Order to open Holocaust archive fought

[Judi Lynn]

Feb. 19, 2006, 9:56PM
Order to open Holocaust archive fought
The collection is heavy on personal detail, making it a delicate issue


By ROGER COHEN
New York Times

Tempers are flaring over a U.S. demand to open to scholars and researchers a huge repository of information about the Holocaust contained in the files of the International Tracing Service at Bad Arolsen, Germany.

Based in part on documents gathered by Allied forces as they liberated Nazi concentration camps, the stock of files stretches for about 15.5 miles, and holds information on 17.5 million people, one of the largest closed archives anywhere.

The collection is unique in its intimate personal detailing of a catastrophe, which is what makes the question of open access so delicate. The papers may reveal who was treated for lice at which camp, what ghoulish medical experiment was conducted on which prisoner and why, who was accused by the Nazis of murder or incest or pedophilia, which Jews collaborated and how they were induced to do so.
(snip)

But that push has met a wall of legal and procedural objections — from Charles Biedermann, the Red Cross official who has been director of the Tracing Service for two decades, and from the German and Italian governments. The atmosphere within the 11-nation international commission that oversees the operation has become poisonous.
(snip/...)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3671299.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Open the damn files!

Let the horror see the light of day! Considering the number of deniers and minimalists that exist, these files should be allowed to be seen by everyone!

[RC]

2. Agreed. But why does the U.S. want to examine them?

To get ideas on how to better treat enemies of the state?

[formercia]

5. Grand pappy bush managed slave labor

Perhaps someone wants to make the files disappear.

[IndianaGreen]

6. The files may also hold info that reflects badly on the US

such as how the US protected some of the Nazi war criminals because they would be useful against the Soviets.

[phusion]

15. self delete n/t

[ronnie624]

42. Not to mention profiting from the manufacture

of concentration camps and the use of slave labor.

If I remember correctly, Standard Oil benefited from a partnership with I.G. Farben, one of the primary contractors in the manufacture and operation of slave labor camps and factories.

I hope they open this archive. The information it contains would be fascinating.

[Javaman]

19. IBM leased the tabulating machines to Germany, that the nazi's used...

to track all those that were killed.

IBM continues to claim they didn't have any knowledge of the use of the machines, however, they leased them and provided a service contract with all the machines.

They knew.

The opening of these files would prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[nofoil]

10. Understandable, its

an important weapon against those who say the Holocaust never happened, which is why it must eventually be opened. Yet, then again, I can understand why people would want to keep those files closed, at least for the present, while survivors remain alive. Such a move would protect people from serious privacy infringements. Some of the stuff contained in the archives sounds absolutely shocking. If I had survived such horrors, and was a private person, I don't know if I'd want the world to know about every sordid detail of what I was forced to endure. Thinking about it just overwhelms me with sorrow.

[OKthatsIT]

20. Why? So Bush&daBoyz can gain fresh ideas? Bush think he's

finishing the brilliant works of his ancestors. He isn't revealing THE HORRORS, he's masterbating.

[Journeyman]

3. Given the acrimony generated among the victims. . .

by testimony about the complicity of Jewish Councils during Eichmann's trial, I imagine there are a host of parties interested in keeping these files from the light of day -- quite apart from unrepentant Nazis, their heirs, and those who had nothing to do with it but are simply trying to move forward. Given the sheer volume of material that has been available for so many decades, the reasons for these archives being cloistered so long, and by such a dispassionate body (the ICRC), need to be examined before rash judgements are enforced. Frankly, this article doesn't deal in near enough detail for reasoned analysis.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Who are the "host of parties?" n/t

[Journeyman]

9. Those complicit with the Councils during the war. . .

survivors and relatives of the Council members, descendents of Nazis, those with a desire to keep their family medical histories private (both sides of the wire), unrepentant Nazis who feel secure in anonymity, anyone who had an opportunity to help yet let it slip away, various corporations and institutes that either profited or consented in the crimes, the Kapos and their descendents . . . goodness, the list is near endless, as varied and diverse as the victims themselves, I've no doubt. These are personnel files and inventory lists from death factories -- who among the complicit would willfully release such damning details? And who among the heirs wishes to see their family shame made public -- especially those who wish for nothing more than to move forward in their own lives.

