Bush insists outsourcing to India has its benefits

[Newsjock]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/13940642.htm

By Jim Puzzanghera
Mercury News Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON - To people in Silicon Valley and around the country concerned about the outsourcing of jobs to India, President Bush on Wednesday offered something to make the practice more palatable.

Pizza.

It's just one of the U.S. products that India's rapidly growing middle class is developing an appetite for, Bush said in a speech to the Asia Society as he prepares for a trip to India and Pakistan next month. While acknowledging the individual trauma of Americans who lose jobs when companies move operations abroad, Bush said India's economic growth is an overall plus for the U.S. economy.

``India's middle class is buying air-conditioners, kitchen appliances and washing machines, and a lot of them from American companies like GE and Whirlpool and Westinghouse. And that means their job base is growing here in the United States. Younger Indians are acquiring a taste for pizzas from Domino's, Pizza Hut,'' Bush said to laughs from the audience at a Washington hotel. ``Today, India's consumers associate American brands with quality and value, and this trade is creating opportunity at home.''

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[VegasWolf]

1. It's true!!! Many Amerikans will have a lot more time to go fishing. A

LOT more time.

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[central scrutinizer]

10. and they better keep those mercury-tainted fish

since that is probably all they will have to eat. If they get to river early enough, they can also claim a nice dry spot under the bridge to sleep for the night, too.

[radfringe]

54. yeah but too bad

that without a job - they won't be able to afford to order a pizza when the fish aren't biting

[BlueManDude]

65. more time for daytime TV

The soaps, Springer, Oprah, Montel whatever

[Crazy Dave]

2. Where are the factories?

:(

[Pirate Smile]

6. That was my first though. Where the hell are they making all those

GE products? I sure as hell bet it isn't the US.

[Crazy Dave]

9. On the plus side

At least if you live in India, you can just go over to your neighbor's house for customer service and there's no language barrier.

[Rene]

48. the technician

Subject: the technician


> Mujibar was trying to get a job in India.
> The Personnel Manager said, "Mujibar, you have passed all the tests,
> except one. Unless you pass it you cannot qualify for this job."
> Mujibar said, "I am ready."
> The manager said, "Make a sentence using the words Yellow, Pink and
> Green."
> Mujibar thought for a few minutes and said, "Mister manager, I am ready."
> The manager said, "Go ahead."
> Mujibar said, "The telephone goes green, green, green, and I pink it up,
> and say, 'Yellow, this is Mujibar.'"
>
> Mujibar now works as a technician at a call center ! for computer
> problems.
> No doubt you have spoken to him.

[saigon68]

60. Actually it was her

And when I asked her where she was from and where I was calling--- she said

"That is classified"

needless to say since she had her thumb up her ass, her "help and advice" was worthless.

[Blue_Tires]

98. Mexico, China, Taiwan, etc etc.

[YOY]

3. I love it...

"India's middle class is buying air-conditioners, kitchen appliances and washing machines"

While the American middle class is struggling to make ends meet. Asshole.

[Laelth]

14. Asshole, indeed.

Just in case we need a reminder ...

http://www.vandea.com/sounds/filmstrip_ahole2.swf

-Laelth

[trogdor]

31. Yeah, made by Gold Star and Samsung.

Or some company in China that puts the GE brand name on their stuff.

[Ben Ceremos]

50. From Haier Group,

Samsung and Videocon mostly. Whirlpool has opened factories in India, but I don't think that there are many Americans working at the plants in Karala state...Pizza delivery to India? I can't imagine how else the US market would benefit from the increase in demand for Dominoes and Pizza Hut( unless they ship frozen?). Bush is a fucking moron. I recall a top hedge fund manager (personal worth 350 million+ USD) I met who recalled his meeting with Bush post 9-11, he stated to me in the most unflattering terms that GWB was "...the stupidest motherfucker I ever met. He's going to ruin our country." 5 years later and the hedge fund is now worth 10 billion USD and the US economy has tanked under GWB (God's Wasteful Boyking). "Ken" you were right, as usual.



http://www.indiainfoline.com/nevi/codr.html

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060208/137/62emk.html

[Virginia Dare]

4. Indeed it does, for the corporate elitists..

not so good for the American worker

[hadrons]

5. great, we can work at the Domino's in New Delhi ...

asshat ... ``India's middle class is buying air-conditioners, kitchen appliances and washing machines, and a lot of them from American companies like GE and Whirlpool and Westinghouse....", moron, air-conditioners, kitchen appliances and washing machines manufactued in Mexico

[htuttle]

7. "Creating opportunity" for what at home, exactly?

I'd say, "Making pizzas", but they aren't about to make them here and ship them to India.

How does Bush think Pepsico raking in obscene profits will help Americans? I'm not even sure Pepsico pays US taxes anymore...

And all that other stuff he mentions: They don't really make any of that in the US anymore.

Whatta jackass...

[NewWaveChick1981]

8. So what happens when American quality and value are

ultimately outsourced to places like India and China? American workers don't have a chance in hell to produce "quality and value" if they don't have jobs. Smirky Chimpington's logic doesn't hold up at all (as usual).

[Ben Ceremos]

51. The quality and values issue

has minimal validity. Consumers buy what they can afford. In India that is a washingmachine made by the locals at Videocon, only high e4nd salaries buy high ticket items like Whirlpool.
Relevant here is the issue of English spreading and becoming a benefit for workers in developing nations, but only because they already speak other languages, while Americans and Brits tend to speak only English.
More jobs to those with more "world-skills", ie, languages.
GWB/Chimpington/Boyking/Chimpy McCokespoon, etc. and "logic" are not to be used in the same paragraph, me thinks.

[Laelth]

11. Umm ...

... yeah, right.

Of course, we all know that he's just lining the pockets of corporate CEOs and stockholders, but the lengths to which he will go to rationalize his behavior is what's so amazing to me. Does he really believe this bunk? Could he be that stupid? I don't think so. I think he is, indeed, an accomplished liar, and truly, truly evil to the core. I just don't think it's possible for him to be this stupid.

-Laelth

[MadMaddie]

12. That's great isn't it....

Meanwhile Middle-Class American workers are losing their jobs, their homes, health insurance so that India's middle class can grow.

<snip>
While acknowledging the individual trauma of Americans who lose jobs when companies move operations abroad, Bush said India's economic growth is an overall plus for the U.S. economy.
<snip>

He acknowledged the individual trauma of Americans who lose jobs...that's really nice of him...

Translated...
To bad for the American workers...that's just the tough breaks...because our friends in India are really doing well:sarcasm:

* is killing the middle class...

[joefree1]

13. India has a 67% import tax, USA has a 10% import tax

A couple of years ago I worked on a Theme Park project in India. We could hardly import any equipment because of India's 67% import tax (on top of bribes). Indians cannot afford to buy "US products" unless they are being made in India, ... or China.

And it seemed like Bill Gates was visiting India about once a month while I was there.

[sattahipdeep]

20. I think they turned him away

wouldn't use microsquish seems like I remember something like that.

