SUV sales teeter at turning point with mixed signals from buyers (DetFP)

[Bozita]

Related stories are at the link.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060501/BUSINESS01/605010392

SUV sales teeter at turning point with mixed signals from buyers

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

May 1, 2006


What Would Jesus Drive?

That question was first asked in 2002, when some environmental, political and religious groups demonized SUVs as immoral, gas-guzzling polluters.

The Sport Utility Vehicle Owners of America fired back in its own ads -- "What Does Jesús Rivera Drive?" -- that he proudly drove an SUV, the vehicle that brought prosperity to Detroit automakers and southeast Michigan in the 1990s.

When automakers report their April sales results Tuesday, SUVs -- especially the most popular midsize models like the Ford Explorer, Chevrolet TrailBlazer and Jeep Grand Cherokee -- are expected to take another hit as gas prices approach the feared $3-a-gallon mark.

more...

[gratuitous]

1. Don't re-tool the product line, make another ad buy

Note the lede from the article: "That question was first asked in 2002." Four years ago, Detroit was being signalled by consumers that gas-guzzling, 12 mpg SUVs were losing popularity. In those four years, what have the big automakers done? Improved fuel efficiency? Hah! Re-tooled their product line? Puh-leeze! Rolled out a new ad campaign designed for suckers? Bingo.

And what will Detroit do as the price of gas settles somewhere near $3 a gallon or higher? Another ad campaign, some political contributions, and a lot of public whining about how all of this has caught them by surprise, and shouldn't the government give them some more subsidies? Think of the jobs! Then they'll take the money and tax savings, pay off their upper management teams, lay off a bunch of workers, (sing it with me) pick themselves up, dust themselves off, start all over again.

[Blue_Tires]

26. could not have said it better myself...

actually, i know for a fact that the question was asked even earlier than '02--the big 2.5 have had their heads in the sand for a lot longer than 4 years on this issue

[tanyev]

29. Same philosophy Bushco uses. Not working so well anymore.

[cliss]

2. The customer is always right.

This is one situation where I blame the buyer, not the seller.

Yesterday, we were taking a lovely walk on a Sunday afternoon. We walked through a nearby park. There was a baseball game going on. We stopped to take a look.

In the parking lot, there were maybe 30 cars. 28 of those were SUV's. Several of them were GIGANTIC SUV's. I'd never seen SUV's that big. It must be a Tyrannosaurus Rex type of SUV, I thought.

2 were regular passenger cars.

The message has been out there, for years. When we should have been conserving gas, we went the other direction and guzzled as much as possible.

[LibDemAlways]

7. When my daughter was in kindergarten in 98

I was the only parent of a kid in her class who didn't drive one of those monstrosities. Today she's in 7th grade and those same people are still driving gas guzzling behemoths - just newer models. I cringe at pick up time when they try to squeeze in front or behind me. Bunch of stupid-ass sheep.

[KittyWampus]

12. Why are parents picking up their kids? Why the hell can't they use buses?

The reason cited was parents feel buses are unsafe. Meanwhile, having the schools literally overwhelmed with traffic makes for totally unsafe road conditions at "pick up" time.

[LibDemAlways]

19. You've got that right, and the problem is compounded

when 90% of the "cars" are giant gas guzzlers you can't see around with kids darting out between them. It's chaotic and dangerous. I truly dread "pick up." I get there 40 minutes early to get a choice spot and then some idiot pulls up in a Humvee a minute before the bell rings and double parks, blocking me in. The other day a Yukon wedged in behind me at the last second, and I couldn't get out because another SUV had pulled into the handicapped zone in front of me at the same time and backed up to within inches of my front bumper. Every time I tried to turn the wheel slightly to inch out, the jerk behind me moved in closer. I finally had to turn around and yell at the moron to cut it out.

I live in a district with one middle school and no school buses - no public buses either. The middle school is in an area where there are few homes and it's just too damn far for the kids to walk - especially with those heavy, backache-inducing backpacks they are required to carry loaded up with books. The schools around here give a minimum of 3-4 hours of homework a night with a heavy emphasis on artsy projects in every subject so they are frequently carrying large posters, diorama boxes, etc. It's ridiculous, but that's a topic for a different thread.

