Venezuela debates home guard bill

[cal04]

Venezuelan lawmakers are to begin debating proposals which would include compulsory service in the home guard.
Army spokesman Gen Alberto Mueller Rojas told the BBC that the country needed a civilian reserve big enough to deter any would-be aggressors. Critics say the new emphasis on militia units is inspired by Cuba's defence system, where each neighbourhood has its own civilian command structure.

Caracas has already boosted the number of volunteers in its military to 2m. Correspondents say the country is setting up the largest national reserve in the Americas - it roughly doubles the size of the US reserves. The move has alarmed the US and neighbouring countries. President Hugo Chavez has repeatedly accused Washington of aggressive behaviour towards Venezuela, an allegation which the US rejects.

Gen Mueller Rojas said Venezuela was moving to a strategy of guerrilla warfare in which militia units would play a key role if the country were invaded. The plans will be discussed by experts and politicians before the parliamentary Defence and Security Commission. Any changes to the military law require the backing of two-thirds of the of the members of the National Assembly. But the BBC's Greg Morsbach in Caracas says this is not a big hurdle for Mr Chavez, as lawmakers loyal to him have a clear majority in congress. Venezuela's armed forces have been carrying out a massive recruitment drive for new reservists since last November.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4739528.stm

[Missy M]

1. The move has alarmed the US. So what else is new.....

Chavez even blows his nose and it alarms the US. Venezuela has every right to have a force to defend the country, just as any country has that right.

[ugarte]

2. Makes more sense than buying jet aircraft

A million armed citizens would make the US think twice.

[0rganism]

3. "...and neighboring countries" -- which ones? Colombia?

Maybe Colombian puppet thugs SHOULD be alarmed, it'll be a helluva lot more difficult to launch Contra-style operations against Chavez's Venezuela through Colombia than it was against the Sandanistas' Nicaragua from Honduras.

But that's all left up to speculation. The article doesn't elaborate, article doesn't source, article doesn't reference, article just flat out drops a general allegation.

What BULLSHIT reporting. How much does the CIA pay the BBC to get this crapola into print?

[anotherdrew]

99. death squads met by local militia, this must deter death squad activity :)

excellent, plus it gives them the man power to deal with the coming hurricane seasons and other regional natural disasters. An important humanitarian function.

[Judi Lynn]

4. Venezuela neglected to ask Bush's permission to buy helicopters.

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 · Last updated 6:40 p.m. PT

Venezuela's military gets 3 Russian copters

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Three Russian-made transport helicopters arrived in Venezuela on Tuesday as part of a broader arms deal between the two nations, Venezuela's defense minister said.

Defense Minister Orlando Maniglia said the three helicopters were the first of 15 to be delivered under two contracts worth a total of $201 million signed last year.

Russia and Venezuela also signed a contract in May for 100,000 Russian-made Kalashnikov rifles, a deal that drew criticism from the U.S. government over concerns that the guns could fall into the hands of leftist rebels in neighboring Colombia or other groups.

Washington sees Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as a destabilizing force in Latin America, and U.S. officials have said the arms purchase is unnecessary.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Venezuela_Russia_Helicopters.html

[ConcernedCanuk]

5. "As The World Turns" - nations arm themselves to keep the US out . .

.
.
.

The whole USA administration is a soap opera

Actually, these nations aren't arming to keep the US out - but to kill them after they do a shawkNawe thing to bomb their way in -

Cuz the US wouldn't win a war on even footing at any rate

Even with the USA's massive firepower and wicked weapons,

They can't win shit . .

Only destroy . .

(sigh)

[Arepa_Power]

6. One more step towards the new Castro...

*sigh*

And meanwhile while Chavez buys all the weapons he can, the poor will continue to get poorer...well until he changes the stats again.

The revolution is always "tomorrow", and he throws scraps to the masses.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Nice try. Maybe this information will help you gain a little perspective.

~snip~

Venezuela is bursting with oil wealth. Nevertheless, more than two-thirds of Venezuelans are living in poverty. For some time, however, things have begun to change, especially thanks to the “social missions” of the Bolivarian revolution launched in the second half of 2003. These social missions are organized around education, health, food supply, employment and the inalienable rights of the people.

Thanks to some 100,000 civilian and military instructors, “Robinson mission number1,” named in honor of Bolívar’s teacher, Simón Rodríguez (called Samuel Robinson during the independence war) has brought literacy to more than one million Venezuelans in only a year. Furthermore, the “Robinson mission 2” has taught 1.2 million more to read and write. At the same time 770,000 other (young and not-so-young) Venezuelans have earned a general certificate of education. This has been achieved under the auspices of the “Ribas mission” named for a general of Venezuela’s revolutionary war, José Felix Ribas. The “Sucre mission” opened the doors of the university to half a million scholarship holders. Antonio José de Sucre was the Venezuelan marshal who led the revolutionary armies to victory against the Spanish in Ayacucho in 1824 before founding the state of Bolivia.

Health indicators throughout the country have improved thanks to the “misión Barrio Adentro” (“inside-the-neighborhood mission”). Initiated in 2003, this mission has brought to life a large network of “people’s hospitals” along with medical, dental and eye care centers dedicated to the poor. This network is complemented by the implementation of social and economic reforms, culture, communication and sport. Today, 17 million poor are taken care of by this “integral general medical” program. It is, of course, fully free. In one year, the results obtained are really impressive: most health indicators are already improving, especially infant mortality rate, now below 20 percent as compared to 35 percent in the Brazil.

These efforts are further articulated by the “Mercal mission,” a plan to combat hunger which guarantees food at low prices to 10 million persons in 11,000 shops, subsidized and managed by the state. The “maximum protection plan” as well as the “Bolivarian popular canteens” distribute food, health advice, cultural events and even lodging freely to half a million poor. In a few months, the revolution cut in half the number of people without access to drinking water.

Venezuela is also implementing the people’s food program, selling food at extremely low prices to reduce malnutrition. This program has created a network of “food houses” that distribute free food along with the “program of social care,” which offers personalized medical, dental and pediatric services, as well as legal assistance.
(snip/...)

http://briarpatchmagazine.com/news/?p=76

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are many more articles which will help you get a sense of what many of the DU'ers who pay attention to current events in Latin America already know.

[Arepa_Power]

13. Nice try?

It is a very researchable FACT that poverty AND extreme poverty actually increased during his tenure...that is before Chavez had the numbers "revised" to reflect the "neoliberal" way of measuring poverty. http://www.ine.gov.ve page five social report.

Yes, yes, the famed "missions"

I have seen the food personally that Chavez distributes, and it is of sub standard quality. Frijoles y arroz con cucaracha anyone? Not to mention that the artifical price limits have caused huge food cost inflations throughout the regular markets. El Jefe is such a idiot that he caps the price of the coffee beans, and then does not account for the roasters to pass on the cost...so the roasters are forced to operate at a loss. What is his solution? Threaten the coffee roasters with nationalization. Brilliant.

Of course this will be dismissed outright, but one of my family members has worked in concert with one of the missions...and it is very common for a "sign here to support chavez and you get your food" type of action.

Here's a thought, go there and see the poor still standing on the streets, the insane increase in inflation due to the food "subsidies". Contrary to the information that the VIO puts out.

Chavez needs to stop giving the wealth of Venezuela away to support his vision of a South American socialist empire and start concentrating on his own country and its poor and crumbling infrastructure (like the ONLY highway to the airport that is shutdown). But of course...everything is the fault of the imperialists, chavistas even blame the garbage in the streets on the CIA.

[Judi Lynn]

14. Yes, "nice try." Do you have anything English-speaking people

could use for reference to your charges?

Legitimate sources are accepted, IN ENGLISH.

[Arepa_Power]

16. here is a start for you

Please do not do the standard reply of "oooh biased source" you can easily research the stats and the fact that Chavez had the numbers revised to avoid embarassment. I refuse to hand hold to educate.

Learn spanish and you will find more.


Poverty figures undermine Chávez's success claims
The Oppenheimer Report | The Miami Herald

Mar. 31, 2005 | If the Bush administration is really serious about countering democratically elected Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chávez's claims that he is a champion of the poor and victim of a U.S. smear campaign, here's an idea -- broadcast the Venezuelan government's own poverty statistics.

Indeed, the latest poverty figures from Venezuela's official National Institute of Statistics -- buried in a mountain of figures deep in the bowels of its Internet site, www.ine.gov.ve -- contain the most damning condemnation of the Chávez government I have seen anywhere.

The figures, on Page 5 of the Institute's Social Report, show that poverty in Venezuela rose from 43 percent to 54 percent of the population during Chávez's first four years in office. And extreme poverty -- the percentage of the population that lives on less than $1 a day -- grew from 17 percent to 25 percent during the same period, the figures show.

These are stunning figures, not only because Chávez is going around Latin America proclaiming to be heading a ''Bolivarian revolution'' to help the poor, but also because the rise in poverty during his tenure has taken place at the very time when Venezuela has been benefiting from its greatest oil boom in recent history.

OIL PRICES WAY UP

Oil prices, on which Venezuela depends for about 80 percent of its foreign income, have soared from $8 a barrel when Chávez took office to $55 dollars a barrel nowadays.

Venezuelan officials say the institute's poverty figures were influenced by the massive opposition strikes that nearly shut down the country in late 2002 and 2003, the last year for which poverty figures have been published.

Still, the Venezuelan economy has since bounced back vigorously, and National Statistics Institute President Elias Eljuri Abraham was quoted recently by the daily El Universal as saying that, by the end of December 2004, poverty stood at 53 percent, and extreme poverty at 25 percent.

What is Chávez doing with Venezuela's oil windfall? Regardless of how much of that vanished in corruption or financial aid to radical leftist groups in Latin America, much of it went to buy votes in the 2004 referendum in Venezuela, provide subsidized oil to Cuba and purchase weapons around the world, economists say.

Just in recent weeks, the Venezuelan government has announced negotiations to buy 30 MiG-29 warplanes, 40 military helicopters and 100,000 AK-47 rifles from Russia, as well as 50 Super Tucano light attack planes from Brazil and 12 military transport aircraft and eight warships from Spain.

BILLIONS FOR WEAPONS

That amounts to arms purchases worth several billion dollars, which critics say will not only siphon money away from the Venezuelan poor, but threaten to trigger an arms race with neighboring countries that will ultimately hurt the poor throughout the region.

Amazingly, Chávez's claims to be a champion of Latin America's poor have remained largely unchallenged, in part because few know about Venezuela's own official poverty figures.

Until I was made aware of them this week, I had only seen opposition estimates -- suspicious of political bias -- which claim the country's poverty rate stands at 73 percent.

One can only wonder for how long Venezuela's National Statistics Institute will keep publishing poverty figures, or to what extent the Venezuelan media will be able to report on them. Under Venezuela's stringent new press laws passed March 16, it may soon be considered a crime to say that Chávez has created record numbers of poor in Venezuela.

Under the new laws, ''whoever offends, either by words or in writing, or shows disrespect for the president -- will be punished with six to 30 months in prison.'' Such broad definitions of ''disrespect'' will lead to widespread self-censorship in journalists' reports about Chávez and other government officials, the French advocacy group Reporters Without Borders stated this week.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Oppenheimer is a joke: a right-wing idiot serving a compromised

Cuban "exile-"pandering newspaper. He does OPINION, not news.

