Jesse Jackson offers aid to lacrosse accuser

[ECH1969]

The Rev. Jesse Jackson announced Saturday that he and his organization want to pay for the accuser in the Duke University rape allegations to finish school.

The woman was working as an escort the night of March 13, when she was hired to dance at a party hosted by members of the Duke men’s lacrosse team at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.

The woman was working as an escort the night of March 13, when she was hired to dance at a party hosted by members of the Duke men’s lacrosse team at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/429004.html

[rodeodance]

1. this is lovely to hear.

Speaking from the headquarters of The Rainbow PUSH Coalition in Chicago, Jackson said in a telephone interview Saturday that he had learned through various conversations that the woman, a 27-year-old student at N.C. Central University, has aspirations to go to graduate or law school.

The woman was working as an escort the night of March 13, when she was hired to dance at a party hosted by members of the Duke men’s lacrosse team at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.

Jackson said he wants to pay for the woman to finish school, “so she will never again, in an act of desperation, have to expose her body.”

“She should never again have to stoop that low to survive,” he said.

Jackson’s statements Saturday were the first he has made in response to the allegations of rape surfaced. He said he was waiting until the woman is “strong enough” to meet with him for prayer, and so he can formally offer her a scholarship.

[rodeodance]

2. I have not her described as a student, a women, a mother-only as a

stripper, an escort--or exotic dancer in the news.

[LisaL]

5. I have seen her described as a mother and a student numerous

times. Of course her profession is included in the description. Lacrosse players are described as lacrosse players too, after all.

[LostinVA]

16. Agreed -- it's driven me crazy

[LisaL]

20. She is a stripper. She did not go to their house because

she is a mother and a student. She went there as a stripper, well, pardon me, an exotic dancer. Why should she not be called what she actually is?

[FredScuttle]

28. Because she's more than that

She should get the same benefit that's afforded to Tom Delay, who's not solely referred to as "a sub-tree slug, leaving a trail of ooze and slime wherever he goes..."

[LisaL]

29. And lacrosse players are more than just lacrosse players too.

WTF is your point? She is described as a stripper because she went to the party to strip.
It's kind of relevant to the case, whether you want to admit it or not. I mean, she did not go in there because she is a mother or a student.

[FredScuttle]

33. Damn straight they're more than just lacrosse players

some of them are rapists. We'll see.

So, your fixation on making sure she's identified as a stripper...wouldn't have anything to do with the defense's attempt to mitigate the accusation by attacking the victim, now, would it? And its relevance to the accusation? Are you saying she was raped because she's a stripper?

[LisaL]

39. No, I am saying I do not think she was raped.

Regardless of whether she was a stripper.

[Darth_Kitten]

69. Right, they are selfish louses who like to see women treated like crap.

:shrug:

[LisaL]

73. Then charge them with that, if it's a crime.

Where is the evidence they raped anyone?

[Darth_Kitten]

75. that's still being figured out, isn't it?

n/t

[saigon68]

48. DELAY == "leaving a trail of ooze and slime wherever he goes..."

PRICELESS

[FredScuttle]

51. Admittedly swiped from an old Bloom County cartoon

Milo was getting a quote from a Senator in response to an article he was doing...the Senator hung up as Milo was getting to the "leaving a trail of slime wherever he goes..." part.

[saigon68]

97. Hell USE IT it fits the ass-wipe perfectly

[MountainMama]

124. Ah, yes.....

God, I miss Milo.

[Lars39]

31. She went there to earn money.

Food, clothes and an education are expensive enough,
add a child and childcare expenses into the mix and the cost is prohibitive.
You're lack of compassion towards this woman is very telling.

[LisaL]

40. We all have to earn money.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. You have no idea

why she went there.

You don't know her. You know what you read, and if you now trust the media that much, you might be a bit hypocritical and selective.

[xchrom]

46. lol -- maybe because NO ONE is just a stripper?

[Darth_Kitten]

68. Yeah, but it doesn't mean she is entitled to be treated....

as a lesser human being. :( She's a stripper, should we call those who invited her whoremongers or something?

[LisaL]

70. She is a stripper. Stripping is a job. If it's like any other job,

why be upset when she is called a stripper? If she was a school teacher, and was referred to as such, would that be considered smearing the alleged victim? You know, if being a stripper doesn't make her a lesser human being, and someone who strips for a living has nothing to be ashamed about-than lets not be offended when she is called what she is- a stripper.

[Darth_Kitten]

74. I'm hardly upset about it, but what's fair for one should be fair for all.

She's a stripper and the guys are ones who use strippers.

Being a stripper is not her identity.....

[anotherdrew]

82. to rephrase, being called a stripper should not be assumed to be demeaning

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

148. What a nasty, sexist post

Seriously. That's all I have to say, because you are seriously not worth the words.

Yet another "newbie" (hahahhahahaha -- sure) on my Ignore list.

Go play somewhere else.

[TankLV]

180. I agree with Screaming Whisper and Lizzy.

She's a STRIPPER, just like I'm an Architect.

Saying otherwise is like putting lipstick on a pig.

[rodeodance]

3. hopefully, she can have a fresh start.

[951-Riverside]

9. ...after serving time.

(if the allegations turns out to be completely false)

[LisaL]

14. No chance of that, IMO.

That DA is not going to charge her-ever, regardless of anything else.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Show me 1 time

When an accuser was charge for false allegations / giving false testimony in a rape case.

Will never happen

[OldLeftieLawyer]

91. Ever hear of

Tawana Brawley?

That was a classic.

[NaturalHigh]

25. It would not be politically expedient...

for the DA to charge her with making lying by making a false police report. He has staked too much on this case. IMO, even though the evidence (at least what the press has reported) is not on his side, he will push this for as long as he can, hoping that one of the players will finally take a plea deal just to be finished with the whole mess. Never mind guilt or innocence, this is about politics.

[LisaL]

27. You know, if they were poor, perhaps that could happen.

But as been pointed out numerous times, those are rich white boys. I doubt one of them will take a plea deal just to be finished with the whole mess.

[951-Riverside]

32. Thank Goodness they're not that stupid

and you don't have to be a "rich white boy" to understand when you plea guilty to something you didnt do its simply a bad idea.

[northzax]

128. doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time

the players have the advantage of having the best legal counsel money can buy. an indigent defendant, or one who has to cash out his 401K to hire a guy out of the phone book might be more pressured into a plea.

[NaturalHigh]

45. I agree that it won't happen.

It's what the DA is hoping for, though. He's backed himself into a corner, and he has to hope for whatever he can get at this point. Again, this is about politics, not justice, to the DA.

[SKKY]

127. "so she will never again...have to expose her body."

to anybody you you, huh Jesse?

[LostinVA]

145. Whaaaaaat?

Jackson can certainly be a showboat, but I have never, ever heard ONE WORD about him harassing women.

[superconnected]

140. what a back handed hand out.

[paul_fromatlanta]

4. i'm surprised it took this long

[stepnw1f]

6. ? (nt)

[paul_fromatlanta]

7. This case on both small scale and large is appropriate

Small scale, she is alone and facing a wave of counter attacks - Jackson is a Christian with the power to help.

On a larger (and perhaps cynical scale) Jesse jackson is very aware of profile. Taking cases like this helps him too.

