Anti-Iraq war veterans pulled from parade

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/111203/met_14020003.shtml

TALLAHASSEE -- A group of 30 military veterans critical of the war in Iraq hoped to use Tuesday's Veterans Day parade to call attention to the increasingly deadly conflict but instead found themselves fighting for something much more fundamental.

Members of Veterans For Peace and Vietnam Veterans Against the War were yanked off a downtown Tallahassee street, directly in front of the Old Capitol, while marching in the holiday parade they had legitimately registered in.

As organizers allowed the parade to roll on -- including veterans from various wars, several high school marching bands and even a group of young women from the local Hooters restaurant -- the anti-war veterans were ordered onto sidewalks where they passed out leaflets and displayed a banner reading, "Honor the Warrior, Not the War."

"There's a war going on that's based on lies, just like Vietnam," said veteran Tom Baxter, an Army equipment maintenance officer in Vietnam for 16 months in 1967-69. "They were lying then, and they're lying now."

Parade chairman Ken Conroy, a Korean War veteran, said he ejected the anti-war veterans because they were offensive and because Tallahassee police also wanted them removed. He offered to refund their $10 registration fee and said he was not suppressing the group's free speech rights.

more

[Alex146]

1. sick

:puke:

[nickgutierrez]

3. Welcome to Florida...

Can't do something that'll make the Governor's brother look bad, now, can we?

[jab105]

31. Just what I was going to say...

heard about it on the local news yesterday...what can I say, welcome to Jeb Bush country......

[joeunderdog]

53. Here's the TallaHassle Police Chief's email....

His name is Walter McNeil and he can be contacted at: [e-mail]
although they prefer you use their boilerplate form which will go into information purgatory...http://www.state.fl.us/citytlh/tpd/contact/index.html

and here's a link to all the important phone numbers:
http://www.state.fl.us/citytlh/tpd/phone/index.html

Tallahassle Police Department: Keeping people safe from PeaceMongers

[Cha]

2. bush's freakin' america where black is white and

up is down and wrong is right.

[bobbieinok]

4. why were they 'offensive'??

....should read 'to whom' were they offensive?

....why did police chief want them removed?

[submerged99]

23. cops don't usually have a say

The participants in a parade, where the organizers have been issued a permit, are usually admitted or denied at the discretion of the person/org holding the permit. Sounds like the organizers had them ejected and then passed the buck to the cops. I'm not taking up for the cops, mind you, just pointing out that I think the parade organizers are shirking responsibility for having the anti-war vets removed.

[jokerman93]

39. Ooops! Almost Forgot!

Being offensive is practically a crime in America now -- punishable with beurocratic sensure.

I think Patriot Act II should take care of any ambiguities though. Can't wait!

[bluestateguy]

5. Ah! Jeb Bush's Florida

These are the same people who claim we are spreading "democracy" in Iraq. How about practicing it here at home?

[joeunderdog]

54. Bro's Bush are screwing Vets like the cheap whores they sees them as.

This incident should define the Anti-BushFamily sentiment for the Veterans.

They risk their lives for phantom justice and are shown no respect.

[Ilsa]

6. Is there a group keeping track of all of this?

Is someone keeping track of loss of freedoms in shrub's 'Murica?

[paradisiac]

12. some of it is

being kept track of on The Progressive website:

http://www.progressive.org/webex/mcwatch.html

[tom_paine]

7. In Imperial Amerika, you just don't criticize the Emperor

[Coventina]

8. Apparently, we will only honor "some" veterans

Disgusting.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mikimouse]

18. Maybe I'm thicker than usual tonight, but I really don't

understand most of your post. Are you saying that the Vietnam vets and others against the war should wait for another day to express their views? If so, I would answer that they have every right to express themselves on Veterans Day, as they are veterans, and this (supposedly) is the society for which they fought. :hippie:

[Bozita]

21. Was that a parade for veterans or a parade for Dumbya supporters?

[Lars39]

22. he's tombstoned.

[koopie57]

32. whattttt?

you don't support the troops, but are offended that someone else should make them feel crappy? Whatt?

[DeathvadeR]

37. It sickens me...we still continue to glorify war. any war

Praise the killing machines!!!!!!! Honor the murderers!!!!!



Fuqing sick sadistic Gross concept if you ask me!!!!!!

[thebigidea]

40. you don't support the troops? Does that mean you hate freedom?

and if you do hate freedom, does that mean you're against us?

evildoer!

can I get banned for calling someone an evildoer?

[Cooley Hurd]

10. How DARE they treat Veterans like that?

On VETERAN'S DAY, no less! Amazing, their hypocricy...