[pnwmom]

43. Bus transportation is only available to kids who live a certain

distance from school. Maybe you live in a place where it's safe for a kindergartner to walk a mile or even two to school, but most of us don't. Also, parents are driving to work anyway; usually, it's not a big deal to drop off their children.

[SoCalDem]

59. The "Big-boxifixation" of education created a NEED for busing and driving

Schools used to be "neighborhood-friendly"..Kids from the whole neighborhood would march off to school in large groups and return the same way...walking..

no more:(

[KittyWampus]

11. The Customer Has Been Mindfucked By Million Dollar Ad Campaigns

designed specifically to manufacture the desire for SUV's where non previously existed.

Detriot has psychologists on their payrole who investigated what features and designs would appeal to American's reptilian brain and then Detroit used that information when designed and selling their SUV's.

[LibDemAlways]

21. Well it sure worked around here.

My area is crawling with families where dad drives the cool little sports car and mom carts the two kids around in a humongous piece of shit. I only have one 12-yr-old, but I can take her, three of her friends and their stuff anywhere they want to go in my little Acura sedan that gets close to 40 mpg. I can see the practicality of a minivan for people who need more room, but no one will ever convince me of the necessity of an Escalade-type vehicle for a typical suburban family.

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. SUV's were marketed to Women

Protection against evil (aka men)

Seriously thats what the marketing studies showed. Women feel safer when inside a SUV or other large vehicle.

[dipsydoodle]

66. So do many of them drive

Mack trucks ?

[SOS]

69. Re marketing

The automakers also found a magic money maker in the SUV.
The Hummer is nothing more than a Chevy Tahoe with a different body thrown on top for twice the price.
People are buying pick-up trucks (with a back seat) at grossly inflated prices.
The SUV has been Detroits biggest profit maker ever.

[wordpix2]

77. yeah, let's see them change one of those big tires on the side of the road

[Tesha]

92. Why change the tire?

> yeah, let's see them change one of those big tires
on the side of the road

Why change the tire?

When you feel a tire going flat, just run up over
one of those dinky sports cars like Mazda Miata and
use it as a spare set of wheels!

Tesha

[DelawareValleyDem]

32. Frontline's show on SUVs contains an excellent interview

with consultant Martin Goldfarb, who discusses the marketing technique mentioned in your post.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/interviews/goldfarb.html

[DainBramaged]

3. There is one thing people who own SUV's won't give up

no matter what the price of gas;


Room.


It's that simple. People can argue about being responsible and being good doobies and buying an earth-friendly gas sipper. Ain't going to happen. Some will do it because they can and have no need for the vehicles. Most won't. SUV's are the station wagon of the era, not the minivans, because Dads and Moms buy SUV's. And no matter how you try to explain to those that think that hybrids are the answer to all of the petro problems, nothing trumps room.

Something some folks just don't get.

[kestrel91316]

4. I rarely see an SUV (especially the giant ones) with more than

one or two people in them. They are so fat, or claustrophobic, that they NEED these behemoths???

People get them because they perceive them to be status symbols, or in the mistaken belief that they are "safer" in them.

Conspicuous consumption gas hogs, I say.

[Tesha]

5. SUVs are just the manefestation of highway warfare.

These drivers want to be "safer", even if it makes us less safe.
Sit higher so they can see over us, batter their way through us,
etc.

The sad part is that their "safer" SUVs are rolling (over) death
traps for themselves as well. As with so many American efforts,
not only did they make everyone far less safe, they were even
ineffective at making themselves safer.

Tesha

[TommyO]

30. Highway Warfare is a very apt description

yesterday I witnessed a Hummer (of course) riding people's bumper until they moved over, or until there was an opening for him/her to cut somebody else off - this continued for several miles until I exited the highway - the driver never advanced more than a few car lengths ahead of me before falling behind again.