[joefree1]

71. Sorry, Microsoft has a huge factory there now

And Bill is bringing Indian programers here.

[WinkyDink]

15. He didn't say "American workers"; he said "American COMPANIES."

As for "their job base is growing", what does that even mean?

[joefree1]

18. Ding ding ding ding

You are right. See my post above.

[MGKrebs]

16. Whirlpool India

India was identified as a growth market in the late ‘80’s. The Whirlpool Corporation entered into a joint venture agreement with the TVS group to produce automatic washers at a plant set up in Pondicherry. A modest beginning was made to establish the Whirlpool brand in India. In 1995 the Whirlpool Corporation acquired Kelvinator of India Limited and entered into the refrigerator market. Later in 1995, majority ownership was gained in the TVS joint venture and the two entities were merged to form Whirlpool of India Limited.

http://www.whirlpoolindia.com/static/About.htm

[Canuckistanian]

23. Yes, I knew a few people who lost jobs in that deal

They shut down a plant in Canada in the late '80's. It was an outrage at the time.

Now, it's commonplace.

[twaddler01]

17. Yeah, less jobs for us and more money for the corporate world

:eyes:

[rainbow4321]

45. Remember this is the ass who used the phrase "uniquely American"

when a lady in his "audience" said she was having to work 3 jobs just to make ends meet.

Stupidest. President. Ever

[MindPilot]

19. More proof from the Traitor in Chief that

He cares way more about countries that begin with "I" than America. I'm sick of watching them destroy my country!!!

[Bob3]

21. oh for sweet mercy's fuck sakes jackass

they aren't going to order for pizza's to be delivered to India from California and in case you didn't know - GE and Whirlpool and Westinghouse have moved all their manufacturing overseas thanks to the tax breaks we gave them to do that. So even if the Indian middle class acquires a taste for american appliances - that will mean exactly squat to anybody who isn't on the fucking board of directors since working folks won't see a dime of that money go anywhere near them.

Jesus - sweet jesus on a stick - you know it's things like this that test a man's faith. Not when good things happen to bad people - I can deal with that "man is born to trouble as sparks fly upward" but this - that this asshole is president and that despite proving over and over again that he's nothing more than a frat boy jackass with a dangerous taste for power and killing by proxy and that he doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone else on the planet is a bit much. A just and merciful god would have, in Kliban's words "squirted him out of the universe like a watermelon seed" years ago.

again

[Megahurtz]

47. Here here!!!

Good rant!:applause:

[Tight_rope]

73. I second that Here!!! Here!!!

:applause: :applause: Great Rant!

[Ben Ceremos]

52. In case you hadn't heard...

God is dead. Nietzsche noticed this and Dennett and Dawkins are busy burying the rotting corpse, religion.
Peace.

[Sugar Smack]

68. Beautifully put!!

:yourock:

[raccoon]

22. For once, Bush is right.

It does have its benefits--for India.

[MrPrax]

24. Falling on Deaf Ears...

The big competitor for India is not the US--but China.

Apparantly India is worried about 'outsourcing' the high tech sectors (like call centers) to China...
__________________________________________________

India outsources to China for tech talent
November 2, 2004
By Saritha Rai
The New York Times

When Infosys Technologies began scouting for an alternative to India as a source of unlimited, low-cost human resources, the fast-growing company came up with one answer: its home country's archrival, China.

Now, a year after the Infosys Technologies (Shanghai) Company was set up, the venture center has 200 employees and four multinational customers.

Infosys, the Bangalore-based software services company, and other top Indian outsourcing rivals, including Tata Consultancy Services and Wipro Technologies, are doing application development and maintenance work in China as they grow rapidly to keep up with booming demand from the West for their services.

And they are quickly concluding that only China has a worker base equal to India's in terms of cost, quality and scale. Expansion there also offers the ability to cater to--and possibly garner more of--the local and regional markets, including Japan.

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[phoebe]

25. once again, a Bush brother in the mix - Marvin is partners with the

outsourcing "guru" in India - Mr. Purnendu Chatterjee, through his private (of course, no paper trails or significant oversight) firm Chatterjee Group..

[Vinca]

26. Indians might be buying from American "companies,"

but the American companies are outsourcing their work to other foreign countries - as well as India - and leaving the American worker high and dry. Somehow, I doubt the American dream can ever be had on the production line at Domino's or Pizza Hut. When Bush isn't telling lies, he's spreading BS.

[robcon]

27. Outsourcing is a positive development...

and one of the sources of economic growth and jobs for the U.S. Basic economics: free trade is better for both/all countries.

The explosive growth of imports from China in the 90's was a bigger source of U.S. economic growth than was the internet.

And, as economist/op-ed contributor Paul Krugman has shown, even 'unequal trade' - with barriers to trade on one side, is better than no trade.

[stepnw1f]

29. I Have a Photo for You

[phusion]

32. lol!! n/t

[HughBeaumont]

35. Tell these people that:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profiles.html

Spew that Bushpaganda elsewhere. Offshoring jobs benefits NO one but the wealthy and the corporations. They're NOT hiring here as a result, nor are displaced American workers "graduating" to new jobs. You're living in Fantasyland if you think this benefits Joe Lunchpail.

I cannot believe there are progressives out there that acutally support this bullshit practice.

[wuushew]

38. Care to back that statement?

that Chinese crap fueled the "good times" of the 1990s.

Wealth inequality continued to worsen under Clinton. I am of the opinion more than anything the relatively cheap and stable oil prices were the primary stimulant of those years.

Nice to quote Krugman but no one here is talking eliminating all trade. I will continue buy teak and tea from China just not sneakers, clothes or electronic goods that can be built by American workers in American factories.

World wealth is a zero sum game. The third world in raising their standard of living detracts from ours. The globe cannot even sustainably support the current American lifestyle as we can see from the obvious signs of environmental collapse. Given this, I fail to see how such readjustments could work without relatively quick and drastic reductions in world population of at lest 66%.

The necessary steady state paradigm caused by npg then zpg is anathema to the same free traders who are often unapologetic perpetual growthers.

[VirginiaDem]

62. world wealth is not zerosum

This is 19th century economics.

[wuushew]

81. What do you consider the building blocks of wealth?

Have you not seen the recent scientific study about the scarcity of metallic ores? As resources are not land, water and energy limited in availability? Do you deny that Chinese demand for oil is not increasing your cost of gasoline at the pump or that demands made on natural gas for fertilizer or plastic creation somehow does not affect your home heating costs?


If one believes that wealth is created by labor has not the industrial revolution simply been multiplication of the effort of our machines by the necessary fossil fuel energy to power them? Since one man can reliably give 1/10 horsepower of work, society has been enjoying the the fruits of many through the effort of one device. The so called information age is nothing special as the speed and efficiency gains made possible by high speed communication create virtual increases in services and material goods.


We can live well in the future but it needs to be with many less people and only on sustainable basis.

[VirginiaDem]

83. Limited environmental resources

is the wildcard. I would certainly break with traditional economists here and argue that environmental protection has to be written in to trade agreements and the like. I would also point out that many economists have started to do that (from my understanding).

