young or

old. This is just silly. n/t

[Nikki Stone 1]

100. You call everyone "little girl"? Is it a compliment?

?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

104. It is not little girl. When we say chico or chica. it's like

saying dude or dudette. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexism. Check out his policies towards women and the way he talks about the women that shaped his life. then make up your own mind. This is some truly silly shit. There have never been so many committees for women run by women in that country as there are now.

[Nikki Stone 1]

107. Two problems:

First: Is it that way in Venezuelan Spanish? I am not sure which Spanish you speak but, as you and I know, there are differences in vocabulary, pronunciation and usage among the different nations is South, Central and North America. Social usage is among the most problematic issues as one goes from nation to nation.

Second: The familiarity implied is not respectful of the office Condi holds. I haven't heard Chavez call Dick Cheney "little boy" (chico). I do think the usage is gendered here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

110. These problems are all in your head. Let's try again.

When my aunt calls my dad chico it has nothing to do with little this or that. OK? It's the way we talk. Venezuelan slang is probably the closest to ours in South America. When I call my friend chica it means nothing more than dude. Venzuelans use chamo, chama, chico, chica interchangeably. Argentinians say che. What exactly is so hard to understand? If you don't like the way we talk, that's your problem not ours. Age and gender are not part of the equation. I swear I'm not making it up, really for real. I don't know how else to explain it. These terms are not used literally in slang or casual conversation. If he wanted to call her a little girl he would say chiquilla or niña. Slang does not translate well sometimes, period end of story.

[Nikki Stone 1]

112. These problems are sociolinguistic in nature. You need to learn a little

before you flame.

Nonetheless, let's address the issue. You have said the following:

"When I call my friend chica it means nothing more than dude."

So, as I thought, the expression IS a familiar one, to be used among friends and family, not in the public sphere. Chavez's use of this level of informality is inappropriate to use with a Secretary of State. In sociolinguistics, we call this a problem with "register".

Chavez deliberately used overfamiliarity to denigrate. I'll believe it is not gender based when I hear him call Junior or Cheney "chico".

You also said,

"Slang does not translate well sometimes, period end of story. "

It never does, which is why it is to be avoided in public comments.

And the comments being made about Condi on this thread are indicative that many DUers misunderstood the "little girl" phrase (which is why many of them are so pleased; they like hearing Condi denigrated.)

So, you have actually proved my point.

Now, for the record, I think Condi Rice has abysmal record of lying, distortion, and, sometimes, very bad judgement in certain international matters. She is a neocon through and through, which explains all of her problems without referring to her gender. If Chavez had simply referred to her general ineptness, I wouldn't have a problem. I believe that she, along with many of Junior's choices (like "fashion god" Michael Brown) are truly inept.

However, Chavez's use of a overfamiliar, gendered expression tells me more about Chavez than about Condi.

[LibertyorDeath]

114. Oh good god

"So, as I thought, the expression IS a familiar one, to be used among friends and family, not in the public sphere. Chavez's use of this level of informality is inappropriate to use with a Secretary of State. In sociolinguistics, we call this a problem with "register".

"inappropriate to use with a Secretary of State."

Thanks for the linguistics lesson but I have
to ask why you think anyone including Chavez
should show deference to her title (Secretary of State) when she is so obviously undeserving
of it.

She is a joke, a bad fucking joke.

[roody]

126. It is inappropriate that the

Secretary of State is going around the world threatening to rain down bombs on people. She and BushCo. deserve to be disrespected.

[Garbo 2004]

117. Re: gender. It's Spanish. In English we can use "kiddo" or "kid" without

any specific gender. But that's English, not Spanish. Yes, it was disrepectful and a use of slang. But inherently "sexist?" Then so is the language.

If Chavez calls Bush crazy in Spanish, as he has, no doubt he says "loco" rather than "loca."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

141. I need to learn more about MY language and culture????

"It never does, which is why it is to be avoided in public comments." Last time I checked he was talking to his people and not you or any other paranoid self righteous person to the north. Like I said you have the problem not us.