This morning, a cell-phone toting SUV-driver repeatedly came way too close to me in stop-and-go traffic, including one panic stop that forced the phone from her hand (she then ducked beneath the dashboard while still moving forward to retrieve the phone, made angry gestures towards me and was clearly describing how wrong I was to the person on the other end of the call). She swerved over, passed me, and swerved back into the lane - apparently she didn't like the fact that I was giving the motorcycle rider in front me me some breathing room. I legally passed her in the left lane and didn't see her again until I was pulling off the highway.

I don't blame SUVs, I blame the drivers who think they're invulnerable and expect others to put up with their aggressive driving.

[DainBramaged]

6. Believe what you think is right, have a nice day

One question, got something against fat people? Your opinion is worthless with that kind of attitude.

They are so fat, or claustrophobic

[Seabiscuit]

16. Even if it's true?

Some of them are "so fat, or claustrophobic". That's not bias, that's not opinion, it's a simple fact.

[XemaSab]

41. We got a small SUV (Honda Element) a few months ago

And it's handier than I ever DREAMED it would be.

So far I have hauled boards, a wheelbarrow, a tiller, a load of pavers, a small tree, 2 sky kennels, and about 20 cubic feet of soil (though not all at once). We took our first road trip in it last week and it was really sweet... 3 people, 1 sky kennel, 2 tents, 5 sleeping bags, a cooler, 1 backpack, 2 overnight bags, 2 plastic tubs... it's like magic. One night I even managed to sleep on there with just the kennel taken out.

I feel like such an eco-villain, but that thing has really, really, really come in handy.

[dipsydoodle]

65. I've got the CRV 2.2cdti Sport

Not sure if they do the diesel ones your side or not. Common rail diesels are as quiet and smooth as petrol engines. Mine does about 40mpg to an an english imperial gallon which is I guess is 32 mpg for a USA gallon. Sport is just the trim. If you want to see the spec. you'd need to go into honda.co.uk

[AndyTiedye]

8. They Don't Have To. SUVs come in Hybrid Too

[Tesha]

9. If your theory held any water...

> There is one thing people who own SUV's won't give up
> no matter what the price of gas;
> Room.

If your theory held any water, they'd all be driving
minivans. Minivans have more interior volume and better
fuel economy than an SUV of similar exterior dimensions.

But we can always count on you for a ringing (wringing?)
defense of these manufactured-by-macho-marketing dinosaurs.

Tesha

[KittyWampus]

13. My station wagon has boatloads of room. And SUV's were purchased

because Dad didn't want a minivan or stationwagon since it hurt his independant image. Couldn't drive around looking like a grown up or parent, now could he?]

And SUV's were also designed SPECIFICALLY to appeal to our reptilian brain. Wheel hubs that look like clenched fists, grills that look like bared teeth etc etc.

SUV sales grew because Detroit designed and advertised them in a very special way INTENTIONALLY. Detroit knew what they were doing and set reasons for doing it.

An advertisement for stationwagons or minivans as well as reworking the designs to appeal to this or that emotion would do the same.

[DainBramaged]

25. I liked this line of yours a lot, because it is so generalized

And SUV's were also designed SPECIFICALLY to appeal to our reptilian brain. Wheel hubs that look like clenched fists, grills that look like bared teeth etc etc.

I DARE you to find an suv produced today where you even see the wheel hubs, since ALL engage electrically. Big manual hubs on production SUV's disappeared in the early 90's. And grilles downsized like people's brains did years ago.

Bad information and rumor mongering is ignorant.

[KittyWampus]

33. This is a matter of fact. Here's 1 article. Educate yourself

From Washington Monthly:

Bumper Mentality
A review of Keith Bradsher's High and Mighty: SUVs Buy the book

By Stephanie Mencimer

....according to New York Times reporter Keith Bradsher's new book, High and Mighty, .... Unlike any other vehicle before it, the SUV is the car of choice for the nation's most self-centered people; and the bigger the SUV, the more of a jerk its driver is likely to be.

According to market research conducted by the country's leading automakers, Bradsher reports, SUV buyers tend to be "insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors and communities. They are more restless, more sybaritic, and less social than most Americans are. They tend to like fine restaurants a lot more than off-road driving, seldom go to church and have limited interest in doing volunteer work to help others."

