Riots erupt in Dublin

[whirlygigspin]

Hundreds of demonstrators opposed to the 'Love Ulster' rally involving unionists and relatives of IRA murder victims fought running battles with gardai.

Protesters erected barricades and set fire to rubbish bins, traffic cones and wooden pallets as
Security lines were attacked with fireworks, rocks, bottles and metal barricades.

Cars were also set alight close to Leinster House & the Irish Parliament Buildings.

All shops, in one of the city`s main retail districts, shut their doors.

As the trouble worsened the parade through Dublin city centre was cancelled.

Calm was restored some 4 hours after the rioting started.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=70837&pt=n

[Mythsaje]

1. There's a reason they're the "fightin' irish.'

<sigh>

There may be no nation on Earth with a longer history of its people fighting amongst themselves for piddly-ass reasons.

:shrug:

[bettyellen]

2. it's not "amongst themselves" when it's that segregated.

and piddly ass shows what a good grip you have on the issues.

[Mythsaje]

9. At this point in time the issues ARE big

but they haven't always been. The Celtic clans, both Irish and Scot are known for their feuding, and carrying blood feuds through generations.

But they desperately need to understand that they're not serving any good by continuing the chain of violence created by the heavy-handed British rule.

[bettyellen]

39. you saddle the celts with a sterotype created by those who invaded

and occupied them. i've heard that used many times as a reason for why they should be happy that the brits have sorted things out for them.

[Mythsaje]

41. The brits didn't sort anything out...

They made everything much, much worse.

The ancient Celts weren't all that different than the Native American tribes. They fought and brawled amongst themselves, but they did it with a certain rough honor. What the Brits did was bring the conflicts to the lowest common denominator, leading the people into the trap of demonizing those who hold different religious beliefs and making it OKAY to kill them.

Christianity was NOT a boon for these people.

[bettyellen]

46. you're promoting negative sterotypes here about the irish.

the brits sorting stuff out was sarcasm. they invaded and colonised these people, and then blame them for it, by claiming they are savages. much as you do.

[Mythsaje]

50. The brits called EVERYONE savages...

Doesn't make it true.

The Celts had an empire while the Brits were still trying to sort out their warring tribes. Sure, they were clannish, with each Clan headed by a rustic King of some sort, but this didn't make them savages.

But they DID fight amongst themselves. And harbor long-standing grudges. Which I believe the Brits capitalized on.

[jwirr]

131. Yes England did capitalize on the fighting and distrust

that was a part of life in those days. While reading history I have often thought that they could have conquered England if they had ever been able to unite for any length of time. They believed in their cause. Yes I know they followed Wallace & then Bruce but that was a short period of their total history. I would have liked to have seen the kind of world we would have now if the freedom loving Scots had joined together and triumphed totally.

[cantstandbush]

133. Being called "savages" by imperialists is really stunning. n/t

[hedgehog]

52. Tell that to the Bog Man

[cantstandbush]

132. Sorta the same thing as we say about the Islamic sects.... n/t

[hedgehog]

31. "Fighting Irish" ? "Piddly ass"?

If you used those terms about any other ethnic group, you'd be blasted off the board as a racist.

I'm not sure what's going on in Dublin today, but I do know that all too often Americans and Irish-Americans spout off about current events in Ireland with only a vague notion of what's going on. Ireland today isn't the Ireland our grandparents left; it isn't even the Ireland of ten years ago. I'm Irish-American myself, but I don't think that gives me the right to stick my nose (or my money) into Irish politics.

[Mythsaje]

35. I really wish they'd stop killing each other...

and learn to recognize themselves as one people and one nation, artificial religious barriers notwithstanding.

The Brits USED their passions, and their seemingly inherent need to foster long-standing grudges, against them, and they're still being manipulated in much the same way. For a place with such a legacy of poetry, law, literature, and song, it sure as hell has too bloody a history.

[bettyellen]

42. their inherant need for to foster grudges? how racist can you get?

[Mythsaje]

49. Did you not see the word "seemingly?"

or are you just ignoring it?

The Celts are notorious for this sort of thing...even here on American soil the infamous Hatfield/McCoy feud is well known.

And who am I being racist against, specifically? The Irish? Last I checked they were Caucasion. Just another kind of white folk. With a particularly long, bloody history.

And all so goddam unnecessary too.

[bettyellen]

58. you say the celts are notorious for this "sort of thing"

did you forget to use the word seemingly this time?
just like you forgot the famile, or else you might not have used the word piddling, eh?
your spotty knowledge of the history of the celtic race (yes, race) has led you astray, sounds like you've read alot of UK propaganda. bt even the brits aren't naive enogugh to claim it's just a bunch of white people.
next you'll be saying it's about religion! :rofl:

[Mythsaje]

60. Religion is a tool

used to divide the people to make it easier to occupy the nation. I understand that much.

And I'll admit that my knowledge of Celtic history goes a lot farther back than their modern troubles. I think they were used and manipulated and are just now pulling themselves out of that pit. I had a lot of hope when I heard the IRA had voluntarily disarmed itself, but stuff like this riot is bound to stoke the fires again.

[bettyellen]

64. your knowledge of irish history seems to overshadow the current reality

completely. it is not about religion at all. it is about land, power, being a third class citizen in your own land.
clans are completely irrelevant.

[Catrina]

65. The 'Celts' were not only Irish ~ of course there were battles

over a thousand years ago throughout Europe for land, for power ~ why mention it only in reference to the Irish? The Brits, the French, the Germans, the Italians, all fought amongst themselves. Sounds like you heard that from the POV of beaten down Irish ancestors who accepted their lot in life as described by the British overlords, frustrated by those who refused to accept the lot proscribed by the invaders.

There were plenty of terrified Irish citizens, cowed by the occupiers who were scared also by those with the spirit and courage to stand up to the occupiers, many times their own relatives. It is from them, desperately willing to accept even occupation, rather than fight, who passed this meme down through the generations ~ unwittingly accepting the role of abused and oppressed and blaming the victim. That was the story of Ireland, and the story the British ruler wanted, but secretly I suspect, even though a major thorn in their side, admired the fighters more than the victims who accepted their lot in life.

It's rarely a majority who bring about change, or who have the courage to fight for it. And those who do are often vilified by their own, until they succeed. It took over 800 years to achieve that success for Ireland, and now look at it compared to what it was under British occupation. Thanks to those who gave their lives and refused to accept the image or the role created for them by their overlords.

Try to learn more about the history of Ireland, it's instructive also as a lesson in why occupation and invasion is never, ever a good thing ~ and why when a 'leader' like Bush starts talking about 'spreading democracy' people should be very wary ~

[Mythsaje]

67. I understand the Hunger Strike

was practically invented in Ireland as a way to protest the landowners.

And Ireland was inhabited by the Picts and the Fomarians before the Celts ever arrrived (allegedly from somewhere near India.)

But the Celts quickly dominated the island.

Edited to add information

[Bridget Burke]

150. And the Irish are not only "Celts"....

The word was invented by Greeks & adapted by the Romans to describe certain European tribes. There's also a Celtic branch of the Indo-European languages.

Nobody called themselves a "Celt" until the 16th century. Antiquarians revived the word to refer to the "natives" of the fringes of the British Isles. Even then, "Celt" was usually used to describe the Other. Those Celts--fine singers & good fighters, but they can't get organized. This childish folk should be ruled by the stolid Saxons!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

There is no archaeological evidence for Celtic invaders slaughtering the Irish & taking over. I strongly recommend Bob Quinn's "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental & Maritime Heritage." (The title refers to the ancient cultures of the Atlantic rim--not Atlantis!)