But is your argument that wealth is not zero-sum because we have finite resources? That seems to me a different argument.

[flashdebadge]

108. It's not that difficult to sustain. After all, technology is allowing

farmers to produce twice as much on the same acre of land as they did 8-10 years ago. Urban and suburban population centers have grown and will continue to grow, but the rural areas are still rural. As I was explaining to another member the other day, next time your in an airplane, look down and the vast amounts of undeveloped, un farmed land and you will realize, if we needed to we could produce the needed food. The govt. paid farmers for years to NOT grow food just to keep prices where their at.

[Zhade]

96. 'Nuh~uh, is not!' is hardly a cogent argument.

NT!

[VirginiaDem]

97. It is for economists on int'l trade n/t

[Zhade]

99. Arguments based on appeals to authority are likewise fallicious.

You need to actually back up your assertions.

[VirginiaDem]

102. Unless the authorities are correct.

I'm backing up my contention with the only one that matters--almosts all economists agree. This does not make it a fact but it does carry more than enough weight. If you disagree with the majority of economists, then the burden of proof is on you. How was Ricardo (and by extension Stolper-Samuelson and Hoekscher-Olin) wrong vis-a-vis non-zero sum international trade?

If you're not familiar with these theories, then find Econ for Dummies or the like and read it but don't disingenously hassle me because I don't have time to teach Econ for Radicals 101.

[Zhade]

111. If that's true, then you won't mind proving it with evidence.

But of course, you can't, so you refuse to. Common freeper tactic.

[VirginiaDem]

112. Are you asking me to teach you economics 101 because

you believe that all economists are wrong? And you accuse me of Freeperdom--this is a Creationist tactic. Seriously, if you don't know the first thing about international economics--and comparative advantage is pretty much the first thing--than you've got no business mouthing off about economics. I'm done with this.

[Ben Ceremos]

53. Do you believe what you write?

As another poster said, this is Bushaganda so why don't you go catapult it?

[VirginiaDem]

61. You're right.

Not only is the outsourcing bogeyman today's version of the ridiculous 1980s Don't Buy Japanese Cars, but everybody here is ignoring the elephant in the room--India is developing a middle class. This is a fundamental good. Helping India develops helps everybody. It can potentially lower misery in India, lower birth rates, lower disease, increase education, etc. After decades of trying to help India develop via development programs, it's now happening spontaneously via the market.

But fortunately Democratic leaders aren't as "wise" as all the 19th century neomercantilist nationalists on this thread.

[progressivebydesign]

80. Free trade is good?? here is the deadly result.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060224/ts_afp/bangladeshtextilefire_060224112149 (fire in a locked textile factory in Bangladesh, at least 50+ have died already -- and the company had a nice american sounding name, cuz you KNOW they are supplying our cheap ass stores over here. is it worth it??)

WOnder how many of us REALLY need $10.00 shirts from the mega stores? Remember back when people didn't have to have closets the size of small apartments? When a few shirts and dresses were enough? THIS is where those lovely, cheap, free-trade, garments come from. Happy????

[Solon]

91. Dude, put down the bong, please, for all our sakes, put it down...

or at least, pass it to me, I would love to know what you are smoking!

[Zorra]

28. Fuck that lying traitor. Bu*h is fully committed to destroying America.

We desperately need to get him and all his corrupt corporate republican lackeys OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT.

[aquart]

30. Is he the president of India?

How DARE he talk about THEIR growing middle class while ours is shrinking?

[AnneD]

33. Hey...

I've had pizza in India, it sure wasn't Dominoes. No meat for the Hindus and Sikhs, meat but no pork for the Muslims, the works for the Christian, and leftovers for the Buddhist. Makes deciding on the ingrediants in this country look easy. The topping were odd but good.
But the point is....we are not outsourcing Dominoes. We are outsourcing high paying jobs while our workers are stuck here making pizzas.
What a maroon. I demand his job be outsourced.

[AzDar]

34. This is roughly analogous to Cheney's ebay comment during the

2004 campaign, where he insisted that they economy was terrific, and that's not even counting the 'millions of people who are making money on eBay'. So UNBELIEVABLY disconnected from the average American; I guess that's what happens when you've never worked an 'honest' day in your life..

[HughBeaumont]

36. Hey Repigs! Defend THIS position!

Please. PLEASE. I beg of you . . TELL me how you, as a worker (and also, stop all this bullshit that you aren't "middle class", that you're somehow immune . . . you are. DEAL with it, that's the game they're playing with you're dumb asses and you don't even get it), can possibly support this fuckmonkey's stupidity. Most of the companies he named make every one of their products offshore. The result? More hiring overseas, more money in the CEO's pockets.

Defend this. PLEASE. Look like a stupid ass. Again.

[wordpix]

37. Hey, Bush, you need to develop taste for bologna sandwiches served in jail

[tabasco]

39. Not only does Bush want our jobs exported ...

he claims there are not enough "bright people" here in the US. He wants more foreigners to come here and take our jobs here in the good ol' USA.

Bush: Increase H-1B Visas

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/technology/13783836.htm

[fujiyama]

56. He's somewhat accurate

about the state of American education, if he takes himself to be the prime example.

[Dr Fate]

40. Benefit: Increase in Americanized Indian names. n/t

n/t

[area51]

41. Bush = traitor

Bush & every other asshole supporting offshoring/inshoring is a traitor to America.

[brooklynite]

42. In 5 years, will the Republicans try to convince the Indians

that its an economic benefit to outsource their jobs to China?

[shanti]

43. of course there are benefits...

to he and his BASE.:(

[rainbow4321]

44. And the US working class gets to go to soup kitchens

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/022306dnnathunger.16ded7a4.html


When Lisa Koch asked several people at a Chicago soup kitchen to complete a survey of the people who eat there, she got a surprising response: "They asked how long it would take because they had to get back to work after lunch."

A national survey of people eating at soup kitchens, food banks and shelters found that 36 percent came from households in which at least one person had a job. In the Chicago area, it was 39 percent.

"Even though the economy might be changing, it isn't creating the kinds of jobs that allow people to make ends meet," said Ms. Koch, of the Greater Chicago Food Depository.

More than 25 million Americans turned to the nation's largest network of food banks, soup kitchens and shelters for meals last year, up 9 percent from 2001, says the report by America's Second Harvest. Those seeking food included 9 million children and nearly 3 million senior citizens, the report says.

[rman]

46. ...for the wealthy - Bush's real base. nt

[Strelnikov_]

49. Um, Westinghouse Is Owned By BRITISH NUCLEAR FUELS, Chimp

What a dickhead.

[DODI]

115. Not to defend *, but Westinghouse Electric Co.

is owned by BNFL. WECO is a nuclear services business. Westinghouse consumer products is owned by Viacom I believe -- the company was broken up several years ago.

[Texacrat]

55. Why do people think that only whites have the right to a respectable job?

Attacking the creation of jobs in India is the wrong way to fix our economic problems. Opposition to such oppportunities for the Indians is mere xenophobia.