He says, too, that SUV drivers generally don't care about anyone else's kids but their own, are very concerned with how other people see them rather than with what's practical, and they tend to want to control or have control over the people around them. David Bostwick, Chrysler's market research director, tells Bradsher, "If you have a sport utility, you can have the smoked windows, put the children in the back and pretend you're still single."

Armed with such research, automakers have, over the past decade, ramped up their SUV designs to appeal even more to the "reptilian" instincts of the many Americans who are attracted to SUVs not because of their perceived safety, but for their obvious aggressiveness. Automakers have intentionally designed the latest models to resemble ferocious animals. The Dodge Durango, for instance, was built to resemble a savage jungle cat, with vertical bars across the grille to represent teeth and big jaw-like fenders. Bradsher quotes a former Ford market researcher who says the SUV craze is "about not letting anything get in your way, and at the extreme, about intimidating others to get out of your way."

....In their attempt to appear youthful and hip, SUV owners have filled the American highways with vehicles that exact a distinctly human cost, frequently killing innocent drivers who would have survived a collision with a lesser vehicle. Bradsher quotes auto execs who concede that the self-centered lifestyle of SUV buyers is apparent in "their willingness to endanger other motorists so as to achieve small improvements in their personal safety."

After covering the auto industry for six years, Bradsher is an unabashed critic of sports-utility vehicles and the automakers that continue to churn them out knowing full well the dangers they pose. He doesn't equivocate in his feeling that driving an SUV is a deeply immoral act that places the driver's own ego above the health and safety of those around him, not to mention the health of the environment. Ironically, and though most supposedly safety-conscious owners don't realize it, SUVs even imperil those who drive them.

Road Rodeo

Ask a typical SUV driver why he drives such a formidable vehicle, and he'll invariably insist that it's for safety reasons--the kids, you know--not because he's too vain to get behind the wheel of a sissy Ford Windstar. Automakers themselves know otherwise--their own market research tells them so. But Bradsher makes painfully clear that the belief in SUV safety is a delusion. For decades, automakers seeking to avoid tougher fuel economy standards have invoked the fiction that the bigger the car, the safer the passenger. As a result, most Americans take it on faith that the only way to be safe on the highway is to be driving a tank (or the next best thing--a Hummer). Bradsher shatters this myth and highlights the strange disconnect between the perception and the reality of SUVs.

The occupant death rate in SUVs is 6 percent higher than it is for cars--8 percent higher in the largest SUVs. The main reason is that SUVs carry a high risk of rollover; ...SUVs don't handle well, so drivers can't respond quickly when the car hits a stretch of uneven pavement or "trips" by scraping a guardrail. Even a small bump in the road is enough to flip an SUV traveling at high speed. On top of that, SUV roofs are not reinforced to protect the occupants against rollover; nor does the government require them to be.

Because of their vehicles' size and four-wheel drive capability, SUV drivers tend to overestimate their own security, which prompts many to drive like maniacs, particularly in inclement weather. And SUV drivers--ever image-conscious and overconfident--seem to hate seat belts as much as they love talking on their cell phones while driving....

While failing to protect their occupants, SUVs have also made the roads more dangerous for others. The "kill rate," as Bradsher calls it, for SUVs is simply jaw-dropping. For every one life saved by driving an SUV, five others will be taken. Government researchers have found that a behemoth like the four-ton Chevy Tahoe kills 122 people for every 1 million models on the road; by comparison, the Honda Accord only kills 21. Injuries in SUV-related accidents are likewise more severe.

Part of the reason for the high kill rate is that cars offer very little protection against an SUV hitting them from the side--not because of the weight, but because of the design. ....

Ironically, SUVs are particularly dangerous for children,....Because these beasts are so big and hard to see around (and often equipped with dark-tinted glass that's illegal in cars), SUV drivers have a troubling tendency to run over their own kids. ....