Irish identity is best understood from a maritime perspective. For eight millennia the island has been a haven for explorers, settlers, colonists, navigators, pirates and traders, absorbing goods and peoples from all points of the compass. The reduction of the islanders to the exclusive category 'Celtic' has persisted for three hundred years, and is here rejected as impossibly narrow. No classical author ever described Ireland's inhabitants as 'Celts', and neither did the Irish so describe themselves until recent times. The islanders' sea-girt culture has been crucially shaped by Middle Eastern as well as by European civilizations, by an Islamic heritage as well as a Christian one. The Irish language itself has antique roots extended over thousands of years' trading up and down the Atlantic seaways.

Over the past twenty years Bob Quinn has traced archaeological, linguistic, religious and economic connections from Egypt to Arann, from Morocco to Newgrange, from Cairo and Compostela to Carraroe. Taking Conamara sean-nos singing and its Arabic equivalents, and a North African linguistic stratum under the Irish tongue, Quinn marshalls evidence from field archaeology, boat-types, manuscript illuminations, weaving patterns, mythology, literature, art and artefacts to support a challenging thesis that cites, among other recent studies of the Irish genome, new mitochondrial DNA analysis in the Atlantic zone from north Iberia to west Scandinavia.

www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?oid=2733139

Quinn is an inspired amateur, but respected scholar Barry Cunliffe wrote the preface to this edition.

The Irish are the Irish, whether their roots are pre-Celtic, Celtic, Danish, Norse or English. That includes the Orangemen--their ancestors moved to Ireland centuries ago. That silly border does not erase this fact.

Sounds like a bunch of hooligans acted up in Dublin. Why is this a reason to speak condescendingly of "The Celts"?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. Not racist, but definitely prejudice.

The Irish are not the only caucausians with a long, bloody history. They, however, are a group that has been persecuted for years, within their own country and within this country. It used to be standard practice for businesses not to hire "micks."

[Mythsaje]

125. I know it...

A long, bloody history is definitely a caucasion trait. It's been said that one of the reasons the white race has been so successful at empire building.

Of course, one might note that the Celts, rather than engaging in empire building, stayed to themselves and didn't march off to war to conquer new lands. They destroyed the Fomarians, allegedly, and claimed the lands for themselves, but, other than engaging in raids and small battles against one another, the various Celtic Clans weren't particularly aggressive.

They DID, however, seem to revel in that sort of thing.

They were treated terribly when they came to this country, suffering some of the worst prejudice of any immigrant population. They're still mocked and reviled by the Brits, one might notice.

Now, if you were suggesting that I'm prejudiced against the Irish, I might point out that I'm mostly Irish and Scot myself, with a smattering of Native American.

[MADem]

137. Now I know you're daft

NORTHERN IRELAND is NOT under the bloody Irish flag. They'd love to recognize themselves as a single nation, only the fucking UK gets in the way. All that north sea oil and industry up in the north are too big a bloody prize to give back to the people they stole it from. The Irish have four green fields, and one of them's in bondage, to quote a well-known song.

Educate yourself: http://www.nio.gov.uk/

[regnaD kciN]

38. Not really...

If you used those terms about any other ethnic group, you'd be blasted off the board as a racist.

Unless it was about the Ay-rabs. You could use much more offensive slurs about them, and be accepted as "mainstream" here...or virtually anywhere else in the U. S. of A.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CountAllVotes]

3. too bad you've never been to northern Ireland

and that you have never seen the irreparable damage done to the Irish people during the Great Famine. It is sad, disgusting, loathsome, criminal ... need I go on?

Piddly-ass reason you say?

No, what it is is just one more example of how you cannot fool all of the people all of the time and that those that ignore the past are condemned to repeat it.

Ireland will never forget its past nor should they. Killing off about 5+ million people isn't something one forgets easily.



:kick:

[Mythsaje]

10. Believe me, I know...

But to continue the violence now simply makes it worse, and damages the fragile peace they've been trying to forge there.

I cry for Ireland. They need to stop this.

[demosincebirth]

20. Very well said!

[bettyellen]

59. exactly, if the OP had been there, they'd know better....

as it does directly impact the lives of thousands of people with catholic roots. they are third class citizens in their own country. and the OP thinks the time of the clans has more relevance for some strange reason.
a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Mythsaje]

66. I'm not the OP

but I'll accept the chastisement. I'm pretty sure it was directed at me.

Maybe I was too flippant in my original post, but this is one of the most irrational conflicts in recent history, with the participants not being of different ethnic or national backgrounds. They're the same people! Celts. Irish Celts. Descendents of a once-proud empire that was a bastion of law BEFORE the Romans ever "civilized" Britain, being led to fight over religious affiliation?

I personally think religion is a stupid thing to fight over (and, frankly, that goes for wherever it's currently being fought over, be it Iraq, Sudan, wherever).

Of course it sucks that the Catholics are being marginalized in their own country (though I stand by my whole view of religious conflicts).

Clan warfare may not have anything to do with the current circumstances, but it's sure a part of history that's still used to justify some of the things that have been done since.

[Catrina]

69. *sigh* ~ the conflict in the North of Ireland was not about religion ~

and no, they two sides are not the 'same' people ~ one side was 'planted' although after generations can now claim to be native, for the sole purpose of stealing and taking over the land of the native Irish ~ you really do need to know more about this. Just because they are all 'white' or because the conflict has been painted by the media as a 'religious' one, does not make it so.

The origins of the 'Protestants' and their roots, are not the same as the origins and roots of the 'Catholics'. That is the only reason for the use of the religious terms, ie, Protestants were the British occupiers, Catholics the Irish people. The battle is not and never was about religion ~ it is about rights stolen by the original occupiers, their descendents being what we now call 'protestants' giving the impression that the battle is religious when it is not.

[Mythsaje]

71. They were colonists?

I was always under the impression that they dived Ireland by force, and converted people by force, and the conflict arose from a deliberate schism erected between the two groups specifically in order to gain control of the land.

That the protestants were colonists makes a certain amount of sense, considering that the British were awfully big on transplanting their people to other places to "civilize" the natives.

It is quite possible that my initial impression was quite mistaken and, if that's the case, I apologize for being such a dimwit about it.

[bettyellen]

77. wow. so that's why you kept saying they were the same people....

i thought that was some sorta new age metaphorical "one people" you were talking about. LOL.
my uncle could map out the land stolen from his family and given to planters like it was yesterday. because the former property owners were treater as slaves on their own land. that's hard to forgive and forget.
while you're reading up, find out what you can about the orange parades and the kind of militant hard ass mentality behind them. the whole purpose is to incite the catholics, they go far out of their way to do it, too.

[Mythsaje]

79. Gotcha.

That explains an awful lot.

Thanks.

[bettyellen]

88. if you want to know more, i'd suggest reading up on

life in the catholic ghettos (andytown) of belfast in the last 30 odd years. it's some scary shit. they were designed to make it easier for the tanks to roll in and round people up. 24/7 surveillance, carting kids off for questioning once they are 16 years of age. searching homes and cars by ripping them apart and leaving them that way.
and it's amazing people think it's all about whether mary was a virgin. LOL. that's what they'd like you to believe.

[Mythsaje]

92. I never thought it was about religion...

I thought religion was just a divisive tactic they used. It is, after all, a pretty handy tool in that regard.