The Miami Herald has been published by a Cuban "exile" and has bowed and scraped, trying to feed the right-wing idiot Miami Mafia what it wants to hear, ever since Miami Cuban "exile" idiot Jorge Mas Canosa initiated a hate campaign against the paper when it dared to print news which didn't flatter the "exile" community:

TRYING TO SET
THE AGENDA IN MIAMI

Bashing the Herald is only part of Jose Mas Canosa's strategy

by Anne-Marie O'Connor
O'Connor, who is based in Miami, is Latin America and Caribbean correspondent for Cox Newspapers.
The Miami Herald usually takes and assumes the same positions as the Cuban government. But we must confess that they were once more discreet about it. Lately the distance between The Miami Herald and Fidel Castro has narrowed considerably. . . . Why must we consent to The Miami Herald and ElNuevo Herald continuing a destructive campaign full of hatred for the Cuban xile, when ultimately they live and eat, economically speaking, on our support?

Jorge Mas Canosa, chairman of the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation, in a local radio broadcast, aired on January 21 and printed in full in El Diario las Americas.

The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.

That was in January, but editors at the Herald still feel besieged. Foundations ads saying "I don't believe The Herald" in Spanish are appearing on Dade County buses. Lawrence has heard that foundation people are sounding out advertisers over whether they would support a boycott -- a troubling prospect in a recession.

Coverage of the foundation and Cuba is now carefully scrutinized, Herald reports say. "There has been a watershed in how we operate with Cuban questions," says one staffer, who requested anonymity. "Before the campaign, Cuba issues were dealt with in a routine way."
(snip/...)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:UQiB716-0NkJ:archives.cjr.org/year/92/3/miami.asp+Miami+Herald+%2B+feces&hl=en

[Arepa_Power]

21. Attack the source, but

You can easily run the CHAVEZ GOVERNMENT stat pages I originally referenced through babelfish dear.

Sorry, if you don't like the numbers that is too bad.

[anotherdrew]

100. you assume the old numbers were accurate? Does the US underreport poverty?

Would the last government of V. have done the same? Yes. Perhaps his numbers went up at first because the last counters were not giving an accurate figure... It's going to take time for the improvments to take hold, do you expet an overnight transition for millions of people? Give it time, an army of educated people with access to money to build and improve things sounds like it's being taught and starting to move out even now... in half a generation the changes could be amazing. The people there are currently willing to try, so we should let them and help them.

[IndianaGreen]

102. Nice link to home page of National Institute of Statistics, but...

do you have a specific link to a page in that website that supports your "pet theories" about Chavez.

There is a report about poverty in Venezuela based on a census taken in October and November 2001, but surely you couldn't be referring to something that old.

[Arepa_Power]

110. Here is a compartive one in English if you like

It has full references to the NIS documentation.

http://www.11abril.com/index/especiales/VenezuelaInANutshell.pdf

[IndianaGreen]

114. 11abril.com is a rightwing website that extols the likes of Dan Burton

Burton is an Indiana rightwinger that is in bed with the Miami Cubans.

[Arepa_Power]

116. Boogety Boogety, attack the source!

Again, the information is ALL REFERENCED TO THE CHAVEZ GOVERNMENTS OWN STATISTICS.

Try again.

[IndianaGreen]

119. Your source supported the lockdown of the oil industry on April 11

I do read Spanish!

¿Qué es 11Abril.com? - Venezuela
El 11 de Abril del año 2002 representó el día en que el pueblo de Caracas solicitó masivamente el respeto por la dignidad de los venezolanos. Es el día en que cientos de miles de venezolanos de todas las edades salieron a las calles a manifestar pacíficamente su apoyo a la lucha por la meritocracia de los trabajadores de PDVSA.

http://www.11abril.com/index.asp

The Economist prescribes “regime change” for Venezuela

By Mauricio Saavedra
5 May 2004


Chavez’s oil policy reform rested on four key initiatives. The first “re-established a predominant role for the executive branch in the design and implementation of oil policy, through the Ministry of Energy and Mining. This challenged vested interests in PDVSA, which had grown accustomed to taking the lead in defining oil policy in Venezuela,” reported the Calgary Herald on April 15, 2003.

In 2003, Chavez dismissed 18,000 middle- and high-level managers and technicians from PDVSA, after they shut down the oil industry for two months, causing losses of $10 billion from Venezuela’s international reserves (PDVSA accounts for 75 percent of export earnings and almost 50 percent of fiscal revenue).

Venezuela’s ruling elite had long used the company as a slush fund for distributing billions in kickbacks and sweetheart deals. The managers’ strike backed the privatisation of PDVSA, while opposing Chavez’s transfer of company funds into the government’s coffers and social programs. It also called for Venezuela to withdraw from the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC).

The Hydrocarbons Act, passed in November 2001, increased petroleum royalties from 16.7 percent to 30 percent and reserved a stake of more than 50 percent for the state in joint ventures. Billion of dollars from these funds are now earmarked for financing agrarian reforms and other social programs.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/testdir/may2004/vene-m05.shtml

[Flanker]

123. 11th April website is very convinient with their data

Notice they lack numbers for 2004 and 2005 for poverty, and the other thing that interests me is the HDI, not the subjective evaluation from the heritage foundation.

Venezuelan poverty is currently declining Government statistics show a drop to around 37% poverty and 13% extreme poverty. From the INE website pdf



As you can see the government defines extreme poverty as income below a food basket as of Dec 05: 387 thousand Bolivares ($180) a month. and poverty as income below twice that amount. If you were to follow the graph the blue line would be at around 24% and the yellow at 13$. That is also without taking into account subsidies like Mercal and Barrio Adentro.

From the polling firm Datos



As you can see the lowest social strata E has had its income grow considerably in the past two years, if you account for inflation it was 33$ in 2004 and 17% in 2005.

Minimum wage is currently at higher or similar levels with respect to the region with the exception of Chile.

HDI

This number has also gone up, the government registers a 0.800 mark as of now, considerably higher than in past years.

http://www.ine.gov.ve/indicadoressociales/idh.pdf

Placing it around 57 in the world wide ranking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

[IndianaGreen]

9. You have been watching way too much Faux News

and been listening to that draft dodging bubble butt Rush Limbaugh.

Change the channel!

[BlueCollar]

12. welcome to the DU

Having said that let me say that after spending a significant portion of my life in South America, Chavez appears to be doing the right thing with his country's wealth...unlike Bush*

[Arepa_Power]

15. Right thing?

In your opinion is giving away BILLIONS to Cuba in exchange for "doctors" that are poorly trained and have little experience beyond dispensing prescriptions and minor surgeries?

Public hospitals being forced to close due to lack of funding?

Buying BILLIONS in Argentinian debt that will not be paid back in 20-30 years if EVER?

Blatantly spending government funds on Chavista political movements?

Millions of dollars wasted on programs like the failed sugar plant?

The only major highway connecting the airport and seaport to the capital being shutdown due to negligence by the richest regime in venezuelan history?

Spending untold millions on weapons to defend against the impending invasion that noone can seem to find the proof of, besides of course the delusional paranoia of el jefe? ( Myself and Ted Koppel are still waiting for the proof of operation Balboa )

How about the planned natural gas pipeline that noone can seem to find the numbers to support building?

Oh, and don't forget that great quintupling of inflation, wheee!


The incredibly poor record of building public housing in comparison to previous regimes, who did not have the luxury of insanely high oil revenues?



The right thing? Helping the ranchos stay on the hills is not the right thing my friend.


Chavez has or had a grand opportunity to raise up the lower class and build the infrastructure of his country, but he has been too busy posturing and throwing billions around to be bothered.

[Judi Lynn]

17. Provide a legitimate source for each of your accusations.

No one sensible flings a cluster of charges out without a foundation for each one. DU'ers don't live on innuendo and rumor.

Try one at a time, and provide a source.

[Arepa_Power]

20. Google is your friend

Public hospitals being forced to close due to lack of funding?

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605675848/fulltext

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0221/p07s02-woam.html


Buying BILLIONS in Argentinian debt that will not be paid back in 20-30 years if EVER?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1896 there is the article, do the math

Blatantly spending government funds on Chavista political movements?

You do know what a Cadena is? Or would you like pictures of government police vehicles plastered with political ads for el jefe?

Millions of dollars wasted on programs like the failed sugar plant? --only 3 billion missing, viva la robolution!--

http://www.eluniversal.com/2006/01/15/pol_ava_15A655737.shtml run it through babelfish you whiner.


The only major highway connecting the airport and seaport to the capital being shutdown due to negligence by the richest regime in venezuelan history?

http://chavezfortheun.blogspot.com/2006/01/experience-with-war-like.html

Spending untold millions on weapons to defend against the impending invasion that noone can seem to find the proof of, besides of course the delusional paranoia of el jefe? ( Myself and Ted Koppel are still waiting for the proof of operation Balboa )

--You really need a reference for this one, or are you being purposefully obtuse?--

How about the planned natural gas pipeline that noone can seem to find the numbers to support building?

http://venezuelatoday.net/gustavocoronel.html

Oh, and don't forget that great quintupling of inflation, wheee!

--A very quick comparison of Bs. to dollars would easily tell you this--

The incredibly poor record of building public housing in comparison to previous regimes, who did not have the luxury of insanely high oil revenues?

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/venezuela/2006/01/16.html#a2693

The right thing? Helping the ranchos stay on the hills is not the right thing my friend.


Chavez has or had a grand opportunity to raise up the lower class and build the infrastructure of his country, but he has been too busy posturing and throwing billions around to be bothered.


Judi Lynn,

At this point you should do the typical chavista thing and either attack me personally or dismiss the information out of hand. Please surprise me and do otherwise.

[Judi Lynn]

23. Your first source is not available to "walk-in traffic." Subscription only

Argentina appears to be "good" for the loan. It also frees Argentina from the control of the international bank, which puts control back in the region, which is what Latin American countries are pursuing, appropriately.

You list some "opposition" sources, and anti-Chavez columnist Gustavo Coronel, who has been a recipient of U.S. funding for his anti-progressive material. The Salon blog is anti-Chavez, which DU'ers have seen before.

One of your sources is in Spanish. This is an English-speaking site. No, it's not my responsibility to drag off to try to run it through Babel.

There was a lot of flippancy, words like "whee," etc. in your post, so I didn't really read it very closely. It wasn't written with any degree of maturity.

Once again, address one topic at a time, and deal with it individually, the way a sensible person would. Most of us don't have endless hours to spend at one sitting here.

[Arepa_Power]

25. In other words

"I refuse to read your sources because I have deeemed unworthy"

Typical.

[manic expression]

43. Typical, indeed

your sources are bad. And please, would it hurt to get English sources? It can't be that hard.

This source proves that Sweden is a dictatorship:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/somali/news/story/2006/02/060223_iraq.shtml

:eyes:

[Bacchus39]

26. then provide sources that refute his sources, not your opinion

no double standards.

[Arepa_Power]

28. *sigh*

I have provided them, and typically they are deemed either biased or unworthy.

Or, god forbid, in spanish.

Try el nacional in english if you like.

The crucial information on poverty is easily accessible from the Venezuelan government website, if people are too lazy..or in my opinion too scared to look it up because it would fly in the face of their ego...so be it.

Edit: This was a response to judi

[Bacchus39]

29. yeah, I know. I agree with you

I have always had the same issue with her regarding Venezuela and Cuba. she asks for links then simply says oh he is right wing. or the newspaper is right wing.

but provides no sources of her own to refute those links. the recent Cuba thread has gone strangely silent after I was called a liar for saying Cubans can be imprisoned for leaving Cuba "illegally" and then provided a link.

[Ignis]

35. Pot, meet Kettle.

Welcome to DU, albeit briefly.