[whirlygigspin]

11. This is outrageous

OMG

[IndianaGreen]

28. This is an outrage

I wonder if the co-founder of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, who is now running for President, will speak up against this outrage.

[jpgray]

42. If he does, you can bet people here will criticize him for it

:)

[WillyT]

25. Yep, That's What I Was Thinking, MFG !!!

I don't know this country any more.

:puke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. This is... Nam on Steroids

iirc correctly this happened as well back then... about oh
the late 1960s, after Tet.

We are living through a very compressed 1960s folks

More and more info as to how this is becoming like
the vietnam years (in America), after all in Iraq it is 1920
all over again

[DemoTex]

14. As as a V.V.A.W. member and marcher in the head-cracking Nixon days ...

I never remember such an insult to the First Ammendment. We live in strange and frightening times.

Whose streets? OUR FUCKING STREETS! Don't forget it friends.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. I'm beginning to think that Americans will have to take to the streets...

...in large numbers to get this pointed in the right way.

Unfortunately, just like Vietnam, it's going to take a lot more people getting killed in the Middle East before enough Americans get pissed off.

[saigon68]

29. MORE FUCKING BULLSHIT

Yes kids, its going to get real ugly real soon. This fight is not about the War in Viet-Nam or Iraq.

It is about Corporate fascism and rule by men not by law.

Fuck the Cocksucking police. They are cowards and no better than the criminals who direct them.

[tabasco]

15. Veteran's group not allowed to march.

But the hooters girls are good to go. Absolutely disgusting.

[Skip Intro]

16. Contact Info:

should anyone be so moved...

From http://www.vfwpost3308.org/ -
Ken Conroy is "2Year Trustee" here:

Leon County VFW Post 3308
2765 1/2 W. Tennessee Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32315
Phone # [phone]
[e-mail]

or at this phone number, publicly available via this news item:

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7024273.htm

Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 3308 will again sponsor the annual Veterans Day parade, to be held Nov. 11. The VFW invites all individuals, groups and businesses who wish to participate to sign up now. Anyone wishing to enter the parade or looking for more information can call Ken Conroy (591-0233) or Marjorie Brayfield (591-0740)... (I'm guessing the area code is 850)
-------------------
FUJB

[mediaman007]

26. My letter to the VFW

Members,

Years from now your actions will be a footnote in history. Just a little sidebar that will be an example of the times we live in. The removed veterans deserved better. I didn't realize that there are "good veterans" and "bad veterans." Further, your actions are as disgraceful to our country as any flag burning.

As many of you know, it takes courage to defend our country. The removal of the veterans was an action of cowardice. Shame on that individual.

[Bozita]

43. These people know the true God, the true veterans, the true truth

Cantcha see that those VFW "heroes" have an American Flag?

UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE!

[RainDog]

17. I find Bush offensive

Can I pull him out of the White House?

He certainly has less of a right to be there than those vets had to be in that parade.

Just another example of Bush America bullshit. Where was Dubya when those vets were putting their asses on the line?

Snorting a line of coke? Spending Daddy's money? Pretending he was a flyboy before going awol?

So, why did those vets fight that war? To protect our freedoms, or to satisfy some paranoid right wing faction in this country and enrich a bunch of war profiteers?

Oh wait, that's now. Oh wait. That was Vietnam.

I support our troops, and for that reason, those of us here in the country should demand Bush be tried as a war criminal for lying to this nation to take us into an unnecessary war which has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousand Iraqi civilians, thousands of dead and wounded American soldiers, and which has helped to speed the death of democracy with each day that Bush is allowed to occupy the executive branch.

I've had it with the kneejerk false patriots who put their heads up their asses and think they've seen the light.

[0007]

19. Numbers will soon drown those folks who had a hand in kicking...

these 30 men out of the parade.

Numbers will soon kick junior out by the seat of his pants.

'Tis a matter of time only!

Mother Cares!

[scottcsmith]

20. Conservatives hate the military

There's a thread somewhere of this happening in another city. A bunch of groups marched in the Veteran's Day parade in the city I can't remember the name of, and as they passed the review podium the name of the group was announced, like the local high school ROTC group. When the Vets for Peace group walked by they were not announced. The parade organizer said he didn't consider the Vets for Peace vets to be "real" vets.

I'm getting anonymous e-mails to my amazingly entertaining web site from some clown pretending to be an offended veteran. My liberal views are too much...I'm not a real vet...I'm a disgrace to the uniform...etc., etc., etc. You can read the e-mails at my web site, they are very amusing. People sure don't like vets to be anti-Bush and anti-war.