I thought they had the Irish fighting amongst themselves (which, to be frank, is pretty much the case now that generations have passed and the transplants are, more or less, now Irish themselves) but I wasn't aware of how they'd done it.

It's amazing the Brits have such a reputation as a civilized people.

It's too bad they couldn't have taken a page from Ghandi's playbook, but I'd surmise that agent provocateurs amongst the "Orangemen" would've ended any attempt at peaceful protests on the Green side PDQ.

Hell, knowing all this might actually prompt me to actually wear green on St. Paddy's day, even though I am most emphatically not Catholic (or Christian, for that matter) just to show solidarity with what these poor folks have been put through. I refused because I thought I would be showing preference for one side or the other of what I thought to be an internal conflict (provoked from outside, but still internal).

Boy, I really screwed the pooch on this one...I was absolutely wrong here. Thanks for helping to set me straight.

edited to fix a typo

[bettyellen]

96. the civilized people thing is a joke, when you consider the source of

their wealth all these years has depended on enslaving others. i've heard the theory that NI is hard to give up because they don't want to admit all their occupations were wrong.
your welcome, i'm glad catrina showed up, she was beter able to explain things, i took it for granted you understood it was a colony. my uncle could map the land stolen from his family so many generations before, it's hard to let go of when you are still second class in your own homeland.
(BTW: the orange is from king billy, and the dutch roots of part of the english royalty, crazy, huh? jeeze, the royal family isn't even really british, LOL, it boggles the mind)
take care!
:hi:

[redwitch]

104. Ireland has a fascinating history

Read about it and you will be amazed and deeply affected. The conflict has nothing to do with religion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

107. Religion is definitely part of the conflict

The early 17th century colonists from Scotland and England in the "Irish Plantation" were Protestant, and were given lands confiscated from any Irishmen (Catholic) who rebelled against the British crown. So this set up a division in which religion was one obvious sign. When James II & VII, the Catholic king of England and Scotland, was chucked out by the Protestant Parliament in England in 1688, in favour of the Protestant William of Orange (with Scotland following England's lead), James raised a Catholic army in Ireland, and the Protestant colonists fought it, with William coming over from England and eventually winning. The land ownership rules were then very discriminatory against Catholics (and other things, like voting, for the small amount of people who could). So religion has been a significant part of the problem for hundreds of years.

When Home Rule was proposed for Ireland, religion was what caused the partition into 'north and south' - the Protestants in majority in the north, said there would be too much Catholic influence in a united island, and threatened civil war if they didn't get it. The Catholics were then discriminated against in Northern Ireland (they didn't ask someone's views on partition or unification before deciding whether to discriminate - it was based on sect) and that eventually led to the civil rights marches, unrest, bringing in the British army, the Provisional IRA, etc.

Religion has been a major factor in the sad story of Ireland for 400 years.

[CONN]

109. Hmmm.. examples that disprove this myth

All the following are Protestants:

- Charles Stewart Parnell
- Robert Emmett
- Theobold Wolfe Tone

And modern notables there are examples of
- Ivan Cooper MP, for nationalist SDLP and the Derry NICRA
- Coleraine Councillor Billy Leonard is a member of the Irish Nationalist Social Democratic Labour Party

[muriel_volestrangler]

116. "Part of", "a major factor" - I didn't say "all of " n/t

[redwitch]

110. class warfare plain and simple

IMHO

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. Define your classes

Not by income, I'd say - there are, and always have been, rich and poor unionists and nationalists. A lot of the land given to the colonists was taken from rich Catholics who rebelled. So what classes are you thinking of?

[redwitch]

127. the people in charge and the average smucks

keep the average smucks at each others throats and the people in charge can go about their business as long as they keep control and don't let the situation deteriorate into total chaos.

[Catrina]

111. Again, religion merely symbolized either loyalty or disloyalty to the King

England itself was a Catholic country until Henry V111's dispute with the Pope over his divorce. Had the plantation of Ulster happened a little earlier, both sides would have been Catholic.

Imo, the only reason why Ireland remained a Catholic country for so long was because it was forbidden.

Everything that was associated with being 'Irish' was attacked, Catholicism being only one of many 'cultural' issues forbidden by the British.

The Irish language itself was forbidden, the reason why it is no longer spoken. That was one of the successes of the British attempt to totally subjugate the native Irish population. It is more difficult after all, to hide while speaking a language that identifies you as a 'traitor' to the king and the consquences were death.

Even riding bareback was forbidden, being that it was also seen as an identifier of Irish culture.

The most tragic success (aside from the slaughter of the Irish who refused to profess loyalty to the invaders) was probably the destruction of Irish works of literature ~ probably centuries worth of scripts, the only remaining one being the Book of Kells, AIRC.

But their religion was more easily hidden ~ read about the secret places (still available to visit) in Ireland, where the Irish people met and practiced their religion, giving them a sense that at least this would not be taken away from them, and was an act of defiance against the King, however secret.

Also, the Irish were denied education, and the priests were the only real source of knowledge, teaching reading etc in hiding while clinging to whatever they could that identified them as 'Irish'.

So, while religion played a role, as did other factors, the resistence, either then or now, was not about religion.

If you want real proof of this, look at free Ireland today. After centuries of clinging to Catholicism, the Irish people are no longer 'religious' as they were perceived to be before the revolution. I'm not sure they ever were ~

Lost though, is the language among so much else ~ ancient literature, works of art etc. And the denial of education (still prevalent in the North of Ireland until the more recent resistance against these tactics) probably stifled so much talent ~ although not all.

When I see the destruction today in Iraq of all those incredible works of art, the raiding of the museums, I am reminded of Ireland's irretrievable losses during the time of occupation. I never thought the US would engage in such a crime ~ :cry:

All I'm saying is it is way too simplistic to say that religion per se is the cause of any of the conflict in NI. Only in the sense that it was used, not only against the Irish, but also against the British themselves by their own rulers (think of Thomas Beckett, eg).

But that's just my opinion and I know it won't change any minds ~ I just feel that all attempts to make religion the main cause of conflicts, as in the ME, often hides the true reasons for wars, which invariably throughout history, have been as they are now, greed, lust for power etc.

As Michael Ledeen says 'soldiers need to have a religion when we send them to war, because if they end up feeling the war is not worth dying for and they have no belief in an after-life, they would be difficult to control. However, believing they will go to 'Heaven' should they die, makes war and dying more palatable' ~ that is a paraphrase. Michael Ledeen never said which religion the troops should be indoctrinated with. I don't think it matters to him ~

[muriel_volestrangler]

120. But when James II was expelled from England

he raised a Catholic army in Ireland, They weren't defying the king - they wanted the one they'd had before - because he was Catholic.

I'm a bit surprised you regard the language as 'lost'. It's a minority language, but it's still there.

[Mythsaje]

126. There's been a resurgence in interest

in Gaelic lately, particularly here in the U.S. I can't imagine it's all that different in Ireland itself.

[mcscajun]

147. I've just returned from Ireland...where I heard Irish spoken

in the streets of Clifden, County Galway by children. There's a hopeful sign. Yet it's long been in the West of Ireland that the Irish language has survived, and where parents from outside An Ghaeltacht (the Irish-speaking region) send their children to Gaeltacht schools to learn the language.

The Gaeltacht covers extensive parts of counties Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry - all on the Western seaboard - and also parts of counties Cork, Meath and Waterford. Although all of the Gaeltacht population speak English, these are the only parts of Ireland where Irish is still spoken as a community language.