To illustrate the kind of selfishness that marks some SUV drivers, Bradsher finds people who rave about how they've survived accidents with barely a scratch, yet neglected to mention that the people in the other car were all killed. (One such woman confesses rather chillingly to Bradsher that her first response after killing another driver was to go out and get an even bigger SUV.) The tragedy of SUVs is that highway fatalities were actually in decline before SUVs came into vogue....

No Roads Scholars Here

Bradsher blames government for failing to adequately regulate SUVs, but doesn't fully acknowledge the degree to which it has encouraged SUV production by becoming a major consumer of them. Law enforcement and public safety agencies in particular seem enamored of the menacing vehicles, a fact on proud display when officers finally apprehended the alleged snipers in the Washington, D.C., area and transported them to the federal courthouse in a parade of black Ford Explorers and Expeditions. ...

Government's taste for SUVs isn't limited to cops and firemen. There's hardly a city in America where the mayor's chauffeured Lincoln Town Car hasn't been replaced by an SUV. ....

As Bradsher details, because of their weight, shoddy brakes, and off-road tires, SUVs handle poorly in bad weather and have trouble stopping on slick roads. What's more, they're generally so poorly designed as not to be capable of carrying much cargo, despite the space. A contributing factor in the Ford Explorer-Firestone tire debacle was that drivers weren't told that their Explorers shouldn't carry any more weight than a Ford Taurus. The extra weight routinely piled in these big cars stressed the tires in a way that made them fall apart faster and contributed to the spate of rollover deaths.

snip
... But if soccer moms and office-park dads really need to ferry a lot of people around, they could simply get a large car or a minivan, which Bradsher hails as a great innovation for its fuel efficiency, safety, and lower pollution. (And minivans don't have a disproportionately high kill rate for motorists or pedestrians when they get into accidents.) According to industry market research, minivan drivers also tend to be very nice people. Minivans are favored by senior citizens and others (male and female, equally) who volunteer for their churches and carpool with other people's kids. But that's the problem. SUV owners buy them precisely because they don't want the "soccer mom" stigma associated with minivans.

snip



Stephanie Mencimer is a contributing editor of The Washington Monthly.

[DainBramaged]

36. Washington Monthly, a true authority on the SUV phenomena

I didn't read a single word of the article. Sorry, I just don't care. They have zero authority regarding automotive issues. With a paid total circulation of about 60,000 monthly, they sure are experts.

[Karmakaze]

38. LALALALALALA

<FINGERS IN EARS> I can't hear you!

You sure live up to your name...

[Tesha]

47. It's okay; he probably didn't read Bradsher's *BOOK* either. (NT)

[DainBramaged]

56. So there, I don't care, back at ya

and I also love it when people on my ignore list pop up in these discussions.

[Karmakaze]

60. LOL!

The level of discourse from you is astounding!

Someone proves you wrong and your response is essentially to put your fingers in your ears. I comemnt on that then you put images essentially saying "kiss my ass". Grade School debating sure has come a long way!

[DainBramaged]

61. nobody proved shit, I didn't feel like responding because

I was fucking busy working, so kiss my wrinkled old ass.

[Karmakaze]

62. Wow your story changed...

Here is what you said then:

"I didn't read a single word of the article. Sorry, I just don't care."

here is what you are saying now:

"I didn't feel like responding because I was fucking busy working"

Hmm something doesnt quite gel there - what was it, were you too busy, or did you just not care what the article said?

[DainBramaged]

67. TO YOU so there, Jesus I have a Mother, bite me

Two words, they aren't merry Xmas.

Go piss up a rope, argue with somebody else. You fuckers don't go after the Mercedes and BMW's that get horrific millage, so go find another issue.

[Karmakaze]

76. Someone has major issues...

I assume you are SUV owner - your personalisation of the issue seems to indicate that quite strongly. If so, high gas prices will hurt you far more than anything I have to say so :P

[Tesha]

83. (He's an SUV builder; his job depends on Americans staying...)

(He's an SUV builder; his job depends on Americans staying
addicted to these things.)

(Hey! Did you hear that Toyota is now #3 in cars in America,
replacing Daimler-Chrysler?)