[stepnw1f]

8. Could

Probably is... better he does than doesn't. He has championed rights of many low profile folks too. So I wouldn't naturally assume it was just for face. I believe he is a pretty good man.

[paul_fromatlanta]

11. No, not just for face... but he is smart and aware of how this plays

He is a Christian and be believes in helping but he is capable of seeing multiple angles.

[madrchsod]

12. jessie is ok

he lost some cred with me sometime after the "i am somebody" crusade ,i think after that he became the message not the messenger

[KittyWampus]

77. Bob Herbert Had Some Strong Words For Jackson/Sharpton Not Long Ago

when those supposed black leaders all showed up for Tookie's execution.

Herbert wanted to know why they showed up to holler at some 'celebrity' cause but don't bother confronting the corporations peddling a popular culture that celebrates gangstas, misogyny and violence.

[madrchsod]

10. nice idea..but church folks paying for college of an escort?

well i guess that`s the christian thing to do
the whole affair is tragic in a way. why did she decide to lower herself to do this in front of stupid white drunk college creeps? did she really need the money that bad? but it`s obvious that she really did`t understand the complications of her work. drunk guys think and do really stupid things in the presences of a good looking woman who dances at private parties. the number one rule that she forgot or didn`t know is that she should have had two really large guys protecting her and shit like what happened to her would have never happened.
i hope this woman can make more of herself than the allegded attackers ever will

[LisaL]

13. Shit like what happened to her? What exactly did happen to her?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[LetsGoMurphys]

15. Can u say Tawana Brawley?

You have to be really sure before you come out to support someone like this. Backing someone blindly just based on race is just setting yourself to look stupid. I love Al Sharpton, I think he is hilarious and as close to always right as you can get, but he never really recovered from Tawana Brawley.

[LostinVA]

17. She was raped. The medical evidence says that

She isn't a liar, a scammer, a hoaxer. She was RAPED. Now, the DA just has to discover who did it.

Can YOU say "blaming and smearing the victim"? I knew you could.

I'm sick of this on DU.

[LisaL]

18. No, the medical evidence does not say that.

[AllieB]

23. She was assaulted, whether there was DNA evidence or not

I really can't believe the amount of animosity toward this woman-especially from other women.

[LisaL]

24. What exactly do you base this on?

Evidence consistent with rape? What else is this evidence could be consistent with?

[AllieB]

26. The victim had bruises on her legs and elsewhere on her body

I'm going to wait until all the facts come out, and not rely on the heresay of the defense team..

You obviously have an axe to grind over this case, so I'm not going to argue with you. I've seen these threads spiral out of control, and I'm not the argumentative type. Good night.

[jberryhill]

34. Just a minor nit-picking point...

"Consistent with" is often used phrase when you have evidence that could be due to several different things, but is at least not inconsistent with the claimed cause. Say I had a skinned knee, and I claimed that I had been pushed and fell over. My injury is consistent with my claim. I haven't seen a link to a medical report in any of these threads, and there was something like one press statement about the medical exam. Some have posted things about a dislocated leg, etc., but a link would be helpful.

Someone can get all sorts of bruises in a plain old fight, too, but can someone provide a link to some sort of statement about internal injuries? Saying she had bruises on her legs and elsewhere on her body is certainly consistent with a rape, but I believe it just may be possible to get bruises on one's legs and elsewhere on one's body without being raped.

That said, it is of course a great thing for Mr. Jackson to help out this woman with college expenses.

[LisaL]

35. That is so true. Lets face it-if there was a test

that was a 100 % accurate, and could demonstrate that a woman was raped-the rape conviction rates would be a lot higher than they are now.
So, to offer the fact that she has injuries consistent with rape as proof she was raped for sure-I don't think so.

[TankLV]

182. "She was raped, whether there is any evidence or not"!

Love the all knowing idiots on this board.

ALL the evidence so far - ALL THE EVIDENCE - proves the boys were innocent, and SHE was drunk and bruzed BEFORE she arrived at the alleged incident.

But who care for the facts when the JUST KNOW!

Remind you of anybody and the WMD, Iraq, Iran?

I knew you could!

[me b zola]

44. Thank you for being the voice of sanity. n/t

[Centered]

50. Unless you know this woman personally

that is one hell of a claim.

The evidence will come out in court and then we will know.

What I get sick of is someone who blindly accepts that every woman who accuses someone of rape is 100% truthful and an actual victim of a crime.

This woman should not be bashed in any way however neither should those she has accused. Once the truth is discovered then feel free to bash the either the men responsible or the woman who made a false claim.

Rape is too serious a crime for the uninformed (that means all of us not "officially involved") to be making accusations or jumping to conclusions.

[LetsGoMurphys]

76. That is my point

no one should jump to conclusions to avoid looking like a fool.

[LostinVA]

101. I don't look like a fool -- I look like someone listening to facts

The fact is, the ER medical personnel have said their exam shows she has injuries, signs, and symptoms consistent with rape. ERs see, unfortunately, thousand of sexual assault victims a year. THEY are the experts.

Preach about looking like fools an jumping to conclusion to some of these other people on the thread, for making stuff up and listening to half truths and spin. Until anything else comes out, for now I'm listening to the Duke Hospital ER professionals.

[RatRacer]

122. The facts aren't as specific as you'd like to believe

Those same facts are consistent with rough sex. Or they are consistent with rape, but none of these lacrosse players were the ones that did it. Or they are consistent with having semi-rough sex then getting slapped around a little by a boyfriend. There are accounts that she was already pretty roughed up when she arrived at the party. Problem is, we don't have all the info.

So, to jump to the conclusion that she's telling the truth about these players and they're just lying to cover up something is making you look like a fool.

[LostinVA]

151. Nope, you are totally wrong, and you show you don't get rape

Rough sex and rape aren't the same thing. You thinking it is, and leaves the same type of signs, is very, very scary to me.

You don't know the lacrosse players didn't do it. I don't know if they did. Over 70% of rape convictions have no DNA evidence present. Understand? Sure you do -- you just like blaming the vitim, instead. Makes you feel like a big important guy, dosn';t it? Calling women fools and stupid. Yeah, it does,

And, fuck you. I'm not the fool, you are, for being so desperate to look like you know what you
re talking about that you make up things: I never said the players were the rapists, although I think it is probable. She was RAPED. And, she had no bruises when she came to the party, as petr the primary witness..

You know, forget it. I'm tired of wasting time on misogynistic guys like you one these threads. Just play with someone else.

[superconnected]

164. notice it the same old misognists here

Why bother engaging them. It's like arguing with the KKK.. Nothing you say will change the opinion of someone who hates women. Wheter she got raped or not, will not matter to them.

[LostinVA]

99. No, it isn't one hell of a claim

I trust the ER docs and nurses and their examination. They have reported her injuries are consistent with rape.

I get sick of someone who blindly refuses to see the difference between facts and opinion.

I trust the ER medical personnel. They see many, many raped patients every year -- they are the experts. Not the media. Not the defense attorney. And not even the DA. Not me. And certainly not YOU.

[FredScuttle]

109. Amen, Lost

Funny how every defense utterance must be given serious consideration, yet we're the only ones who raise the hospital evaluation.

[Centered]

113. At what point did I claim to be an expert?

The hostility in your post tells me that you are not in a state to discuss this issue rationally. But what the heck I'll give it a shot. Did you actually read my post and consider my point of view??