The preservation of the Gaeltacht as an Irish-speaking community has been regarded by successive Governments since the foundation of the State as of utmost importance. Not only does the Gaeltacht present on opportunity to naturally maintain the continuity of the Irish tradition, but also provides the ideal environment for the people who wish to become proficient in Irish. The existence of areas where Irish lives as a community language is an important cornerstone in the building of a bilingual society in Ireland, and it provides an environment where the language can evolve naturally in a modern setting.

http://www.iol.ie/~obrienp/rathcarn/gaelt_b.htm

Note: As languages, Scottish, Manx and Irish are all descended from Middle Irish. Some Irish speakers are offended by the term Gaelic, while Scottish speakers use Gaelic to describe Scottish Gaelic.

[Catrina]

130. Well, you just made my point. As I said, religion was not the cause of

the conflict, it was used, depending on which king or gueen was in control. Whether it was Catherine, or Mary, or Henry, or as you just pointed out, James ~ religion in England fluctuated. It was a matter of control, ordering people to do as the king said. It was the reason why the Founding Fathers here wrote the separation of Church and State into the Constitution so that the vile practice of using religion as a weapon to subjugate the population would never be used here.

A language is lost when it is not the spoken language of the country. It is now taught in schools but it is rare to find someone in Ireland today who is a native speaker ~ English is the spoken language of Ireland ~ there are no great works of literature being written in Irish ~

The most pure Irish was spoken in the West of Ireland. Since farming was the livlihood of the Irish people, Cromwell, drove people to the West, assuming they would die since they could not utilize land that was not fertile. That didn't happen and the language did survive there.

After Ireland regained its freedom (the North is not yet free, I am talking about the 26 counties) there was an attempt to revive the language, by making it mandatory in schools.

The cause of the continuing problems in the North of Ireland, and the incident today, is not religion, it is occupation. The North is still occupied. Loyalists are not loyal to Ireland, they are loyal to Britain ~

[Maeve]

135. I must differ on the state of the Irish language

There are still new books coming out in Irish, newspapers and magazines. Check out www.litriocht.com And songs are still being written in the Irish as well.

There has been an increase over the past decade in Irish language schools(all education done in Irish, not just a class or two as in state schools), even in the six counties of the North. In some measures, the language is stronger than it has been since the turn of the last century.

[Catrina]

141. Yes, you're right that the efforts to restore the language have increased

but my point was that under occupation, it was illegal to speak the Irish language, and while these efforts are admirable, they should not have been necessary ~ English is the first language of Ireland still, so the attempt to wipe out the culture almost succeeded ~

France, Italy, Germany etc., by contrast, while most of their citizens do speak English, their native languages are their spoken language ~

But yes, I am thrilled that music is being written in Irish and that there has been a renewed effort to re-introduce the language ~ and we should be forever grateful to those who often risked their lives to preserve it during the most difficult of times ~

Empire, wars and occupation have destroyed so many cultures, you'd think we'd have learned by now, but as the Iraq war demonstrates, not much has changed except the destruction can be accomplished faster now ~ 'bringing democracy to the ME'!! Same old colonialist thinking ~ 'we have the right to destoy your cultures and replace them with ours because we are superior'. So sad ~

Thanks for the link ~ I will go check it out ~ :-)

[Catrina]

106. Yes, exactly! And thank you for keeping an open mind. The Irish have not

done a good job of countering the false impressions disseminated about this conflict themselves ~ so there's no need to apologize at all. Many Irish people themselves believe the conflict to be religious.

Here's a Wikipedia link to the story of the Plantation Of Ulster, which is the real source of the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland today ~ and btw, you should find it of particular interest since what may be one of your own ancestors, Hugh O'Neill, played such a large role in what is still a huge issue today ~ :-)

Plantation of Ulster

The Plantation of Ulster took place in the Irish province of Ulster during the early 17th century. English and Scottish Protestants were settled on land that had been confiscated from Catholic Irish landowners in the six counties of Donegal, Coleraine1, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and Cavan, following the Flight of the Earls in 1607. It was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland. It is widely considered that Ulster was planted in this way to prevent further rebellion, having proved itself over the preceding century to be the most resistant of Ireland's provinces to British intrusion.

http://today.answers.com/topic/plantation-of-ulster

England's own religious history is interesting also, because around this time, it fluctuated between being a Protestant or Catholic country, depending on which King or Queen was on the throne. Henry V111, eg, forced his subjects to abandon Catholicism due to his anger with the Pope not allowing him to divorce his Catholic wife, under pain of death sometimes. Religion then, as it is now, was used as a political tool ~

[JNelson6563]

118. It wasn't always done with Protestants

as there was not always such a thing. Many tried to sieze Ireland, no one succeeded permanently or completely. Back in Henry II's day (mid 1100's) religion was used as a flimsy excuse to invade, under the premise of bringing the church there in line with the rest of Christendom (read "the Catholic church"). In spite of the papal bull, which Henry sat on until it was convenient to use, proclaiming the sactified reason for invading Ireland, all knew it was because Henry had an acquisitive nature and a brood of land-humgy sons to satisfy.

The land England held at that time was referred to as "the Pale". To go "beyond the Pale" was to go outside of the safe zone. Kinda like our current day Green Zone in Eye-rack.

And there is your unsolicited history lesson for the day. :toast:

Julie

[mcscajun]

145. More to "beyond the Pale"

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm

[bobbieinok]

129. one source for colonialisation...a genealogical one

One of my ex's (and therefore of my son's) ancestors was part of the group that settled Londonderry NH. Finding him and his wife taught me this aspect of history.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/scots_irish.htm

....

Historical Background

Scots-Irish immigrants came from the historic province of Ulster (in the north of Ireland). Scottish settlers began to come in large numbers to Ulster in the early decades of the 1600s. James I, the English monarch, sought to solidify control by transferring land ownership to Protestants and by settling their lands with Protestant tenants (English and Scottish). Scottish settlers continued to come to Ireland throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

Scots-Irish immigrants settled in the American colonies from the 1600s. However, the first major migration of Scots-Irish to America was a group that came with Rev. James McGregor from County Londonderry to New England in 1718. They arrived at Boston, and many of them moved to New Hampshire, establishing the town of Londonderry.

more....

[mcscajun]

146. Londonderry/Derry

Another identifier over in Ireland is to see what someone calls the city. Londonderry marks you as a UK loyalist and/or Protestant; Derry as an Irish Republican and/or Catholic.

[RagingInMiami]

73. You're right

But after genernations and centuries have passed, both sides are "Irish".

It's not a religious conflict, but a class conflict. But the classes are divided by religion so it's easy to define them that way.

[Mythsaje]

76. Damn...

A class conflict is even WORSE in some respects.

[RagingInMiami]

81. In Northern Ireland

Loyalists outnumber Repubicans about 2 to 1, at least that was the way it was ten years ago when I lived in Dublin.

Republicans, the Catholics, have larger families so it was always expected that one day they will eventually outnumber the Loyalists.

But right now, the police force in the north, the Royal Ulster Constabularly, is made up of mostly Loyalists, the Protestants.

The owners of all the large companies are Loyalists.

The politicans, mostly Loyalists.

[Mythsaje]

82. Sounds like a class issue to me...

not good.

[sg_]

83. 50/50

Protestants make up approx 54% of the population here, and Catholics make up approx 44%.

The police force here also has a 50% Protestant and a 50% Catholic recruitment policy, same goes for all other organisations.