Please note that the DU body politic tends to be (justifiably, IMHO) a bit critical of hypocrites. You'd be well advised to change your tactics away from ad hominem attacks, no matter how passionately you may feel about the current policies of Hugo Chavez's government.

Exhibit A: "At this point you should do the typical chavista thing and either attack me personally or dismiss the information out of hand. Please surprise me and do otherwise."

Exhibit B: "...run it through babelfish you whiner" (emphasis mine)

My own guess is that Exhibit C will be a tombstone, but I would love to be surprised on this point. :)

Bon chance!

[manic expression]

40. From

the CSMonitor:

"At another Caracas hospital four patients died in one night last August after its oxygen supplies ran out."

Medical supplies run out in the US all the time. A lot of people would be alive had the hospitals had enough blood stored (in the US).

I find it funny that the article cites so many disappointed Venezuelans when you consider that Chavez won a fair election (observed and signed off by international observers). It is also funny when you see stuff like this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4502272.stm

So funny I could call it ridiculous...and I think I will.

One of their sources is "Veneconomia". I visited their site. The first thing I see?

"It is a secret to practically no one that the National Electoral Council’s unconstitutional performance has annihilated people’s right to freely elect those who are to govern them in Venezuela and that, as a result, a large segment of the population does not have faith or confidence in the electoral system..."
http://www.veneconomia.com/site/index.asp?idim=2

REAL fair and balanced! :eyes:

What's wrong with buying foreign debt?

Let's see what the Colonel has to say about Venezuela:

"...my concern is that..."
"Well, I smell rotten fish in connection with this gas line."

Some damning evidence you got there. I smell a bad article.

Here's a better source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4713404.stm

Seriously, I'm not very good at Spanish (I could get 1/4 of the gist of it, but that's all). Just quote some parts and translate them for us (if not the whole thing), so we can make a fair analysis. Also, your own source says 1.3 million USD.

Here's a different view on your last link's subject, even from an economically right-of-center source:

"...(Chavez) began to create the “missions”—emergency health, education and welfare programmes. The missions provide public services and subsidies to the poor. They are paid for out of a parallel budget, controlled directly by the president without going through the social ministries.

“Inside the Barrio” builds primary health posts, staffed by Cuban doctors. The “Robinson Mission” teaches people to read. “Mercal”, a fast-expanding network of shops and supermarkets, sells staple foods at a 40% discount, boosting the purchasing power of the minimum wage. There are more than a dozen other missions: the latest, named after Simón Bolívar's nanny, is intended to look after street children, drug addicts and the homeless.

Thanks largely to the ever-expanding oil windfall and a huge increase in public spending, the economy recovered strongly from the strike, growing 18% in 2004 and almost 10% last year. Given such growth, it would be remarkable if poverty had not fallen. And indeed it seems to have done. According to an estimate by the national statistics office, in 2005 poverty at last fell below its level of 1998."
http://www.economist.com/World/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=5526589

I would like to remind you that the strike was done in conjunction with a US-backed coup.

If Chavez' record is so "poor", why does he and his party continue to make gains in elections?

If you spent more time finding better sources than expecting to be surprised, it might help.

[Arepa_Power]

48. back and forth

"I would like to remind you that the strike was done in conjunction with a US-backed coup."

Can you be the one that FINALLY gives me a source to this? I have researched very thoroughly and the best I could find is that the CIA knew about the possibility of a coup but even the documents that eva golinger provided as proof even directly stated that the CIA would NOT support extraconstitutional means of removing Chavez. I am asking for a reference here, not an article with accusations.



"If Chavez' record is so "poor", why does he and his party continue to make gains in elections?"

Did you miss the last big election? Do you know what the registered voter turnout at BEST is estimated to be?

25%!!!!

Now lets do some math shall we?

2004 Recall Referendum - 90% registered voter turnout with supposedly 59% Chavez 40% opposition.... right? Of course we will never know because their was never a real manual audit done under the guidelines agreed to by the opposition and the OAS...oh and of course those paper receipts all magically burned up in a high rise fire a couple of weeks later...on a Sunday...with noone in the building.

2005 "Congressional" Elections, Chavez claims 10 million votes will go to his parties (he has two). The opposition boycotts the vote due to flagrantly unsecure electronic voting exposed on the very machines that were used in the previous referendum and the more recent municipal elections.

Result? At BEST an estimated 25% registered voter turnout. Opposition estimates put the number at 15-20%, and the Chavez CNE has yet to release the official results 12 weeks later.

Now...look at the above numbers...what happened to that missing 35% of Chavista voters in comparison to the recall? Does it not stand to reason that the "hugely popular" Chavez party should have at least got...what...HALF of the votes that his party got in the recall?

One must also consider that Chavez illegally kept polling stations open for HOURS and during those hours an estimated 1/3 of the total votes came during that time. Supposedly due to rain..let me tell you, I was in CARACAS that day, and rain was virtually non-existant.

Also, government workers were directly threatened with losing their jobs if they did not vote by Chavista members.

Something does not add up.

[manic expression]

61. Around and around....

It's pretty well known that it was backed by the US. The US declared support for the usurpers immediately after the coup.

"The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established....
Washington's involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html

"The United States, which had acknowledged the de facto Carmona government, did not condemn the coup until after Chávez had been restored to power."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1988213.stm

There isn't really a lack of information on this.

As an interesting note, the people who took over the government were not significantly punished by Chavez. How "authoritarian" of him...:eyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2011596.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2182097.stm

The last big election was observed internationally. The opposition pull-out was the choice of the opposition.

International observers (including Jimmy Carter, IIRC), signed off on the elections as legitimate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571350.stm

When the coup occured, who came out in Chavez' support? Oh, that's right, the people. Who do Chavez' policies help? That's right, the people. It's time to start seeing a pattern.

[Arepa_Power]

69. And?

"It's pretty well known that it was backed by the US. The US declared support for the usurpers immediately after the coup?"

Does not = US backed.

The rest of your sources have no actual proof, just accusations and innuendo. I am looking PROOF of a US backed coup. As I said, closest I have seen in Eva Golingers documents...but even those are contradicting.

"The last big election was observed internationally. The opposition pull-out was the choice of the opposition."

Yes...so why is Chavez threatening them with a presidential decree if they do it again? Why did he deem the OAS and EU as part of a right wing plot after they published their critical reports?

"International observers (including Jimmy Carter, IIRC), signed off on the elections as legitimate."

Yup, even when the agree upon rules of the audit process were repeatedly broken...Go Jimmah Go! I almost got to congratulate him last year when he was visiting Los Roques...strangely at the same time when Chavez made yet another claim that the US was planning an invasion.

Wierd huh? A foreign president claiming that the US is planning to invade while a former US president is spending a vacation at a posada in said country.

[manic expression]

85. Yes

it does equal US backed. Furthermore, I gave you reputable sources that explicitly say the US was very involved in the coup. Your pathetic denial changes nothing.

So, why did the OAS criticize the opposition for pulling out of the same elections?

"OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza criticized the withdrawal despite the National Electoral Council's agreement to the conditions opposition parties demanded (OAS press report)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_parliamentary_election%2C_2005

So now you are disagreeing with the observers? It's pretty cut and dry, the elections were endorsed by the observers.

"International observers in Venezuela have confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in a referendum on whether he should be removed from office....

The head of the Organization of American States, Cesar Gaviria, also said his monitors had not found 'any element of fraud'...."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571350.stm

..............

That's not really weird at all. What point are you trying to make, exactly? A former president can visit a country, and presidents can speak out against possible foreign interference.

[Flanker]

68. Official election results are here

http://cne.gov.ve/int_divulgacion_parlamentarias/index_principal.php

Wait people are waiting for is the final audit, but the above is as official as it gets.

Also they boycotted because they were staring defeat in the face, all polls showed it.

[1932]

107. "Boycotting" was the only way they could spin a lack of legitimacy.

And I think only fools would fall for it.

[1932]

106. Why is US turnout high in divisive years and low in years when people are

content?

Clinton vs Dole was a very low turnout year. Nixon v Kennedy, and both Bush races here high turnout years.

You think that democracy was working in the two Bush elections and that it wasn't in the Dole year?

Also, in the last election, there wasn't a single national race on any ticket. They were all local races. I will eat my computuer if you can find a community in the US with a better than 25% turnout when the ballot only has local races on it.

I will eat my computer if Venezuela ever does much better than 25% in these mid-term elections without a single national race or referendum on them.

[ronnie624]

127. Could you at least provide some excerpts

from your sources that might help illustrate your claims?

-"helping the ranchos stay on the hills..."
-"...he has been to busy posturing and throwing billions around to be bothered."
-"The incredibly poor record of building public housing in comparison to previous regimes..."
-"Buying BILLIONS in Argentinian debt that will not be paid back in 20-30 years if EVER?"

I found nothing in your sources to support any of these statements.

If the venezuelanalysis.com article was supposed to prove your accusation of Chavez "throwing billions around", it did nothing of the sort.

"Between 1980 and 2000, under the guidance of the IMF, the region saw an almost 8 fold decrease in economic growth over the previous 20 years, according to a study of the Washington-based Center for Economic and Policy Research." This quote, in fact, seems to negate much of your thesis.

The article clearly illustrates his commitment to helping his neighbors free themselves from enslavement to the IMF thus helping to solidify the leftist movement in the region. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Bacchus39]

30. Chavez's father detained in peasant uprising

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/02/23/en_pol_art_23A676279.shtml

[Arepa_Power]

32. PERO! CREO....

Translation for Judi: :)

But! I thought...


But I thought that Chavez was a resounding hit with the poor and indigent?

Maybe these are not really farmers but really CIA agents who are planning on a uprising?

Operacion Granja Super Secreto?

LOL

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

38. Not so much, it would be more like "pero, yo creí o yo pensé".

I mean I'm going by your translation here in which you used past tense. Also I assume you meant "Operacion Granja Super Secreta". I'm not writing this to be a dick but it didn't sound right to me when I read it.

[manic expression]

45. Wouldn't it be more like 'creia o pensaba'?

with an accent on the "i" in "creia".

Just asking.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

47. Back home we say it both ways. I actually meant to write all options. But

I got my boss hanging around to close to my desk. But you are correct.

Also found this online.

Verbos totalmente irregulares
ser/ir: fui, fuiste, fue, fuimos, fueron, fueron.

estar: estuve, estuviste, estuvo, estuvimos, estuvieron, estuvieron.

caer: caí, caíste, cayó, caímos, cayeron, cayeron.

creer: creí, creíste, creyó, creímos, creyeron, creyeron.

[manic expression]

63. Gracias por ayudando un gringo! n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. "Ayudar". No hay de que. Saludos.

:hi:

[manic expression]

42. translation

Chavez is popular with the people. Would you like to argue with the results of Venezuela's elections?

[Arepa_Power]

49. Yes so popular

That 75% of the registered voters ABSTAINED in the last election.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. What are the stats for previous midterm elections? n/t

[Arepa_Power]

58. Unknown

But in the last municipal elections the opposition also boycotted and the results were the same, 25% at BEST.


Ask yourself this...if Chavez is not worried about the opposition boycotting the vote, then why is he threatening a presidential decree to extend his reelection limits if the opposition boycotts again? Why did he attack the OAS and EU reports that criticized the entire process?

Occams razor would probably state that it is because he operates under the guise of being "popular" and the pictures of empty polling stations do not look good to the international community.

[Flanker]

64. The oposition did not boycott the municipal elections

And abstention was around 70% Had they done so Rosales would not be Governor of Zulia would he?

The referendum was for that they would not call for a boycott despite the landslide staring them in the face, a referendum might be close to 50-50.

