Dillard's says 'ethnic' hair harder to clean (discrimination suit)

[deadparrot]

Almost three years after Vaughan Thomas says she paid an inflated price at a Montgomery, Ala., hair salon simply for being black, lawyers for Dillard's beauty salons went to court Tuesday to defend the department store from allegations of what Thomas and others call "race-based pricing."

Thomas is one of eight black women suing the department store for racial discrimination after she allegedly was told that Dillard's beauty salons charge black customers more than whites because of the "kinky" nature of "ethnic" hair.

"Hair is hair regardless of what color you are, and the prices should be the same for everybody," Thomas told Courttv.com. "This is a practice that's still being done in the 21st century, and it should be stopped."

While lawyers for Dillard's deny that the retailer practices "race-based pricing," they claim that scientific evidence supports the theory that "ethnic" hair requires more effort to treat — and therefore should be subject to higher pricing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ct/20060425/cr_ct/dillardssaysethnichairhardertocleaninresponsetodiscriminationsuit

[Nicole]

1. I have to pay extra

for having long hair, which also takes longer to treat. Maybe I can sue also?

edit to add:
I'm not referring to just Dilliard's. Every salon I've ever been to charges more for long hair.

[Jim Sagle]

2. Why don't I get a baldness discount?

[Nicole]

4. I think you should

Maybe they can apply some of my overpay as refund to you? :rofl:

[pnwmom]

9. I've never been to a salon that charges more for longer hair. Or thicker

hair. Or a more complicated hairdo. They tell you the price for a "cut and style" on the phone, and never ask how long your hair is. How would they know until you get there?

[Nicole]

11. Well I have

I've never called & got a price over the phone so I can't comment on that, I've never experienced it.

I pay extra when I get highlights & I can understand the reason. Waist length hair takes longer to highlight than shorter hair plus it takes a lot more products to do hair that long.
I've watched people come in after & leave before me. If my stylists didn't get paid extra for doing my hair why would they want to? They can double their money doing a couple of average length hair customers in that same time frame.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. I've gotten charged extra for perming and coloring long hair,

because when my hair was really long, the stylist had to use two bottles of perm solution or dye.

But I was never charged extra for a cut and blow-dry.

[recoveringrepublican]

22. When my hair is longer I get charged more for styling. nt

[LostinVA]

31. Mine, too

[susanna]

66. I have long hair - it costs more.

They have never asked me over the phone how long it is; when I show up, they just adjust the pricing based on the length. I have been on both sides, having had short hair and long hair during one specific year...it was much cheaper for the short cut/color/style.

[pnwmom]

76. Interesting. I wonder if this could be regional? My daughter has had

lots of different lengths and styles of hair and just gets charged whatever the rate is.

[susanna]

78. I wanna live where you do!

Seriously, I did not realize it was an issue until I grew my hair long. It grows like a weed, so within six months I went from "short" to "long" and my stylist mentioned that she would have to begin to charge more based on the salon guidelines. I asked a few friends who went to that salon if that was normal, and they told me, "oh, yeah - the longer the more expensive." I did not mind, I like my stylist, but that was weird to me. I had short hair all my life so I remember the "huh" shock I experienced...strange, huh?

[pnwmom]

79. Well, I have to admit that the place I go to is pretty expensive, so maybe

we're all paying extra!

Actually, they have different haircutters at different prices. The disadvantage is that as you get more addicted to your stylist, her price rises with experience.

[Raine]

69. Well I always tell them when I make the appointment

that my hair comes to my hips (I feel it would be unfair not to let them know ahead of time cause it does take longer) and then they tell me is going to cost me more.

[lynne]

73. I once had the price jacked up TWO TIMES -

- while I was in the chair! I called and asked the price for "cut and blow-dry". They didn't ask the length of my hair - it was at my waist and very thick. I wanted it cut and styled to my shoulders.

It took them three times as long to cut and style it as normal so I paid more. I felt it reasonable as I know it took a long time and she really did a good job.

My hair is short now but still takes extra time to style as they usually have to thin it out and it takes FOREVER to blow-dry.

[SoCalDem]

84. MOST salons here charge extra for long hair..My hair WAS long

and I wanted it cut short.. They told me I would have to pay the long hair price..I asked what would happen if I went to my car, and cut it off at my shoulders, and THEN came in for a short cut.. answer: I would pay the short hair price :eyes: I cut it myslef and never went back :) better haircut and it was free :)

My black friends are VERY picky about who does their hair, and they would NEVER go to a department store salon.. I guess my friends are snobby :)

[Lilith Velkor]

85. They asked me when I wanted coloring

They didn't when I asked about a haircut.

I only get it bleached if it's short, because they have to do it twice to get it from black to orange to blonde.

[LibertyLover]

90. So do I

I've got waist length hair and occassionally have it permed. The salon charges more for my long hair. In fact they have a sliding scale which is posted, based on short, medium length (defined as shoulder length) and long length. As another poster noted, it takes longer to do long hair and more product, so of course the salon charges more. But before I can agree with Dillards salon charging more to do "ethnic" hair, I'd want a lot more proof that it does indeed require more effort, time and product on the part of the hairdresser to style.