[RagingInMiami]

89. Is that a new requirement?

[annabanana]

84. AND the money.....AND the opportunities..

n/t

[Maeve]

86. The split is closer to 55-45 now

The RUC was renamed and somewhat replaced by the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) in 2001 and is making progress in adding Catholics to the force (how good the progress has been is debatable). There is an investigation into the matter of police collusion (i.e., some in the RUC were actively aiding loyalists who attacked Catholics) and both the British and Irish governments are involved in working for equality in politics and the workforce.

Needless to say, much more is going to have to be done before the mess is resolved.

[RagingInMiami]

87. Thanks for keeping me updated

It's been a while.

[Maeve]

90. I frequent some Irish political discussion boards

And the northern issue is the biggest point of so much of the discussion! :eyes:

I'd like to move over there some day--fell in total love with the country, particularly the west.

[RagingInMiami]

93. The west is beautiful

All up and down the coast, from the Ring of Kerry on up to the Ayran Islands to the Cliffs of Mor.

[sg_]

95. Important

I do think its very important to mention here, that N.Ireland is nowhere near as bad/violent as you read or hear in the news, incase someone is getting put off visiting or something :). It is generally very peaceful compared to other countries. The UN had here as having the lowest crime victimisation rate in the world or something along those lines if I remember correct ??

[Maeve]

100. If you talk about violent crime, no question it's safe

Safer than many American cities, for that matter! And safer than England, too, for that matter...No one should let old fears keep them away from the beauty of Ireland, north or south.

[Mythsaje]

103. Someday I'd like to visit...

I have family there, I'm sure.

[CONN]

102. you're correct

[bettyellen]

94. the catholics poulation has grown faster, last i read, they were supposed

be the majority within the next 20 years. Should get interesting, no?
:hi:

[LostinVA]

128. I've read that too -- maybe then Diebold will handle the elections...

[BooScout]

140. Class has nothing to do with it anymore....

It's as he OP said.........it's conquerers vs natives. Always has been, always will be.

[bettyellen]

72. read Catrina's posts here to get some understanding...

it's not about religion except for some old school holdouts. it is about an unwillingness to have an equal playing field. like any other occupied territory, the brits who were planted their kept to themselves and exploited the irish, and got wealthy off it. believe me, when you are in northern ireland, most people can tell if you are catholic or protestant by looks. if they can't, a few inquiries into family names and locations will have them peg you fairly quickly. even though i was born in america, people did this to me all the time in belfast.
my cousin was raised in NI, but being black haired and named sean, well, that gave him a life equivalent to a black man in the deep south in the fifties. he was beaten and left for dead by a drunken crew of protestant footballers. he would have never had a decent job if not for quotas for catholics imposed bythe USA. so, this stuff about being one people doesn't really fly. it's not how people in NI generally behave. right now, we have two generations of people who were raised in belfast and other catholic ghettos under marshall law, under constant surveillance. it's not so easy to forget your own govt would do that because of the family you were born onto, but that's the truth of it. it's been separate, and unequal for way too long over there.
it'll be interesting to see if this can be undone peacefully when the majority switches to catholic in the coming years. i really hope so. i too, would prefer a nonviolent solution.

[Mythsaje]

74. I just did...

It seems that my original impression of the conflict was mistaken. I wasn't aware that the brits had transplanted the Protestants there--I'd thought they'd been forcibly converted much in the same way the original Irish had been forcibly converted to Catholicism.

My apologies.

[acmavm]

98. Go back to the times of Henry II. EVERYONE WAS CATHOLIC, it had

nothing to do with religion. It never did. It's been a convenient excuse since the time of the Reformation, but IT WAS NOT A RELIGIOUS ISSUE.

It was money and power. Conquest. Greed. The usual. Sort of like what we did to the American Indian.

[CONN]

105. parallels with native Americans...

An example, Sir Francis Drake slaughtered 600+ defenseless woman and children on Rathlin Island in the 16th century. Genocide to clear the land for new owners and tenants... loyal to an English monarch who granted the lands.

[LostinVA]

122. Agreed -- this is apartheid, pure and simple

[smirkymonkey]

4. Actually, some of their reasons are quite legit.

The oppression of the Catholics by the Ulster Unionists is hardly a "piddly-ass reason."

[Itchinjim]

6. No we don't! And I'll fight anyone of ya that says we do!

What are you? Some sort of Orangeman?

[Mythsaje]

17. I once met a visitor from Ireland

down in SF, and someone asked him if he was Catholic or Protestant. He leaped to his feet, brandishing the walking stick he carried with him everywhere, and proceeded to beat the concrete around the questioner's feet, making him dance.

"I'm neither!" he proclaimed angrily. "I'm a pagan!"

He was young, around my age at the time, and quite vehement.

[demosincebirth]

7. Among themselves??

You don't know Irish history.

[Mythsaje]

11. Are you kidding me?

They have ALWAYS fought amongst themselves, joining together to repel invaders like the vikings, then went back to their clannish ways.

[demosincebirth]

16. Talking about recent history... say last 500 years.

They have been fighting the British for independence, have they not?

[Mythsaje]

18. Indeed...

And, unfortunately, the British managed to turn them against themselves rather effectively.

[CountAllVotes]

24. 800 years since the invasion ...

That is how long this "fight" has been going on. England invaded Ireland over 800 years ago, but the fight continues to this day. It will never stop until Ireland once again belongs to the Irish people, the keepers of the land that they OWN.

:dem: :kick:

[Mythsaje]

26. And they need to recognize that

they're ONE PEOPLE, outside-driven religious differences aside.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

115. They are not one people!

Protestants aren't really Irish. They're British. Religion has nothing to do with it. The issue comes from the way the Protestant British have abused the Irish Catholics for years.

[LeftofU]

119. amen

[LostinVA]

123. They aren't one people

You said you had made a mistake and misunderstood, but you're saying the same thing again. People were brought into Ireland by the British and given land, etc., EXACTLY LIKE THE NAZIS DID IN POLAND and other countries. They are treated as filth by many Orangemen. Remember the recent video of the little Catholic schoolgirls being screamed at, spat on, etc. by adults? Why>? Because they refused to any longer go to their school by an alley. They used the road. This was too much for the Orange adults -- having to see these filthy, disgusting Catholics flaunting their third-class selves. That video reminded me of movies I've seen shot during WWII.

This is apartheid. It is akin to what the Nazis did. Period. It is not about religion. It is about the hundreds-year effort to grind down a people.

[demosincebirth]

30. Amen!!!

And I'm not even Irish.

[regnaD kciN]

44. Translation...

It will never stop until Ireland once again belongs to the Irish people, the keepers of the land that they OWN.

...it will never stop until the north is forcibly joined back to the Republic of Ireland, against the will of the non-Roman-Catholic majority there (which, of course, makes them not real Irish), and all Protestants have to live under Roman Catholic laws.

:eyes:

(Personally, I think Northern Ireland should be free of British rule. But I also think it should be free of Republican -- i.e. Dublin -- rule. It should remain an independent state of its own, unless and until its own residents decide to join in union with another country.)

[demosincebirth]

97. Finally, religion is brought into the discussion. Ha.!

[Hardrada]

27. Some of them cooperated with us Norse too.

We had some of the chieftains around Dublin on our side.

[Mythsaje]

29. True enough...

My family tree has Norse blood in it coming down from both Ireland and Scotland.

[Warpy]

8. `Scuse me, but maybe some education as to what English

oppression really meant to the Irish might be in order. Yes, this riot was pretty dumb (they all are), but some memories are long ones and I can certainly see why a Unionist parade in Dublin was like waving a red rag at a bull having a bad day.