You have proven to everybody in this thread that you have no clue what you're talking about. You're silly ass comments say more about you than they do about us or Mr Chavez. This whole little spiel of yours proves to me that it is based on the stereotype that we are supposed to be a bunch of chauvinist anti feminist this or that. As portrayed in your movies and all the stupid machismo comments I read in this site every so often. Do you know the language? No. I'll say it again it has nothing to do with gender or age. That's some pretty ignorant and condescending shit. But I'll tell you what. This is pointless and you seem to have basic reading and understanding issues so:

You are totally right he is such a woman hater. He should be tarred and feathered and made to wear a funny hat.

[iverglas]

147. interesting

However, Chavez's use of a overfamiliar, gendered expression tells me more about Chavez than about Condi.

First, "chica" really isn't "gendered" in Spanish; it exists in both genders, and is generally used without gender-specific implications or connotations. One really would call a woman "chica" in the same context in which one would call a man "chico".

Chavez deliberately used overfamiliarity to denigrate. I'll believe it is not gender based when I hear him call Junior or Cheney "chico".

In my comments about the translation (in the post saying that it was really very bad -- and I really am an authority on this too ;) ), I assumed that Chavez would indeed have called a man in an office equivalent to Rice's, against whom he had grievances similar to those he has against Rice, "chico". My acceptance of his use of the term "chica" hinges on that assumption, obviously.

If he would not have done that, then yes, the use of "chica" was gendered. Whether he would have done that is something we can't actually know until he does it, or avoids an opportunity to do it. We can have opinions, based on whatever facts we know about him. If we don't know him to be sexist or misogynist in his attitudes, we should probably reserve judgment, although it would be reasonable to identify the potential problem. There is a question as to whether what he said tells us more about him than about her, and we might quite reasonably look for an answer.

The sarcastic implication of intimacy/familiarity you and I have both identified was of course the entire point. Whether that was inappropriate when addressing a senior government official is kind of beside the point; the "inappropriateness" was his entire message, and kind of amounts to "come on down here and say that", or "your mother wears army boots / so's your old man". We can like it or lump it, basically. But I would share your view that it would be inappropriate if used only when addressing a female senior government official.

I do agree with you that we see a lot of eagerness to accept and justify the use of sexist language against women people don't like, hereabouts.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikki Stone 1]

99. People gloating over the comment are trusting the translation. You might

ask them the same question.

[roody]

128. Que viva Hugo,

chico, mio. Un beso.

[anitar1]

140. Nikki Stone=disabled profile. n/t

[Solon]

148. So sexist that the Constitution of Venezuela...

the one he pushed for actually includes "homemaker" as a value added profession that can draw Social Security, in addition to including equal rights for men and women enshrined in it.

[1932]

150. That should be a wedge issue to use against Republicans.

Republicans talk about how valuable being a stay at home mom is to society. Well, would they like to put their money where their mouths are and help lift single-worker families economically by giving the non-working parent SS benefits?

[IndianaGreen]

80. Met any Latino men lately?

Obviously not!

[Nikki Stone 1]

101. Thanks for the non sequitur.

:)

[goforit]

83. Not as sexist as your President.

Don't take his statement out of context.

He is basically talking to Condi and not every female species in the world.
Condi shows no female attributes and only represents herself as
her maker...the inferior WH with low self esteem whom hides behind her skirt. This is the truest definition of a bushbot.

[Nikki Stone 1]

102. But Junior is not a Du hero, while Chavez is. Hence the critique.

I wouldn't be shocked if it were Junior. Actually, I wouldn't shocked at anything if it were Junior.

[Pastiche423]

91. A sexist asshole?

Please, please, please explain.

She deserves a lot more than the cute utterings from Chavez.

Viva Chavez!

[Nikki Stone 1]

103. The remarks are anti-female in nature. If Chavez wants to criticize her,

let him criticize her based on her ideas, her actions and her loyalty to Junior. God knows, there's enough there for Chavez to write a damned book.