[Kixel]

91. Length of hair is one thing

Coarseness is different. I have a friend with really thin, flyaway hair. She doesn't get a discount. My hair is probably twice as thick as hers. Unless they are using different product to treat it, it should be the same price.

Hair length is different, too. Longer hair costs more for most services. More ground to cover.

[superconnected]

94. Try getting a perm with long hair.

They always ask me how long my hair is when I schedule perms and I always pay more.

Actually, I pay a lot more.

[geniph]

96. You have to be kidding me

Up until last week, I'd had hair down to my hips for 30 years. I never, ever got any kind of hairstyling without being charged a significant surcharge for longer hair. And rightly so - a perm, color, shampoo, conditioning treatment - all of those take considerably more product and considerably more time with long hair.

(Last week, I cut my hair really really short for the first time in 35 years. It's kind of fun, especially people's reactions!)

[redqueen]

101. Every salon I've ever been to does. They post it on a sign. n/t

[Raine]

67. Same here

my hair comes down to my hips and they charge twice as much to put it in an updo as someone who has shoulder length hair. I'm not complaining though cause I understand it takes lot's more time etc.

[JVS]

92. When I was in Germany my hair was so long that a barber said that..

I'd have to pay the price for a women's haircut. For some reason haircuts are expensive over there. My hair had been long but the heat was too much. I decided I'd rather save money than look good, so I took the kitchen scissors to my head and looked like a freak for a week or so

[JI7]

3. shouldn't prices be about treatment requested rather than difficulty ?

[AnneD]

86. No...

because stylists generally 'rent' the chair or booth from the owner and are almost on commission only. The longer it takes for them to do your hair, the less number of clients they can see in a day. It does cut into their bottom line ;). I am usually a quick job, but when I have something extra done, I not only pay a bit more, but I tip more too. It's just fair.

[hedgehog]

5. Hmmm---

One of my daughters has straight hair, the other has curls like something out of a pre-Raphelite painting. Would they charge my second daughter more? What about my sister? In high school her hair was almost kinky although it has settled down in recent years (or else she is straightening it a little bit. We're white, if that matters.
(My hair is waist length and my daughter's hair is short. Would they charge me more because it takes longer to dry?)

[Placebo]

6. I guess if it costs the business owner more money...

or more time, then they get to set the pricing, and they can charge more.

But then you've got to think, these African-American women have a choice as to where they get their hair did, but they did not have a choice to be born black or not, so penalizing someone monetarily for an inherent and vital characteristic about their very being, something they cannot change, may be financially appealing, but is wholly and entirely wrong on philosophical and moral grounds.

[cantstandbush]

7. Think I would find anothe beauty shop. Give my money black beauticians.

[justice1]

8. This one is a tough one.

Women with short hair, get charged more than men. Long hair is charged more than short.

Even in the dry-cleaning business, a woman is charged more than a man for a shirt.

[edwin]

10. I don't pay anything.

I shave my own head. Am surprised so many people don't know yet. Bald is the new black. :D

[NorthernSpy]

54. me neither!

I cut my own hair. I don't charge me.

More people should try the do-it-yourself option. You can save a lot of money that way.

[AnneD]

100. I get my hair done at the saloon....

cause I can't cut my own, but hubby let's me cut his to save $$$$. He tips pretty well too;)

[targetpractice]

12. It all comes out in the wash...

Forgive the pun.

Some treatments are easy, and some are hard. Charge a middle-of-the-road price that makes a profit at the end of the day.

[dysfunctional press]

13. that might not work-

the customer on the lesser end of the scale would see their prices rise- possibly to the extent that they go elsewhere, and the shop loses business for not pricing competetively.

i don't know if it's as prevalent anymore, due to all the suv's and mini-vans of all shapes and sizes- but it used to be that a lot of car washes would charge more for a van or pick-up truck than a car- even the automatic car washes.

[progdonkey]

14. they have a reasonable explanation...

If I were a physical trainer and I had a client who was 150 pounds overweight and another that was 300 pounds overweight, would it be discrimination against obese people to charge the latter double what I charge the former? Should I be forced to charge a flat fee of say $3000 to bring anyone into an optimum level of fitness, regardless of difficulty or time spent? After the second person loses 150 pounds, am I required to train help him lose the last 150 for free because I'd otherwise be charging him more in total than the first?

The price should be (and rightfully is, in this case) based on the time spent, level of difficulty, and amount and cost of product to be used. If a black lady with kinky hair hates that because it means she's always going to be paying more than a white (or black, for that matter) lady with straight hair, I feel sorry for her that she's stuck paying more, but it's not discrimination.

[DRoseDARs]

16. That was my thinking too but I'd like to see hard evidence showing as much

...before agreeing.

[qanda]

21. There is absolutely nothing reasonable about that explanation

Unless you think all black women have kinky hair. They see a black woman and immediately charge her more-- that is not reasonable, it is ignorant and racist.

[Ecumenist]

28. Thank you, Quanda..

Not all black women have kinky har and in fact, many of us have hair that is just as straight as caucasian women. As a matter of fact, I've seen white women with wiry, kinky hair and I mean kinky, what we call as african american, "nappy". I wonder if they charge more for a white woman with that kind of hair? Or it is due to the combination of kinky hair AND high melanin levels?:think:

[LostinVA]

33. My sister is white, and has very kinky, curly, wiry hair

Very much like Jennifer Beals' hair.

