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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:27 AM
Original message
White House 'Discovers’ 250 Emails Related to Plame Leak
White House 'Discovers’ 250 Emails Related to Plame Leak
By Jason Leopold
t r u t h o u t | Report

Friday 24 February 2006

The White House turned over last week 250 pages of emails from Vice President Dick Cheney’s office. Senior aides had sent the emails in the spring of 2003 related to the leak of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald revealed during a federal court hearing Friday.

The emails are said to be explosive, and may prove that Cheney played an active role in the effort to discredit Plame Wilson’s husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, a vocal critic of the Bush administration’s prewar Iraq intelligence, sources close to the investigation said.

Sources close to the probe said the White House “discovered” the emails two weeks ago and turned them over to Fitzgerald last week. The sources added that the emails could prove that Cheney lied to FBI investigators when he was interviewed about the leak in early 2004. Cheney said that he was unaware of any effort to discredit Wilson or unmask his wife’s undercover status to reporters.

Cheney was not under oath when he was interviewed. He told investigators how the White House came to rely on Niger documents that purportedly showed that Iraq had tried to purchase uranium from the African country.
(snip/...)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/022406Y.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jason Leopold spent two years covering California's electricity crisis as Los Angeles bureau chief of Dow Jones Newswires. Jason has spent the last year cultivating sources close to the CIA leak investigation, and is a regular contributer to t r u t h o u t.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. which tells you
that there are many, many more that haven't been released.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Did Ken Starr have to wait for Clinton and his group to hand over
data? Or did he go on search and fish missions of his own?
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. Yes.
Remember the Hillary files that just "appeared" one day?

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Dem2theMax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm shocked I tell you. Shocked!
And if you believe that....

I swear, it's almost like reading a fairy tale.

I'm sitting here shaking my head back and forth. Just cannot believe this gang of liars and thieves.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
37. Lying to a Federal Investigator is a Federal Offense- ASK MARTHA STEWART
She went to jail for this one and only conviction-lying to a Federal Investigator--not insider trading-

So Cheney can do some time too now--I mean fair is fair right?
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. FITZ needs to subpoena the White House IT Staff.
The IT Staff can find all of it on back up servers. If the data was wiped from that as well...then it's obvious the data was deliberately erased.
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Carrion Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Could it be?
That the Bush people are throwing Cheney to the wolves?

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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Perhaps.
We can only wait and see how this one shakes out. :shrug:
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
49. Cheney knows too much to be "thrown to the wolves". And
besides that, who in the administration is powerful enough to make such a decision.

Regarding the "found" e-mails, my guess is that they will only contain information that the administration wishes to be seen. E-mails are easy to edit. The trick is to make sure there are no unedited versions floating around.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Being under oath doesn't mean Cheney should have lied
everybody is after Cheney...

and for good reason

halliburton's profits were up 292% this year...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. If Dick lied, its still Obstruction of Justice (5 years for each offense)
All those lies add up to a life in hell sentence.:evilgrin: :bounce: :party:
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LiberalHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think it's actually 250 pages of emails, not 250 emails...
There could be more than one email per page, right?
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
36. I would guess less than one per page (one email would span a few pages)
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. How shocking!!!! I would have .......
....never thought Cheney knew anything about the Plame leaks. How absolutely shocking!!!!!! :sarcasm:
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Sounds like a "putsch" is in the making.........
perhaps * is taking Cheney hunting.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Sort of like when a guy's wife "discovers" pornographic pictures on...
...her husbands Laptop Computer right?

"...Honey, I don't know where those came from, I think they come in the SPAM I get." :shrug: :blush: :evilgrin:
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. HOW many times have they pulled this cheap stunt now?
only EVERY time they are told to produce ANY sort of information, they later 'find' some MORE stuff, usually just before some deadline or another. its criminal. what's more, is i am CERTAIN some of these emails will be complete and utter fakes, fakes hidden in a pile of real ones. and how to tell which ones are fake? the fake ones will, of course be helpful to libby's defence.
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mallard Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Re: yes, sounds like they found a loophole...
... carefully buried in the in retrieved evidence.