I am not blindly refusing to see the difference between facts and opinion, what I am saying is wait until ALL of the facts come out before passing judgment. To simply assume that this woman was raped at this party (as opposed to somewhere else) because she said so undermines what our justice system is based on. Innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Yes I am aware that those will say that "injuries are consistent with rape" can mean rough sex, or penetration before your personal lubrication kicks in. But that could mean she had rough sex with a boyfriend (who didn't care if she was ready) before the party. But they don't know that for a fact either so that crowd should stop passing judgment. And yes I am also aware of the theory that she sold sex and they refused to pay up... once again they should STFU.

Now as I said (if you read that far into my post) THIS WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE BASHED IN ANYWAY but neither should those she has accused. This is the same stuff we have seen in the Kobe case, He is a rapist or She is a gold digger. This womans claim should be handled seriously and investigated completely (at no point have I called this woman a liar I just oppose people who immediately believe or disbelieve her) I most certainly believe her identity should have never been released by ANYONE until the trial.

Everyone should just grab the popcorn and wait until we hear all of the FACTS.

PS you can't trust anything you have hear in the news about the medical "injuries" until you have seen the actual medical report which is currently confidential information.

I'll say it again, Rape is too serious a crime for anyone outside of the issue to be passing any judgments until all that facts are out.

[LostinVA]

153. Gosh, calling me unstable -- you really are a piece of work

Ignore, buddy. Ignore. I don't waste me time with people like you. POOF.

[Centered]

185. And instead of rationally conveying your view

you turn tail and run away. If it makes you feel better I would be in the front of the line with the despicable label if these men are found to be guilty as well as any others who witnessed the event and did nothing.
The only difference between us my friend is I will wait just a bit longer than you will to pass judgment. I'm sorry "people like me" stand up for fairness and equal protection under the law and it saddens me that you do not feel the same (on this particular issue... perhaps another?)

Sorry you are ignoring me but I wish you well anyway.

Peace

[Renew Deal]

195. It's no loss.

I was put on ignore by her last week. Why? Because I dared to ask questions about the case. She can't support her ideas, so she prefers to ignore anything that challenges her fragile view.

[Renew Deal]

194. Oh

She's way beyond unreasonable on this. She was ranting last week, making accusations based on false assumptions and loads of personal attacks to boot.

[Doremus]

57. Ain't it the truth.

I logged on, opened this thread and thought I'd gotten a computer virus that changed my DU bookmark to Freeperville. :crazy:

[LostinVA]

100. Tell me about it

I had to put -- literally -- hal;f the thread on IGNORE because of the "computer virus."

[LisaL]

19. I don't think he cares whether the allegations are false or not.

She will get her scholarship regardless.
"The Reverend Jesse Jackson says his Rainbow/Push Coalition will pay the college tuition for a black stripper who has made rape allegations against white members of the Duke University lacrosse team.

And the offer stands even if it turns out she fabricated her story."
http://www.wral.com/news/8729102/detail.html
Maybe he should start a scholarship fund.

[goclark]

21. Rev. Al did not have to "recover" in the Black Community

from Tawana Brawley.

In the Black Community we are able to see all facets of our leaders and we know how they will get tattered when the MSM gets on them.

That is why we usually present a united front and support our own.
Al and Jesse will not "look stupid" in our eyes, they will be recognized for what they are....OUR LEADERS that had the guts to MARCH, CALL, TALK TO anybody to get justice.

If she is found to be wrong ~ they will know it and they will still see that she is cared for. Jesse and Al are like Parents to our community. They will not "look stupid" to us.

NOTE: We do not consider the 3 C's(Clarence, Colin and Condi) in our FAMILY because they don't have our best interest at heart and we know it.

What we say about... Michael, Kobe, Al, Jesse, Cynthia to each other is one thing but "WE ARE FAMILY" when the chips are down.

We learned it from Slavery and we still stick together ~ I love that about my people.

The sooner the STICK TOGETHER glue starts working on the Democrats maybe we can get back in the House of Bush in Washington DC.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

36. If she is found to be wrong ... they will still see that she is cared for.

If that is so, then what about the players?

[goclark]

38. Something tells me the players will be WELL

taken care of!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

41. Where do they go

to get their season back?

Again, subject to your stipulation.

[FredScuttle]

53. Maybe to the liquor store

that sold them the booze they served to underage partygoers.

Maybe to the local NAACP chapter to apologize for their racist taunts.


I got the world's smallest violin and it's playing for those assholes :nopity:

[goclark]

64. They will not be the 1st nor will they be the last

college frat boys/girls (of any color) who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are some lessons in life that we learn the hard way.

I was in a sorority and I know that we were pretty silly during those days.

It is a carefree time, especially for those in the Middle to Upper class.
The main focus is getting away from your parents,spending their money,trying new things and having a blast at the fraternity house!

Those are golden years for that particular group.

As I recall, most of the jocks at my University were on scholarships and at that time they were given fancy cars by the wealthy Alumni, free dinners at fancy restaurants, trips and $$$'s while they were in school.

They partied ALL the time! They didn't have to study because they were given the answers to the tests.

For those that may not have the finances and are not able to "Party" in that manner,some made good choices and some make bad choices.

Life is all about choices and consequences.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

72. silly, carefree individual

"There are some lessons in life that we learn the hard way.

I was in a sorority and I know that we were pretty silly during those days.

It is a carefree time, especially for those in the Middle to Upper class."

I was in school on the GI Bill, and I was watching every penny. I can't tell you how delighted I am to hear that everything was silly and carefree for you.

Again, subject to your stipulation that this is Tawana Brawley II:

Had Duke played Virginia in Charlottesville yesterday afternoon as originally scheduled, the stands at Klockner Stadium would have been filled with, I'm guessing, about ten thousand fans, there to see an upseat, or at the least, a good game of lacrosse.

Instead, for Duke, the season is over. Not only that, but the lacrosse program has been trashed for years, as the prospects are now free to go elsewhere. Your attitude is a hand-waving "oh, they'll be taken care of."

I guess that's the best I can expect from a silly, carefree individual: a condescending attitude.

[LostinVA]

102. They are university students, not pro lacrosse players

Seriously, what difference does it make??? Sports aren't the reason to go to college. They can play in the IM lacrosse league if they want to play lacrosse. If they really love the game, then that's all that counts.

[LisaL]

42. By whom? What are you implying?

[goclark]

55. They will be taken care of by their middle class + parents,

their friends and loved ones,Duke University and any corporations that will be happy to hire them in the future.

What in the world did you think I was implying!

[LisaL]

60. Well, for one, it seems to encourage false accusations-

accuse men of rape, get a college scholarship, no matter what. I mean, how does it work-saying she will get her scholarship even if she made it up-well, a lot of people could use a college scholarship.

[bloom]

105. You seem to overlook that sports teams encourage rape

(as do fraternities). So why are they getting scholarships and special privileges? Scholarships should go to scholars - people who actually want to study. Not to those who want to run around on a field with a bunch of guys and a ball and pretend they are better than everyone else because they play a little game.

I expect this woman is more serious about studying - seeing as how she is a mother with children to support - than a bunch of guys right out of high school - who are harassing women.