[Ecumenist]

41. Ummm, Jennifer Beal does not have Kinky hair

Kinky is more like the hair Diana Ross wears... There is a classification system that describes hAfricn american hair from almost peppercorn to straight as an arrow.

[LostinVA]

46. Jennifer Beals has very kinky hair

As does my sister.

Kinky means "tightly twisted or curled." Like my sister. Like Jennifer Beals.

on edit: My sister's hair -- and Jennifer Beals' hair -- can look just like Diana Ross' hair. It can also be straightened with a flat iron, but that's not what her hair looks like in reality.

Jennifer Beals' father is African-American, so I guess Dillard's would only charge her half as much.

[Ecumenist]

49. Jennifer Beals hair is what is would be classified as

about a 3a to 3b on the scale used to type our hair. Perhaps your sister has kinkier hair but years ago I met Jennifer and she does not have what you're calling kinky hair. I know first hand..

[Ecumenist]

50. I have what is honestly kinky hair....

or I should say Kinkier hair.. By the ay, Diana bought her hair but that's neither here nor there. My hair is waist length. My greatgrandmother had hair knee length UNSTRAIGHTENED and she had kinky hair. Kinky hair has a certain tightness of curl and coil as well as more of a sheen than a shine in it's natural unstraightened state.

[JNelson6563]

39. Actually yes

My sister-in-law, who is as white as can be, as the curliest hair I've ever seen. It's also very thick and very long (and red). She has to pay serious money to get a haircut because it takes a really long time and is a bear to do.

Julie

[fasttense]

45. My hair can be "kinky" and I'm white

I have very thick, very curly short hair. Would they charge me more because how thick and curly it is? I can tell you I have never been charged more but beauticians are always surprised at how long it takes to treat my hair. The thickness of it takes more time to cut and the rough texture takes more time to highlight. Sounds to me like these beauticians were trying to discourage blacks from coming in.

[Ecumenist]

52. Agreed, fasttense...

:hi:

[Ecumenist]

56. Qanda...

:hi:

[Chovexani]

58. Thank you.

And bullshit like this is why I patronize salons that cater to black/Latina women. This is patently racist and anyone who can't see that needs to get a clue.

I'm moving to Phoenix in a few days and wondering where I will get my naps taken care of, lol.

[progdonkey]

99. "they see a black woman and immediately charge her more"

Really? Where do you see that in the article, outside of the words of the plaintiff? That is simply what the plaintiff is claiming, whereas Dillard's is saying it's not based on race but type of hair, which--according to them--is harder to treat when it's "kinky." More blacks have "kinky" hair than whites, so more blacks would be paying a surchage than whites. Whether their claim is true or not should be left for the judge to decide, but I saw nothing in that article that wasn't from the plaintiff's POV that said without a doubt "if you're black, you will be charged more, even if your hair isn't kinky." You seem to be assuming way too much and jumping to a conclusion that isn't supported at all by the facts as related in the article.

The impression from the article is that the plaintiff has "kinky" hair, went to the salon, had her hair done, and was charged more. When she asked why, she was told it was because her hair is "kinky" and therefore more time-consuming to treat. Without disputing whether her hair was in fact harder to treat, she jumps to the conclusion that they're discriminating against her because she's black. In fact, it is she who is assuming that all black women have kinky hair by screaming discrimination on account of being black, as though having kinky hair and being black were one and the same. If someone says "I'm charging you more because you're black," then it's of course absolutely reasonable to conclude you're the victim of racism, but if someone says, "Your hair was harder to treat," and you turn that into racism without disputing the claim, you're just crazy and lose all credibility for when you actually are the victim of racism.

In the article, there's no indication that the plaintiff doesn't have "kinky" hair, so there's nothing to say that it was simply because she was black. If she has completely straight hair that isn't at all "kinky" and didn't actually cost the salon more in time, effort, and product, and she was still charged more, then she'd have a case, but there's no indication of that from the article.

I'm not a professional hair-dresser, so I don't know if in fact "kinky" hair is harder or more costly to the salon to treat, but just assuming it is, this woman has no reason to scream racism. If putting her hair into a certain style costs more to the salon, she should pay more. Simple as that. If the reason it costs more happens to be a trait that is largely exclusive (but hardly intrinsic) to one race, that alone doesn't make it racist.

Should men who have very hairy chests be allowed to demand a discount on shaving cream because they use up more of it to completely shave their chests than men who have less chest hair to begin with? No, of course not. A product costs a certain amount, and time and labor cost a certain amount. The more product is used, the higher the cost; the longer it takes, the higher the cost.

There's a higher incidence of sickle cell anemia in the black population than in the white population. Is a doctor by defintion racist because his black patient's medical bills are higher due to treatment for sickle cell? If the black patient screamed "discrimination!" because his medical bills are higher due to the treatment of a condition that is more prevalent naturally in the black population, does he have a case?

Or how about this: peanut allergies are apparently all but unknown in China and other parts of East Asia. If a store in China prepares food with peanuts, are the owners absolutely being discriminatory against non-Chinese because many more non-Chinese than Chinese would be unable to eat there?