Attempts to oust Fitzgerald and the Libby indictment suggest authority to commit treason ouweighs authority to prosecute.

What will they think of next?
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. I doubt that they're "explosive".
They wouldn't have "discovered" them if they were.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. Interesting idea--that there could be fake emails planted in the 250 pages
Edited on Sat Feb-25-06 09:00 AM by Peace Patriot
of emails the purpose of which we cannot even fathom yet--and also fake sentences and other facts within otherwise authentic emails. The fake material could possibly be figured out by means of internal inconsistencies, or inconsistency with other known facts. Although they've given themselves lots and lots of time to invent whatever facts they think they need, the Bush junta is not all that clever; they rely on secrecy and thuggery and money to accomplish their purposes, and the lapdog press and lapdog Congress have schooled them in intellectual laziness. In other words, they can't be bothered with much intellectual effort; they believe they can get away with murder (probably quite literally--as well as figuratively), so it might not be that difficult to sort out the fake from the real. In addition, there are the computers themselves. I don't know what powers Fitzgerald may have to seize the machines, if he suspects fakery. Expert examination of the machines might reveal false dates, etc.

I don't think the search for fake material should be limited to items that are helpful to Libby's defense. We don't know what purposes the "White House" might have in producing fake facts. For instance, if Traitorgate involved the murder of the British chief weapons expert David Kelly (which I and others suspect), and those in the White House who doctored the emails were out to remove any tracks to that crime, there could be deleted or phony material that only someone looking for that connection would notice, and it might not seem to be related to Libby's defense on the perjury/obstruction charges or to the Plame outing itself.

I am intrigued by the fact that Judith Miller wanted to limit her testimony on her meetings with Libby just to the matter of Plame/Wilson, not other things that they discussed. She made quite a point of it in her jail negotiations. There are many possibilities as to what else they discussed, that Miller would want to conceal--but she knew Kelly; they'd written a book together and he was whistleblowing in England along the same lines as Wilson--exaggerated pre-war WMD intel--on a hauntingly parallel time-time with the Plame outing.

Time-line: Kelly began whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC in late May 2003; he was outed to his bosses, by an unknown party, and interrogated in late June; Blair was informed that Kelly knew something more damaging on July 7, the day after Wilson published his article; Plame was outed by Novak July 14; Kelly was found dead under highly suspicious circumstances four days later (July 18); his office and computers were searched, and four days after that (July 22), Brewster-Jennings, the entire CIA counter-proliferation network with which Plame was associated, was outed (also by Novak). Another intriguing fact: One of Kelly's last emails, on the day he died (July 17) was to his old colleague Judith Miller. In it he expressed concern about the "many dark actors playing games." Miller wrote Kelly's obit for the NYT and failed to disclose this email or her close connections to Kelly; this came out later when Kelly's family released his emails.

Theory: The WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate is that the Bush junta had a plan in motion to plant WMDs in Iraq; that the plan was foiled (obviously); that Kelly found out about it, or helped foil it; that, since he was already whistleblowing, he was a great threat and had to be killed; and that Plame/BJ were outed, not because of Wilson's publication July 6 (or not primarily because of it), but because of a (theorized) Blair phone call to Bush July 7 about Kelly, which prompted the Bushites to act immediately--and quite precipitously, putting many top Bushites at great risk--to silence and/or punish Plame/BJ/CIA for doing its job of counter-proliferation (stopping the WMD planting). And there is a Part 1 to this plot, involving the Niger forgeries and Wilson (that the "crudeness" of the Niger forgeries--they were very easily detectable as forgeries--was deliberate; they were intended to be exposed as forgeries, in order to bait the CIA into a public position of no nukes in Iraq; then to discredit the CIA when the planted nukes were "found.")