How do you feel about Phelps and his antics? This was a thousand times worse.

[Mythsaje]

12. I understand that...

but we of all people understand that violence begets violence, and the last thing Ireland needs is a return to the open warfare that has plagued it for decades now.

[LostinVA]

124. It can be considered akin to a Nazi rally in Jerusalem

[ananda]

19. excuse me..

The Irish were seriously abused, mistreated, killed, allowed to die in the potato famine, and lied to by the British for many years.

Also, why do you think the name "Billy" and the color "orange" is such an anathema among all good Irish folk?

Sue

[Mythsaje]

22. Except the ones who march in orange

in opposition to those who march in green.

I HATE hearing about this sort of stuff over there. They need to do everything possible to subdue these sorts of actions.

[TomClash]

23. This coming from a someone who resides in the USA?

The country that brought you the bombing of Tokyo and Dresden, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, depleted uranium bombs, agent orange and so on.

We're hardly in a position to criticize the Irish.

[Mythsaje]

28. I'm not criticizing...

Quite the opposite, actually. Hell, the Irish, despite the deplorable treatment they received when they reached these shores, helped build America.

But they need to recognize themselves as one people and one nation, and not allow outside influences to generate more conflict between them.

[Scairp]

112. Wow, right in the middle of Dublin

On a Saturday too. What a mess that must have been.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. A suggestion...

Learn the reasons. They're not "piddly-ass."

Don't make me get my "Irish" up. (I actually have that on a t-shirt)

[LostinVA]

121. Racist much? Your posts drip with racism and steroetypes

[name not needed]

134. There's a reason youre a "giant asshole"

:shrug:

[MADem]

136. Piddly ass reasons???

The Irish lived for years under the brutal boot of the British. They were thrown from their homes, forbidden to practice their religion, beaten for speaking their language, and those memories are deeply ingrained in what you see happening here today. Read their history. They want their fucking island reunited. Religion is just the patina; there's a deep and abiding nationalism involved there too.

There is a civil war happening in Iraq now with nationalist/religious overtones. You can't fuck with the unity of peoples and not expect blowback. It happened in a place we used to call Yugoslavia, too....

[sg_]

5. Bad decision

This parade was authorised by the Irish Govt./Gardi, incase someone decides to start the mindless bashing of Northern Ireland/Northern Irish Protestants like I have seen many subtle hints here before of it.

Anyway, it was a poor decision to bring bands and the marchers down to Dublin in the first place...maybe a march or demonstration without bands or anything. It was obvious that it was going to kick off among the mindless yobs. The parade didnt even get around to starting, and they(people who travelled down) left shortly afterwards in their buses.

[CountAllVotes]

13. hi!

:hi: Welcome to Democratic Underground!

Thanks for shedding some truth on this story. I for one do appreciate it.

:kick:

[Catrina]

21. Omg, I love that: Osama 'I'm still free, how about you'. If it isn't a

bumper sticker, it ought to be ~ :rofl:

One half of Ireland's total population was wiped out during the Famine ~ the rape of Ireland over the course of 800 years' of occupation, is hardly something that can be easily forgotten, and a parade like that is certainly an attempt to ensure it won't be forgotten.

The freedom Ireland now enjoys, (south of the border) is relatively recent in historical terms, not even 100 years old yet. Whoever decided to allow this stupid parade to take place, needs to explain what on earth they were thinking.

I'm glad they were sent packing ~ if we were more sensible here and had sent the Bush administration and their inflamatory policies packing, we and the world would be in better shape. You simply should not tolerate stupidity ~ apparently the Irish people don't believe in promoting stupid, useless celebrations of the bigotry and the oppression their ancestors endured, some of whom are still living. Good for them ~

[Mythsaje]

25. That's really what drives me nuts about it...

The Irish are still too easily turned against themselves. My family name is O'Neil, btw, so I do have some interest and emotion tied up into all of this.

[CountAllVotes]

37. at least your family did not succumb and drop the "O"

perhaps the worst sin a good Irishman can do is to drop that "O". I should just so happen to know this myself. :D

:kick:

[Mythsaje]

51. My family has always been proud

of our Irish heritage. Unfortunately our line no longer holds the name.

[Catrina]

47. Well, since I was born and grew up there, (south of the border) and have

friends who grew up in the North, I have to disagree with you ~ almost all 'true' Irish people are united regarding their sovereignty. If you mean that in the North the 'Irish' people have a history of fighting 'each other', you need to go back and study the history of the region, and who is really 'Irish' and who was planted there. Check out the 'Plantation of Ulster' for starters ~

I disagree with violence in general, but I also am against invasion and occupation, and empire for many reasons, human rights being the most important one, and because it will never work since people have a way of not accepting foreign occupation, no matter how long it lasts, which leads to violence, and sometimes a split in the opinions of the native population itself, as to how to deal with it.

Check out the American Revolution, eg ~ read the list of grievances included in the Declaration of Independence ~ and also notice that even among those who wanted independence from the British back then, there was plenty of fighting amongst themselves. That's what happens when freedom is the goal. There will be those willing to die for it, commit violent acts for it, and those who disagree and end up fighting their own in an attempt to try a more peaceful solution.

The bottom line is that Ireland was an occupied country for hundreds of years and no, they did not fight each other, (there are always traitors and informers, which is what you may be thinking of) they fought the occupation on and off throughout that period.

The North was not included in the handing of Ireland back to its rightful owners so the fight for the rights of Native Irish citizens continued there, and escalated in the '60s after way too much tolerance for the bigotry and denial of rights to native Irish citizens of their own country (much like that here against blacks, which may be why blacks have often joined Irish people in demonstrations against the unfair policies of the British in the North).

True there are differences of opinion about how to deal with the 'troubles' in the North, but I have yet to meet anyone (unless they are in favor of occupation and the 'to the victor belong the spoils' philosophy, much like the freeper philosophy here) of true Irish descent who does not want peace and most importantly, civil rights for all citizens Ireland.

Here's a quote from one of those 'Irishmen' you might be thinking of: when asked 'Rev. Paisley, why do you hate Catholics'? by Katie Couric a few years ago ~ his response 'I don't hate Keeatholicks, Katy, I just wish they were all dead'! He spoke for a segment of the people of the North ~

As far as the history of Ireland before the occupation, well yes, there were clans fighting for territory. But what makes Ireland any different, eg, to England in that sense? How many internal battles over territory were there in other countries back then? Who became King often was determined by internal battles with the victor becoming the ruler, until someone else challenged him. Fighting among clans, or political groups to attain power was pretty much par for the course back then, not just in Ireland ~

The propaganda of the British (we are seeing eerily similar propaganda here now) works well. 'Those dumb Irish pigs, always fighting among themselves' ~ I'm not criticizing you, but am all too familiar with the history of Ireland and the demonization of the Irish people. Which is why I am so appalled by the occupation of Iraq, and not at all surprised that the British were on board from the beginning ~ old habits die hard and their Empire is no longer ~ so jumping on neocon Empire wagon makes sense to at least some of them ~ (what a disappointment that it had to be Tony Blair, for whom I used to have so much respect).