There's still plenty of racism in this country, but screaming discrimination every time something doesn't totally go your way only makes it that much harder to be taken seriously when you actually are the victim of bigotry.

[qanda]

102. I'm not sure where you got your information, but....

I did a quick search and found this:

The complaint, which has been filed by Attorneys Patrick Cooper and Percy Badham from the Alabama Law Firm of Maynard, Cooper and Gale, PC, states that Dillards intentionally discriminated against the plaintiff and class members by charging them higher prices for the same salon service as those charged to similarly situated Caucasian customers and by specifically instructing their employees and agents to charge higher prices for the same salon services based solely on whether the customer was African American or Caucasian. By charging higher prices to African-Americans for the same salon services offered to Caucasian customers, Dillards violated the rights of plaintiff and class members to make and enforce contracts for products and services on the same terms as Caucasian customers, the complaint reads.

BTW, I don't need you to lecture me about black hair. I'm black and I know for a fact that most black women have relaxed hair which makes their hair straight, not curly or kinky. So before you tell me not to make assumptions, you should take your own advice.

[sweetheart]

27. Disabled people cost more, its not discrimination to let them die`

As if a wheelchair'ed person is left in the desert long enough,
they will die without water. Clearly this is proof that darwin
meant all disabled persons to be cleansed in the new republican
future where everything is economic.

Don't wash your car unless somebody pays you to. Don't say
thankyou unless somebody pays you to. Don't vote unless somebody
pays you to.... we are a plutocracy at the basest most reduced ,
totally unimpressive and indefensible.

If we fix the price, then we discount the labour.
If we fix the labour, then we discount the reality of life.
If we fix the time, then we discount variation in quality.
If we fix the market, then we discount individual freedom and choice.

The best solution is to do nothing, and if some asswipe
charges too much for a haircut, don't get a cut.

[ConcernedCanuk]

15. I've been charged extra for having long hair when I get a dye job

.
.
.

and I'm a white male in Canada -

I do think it's a bit of a rip

but not a racist thing

so settle down already

don't push this "race" thing too far

or people will stop listening

Just My canuk Thoughts

[Ecumenist]

34. That makes sense because they're using

more product... not based on the fact that that you, the client, by virtue of being part of a minority group is somehow more difficult and that's wrong. You do't know what you're talking about Canuck.... NOT ALL BLACK WOMEN HAVE KINKY HAIR. We are A VERY MIXED POPULATION and in fact, can have 2 or more grades of hair on the same head.

[ConcernedCanuk]

65. I know that many black people don't have kinky hair

.
.
.

din't mean to suggest that they did

and I don't treat people by race, religion or political persuasions.

and as you indicated - I admit I am in a minority, especially at my young age of 55 having hair that is about 6 - 8 inches below my shoulders

A wee story from decades ago - approximately 1972

As I was attending college/training for my apprenticeship to become a Motor Vehicle Mechanic - I befriended (or he befriended me) - Gary, a black guy - don't remember his last name.

We ate lunch together, and had many discussions about our trade as we shared similar values.

One day, I was cornered by about six white guys ( I am white) who chastised me for hanging around with that N*****. I asked them not to refer to Gary like that and asked them exactly what their beef was - and one of the "brainier" white guys responded with "well - them N** are all assholes ya know?

I responded with - "well, ya know - I'm 21 years old, and all the assholes I have met were all WHITE"

They never bothered me or Gary again.

And in all the years since then, I have never had a problem with people of any ethnicity -

well

except WHITE people

still alot of white assholes around . .

[Ecumenist]

80. I can imagine what you've seen and experienced in your lifetime

and I didn't mean to denigrate you in any way whatsoever and if I came across, please forgive me. I can sometimes be quite blunt. As I was telling someone on another thread, it's no longer legal to come right out and say things like, "we don't want your kind in this salon", so they come up with something else they think is more palatable. The thing that got me is when these people were told that our hair is "harder to clean". I can't tell you how many times I have been asked byt people, with a straight face, mind you, "do you use gasoline to clean your hair?" or"do you dry your hair in a hot oven?", or "do you use grease on your hair?", so help me God. The second I read that sorry line about how hard it was to clean our hair, I immediately knew that it was an excuse justify their reticence of allowing black people to have their hair styled there. The mot ironic thing is when a salon offers black hair care services, they make ALOT MORE MONEY because we tend to go to salons alot more often that Other groups of people.

[Chovexani]

60. Are you for real? (n/t)

[ConcernedCanuk]

64. yes

.
.
.

ya think I made this up because I had nothing better to do?

sheesh!

[Jim Sagle]

75. I've already stopped listening. Don't hurry back.

[ConcernedCanuk]

89. gotcha

.
.
.

:thumbsup:

[Jim Sagle]

103. I stopped listening to YOU. When black Americans voice their concerns,

you BET I listen.

[Hekate]

17. Even at the local Beauty College prices vary by treatment & difficulty

Fair's fair. A procedure on long hair takes longer and uses more product -- and not only is time money, but the beautician pays for her own supplies, and as far as I know also pays to use the space. When my daughter was a teen she tried getting a perm in her waist-length blond hair, and it cost an enormous sum. Same thing when she got some fancy braids at a beauty shop catering to mostly black women, while staying in Los Angeles. It wasn't racism, it was time and effort.