There are details galore about the death factories, the names and faces of the major perpetrators are well recorded, and whether someone will believe the evidence at hand or not is hardly incumbent on knowing the fate of individuals and the intimate details of specific cases. As I said above, this article does little justice to decisions made and adhered to for decades by a dispassionate source. Until those concerns are alleviated, there's too little info for reasoned belief.

[jbnow]

7. It's just ironic

that the US is demanding open files from anyone.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anitar1]

11. I think opening these files would be a positive event.

Nazi's who labeled Jews as undesirables, do not have a speck of crediability, IMHO. And let's have it about the Zionists. there are always traitors on both sides of the sheets.Myths must be exposed. Millions of Jews were the victims here.Let's have truth. To hell with the politicians.

[formercia]

12. Like the South African Truth and Reconciliation

not to persecute but to find the truth and have closure. It would also be a deterrent for current and future dictators and their enablers to realize that the truth will come out and history will be their judge.

[Colorado Blue]

18. That isn't your point at all is it, but rather to rip open ancient

wounds.

WHAT reconciliation? Between the Jewish people and the Nazis? Are we never to be allowed to recover from this catastrophe?

I'm sorry but the comments posted are ugly in the extreme. They don't suggest a desire for reconciliation at all but rather the inflammation of antisemitic stereotypes.

Let the fact that the worldwide Jewish population of around 13 million is 2 million LESS than calculated in the 1930's, speak for itself.

We don't have to give anybody any excuses for the Holocaust, let alone be blamed as complicit.

That's HORRIBLE.

Shame.

[formercia]

30. are you saying there were no KAPOS or collaborators?

some people will do anything to survive, including turning in their own. It's well documented. Sorry if you can't accept the truth.

Police States don't function very well without a network of collaborators and spies. I've seen how it works first-hand and it is a very ugly business. Collaborators are scum, no matter their genre.

[Colorado Blue]

31. Sure there were kapos and collaborators. SO WHAT?

That isn't the reason for keeping the lid on this. It's more a matter of the German government, not the Jews, who want to keep the documents closed.

But you're implying that Jewish people want to keep these files secret, which isn't the case - in fact it's the opposite.

And also, you are making absurd and nauseating accusations and implications, and that's just wrong.

[formercia]

32. Let the records speak for themselves

only then we will know the truth, regardless of whom it implicates.

I think the tens of Millions who died deserve nothing less.

[formercia]

36. I have a very personal reason for my views

In 1982, President Regan was roundly criticized for laying a wreath on the graves of some German soldiers. I happened to have access to the same report that prompted his trip. When I read it, I was floored. I had heard the story some 30 years before when I had asked my father about some odd looking 8x57 Mauser rifle bullets that I had found when looking through some of his war souvenirs. He told me that they were dum-dum bullets that the germans used for house to house fighting because their wooden tips wouldn't penetrate walls. He told me that they had captured a barracks of German troops and when they found the bullets under their pillows, they took the 175 soldiers outside, put them against the wall and executed them on the spot.
The report indicated that the bullets were in fact, blanks and not the dum-dum bullets that they had been rumored to be. I then realized that my father was in fact a war criminal.
President Regan's act was an apology for the incident.

This is why the truth is so important.

[Codeine]

40. I don't believe that for a second.

The truth is important, but your story smells like BS.

[formercia]

43. It's absolutely true.

It was documented by the US government and printed in the NID.

My father was a member of an OSS team that jumped into France just before D-Day. He worked with the French resistance to slow German re-enforcements to Normandie.

[ikojo]

39. Jews have been more than willing to write books about

the Judenrat (Jewish councils) and how they worked with the Nazis. There is a book by Isaiah Trunk that goes in depth about the Judenrat

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080329428X/qid=1140482801/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-5117781-1908645?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[Colorado Blue]

24. The director of a Holocaust museum is pushing to open

the archives:

'"This is a scandal and a big scar on the image of Germany," said Sara Bloomfield, the director of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, which has been eager to secure copies of the files.

Paul Shapiro, the director of advanced Holocaust studies at the museum, accused Germany of "abusing efforts to achieve consensus" and "exerting a stranglehold on the process." He added, "Hiding this record is a form of Holocaust denial."

Such strong words are at odds with the generally positive tenor of German-American relations on Holocaust matters, even through negotiations as elaborate as those that led to Germany's agreement in 2000 to compensate former slave laborers of the Nazis.'

snip (from the article)

One gets the sense from the article, that a very big reason for German reluctance to open the files, has to do with possible future lawsuits against Germany or German interests. They've already paid billions in reparations.