[Judi Lynn]

98. They turned a looming public defeat into a political advantage.

It was sneaky, underhanded, totally dishonest. They didn't want to get thumped publicly.

Concerning the reliability of the voting machines their administration chose, DU'er Peace Patriot has followed this subject very closely. I remember when the opposition idiots started trying to float the "dirty machines" a long time ago. There's a big difference between the ones used in Venezuela and the easily manipulated ones here: "open source programming." Here's a recent post by DU'er Peace Patriot:

Venezuela has electronic voting but it's OPEN SOURCE programming--
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 12:05 PM by Peace Patriot
that is, anyone may review how the votes are tabulated--unlike the United States of America, where Bushite companies own and control the election system using "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY software.

Venezuelan elections are monitored by hundreds of international election monitors from the EU, the OAS, and the Carter Center, and have time and again been declared aboveboard and legitimate, as this one has been (see below). Can we say the same? International election monitors were not permitted to verify the 2004 election here! They were thrown out.

The opposition there is like our wingers here. They will claim ANYTHING, no matter how irrational and insupportable it is. And northern corporate news monopolies play along with this crap, by publishing sentences like the following, WITHOUT VETTING THE OPPOSITION'S CLAIMS: "Main opposition parties boycotted the poll after accusing electoral authorities of favoring the populist leader and manipulating electronic voting machines."

Where is there ANY evidence that the Venezeulan government is "manipulating electronic voting machines"? There is no evidence of this at all. ALL evidence points very strongly in the other direction--repeatedly verified by hundreds of objective observers. But they just let this claim stand, without any effort at factual information or truth. They also blow the low turnout out of proportion, failing to give any reference point. (It was actually a BETTER voter turnout than previous by-elections, despite severe weather. See below.)
(snip)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1966067#1966885

[manic expression]

54. Right...

they were so disgusted with the internationally-observed elections that they didn't vote...even though they were the majority. Makes perfect sense.... :eyes:

[Arepa_Power]

59. Are you being purposefully obtuse?

The opposition boycotted the vote because one average techie found that names could easily be matched up to the votes, contrary to what the Chavez controlled CNE stated. Said techie demonstrated this IN FRONT OF THE EU AND OAS OBSERVERS.


Did you miss the OAS and EU reports on the whole event?

[manic expression]

65. Missing something?

"Observers endorse Venezuela vote"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571350.stm

(on edit, I have to go for awhile now, so don't expect the replies to come so quickly)

[Arepa_Power]

83. You are confused.

I was referencing the recent 2005 assembly elections.

[manic expression]

84. Not really

I was speaking generally, showing that Chavez and his party have been making gains in fair elections.

However, if you want to be specific, be my guest.

The OAS was involved in 2005, and also had something to say that is quite relevant:

"OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza criticized the withdrawal despite the National Electoral Council's agreement to the conditions opposition parties demanded (OAS press report)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_parliamentary_election%2C_2005

[Arepa_Power]

86. Would you like the actual report?

http://www.ddpa.oas.org/press/2005/dec/press_12_06_05_eng.htm

Some particularly interesting parts:

" The Mission laments the public statements made by a high-level leader of the governing party that sought to coerce the participation of government employees. This statement was denounced by all sectors of the country."

" During the election campaign, the Mission observed proselytizing activities on the part of high-level public officials, at the national as well as the state and municipal levesl, and an absence of strict mechanisms to control the use of public and private resources for political and electoral ends."

All in all..the report is pretty tame really.

So why did Chavez attack the OAS and EU accusing them of a right wing plot after the report?

Again, things just don't add up.

[Flanker]

89. To get them to put down their cards

Notice how Insulza spoke out forcefully that the elections were fair a few days later?

Most of the negatives does not detract from the end result.

[Flanker]

66. The fingerprint machines were removed.

Ergo the correlation (not exact match mind you) was removed from being likely.

Really you are all over the place and exposing your flank due to weak arguments :)

[Arepa_Power]

73. Yup

Good to see someone who is familiar with the happenings.


Gee, call me silly. But with the tascon list and maisanta program being exposed..(those weren't even fingerprint machines, they were signatures of the recall referendum petition) wouldn't you think that people just might be a wee bit apprehensive about voting?

Can you really blame people for boycotting?

[Flanker]

76. Tascon list

Was for the signature drives and Maisanta is just a beefed up version of the former.

So no unless the opo is doing a signature drive I fail to see how it would scare anyone in a secret vote.

[Arepa_Power]

80. Hypothetical

Can you blame them?

Before the recall referendum it was found that PDVSA had a 40% stake in the voting machine company.....

Then the referendum and the tascon list.

Then the condensed maisanta program.

Machines are used in the contested recall referendum. CNE assures secrecy.

Machines are used in the municipal elections. CNE assures secrecy.

Machines are found to be easily hacked by an average tech in front of international observers...and up until that point...CNE assures secrecy.

I don't know about you, but I cannot blame them for boycotting.

But if it was just the opposition boycotting...where are Chavez' "ten million" votes?

[Flanker]

87. Few things wrong

"Machines are found to be easily hacked by an average tech in front of international observers...and up until that point...CNE assures secrecy."

They were not easily hacked, as a matter of fact they needed multiple encryption keys (some in the hands of the OAS) to get some sort of correlation (there is only one fingerprint machine per 3 tables I believe.

Even so the machines were removed they still abstained and no one bought it.

The elections are one of the cleanest in the world IMHO, the magnifying glass is 100x and they still only find technicalities :)

[Arepa_Power]

88. can you reference?

I am not familiar with the encryption key information.

[Flanker]

91. Sure it was in the EU report

Apperantly it was the political parties and the CNE that had the keys to get the data.

" The discovery of a fault with the promming of the voting machines, with the resulting remote possibility of violating the secrecy of the vote, was handled by the CNE in an oppertune and adquate manner. The possibility of violating the secrecy of the vote was examined by the EU experts, who considered it remote, and certainly more complicated that in conventional elections. The violating of voting secrecy only could have occured if the sequence of the identity of the voters and the sequence of the actual votes could be reconstructed. Such a reconstruction would have implied that a qualified user had access to three different sources of information. Those sources would be the memory of the voting machines, the memory of the fingerprint reading machines, and the complete key to the code for encryption (which was devided between the political parties and the CNE) used by the system to protect the voting data. The elmination of the fingerprint reading machines was an important measure to re-establish confidence of the political parties. As a consequence it was surprising to the EU that the principal political parties of the opposition withdrew from the elections without giving new reasons."

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/12/observers-put-tombstone-on-top-of.html

[Bacchus39]

67. Chavez was elected, and likely will be elected again

it doesn't mean people have to like him. I don't. Bush was apparently elected too, at least once anyway.

[Flanker]

74. Try 3 times

If you count the RR, Uribe is up for re-election no? no referendum either ;)

[Bacchus39]

75. no, I wouldn't count that since there was no opponent

only Chavez himself.

yes, Uribe is up for reelection and will be elected just like Chavez.

[Flanker]

77. You are assuming there is an oponent now

:popcorn: Even if they don't boycott the closest candidate is so far away they might not even break the 30% mark in a two way election.

[Bacchus39]

78. yes, the opposition is in disarray and Chavez will likely win

by a fairly large if not huge margin. However, I certainly hope the opposition fields a candidate. it is unfair to the Venezuelans not to have the opportunity vote on alternatives. I mean that is democracy.

still, the opposition has every right to oppose Chavez just like I have every right to dislike him.

[Arepa_Power]

81. Sadly I agree

The opposition is fragmented.

Their lack of consolidation will be their downfall.

Then again, I don't think Chavez would even leave even if he by some miracle lost.

I mean the guy did say to the effect "Even if they get 90% I will not leave" in the lead up to the recall referendum.

[manic expression]

92. Sure,

but the fact that the elections were endorsed by international observers (including Jimmy Carter) suggests that they do.

Moreover, the fact that the people took to the streets in support of Chavez during the coup strongly suggests that they do as well.

[anotherdrew]

140. probably just an oversight that will be corrected.

The roads will be fixed.

[1932]

101. Isn't Chavez's father a member of a right wing Christian party?

I think he was elected to congress in '98 as a member of Chavez's party at the time, but he switched to a RW party when he ran for the office he has.

He's much more conservative than Chavez. (He was a friend of the president who pardoned Chavez growing up, incidentally, who was a member of, IIRC, the Christian Democratic party).

If the peasants rebelled against Chavez' the father's party, they were rebelling against a conservative local government.

[Arepa_Power]

108. WHOA

Hold on there, the spin is .......too....great....

[1932]

109. Spin? Tell me. What party does his father belong to?

Do you not know?

And if that's spin, what have you been doing in this thread?

[Arepa_Power]

111. Who cares?

Protesting is one thing, kidnapping or holding a sitting presidents relatives during that protest is an entirely different thing.

There is obviously an INTENT, especially since the poor have been protesting more and more against Chavez recently.

The robolution is always tomorrow! lol!

[1932]

112. What party does his father belong to?

It might tell us something about the policies the people were uspet with.

AS for the poor "rebolting" -- my bet would be that the RW is trying a new tack: encourage resentment among poor using false flag operations. That would be my first guess, and I'd want a lot of facts before I was convinced that poor people in Venezueal really preferred Washington Consensus neoliberal economics.

[Arepa_Power]

115. Or a simpler explanation

That there is no conspiracy, and the poor are genuinely ticked off that they have been told to basically shut up.

Have you ever even been to Venezuela? I suggest you go there and see for yourself, I have.

[1932]

118. what party?

[Flanker]

121. He is allied with his son

nm

[IndianaGreen]

120. Two of our comrades went to Venezuela last year to the Youth Congress

They were very impressed with the great strides the Venezuelan people have made in building the new Bolivarian society, in one case a factory shutdown by the owners was reopened by the workers and is now producing school uniforms for the poor. They also have a communal garden and a clinic.

[Ignis]

148. It's a lovely place.

I particularly love the WIND AND SEA of beautiful Venezuela. They're so beautiful that they float all the way up here to DU...often.

[Judi Lynn]

152. So often, it seems you can't keep them away. n/t

[Ignis]

37. You've piqued my curiousity.

In your opinion is giving away BILLIONS to Cuba in exchange for "doctors" that are poorly trained and have little experience beyond dispensing prescriptions and minor surgeries?

This is the first time I've ever heard a progressive (yes, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) criticize the skill and training of Cuba's doctors. Normally even reactionary critics of Cuba temper their arguments with a "yeah, but" in regards to Cuba's outstanding literacy, higher education, and medical training--especially comparative to the rest of Latin America.

I don't suppose you have an appropriate source--that is, one by and for the medical community--source for this claim? If so, I'd be delighted to see it. Thanks.

[manic expression]

46. Same here

The fact is that Cuban doctors are very well trained. I suspect he won't have an appropriate source because no one does.

More delusion.

[killbotfactory]

141. The myth that Cuba's doctors are well trained comes from pro-commie groups

You know, like the World Bank, and Harvard.

:sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

143. Right! I've seen their "leftie" ravings about Cuba's amazing achievement

in longevity, in very, very low incidence of infant mortality, in preventative treatment, even medical research breakthroughs, too. Shameful!

[Ignis]

150. Well, Arepa_Power, where's your source on this? (NT)

[1932]

104. Cuba gave Venezuela a million dollars worth of books during the strike

for free. That's a real number. $1million. It's not some invented "one billion." That strike left Venezuela with no money. (Because of the actions of your previous government and the low oil taxes and Chicago School foreign loans, Venezuela was barley breaking even before the strike, and had no money during the oil strike.)