Tesha

[Karmakaze]

87. Well, if that is true I can understand his feelings...

Especially in this day and age the last thing anyone needs is to be "downsized". Hopefully his factory will switch to more fuel efficient vehicles and he doesnt have to go without work.

[calimary]

90. Got a link? This is a MOST interesting article.

Describes a lot of the motorists in my area. Cars ARE an extension of the people who drive them. Especially here in Southern California. You can tell a LOT about the person behind the wheel by looking at what they're driving, and how they drive it. Invariably, the mommies in the SUVs in my neighborhood are on their cellphones while they're driving, and seriously absorbed in their own little world rather than watching how safely (or not) they drive. They forget that the roads are to be SHARED, not dominated. The point is to SHARE the road with other drivers, not bully everybody and hog more space than you deserve just because you want to seem bigger, more important, and more invincible, than everybody else around you.

In my area, too, it's just plain ol' status. All the teenagers in affluent families drive hot BMWs or big-ass Escalades because their parents like to show off how rich and/or successful they are. Annoying thing is, though, my kids can't say enough bad things about their dad's minivan, and they want me in an SUV for my next car, while I'm perfectly happy sticking with my midsized sedan.

[Tesha]

93. That's an extract (or paraphrase) of...

Keith Bradsher's book "High and Mighty", all about
the SUV craze.

Tesha

[Seabiscuit]

14. It's not room, or people would be buying minivans.

Minivans are much more spacious than the vast majority of SUV's and get better gas mileage. I know, because I bought one last year, and compared the spaciousness and mileage to that of SUV's in general. Up until then I have always driven sub-compacts with 30+ mpg. Now I have a larger family, and use the minivan only when I need to accomodate more than I can in my little Corolla.

Anyone telling you they just do it because they need the room is lying to cover up the fact that they crave those monstrosities to inflate their winky-dink pencil-dick egos during a time of conflict on huge oversized tires and jacked up suspensions. They want to be "higher" and be able to look down on the traffic. They also want to feel the power of the oversized engine and feel the illusion of safety inside all that Detroit metal. The Hummer owners are the ultimate suckers for this Detroit ploy. This is nothing new in America - it started with the monster truck fad, and has spread to what sometimes seems like a majority of the sheeple.

It's all psycological and, frankly, psychotic.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Not always

It isn't always what you see. Kind of like when someone doesn't limp getting out of the car in the handicapped parking space. You can't see the weak heart or the brain tumor.

Our SUV is one car for four adults and two infants. Most Americans have one car per person. We share. I personally don't drive. It pulls a tractor regularly..a big tractor. It is a delivery van for floral deliveries and carpools regularly with four toddlers.

Lots of folks use SUV's to pull RVs and boats. (At least in my area, boats in particular.)

And really, I can tell you there isn't a winky-dink pencil dick in my family, and I've seen them all. (a little too MUCH information?)

We did a lot of research before buying our car and its rollover rate (2006 Armada) is much improved from earlier more narrow wheel-based vehicles.

The safety issue brings up something that intrigues me. First, I know that new smaller cars have decent safety records and older SUV's do not necessarily. However, there is no doubt that when you drive a small car and hit a large vehicle (pick up, SUV, etc.) your chances of survival are lower than if you are in a vehicle of equal size. And Tallahassee is the home of the teenage monster truck and from 6AM until 9 and after 3, they are everywhere. I admire the fact that obviously so many DU'er strap their children into small cars and take their chances out there in the interest of the common good. I so admire that. But I just can't do it. I know that if my grandchildren were ever killed in a wreck where they hit a large car, I might as well just stop living. I would never forgive myself. My altruism just is not that polished.

We live in a college town and drive right through the campus on the way to work. You wouldn't believe how many middle fingers we get because we are in a big SUV. Then they see my DU sticker and they look so very confused, poor babies.

[imlost]

34. SUV's suck! unless..

Granny, I hate SUV's unless they are being used for what they are meant to be used for.
It sounds like you have a legitimate use for one. I volunteer in Search and Rescue and many use
SUV's. I have nothing against this. I myself still choose to drive a wagon. I see no reason to change this.