And you have nothing of substance beyond what the Defense attorney said (and has gotten in the media) to believe that her accusation was false.

[LisaL]

193. What is there of substance to indicate her accusations are

true?
I see so many things contradicting what she claimed had happened to her.

[bloom]

198. The Grand Jury didn't send down an indictment for nothing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x953130

And if you don't know by now - you haven't been paying attention - or you are just listening to the spin.

You could say that there are contradictions in the case that says Bush took us into an illegal war. I would say that those contradictions are bogus.

[Freddie Stubbs]

108. Perhaps that is why Sharpton has been so quiet about this

[WhiteTara]

30. good for Jesse. This woman has been

victimized more than once and to be comforted by the minister must really help her.

[oneinok]

37. oh boo hoo

You people are sugar coating this. How about we set up a party for the players who have been called everything vile under the sun?

Good grief.

[WhiteTara]

43. you people? We are all one people

and although you may not realize it, you too, are but a thread in the web of life. Someday, something will happen to you and I can only hope that you will find some comfort, just as I hope this woman finds some comfort.

Just as I always believe a child who says they have been abused, I believe a woman when she says she has been raped. Especially a black woman. Even the DA says a crime has been committed. I suggest you wait and in the meanwhile, learn about compassion. You seem to be short of it and compassion is what marks you as a human being as opposed to an animal on two legs.

[mondo joe]

49. "I always believe a child who says they have been abused".

Look up the McMartin Preschool.

Although for some people all that's needed is an accusation, for others - like myself - there is still s need for a trial, complete with presumption of innocence.

[FredScuttle]

54. All I need

is the eyewitness who said that they yelled at the stripper "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt, bitch"

The court may have to give them the presumption of innocence, but I sure as hell don't.

[mondo joe]

56. No, you certainly don't have to.

But it seems for many here, WHO the accuser is matters more than any amount of evidence.

[FredScuttle]

58. What seems to matter to a lot of people here

is a demand to treat these lacrosse players "fairly" while dissecting every part of the victim's life as if they were part of the defense research team. Promoting every defense statement about the victim as fact while ignoring real evidence, such as the hospital rape evaluation. Demanding apologies after the DNA results from the initial test were released, as if that exonerated any of the players.

[mondo joe]

61. I'll disagree.

There is a lot of "certainty" on the boards on all sides. I frankly can't see how anyone can feel so certain - I know I don't.

But I'd have to feel more comfortable with a determination based on evidence rather than a kneekerk belief JUST because of the race or gender of the accuser.

[LisaL]

63. I am sorry, I keep hearing that, but what does it have to do with

reality. When the story broke, seems most assumed right away they were in fact guilty. We also know they got criminal records. Why is saying the alleged victim has a criminal record means someone is dissing her, but saying that some players have criminal record means they are treated fairly.
We know all kinds of unflattering things about them-for one, they have been accused of public urination-that's not pretty.
Their season got canceled before anyone was even charged. What about "innocent until proven guilty"?
So, sorry, if I don't buy that press have been trashing the woman while treating these men fairly.

[oneinok]

66. The Duke team needs some apologies

You people tried them before there was a trial. You tried them before you heard the other side. The DA is in the middle of a heated election. I wonder why he gave over 70 media interviews over the past two weeks?
You are so open minded...so democratic.

[Umbram]

71. Human nature

Here's the problem.

One group of people like to play CSI with each piece of evidence that comes out on a daily basis. Rather than direct all that energy to a good cause, like discovering what is going on in the show "Lost", they speculate and probably appear biased in the process. For this group, it's a nosy sort of game to play when Soaps aren't on.

Another group of people work on an entirely emotional level, don't bother with the evidence, and will predictably assume guilt or innocence based on bias.

I'd say another group feels the need to advocate for the victim(s) (having already decided that the victim is either the woman or the team) and have taken up the symbolic role of championing the cause of all similarly situated individuals, regardless of what the truth of the matter is.

[LostinVA]

104. You People You People You People

Maybe you should go chat among "your" people, since you don't think the posters on DU are yours...

[FredScuttle]

67. I wasn't aware the victim was being accused of rape and strangulation

When that happens, then I'll think her criminal record is germane to the discussion. But before then, I don't see why her record would indicate whether she was raped or not. Did her record influence the hospital evaluation? Did her record cause the physicial trauma to her genitals?

In my estimation, the players have gotten much fairer treatment than the victim, probably because of all the screaming heads on Faux News and elsewhere complaining that these fine young men are being "tried" in the press...not even appreciating the irony of saying these words as the defense trots out one theory after another in daily press conferences about the victim's past, her credibility, her mental state, whether she was drunk, etc.

BTW, their season was cancelled and their coach resigned for a lot of other reasons than the rape accusation...there were, for example, violations of school policies regarding serving alcohol to minors. The players will get their day in court to prove their innocence, but they are not entitled to the privilege of representing the school after breaking so many of its rules.

[BrownOak]

98. Fortunately, they don't have to depend on you

Without knowing the context in which that was said, particularly what preceded it, it would certainly seem pretty reactionary to jump from the obviously appropriate label of azzhole to determining someone to be a rapist.

[FredScuttle]

110. I need the context for a statement like that?

I'd love to hear what context the statement "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt, bitch" uttered by a white college student to a black woman is appropriate. I'm all ears.

[BrownOak]

115. Appropriate, no.... less incendiary, certainly

So if the two had been arguing over something and she made a racial-based insult to him and he replied with the grandpa line (BTW - nice editorializing with the "bitch" part) that still makes him a rapist in your mind, right?

[FredScuttle]

117. Now we're aruguing hypotheticals vs. the eyewitness' account

And no, there is no circumstance where it's OK, or less incendiary, or whatever justification you want to add, for a white male to tell a black woman to thank her grandparent for his cotton shirt as some sort of celebration of slavery. Leaving aside your ridiculous assertion that anything this woman said or did justifies or somehow mitigates this disgusting slur, it's telling that this asshole chose these words to address her. And people say that those of us defending the victim are playing the race card!

Like I said above, I'm not held to the threshold of proof that the court these players will soon be facing...I am more than ready to believe the victim when I see the behavior of the partygoers (i.e. this disgusting quote and the post-attack e-mail sent out by one of the other partygoers fantasizing about killing and skinning more strippers). I believe the victim.

[BrownOak]

125. I must have missed the part

where I said it was OK to use a racial slur. I must have missed the part where I said it was justified. Or perhaps I just overestimated my audience.

My point, which seems to escape you, is that you want to convict these guys based on your 30-second sound byte. You want to ignore any possibility that the strippers could have used a racial slur toward the players which would certainly greatly increase the odds of a racial slur being yelled at them.

You're welcome to ignore everything else and decide who is guilty. But don't expect me or anyone else willing to look at the greater body of evidence out there to sit silently while you make your proclamations.

[FredScuttle]

131. Just because you don't actually say the word "Boo"

doesn't mean you're trying to scare someone.

Your posts are dancing around the explicit statement that the woman got what she deserved (re: the racial slur) because she may have said something to them first. What I'm reacting to is your (continued) attempt to invent hypotheticals to mitigate an ugly, ugly racial slur. You are the one saying:

"Without knowing the context in which that was said, particularly what preceded it"
"less incendiary, certainly"
"if the two had been arguing over something and she made a racial-based insult to him"

I don't care to waste my time imagining what this rape victim may have said to her attackers and those who enabled them. I could also consider the possibility that the strippers have superpowers, but they were crippled by the Krypton necklaces worn by the rapists, but I deal in common sense. I have the eyewitness account of a player yelling a disgusting racial slur at a black rape victim.