Castro gave Venezuela 1 million dollars worth of readers. The result: vastly increased literacy. According to Amartya Sen, the measure of progress is health, education and democracy (I get the impression you think that's crap). So, the books guaranteed the first part. The cuban doctors the second part, and democracy -- well, Venezuela is obviously more democratic today than it was before 1998.

I can't believe the spin against Chavez is going to be that he didn't undo 70 years of crappy planning, and totally focussing on the oil sector, and abandoning the countryside, and building up a huge oligopoly in seven years (and really, it has only been the last three, since the strike, when Venezuela finally started making money to pay for infrastructure). Jeez, I guess the lesson is that politicians should never say that want to do the hard jobs.

By the way, do you think that Washington Consensus economics economics works?

[Arepa_Power]

113. Wow...a whole one million?

Let's see here....

Chavez is giving what...100,000 barrels to Cuba a DAY....

Dang, must be some pretty nice books and doctors.

I never said that the former regimes did not have their flaws, in fact i HAD high hopes for Chavez at first.

He had a grand opportunity and has squandered it. He still gives out sweet little bond deals to the super rich to keep them quiet.

I can only hope that I am wrong though, unlike most here I actually have family still living in Venezuela at all levels of the economic scale.

The arepa muzzle only quiets the poor for so long.

[1932]

117. Apparently, it was all they needed. Literacy is way up.

In 1974 the price of oil shot up and destroyed Jamaica's economcy. Have you seen the documentary Life and Debt. Do you know the consequence of that on Jamaica? It created a tremendous imbalance of political and economic power that turned Jamaica into an easy target for American corporations. The ramifications of a weak carribean spread out to all of the developing world. If Venezuela wants to save itself from victimhood, it also needs partner nations in the region. It makes total sense for the people of Venezuela that the people of Cuba (and of all the developing economies who participate in the cheap oil program in the region) do not become easy targets for much more powerful nations.

I am so sure that the only reason you are so passionate in your criticism is because you know this is true.

[BlueCollar]

124. "...my friend..."

a little patronizing of you isn't it?

Argentina, Brasil, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela and soon Mexico moving to the left side of the aisle, You fear the power of the people?

[Realityhack]

175. WTF are you babling about.

Chavez certainly seems to have done more for the poor in his country than anyone previously. Thats why the eliete were so ticked off and went running to the US to get rid of him for good. Luckely it failed.

[Realityhack]

176. BTW you do know...

that for a 1st world nation the US has a MASSIVE poverty problem and we spend more on our millitary than the rest of the world combined right?

[IndianaGreen]

8. The purpose of the militia is to protect the country against foreign...

aggression. Two million trained and armed civilians will give a US invading force more fits than the Iraqi insurgency has. No wonder the warmongers in the Pentagon are worried! They always expected to have an easy time killing civilians with gusto, but now those same civilians will be shooting back.

Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela! Death to American imperialism!

[Bacchus39]

70. auto defense forces don't have the most stellar reputation

thinking of Guatemala and Colombia.

[IndianaGreen]

103. Tell that to our Founding Fathers who believed in a people's militia

and enshrined that in the Second Amendment.

[Realityhack]

177. or our national gaurd...

[Rex]

10. After 2 or 3 failed coup attempts, can you expect anything less?

How much further will the BFEE push a man over the edge? We might be creating the next generation of brutal monsters. America, the dictator maker.

[ronnie624]

11. How DARE Venezuela equip themselves for defense

against aggressions from the behemoth to the north? Do they not know they are to prostrate themselves in submission to the United States of America?

[Judi Lynn]

19. Two-Thirds in Venezuela Would Vote for Chávez

Angus Reid Global Scan : Polls & Research
Two-Thirds in Venezuela Would Vote for Chávez
February 22, 2006

(Angus Reid Global Scan) – Many adults in Venezuela would give their president a new term in office, according to a poll by North American Opinion Research Inc. released by EFE. 66 per cent of respondents would vote for Hugo Chávez in this year’s election.

Julio Andrés Borges of Justice First (PJ) is a distant second with four per cent. Support for other possible contenders reaches a combined 13 cent, and 21 per cent of respondents would either not vote or remain undecided. The next presidential election is scheduled for Dec. 3.

Chávez has been in office since February 1999. In July 2000, he was elected to a six-year term with 59.5 per cent of all cast ballots. In August 2004, Chávez won a referendum on his tenure with 59 per cent of the vote. The special election was called after opposition organizations in Venezuela gathered 2.5 million signatures to force a recall ballot.

Venezuelan voters renewed their National Assembly on Dec. 4, 2005. The pro-Chávez Fifth Republic Movement (MVR) secured 114 of the 167 seats at stake. Five opposition parties—Democratic Action (AD), the Social Christian Party (Copei), Project Venezuela (Proven), Justice First (PJ) and New Time (UNP)—boycotted the election, which saw a turnout of less than 25 per cent.
(snip/...)

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/10961

[Arepa_Power]

22. BWAHAHAHAHAA

Dearie,

Do yourself a favor and google north american opinion research inc.

Ask yourself this question, if they are so North American, why is there no references to them doing polling outside of the political process of Venezuela? Why is a

Good lord, you have swallowed the Chavez hook line and sinker.

http://www.vcrisis.com/?content=letters/200602180822


EDUCATE YOURSELF

from the article:

"As it turns out NAOR was registered on 03/02/2004 by Alirio Valbuena (FEI Number 201163145). Kaysa Makarem appears to be NAOR's secretary, the company operates from address 1549 NE 123 ST, NORTH MIAMI FL 33161. Kaysa Makarem, presumably with his brother Julio Makaren (note different ending in last names), are the registered officers of PETROTULSA R.L. CORP., which operates from the very same address 1549 NE 123 ST, NORTH MIAMI FL 33161.

Alexander's Gas & Oil Connections has an entry dated 28-01-02 entitled "Petrotulsa plans oil refinery"

28-01-02 Petrotulsa, a Venezuela private oil company with Swiss-based engineering company ABB, is planning to build a $ 2 bn oil refinery capable of processing 130,000 bpd. Petrotulsa's president Ricardo Valbuena said that the Swiss-based engineering company ABB has signed a letter of intent to that effect.

Interestingly the company was formed, according to the Florida register, on 11/18/2003. Further the name Ricardo Valbuena is not mentioned in the company's entry, as far as the Florida register is concerned."

[Judi Lynn]

24. VCrisis is a strictly anti-Chavez, opposition source. Not interested. n/t

[Arepa_Power]

27. Like talking to a tree

You ARE being purposefully obtuse.

It is simply really, do the google search on NAOR, do the search on the information I provided.

But you won't, because you know that it would shatter your ego.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

39. I myself have no problem with people's sources. I'm sure my

friend Judy can speak for herself. It all seems relative to me. Some sources can be legitimately viewed as pro Chavez. But then again the paper of record in the US the NYT (I use that as an example), now seems to have the credibility of Sammy The Bull.

You see the problem with that vcrisis site is that. It is run by a frothing at the mouth Freeper (he actually posts there) named Aleksander Boyd who certainly has no more credibility on Venezuela than any of us do. Some of us have a problem with sources edited by people who hate everything DU stands for.

Of the things you mentioned. the bridge to the airport is a definitely a major fuck up. It should be criticized. Of course no previous administration gave a shit about it and they very well knew what would happen.

Now if you expect 80 years of major corruption and total disregard for the poor to change overnight. Then you probably had more expectations for Mr Chavez than anybody I have ever talked to. These things take time.

[Arepa_Power]

41. Not quite

1. The statistics that Judy originally questioned are available in the first VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT link which she dismissed because it was in spanish, upon giving her a corresponding link in english she then attacked the source. To each their own, but to me...that is just plain illogical.


2. Yes, of course vcrisis is bias, just like venezuelanalysis and aporrea. But, he does source most of his writings, the NAOR subject is heavily researched and easily verifiable. Although it seems that google is no longer listing vcrisis on their news section strangely.


3. Yes, previous administrations knew about the impending problem of the bridge. But the previous admin had already started (one of many reviews) an engineering review of the problem which was cancelled when Chavez took over.

Chavez has been in power for seven years, with nearly complete control over all sectors and he has accomplished little except handouts to BOTH the rich and the poor in order to keep them semi pacified as he consolidates his power. All with record high oil revenue and complete control over it.

I had some hope for Chavez when he first came into power, even with the initial reservations due to the fact that he himself was a former coupster, but now?

Sorry, but it is my opinion that there is no future with Chavez. Hopefully, if he ever leaves office, some of the social programs that he put into place to help the poor do stay in place, but are expanded to include true education and help, not this faux socialism which is teetering on the edge of a full blown communist/militaristic dictatorship.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

44. A militaristic dictatorship in which 90 something% of the press

criticizes, insults and even ridicules the dictator? I don't think so. To compare this asshole right wing liar from vcrisis to venanalysis is just as ridiculous. Freepers are liars by nature. Hey even (D)ann Coulter sources her work. She's still a liar and a propagandist.

[Arepa_Power]

51. Did you not get the memo?

Are you not familiar with the gag law?

Yes the media is critical of Chavez, but let us not pretend that he hasn't taken steps to directly curb freedom of the press.

Just take a look at the Daniel Anderson case, the press found contrary information on a star witness and Chavez threatened them with shutdown if they printed it.

You are cherry picking my posts.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

55. No, but I'm familiar with what some have compared to our own

FCC up here. Again if he's such a dictator. Where a re the gulags? Talk about cherry picking. It's one thing to think the guy is shit it's another to exaggerate.

The media in Venezuela is completely biased and openly lied during the coup. They also encourage open revolt against the govt. What would happen here if the media did it against a repug or dem president? Didn't you get that other memo?

I've seen venezuelans on camera saying "if JFK could be taken out, what's so hard about doing it to this guy. It only takes a bullet." (also a venzuelan friend of mine says it all the time. it must be a popular phrase among the opp) If I said that here. Shiiiiit forgeddaboutit.

[Arepa_Power]

60. hmmm

"The media in Venezuela is completely biased and openly lied during the coup. They also encourage open revolt against the govt. What would happen here if the media did it against a repug or dem president? Didn't you get that other memo?"

I surely hope that you not referencing the movie the revolution will not be televised for this statement.

I hope not...you do realize that the producers of this film were found to have edited out footage showing people people being shot at from the bridge?

If you are unfamiliar I can provide links to pictures.

[Flanker]

72. Please do

Show the pictures showing the people on the bridge shooting people below, all venezuelans would love to see that pic :)

[Arepa_Power]

90. Bridge scene

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2005/08/18.html

Check out the famous bridge scene.

[Flanker]

93. Again evidence of people being shot at from the bridge please

Not if there was a march or not under the bridge, I personally have never seen the movie, but what I want is incriminating evidence not debunking a documentary.

[Arepa_Power]

94. I suggest you watch TRWNBT

All will be clear then.

[Flanker]

95. I really have no interest but I will watch it if available

That said you used a red herring, he said the media was outrageous you then moved the discussion about the documentary, neither that, or the pictures linked disproves his comment, the media was outrageous but today it has regained some responsability, if that is the fault of "self-censorship" then so be it.