There are some very good reasons to suspect a Plame/Kelly connection, besides the striking coincidence of dates. For one thing, Bush and Blair were in close communication at that time, and had a mutual interest in concealing their tissue of lies about Iraq (and any associated skulduggery--such as trying to plant WMDs in Iraq). And there is also a possible Rumsfeld connection to Plame/Kelly that might be hidden in Cheney emails. (Rumsfeld is the one who set Miller up in Iraq, with the US troops, to be the reporter on the spot when they "found" the WMDs that they all knew did not exist.)

Speaking of a "tissue of lies," here's an interesting sentence in Jason Leopold's article on Cheney's lies about his role in outing Plame:

"Some of the (Cheney aides) emails that were turned over to Fitzgerald contained references to Plame Wilson's identity and CIA status, **and developments related to the inability of ground forces to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after the start of the war in March 2003."** (emphasis added)

We need to remember how closely the two things were related at that time--Wilson's exposure of the Niger forgeries, and the "hunt" for WMDs. There were dramatic daily headlines--"yes, we found them!", "oops, no, we didn't" (for months)--with Miller in a high profile position, and so anxious about the "search" that she became a positive annoyance to local commanders.

Leopold writes that "The emails are said to be explosive." Here's one way that they are explosive. Contrary to all previous Cheney statements, "...the emails...will show that the vice president spearheaded an effort in March 2003 to attack Wilson’s credibility **and used the CIA to dig up information on the former ambassador that could be used against him...". ** (emphasis added)

This has to be a crime. I don't know what the statute might be--against "using the CIA" to get dirt on a political opponent--but surely there must be one (unless the junta has rescinded that law, too, by secret "executive order").

So, if the WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate is true, Cheney "using the CIA" to try to destroy Wilson occurred amidst mounting anxiety about the failure of their plan to plant WMDs in Iraq, and the Bushites were then pushed into panic mode when they learned from Blair that Kelly was onto them, and further learned, after Kelly was dead, and in the course of the Plame outing (to the July 22 date, the Brewster-Jennings outing) details of how the BJ counter-proliferation network got onto their plan and foiled it (possibly without knowing it was being directed from the White House or the Pentagon--that is, possibly only seeing Manucher Ghorbanifar's tail disappearing around a corner). (Ghorbanifar is the notorious Iranian arms dealer who was present at the Rome meeting in 2001--that included Michael Ladeen and other Neo-Cons--where the Niger forgeries were likely concocted. He was known to the CIA as a disseminator of disinformation. He may also be the one who was to procure the illicit WMDs and get them into Iraq.)

There are a number of potentially explosive things in Leopold's article, involving likely Cheney destruction of emails, Alberto Gonzales concealment/withholding of emails, and a new whistleblower (someone working at the NSC). Excessive secrecy, destruction of documents, guilty behavior, and panic are all evident. (Gonzales was the one who gave White House aides prior notice of the Fitzgerald investigation--and 12 hours or so to trash emails and shred documents.)

I was quite struck, early on, by the evidence of panic in the Bush junta's outing of Plame. They contacted at least SIX reporters--six journalist witnesses to treason--in one week (July 6-14), apparently in a frantic search for a patsy to out Plame immediately (and/or, in a wild, scattershot method of dropping the seed all over town, to make her identity bounce back at them and make it look like they didn't disclose it). This was a very crude and highly risky method of "punishing" Wilson. A deeper motive--to silence/punish Plame--seems likely. And the outing of the Brewster-Jennings network--putting all U.S. agents and contacts around the world at risk of getting killed--seems way, way beyond the supposed "punish Wilson" objective. It is "aid and comfort to the enemy," and if, as Bush claims as an excuse on other matters (such as domestic spying), we are "at war," then the destroyers of the Plame/BJ operation are in fact traitors, by definition.

They destroyed--and put at great risk--a network of spies and contacts who were working to keep us safe from the odd WMD that might cross our borders or those of our allies, and harm many people. They were thus familiar with--and were watching--illicit movements of arms all over the world, and, in that process, may have tripped over Ghorbanifar and caught him or others sneaking nukes into Iraq. That was their job. And whether the WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate is true, or not, they all got a nice thanks from the U.S. government for trying to keep us safe--possibly a bullet in the head, in some cases. This seems quite excessive as "punishment" of one ex-diplomat dissenter, whose article and interviews might otherwise have slipped on by in the illusion-land of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, where all dissent from this junta eventually disappears and is forgotten.