Here in the bay area many drive these monster. Most don't need them. They are terrible drivers. They put
themselves and the general poulation at risk. They put my life at risk!

You're fooling yourself if you think you are safer in an SUV. Most SUV accidents are single car. Maybe you feel safer but you're not.
look at the stats and you will see. I can't pull them up for you, I have too run to SAR practice.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. I hear you

I know the safety stats for the SUV skewed because of the roll overs. My biggest concern is collisions with pick ups and other SUV's, particularly head ons. We must travel about 10 miles of curvy, hilly two-lane road to work, and it has huge live oak trees right on the shoulder. We have had many very close head on calls, all with impatient teens in HUGE pick ups with giant tires.

Do you know anything about stats with small car vs. pick ups/SUV's? I couldn't find any.


T-Grannie

[Tesha]

48. Maybe there shouldn't be quite so many pickups either?

Especially being run at high speeds by inexperienced kids?

Then you wouldn't need to escalate the road war?

Tesha

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. You know

I believe in personal freedom and all that, but if they came up with a law that said kids under 18 couldn't drive those things, I'd be all for it. I live near a high school and my daughter, who has two babies, simply won't go out over the lunch period or right after dismissal. They pass on the right, on the shoulder, they rev up, hang out their windows, ignore the solid lines. They are a menace.

[Tesha]

52. The real hazard...

The real hazard (and I say this having been that age once)
is that kids simply don't know how vehicles perform in
certain abnormal but not-really-uncommon situations.

Pickup trucks have the specific hazard that, if they're
unloaded, the rear end "breaks free" very easily, and
kids don't understand that. And the solid-axle rear
suspension that so many trucks still have (for perfectly
good technical reasons because of the huge loads they're
designed to carry) makes for handling that's far worse
than what the kids are used-to in their experience with
cars that have unit bodies, low centers of gravity, fully-
independent suspensions, and relatively even loads on the
four wheels.

A few years ago, we got a dramatic demonstration of the
problems of inexperience. Near our house of the time,
there's a road that simultaneously curves and crosses
a little hilltop at the same time. After the curve,
but aligned with the path the road was taking before
the curve is a very large tree.

You can imagine what happened.

A car full of kids was racing home to meet their curfew.
They crossed the hilltop at pretty high speed, the car
"unloaded", and they were unable to track around the
curve. They crashed head-on into the tree and a large
branch of the tree fell on them. A block away, I
heard it. "Wham - - - wumf!" The two kids in the front
were killed instantly and the three in the back were injured.
There was no alcohol involved and no inclement weather.
These kids were just going too fast for this turn and
didn't realize that their upward momentum over the hilltop
would mean their tires couldn't grip as well as usual.

Experienced drivers knew about this turn; going the
other direction, the north-facing side of the little
hill ices up in the winter and every year, somebody
would put their car through the fence and into the
little brook beneath the hill. But these kids didn't
have that experience yet and would now never get it.

I still go by that tree from time to time, and the big
scar on it reminds me of that awful night.

Tesha

[TallahasseeGrannie]

53. We have similar situations here in Tallahassee

with winding roads and big trees. I wold say that most of our fatalities are single drivers late at night, going too fast to handle the car.

Here, they always cut the tree down. Kind of sad for the tree, which was just standing there minding its own business.

[happyslug]

70. One Side affect of the SUV Craze is the NON-increase in Pick Up sales

Pick-up sales have been steady for Decades, once you remove the SUVs from the Light Truck Category, this is clear (Through I do NOT know how the recent move to four door Pickup trucks is affecting this, I suspect four Door Pickups are more like SUVs than regular Pickups, even pickups with extended cabs without the extra doors).

At first this sounds strange, SUV sales are up, but pickup sales were steady? Then you look at some of the studies on how was buying what, Pickup buyers had attitudes more like Mini-van drivers (and old fashion Station wagon Drivers) than SUV drivers. As one old hand told me, he has seen a lot of Mini-Van drivers pick up a lot of Kids to go play little league, he has seen a lot of Pick up Drivers do the Same, but he had a difficult time remembering when he saw a SUV pick up more than the owner's children and those Children's close friends (Unlike Pick Ups and Mini-Van Driver who tend to pick up the whole team).