And yes I'm speaking as an Indian-American.

[fujiyama]

57. With a few exceptions,

most here are not blaming the Indian worker for taking these jobs.


I think there is a sense of entitlement among many Americans in believing these jobs are their's, but many are losing jobs here in the US due to multinational corporations outsourcing the work outside of this country so some anger is certainly understandable. However, I do see one issue that people don't get - the "American" corporations are multinational entities. They have no loyalty to any one nation. That is leading to resentment of these corporations, though a few are misguided and arrogant in believing this is India's fault.

People have to realize that this is actually the system the US set up. The US for years has preached globalization, and much of the world has bent over to accomidate these corporations.

I'm Indian American as well, and while I do see xenophobia rear its ugly head on this board sometimes, I don't think opposition to outsourcing is necessarily xenophobic. OTOH, when I see posts whining "send all the H1B Indians back", then yes I do sense some xenophobia.

[VirginiaDem]

63. And, yes, you're right.

This whole argument is depressingly reminiscent of the anti-Japanese argument so popular in the 1980s. It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. We should be, one, celebrating the creation of an Indian middle class and two, doing what we can to increase the safety net here for the displaced. It's interesting that Bush is doing neither. Clinton understood this.

[HughBeaumont]

66. We should be celebrating the growth of one middle class . . .

.. . at the expense of another? Because let's face facts: that's exactly what's happening here and you playing the xenophobia card from the bottom of the deck doesn't justify your position any.

"Basic Economics", "Economics 101" is a total COP OUT and an RNC talking point. Economic theories often serve the wealthy at the behest of the little guy, and even moreso now. Joe Sixpack doesn't have a nano/biotech lab in his garage to create the next HP or Microsoft as he did in the 80s - new business creation/funding takes a hell of a lot more hoops to jump through, and relies a lot more on technology, funding and tools as opposed to guile and determination.

And damn it, this is not the same as the anti-Japanese movement because back then, we had other jobs/careers/industries to go to and college wasn't astronomically out of reach or time consuming as it is now. In the new millenium, we have no such luxury. R&D is going overseas in droves. Nothing is made here anymore. American wages are not keeping up with the pace of inflation and the cost of living. This economy has no strong manufacturing/industrial base anymore, and the service jobs that we're creating in their place pay way less than their manufacturing counterparts and offer worse, if any, benefits.

Oh, and the whole "education" card? Say you get laid off of a career and have to go and re-train for a new one. What are you going to pick that can't be offshored/inshored? Do you got a few years to put your life on hold while you GET this training, as in enough cash to pay the bills, put food on the table and a roof overhead? And how can you predict that the career you choose won't be following it's predecessor overseas? Indians and Chinese have access to the same universities we have. They can get the same degrees we have and they will always, always ALWAYS be cheaper. So why, exactly, should we not be worried?

Do you seriously expect the corporations and the "I got mine" elite that run them to all of a damn sudden become benevolent, stop masturbating to pictures of bank vaults and start building plants and hiring HERE and start filling up those vacant downtown offices anytime soon?

Also, America doesn't NEED 130 million nanotechnologists or business owners. What do we do for the people who just aren't MEANT for college? Do they not deserve a better living than "Hi, welcome to fucking Wal Mart?"

Seriously, are you actually believing to the pro-corporate bullshit you're spewing out?

[VirginiaDem]

69. So is there an expanded

Indian middle class do to outsourcing or not? That was my primary point. I've seen a lot of anecdotal evidence and some empirical evidence that outsourcing specifically and IT more generally are indeed greatly increasing the Indian middle class. If the work of an NGO non-profit had yielded these results we would be cheering. If it happens spontaneously through the market, our duty, I take it, is to ignore it.

As for your other points, yes this is much like the Japanese argument of the 80s because your response sounds almost exactly like the responses of those times. The IT/Internet/telecommunications boom came decidedly after the 80s Japanese autombile debate so the exact same argument existed then, basically the product cycle argument, that something we had begun and gotten good at had been taken over by countries that could do it cheaper. Woe was us! What were we ever going to do? Guys like Lee Iacocca, Phillip Crane and Pat Buchanan had a field day with the corporations.

No, there are not enough nanotechnology jobs to employ everybody now. But there will be another product cycle(s) sooner, rather than later and those cycles will create enormous number of jobs and to the extent that the Bushistas haven't made us uncompetitive by outlawing/underfunding research (see stem cells), the US will no doubt be the leader or a big player in any or all of the products. The best candidates: nanotechnology, fab labs, stem cells, biotech generally, clean energy (although we're certainly behind the Japanese curve on this one). When that happens, there will be a lot of jobs and wealth created and you'll get to go back to the relatively happy argument that the US's gain's are exploitation, rather than the current India's-gains-are-our-losses.

Yep, retraining is insufficient by itself. If you understood basic economics, rather than just denouncing it out of hand, you would know that the Stolper-Samuelson and H-O theories predict that Ricardian comparative advantage taken a step further means that although nations benefit from trade, those involved in a nation's relatively scarce sectors (of land, labor, capital) will be temporarily screwed. Our relatively scarce sector is labor so free trade hurts our laborers and good. So it makes sense that labor is against outsourcing and it makes sense that some progressives at least are against it. But most economists will also tell you that the gains a nation enjoys from trade can and should be used to help those harmed by trade. This is what Clinton understood and Bush doesn't. We should have not only retraining but also stronger unemployment, healthcare and gov't funded R&D in the above areas. Of course, Bush is doing nothing of the sort so workers who have lost their jobs to outsourcing are screwed until the next product cycle.

No, I don't seriously expect the corporations to give a shit. No, they're not going to build plants here when it doesn't benefit them economically. Thus the need for economists...

[HughBeaumont]

72. Do you even LISTEN to yourself?

It reminds me of a Peanuts comic long ago: Linus was telling Charlie Brown about a football game that he saw on TV and how jubilant the celebration was from the home team crowd because they won the game. Then Charlie asks "How did the other team feel?"

You're essentially agreeing with me, but the only difference is that you're saying "tough toenails, sucks to be you, I guess" while doing so. I'm not doing that.

And tell me exactly what happened after the 80s? What happened during the late 80s/early 90s? Anyone? Anyone? We had a recession, that's what. So was all of that fear projected STILL an overreaction after the giant penny-ante investor expungement from the stock market? I lived through this - I couldn't BUY a damned job and I pounded the pavement often. It wasn't uncommon that I saw caves under the guise of offices: rows of empty cubes and signs on doors stating "No applications or resumes will be received at this time". The internet briefly saved us for about seven years, but what happened AFTER that? The morass we're in now - wages are declining, people cannot afford homes, the middle class is vanishing, working people are going to soup kitchens, our debt and trade deficit is skyrocketing. But unlike the 80s, I don't feel there'll be an "internet" or "software" industry to save us. It'll just be a lot of underpaid business "owners", low-paid service and clerical workers, and stagnantly-paid office drones.

