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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:39 AM
Original message
Cardinal backs limited condom use (and legal abortion)
Edited on Fri Apr-21-06 12:35 PM by muriel_volestrangler
One of the Roman Catholic Church's most distinguished cardinals has publicly backed the use of condoms among married couples to prevent Aids transmission.

Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said that in couples where one had HIV/Aids, which could pass to the partner, the use of condoms was "a lesser evil".

The Vatican says condoms should never be used, even to stop Aids spreading from one married partner to another.
...
According to insistent reports, Cardinal Martini was a close runner-up in last year's papal election.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4929962.stm


Well, it's a start - shame it comes from a runner-up rather than the winner, though.

On edit: He also said legalised abortion is better than having it illegal:

The 79-year-old Jesuit cardinal also said the legalisation of abortion was a "positive" development in the sense that it had "contributed to reducing and eliminating illegal abortions".

"It is difficult for a modern state not to intervene, at least to prevent a brutal, arbitrary situation from developing," he said.

"That doesn't mean a 'licence to kill'," he stressed, saying he hoped governments would use "all means at their disposal" to reduce the number of abortions.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/114008print.asp
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. A good start would be people coming to ther senses...
and realising religion is a plague on mankind.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. .
"The Vatican says condoms should never be used, even to stop Aids spreading from one married partner to another. "

So the Vatican is now a public health threat, in and of itself.

Nice.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. no kidding
can't this outdated and stupid and evil religion just crawl off and die already.

condoms "a lesser evil" than killing your spouse. indeed.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Catholic Church needs to understand something...
If God really wanted that sperm to get through, he'd make a hole in the rubber for it to do so.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The Priests don't have to use Condoms
Because the little boys can't get pregnant
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ouch. nt
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DrBloodmoney Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Uh oh... the kool-aid's getting a little dilute n/t
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. Why anyone with an ounce of intelligence would listen to...
the Vatican on this issue is beyond me. Why would people risk their own lives over such nonsense coming from the Vatican.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. Which half? left of right half?
:eyes:

Glad to see the experts on sex chiming in again.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. Welcome to the 21st century!
This is a surprise.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. South African bishop has been calling for condom use for years
His name is Kevin Dowling, and he's met the Church head-on about this issue.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/hero2005/dowling.html

Just one of many, many articles about this man.

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toopers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. The US catholics should break from the Roman Catholic Church
because the Vatican just does not get it!
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. I don't fucking believe this....
"The Vatican says condoms should never be used, even to stop Aids spreading from one married partner to another."

My god, they are evil fucks. :mad:

How disgusting do you have to be to punish an inncoent person by forcing them to subject themselves to a possible death sentance???

Fuck the Vatican, just fuck'em. Every single one of those bastards who call for shit like this needs to burn in hell. :mad:
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kiraboo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. There is no hell. That's another ridiculous invention meant
to scare us into doing the Church's bidding.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. But I'd like to see one built to hold these 'spiritual leaders'
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. lol -- this guy sounds marginally sane compared to benedict.
i wish they'd get the chastity belts off their minds.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ah, a wiley Jesuit
The Church has only lasted for all these centuries because it has been able to change. With glacial slowness, perhaps.

It's quite interesting that Martini may have been a close runner-up for Pope. Benedict is on up in years.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. As to Abortion Father Daniel Berrigan said this in the 1960s.
Edited on Fri Apr-21-06 03:04 PM by happyslug
i.e. it was BETTER for the state to legalese ALL Abortions than to put itself in a position of deciding who can and can not have an Abortion. By legalizing Abortion the State would get out of the abortion debate completely (But a complete legalization of abortion did NOT occur even in Roe vs Wade):

For more on what Roe v Wade did and did not do see:
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0306/articles/glendon.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1211-06.htm
http://tcrnews2.com/chs8_9.pdf
http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_08_29/article.html
http://www.companysj.com/v182/longview.htm
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Why only limited condom use? And - how bout birth control too.
Edited on Fri Apr-21-06 02:17 PM by superconnected
It's nice they're comming around and only missing this by 30-40 years.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. More on Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. Just watch. The new pope's gonna swiftboat him
Mayday, mayday! Rogue Cardinal! Stop him at all costs!
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. He'll be reassigned as parish priest in Kotzebue, Alaska or
the Malvinas.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I hear Ulan Bator in Mongolia is nice this time of year....
Or Pittsburgh.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. Fr. Berrigan had the right idea. The state should have nothing to do with
abortion AT ALL. It's like free speech, and freedom of religion. The state should exit the discussion. This is solely a matter of a woman's bodily integrity--a matter that only she and her doctor can judge. If she gives up that judgment to a church and its male prelates, that is her business. But it is NOT the state's. Politicians like Bush making it the business of the state is an unconstitutional mixing of religion and government.