I don't think this has anything to do with hiding from the truth for the sake of hiding from the truth. Rather there may be future repercussions against Germany.

[Jim Sagle]

13. This book is self-hating, antisemitic hogwash.

One perceptive Amazon reviewer:

So what!?, January 19, 2006

I see nothing in these allegedly shocking documents that shocks me. Why wouldn't anyone who wanted to save the lives of Jews not cooperate with the devil himself - or even Hitler (who was worse because he actually existed!) - to save them? And why wouldn't Hitler want all the Jews he could get out of the country to go and resettle in a small strip of land in the Mideast, all the better to eventually wipe them out? Indeed, Hitler was *definitely* collaborating with the Palestnian Arabs with whom he shared the goal of doing just that. Lip-service to tryants who can wipe you out is a not a surprising thing, especially when there is a war going on with the outcome uncertain. One says and does what is necessary to survive, which may be "unprincipled" but is also understable.

Another perceptive reviewer:

Antisemitic trash, November 27, 2005
Her Lenni Brenner takes a very complex and dark time in history and twists it to make claims and draw conclusions that are, at best, delusional and paranoid and at worst, a pure expression of hatred and furthering of egotistical agenda. Unfortunately, there are many readers who share his hatred, and are quite happy to jump on Brenner's revisioninst bandwagon (e.g. william hughes is a classic example). Its a disgusting display and heartbreaking to find that the depth of ignorance and evil of that time & place is alive & well in this time & place.

Brenner's a lousy red. Fuck'm.

[formercia]

14. Another good reason to open the archives and let all see the truth.

Documents don't mean much unless they can be cross-checked and verified as being authentic. No good forensic document examiner would base a decision based on a single questionable document. Even if it takes decades, the truth needs to be told. The victims deserve that the truth sees the light of day, no matter who gets exposed.

[Colorado Blue]

17. Your "information" has been discredited by many reputable

sources. In any case, the emphasis given it in your post is out of all proportion.

Lenni Brenner is a communist with a strongly antiZionist bias and agenda. I would hesitate to give any serious weight whatsoever to his point of view.

In fact I'm rather appalled by your characterization ("shameless") and your misunderstanding of the desperate situation confronting the Jewish people at the time these events occurred. There's a lack of perspective in your remarks so enormous as to amount practically to falsehood.

And the implications of this statement are nauseating.

[superconnected]

16. I'm afraid of what Bushco wants with them. Remember his puppet

lieberman wants fema disolved and opened as a new org under homeland security.

[Lars39]

22. Remember what bush asked the guide as Auschwitz?

"Do people challenge the accuracy of what you present?"

[bobthedrummer]

21. Exposure must be a fearful thing to those that, in various ways,

enabled and profited with Nazis before, during and after WWII.

Then there are those that clandestinely "recruited" Nazi war criminals in Operation PAPERCLIP and gave these Nazis identities and jobs as Americans in national security related spheres. These people and organizations also have names.

Names like Bush, Busch, Kissinger, IBM, Ford, McGarrah, Dulles, Donovan, Harriman, NASA etc.
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/waryearsp5.html

The real Nazis and Nazi partisans that were "recruited" found a political home in the RW of The Republican Party.

IMO that's one of the major reasons for this dispute. I'm sure there are others as well.
It is time for the truth to be told, and the hidden history revealed. No more denials or revisionism.

Dresdner Bank AG released the findings of a seven year bank commissioned study last week detailing it's role in financing Nazi arms makers, stake in ownership of a company that built crematoriums at Auschwitz, and other details.

It is time for our nation to confront the truth as well.

[VonDoomPhd]

23. Yeah, well...

For the reasons cited above and countless others you won't see serious, transparent scholarship of World War Two and the Holocaust in particular for another hundred years.

[Colorado Blue]

25. I think that WWII has probably been more extensively documented

already, than any other conflict in history.

Could we still learn more? Yes. But to suggest there has been some sort of massive coverup, is absurd in my opinion.

[bemildred]

26. I don't think he was suggesting a coverup.

More like that discussion is still politicized, assessments are not yet dispassionate, with a historical perspective. Like the way we would discuss Genghis Khan now as opposed to the heat with which the Holocaust is.