The product cycle you're talking about solely depends on whether they're going to make the product HERE or not. Direct Foreign Investment can only employ so many people. But the operative phrase in that is "WHEN THAT HAPPENS". You're merely expressing FAITH that what's happened for years will continue to happen, much like economists. Well, what if this time, it doesn't? Remember, software/PCs took decades to proliferate, and really, that was the only mainstream industry that saved us while manufacturing took a giant nosedive (that still continues to this day). How long did that last? Where's our next "killer app"? Where's our next industry? What of our nation's physical economy? We can't even guard our own PORTS, for Christ's sake, because our Presidick wants to give it to Dubai (as well as more IT jobs). The middle class just can't WAIT for this to happen and each year they wait, there's one more career that's being inshored or offshored.

See, and here's where else you're not making sense - other countries, THANKS to Bewsh cutting/underfunding all of the industries and sciences that can lift us out of this shitbucket, totally have the jump on us in just about everything you listed - bio and nanotech, clean energy, superconductivity, surgery, fab labs, etc. So the odds of the new "product cycle" happening here are getting slimmer with each appeasement to the science-hating religious right that this administration gives.

DID Clinton understand? He signed the Repuke-drafted NAFTA, which has been nothing but disaster to the middle-classes and environments of all three nations involved, but as usual, a jackpot to the ruling classes and "industrialists".

I'm not going to pretend to understand how economists think, because what little I've read seems to be based on hypothesis, prediction, and it almost always favors capital. When someone can come up with a benevolent model that truly lifts ALL boats, then I'll start listening and believing them. Until then, I just see them as puppet defenders of the Republican agenda who's sole M.O. is to drown the middle class in favor of a low-paid and fearful populace.

[VirginiaDem]

79. No, we're not that close it seems to me

We agree that this is product-cycle related. In that sense we're close. We disagree on when new products are coming and who will take advantage of it. Our little slice of agreement is that Bush is making us less competitive to the extent that he is underfunding/actively rejecting investment. But we also disagree here on the meaning. I would say that on something like stem cell research we're behind because of the active stance the Bushistas have taken against it but on other products such as nanotechnology, fab labs, we're right there with anybody in terms of R&D, investment.

We disagree on the recessions, or at least the meaning. I too was an adult (young) during that recession. I couldn't find work. It was a mess. That's what happens during recessions. But you've convinced me of nothing more than that economic ups and downs exist. Most economists would argue that cutting yourself off from trade (which is what's being argued for by the anti-outsourcing folks) will make matters worse, not better.

My original point still stands. You're making a classic zero-sum argument. The US is becoming less competitive as a result of outsourcing and other open trade components. If we could (somehow) stop outsourcing, we could keep those jobs here instead of watching them flit off to India. This is, in a weird way, a limited but conservative argument--you've got nothing against the manufacturing, selling and buying of products. You just want the US to maintain its hegemonic economic position, at the expense of Indians and others who benefit from these jobs. This is nationalistic mercantilism worthy of Pat Buchanan and there is nothing whatsoever "progressive" about it.

I would agree that today's economic situation here and elsewhere is a mess. However, I'm sure we would disagree over what can and should be done about it. To me, we're stuck with capitalism, for better and worse.

[wuushew]

85. Would economic development cease if nations isolated themselves?

We in North America have most of the raw materials save oil to sustain a viable society. Surely the same can be said of the rich sub-continent of India. Please explain why Indian culture cannot survive without global trade.

The foreign iron ore that we import or the non-Hawaiian pineapples we eat are not cheaper because they are easier to produce in foreign countries merely they have the advantage of being the product of cheap labor which I refute as a primary reason for trade.

[VirginiaDem]

87. Then you've got no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, economic development would cease if nations isolated themselves. Some nations would get along better than others but we'd be moving from a non-zero sum world into a zero-sum world. And just so we're clear here, you're arguing for an end to trade, no? I suppose Indian culture would survive just fine; Indian development would be another matter however.

Your last paragraph exudes a swamp-like ignorance that I fear stepping into. Nations trade because BOTH nations economically benefit from the arrangement, just like individuals trade for the same reason. This is what was captured by Ricardo.

[wuushew]

92. Sorry classical economics emphasizes comparitive advantages

If we follow your premise then somehow factories in India and China making identical products to those outsourced from America must be doing more efficiently for each input in order for it to be non-zero sum.

How do you see the globe as non-zero sum when the cost differentials are over-whelmingly based on labor? What is your defintion of zero-sum?

[VirginiaDem]

94. wrong

apples and oranges

Non-zero sum comes from the logic of Ricardian comparative advantage. If the US is twice as efficient at making wheat as Mexico and 1.3 times as efficient at making rice, then everything else equal, if Mexico specializes in making rice then both countries will gain from trade, even though the US is more efficient at making rice than the Mexicans. There are many ways one could define non-zero sum but I'm obviously using this Ricardian definition--both nations are better off than they would have been in the absense of trade, better off meaning both nations are producing and selling more.

Obviously, Indian comparative advantage lies in industries that take advantage of their English and IT skills. But of course one of the factors is cost of labor. That doesn't matter in terms of Ricardian non-zero-sumness. Part of being efficient, of course, is doing something relatively cheaply. The other part, I suppose, is doing it well. In the post-war era, Japan made electronics cheaply and crappily. Their comparative advantage in crappy electronics was a function of cheap labor. Later their comparative advantage was in great electronics. Then their comparative advantage was in skilled labor, R&D, etc.

[HughBeaumont]

89. More like "unbridled corporatism".

Capitalism as you and the economists portray it might (and it's a BIG might) proliferate a model that benefits all classes in all countries. But that's simply not the way the world works anymore. This is an empiric and unhinged economy adjusted for the rich, BY the rich at the behest of the lower classes of all countries. No matter WHERE the market is at, there will ALWAYS be rich people.

And I hate to tell you this, the very Indians you're looking after are being exploited like fiends. It's at ALL people's expense that the wealthy thrive thanks to deregulation and job offshoring, and there's nothing progressive about THAT at all.

Putting money in the hands of one class (and make no mistake, that's the path we're already on) helps no one in the long term.

[davekriss]

114. I will not sacrifice my children at your altar

You make the point that the motivation behind resistance to offshoring and insourcing (H1B and L1 visas) is "nationalistic mercantilism", and if it were as simple as you say -- if politics were not involved -- then you would be right.

How can any "progressive" argue (you would say) that we should work to preserve the fact that we as a nation control and consume more than a third of the world's resources while representing just 6% of the world's population, especially if in maintaining this imbalance it means oppressing others around the world? After all, that's what the foreign/military policy of the USG has been designed to do these decades since WWII; just look in places as far reaching as East Timor and Nicaragua and Iraq, to name 3 of several dozens of nations that have felt our, um...insistence that they play our way in our sandbox of greed.