[Solon]

137. The documentary is very informative actually...

They showed the anti-Chavez media showing a Pro-Chavez protester shooting a gun on a bridge, the funny thing though, is that they were claiming that he was firing on an Anti-Chavez crowd, then the documentary showed another angle of the bridge. It passed over another street, an EMPTY street, with Caracas police on one end firing at the Pro-Chavez crowd without discrimination. Just a matter of record, the Mayor of Caracas was a member of the opposition, and in the day after the coup, suppressed all Pro-Chavez people, violently. Also, during the protest there were snipers on the roofs of buildings surrounding the presidential palace. Considering who was practically in charge outside the presidential palace right before the coup, the opposition, you can imagine who those snipers were.

[killbotfactory]

163. It was a standard bullshit coup attempt

The anti-Chavez protestors were told to march towards a pro-Chavez rally, despite the government warning not to because it might cause trouble. When the anti-Chavez protestors got close enough, snipers fired on both sides, killing a few people. That gave the coup-plotters the justification for their actions, and with the help of clever editing from the media, they tried to overthrow the government. The next day the coup-plotters and tv stations patted each other on the back over what they thought they pulled off.

It's similar to what we did in countries like Guatemala and Iran.

The basic formula being: Disrupt the government by staging strikes, or buying mobs or anti-government protestors to stir shit up. Use the media to spread anti-government propaganda. Send in the clowns.

The use of the media to spread false propaganda had an influence on Che Gueverra's attitude towards the free press, since he was right in the middle of it at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBSUCCESS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chile#1970.E2.80.931973

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

79. TV personalities were yucking it up on the air

with some of the coup plotters talking about how they had to make sure Chavez (I guess he was supposed to go to Costa Rica or something) was still in the country for their little plan to work. Did I dream that or did they edit that that out of context? The private channels also lied about the whereabouts of Carmona and those others long after they fled Miraflores. Did I also imagine the dissolution of the ombudsman, national assembly, the constitution etc? Maybe that was also edited out of context as well. If you're going to defend the one day fascist government they put in place there then we're definitely not going to get anywhere.

Like my boy Fez says "Good day to you........I said good day!"

[1932]

105. Oh that is not true. Nobody except rabid deniers who want to ignore

every other piece of incriminating evidence against the media, the coup plotters and the US State Department in that movie, make the claim that the people on the bridge were responsible for the killings by the snipers at the top of the buildings. And the only reason they do that -- which is essentially a criticism of the fact that documentary films have any editing at all in them -- is to destract people from the harsh truths in that film.

[manic expression]

50. Quite

"Although it seems that google is no longer listing vcrisis on their news section strangely."

Not strange at all.

Unlike previous administrations, Chavez has implemented programs to help the poor. Poverty is now dropping, health centers and schools are helping the people and more.

On the subject of the bridge, I would like to see a link that verifies the canceling of the review.

Chavez has NOT had control of all sectors. To say as much is plain wrong. The private sector has been uncooperative at almost every turn, not the least of which was a general strike. Companies recently started hoarding coffee products because they disagreed with Chavez, effectively cutting the people off. Chavez was, coincidentally, siding with protesting workers on the matter.

There is quite a future with Chavez. He has been elected by the people in fair elections (hardly a dictatorship), and change has come of it. Sure, it didn't happen overnight, but what does? Positive changes are occuring in Venezuela, and hopefully Uncle Sam will keep his hands off this time (as opposed to Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Cuba...).

Some random reading:

"Mission Robinson (named for Bolivar's teacher) aims to eliminate illiteracy. In one barrio we heard a 45-year-old woman with 10 children brag about how the mission had taught her to read, beginning with how to hold a pencil. Mission Rivas aims to give everyone a high school education. We met six teenagers in Sonare who had dropped out of school but, under Rivas, were about to graduate from high school. Under Mission Sucre they were planning to go on to higher education and train to be teachers, an architect, a nurse and a doctor. Their pride was moving. A new Bolivarian University has been established to accommodate the rising number of college students....

Under a health mission, 20,000 Cuban doctors are serving in urban slums and in countryside clinics. We visited two of these. The Cubans are giving free care, including medicine, glasses and dental care, while training Venezuelans to take over. Mission Mercal distributes food to the poor at 30 percent of the market price through 2,000 government supermarkets around the country...."
http://www.globalexchange.org/tours/venezuelabattlebfreeman.html

There's more, and more will come in the future.

[Arepa_Power]

53. Coffee?

"Chavez has NOT had control of all sectors. To say as much is plain wrong. The private sector has been uncooperative at almost every turn, not the least of which was a general strike. Companies recently started hoarding coffee products because they disagreed with Chavez, effectively cutting the people off. Chavez was, coincidentally, siding with protesting workers on the matter."


If you call the roasters not being able to pass on the cost of roasting the beans due to Chavez' cap, and operating at a loss every day "hoarding" then you have a very strange definition of that word.

Yes, they "disagreed", they disagreed because the policies of Chavez were bankrupting them and they were unable to pay their workers, so do give me that garbage.

[manic expression]

62. Wake up and...

"Shortages in shops after producers hoard stocks"

"But most of the country's coffee producers, who buy, roast and grind the beans, refused to sell on the coffee yesterday, claiming their margins had been cut, and began hoarding thousands of sacks of unprocessed beans."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1682748,00.html

Truth is strange to some ears.

More from the same link:
"President Chávez, who maintains price controls on basic foodstuffs, raised the price of coffee beans by 100% last month after weeks of protests by coffee farmers."

They were disagreeing with Chavez because he sided with the farmers, so it's far from garbage.

[Flanker]

71. The Coffee deal was really bad policy

But it is fixed nowadays, the minister that allowed the guffaw was sacked recently.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1902

[Bacchus39]

96. wow, coming from THAT source you know it was a guffaw

hmmm...I wonder how Chavez expects to develop non-petroleum sectors of the price controls. why would anyone want to take up that enterprise??

please don't tell me sugar is under price controls too? I mean you can't tell me that coffee and sugar in Venezuela are expensive. an expresso was like 10 cents US if I remember correctly.

[Flanker]

97. The government has a goal to curb inflation

And develop the agriculture business, however latter is affected by some policies of the former and numbers are not available on its groth to my knowledge. That said emphasis on non-petroleum sector are Telecom, Manufacturing and construction all growing at a very high clip. Non-oil mining has been steady.

[Bacchus39]

31. very true, just as Venanalysis is pro-Chavez

if you refuse to recognize one than why do you recognize the other?

[Flanker]

34. feathers? maria? YGBK?

Welcome to DU :hi:

You guys wrote a lot of nasty stuff, NOAR has still not been disproven as anything objectionable, it is a good pollster relative to the rest from what I have observed, but you know that ;)

[StaggerLee]

33. Hey folks

Remember this one?

Here

[Ignis]

36. We should pin that bloody thing to the church door!

Or at least recycle it every time the "windandsea" folks create a new DU alias specifically to smear Chavez.

Personally, I'd like to see these folks save us all time and simply cite patrobertson.com as a source. ;)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

56. I just found this other thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=192622

[rman]

57. Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread

(copy)

Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=311462

Edited on Fri Feb-03-06 10:37 AM by JohnnyCougar
Holy balls. I haven't been on here much lately, but I am shocked at the right-wing extremist propaganda floating around here about Hugo Chavez. DU is usually my safe-haven from this sort of propaganda, but to see Chavez baselessly trashed on here by so many has made me feel compelled to post this. I will try and identify the top falsehoods repeated about Chavez, and give some appropriate context to them that lay these "tyrant" and "oppressor" claims to rest. And the fact that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are being cited against Chavez irritates me on two levels. Firstly, these organizations put out reports on every country, and are almost wholly negative. Amnesty International's profile on France is about as long as the one about Venezuela. But I highly doubt France is considered a tyranny by anyone. Secondly, the reports ignore the context of the situation happening in Venezuela.

First of all, there are a few articles I suggest people read to get an understanding of Chavez's peaceful revolution in what once was a corrupt and oppressive state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050411/parenti
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/01/feature3.shtml

Secondly, if you read these articles (which I really, really recommend you read, because they are highly informative, well written and interesting) you will realize how desperate of a state Venezuela was in before Chavez took power. 80% of the country was poor, and 44% or so were officially in poverty (to the point where they couldn't afford proper diets). The former government was a band of corrupt cronies that languished of the profits of oil sales, and said basically "fuck the poor."

Chavez was the leader of a failed coup attempt in 1992 against the then scumbag of a president. But the coup failed, and Chavez took full responsibility, admitted his failure, and served his time in jail. The president whom he attempted to overthrow was impeached a year later.

Chavez gained a lot of supporters attempting that coup, and his base continued to believe in him. In 1998, Hugo ran for President and won. The poverty-stricken, starving, illiterate "brown skinned" Venezuelans supported Chavez in a landslide victory. Since then, Hugo has been trying to clean up a government that had run for decades on massive corruption. The middle and upper class in Venezuela hated him because he was "brown" and because of his fight against the kleptocracy they had grown rich with. The Venezuelan court was highly corrupt. The parliament was worse. The plutocracy used car bombs, coups and violent protests to try and undermine Chavez's democratically elected government. The right-wing television stations would run anti-Chavez propaganda uninterrupted for days at a time, using racist cartoons and outright lies to brainwash the middle class and the upper class into thinking Chavez was a tyrant. Right-wing publications in the US picked up on this propaganda and of course reprinted it here. Obviously, it still circulates.

Chavez has taken control of the Citgo oil company and used parts of its profits to start schools and free healthcare clinics for Venezuela's massive poor. This totally angered the right wing. But since Chavez has become president, Venezuela's poor are much healthier, millions of people can now read, and he is attempting to diversify Venezuela's economy. The people there love him. He is the first leader that actually cared about him in forever.

Here are some of the most prominent right-wing attacks on Hugo Chavez debunked.

Chavez is attempting to censor political speech and take control of the Venezuelan media.

After the corrupt right-wing media in Venezuela inspired a coup, kidnapping and later a ridiculous attempt to recall Chavez, as well as violent protests, Chavez made an anti-slander law to curb the false propaganda the private media was spreading. While no one, to my knowledge has been arrested for violating this law, it has worked to curb some of the anti-Chavez propaganda and racist remarks made in the private Venezuelan media. When asked in October if Chavez would actually arrest anybody with this law, he responded: "I am not going to accuse anyone because they insult me, I don’t care if they call me names, I don’t care what they say about me. Generally I do as Don Qixote said, if the dogs are barking it’s because we are working." Furthermore, there are many opposition media outlets in Venezuela, and only one state-owned outlet. Chavez could shut the opposition channels down, but he doesn't. He just limits the racist, riot-causing propaganda they usually encourage.

Chavez is packing the Venezuelan courts with cronies

This is true. But that's fine with me. The former judges were highly corrupt, and some were organizers of the coup. The Venezuelan courts were known for their widespread corruption before Chavez. These courts let off people that kidnapped Chavez at gunpoint during the coup attempt.

Chavez is hurting the economy

According to a press release in mid-2005, Venezuela has the fastest-growing economy in Latin America, with growth rates in the first two quarters of 7.5% and 11.1%, respectively. It had a 17.8% growth rate in 2004. The non-oil sectors grew at a faster pace than the oil sector, rising 8.7% and 12.1% in the first two quarters of 2005. Venezuela's economy is growing at the second-fastest rate in the world, topped only by China. Furthermore, Chavez's programs are wiping out illiteracy and providing healthcare to the poor for the first time ever. He has also been the first President to really enforce Venezuela's tax laws. The rich were getting away with cheating on their taxes time and time again. He has considerably raised the minimum wage. So basically, Hugo is allowing private enterprise to flourish (despite requiring them to follow tax laws) and still using money to support the poor. What he has already done has been nothing but a victory for human rights in Venezuela. Millions upon millions of people now have hope and health that would have never had it otherwise. But despite this, false right-wing anti-Chavez propaganda continues to circulate around the echo chamber...even on DU.