Imagine if this were during the CLinton administration and it was Madeline Albright that Chavez was denigrating as "little girl". I don't know you about you, but that would tick me off.

Now, I'm not suggesting that we send Pat Robertson over to Venezuela on a secret mission, but I am suggesting that DU holds its heroes to higher standards than its enemies.

[Pastiche423]

111. How is calling her a girl, anti-female?

girl = female.

As far as I am concerned, he is being way too polite in his description of the debaucher.

Btw, I am female.

[Nikki Stone 1]

113. Woman = female. Girl = female child.

Chavez is denigrating her as a woman.

[Pastiche423]

120. Good god!

I absolutely adore someone calling me a girl. To me, it is a compliment. How in hell is it denigrating?

You're really stretching to make it so.

[EFerrari]

134. He isn't but were he to do so, I'd second him.

lol

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

142. ¿Coño chica vas a seguir jodiendo con la misma cosa? n/t

[Garbo 2004]

122. He's said Bush was crazy. In Spanish that would be "loco" since he's male.

Rather than "loca" which is the feminine version of the word and would be used if Bush was a woman.

If your objection is based on Chavez's obvious lack of respect to members of the Bush Administration that basically supported his attempted overthrow and even assasination, that's one thing.

But when you conclude that his use of a gender specific word in this instance is inherently "sexist" I can only imagine that you don't really understand the Spanish language.

[Peace Patriot]

78. Hugo...

has made my day!

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NashVegas]

87. Is Chavez a Steve Earle Fan

Shades of 'Condi, Condi.'

[cal04]

89. Hu go boy, good for you Chavez

Chavez modified lyrics from a Venezuelan folk song, warning: "I sting those who rattle me, don't mess with me Condoleezza."








http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/19/AR2006021901063.html

[roody]

95. Que viva Hugito!!

not meant to be sexist or racist or ageist

[fearnobush]

93. Viva Chavez! Neo Liberal Fascist Bush Punks.

<>

[clitzpah queen]

105. I'd LOVE to know where one can see that billboard in person! n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

116. Rhode Island.

http://carlsheeler.com/

"If you haven't seen the billboard yet, it's just north of the Thurbers curve in Providence on the east side of I-95."

On edit: Interesting, "US Marine Veteran." I'm not up on RI politics - wonder if he's being Swiftboated?

[Triana]

94. kindasleezy needsta learn to keep her mouth shut

...sometimes.

[Nutmegger]

109. Go Chavez

Give right back to her!

[ronnie624]

115. Interesting.

"Diplomatic relations between the United States and Venezuela, the world’s No. 5 oil exporter, have been strained since Chavez accused the United States of plotting a coup d’etat that briefly ousted him in 2002."

So you see, it wasn't the plotting of the coup d'etat that strained relations between the two countries, it was the accusation by President Chavez. Apparently we're suppose to forget all about the several administration officials who lauded the coup to the skies as a triumph of democracy or some such at the time.

[Vidar]

118. Chavez shoots and scores again. Condolences

[American liberal]

121. I think the current admin. doesn't get what it means to be "transparent"

In not-for-profit circles, transparency means to be above board, have records that are an open book, and to be accountable to the interests being served. I'm beginning to think the Bushies believe that transparency means that the public should easily be able to see through the lies and deceit propagated by a corrupt administration, which just ain't the same thing.

Go, Rhode Island! Impeach the Bahstahd!

[steveo]

151. Big business has it locked up at the moment...

Nobody wants transparency in the present administration, they wouldn’t be able to steal so much if there was transparency. We just need to get good people into our government so we can have a little accountability. This isn’t to say that all the democrats are so hot. In my congressional district, democratic congresswoman Jane Harman loves the patriot act and thinks the law should be changed to allow bush to spy on everybody. She wants to fix the law to fit the policy.

If we want transparency I think we need to dump the democrat in name only types as well.

[Moderator]

152. Locking....

This conversation has run it course.