However, a fair floating of all boats is not what Globalism is about; it instead uses the ideology of capitalism, and the false empiricism of classical economics, to persuade the many that they should sit idly by as capital reduces cost of labor input into the value stream of production. The savings don't flow equally throughout our society, but to the owners of capital and a thin sliver of managers and magistrates that serve them. Thus the tremendous increase in the concentration of wealth into the hands of a very few. These last three decades have been covert class war.

cuz take away our playstations
and we are a third world nation
under the thumb of some blue blood royal son
who stole the oval office and that phony election
-- Ani DiFranco

First, let's return to the understanding that we "as a nation" consume and control more than a third of the world's resources. The top 1% of our nation controls more wealth than the bottom 80% combined, roughly 38% of our net worth. Less than 3 million men, women, and children live a life of greed and ease within our nation of 290 million while the bottom 40% struggle daily with ... 0.4% of the crumbs. So who is it that greedily holds on to our material advantage? Who is it that sends armies into foreign lands when the jackals of economic hitmen fail? Not me. Not any of my friends. Many of us here have more in common with the laboring classes around the world than we do with our fellow "citizens" who determine who runs for office within our borders. We are not xenophobic, we are desperate.

My point here is it is unfair to lay guilt on us, the laboring classes, that would have us sit on the sidelines while the few decide for us what our future will be. The scariest thing for elites everywhere is that we can gain consciousness of our own power to determine for ourselves what our world will be.

Second, I acknowledge that pursuing "best cost" economics increases the classical notion of "efficiency", and this efficiency frees up productive capacity that can be organized into new industries, building novel products, creating heretofore non-existent markets. But we're not witnessing here an example of Shumpeter's "creative destruction", this is not a case of automobile manufacture replacing buggy-whip makers. What is happening to the American laboring class is not inevitable; it is carefully constructed policy, from the boardrooms to the White House, something made to happen.

Thus, until the distribution of value is made more equitable, we (the rascal multitude) can and should bring the changes snuck in under the idealism of Globalism to a screeching, democratically-determined halt. We should organize, unionize, collectively throw our to-be reconstructed weight around. Otherwise it is akin to bleeding to death, which is what is actually happening to vast swathes of the American middle-class.

When the compensation of the CEO selling within or into U.S. markets returns to the pre-Reagan norm of 40x the minimum wage paid to his or her workers, instead of the 400x, 500x, maybe even 1,000x it's become -- when more of the value stream is plowed back into the many, via wages or redistribution --, then maybe we can have a more liberal economic policy. But again, as things stand now, we are dying a death of a thousand cuts.

I grew up in a company town
And I worked real hard 'til that company closed down
They gave my job to another man
On half my wages in some foreign land
And when I asked how could this be
Any good for our economy?
I was told nobody cares
So long as they make money when they sell their shares

Can you hear us? Are you listening?
No power without accountability!
-- Billy Bragg

Too many of us are sacrificed on the altar of economic efficiency. We don't have to feed that God. We can stop it only by acting together. It is, to put it simply, class war. First step is to throw them out, the Republithugs and DINOs, get them out of office; put up candidates of our own and work to we drop to get them elected. If that fails, or we fail to act, it's an Argentinian oblivion for us, maybe worse.

[progressivebydesign]

78. and when the Indian workers organize and demand more money..

and capitalism dictates that they pay more for those workers health care and benefits, then the American companies will just find ANOTHER race to exploit. Suddenly the jobs will be moving to another country, where the stockholders can benefit by dirt cheap labor,and India will find itself pissing and moaning about outsourcing the jobs to another country.

[progressivebydesign]

77. I think the wonderful safety net you speak of is called FOOD SERVICE.

That's what happens to people who lose breadwinner jobs to workers in other countries. American companies, while hiding profits offshore, are throwing our jobs to other countries to save money. Cuz.. it's all about the money, right? ANd the displaced workers.. safety net? yeah.. it's called food banks, homeless shelters, 3 p/t jobs in food service, and no health care.

I dont' give a fuck about anyone else's middle class.. except ours. Sorry.

[VirginiaDem]

82. Finally, a little honesty

"I dont' give a fuck about anyone else's middle class.. except ours. Sorry."

Which has been my entire point throughout the thread. Thank you for your honesty and I hope everybody here reads your post and considers the implications.

This is a conservative, Pat Buchananite philosophy being eagerly flouted by "progressives".

[HughBeaumont]

86. It's not conservative and stop saying that.

Yeah, it's Republican to want you're own middle class to, God forbid, improve themselves. But it's so "progressive" to support the practice of destroying one middle class to lift another. :eyes:

Why can't the Indians and the Chinese, if they're the smart and economical people they are, stop sucking the teat of American MNCs and make their OWN economies, employing their OWN people in their OWN industries? What's wrong with Indian VCs exactly, that they invest primarily in the job-snatching offshoring industry and not companies that can provide them with a strong economy they can call their own? Possibly because there are far too many of them NOT to exploit?

So what's the solution then? In the name of being "PC", do we just sit back and let our middle class deteriorate? Let them get all of the spoils and the industries while we sit on our ass waiting for the MNCs to start hiring and thinking again? You still have not addressed what exactly we're going to be making and doing here.

You're doing the exact thing that Rove WANTS you to do - "let the PC dems play the 'class warfare' and 'xenophobe' cards and watch as they infight. Meanwhile, we can make the labor believe we're on their side ('course, we're NOT, but don't tell them that)".

[VirginiaDem]

88. It is conservative and you are wrong on several points

Yes, I have addressed what we are going to make. I have listed those industries and products and we have, I thought, agreed to disagree on the likelihood of the US becoming leaders in these industries.

Yes, it is a conservative argument. There are many different def'ns for "conservative" but to the extent that you're advocating isolationism, nationalism, tradition, and mercantilism, then it's conservative. You say this:

"Why can't the Indians and the Chinese, if they're the smart and economical people they are, stop sucking the teat of American MNCs and make their OWN economies, employing their OWN people in their OWN industries? What's wrong with Indian VCs exactly, that they invest primarily in the job-snatching offshoring industry and not companies that can provide them with a strong economy they can call their own? Possibly because there are far too many of them NOT to exploit?"

Except for the word "exploit", this could have come from Buchanan or any other America-first isolationist. It's borderline redneck, to be honest.

[HughBeaumont]

90. And that's borderline ad-hominem.

CLICK.

[VirginiaDem]

95. Okay then

since in your first response to me you accused me of "spewing corporate bullshit", I take back the "borderline redneck" implication and say instead, do you really believe the redneck bullshit you're spewing?

[HughBeaumont]

67. Please cite ONE example on this thread where that's being said.

We're talking about destroying one middle class to lift another, an example of rotten economics that in the long run benefits the wealthy who run MNCs and Universities.

The xenophobia card is an irrelevant distraction spewed by people idiotically trying to defend Republican zero-sum destruction of the American middle class, which is comprised of thousands of different nationalities (like that matters). Real people are suffering on BOTH sides of the pond because of this practice.

[progressivebydesign]

76. I'm so sick of the racism card here.

Guess what? When someone speaks out on ANYTHING chances are that the people involved are of a race. Because everyone is some race. If I disagree with you am I racist because you are not purely caucasian? Or is it because I'm calling bullshit on your claim that we're being racist because we disagree with American companies destroying America?