I also sense anger and revenge in the Bushites' hearts--beyond what a mere dissenter might cause. (The "Rovian revenge" story was suspicious from the beginning.) And what I'm sensing in their behavior is possibly aggravation at nifty plans foiled (planted nukes, a triumphant "find"), and the consequent desire to...um...put a shotgun blast in the faces of those who foiled them? (Actually, I think Rumsfeld is the most guilty--the mastermind--and he probably handles firearms with perfect control.) What they did to Plame/BJ is a metaphorical shotgun blast--or maybe machine gun spray is more accurate. For an article, for a book, written by her HUSBAND? ALL the U.S. agents/contacts she was running, all over the world, put at risk?

There is something about this case that has them REALLY, REALLY worried--worried then, worried now. Bush could have gone on TV and admitted the outing long ago--and tried to excuse it as political zeal, or war worries, or whatever--and the lapdog press would have called it forgivable and even noble. They could have stopped this in its tracks. Instead, they're treating it like a Pandora's box, to be covered up at any cost--most likely because that's what it IS, a snake-filled horror chest of Bush junta crimes.

Who knows what may be hidden in these recently disclosed emails--or in the emails that Cheney's office has tried to destroy (or that were not "preserved through the normal archiving process on the White House computer system," as Fitzgerald politely puts it), or that are being withheld for "national security" reasons by Bush Cartel toady Gonzales?

Fitzgerald has the authority to pursue any related crime. I hope that the right questions are being asked, and the right clues are being pursued, to get to the bottom of what I perceive as panic and rush in the Bush junta's outing of Plame. There is more here than "punishing" Wilson. And the coincidence of dates with the events in England (re David Kelly) are just too striking to be ignored.
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Frank Cannon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Well said. I agree.
It's appalling how our Pravda media pretends that the real issue is whether Cheney had the authority to declassify documents or not. That's bullshit. The real issue is whether he committed treason against the US or not. And if he was the one that outed a covert operative and shut down her entire anti-WMD network, he did.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. yeah right
and bush* didn't know anything about it
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
12. Ummm...I thought lying to an FBI investigator was a felony...
regardless of whether you were under oath or not.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Yes, but don't expect the M$M to admit that
That's what Martha Stewart went to jail for, lying to investigators even though she wasn't under oath.

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. Gee, Pat, I know it's weird but they weren't there two months ago...
Funny how the WH finds things shortly after Fitzgerald makes known he has an alternative source. It was about 2 weeks ago that someone was leaking that Fitzgerald was aware of these.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
16. "Discovered" 250 email pages that are "explosive" & implicate Cheney, eh?
Edited on Sat Feb-25-06 06:27 AM by Nothing Without Hope
Sounds like the WH reall is going to try to rein him in or dump him. Either way, looks like everything will be blamed on him so that Bush, Rice, Rummy and the others can escape blame yet again.

Of course, any emails implicating Bush were destroyed long ago. If these are authentic - and I am unconvinced of that - they are a highly selective set. I wonder how they can determine authenticity at this point?

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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. "how they can determine authenticity"
of emails? Ask the NSA or the DoD,... Maybe some overseas monitors also.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. I've often wondered about that airplane or missile or whatever it was that
hit the Pentagon with Rumsfeld inside--and Cheney off in a bunker somewhere, sending the only two Air Force fighter jets availabe that day (ahem) to New York, leaving our nation's capitol and the Pentagon unprotected.