As for the Catholic Church, a) if they want to slug it out in the realm of public opinion and religious teaching, fine--let them try to convince people; and b) they only came very late to the notion of the "infusion" of the soul at conception, in the 19th century when all sorts of other anti-female and fascist doctrines were being concocted--there are NO theological OR scientific bases for this belief; it is based on FEAR of women and our sexual and reproductive power, hatred of the Goddess, a desire to CONTROL women, and a need for breeders of future Catholics, quite the same as the Fascists' need for breeders of cannon fodder.

The Catholic Church's primitive notions about condoms, birth control, abortion, marriage and divorce are all of a piece with their ban on women priests. It's all a power game. It has NOTHING--zilch, zero--to do with the teachings of Jesus. And to enforce these notions as DOCTRINE, claiming them as the direct will of God to the Pope, with the fires of hell as the punishment for disobedience, is insanely arrogant and out of line. There is nothing Christian about it. It is just power madness.

Personally, I have nothing but contempt for those who condemn abortion, and support war and capital punishment, which often combines with approval of greed and selfishness that inflict great harm on others, especially the poor. This is not a Catholic failing, particularly. The Church opposes capital punishment, and for the most part, opposes war. (They have their "just war" exception.) And they advocate for the poor, but then align themselves with fascist oligarichies. But the Bushites and their 'christian' followers are out and out, full scale hypocrites. The Church is corrupt. The Bushites are nuts. Their position is irrational, and strongly smells of cynicism on the part of the rich, and witch-burning tendencies on the part of the poor.

I can see having a reasonable discussion on whether or not the freedom and equality of women should be based as much as they are on solutions devised mostly by male scientists: taking a drug company drug to prevent conception; solving an unwanted pregnancy by surgically removing the fetus. I've sometimes wondered about this--should we not, instead, provide support to pregnant women and to children, as the duty of society--and make the need for pregnancy prevention and abortion rarer? Shouldn't women's procreative power be treated more as a precious gift, than as an inconvenience to industrialized, corporatized society? And if we really believe in family and community, how can we foster them--in this fragmented, automobile-driven, corporate-dominated life that many of us lead?

These are important and interesting questions--but dictating to people out of motives of powermongering and fear will never do. If we want to revere life, and promote the view that life is sacred, we need to start with RESPECT for the givers of life, and the carriers of life: women.

And we most certainly must bring an end to war--the greatest destroyer of human life ever devised.

Some day humans may be quite other than what we are now: maybe people will be created in sophisticated "test tubes" with many choices, and the procreative line between men and women will disappear. I think it's rather likely, actually--and I don't necessarily think it's an appalling idea. But as long as the best place for creating life is within a woman's body, and this huge difference exists between men and women, we need to figure out what equality means in this, our present context and present conditions. The Church and the Bushites stand against women's equality, and want to destroy it--each for their own ill motives. Secular society needs to reassert itself, and address these issues head on, not just narrowly, over abortion, but in a much larger context of society's responsibility toward pregnant women and children, and toward real community.

And by secular society, I mean something equivalent to AMERICAN society, because the principle of SECULAR society is written into our Constitution and is not only the LAW OF THE LAND, it is the BEST SOLUTION human beings have ever come up with to prevent the kinds of religious wars, and inquisitions, and witch-burnings, and oppression that wracked Europe for a thousand years, and that still bedevil humanity--and women most of all--in many parts of the world.

So let's please have a SECULAR discussion of these important matters. It's long overdue.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Please, PLEASE tell me nobody still seriously listens to the Vatican
on anything related to sexuality.

"The Vatican says condoms should never be used, even to stop Aids spreading from one married partner to another."
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-21-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Cardinal Martini needs to hire a food taster PDQ, and stay out of
small planes..................

And get ahold of some Nomex undies, for when they put him to the stake for heresy.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. My niece is a hemophilac shee needs bc...
to regulate her blood flow. If she dies because some of these sick freaks want to outlaw bc heaven help them if they cross my path.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
28. What's this? A small glimmer of sense and humanity? nt
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
29. Argument with Priest over concept of souls
I was a teenager at Retreat in Catholic School. I said to him if God puts souls in at conception, does he then take them out when a woman miscarries? How about if it is only after a few days gestation? For miscarriage, "He" is causing it. Even for an abortion, if God is all knowing, he will know that will happen too. Put souls in at conception, then take out before birth? Embryos and fetuses, who never had any consciousness, are "running around" in heaven?

The Priest got very mad at me. He accused me of being arrogant. I just thought it was all very illogical, even as a teenager.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-22-06 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hopefully this will help some people understand that
the Church is not all pedophile priests or demagogic pricks. This sounds like a good man - I wish all of the good priests and officials would get news space.
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