[VirginiaDem]

84. Well, since just above you say you don't give an

"f" about other countries' middle classes than I think you are in very dangerous territory, vis-a-vis racism. I would bet there's a very strong correlation between people with racists beliefs and people who don't give an "f" about other countries' middle classes. That would be hard to measure though so we'll have to go by anecdotal evidence.

[Solon]

93. Actually, India's democracy will become a problem soon...

OK, so they have an expanding middle class, for now, but what about a decade from now? Soon enough, the workers will organize, wages will rise, and profits will shrink, so then, what will the American Companies do? Will they stay, or will they move to cheaper pastures? Why is it that SHORT TERM gains are such a good thing when long term gains have yet to happen? Hell, China will happily pick up the jobs that will be lost in India, without the right to organize or even the right to protest, the Chinese Government could ensure that a permanent worker base without the inconvienence of having wages rise, etc.

Look to Mexico to see the effects, they are losing jobs, from USian companies, to countries like Indonesia, Phillipines, and other cheaper locations. When Mexican jobs are outsourced, then we are definately in trouble.

[VirginiaDem]

104. I understand that globalization has its negative effects.

You've outlined a lot of potentially negative scenarios involving globalization. It's currently wreaking havoc. I just don't see a viable alternative and I strongly believe that we should be as unbiased as we can when assessing these things. You've shown that ability simply by admitting that India currently has an expanding middle class. For this I feel soothed. I use very strong language, stick to my guns, but try as much as I can to acknowledge when I've made a mistake or when somebody has a good point but because I hold somewhat heretical (but still very Democratic-party democratic) views, I have this habit of sending people over the edge at DU.

You're making a race-to-the-bottom argument in which producers constantly seek out the location of lowest production cost. Part of my argument is that the US will overcome in the long-run (unless Bushistas and the like make research illegal) because of inherent comparative advantages in R&D. Another part of my argument is that if the shittiest jobs move from the somewhat shitty countries to the shittiest of shitty countries than the shittiest of shitty countries will become a little less shitty. Pardon my language. Will everybody's problems be solved? No, hell no--exploitation in the Marxist sense will abound. Is there a viable alternative? I don't see one. Do you?

[Solon]

109. I'm glad you acknowledge the problems associated with globalization...

The thing is that the status quo is NOT sustainable in the long run. While it is true that the US has a comparative advantage compared to let's say China right now in R&D and technology, that does not hold true with Japan or Europe. Also, that situation will not last forever with India as well. In addition to that, the race to the bottom is not good for workers in many of these other nations as well, as I mentioned with Mexico, when the workers are outsourced, their local economies were already devastated due to globalization so they cannot find work locally, and so they immigrate to the United States illegally, in increasingly large numbers. In addition to this are outside pressures to nations due to loan or trade obligations that force them to change laws to favor corporate profits over labor, environmental, or safety laws.

That is the major problem here, the very structure of Globalization and "Free" trade is flawed, or more accurately, skewed to favor the profits of corporations over the rights of society and individuals in general. Unlike our competition with Japan or Germany in the past, especially in regards to Automobiles, but also electronics and other products, they used their own ingenuity, made higher quality products and basically beat our asses at as fair a competition as possible. That is not what is happening now, now we have entrenched multi-national corporations that simply move factory to factory to the lowest bidder when it comes to both wages and laws. This leads to a scenario where these nations basically forfeit the very idea that they can form industries of their own that can compete globally, and turn over ALL domestic production to foreign companies. The problem is that they are at the mercy of these companies, and when yet another nation offers a cheaper alternative, they will close up shop and move, leaving that other country out to dry. India is somewhat of an exception rather than the rule, part of the reason they have a growing middle class is their prohibitively high import tax, it is almost impossible to flood their market with under priced goods as has happened in the United States, its a form of protectionism. Instead, they opened up to foreign investment, to build factories for products marked for export, but at the same time had just enough leverage to actually stave off some of the worst effects of free trade, though they still have many problems with it.

Perhaps the most egregious is when Monsanto helped buy out the largest seed supplier of India, and provided them with a new GM crop, a species of cotton that they promised would increase yields within the year in addition to not requiring pesticides. So many farmers in India basically went into debt to buy this more expensive cottonseed and then what happened? The crop failed, insects ate them and also the farmers, so far into debt, couldn't pay it off, so to prevent their families from having to pay off the debt, many committed suicide. This is but one example of how much power companies have over people, another would be Bhopal, but that is a rather infamous example. Another would be the massacre of fruit farmers in Indonesia by Dole(you probably have drank their juice) when they hired Mercenaries to kill the striking farmers and their families(did I tell you I'm boycotting them?). I could continue, telling you about the sweatshops of Mexico and the rest of Latin America, in addition to much of Southeast Asia, and Africa as well. Places where children sew clothes or make shoes for pennies on the dollar, in fact, being paid LESS than what would be a Living wage within their own nation. Also, its not like many have a choice, either the government itself is openly fascist in how it handles unwieldy workers, creating a situation of virtual if not actual slavery for the workers of Nike and Tommy Hilfinger. These aren't potential problems, they are real and current problems that we all have to face sooner or later.

You know there are huge problems with a system where both American and Canadian Union workers march side by side with Latin American laborers to protest any new "free" trade treaties like the FTAA. They, more than many people, have seen the effects, usually first hand, of "free" trade, and they don't want it as it is practiced today. The biggest problem is that the economics of scale seems to have fallen by the wayside here, if Nike can open up a factory in Nicaragua that will only make half as many shoes as a factory in the US, but with one-eighth the cost, they will do it, and the most insulting thing about it is that the prices stay the same here, even if the US is out a few thousand workers. Actually, that is one thing I find most ironic, I remember seeing, back in the eighties, fear mongers talking about American jobs being taken over by robots, and that is by and large true, for building increasingly complex machines where such robots are economical, like cars. However, we are actually seeing the reverse in many cases with other, cheaper products, such as clothes. A human being is by and large cheaper than a machine at doing said job, because of other costs, like maintenance and technicians. Humans are cheap, robots are not, its really that simple, and even better if it involve a job that is easily learned.

My problem with "Free" trade as practiced today has nothing to do with either patriotism or nationalism, nor do I think that American workers are somehow entitled to have jobs while foreign workers are not. My problem is actually this, we have a smaller world where companies can and do move from one place to another as if national borders do not exist, I say give workers the same right. That is part of the reason why I put Free in "Free" trade in quotes. You cannot have true free trade without both labor and capital being capable of moving to places where the jobs are at.