Could it be that the Dark Lords of the Bush junta are at war with each other?
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mithnanthy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. I remember reading...
that A SECTION of the Pentagon had just been reinforced and remodeled and completed right before 9/11. I figured it was to keep the rest of the Pentagon from being distroyed during the attack.
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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. They were under the sofa cushions, with those missing WMDs
Always the last place you look...

mikey_the_rat
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:09 AM
Original message
years to "vet" 250 emails that amount to...
the sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
18. years to "vet" 250 emails that amount to...
the sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Cheney 'peppered' up side the head with some emails
nt
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antonialee839 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Too Funny!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. Cheney would lie to the FBI?
who'd a thunk it. Man has demonstrated that he is as dishonest as a three dollar bill.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
24. And now for the tinfoil theory....Cheney won't suffer because
Bush gave him permission to classify/declassify information and he didn't "lie", he just kept the info "classified".... or "reclassified" it after giving Libby the go-ahead.

It's all going to come down to the "we got the power" defense. Then again, maybe that doesn't need tinfoil...
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. No tinfoil for that line of defense at all - it's standard for them. I do
wonder - if these really were uncovered 2 weeks ago, is that what had Cheney a bit "pre-occupied" on his hunting trip? Was he out on a "mission" to vent and let off some steam? Nothing like a little booze and blasting a shotgun to relax and relieve the pressures of the day.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
50. Yes, I think you are right. "We got the power," and with Alito and Roberts
now alongside Scalia and the others in their packed court, they are counting on making it "legal" by winning approval for an unchecked presidency in the Supreme Court.

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Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. WH is throwing Cheney under the bus. Opportunity to hand-pick a successor
The sudden 'find' of email implicating Cheney in the Plame investigation tells me that * has finally 'had it' with DeadEye Dick and his runnings amuck.

For Bush, this action represents a 'two fer one' opportunity:
1) By cutting Cheney (the man who established a shadow presidency complete with undeclared unilateral power to declassify) Bush reconsolidates presidential powers into the Office of the President alone.
2) Cheney has become an political albatross to * and 'his legacy'. By dumping DeadEye, * has an opportunity to select a successor to the presidency (Condi, McCain, etc.) who might extend 'the legacy' - a notion which seems to fixate Jr. these days.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
42. Definitely plausible, that the "aspens" are dumping Cheney out, but
not plausible that Bush "has finally 'had it' with him. Bush just doesn't have that kind of...what is it? intelligence? political savvy? He's a child-man, a spoiled rich jerk, whose every mistake and disaster has been covered up by money (or worse), and whose absolute and total political ineptness was covered up by Diebold/ES&S (2004) (and by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies' coverup of their exit polls). I was thinking, prior to that election, that the Machivellian thing for Bush to do--what all kings and emperors and tyrants and dictators have done--would be a purge; mainly, dump Cheney, and maybe Rumsfeld, too. (Poor Machiavelli--a very maligned thinker.) Say, back in spring '04. Get thee gone, Iraq War Incompetents, Breakers of the Law against torture, etc., etc.

But that was back then, before I fully realized just how non-transparent the vote tabulation was--controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, using "trade secret," proprietary programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls, as arranged by Tom Delay and Bob Ney (with the $4 billion HAVA electronic voting boondoggle). Things were being "fixed" for Bush Jr. once again. The crimes of the people who are supposedly "under" his direction could not touch him, because there was in place no system of accountability. (A toady Congress; a toady Supreme Court who had put him in power illegally, in the first place; a toady press--and no transparency in the voting system.) He has no need to think for himself--not even as a dictator. He is not an independent personality. And he lacks even the ability to pump himself up and create an idea of himself as "father of his country"--or whatever dictators tell themselves--to be able to see the need for a purge; the need to clean out nests of powermongers who think they are above the king, and who also can be blamed for all problems; and indeed who must be removed before they get too ambitious and try to topple the tyrant.

True, Stalin also had control of vote tabulation, as have other dictators (who have pretended to be "democratic"). But there are nevertheless currents of dissent, as well as entrenched toady power, that need to be dealt with (if one is to dicatate). Bush is immunized from those currents of dissent, by the fixed voting machines--and is too stupid to realize that there are OTHER ways that a dicatator can fail, and be toppled, besides legitimate elections--for instance, by unpopular and threatening entrenchments, by in-fighting, by arrogance and ambition among those around him, and by hubris.