[BrownOak]

134. You have no such eyewitness account...

You have the eyewitness account of a person yelling a disgusting racial slur at another person. It is you who makes the leap of logic that she is a rape victim and that he is one of the attackers or those who enabled the attacker.

It's funny that you don't care to waste your time imagining what this alleged rape victim may have said but you have no trouble wasting your time imagining what these alleged rapist did.

[FredScuttle]

139. Keep floating in the ether...you'll come down eventually

There is the account of Mr. Jason Bissey, a neighbor who witnessed the scene:

"Jason Bissey, who was on his porch next door during the party, saw the victim that night. He said Friday that he wishes he had called police at the first sign something was wrong.

He saw at least 30 men go into the white three-bedroom house, which Duke officials say is rented by three lacrosse team captains.

Bissey saw two women arrive and, after they were in the house 20 minutes, come out. As they got into a car, men shouted, Bissey said.

"Some of them were saying things like, 'I want my money back,' " Bissey said.

He recalled the racially charged statements at least one man was yelling at the victim.

"When I was outside, one guy yelled at her, '... Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt,' " Bissey said."


Now, I understand you're doing gymnastics worthy of a 12-year old Russian to obsfucate and blur who said it. Why don't I think that these are just nice boys and that this slur must have been uttered by a skinhead who just happened to walk by at that moment?

"Bissey and other neighbors are accustomed to hearing loud parties at the house. It's one of many rental houses near the Duke campus where police stay busy, breaking up rowdy parties and rounding up minors suspected of underage drinking.

Last fall, residents were worried about more than drunken antics and loud music. Many complained that students disregarded their neighbors and police, and were disrespectful when confronted."

Here's the link to the News Observer article for your further edification: http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/421799.html

Oh, BTW....she IS a rape victim. No leap of logic there, just going by the word of the doctors and nurses in the emergency room where she was treated.

[BrownOak]

146. My sincere apologies

I've made some unreasonable assumptions that you were able to follow the conversation. Let me slow it down for you.

See Dick play lacrosse.
See Dick have many parties during the school year.
See Dick piss on his neighbor's lawn.
See Dick get cited for noise and alcohol violations.
See Dick be a dick.
See Dick invite Jane over to strip for Dick and his buddies.
See Dick and Jane have an argument.
See Dick yell "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" at Jane.
See Jane claim rape.
See Jane's doctor find signs consistent with rape.
See no one see Dick rape Jane.
See Fred make an unsupported assumption.

I do not dispute the fact that one of the players who was at that party said the "grandpa" remark.
I do not dispute the fact that the students who lived in that house are pretty much assholes.
However, I do dispute the logic that allows you to go from those two facts to the belief that these guys are guilty based on the allegations and the medical exam.

[FredScuttle]

154. See Fred put BrownOak on ignore

Enjoy your stay

[WhiteTara]

79. I'm well aware of the McMartin trial

I was a reporter and covered it. However, the children in that case were coached by adults to say those things. Remember the Salem witch trials. Same thing.
But a small child who comes and says "he did this" doesn't have a frame of reference to lie. I have also been a children's advocate for a number of years and have seen the children's side of this. I believe the children.

[mondo joe]

86. Then I'd venture to say you failed to learn anything from your coverage.

You are operating on a lot of assumptions about who would ever lie about what.

But you're missing any notion of evidence.

Too bad.

[Umbram]

87. Please explain the logic?

Kids can be taught to lie, but you'll believe anything they say. That seems to be what you are saying?

[mondo joe]

88. Also, people who say kids don't lie either doesn't know kids or is in

deep denial.

Kids certainly can and do lie, often without understanding the ramifications.

[Umbram]

59. Decide justice based on race, where have I heard that before?

...I believe a woman when she says she has been raped. Especially a black woman.

Wow, evidence be damned, if you know the race of the victim you can determine guilt. There are a lot of people in the South historically that could do the same thing.

How about supporting the potential victim and deciding guilt after the evidence is on the table?

[goclark]

65. Powerful "We are but a thread in the web of life,"powerful

I'm writing that down BareNaked Liberal.

I agree with what you said with every fiber of my being.

Speak!

[WhiteTara]

78. I'm glad you like it. I should have

attributed the author. Chief Seattle. here is the complete text of his speech. Enjoy
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/184.html

[goclark]

80. Bookmarked thanks so much!

[951-Riverside]

83. BareNakedLiberal I doubt I would still be here if I said that

you people? We are all one people

Lets use your own words "flip-flopper"

I believe a woman when she says she has been raped. Especially a black woman.

Had I said the same about a WHITE woman victimized by a gang of black sports players not only would I be called a racist, coward, Minuteman, freeper, etc I would have been banned almost instantly.

and although you may not realize it, you too, are but a thread in the web of life.

*yawn*

Someday, something will happen to you and I can only hope that you will find some comfort,

Alot of things have happened in my life I can't say I'm comfortable but I've never told lies that could ruin another person's life, career, family, etc.

just as I hope this woman finds some comfort.

If she lied she can find it in prison.

Just as I always believe a child who says they have been abused,

Until you're the accused.

I believe a woman when she says she has been raped.

And I always believe duh President 'cause he never ever ever lies to the people. :rofl:

Especially a black woman.

So much for being "all one people"

Even the DA says a crime has been committed.

Forgot everything else if the DA (who is facing an election) says so it MUST be true :rofl:

I suggest you wait and in the meanwhile,

...Waiting

learn about compassion.

Of course when people don't see things in your way which seems both racist (oooh I used the R word) and naive they are lacking compassion by your standards :rofl:

You seem to be short of it

.

Yes, it does "seem" that way to you but than again you've admitted to blindly believing people based on race.

and compassion is what marks you as a human being as opposed to an animal on two legs.

We are animals with two legs although a far advanced animal.

[RatRacer]

121. That's ridiculous

I don't immediately dismiss any accusation of such a serious nature and it should certainly be fully investigated, but the accused have just as much right to my belief in their innocence as the alleged victim has of her accusations. When did the most foundational principle of our justice system get turned on it's head and we now assume guilt until innocence is proven?

[ScreamingWhisper]

129. ...observations

"....Someday, something will happen to you...."
Some try not to allow themselves to be in such a compromising position. Wouldn't that be a responsible, parent-like position to take?

"...I believe a woman when she says she has been raped. Especially a black woman."
I too believe it should be taken seriously...but why ESPECIALLY a black woman? Is there a greater amount of scrutiny
that should be placed SPECIFICALLY due to race, or shouldn't ALL rape accusations be taken seriously, period?

"Even the DA says a crime has been committed."
But nothing says in the evidence that it was from this team of athletes. Don't some of the time-stamped photos(from multiple sources of cameras) show this?

"You seem to be short of it and compassion is what marks you as a human being as opposed to an animal on two legs."
Judge much?

[0007]

89. Argh!

[LostinVA]

103. "You people" -- gosh, mean you be any more transparent?