PS, most ordinary British people do not support the occupation of Iraq nor did they support the disastrous policies of their own govenment towards the people of N. Ireland ~

And I was very fortunate to have grown up in a free and peaceful Ireland, unlike so many generations before and unlike those Irish citizens in the North of Ireland ~ still, we are always aware of the horrors of occupation, even if we only heard about it from our grandparents, as they heard it from theirs or read about in history books ~ as Jews will hear of the holocaust from their grandparents and read about in history ~ nor should we forget nor excuse it when we see it happening to others, as it is in Iraq now ~

[Mythsaje]

53. I think Ireland should belong to the Irish

and should have all along. The British didn't have any right to invade, or to stir up conflict there as they've done since.

[regnaD kciN]

54. Ah, another descendent of King Niall...!

My family name is O'Neil, btw, so I do have some interest and emotion tied up into all of this.

I was just hearing a radio report on how genetic researchers have determined that the descendants of Niall make up the largest traceable family in the world. That includes pretty much everyone with a family name of O'Neil(l), MacNeil(l), or any variant of "Neal." In my case, my maternal grandmother's line came from the Kneales of the Isle of Man, also a part of the family.

What I find a bit amusing is that, if you look at geneological histories, the O'Neills of Ireland and the MacNeils of Scotland always mention their descent from King Niall, but never mention each other's existence. ;-)

[Mythsaje]

56. Well, from what I've heard from my ex

who's tracing our histories, most of it's pretty linear unless you really want to get into details, so it's not that much of a surprise. But, yeah, I think it's hard for the various Celt clans to acknowledge one another.

What's really weird is that she and I are like 19th cousins or some such. And her current boyfriend is like one step closer to my family than she is.

[sg_]

32. The parade...

The parade was to remember victims of republican violence. Is that being bigotted?. I knew many people who were murdered by the IRA here, my fathers friend(and work collegue) was blew to peices for doing a bit of work at an Army Barracks along with half a dozen others people, all blew to peices. I can go on and on with examples.

The implementation of the demonstration was a very poor choice needless to say (bands etc..).

Ive been called an Orange bastard, a hun, black bastard and many others.. by Catholics on many occasions, but I forgot. (N).Irish Catholics never do things like that; only the Protestants are bigotted...well thats atleast the impression I get from people at times. Many need to take off their blinkers at times. Each side is as bad as the other.

[Mythsaje]

40. And as good as the other!!!

This is what frustrates me. Ireland has such a history of producing great minds and great hearts, and yet the people are far too willing to kill each other. Maybe it's not "piddly-ass" stuff, but, Christ, who wins when the Orange and the Green attack each other with guns, fists, or words? No one. Except maybe the smirking Brits who will say "see, they needed us to keep the peace," when it was their interference that led to the schism in the first place.

Watching a few Brit comedies a couple years back I couldn't believe that it was acceptable to mock the Irish the way they did.

[regnaD kciN]

55. To answer your question...

Maybe it's not "piddly-ass" stuff, but, Christ, who wins when the Orange and the Green attack each other with guns, fists, or words?

Well, certainly not Christ... :-(

[Mythsaje]

57. There's deep truth in THAT statement. n/t

[sg_]

34. Cheers!

I'll post anything of interest that comes on TV here regarding it

[CountAllVotes]

36. thanks!

We do not know what is going on in Ireland unless we read the newspapers printed online which can be difficult.

Again, Welcome to the Democratic Underground. In case you had not guessed, there are plenty of "us" here that are Irish Americans so we tend to keep track of what is going on in the old country if possible.

:kick:

[hwmnbn]

14. Welcome to DU, sg_ ....

:hi:

[Mythsaje]

15. Welcome to DU...

It WAS a bad decision. Fuses are still short and the pain of the conflict is still very much on the surface.

[sg_]

33. Thanks.

Indeed. I do feel people on both sides are generally just getting fed up with all the 'fighting' these days. With the exception of the hardcore few on each side, and teenagers doing their usual posturing on each side.

[Mythsaje]

62. That's good...

I've been hoping to see an end to it all within my lifetime, that's for sure.

[RagingInMiami]

48. But what was the parade

An attempt to mend differences? It wasn't like your typical Orange summer march through Catholic neighorhoods in Belfast.

[CONN]

75. What was the point of the parade? More Irish Republican bashing

... Sinn Féin has become a political force and both British (unsubstantiated stories before elections about break-ins, bank robberies, etc) and the Irish governments.

The armed force for the Republicans (ie Provisional IRA) has had a cease fire since 1997 and disarmed last summer.

On the other hand a quick search on the BBC will reveal stories of the Unionists attacking young school girls, burning Churches, etc

[sg_]

78. Very selective...

The aim of the parade from what I gathered was to protest the Irish Goverment/Gardi providing a safe haven for the IRA during the troubles.

As for your selective choice of news...the exact same can be said about republicans. They are intimidating protestants in 50/50 towns and areas here to try and force them to move out, yet nobody bats an eyelid at that.

[CONN]

99. Not really...

My wife taking my daughter to soccer in Newry this morning was stuck waiting for the buses to pass through (they had right-of-way on the roundabout). Some of the banners and signs, on the buses, taunted with pro-RUC slogans. RUC is the discredited, disbanded "police" force.

The 'Love Ulster' campaign is the work of a paramilitary group... it was launched by the Shankill Mirror (Loyalist paramilitary paper):
http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentLoyalismAndBritishPolicy.html

[RagingInMiami]

45. I wish they would give more details on the "Love Ulster" rally

And it's a good thing guns are extremely difficult to get in Ireland.

[whirlygigspin]

61. here's the BBC linked story (with video)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4750576.stm


"Several cars were set on fire and up to 40 people have been arrested.
It is understood a total of 14 people were injured, including six police officers who were taken to hospital for treatment. A number of protesters were also injured during the clashes.

The demonstrators said they would "not allow a loyalist march to pass".

Later--

One of the buses carrying Loyalists home was attacked by stone throwers as it approached the border town of Dundalk in County Louth.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4750576.stm

[RagingInMiami]

70. So it was a loyalist march

What did they expect, allowing them to march down O'Connell Street?

It's insulting considering the history between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It's bad enough that they allow the Loyalists to march through Catholic neighborhoods in the Northern Ireland, but at least there it's obvious that they are in control of the country.

But to allow this in the Republic where almost 100 percent of the Irish-born citizens are NOT loyalists? The politicians have nobody to blame but themselves.

And it's a shame because progress was being made between the two factions.

[sg_]

63. From what I understood...

It was to 'accuse' the Irish Gardi/Government of providing a safe haven for IRA/Republican terrorists during the troubles.

[CONN]

68. Even the Irish don't like these Klan-like marches

[stepnw1f]

80. What Waste of Life Fighting Amongst Ourselves

I see this happening in our own country if we don't wise up. On the other hand, I understand it is very hard.

[Malikshah]

85. Be careful, Dubliners. The US is coming to get you.

We'll either give you control of our ports or bomb you back to the stone-age.

This is how we deal with rioters...or at least describe in general terms those who riot.

After all-- we must stop their riots there before they start rioting here....

[TomClash]

91. Here's the report from RTE in Dublin

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0225/loyalist.html

Around 300 protestors, who opposed the planned loyalist 'Love Ulster' march, clashed with gardaí in Dublin city centre this afternoon.

The trouble broke out at 12.45pm at the junction of Parnell Street and O'Connell Street, just yards from where an estimated 800 marchers commemorating the victims of republican violence had gathered.

<snip>

Missiles including cement blocks, rocks, pipes, glass bottles and firecrackers were thrown. A refuse skip outside the GPO was also set on fire.

Businesses along the route were forced to shut as gardaí and members of the Garda Riot Squad forced the protestors down O'Connell Street.