In short, I don't think he has the power--or the personal command of himself--to oust Cheney. Others may be doing so. Not Bush.

Also, nothing that Cheney has done would be a scandal to Bush. He more than likely snickers at, and admires, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's worse deeds. Cheney "running amok" wouldn't be a concept that he could grasp. I'm sure he believes himself and all of puppetmasters and minions to be above the law.

So, whoever the back room people are (James Baker, Daddy Bush, Prince Bandar, George Schultz, Howard Ahmanson?), they will preserve Bush Jr. from serious or legal-type taint, and impeachment. They may blame it all on Cheney, but give him a smoothed exit. He may be gone to sandier pastures (the UAE?). (--oilier pastures?). (Head of UAE/US port facilities which, combined with his Louisiana/Katrina takings, would make him Emperor of the Entire Perimeter of the U.S., to be ruled over from Dubai? That could be the deal--how they got Cheney to leave relatively quietly and not to rat on Junior.)

Thence to the fresh new face as V-P--which will consume all war profiteering corporate news monopoly chatter, and suck up all the air, for the next two years. And, depending on how Fresh Face works out, they may Diebold him/her into office in '08, or could possibly go with Hillary, if Bush financial and foreign policy shit finally starts hitting the fan. (They will want to blame the Democrats--but they will need a War Democrat who will not seriously investigate them, and will serve as a placeholder, to put down the food riots and so on--and get them a military Draft--while they set things up for '12. Rumsfeld? Jeb? The real Hitler, I suspect--whose draconian use of the extra-legal powers that Bush Jr. is setting up will be needed to remedy "HILLARY's disastrous regime.") (Look out, Hillary! I hope you know what you're doing!)

Ah, me.

These dark scenarios can be avoided by means of election reform. We must throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

We still have a window of opportuntiy to do so. Control over election systems still resides at the state/local level, where ordinary peole still have some influence--and there are many on-going local efforts to achieve transparent elections. But right now in Pennsylvania, Repugs and bad Democrats are in cahoots with Gonzales/DoJ to deprive Pennsylvanians of their U.S. Constitutional right to determine how they vote. Citizens have filed suit to stop ES&S machines, based on the PA state Constitutional provision that voters must vote on new election systems. The U.S. Constitution gives control over voting systems to the states--so the PA law has strong underpinnings. The bad guys are saying that Tom Delay's and Bob Ney's election theft bill--HAVA--trumps both the U.S. and PA Constitutions. An absurd argument on its face. Local judge didn't buy it. He said they have to use PAPER BALLOTS in federal elections this year, until PA voters get to vote on ES&S/electronic voting systems. But if the cahoosters have their way--and the DoJ appeals--just imagine it coming before Roberts' SCOTUS, who might feel sorry for that poor, maligned, rightwing-funded corporation, ES&S (spinoff of Diebold), deprived of its God-given* right to taxpayers' money, and just trying to do everybody the favor of real fast election results. See: www.votepa.us.

-----

*(ES&S was initally funded by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave a million dollars to the nutso 'Christian' Chalcedon Foundation, whose name goes back to the 451 A.D. Church Council of Chalcedon, where God and Emperor were firmly cemented together, and all dissenting Christian groups were expunged, and Pagans and Jews took additional hits of pogroms and anathematization.) (The Chalcedon Foundation touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things.)





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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. Howard Ahmanson and the Chalcedon Org. is some SCARY SHIT.
Just did some Wikipedia on that crazy Xtian NAZI fuck...this is some scary shit. Thanks for alerting me to the presence of a "legitimized" Xtian neofascist movement. It's high time to shine some sunshine on people who expouse that "Christianty and Democracy are incompatible."