[submerged99]

24. funny hate mail

I went to your website and read the email from the outraged "vet." I got a laugh at his claims that YOU are the one hiding behind a computer,(hosted under your real name, no less) while he refuses to reveal anything about himself. My guess is that he's a blowhard who will never send any personal info about himself.

[0rganism]

36. Hey, you could take that hater up on his offer for a debate

Do it up as a formal debate, with a moderator and timed segments for presentation, rebut, and reply. Hold it at a local high school with a forensics team, have it videotaped for posterity.

"Resolved: a veteran is a former soldier, regardless of his or her current political views"

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

30. It's as if Reagan is back in office saying absolutely no press in Granada

The effing Repugs "control all you bases."

[Jack Rabbit]

33. Question for Florida DUers

Are Jeb's fingerprints on this? If so, how?

[jonnyblitz]

34. as a Vet this sure PISSES me off. I am glad I wasn't there.

I would probably be enroute to Guantanemo right now for running my big mouth... :puke: :puke: :puke:

I have experienced how these "support out troops" types feel about us anti-war vets first hand. :eyes:

[Myra]

35. Holy fuckin' crap

So wish we could wake up from this nightmare...

[Norton]

41. The great thing about this story is....

that had they just left those guys alone we would never had heard about it! By running them off, they made the point for the Veterens For Peace!

[Myra]

48. ...I guess that's true

It was reported in a fairly mainstream paper, I think.

[Dr Fate]

38. Why do Republicans HATE our Veteran's freedoms???

If they will not let VETS marrch and speak out, then we are ALL in trouble...

[The_Casual_Observer]

44. Bush pushed very hard to send us to war

simply to choke off any opposition. How many times a day do you hear a RW goofball say "you can't say that while our troops are out there
...in harms way"

[WhoDoYouTrust]

45. Boston's Veterans for Peace were not acknowledged....

by event organizers when they marched by.

This was posted by leftchick last night, but rapidly sunk. Read it and weep.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=3&u=/ap/20031111/ap_on_re_us/veterans_day

[Zhade]

47. Infuriating.

"We do not consider them true veterans," said Arthur Smith, past department commander of the Massachusetts American Legion. "They're against the war in Iraq, they're against Vietnam, they're against everything a true American veteran stands for."

Fucking fascist fool.

[Bozita]

46. Wouldn't you like to see a battle record of the VFWer-in-charge?

memo: Running short on small-medium men's socks. Recommend shipment of six 24-packs.

Just guessing.

Just a joke.

We all know that the biggest flagwavers tend to be the biggest chickenhawks.

What about this heroic Florida leader?

Waiting for the hand-to-hand combat tales of the distinguished VFW commander-in-chief.

[Polemonium]

49. Freedom, we're loosing it, and shrub claims to be fighting for it.

Disgusting :puke:

[drfemoe]

50. People, Free Speech

has been banished, relegated to "zones" (usually a fenced off area, baseball park, 2 miles from the 'event').
The fact these guys even got to stand on the sidewalk was a breech of the "free speech zone" practice.
A camera might have seen them. :scared:

Furthermore, unless the courts put an end to this atrocity, it won't be long before any and all protestors
are termed "terrorists".
.. I am really concerned about Greenpeace, but I don't have a clue what to do about that.

Lady Justice help our court system.

You might be interested in the only court case to date challenging "free speech zones" ..
...
http://www.gjf.org/gjf_main.html
Brett Bursey, Director of the Network, was told that he had to either get rid of his sign, which read
"No War for Oil", or go to the designated zone. Bursey refused, pointing out that many of the several
thousand pro-Bush supporters were in the area with signs supporting Bush and Republican candidates.

"You're a protester," said one of the cops, "and protestors have to go to the free speech zone." When asked,
the arresting officer said that it was the "content" of the sign that required Bursey to leave the area."There was
never a question of security," Bursey said. "We were on public property, outside of their secured area.
The Secret Service agent that was directing the show was insistent that protestors, identified by their signs,
had to go to the free speech zone."

Bursey responded, "I am in a free speech zone, it's called the United States of America." He was then
handcuffed and, along with his offending sign, put in a paddy wagon where he was able to
watch Bush's arrival through the bars.
...
US Attorney General John Ashcroft and White House political advisor Karl Rove,
and other,have been issued subpoenas to appear at Brett Bursey's trial in
US Dristict Court in Columbia November 12. Bursey has been charged with
refusing to go to a "free speech zone" during a visit by President George Bush
in October 2002 and faces six months in jail and a $5,000 fine.
Bursey is the only citizen in the country that faces federal charges
for refusing to go to a designated free speech zone.