[xchrom]

47. i just want to say here that stripping is a job --

like any job.

there's nothing wrong with it as a job.

i've had several dear friends in life who did that as a living -- and they were wonderful people and friends.

dissing this woman -- or anyone -- based on their job is reprehensible.

[Centered]

52. It's a damn good job too

Show me the money $$$$

I could go for 2-4K+ a week.

[mondo joe]

62. There's a puritan streal on the left as well as the right.

Funny how you don't have to scratch too far below the surface to find it.

[xchrom]

81. and it makes no sense from either side.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. I had a college professor

back in the sixties who said that the hippies always turn out to be the biggest Puritans.

He was right. Isn't this an astonishing display of bigotry and ignorance?

Freepers have taken over this thread, save for a few clear-thinking individuals.

[mondo joe]

94. It sometimes seems the split isn't right/left but control/freedom.

And nothing is more disheartening for me than finding those that i thought were my allies to be as controlling and authoritarian as those on the right.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

95. That, yes, as well as

tolerance/intolerance.

I'm always disheartened, too, at "lefties" who willingly, vocally, and gleefully discard the Constitutional freedoms we're fighting so hard to protect, just so that their biases can remain delusionally intact.

Disheartening, indeed.

But, we're not alone.

Read about Neil Young's upcoming CD here - http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2006/04/new-neil-young-album-life-in-war-wont.html - and be cheered.

[femmedem]

116. And thank you, to you and the other clear-thinking individuals.

LostinVA, FredScuttle, BareNakedLiberal and a few others I bet I'm forgetting: :yourock:

Sorry I haven't stood by you all more openly, but the ugliness on the thread sometimes gets to be so much that I can't even respond.

I don't understand why some people have such vitriol towards a woman who at the very, very least was beat up.

Hey Leftie: off the topic, but do you know anything about homelessness and the Fair Housing Act?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

138. Sorry,

but that's beyond my ken.

You'll need to find a lawyer in your area. Good luck.

[Phx_Dem]

107. politics has nothing to do with it IMO

It's the "shared x-tian values" that leads jackson to say stupid shit.

[Phx_Dem]

106. That's exactly what I was thinking

I think it's pathetic that Jackson wants to help her but at the same time insults her.

[sofa king]

84. Time for the GOP to charge up Bizzaro Jesse.

Who is the anti-Jacksonbot, you ask? Why it's Sean Hannity's buddy, the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson.

Peterson continually claims that certain high-profile activists (specifically the Reverends Jesse and Al) in the African-American community are extorting hush money from parties involved in high profile, racially charged media circuses. I don't know if that's true or not, but wherever the giants tread, the Reverend Peterson is wallowing in their muddy footprints. Like this.

I also don't know how Fox News and the Rev. Peterson are going to explain an offer for continuing education as an attempt to extort Duke University, but I'm certain that's how the script is likely read tomorrow morning over at Fox.

Let's keep our eyes out for the Reverend Peterson this time and measure his response time and to which media outlets his response is carried. Sadly, whatever the Rev. Peterson's true thoughts and motivations are, his actions will help us better understand how The Man operates.

[dolstein]

85. Oh for crying out loud

Hey, if Jesse wants to pay for this person's education, fine. But did he have to make a public announcement? You know Jesse, sometimes it isn't about you. Personally, I'm more than a little turned off by these ambulance chasing shenanigans.

[Catchawave]

90. *ditto*

and thank you. :hi:

[FredScuttle]

96. On the other hand

it's nice to see someone take a public stand for this victim. Lord knows we've heard from the defenders of the Duke players (Committee for Fairness to Duke Families, for example).

[dolstein]

111. Let someone in the local community do that

I'm sure that Jesse Jackson would love to be the person most white Americans think of when they think about the African American community. But what's good for Jesse isn't necessarily good for the African American community.

[FredScuttle]

114. Like or not, Rev. Jackson is a prominent figure

and if you don't have a problem with the Duke families bringing in Washington superflack Bob Bennett to cast aspersions on the victim, then you shouldn't have a problem with Jessie coming to support her. I guess your "concern" is that Jesse's presence will alienate white America...I say, so the fuck what? Which white people, outside of the DA, have supported her side of events?

Yes, Rev. Jackson has an ego and this keeps his name in the papers. Which makes him just like, say, 98% of white political figures. Funny, I don't read the threads about the Rev. Billy Graham's lust for glory when he visiting the sick and needy.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

118. Actually, quite a few 'white' people

have participated in the rallies in support of the accuser, including plenty of students on the Duke campus.

[FredScuttle]

119. Point taken

I meant to say "prominent" white people...I never meant to imply that there aren't good people of every color in Durham who support those who need it.

[goclark]

123. Agree whole heartedly Fred! Jesse is not afraid

of alienating anyone.

He was trained by MLK Jr. and he is not doing anything different today than he did when they Marched and had the KKK and the dogs bitting at them for trying to see that EVERYONE had Rights in America.

He doesn't live his life to prove that he is worthy by some White Mens definition of worthy!

If he was waiting for WHITE MEN to tell him that he could take a step to the right or left, he would have never marched with Dr. MLK.

Rev. Jackson seems to get under the skin of some White Shirts because they just can't keep him on the Plantation that they believe he should be on.

[FredScuttle]

132. The day that Rush, Hannity, et. al. go after Pat Robertson and Falwell

with the same glee and invective they exhibit when airing another smear on Rev. Jackson is the day I eat my shoe.

[goclark]

136. You shoe is and will be in good shape FredScuttle

cause that day will never come. LOL

[TankLV]

184. You do make an interesting valid point.

But to condemn the so far innocent players while giving the accuser a pass is plain wrong.

Nobody knows until all the evidence is in.

And the evidence that is has been in so far leads to the innocence of the players, and makes great credence to the lack of truthfulness of the accuser.

[Judi Lynn]

112. Absolutely. n/t

[Renew Deal]

196. How do you know she's a victim?

There has been new trial. Not even an indictment. So how do you know there's a victim to take a stand for?

[RatRacer]

120. I'm continually amazed...

...whenever a situation comes up like this, how many people automatically start lining up on one side or the other and castigating people on the other side for their view when none of us know what happened. I mean, it would be one thing if people had the humility to say, "I'm not sure what happened. I have my suspicions but I'm there's enough conflicting evidence that we know right now that I'm not going to bet anything on either side." Instead, we have people stating one position or the other and getting all pissy about it as if all the facts are on the table.

Grow up people. The woman in this case has several factors in play that cast serious doubt on her accusations. However, there is enough evidence that something happened that you can't assume the lacrosse players are innocent either. Why don't we wait for the trial to start acting as if we know the truth and give each other a little grace in the meantime?

[goclark]

130. What you are saying makes sense

but I just watched the coverage on CNBC and it was loud and bashed,bashed,bashed the lady.

It seems, in America, we must take a side before the case is decided. :)

[FredScuttle]

133. You assume a level playing field

I doubt this rape victim has the PR staff and mouthpieces getting her side of the story out in the press...all she and the Durham community have is a DA who is proceeding with his investigation. Our faith is in him and the case he will present.

As for the "several factors in play that cast serious doubt on her accusations", can you name me one that wasn't broadcast by the defense team? Oh, the DNA results? Sorry, they don't disprove her accusation nor do they exonerate anyone.