[Colorado Blue]

29. I see what you saying. nt

[bemildred]

35. Good. It is true that Bob is suggesting some intent to hide, which is

harder to assess. It could be a number of other things, inertia,
stupidity, turf wars, sincere but misplaced concerns. But
some of the reasons Bob cites are plausible too, there
have been some awkward moments related to European dealings with
the Nazis lately, and there is little doubt that a thorough
scrutinization of these records might engender a few more.

[bobthedrummer]

27. The Clinton administration apologized for US Cold War excesses

and prosecuted Nazis. It attempted to redress some of the harm done to many caused by the Nazis "recruited" at the conclusion of WWII.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/dir/mstreet/commeet/meet13/brief13/tab_f/br13f3.txt

[jwirr]

28. We need them open now! We need to remind the world

just what fascism/corporatism is all about. Yes some will be ashamed of what is revealed but as a person of German nationality I want to make sure this never happens again. Even if my relatives were involved. Please open them.

[fshrink]

33. No archive whatsoever, no source of information whatsoever

should be witheld from the people. No exception, no discussion. End of story.

[TankLV]

34. Open. Them. All. Now.

I have nothing else to say.

[niallmac]

37. OK. I've read the article. So now what's the REAL reason for

not opening the files since those mentioned just don't make any sense.

[iverglas]

38. sometimes strange bedfellows, sometimes uncertain motives

From the article:

At meetings to discuss the opening of the archive, German officials have asked whether it is really in anyone's interest to have accusations about particular Jews being murderers or homosexuals made public. Because German privacy laws are much stricter than those in the United States, German authorities are concerned that an opening could lead to lawsuits charging that personal information was handed out illegally.

This is true -- European countries *do* have much stronger privacy protection than the US, and Europeans *do* tend to hold personal privacy in much higher regard than USAmericans. It *is* important to know this when assessing the motives of those seeking and objecting to the disclosure.

Is that the real reason for the German government's objection? Who knows? Can it have that good reason *and* bad reasons? Certainly. That wouldn't make the good reason bad, or even not genuine. Do we have to accept the German government's protestations of its sincere motives? No, but that doesn't obviate any good reasons there might be for non-disclosure.

The Red Cross's interests are limited and specific: helping individuals. Their concern for victims' privacy would seem to be genuine.

For genealogy research, I use UK census databases that contain personal info. UK law permits the release of those data only 100 years after the census date, by which time it is pretty certain that virtually all of the people in the records are dead.

It is now only 60 years since the end of the war, and there are still victims alive. There are also still close family members of the victims alive, and given the intensely personal nature of some of the data, consideration for family members is more warranted that in the case of census data, for instance.

The databank in this case wasn't created for research purposes. The individuals whose personal data is preserved in it never consented to its publication or use for research purposes. It's their data, not the Red Cross's, or the German government's, let alone the US government's. Yes, not even if the documents were contributed by Allied governments: the personal data in them still belong to the people to whom the data relate.

People don't lose their right to privacy simply because they have been victims of atrocities.

Yes, disclosure of the data might go some way to countering neo-Nazi anti-Semitism. But surely it is the grossest hyperbole to call protecting the privacy of the individuals concerned "hiding" the record, let alone "a form of Holocaust denial". Once again, why can't people just address what their adversaries are actually saying, instead of calling it and them names? Where have the people trying to open the files even addressed the privacy issues?

There's another reason to be cautious, besides concern for privacy:

The papers may reveal ... who was accused by the Nazis of murder or incest or pedophilia, which Jews collaborated and how they were induced to do so.

It has long been a tenet of scientific ethics that data or evidence compiled by the Nazis should not be used; the reason is an amalgam of its unreliability as evidence and our abhorrence of the methods by which it was obtained (and a desire to deny legitimacy to the use of those methods). Kinda like using coerced confessions in court: we started out rejecting them because they are likely to be false, and now we reject them because we condemn coercion and wish to send a message that using it will serve no purpose.

"Information" like this could be horribly damaging to people still alive, and horribly hurtful to their close family. In many cases it is unverifiable and incapable of disproof. And lies can cause harm.

Release of aggregate or non-nominal data would certainly be acceptable.

I'd suggest that those so eager to get their hands on the files pony up the funds for the data to be compiled, by its trustees, in a form that does not disclose individual identities that could then be made available for study.

[Metta]

41. Gee, I wonder why other nations don't trust * with personal information.

Aside from his horrendous track record, I mean.