Further skirmishes broke out at O'Connell Bridge, Aston Quay, Fleet Street and Temple Bar.

The most serious violence was in the Nassau Street area. Three cars were burnt out, windscreens were smashed and businesses had their windows broken.

[CONN]

101. Background info on 'Love Ulster' Campaign from Socialist Democracy

This is (I believe) a neutral Irish Marxist group:

On the 29th August, a special edition of the Shankill Mirror, a newspaper subsidised by the British government, was published bearing the banner headline “Ulster At Crisis Point”. This was the kickoff for an initiative billed as “Love Ulster”, which is scheduled to climax with a mass rally at Woodvale Park on 29th October.
<snip>
Other figures in Love Ulster were quite clear about paramilitary involvement. John McVicar of the Shankill Mirror said: “The reality is that loyalist paramilitaries are part of the Protestant community.
<snip>
One of the principal spokesmen for the campaign is Willie Frazer of the group FAIR, which claims to speak for “real victims” – that is, Protestant victims of republican violence. Frazer stated that loyalist paramilitaries would be welcome at the October rally, providing they attended in a personal capacity. Under questioning, Frazer argued that the rally was all about Protestant victimhood and loyalists hadn’t been killing Protestants, so that was all right then. Maybe Frazer’s brass neck is inhibiting his peripheral vision – not only does he refuse to call on loyalists to end attacks on Catholics, or ethnic minorities for that matter, but he doesn’t seem to have noticed that the UVF has killed four Protestants in recent months.
<snip>

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentLoyalismAndBritishPolicy.html

[xchrom]

108. i can't blame them for protesting the love ulster parade.

i would have been pissed about that.

[sg_]

139. It was the 'chavs/townies'...

It was the chavs/townies/scallies or whatever you want to call them, who were doing the rioting. Im not sure what word you have for them in the US, they are young people who quite literally have nothing better to do than other to cause trouble and hang around on street corners.

Most of the rioters were in their teens. It seemed more a case of an excuse to wreck anything rather than "protesting" the parade...infact I wouldnt be surprised if they even knew what the march was about in the first place.

In all the camera shots of the riots I seen on the news, the oldest people (other than the reporters caught among it) seemed to be in their early 20's. They even layed into an RTE reporter and called him an "Orange bastard" and gave him a beating.

<segment from a rte news report>
Mr McHugh said many of those involved in the violence had been drinking in some pubs in Dublin city and used the opportunity to commit acts of random violence.

Thirteen of the 41 people arrested following the riots were charged with public order offences before a special sitting of Dublin District Court last night.

Aebhric McGibney of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce said retailers are counting the costs that could be up to €10m.

The Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, has blamed republican dissidents for starting the trouble, although he said they were quickly joined by local people.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0226/loyalist.html

<segment from utv report on the riots>

The rioters were roundly condemned by leaders on both sides of the border.

The Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, condemned those involved in the violence. He said: "There is absolutely no excuse for the disgraceful scenes in Dublin today. It is the essence of Irish democracy and republicanism that people are allowed express their views freely and in a peaceful manner. People who wantonly attack Gardai and property have no respect for their fellow citizens."

And the Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern said: "All efforts to provoke sectarian conflict on our island must be vigorously opposed. There can be no place in modern Ireland for sectarianism or efforts to support such attacks for political gain."

Gerry Adams, Sinn Fein president, said the rioting was entirely wrong and reprehensible.

"There is no justification for what happened this afternoon in Dublin. Sinn Fein had appealed to people to ignore this loyalist parade and not to be provoked by it," Mr Adams said. "Our view was that it should not be opposed in any way and we made that clear. Regrettably a small, unrepresentative group, chose to ignore our appeal. Their actions were entirely wrong and reprehensible."

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=70852

[xchrom]

142. welcome to du

we love our international duers!
:applause:

[CONN]

143. hmmm just local kids looking for an excuse for mayhem...

Although the response of the "rioters" may have been misguided, I have a hard time believing it was anything other than a response to an unwelcome group with a distorted message that was fueled by an attempt by the Irish Govt's Guarda to stop them from counter demonstrating. I don't buy the just a bunch of "townies who quite literally have nothing better to do than other to cause trouble and hang around on street cornerswith nothing better to do on a Saturday."

See link below for a similar incident in the USA yesterday. I wouldn't say "locals in the hood who can't tolerate outsiders and just hang around waiting to trash the place". I believe the response of the locals is understandable. There is the need for free speach, but not from hate groups (British Loyalists Paramilitaries, NAZIs, or the KKK). And unfortunately your reply sounds a bit like Bill White's.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5647701,00.html

[Harper_is_Bush]

138. Why do the Irish want to attack free speech? Irish need to get over

themselves.

:sarcasm:

[newfaceinhell]

151. Can't tell the difference between a march and a cartoon, eh?

Although even the posts in this thread would show the fallacy of generalising about "the Irish" on this, or frankly any other issue.

Ireland is not a playground for you to grind your axe about completely unrelated issues.

[Chomp]

144. Hello from Dublin, Ireland

Look, it's very simple. The people who rioted in Dublin on Satuurday displayed their naked secartianism and bigotry. All talk of simmering resentment over the evils of British occupation and oppression is BOGUS NONSENSE. Complete horseshit, with respect.

This is the 21st Century for Christ sake, not the fucking 19th. Sure, the Brits invaded whenever the hell it was and a lot of people are still pissed off about it. Fine. But rioting? Throwing rocks at the cops? In Dublin? To stop Unioist protesting? Bullshit! Sectarian, bigotted BULLSHIT!!!

And a couple of sweet little ironies about these fucking knuckle-headed morons:

a. They don't even recognise the Irish Republic or it's agents (police/army etc.) as doing so would mean legitimising partition. Got that logic? They don't even accept the Irish state! Ergo, they have the right to engage in rightous mob rule! The rule of law doesn't count for them because they are operating on a higher moral and intellectual level than the rest of us. Pass the fucking sickbag.

b. They call themselves Republicans (in the Platonic/Jeffersonian sense). Ha! They wouldn't know a republic if it smaked them in the mouth. All they want is to punish the Prods and Brits for what happened in 1847 or 1916 or 1972 or fucking whenever. For Christ sake the riot was an effort to stop a dissenting march! Does that sound "republican"? Of the people for the people by the people? More like Un Duce un voce...These people think like a Mad Mullah. No place in their republic for anything that isn't green.


The reality is that Northern Ireland is home to a million people who consider themselves British. That is the REALITY. We don't live in some fucking green-tinged Darby O Gill and the Little People world where the Brits are bad and the Paddies are great. That is fantastical, hateful nonsense. Rioters and bigots please bear this in mind. And if I read one more fuclking misty-eyed reinvocation of some anti-Brit bullshit I'll scream.

Finally, anyone out there know what the colours of the Irish flag stand for? Green, white and orange? Some people would clearly prefer it to be all green. Like fucking Libya.

[Tripmann]

148. Heres another Dubliner member of DU

And I had a good laugh of the complete lack of knowledge shown by certain DUers at thew start of this thread. I'm actually Dublin city born and raised, about a 5 minute walk from O'Connell street. It was blatantly obvious that there would be major trouble allowing this march to go ahead. It is correct that there both protestors and troublemakers on the day. It is also correct and a shame that the riots played right into the loyalists agenda of setting back the process of reconciliation.

[conning]

149. the best analysis

of this event may be found at www.indymedia.ie. The rage of the excluded.