[BrownOak]

135. Do factors brought to light by the defense

and verified by the media count? Things like the time stamped photos, or the reports of the witnesses who saw the alleged victim in the time after incident was to have taken place, or the statements by the other escort... do they count?

Just trying to make sure we know the ground rules before anyone suggests something to consider.

[FredScuttle]

137. Here's a clue

the defense is claiming all this exculpatory "evidence", but refuses to share it with the media. The "time-stamped" pictures? Show me the paper that got to take a look at them.

[BrownOak]

150. OK, here you go...

Here's one

http://www.wral.com/news/8751211/detail.html


Here's the other

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-724585.html


What else do you need?

[FredScuttle]

155. What else do I need? How about credible evidence?

The defense produces a series of photographs whose time cannot be verified (the article on the WRAL site only says "...sources said the 19 photos, taken between 11:02 p.m. and 12:41 a.m. by a person they would not identify, matched watches in the photographs." why didn't the reporters comment on this?). There's no visual evidence that the victim was impaired in the photos (only the defense's contention that she was) and a difference in opinion between WRAL and the Herald-Sun as to the appearance of bruises on her body:

WRAL: "The photos also show what appear to be bruises on the accuser's knee."
Herald-Observer: "Bruises are clearly visible on the legs and thighs of the alleged victim."

They also mention a photo of the victim lying on the stairs. The defense claims she's drunk and/or passed out. I may also guess that this is how a woman who just endured a brutal sexual assault and strangulation by three men twice her size might look.

The defense is taking advantage of this time to throw out everything they can. There will come a time for the other side to present its evidence.

[BrownOak]

167. So is it your contention...

...that the watches in the photos will not match up to the time stamps on the photos? The reason you have determined it is not credible is because it comes from the defense? Do you hold the same standard up to the individual making the allegations or are her allegations inherently more credible?

[mondo joe]

141. So you have a faith based position?

"Our faith is in him and the case he will present."

Thank goodness cases are to be decided based on evidence - not on faith, and not on the race of the accuser or the accused.

[FredScuttle]

142. Funny thing about words....sometimes, they have more than one meaning!

From Webster's:

Main Entry: faith
Function: noun
Etymology: from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs


While I don't worship at the Cathedral of St. Mike Nifong, I do believe he is a sincere, serious DA and will present the case he stated at the start of this investigation - a prosecution of a vicious gang-rape and strangulation committed against a woman.

[mondo joe]

143. Seems like you have pretty much decided they are guilty - that's

faith.

I don't have much use for faith, personally. I prefer evidence.

[FredScuttle]

144. Hey, somebody raped that woman

and unless there was a travelling band of sex offenders who happened to visit that night, the obvious suspects are a houseful of drunk lacrosse players whose sense of entitlement is borne out by their antisocial behavior (visits from the police, insulting the neighbors, etc.). Now, add the stonewall the players erected at the start to hinder the investigation, and my suspicions are aroused.

I'm not the jury, I'm not the judge...they'll have their day in court. Since I won't be sitting on the jury, I can think whatever I want about them and they scream "guilty" to me.

[mondo joe]

149. Actually, that is not known.

Physicians state her condition is consistent with rape - but that is also consistent with several other possibilities.

And if in fact she was raped, it may or may not have been those students.

Yes indeed, you can have any opinion you care to have - but, as I said, it's a faith based opinion, not one based on evidence.

[BrownOak]

152. Nor may it have happened that day**

[FredScuttle]

156. Actually, that's not what they said

Her injuries were consistent with those they've seen in rape cases. They mentioned no other possibilities. And that's the report they provided to the DA, who had every opportunity to explore those other possibilities.

So, my belief that she was raped is not faith-based, it is supported by the facts. The DA believes she was raped and that's good enough for me.

[mondo joe]

157. "Consistent with rape" does not necessarily mean "was raped".

That's rather the point of the "consistent with".

But as long as the DA's say so is all you need, I trust you believe every accused person is guilty.

That's faith.

[FredScuttle]

158. Now, there's a leap!

Nice strawman....I never said I believe every accused person is guilty. I only stated that, in this case, I believe without reservation that this woman was raped and that the suspects with opportunity and, perhaps motive, are among the partygoers. Seeing as how the vast majority of partygoers played lacrosse, I make the short hop over to say that the rapists were most likely lacrosse players.

[mondo joe]

159. Then why is the DA's belief "good enough" for you?

When people are charged it's because the prosecutor (the DA) believes the accused is guilty.

If the DA's belief is good enough for you, would it not follow that all legallly accused are guilty?

[FredScuttle]

160. But no one's been charged!

We're only at the grand jury stage here. If, as has been reported, the indictments he's asked for are for two of the players, then they'll have their opportunity in court to answer the charge. The burden will be on the DA to prove his case.

The DA believes this woman was raped, based on the evidence his investigation has found. I'm not extrapolating this case to apply to all criminal cases...I just believe that this woman was raped by three men present at the party. The belief I'm supporting is the finding that this woman was brutally raped and strangled.

[mondo joe]

161. Which just goes back to a faith based presumption of guilt.

In this case the DA believes it so that's "good enough".

In another case maybe not.

Looks like a judgment based on faith -- or maybe bias.

Thanks.

[FredScuttle]

166. There you go again

confusing "faith in the DA" with "belief in the guilt of the players".

I think the players are guilty as hell...at least three of them beat, strangled, raped and sodomized a woman (my belief) and the rest stood around and let this happen. Then, they attempted to protect the rapists by obstructing the investigation. I have faith in the DA to present his case to a jury and obtain a conviction.

Tell me...do you root this hard for child molesters? Do you have a faith-based belief in their innocence?

And you're damn right that I'm biased....I'm biased against drunk racist assholes who think it's the height of Saturday night hijinks to drag a woman into a bathroom and subject her to an unspeakable ordeal, then taunt her as she's leaving. Call me crazy.

[mondo joe]

169. Do I root for.....? I haven't rooted for ANYONE in this case.

Not the accuser or the accused.

And the fact that you think I have - based soley on my belief that the evidence rather than bias - should ddecide the case, tells me a lot about where you're coming from.

Thanks for making it so clear.

[FredScuttle]

171. Ah yes, you are the great defender of the forensic process

and yet you willfully ignore the evidence from the victim's evaluation in the emergency room. You'd gladly call me a prosecution groupie, ready to believe any and all cases brought against criminal defendants in this country when all I'm talking about is this specific case and the facts as we know them. Finally, you confuse the point I've made over and over that I'm not deciding this case...I have a definite opinion that a crime has been committed and a strong belief in the guilt of at least three of the partygoers. I'm not saying we should throw out the trial process and frogmarch them to a set of nooses in the town square, now, am I?

The "evidence" you so strongly believe in is what the defense has been puking up for three weeks. None of us has a clue what is in the case the DA presented to the grand jury and what led to the indictments of two of the players.

[mondo joe]

172. I haven't ignored any evidence. There is not enough to render

a sound judgment.

Maybe they are guilty, maybe not. More pertiently, maybe they will be found guilty, maybe not.

As to what you're advocating, it's unclear - if the DA's belief is enough for you, it's hard to know why you'd need anything more, along the lines of a trial.

[FredScuttle]

174. Once again, I'll say it slowly so you can understand.

The. DA's. belief. that. this. woman. was. raped. is. good. enough. for. me.