And different kinds of hair require different skill-sets. I have very fine, very curly hair. The higher the humidity, the curlier (or frizzier, take your pick) my hair gets. I lived in Hawaii for a couple of decades and used to dread going to the beauty parlor, because the average beautician was accustomed to working with much heavier (coarser) hair that was very straight. If you don't cut curls right, they stick out unbecomingly. They weren't trying to do a bad job, they just didn't have sufficient experience with my kind of hair because there just were not enough heads like mine. I read an article in the local newspaper once wherein African-American women complained that they couldn't get a decent haircut in Hawaii for love or money, and I believed it. That was 25 years ago -- perhaps things have improved, perhaps not.

Even in Calif, I had to go through quite a few people before finding the right one, who's had my total loyalty for 20 years.

Unless Dillard's is the only beauty parlor in town, if I were those African-American ladies I would take my business elsewhere because it sure sounds like Dillard's doesn't have anyone on staff who knows how to care for their hair. They need experienced staff who understand their special needs in care and styling. If they are that set on patronizing Dillard's, maybe they should be insisting the store hire someone competent to care for African-American-type hair, rather than trusting themselves to untrained people with scissors in their hands.

Hekate

[Ecumenist]

38. I can understand charging more if more product is used

but simply charging more because of who you are is something else altogether different.
Funnily enough, African american KNOW HOW TO TAKE CARE OF CAUCASIAN hair AND any other that may walk into the shop because we are a VERY MIXED, (ETHNICALLY) group of people. I speak for myself,
Maternal greatgrands- Irish, Arab,Northern, eastern and West african, Mikosukee Indian, French, Andalusian, English, Scottish, Blackfoot, Creek and Choctaw. (Maternal Great-great grand fathers-one was pilipino and one greatgreatgreatgrandfather was Chinese).. and these were marriages I also have on that side Bavarian German an dPolish...Researched and confirmed.
Paternal family is Osage Seminole, Cherokee, West african, (probably from the Gambia) AND Niloctic, Irish, English and Gullah.
My siblings and cousins run from very dark skin through a literal peaches and cream, as in English complexion, VERY kinky hair through straight and silky fine, eye colour runs from literally black, as in my cousin Buffy's eyes through almost silvery blue,gray and green. I have one cousin who has one silvery blue eye and one silvery green.. by the way, he's my first cousin. Hair colour runs from blue black, through browns to Titian to gingery red to my grandma's natural red head, (her father was Irish with VERY blond, Flaxen hair, I believe it's called and eyes the colour of a robin's egg), to my cousin's blond and her mother's strawberry blond with a sister who had platinum blond. My brother was born with blond hair, as in the blond you see the Aboringinal children with blooms in his cheeks and eyes the colour of liptons tea. As he got older, his hair and eyes darkened.
I have 2nd cousins who are PURE FIRST NATIONS,(their parents were my mom's 1st cousins) and growing up in oklahoma, I remember hearing my mother talk about going to family reunions where there were fancy dance competitions.
I say all this to let you know that what Dillards is basing their price points on makes absolutely no sense. We are less like one another, (African Americans), than you are like other's in your particular group. Even Africans who live here will be the first to tellyou tht although we are of african descent, (often not as much as we may first appear to be when mitochondrial DNA is traced), we are NOT african and in fact, can alsmot immediately be picked out of a crowd made of Africans and African americans.

[Ignacio Upton]

18. This is a load of bullshit

I have a friend (who is Indian-American, BTW) who cuts friends hair for free. Several of his friends of BOTH white and black, and he has no trouble cutting either of their hair. I actually read an article similar to this a while ago, and I asked him if the type of hair matters, and from his experience he said it doesn't make a difference. If my friend who's never gone to barber college and occasionally gives free hair-cuts to friends can cut a black person's hair, then why can't these people?

[wickerwoman]

23. It does matter, trust me...

I live in China- land of straight, thin, black hair. In two years, I have never had a decent haircut. I have wavy, thick, brown hair. First, they use the wrong shampoo and no conditioner so my hair gets frazzled and dried out and crinkly. Then they cut five million layers to give more volume (except that my hair already has volume so it ends up looking like a Tribble.) Then they spend 4 hours blow-drying it dead straight when that is absolutely the worst style for the shape of my face. You have no idea how disheartening it is to spend 5 hours in a hair salon to get a Bishon Frise cut that makes you look 20-30 pounds heavier than you are.
If I want a decent hair cut I have to go to a Western salon and pay 4-5 times what Chinese people pay. It sucks- but that's life.
I suspect that African-American owned hair salons charge their Af-Am customers more too. I'd be happy to be proven wrong...

[Ecumenist]

30. Got news for you..

African American salons DO NOT CHARGE MORE to do the hair of their main clientele... not at all...

[qanda]

32. I'm a black woman and can attest to that

[wickerwoman]

37. Just to clarify,

I meant I suspect Af-Am owned salons charge the same as white-owned salons to do Af-Am hair (not that they have 2-tiered pricing too.) I lived near a number of salons when I lived in the U.S. and I remember having the impression that the Af-Am salons were in general much more expensive for everyone. Could easily be wrong though. :shrug:

[Ecumenist]

42. Nope, they're not more expensive.

we tend to have more services done which may have given you that impression but as a rule, there's about an equal level of pricing where it comes to services.