What Chavez has done is inspire a popular revolution with little to no violence at all, completely overthrowing a horrendously corrupt government in Venezuela and liberating masses of nearly starving poor. Instead of leading by force like he did in 1992, this time the revolution worked.

But I can say one more thing for sure: If I were next to Hugo Chavez, I would hug him, too!

If you know of more false propaganda being spread about Chavez, please debunk it below! I probably missed some things.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

122. you have done a great job here! some DUers need to read this to understand

It's so surprising these days around here-
-you see swarms of people suckered in by the propaganda-
whether it's Chavez/ the environment/ animal rights/--
But reaize it is just a very few DUers who post under 5 or so "Alleternate Identities"-
-they even aswer their own posts to make it look like their RW views are the "norm" here--
Don't beieve it-

But posting threads with good sources totally debunks their bullshit.

Thanks-
-without posters like youreself DU could really be in trouble!!

[Judi Lynn]

125. It was just great reading that post. It covered so many important

points which have been twisted, and bent beyond recognition by DU visitors. There's a need for someone to encourage people to start looking for the answers themselves.

There's nothing like the truth, and the wiser, finer people who look for it, and find it.

[Judi Lynn]

126. Interesting news ""probably haven't heard here.

Venezuela Unions Reject US Pressure

Caracas, Feb 21 (Prensa Latina) Venezuelan unionists stated Tuesday the country will not repeat the Chilean pattern of using transport unionists to cause trouble and chaos as a pretext for a coup d´etat in the South American nation.

Marcela Maspero, coordinator of the National Workers Union, said Venezuelans will continue fighting for their recovery without falling "into the empire´s traps."

Grilled by Venezuela de Television on a call by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to back an alleged transport strike in this nation, Maspero said there is a generalized rejection to that position.

"This sector," he stated, "has the normal problems found in this kind of activity, but all transport workers have rejected the attempt of creating an atmosphere with violence and destabilization, which is Rice's aim."
(snip/...)

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B394FAB21-0171-4FB3-9E11-AEB08F849849%7D)&language=EN

[jkg4peace]

128. just back from Venezuela two weeks ago

Didn't hear many complaints about Chavez accept from right-wing cab drivers who think because they own their own cab they fall into the same class as Texaco. He had Jesus crap all over his car, too. Thought that all the cuban doctors were spys...and that Chavez is the antichrist. ho hum, another right-wing, Latin American cab driver...

But the people I met in the barrios couldn't say enough about Chavez. They are so organized and empowered and prepared for it to take a while -- they started the movement years ago, not Chavez, but they finally feel like they have a chance with him on their side.

It is true that Chavez does not have total control of the country, especially noted in Zulia where the oil wells are found along with an opposition governor who is pretty stingy about helping the poor there, especially the indigenous communities.

I went to visit indigenous communities who haven't received anything -- no Cuban doctors, no misions, no mercal, no food kitchens, nada. Not even a school. They didn't have running water, electricity, NOTHING. And even they say Viva Chavez! -- it is the transnational corporations and the corrupt local politicians that are our enemies. Right from the Wayuu mouths to your ears (via my little fingers on this keyboard).

I think the whole issue of the National Guard is to 1) create jobs for restless youth 2) ensure the loyalty of the military in case of future coup attempts ( so they outnumber the School of the Americas trained units who sided with the opposition last time) 3) help with local security in dangerous areas 4) help with rebuilding projects in the barrios 5) protect against foreign invasion (which they don't really expect -- more that the US will continue to fund local opposition groups, Cisnero's media, etc. which they are, of course, doing as we speak). Saw Eva Golinger in Venezuela (author of the Chavez Code) -- she says $9 million of our money is on its way right now.

Arepas dude -- go back to freeper land with your BS and lies. As for poverty increasing under Chavez, geeze, do you think it had anything to do with the fact that the oligarchs walked out of their jobs and shut the whole f@#&^*% place down -- ports, communications, oil -- which meant no food (since rich Venezuela landowners don't actually grow anything, but just hold the land for speculation for oil, coal, etc and Venezuela consequently has to import almost all of its food), no heat, no gas, no nothing! Damn right things got worse. Some people starved to death, which was their plan to get Chavez to capitulate. But Chavez stood strong, fired the bastards, brought in the military engineers to bring it back up and have had a booming business ever since. Those were rough times, no doubt, but even the poorest of the poor begged Chavez not to give up the fight.

Also, lies, lies, lies about the Cuban doctors. They are not specialists, but they are highly skilled to do the kind of level 1 basic health care services they are supposed to provide. There are level 2 clinics for more specialized cases, and government hospitals for more severe conditions. I visited one of the barrio adentro clinics that was being built by the whole community with their own hands. The doctor will live in the clinic and be available 24 hours a day to the people in the community. I met with one of the Directors of PDVSA's social programs in Caracas and he said his greatest regret was that they had to bring doctors in from Cuba to do this work -- not because there is a shortage of Venezuelan doctors (and not because they don't like the Cuban doctors), but because the Venezuelan doctors refused to serve the poor in the barrios. In the meantime, 10,000 new Venezuelan students are in Cuba being trained to replace them and more will go in the future.

Coffee was definitely cheap, and gas was about 10 cents a gallon. There is still a lot to reform in Venezuela, but the progress so far is quite impressive. Think about the centuries of corruption to overcome. The endogenous development model (from below and within) is much more powerful than if Chavez were to just go and implement state run programs all over the place. Each community organizes itself, sets its own priorities (if they want a co-op, a health clinic, education programs, cultural programs, sports, spiritual development support - its up to them) and they put forth their proposal and their plan to implement it themselves. They have to show they have the expertise and organziation to pull it off (which there is much training for) and they get credits for their own enterprises which they make happen for themselves. The pride and dedication is like nothing I ever saw in my 10 years working for so-called cutting edge social service programs in the US. It takes longer to implement this kind of development, but these programs have a real chance for success and permanency. They literally are helping themselves with the support of their government and their country's resources. The goal, unlike Cuba, is that these co-ops will become increasingly self sufficient and self sustaining over time. In Zulia, we visited a recreation center co-op that had a nice pool and place for families to come and have birthday parties and stuff like that. They had a water treatment area and a plant nursery, too. And they were learning the tourism business (as they were on the lake, which, in my mind, was not such an attractive tourist spot with its thousand oil wells and natural gas flares).

And, here is the best part of it all, IT IS ALMOST ALL WOMEN! Women, taking their neighborhoods into their own hands, and making them safe, clean, healthy places for their families. I met women who worked full time jobs, volunteered at the co-op, went to school on the weekends, and were raising kids. They were so jazzed up by the new opportunities they had, and so empowered! Viven las mujeres!

There is certainly lot of poverty in Venezuela, but there is so much hope and substantial progress, too. And I know some people say Chavez shouldn't be offering aid to other countries while his own people are so poor, but he knows that for Venezuela to survive, there needs to be Latin American unity and a space for a new economic order that operates on cooperation and humanitarian values, and not by the so-called "logic" of the market. If they just sit in their own little corner and try to do this all by themselves, they will be swallowed up by the same big fish in no time...

[Judi Lynn]

129. Stunning post, jkg4peace. You couldn't have been more helpful!

What an absolute treasure you've provided. It's worth reading again and again. Sure hope a lot of DU'ers will see it. I'm sure glad you stepped forward to write what you've experience first-hand in Venezuela.

I hope you'll get back there again from time to time and that somehow all their hard work will not be compromised by right-wing idiots who really would prefer to bring back the dark ages for the poor, and put ALL the power right back in the hands of the oligarchy.

This is one HUGE bright spot for the week at D.U. Thank you.

[Bacchus39]

130. it looks like it will be difficult to get there now, they banned flights

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/02/24/en_pol_art_24A676713.shtml

Colonel Francisco Plaz, president of the Venezuelan Civil Aviation Institute (INAC,) late Thursday said the flights of US firms Continental Airlines and Delta Airlines from Venezuela to the United States were eliminated, while American Airlines operations were restricted.

[Judi Lynn]

131. Venezuela says limits US airline flights

Venezuela says limits US airline flights
Reuters
Friday, February 24, 2006; 9:26 AM


CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela is limiting flights by U.S. carriers Delta Air Lines <DALRQ.PK>, Continental Airlines <CAL.N> and AMR Corp.'s <AMR.N> American Airlines after U.S. authorities failed to comply with aviation accords, officials and an industry group said on Friday.

The measure to reduce flights from U.S. airlines comes just weeks after Washington and Caracas expelled diplomats in an escalation of already tense relations between United States and the world's No. 5 oil exporter.

Venezuela's INAC aviation authority said in a statement the frequency of passenger and cargo flights would be reduced for some U.S. carriers from March 1, based "on the principles of equality, reciprocity and fair opportunities."

INAC did not name the airlines, but Roberto Pulido, president of the local Venezuelan airline association, said the measure would cancel some flight frequencies of Delta, American and Continental.

"The INAC has exhausted all conciliatory avenues with the U.S. aviation authorities... and has not been able to reestablish rights the bilateral accord gives to Venezuelan air carriers," the statement said.
(snip/...)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/24/AR2006022400582.html

[anotherdrew]

142. because we still ban their flights to the US, what else could they do?

What goes around comes around.

[Bacchus39]

146. their airlines don't comply with US safety standards

in order to fly into the US, airlines must comply with US aviation standards. Not an unreasonable policy at all I would argue.

[Flanker]

147. Not really no

That is a national ban, not an individualistic ban, private airlines are just as affected as public one. Essentially this is politics and commerce, safety is the least of the concerns

[Bacchus39]

149. this has been in place for 10 years. the Venezuelan airlines

aren't up to snuff.

[anotherdrew]

154. yes they are up to snuff. The FAA refuses to even look at reality.

Major improvements have been made, yet no review is even in process with the FAA. It stinks like a political decision.

[Bacchus39]

155. this was done pre-Chavez

here is some info from a blog. you can check into yourself. Venezuela really needs to upgrade its infrastructure with all that oil revenue. this is really inexcusable.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:ky50O3MtusIJ:vzlanpolitics.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_vzlanpolitics_archive.html+aeropostal+faa&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=16&lr=lang_en|lang_es

[anotherdrew]

160. the president can't do everything. weak minded fools in all governments

he's not perfect, there's always room for criticism and improvement, no doubt, but their's constructive and destructive... The blog you point me too seems like a very nice healthy sign of real people getting involved with issues of governance and politics. Good. The answer isn't to tear everything Hugo has done apart and put the rich in charge of everything again. Gradual improvement, step by step, things will get better.

[Bacchus39]

164. some of his initiatives have been good

the literacy campaign, the health program. although he should be using more Venezuelan doctors. why undercut your own services?

but he has taken some very heavy handed steps like stacking the Supreme Court with 12 additional judges so HIS agenda is not impeded. the restrictions on the press and demonstrations.

maybe he could spend more time overseeing the affairs of his country rather than hosting a game show??

[Flanker]

172. If Venezuela needs to upgrade its infrastructure

Why are US airlines unrestricted in their Air travel? I mean if saftety was the main concern then they would not let them fly to third world infrastructure. This is really blatant (but not solely re: Venezuela) gives US carriers all the power for the really profitable routes and limits national airlines.

[Bacchus39]

173. the US has high safety standards

the Caracas airport itself apparently is adequate.

did you know that a bridge from the airport to Caracas was deemed unsafe and closed. A 45 minute taxi ride now is apparently like 4.5 hours. Hugo Chavez's father, a department governor, was flown out of his city because peasants were protesting the poor infrastructure.

just because the infrastructure is declining overall apparently, doesn't mean its entirely insufficient. The subway system is still running as far as I know.