Now, we can argue about the evidence that proves the guilt or innocence of the accused. But what else are you looking for to convince yourself that she was, in fact, raped?

[mondo joe]

176. What else am I looking for? I'm not looking for anything -- the

prosecutor and defense will make their cases - presumably they will present their most compelling evidence, and presumably that will be enough.

[LisaL]

191. At least three? There were more?

Yea, it would be bad for drunk racist assholes to rape a woman.
But I don't see any evidence even remotely suggesting that is what had happened.
None. Nada. Zilch.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

192. No. You don't know if anyone raped that woman.

[superconnected]

163. actually evidence won't count much

It will be decided on the emotions of the Jury, no matter how much evidence is involved.

The most persuasive lawyer will win.

[mondo joe]

165. We must hope that jurors will be less emotional that some DU posters,

and more honest as well.

[FredScuttle]

168. More honest?

You mean more honest than someone that still wants to deny this woman was raped? Don't make me laugh

[Umbram]

183. Intellectually honest

Intellectually honest enough to see their biases and make sure not to sit as jurors if they are incapable of putting aside their emotions and allowing rationality to prevail.

Intellectually honest enough to wait until all available evidence is before them before deciding anything.

Intellectually honest enough to realize that even after the final judgment, only those that were there actually know what happened.

[bigdarryl]

147. Jesse Jackson

He needs to keep his ass out of this case

[Llewlladdwr]

170. I'm just glad...

to see that the Rev. Jackson still has an eye for the ladies.

[godhatesrepublicans]

173. well that's nice, but...

...it highlights my old complaint about 'celebrity victims." The whole media goes nuts because Natalee Holloway goes missing in Aruba, and no one gives a flip about the 17 year old girl that got knifed to death a few nights ago in my home town, or the last 50 unsolved murders in this town for that matter.

Now if Jesse wants to impress me, he'll start a college program for every other stripper, escort and lap dancer within a one hour drive of Duke University. Now that'd be making a difference in the world.

[FredScuttle]

175. I'm sure Rev. Jackson stays up at night worrying about how to impress you

I'll pass along your suggestion, I'm sure he'll get right on it.

[godhatesrepublicans]

177. Fred, he stays up nights worrying how to impress EVERYONE.

He's a politician, remember?

Now on the other hand, I'm a preacher. I stay up nights worrying how to make the world better so people can get have the security they need to be able to spend time to get their lives and souls in order.

And that's the difference Fred. Any other flames you care to share? I have another cheek just ready to turn.

[FredScuttle]

178. Good on you, GHR

and apologies for the snark. Rev. Jackson has done his share of good as well, just in front of the lights and the cameras whenever possible.

BTW, love your site.

[TankLV]

179. Well, it looks like her plan worked. Lie and smear innocent boys to see

if they would pay hush money to "keep it out of court", when that fails, Jackson comes to her "rescue".

Cynthis McKinney is a hero - shild Jackson is an embarassment to the Democratic Party.

I feel an Al Sharpton moment comming on.

[FredScuttle]

181. Wow....any other black people you care to smear?

C'mon...I'm sure there's a way to get a dig in at that uppity Whoopi Goldberg. And certainly this conspiracy against those "innocent" boys is the work of the black-Communist alliance that was started by Martin Luther King. :sarcasm:

I gotta get a "plan" like hers...get brutally assaulted at a party, get racial taunts as I'm escaping, be subjected to a rape examination at the hospital and have my life torn apart by the world when the case is made public - all for the king's ransom of a college education. What a dope I am...I just went for the Stafford loans! :sarcasm::sarcasm:

[TankLV]

186. Wow, you don't know me or my friends or my history.

But you sure are POSITIVE about your prejudice.

Nice.

I calls em as I sees em.

No difference what color their skin is.

I know plenty of idiotic lacross players. I know plenty of scummy women, too. That's just life. Just like I know plenty of good people of every persuasion.

But you are amazing as judge, jury and executioner.

Good grief.

Get a grip.

Know one knows what happened, but the evidence I've seen so far leads me to believe one way - the players are not "automiticaly certainly guilty" and the woman is not "automatically to be believed".

Good night.

And "good luck" with your lynching! :sarcasm:

[FredScuttle]

187. Wait a minute...

are some of your best friends black?

I'm kidding...I should make no prejudgements about you, your friends or your history.

I'm curious about the "scummy" women you've known though...high incidence of false rape reports in that lot?

[TankLV]

188. Nope - nice assumptions on your part AGAIN.

You really have no clue as to what my friends or FAMILY is comprised of. Your prejudiced self would be very surprised.

If these guys are guilty, I hope they have hell to pay.

Likewise, if that woman is guilty of lying, I also she has hell to pay also - but Jackson has already stated that no matter IF SHE IS GUILTY, she will make out like a bandit. That stinks too.

This is a bad case all around.

I'll wait till this is resolved, I suggest you do the same.

Good night.

Peace.

[FredScuttle]

189. Haha...way to put words in Jesse's mouth

Here's what the article actually said:

"He said he is waiting until the woman is "strong enough" to meet with him for prayer, and so he can formally offer her a scholarship. He said the offer stands, regardless of the outcome of the case."

Regardless of the outcome of the case....a far cry from "if she's guilty" (and, of what, precisely? Abusing their genitals with her vagina and anus?)

Of course, you're waiting for the case to be resolved before you call her a no-good lying ho, right?

[TankLV]

190. That's exactly right - EVEN IF SHE'S GUILTY.

Or don't you understand what "regardless of the outcome of the case" means?

That is why I find his actions most despicable - HE'S WILLING TO GIVE HER THE MONEY EVEN IF SHE'S GUILTY! That's what "regardless..." means!

As far as I'm concerned, by her very job description, A STRIPPER AND ESCORT - she isn't exactly a nun, is a lot closer to the "ho" (your words, not mine).

If these players are guilty BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, then I will gladly join in a chorus of those condemning them.

But until then, I'm afraid the evidence points the OTHER WAY - that's the way I and many others see it. It may not be proven correct, it may be proven correct. Only time will tell.

Sorry to burst your prejudiced bubble.

Just curious, I'm sure "many of your friends are white" too!

[FredScuttle]

197. ARRRRGH! LOOK AT ME....I TYPE IN CAPS!

I BEAT MY CHEST....TREMBLE BEFORE ME!

Sorry, got sidetracked for a second. To your point...you do realize, don't you, that the victim is not the one on trial here, right? The only possible outcomes of the case before us is that the players would be a)found guilty or b)acquitted (or there may be a hung jury or a mistrial). To put it in a style you'd understand:

THERE'S NO GODDAMN WAY SHE CAN BE FOUND "GUILTY" OF ANYTHING.


Now, I think the point you're trying to make is that Rev. Jackson has pledged to fund this woman's education even if the DA fails to obtain convictions against the defendants. In that event, that would not mean that the woman is lying...it would simply mean that the DA failed to present a compelling enough case to overcome the reasonable doubt of the jury. It's happened before.

In the meantime, I'll let you enjoy calling me "prejudiced" while you type posts castigating a rape victim for "lying and smearing" her attackers.

As for my friends...no fair - I asked you about your "scummy" women friends first!

[Heidi]

199. Locking.

This thread has become a flamefest. Please review the DU Rules regarding civil discourse: http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html