[LostinVA]

35. That's because they don't know how to cut your hair, not that it's harder

A good cutter, who is properly trained and keeps up on things, can cut anyone's hair. Sure, some are better at certain hair types than others, but it's the same. I have very thick, cowlicky hair that has to have layers razored through to thin it out, plus texturizing, and various other stuff. I have short hair. My SO has very fine, straight hair that has stuff done to it. She has long hair. Guess what? The same woman cuts our hair. It takes the same amount of time for each of us. It costs the same amount.

And, I just asked an AA colleague -- it costs less for her hair to be cut at a "black salon" than mine costs.

Dillard's just wants more $$$.

[wickerwoman]

48. I know...

but experience and time cost money. An experienced cutter who knows how to cut all kinds of hair is more expensive for the salon to hire. I accept that I get what I pay for. I can pay $5 for someone who only knows Chinese styles to butcher my hair or I can pay $45 for someone who knows Western styles. It *is* more difficult for Chinese-trained stylists to cut my hair and I'm sure it's more difficult for stylists trained in European styles to cut Af-Am hair. If the salon wants to lose money by only hiring cheap stylists who know only one style I would say they're welcome to do so. I don't think that constitutes discrimination though.

[Ecumenist]

55. My experience is that people trained in Europe

Tend to know how to style, cut and take care of Africn American hair. Especially those from places in northern and Central Europe, ie, the UK, Germany, Austria. Not all of them , mind you but they temd to be a far sight more knowledgeable than many of the white American beauticians. InEurope, there are alot more people from africa with REALLY Nappy, (read:extremely kinky) hair. Go figure...

[Ecumenist]

51. It probably costs less for alot of things BECAUSE

as a rule, Black women get more chemical services and are alot less likely to get their hair cut, trust me. Then again, if you're in the south, the money makers temd to be in things like blowouts, relaxers, pressing and or flat ironing, wet sets, finger waves, protein treatments, weaves, wraps, colours and the granddaddy of them all, BRAIDING. Depending on what type of braids they are, how small, if they involve extensions, they can run anywhere from 100.00 to 1500.00 on up and take as many as 3 days with 2or more braiders.

[Ecumenist]

53. A TRIBBLE??!!

You poor thing you...BICHON FRISE, oh now, that's just wrong... :rofl:

[depakid]

72. "...ends up looking like a Tribble."

:rofl:

Sorry.

[qanda]

19. The ignorance on this thread is amazing!

Just amazing! To just see a black person and charge them more is not the same as seeing someone with long hair and charging them more. Black women don't all have the same type of hair and to assume that is racist. There is a way to charge black women more based on what they want done. They can charge white women one price for perms and black women a different price for relaxers, but to say that to wash and cut black women's hair should cost more is just ridiculous.

[malaise]

25. People hate the truth

Dillards doesn't want black women in their salon. Charge more and keep them out.

[Ecumenist]

44. that;s exactly what is probably going on

I've seen this same thing far too much...

[lumpy]

93. This was common practice many years

ago. A dentist I worked for charged much more than the standard rate if a black person came in for service. He explained he didn't want all the black people in town coming in. He had exclusive clientel.

[LostinVA]

36. I'm white and one your side -- see my post up thread

This si crazy. Just like the argument for charging women more for dry cleaning: nothing but money-making discrimination....

[Ecumenist]

43. AMEN...

[susanna]

70. I posted re: long hair up-thread...

...in response to someone who said that had never happened to them (being charged more).

In no way was I excusing Dillards. They are flat wrong in this case, I think. For context, I'm white and live in a 50/50 AfAm/White area and the salon I frequent charge all patrons the same -- there is only one price list, and the only qualifier on it that I have ever seen is length of hair.

If that makes me ignorant, oh well.

[qanda]

82. I don't believe I was responding to your post

In fact, I'm pretty sure yours wasn't the one that caused my angst, so please forgive me if I offended you. If you read a lot of the responses before mine, you will see that there were some pretty ignorant statements being made. For people on DU to make sweeping assumptions about black people and our hair is unbelievable to me.

[susanna]

104. I'm not offended...

I probably should have realized I inadvertently ended up in a off-shoot of the original post, but I did not, so I was probably off base myself. My apologies, because I did see some ignorant replies along the way...

I have definitely noticed the difference in hair types among all my friends and neighbors, black and white, so I know what you are saying.

Lucky me: I am German/Scot/Irish/English/Cherokee/Creek/Russian/Greek, and my hair is straight, fine yet strangely thick. My stylist HATES it - it holds a style about two seconds, but I refuse to perm it because my aunt did it once and I was a frizzball for WEEKS. :-)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Yeah, it's like not letting blacks sit at the lunch counter...

because it's "harder to clean up after them."

Jesus Christ, how obvious does racism have to be for white people to see it?

[alphafemale]

20. There shouldn't be a price difference

Ethnic hair isn't any harder.

It's different, but people should learn to deal with different hair types.