Unlike what you may think, not many in the anti-globalization movement are anti-trade period, some are, to be sure, but not all. I don't really care if I call an Indian company for troubleshooting of my computer if the computer or its software were made in India and designed by an Indian company. That is why so many talk about fair trade over "free" trade. I will, happily enough, buy products from foreign companies under some conditions, a few of those is that the companies in question are indigenous to that nation, they practice labor practices that are progressive, and follow the laws of their nations fairly. To give an example would be Japanese auto makers, that, unlike our own auto makers, they actually "outsourced" their factories to the United States because their largest market is here in the states, this cuts down on transportation costs, and while they usually don't allow Unionization, favoring states that have "right to fire" laws, they actually have benefits and wages that are comparable to the Big 3, or should it be 2 now, or is it 1? I forget. That is another thing that pisses me off, I would have no problem with any American company opening up factories in Mexico if they actually intended to do it in a way similar to the Japanese auto makers, but they don't. Instead they do the exact opposite, and because of that, plus the mistakes their management have made recently, they are suffering horribly. Another example is Volkswagen, the Beetle is perhaps the most prolific vehicle ever sold in the 20th century, and part of the reason for that is that, before there were many "free" trade agreements they "franchised" out the design, and with the only provisions being that their name gets respected and they get some money, they opened up manufacturing and every single major area of the world and made quite a large amount of money out of it. Of course, they had a good initial design that was almost unchanged all the way up to the end of the century, but it was reliable and easy to work on too.

Now, you ask if I see an alternative, and I say yes. Let me put it this way, we have a method of Globalization that is structured from the Top down, what we need is one that is structured from the Bottom up. Every nation on Earth relies, for its economic well being, on large populations of blue collar workers, the flaw is to think that any nation, including the United States, can sustain itself for eternity without this major fact. Now, what is to be done, you ask. Well, I say there is already one model, that, though flawed, is actually better at free trade than the methods the rest of the world use. That would be the EU and the EEA, that model is only slightly more transparent, and also they have supra-national laws for standards in health, safety, labor, and environmental laws that ALL nations have to obey. Unlike our free trade agreements, their's actually has the voice of the people behind them, if only so incidentally, when was the last time you voted for your chambers of commerce to represent YOU at a WTO meeting?

If we are to sign free trade agreements at all, they should have at least minimum standards similar to EU laws. Given that, we should have a more transparent system, where, instead of business owners deciding the terms of free trade without our input, instead we should elect our own representatives to a regional body to govern over regional trade. To give the example of NAFTA or the FTAA, as those are our regions, we should have an organization similar to the EU Parliament, in addition to a standardization of currency and national laws that make transitions between nations much easier. A true multilateral organization, such as this, would actually scare USians to death, an American Parliament, so to speak over all the Americas but mostly dominated by Latin America by default(larger population). I'm not saying the EU is perfect, I think it has HUGE transparency problems, but I also think it could serve as a viable template for similar regional organizations either here or elsewhere, that are more transparent and more democratic. Rather than copy and paste its flawed organizational model to adapt to our needs, instead adapt it, even streamline it a little, to allow for such reforms as I propose. Supra-national organizations are the future, that much I agree on, however, the question is how democratic will they be? The WTO, an organization that can decide whether I can survive or not, I have no power over, even if only one vote, that needs to change.

[progressivebydesign]

100. OH! I guess only caucasians live in America. Do you know what race is?

Just curious... cuz you LOVE to throw that term "racist" around freely here. If I don't give a fuck about enriching another country's middle class, that makes me a racist? How would that be? Ummmm... race is not nationality. There are people in caucasian countries whose middle class I couldn't care less about. What does that mean? Hmmmm???

I LOVE how people come here and start accusing others of racism. I'm tired of watching the American (country not race) middle class disappear, while I'm supposed to CHEER that India or China or Bangdlesh is gettina middle class. Are you the racist? Are you the one that's IMPLYING that all of America's middle class is WHITE?? Cuz it sure sounds like that. (psst caucasians live in other countries, too).

[HughBeaumont]

101. Small wonder why I dropped him from my sight.

"Dem" my ass. First of all, did anyone mention race at ALL in this thread? Nobody really cares about nationality in regard to this; frankly, it could be ANYone getting jobs from American MNCs . . . other than American citizens; the argument is about destroying one middle class to lift another. Our middle class, WHICH I mentioned previously, has thousands of nationalities. I'm part Italian descended from Sicilia, so I must have some African blood in me from centuries past.

Yeah, I'm a xenophobe Buchananite redneck racist. What the fuck ever. My nephew is 1/8th African American. My BIL is biracial. I'm related to three lesbians. Most of the people I work with directly are from other countries. I attended three civil and human rights rallies in the past 10 years. So I'm not about to play back and forth with someone who pulls that shit. Jesus Christ.

Also, call my wife, who agrees with me on this, a redneck xenophobe. PLEASE. I beg you. She's a lefty's lefty and a social worker with at least 25% of her caseload being victims of this very practice, often multiple times, resulting in depression and alcoholism. She said "he should take a trip to Northeast Ohio sometime if he thinks job offshoring is so great."

[VirginiaDem]

105. I do have this effect on the closed-minded. n/t

[VirginiaDem]

103. I'm not calling you a racist.

I said that I suspected there would be a strong correlation between racism and not caring about other countries' middle classes. Of course, there are Caucasians in other countries and there are many races in this country but someone who doesn't give an "f" about other countries' middle classes very well might do so because they don't give an "f" about other countries' citizens generally, which is a true and dear tenet for racists of all, well, races.

So, no, I'm not calling you a racist. I'm saying you got something very important in common--not caring about the "other".

[JCMach1]

58. a fine example is how JEBtm outsourced State of Florida

HR services. The company who took the contract (one with Repug ties of course) immediately moved the jobs offshore.

GOVERMENT JOBS! That isn't even a free market thing! Government jobs!

[JCMach1]

59. it's time for FAIR TRADE, not free trade and FAIR LABOR

practices to ensure that companies that are selling goods and services within the U.S. are meeting US labor practices. If not, place a tariff on such activities until they comply. Outsourcing would begin reversing in a heartbeat...

[Algorem]

64. they love him there too

http://www.cantonrep.com.nyud.net:8090/photos/February2006/24muslim.jpg

Indian Kashmiri Shiite Muslims shout anti-U.S. slogans as they burn an effigy of U.S. President George W. Bush during a protest in Srinagar, India, Friday. The Shiite Muslims were protesting against the bombing of the major Shiite Askariya Shrine in the Iraqi northern town of Samarra.

Muslims killing each other in Iraq after mosque bombing
Friday, February 24, 2006
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=271256&r=0&Category=11

[leesa]

70. Bush and his budddies are making tons of money! Thanks America!

We are just one BIG piggy bank to them.

[w8liftinglady]

74. maybe someone can forward Lou Dobbs list of outsorcing companies

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/
Exporting America: List of companies exporting jobs

[progressivebydesign]

75. What a fucking asshole.

Yeah... Indians are buying air conditioners made by companies who do biz in America, but outsource the manufacturing of said air conditioners to Mexico, then the American companies hide their profits in offshore countries.

[flashdebadge]

106. tech jobs to India + Pizza = Fat Indians (n/t)

[lovuian]

107. India has the communist party and its workers strike

with their labor unions... someday this will haunt the corporations...

[barb162]

110. outsource shrub to India

[paineinthearse]

113. Let them eat pizza

The utter arrogance!

And with regard to Indians purchasing hard goods from GE and Whirlpool and Westinghouse, that would be fine had those companies not moved their manufacturing operations to Mexico under NAFTA.