[Flanker]

174. There were multiple flights

Another one to Margarita from Puerto Rico was not allowed by Venezuela for the same reasons. Overall US companies can create new routes anywhere, the only reason other countries have tolerated CAT II double standard was for tourism money.

Yes I also know about the bridge, and the 'kidnapping' still fail to see how it is relevant to aviation.

[Solon]

133. Dude, you have no room to talk about Chavez...

considering that you are a fan of the Pro-US dictator and drug runner, Uribe, you really can't talk about shit.

[Bacchus39]

134. dictator???

how so?? I can say whatever I like about Chavez.

[Solon]

135. Hey, if the shoe fits...

You say the Chavez is a dictator, but he is not the one with the death squads, or supports drug runners while giving lip service to our DEA. With all the attacks on him, why the hell should you have any room to talk about how I talk about Uribe?

[Bacchus39]

136. I never said he was a dictator, you just made that up

go take a chill pill.

and I don't care what you say about Uribe. say anything you like, its all nonsense anyway.

[Solon]

139. I lost my star, so I can't refute that, maybe someone with the search...

function can do so in my stead. However, you do spread a lot of FUD about Chavez, that much is irrefutable, given that, I can do the same for Uribe as well. When was the last time a major drug lord was arrested? Oh yeah, that was in Venezuela, not Columbia, so let's see, when was the last time a major drug lord was arrested in Uribe's country again, no scratch that, they run it, so forget about arrests.

[Bacchus39]

144. several drug dealers have been arrested in Colombia

and what was that particular drug lord doing in Venezuela anyway??

[anotherdrew]

156. probably working on getting the bush family investments out of country.

but he was nabbed instead. ha ha. CIA's pet drug runners are all going to get rounded up or shot. just watch...

[Bacchus39]

158. yeah, that makes alot of sense

so you really don't think Venezuela has any problems at all? other countries have problems of course, but not Venezuela under Hugo.

[Solon]

161. No one has said that Venezuela is a friggen paradise...

It has problems, problems that predate Chavez, problems that, for many years, can be traced to the corruption and cronyism of those that are now out of federal government. To say that, even in the 9 years that he has had, that he can solve all those problems with the wave of his hand is asking for the impossible. Think about this, for over 30 years, the revenue from the state oil company was unaccounted for, billions of dollars, gone, for no better reason that to enrich those that were appointed to oversee it. Not to mention the crushing poverty that is being alleviated, or the corruption of the police and military, many of which are still in their positions, but then again, Chavez is no dictator, he has to work within the framework of the old power structure, that makes the job doubly difficult. Unless you want him to assume true dictatorial powers, then he might be able to do something with the wave of his hand, so to speak.

[anotherdrew]

162. of course they have problems, I won't dogpile with rightwingers tho

or right wing talking points. Most of the problems are internal maters and don't need to be aired round the world. Public opinion in the US isn't going to fix anything in V. but if turned against V. could well lead to ruining V.

[Solon]

159. Probably hoping to find allies in Venezuela...

Not that it helped, he's in jail isn't he? However, the case in Colombia is somewhat complex, for one, there are groups that support the government that fund themselves using drugs, and the reverse for the rebels. Both commit atrocities, both deal drugs, only one side is supported by the government, if only under the table. Uribe's hands are far from clean in this, being a "former" dealer himself, I doubt he prosecutes drug lords that support him with the zeal he does with the rebels, and even then, arrests are far from common, for the big guys at least.

[Judi Lynn]

138. Uribe has started attacking human rights advocates. Gets really reckless.

From a quick google grab:

In addition to physical threats, human rights activists face a hostile political climate, with little public support for human rights work in part attributable to President Uribe’s repeated public criticism of the human rights community. Important sectors of public opinion continue to view human rights activism as sympathetic to guerrilla violence and an obstacle to security efforts. Educating the public about the need to protect rights during times of internal crisis is one of the many challenging issues facing human rights organizations.

A dramatic recent verbal attack against human rights work came from President Uribe in a speech on September 10, 2003, during the promotion ceremony of the new commander of the Air Force. Following the release of a report critical of his national security policy, the president accused nongovernmental human rights organizations of being “writers and politicians…serving terrorism and cowardly hiding behind the human rights flag.”

His comments unleashed a firestorm of protest from NGOs and their international supporters, including a letter from U.S. congressional representatives. Even establishment figures largely supportive of President Uribe thought that he had gone too far, and editorials in leading papers criticized his “extremist” remarks.
(snip/...)

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/defenders/hrd_columbia/alert010405_mayorga.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colombia: Stop the abuse of justice system against Human Rights defenders

Justicia y Paz logo
© AI
The judicial system in Colombia is being misused to stigmatize and harass human rights defenders in order to prevent them from carrying out important human rights work.

Amnesty International has found that a number of human rights defenders have been detained or face detention on spurious criminal charges. Those under investigation or those already detained are frequently presented before the media as "subversive" or supporters of subversive groups. While defending themselves against these criminal charges, human rights defenders are often unable to carry out their work in defence of human rights.

A prominent example of the misuse of the judicial system involves accusations of "corruption" and "rebellion" against members of the Comisión Intereclesial de Justicia y Paz, Inter-ecclesiastical Justice and Peace Commission. Justice and Peace is a well-respected human rights NGO which documents and files legal complaints about human rights violations in a number of regions in the country.

Amnesty International is concerned that the charges against members of Justice and Peace are politically motivated in order to discredit and therefore silence the work of Justice and Peace and detract attention from serious cases of abuse exposed by the organization.
(snip/...)

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/col-280604-action-eng

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

September 29, 2003

Washington Finally Sees Uribe's True Colors

by Garry Leech

Finally, some Washington lawmakers have removed the blinders they have so eagerly worn during the past year while analyzing Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe. Last week 56 members of Congress sent a letter to the Colombian president stating their concerns about his plan to let right-wing paramilitaries escape justice by paying fines instead of going to prison. There were even reports that State Department officials wanted to put a little distance between the Bush administration and the now tarnished Uribe. As a result of his amnesty plan and his recent verbal assault against non-governmental organizations (NGOs), some Washington lawmakers have begun to question their support for Latin America's golden boy and the Western Hemisphere's most outspoken supporter of the Bush administration's invasion of Iraq. Meanwhile, critics of Uribe have been trying to focus attention on his authoritarian right-wing record since before he won the presidency last year, but Washington repeatedly turned a deaf ear.

Because Uribe won the Colombian presidency in the first round of voting with 53 percent of the vote, most politicians in Washington were willing to turn a blind eye to the tactics he utilized to fulfill his campaign promise to get tough on the country's leftist guerrillas. Washington looked the other way while Uribe spent the past twelve months involving the civilian population in the conflict by implementing a civilian informer network and drafting rural residents into his newly-created peasant army. Civilian informers became military targets in the eyes of the guerrillas because the rebels were the principal targets of the program. After all, the Colombian military already knew who and where their paramilitary allies were. Uribe drafted rural residents as peasant soldiers who would serve in their own villages where they would live at home instead of in military barracks. The mission of the peasant soldier was to use his family and friends as informers to learn about rebel activities in the region. Naturally, it wasn't long before guerrillas began targeting the families and friends of peasant soldiers.

Uribe also introduced programs that seriously undermined what little democracy exists in Colombia. Soon after assuming office, he implemented Rehabilitation and Consolidation Zones in two northern regions of the country that endowed military commanders with authority that superseded elected officials. Fortunately for Colombians living in the zones, the Constitutional Court ruled that many of the security measures that had been implemented by the military were unconstitutional, including the rounding up of some 1,000 people in the town of Saravena in Arauca department. The suspected subversives were detained in the local sports stadium where they were interrogated. The court also ruled that a census conducted by the army and police was unconstitutional, but it was too late for the people of Saravena as the authorities had already photographed and fingerprinted everyone in the town.
(snip/...)

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia168.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You just don't see any glowing reports on Uribe, when you think about it!

[Bacchus39]

145. and what about human rights under Chavez??

The Venezuelan government has announced plans for a widespread restructure of the nation’s law enforcement agencies following a series of scandals. Most shocking was the late June murder of three students from the University of Santa Maria. Two of the students, Erick Montenegro and Edgar Quintero, were killed by the Military Intelligence Directorate (DIM) and the third, Leonardo Gonzalez, was assassinated by an officer from the crime investigation squad (CICPC).

The students were shot in an operation that appeared to be retaliation for the death of a DIM officer less than a week before. Although they were not connected to the previous death, the three were pursued and gunned down — after allegedly failing to stop their cars. Guns were planted on the students, to create the impression that they had confronted the police.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/633/633p14.htm

by the way, Human Rights First should learn how to spell Colombia too.

[Judi Lynn]

151. You forgot to include the name of the article

Chavez targets police corruption

The untrained eye would read this as an indication Hugo Chavez did NOT order this operation, nor approve of it, and intended to do something about it.

From the article:

The incident is just the latest indication of the corruption and criminality that has plagued the Caracas metropolitan police force

As an ordinary person would be led to believe, Presidents don't ordinarily peer over the shoulders of the local mayors as they order their own city police forces, and don't become involved unless something goddawful happens. In this case, something did, and the federal government got involved.

Where's your point?

As for whether or not Human Rights First spelled "Colombia correctly," I simply don't care. It's not actually terribly important to me. Why is this relevant to anyone? We have more important things to think about, if we're busy.

[Bacchus39]

153. OK, so are you willing to give the same consideration to

other presidents you criticize like say Uribe??

Chavez has been in power what 9 years now. one of his three main campaign platforms was ending corruption. It has not happened.

[Judi Lynn]

166. I discussed one situation whch you had misrepresented.

There is no proper way to extend any part of that particular situation, the Caracas police under the control of a Caracas mayor, this one may be an opposition member, too, like Peña was, during the coup, to other Presidents pursuing their own national policy.

You can't get that kind of mileage from this story.

[Bacchus39]

167. Juan Barreto is a Chavez supporter

so Chavez is guiltless for bad things that happen in Venezuela??

[Judi Lynn]

168. I haven't had time to know his politics.

Of course what I said still stands. Mayors are responsible for their own police forces. Apparently some of this mayor's police are corrupt, and violent, and the federal gummint is going to oversee. Seems easy to grasp to me.

[Bacchus39]

169. yeah, just like the corruption in the department of agriculture

its not Chavez's fault, he's only the president.

[Judi Lynn]

170. Don't know what you're talking about, You'll have to excuse me.

I've gotta go. Feel free to discuss your department of agriculture corruption news with DU'ers, and provide links from good sources, IN ENGLISH.

[Bacchus39]

171. see post 71

I gotta go too.

[Judi Lynn]

132. Kick!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Ignis]

157. This is an important point:

There is still a lot to reform in Venezuela, but the progress so far is quite impressive. Think about the centuries of corruption to overcome. The endogenous development model (from below and within) is much more powerful than if Chavez were to just go and implement state run programs all over the place.

Very, very true. It's amazing to watch the anti-Chavez crowd fall over themselves to criticize the changes over the past few years in Venezuela, but it's not often that you'll see them offer suggestions to the contrary. Whether one loves or hates Chavez's style and rhetoric, it's nigh impossible to ignore the progress he's made in a few short years against centuries of corruption.

Thanks for the first-person perspective, jkg4peace. :)

[daleo]

165. They took a lesson from Iraq

Iran has probably taken the same lesson.