Long hair, however, is a choice.

It obviously needs more product and time

Not the same thing at all.

And this works both ways...
Walk into a shop that mostly caters primarily to African American heads...as a straight-haired person.
You may not like the results. :D

On edit:
And yes...we have direct experience.
Willing experimental subjects for a friend with a salon...wanting to learn straight hair...
Hey...It grows back. :D

Should white people be charged more?
It's obviously harder.

[Ecumenist]

47. I posted earlier on the thread and said something that

people find surprising BUT we know how to do your hair. the reason being is that usually we have at least one family member and/or friend with straight hair AND when one attends beauty college, most of the courses are taught for straight haired clients. Ethnic hair is something that is usually offered as an extra module and is often an elective thing. However, most of us know how to wash, condition, care for and style kinkier hair types.

[blogslut]

24. Dillards is full of shit

They're saying because black hair is curly and delicate, it takes longer to shampoo? I was a cosmetologist for seven years and that's just a damned lie.

I know what this special pricing is all about because I saw it all the time when I worked at the mall in West Texas. All the stylists would run to the back when a black customer walked in the door because NOBODY TAUGHT THEM HOW TO DO BLACK HAIR.

I've washed, cut, straightened, dyed and styled many black customers. I never had a problem.

Granted, some styles and processes take longer or require more expensive product but that has less to do with race than it does with the length and condition of the hair. I can't tell you the time I spent, trying to comb the tangles out of overbleached "blondes" or the frustration I've felt when I've tried to explain to some vain housewife that their hair breaks off because they keep perming the shit out of it.

Maybe it's a good thing my back gave out on me and I developed carpal tunnel syndrome because of my former profession. I'd be one pissed off woman with scissors if I were still doing hair.

[Ecumenist]

26. What do they mean , "Harder to clean"?

That's just insane, BIG TIME... that's crazy. and if the hair is relaxed, it can be blown dry just like anyone else's, just on a hotter setting and a bit longer in time.

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. Time is the issue

If something takes longer to do, then I have to charge more to do it. Economics 101.

[Ecumenist]

40. DYEW...

Time isn't ALWAYS THE ISSUE.. Read my post down thread...

[Dunvegan]

57. Jiminy Cricket...Just charge for time and materials!

Make the services list a little longer.

If a stylist thinks hair is extremely thick, point to that item in the services menu.

If extra conditioner is required, explain and add it to the list.

If more combing time or blow-drying or hot rollers are/is needed, see "extremely heavy hair" add-on item.

Add up the items and call it "custom salon tailoring"...cut to your particular personal style!

Make a big marketing campaign out of it (Dillon's can probably afford that if they can afford a court case.)

This way it's not unreasonable to just one race. They can also charge appropriately for a White woman with extremely heavy thick and curly hair, as well for a Black woman with thinning, short, relative easy-care hair. Both types exist.

Why should the little old Black woman with a few whisps be a line-item charge higher, while the thick color-treated curly haired White woman is given a lesser charge? That's just nuts. Charge for work like any other tradesman that has varied work, like a contractor: time and materials, ladies.

And, just for the sake of being able to service the community and city you do business in...hire one or two stylists that have ability in many ethnic hair types...from frizzy/whispy...to flat or curly/corse. Just in case so you're not always caught flat when anyone other than a Caucasian strolls in.

*Sigh*...make a positive of the situation. If this was a one-person salon, I'd say "Well, one stylist might be challenged if not very talented to do much more than one type of hair or service. Don't sweat any single tradesperson. Find another."

I do think that Dillard's could have dealt with this better.

[NorthernSpy]

59. yes, this unjustifiable price discrimination, for two reasons:

First, not all blacks have the same sort of hair. Some blacks have hair that is no more fragile, brittle, or inelastic than curly "caucasian" hair. Are black customers who have strong, supple, non-"difficult" hair offered the 'white price'?

Second, lots of whites have hair that has been subjected to harsh chemical processes (bleaching, perming, repeated dyeing), and has become fragile, brittle, and inelastic as a result. Does the salon also charge white people with overprocessed hair a premium for ordinary services such as washing and cutting? If they don't, then they've further undercut their own rationale for charging blacks more.

The problem is that Dillard's has attempted to use the race of the customer as a stand-in for the condition of the customer's hair, and that's just not valid.


As for price discrimination on the basis of hair length, that may be valid for services in which longer hair will require more product. But as far as cutting is concerned, charging the longhairs more is a rip-off. Long hair is not harder to cut than short hair. The argument that it's more time-consuming to cut long hair than short is especially dubious, considering that a lot of people with long hair just want it trimmed straight across.

[noonwitch]

61. I've been to salons that charge more if you have long hair

Maybe if this is an on-going issue, then the salon should charge people by how long it takes to wash and cut their hair.

My black friends usually go to salons that specialize in black hair. I don't know if they are any more or less expensive than any other salon. The one I go to gives a basic cut for about $35. I don't go there all that much-it's too expensive.

[Bridget Burke]

62. Racial discrimination is not a new story at Dillards.

From the Houston Press:

A Closer Look at Dillard's
By Margaret Downing
Article Published Jan 8, 2004

McDowell was a young African-American on his way up -- his expansion plans coinciding with those of the company he worked for, the Louisiana-based Hibernia Bank, looking to move into Texas.