JB
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
29. I think Cheney will resign due to 'health reasons'
He is 'suffering' way too much stress from shooting his hunting buddy, he doesn't want to end up with more heart problems
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wordpix2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
57. I agree---but he should be prosecuted for his crimes
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. DISCOVERED LAST WEEK?
Imagine this scenario.
"Dick, it's George."
"Yeah, what is it?"
"Dick, either you give a public news conference and apologize or I want your resignation on my desk by tomorrow 8am EST."
"Look, George, I made you, you aren't going to push me around."
"Dick, every single thing you told me was a lie. I was a fool to believe you. And now, you are dragging me down with your fucking drunk-fuck-shoot fest with whatshername. Either it's a complete press conference and an apology, or you are gone."
"Fuck you, Mr. President, I am staying put."

* * *
"Karl, did you get all of that?"
"Yes, Mr. President. I heard. He sounded both drunk and drunk with power again."
"Karl, you know what to do."
"Yes sir, I have found 250 "new" e-mails that the VP tried to lose."
"Go ahead. send em out."
"Consider him gone, sir."
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. Boy.....forget the e-mails....Can't wait to hear some voices on tape!!!
If they're around!!!
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. They do a lot of video conferences. I wonder if they keep logs or records.
I'd bet that Cheney would have said a few interesting things.
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antonialee839 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. New White House strategery: Throw Cheney overboard.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
55. Or, would they "conveniently" forget to charge the defibrillator battery?
Cheney could either be actively thrown out of office, which would carry some backlash risk with their Repuke fascist base. Or, he could meet with an unfortunate accident or health problem, which would solve their problem without alienating their base. The temptation to do the latter must be very great. If I were Cheney, I would be carrying my own heart device batteries these days and avoid small plane trips (a la Wellstone).

JB
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
35. Open season on Republicans
It's every Repug for themselves, now. They're all in there fighting amongst themselves, and they plan to keep the winners.

Couldn't happen to a nicer, more deserving bunch of people criminals.
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kayice Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Nothing like a bunch of narcissists imploding on who is finally
determined the King. B*sh, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove----take your pick.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
38. Have they quietly decided to cut Cheney loose?
I know their marching orders came through on FOX several days ago.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
41. A Diebold software was able to retrieve them.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. It doesn't matter if Cheney was under oath or not when he talked with
Edited on Sat Feb-25-06 12:46 PM by 1monster
FBI investigators. If you lie to a officer of the law who is conducting an investigation, you are guilty of obstruction of justice, among other things.

This Administration seems to believe that if they are not under oath, they have no obligation to testify truthfully. That simply is not true. And it may be possible to have perjury charges brought against someone who has not taken an oath if he/she lies (materially) to an official body in an official session.

The sources added that the emails could prove that Cheney lied to FBI investigators when he was interviewed about the leak in early 2004. Cheney said that he was unaware of any effort to discredit Wilson or unmask his wife’s undercover status to reporters.

Cheney was not under oath when he was interviewed. He told investigators how the White House came to rely on Niger documents that purportedly showed that Iraq had tried to purchase uranium from the African country.

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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Interesting I hope you are right.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
46. Sounds like Bushco wants
to get rid of Cheney.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
47. This means Fitz already had some of them from other sources
probably the recipients of the mail. It was either "discover" them or get charged with destruction of evidence for the White House.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. That makes the most sense.
Although I would love for shrub to lose Deadeye Dick
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
51. I spotted this last night at 9pm EST in a Forbes article see here:
Edited on Sat Feb-25-06 07:45 PM by stop the bleeding
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=510464&mesg_id=514077

Walton denied a defense request to stop Fitzgerald from filing information that only the judge can review, such as strategy memos and classified information that he wants withheld from Libby's legal team. Walton said he needs to see what Fitzgerald is withholding from the defense to ensure the prosecutor is making the correct call.

The defense was told that the White House had recently located and turned over about 250 pages of e-mails from the vice president's office. Fitzgerald, in a letter last month to the defense, had cautioned Libby's lawyers that some e-mails might be missing because the White House's archiving system had failed.


http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/02/24/ap2552509.html
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wordpix2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-26-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
58. Wh aides have memories as bad as Libby
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