...
http://www.scpronet.com/#Other

Progressive Network Director on trial for free speech.
Network Director Brett Bursey had a hearing in federal court Aug. 28 on a motion to compel the government to release documents in his case. Brett has been charged with threatening the president for refusing to go to a "free speech zone" last October when Bush came to Columbia.
The judge granted the discovery motion and ordered the Secret Service and the Justice Department to provide all documents to him by Sept. 2. If the judge determines that something in the evidence relates to the establishment of free speech zones, restricted areas or Brett, he will give it to the defense.

The government argued that this information is classified on national security grounds. The judge agreed to an exparte meeting with the Secret Service to determine if the SS thinks anything he wants to give Brett compromises the president's security.

The Judge set a date for the trial for Wed. Nov. 12. in the new federal courthouse on Richland St. (behind the Strom Thurmond Bldg.)

Listen to the story about Bursey's case on All Things Considered on the National Public Radio, July 25 (you need Realplayer to hear the story). Printed transcript here.

On May 27, eleven members of the US Congress wrote to Attorney General John Ashcroft demanding that he drop the federal charges against Brett Bursey (click here to see letter)

Article in Sunday April 27 New York Times on Network Director Brett Bursey's arrest for threatening the President with sign that read, "NO WAR for OIL".

[jokerman93]

51. OK I'm going to say it on record here and now.

Soon it'll be time for a little free speech "zone" busting.

I'm a veteran. I served on a CT intelligence gathering team in 1'st BN 1st SFGA in Asia for 4 years.

I believe in peace through diplomacy.
I believe sovereignty for all nations and peoples.
I believe in the freedom to speak one's mind and be heard.
I believe in dissent.
I believe in activism.
I believe America is currently in a sharp cultural decent into totalitarianism.


I believe in crossing the line if necessary.

Sadly I feel it's coming time for that in this country.

This is not America.

Jokerman

[screembloodymurder]

56. I believe you're right

Civil disobedience may be required of all true patriots.

[northernsoul]

52. could there be a lawsuit for this?

Civil rights lawyers, I don't take Con Law until next semester (I'm a lowly 1L), but these guys were forced out of a parade that they were legally permitted to participate in, on the tacit or express wishes of the cops, this stinks to high heaven like a Section 1983 violation to me

[haele]

55. And Armistice Day/Veteran's day signifies - what?

Wadja idjuts think we wear the red poppies for?

For those who forgot what the symbolism and the poem originally stood for, the poppies for those who made the sacrifice of their youth, and for the hope that never again will men and women be called upon to sacrifice like that, as Nov 11th - Armistice Day - was originally to recognize the end of "The War to End All Wars".

In the true spirit of the meaning of the holiday, veterans who march for peace or to call attention to the wasted sacrifices that are made for an unjust cause should be able to march.

But then again, I remember reading accounts of "Fourth of July" celebrations in the 1830's and 1840's where people are bemoaning the fact that the true meaning of the holiday was forgotten, and it's just become another reason to parade about in good clothes, showing up one's poorer neighbors, and getting wasted at parties.

I doubt if the organizers of this parade had much more than that in mind when they made their decision to boot the Veterans who were acting in the true spirit of the day.

They should all turn in their poppies, if they even thought to wear them, those jingoistic recruiters of mindless cannon-fodder...

Haele

[screembloodymurder]

58. I thought you might appreciate my friends letter to the

Florida Times Union.

Subject: Veteran against this misguided war

Message:
I am a disabled volunteer Vietnam war veteran.
I believe that I have earned the right to honestly critique the policies of our government. I think that this war in Iraq never needed to happen. I think that cooler and wiser heads should have prevailed in the decision-making process. I think that the people that made the decision to start this war have a hidden agenda, and that they have implemented that agenda deceitfully and without regard to the great harm that has resulted to so many people, including our own fine servicepeople.
The American people are not stupid. The truth will out, and America will return to normalcy eventually. History will record this war as another fiasco caused by the misguided arrogance of a few people that never should have been put at the helm of our great ship of freedom and liberty.
The veterans in Jacksonville that were prevented from participating in the Veterans Day parade there are just loyal Americans trying to get our ship back on a course of reason. I salute them, as I also salute those veterans who do not agree with me on this very difficult issue.
Sincerely yours,

[Rose Siding]

57. Will the VFW nationally support that?

Today, I'm glad I don't live in FL. And I hope I would have stepped in if I'd seen such a thing going on. If they couldn't march, NO ONE should have marched.