The bank teller had just moved to Orange in April 2001 to begin training for a branch manager position. McDowell was in a new place, far from family, but he knew one thing he could count on was Dillard's.

"I've been shopping at Dillard's all my life. I know the layout," says McDowell.

He'd ordered some shoes from Dillard's in Baton Rouge, but when they arrived, they were defective. He went to several Dillard's stores trying to exchange them, finally finding a pair of brown shoes at the Dillard's in Beaumont. He was in a rush because he also is a minister and was supposed to speak at a church that weekend. The shoes cost $10 more than he'd already paid, so he approached the manager, asking if he could have a courtesy discount for all the time and effort he'd put into trying to find a replacement. The manager said no, and when McDowell expressed his disappointment, the manager called security.

Lots more here:

www.houstonpress.com/Issues/2004-01-08/news/feature.html

[malaise]

63. I'll add them to my

'do not shop there' list and send this to my relatives.

[ismnotwasm]

68. Blatently racist

Period. It's total racist bullshit. Anyone who has touched or combed a black person's hair would know this is bullshit from the gate. So called "kinky" hair is soft and has a beautiful feel to it. It's often thick and easier to work with than fly away straight hair. And as has been mentioned, black hair comes in all textures so the premise is racist.

Special services, or popular services--extentions, weaves whatever also don't need to be priced differently for "Black" hair.

I can't believe this shit.

[LordshipLadyship]

74. riiiiight

So what are the salons going to do if a African American male or female happens to be half or a third something else? Part white, asian, whatever. Charge them higher for part of the hair?

Hair is hair. It is racist, period. Any other conclusion is absurd.

If a stylist has a problem doing hair, then they're the problem, not the client. You learn hair, you learn ALL hair. Part of racism is pretending there isn't any.


Mr. Ladyship

[politicat]

77. Not to defend Dillards, but curls are harder to manage.

Been there, done that and growing out the mistakes right now. I've got fine, dry, Botticelli curls, and I have to treat my hair like a cashmere sweater - no blow dry, tons of conditioner, very careful cuts, the right shampoo, gel, etc. I made the mistake of cutting it off 8 months ago. I won't do that again. (Yes, I will. I chop off my hair about once every 10 years, when I have forgotten how horrible it is to deal with when it's short.)

Anyone who has really curly hair knows that you can't mistreat it, or it looks like a wool ready to be spun. We also know that walking into a regular beauty salon is the kiss of death - cut it wet, and it's hell; cut it dry and slip and you can go invest in a millinery. Curly heads learn to love hats.

And anyone who has ever had a perm or a color treatment knows that you have to be really careful with it afterwards, too. I know that if I go into a salon with my normal length hair (bra to butt) and have it colored or straightened or something set into it, I pay more. It takes more time to roll it or can it or color it, and it has to be treated very carefully.

For the record, I'm white and have very red, twisty hair, and I have been charged more because it is long and/or curly. The only time I get a price break is when I go in and ask for a trim, all one length, one quarter inch off. Mine's hard to work with. I guess you could call my hair ethnic... it's Norse-Irish.

On edit: Dillards is wrong for charging based on race. As I prove, being a white girl doesn't mean my hair's any easier or more difficult to manage, and as many a woman up-thread has said, being black doesn't mean her hair is harder than mine. Hair type and length, okay, that's fair. Skin color? Bullshit.

[NVMojo]

81. gawd, I am speechless ..

[truthisfreedom]

83. distraction thread. let it go.

[Ilsa]

87. When my hair was long I got charged more for more color when getting

a rinse. It required more product and more time to put it on.

[Kailassa]

88. "Well a course we're gonna charge'em like heck for a cleanin.'"

"Y'all know how feelthy them n****s are. Likely as not need th'exterminaters round after having one a them in ma shop afore it's fit for us nice clean whiteys agin."
:sarcasm:

I hope I'm not offending anyone with this. I'm just so angry to see such overt racism, and then see people justifying it here with talk about long hair costing more.


Hey everyone! It's not dirt that makes my hair black, it's melanin. And I don't want that washed out, I'm proud of it.!

[MadMaddie]

95. Umm....I live in the Seattle Area...not a lot of black hairstylist...but

I travel 45 minutes to go to my black beutician.....She has been doing my hair for years....

There are other black beauticians I wouldn't go to...because frankly they suck. I am sure there are some white beauticians that could do my hair...maybe an edge up but that's it....

Now that I have said that....Dilliards needs to look at their policies...for every type of treatment there should be a standard price...a perm on white hair...is the same as a perm on black hair....etc...

[brentspeak]

97. There is one category of customer that definitely should be charged more:

The ones with really bad dandruff.

[geniph]

98. Charging based on race is patently asinine,

they should charge based on difficulty of service, length of time to complete the service, and amount of product used. Period.

I have a ton and a half of somewhat-wavy hair that, until last week, was extremely long. It's also very fast-growing, so that has to be taken into account when styling it. I expect to pay more than someone with rather less hair. But charging based on skin color? That's insane. I've seen plenty of redheaded Irishwomen like myself with hair far nappier than any African-American woman I've ever seen.