I also have heard SUV drivers who do NOT want a Pick up for they are afraid people they know will want to borrow it (Most Pick Up Drivers on the other do loan out their pick ups to their friends and neighbors, a key difference between SUV and Pick Up drivers).

As to hauling ability, nothing beats a pickup. IF you cover a Pickup with a Cab (Which are cheap and which two men can remove or put on as needed). People who want to haul do NOT get a SUV, they get a Pickup. Thus do NOT confuse the two, even if they are made on the same platform, they are purchased by two different types of people.

[Seabiscuit]

42. Your situation is not representative of 99.99% of SUV drivers.

This is the first time I've ever heard of someone using an SUV to pull a "really big" tractor or make floral deliveries in addition to carpooling. You're obviously using a large SUV as a substitute for owning both a pickup truck (tractor pulling), a panel van (floral deliveries) and a minivan or station wagon (carpooling).

That's cool, but that's not how or why the vast majority of SUV drivers drive their monster vehicles, and I have no doubt you know that. Before SUV's existed I'm sure you and your family found other ways to get around.

I've also never seen an SUV used to pull boats. Pick-up trucks, yes, but even here in San Diego where there are a lot of boat owners, I've never seen a boat pulled by an SUV, though I've seen many pulled by pickups.

The SUV's driven here in San Diego almost always contain just the driver - it's extremely rare to see 5 or 6 people or more inside of one that's driving down the road.

Obviously, there will be unusual exceptions like yours to the rule here and there, but that doesn't invalidate the rule, which I spelled out in my post and stand by.

[Tesha]

45. Don't worry; recreational motorboating is going away too.

Lots of people use a 1% usage as their justification
for owning an SUV. "I have to have one to pull my
boat trailer" ("the 1% of the time that I actually pull
the boat trailer" they fail to add).

But recreational motorboating will be going away too,
at least for things bigger than a bass boat with a
6HP Honda hanging off the back; people just won't
be able to fuel their 500 HP* outboard motor any more
than they'll be able to fuel their SUVs.

Pretty soon, people are going to be faced with some
stark choices regarding what things are "needs" versus
what things are "wants" versus what things are merely
"nice to haves".

At least the people who claim they need their SUVs
"to pull their horse trailers" will have some alternate
transportation when the gas is gone, and maybe the horses
can then make things even by pulling around the old SUV?

Tesha



* Yes, I'm exagerating, but only by a factor of about
two, and lots of folks have two of these monsters hanging
off the back of their boats, just so they can race back
and forth while making enough noise to be heard in the
next county.

[BrightKnight]

81. a good time to invest in one of these

[Tesha]

82. Hey! I already *HAVE* one of those...

Well, not that big fancy one; an original Hobie-16 that's
still going strong nearly 30 years after I bought it. And
a nice aluminum trailer on which I can tow it.

(I used to tow it very successfully behind my huge,
extremely muscular 1477cc VW Scirocco that routinely
got 35-40 MPG when it wasn't towing the boat.)

Tesha

[MadHound]

22. Having witnessed the oil shocks of the seventies, let me say

That when the price of gas goes up enough, you'll be seeing people drop those damn things like they were on fire. It's happened before, and it will happen again.

Back during the oil shocks of the seventies America was hooked on big behemoth cars with large V8 engines. When I think of some of the horsepower I was turned loose with I'm amazed that I'm still alive. A four door Chrysler sedan, your basic family car, came complete with 454 hemi engine. Did we we need that much power? Hell know, but when I was learning how to drive I thought it was sure a lot of fun, and damn near the death of me a couple of times.

Pundits thought that America would never let loose of those fine phat engines. But then came the oil shocks, and the gas lines, and my how those huge behemoths, including station wagons, hit the used car lots and the scrap yards. People who had vowed to never, ever buy one of the "Jap Crap" cars suddenly started tooling around in Toyotas. People who laughed at the shoe box size of the original Honda CVCCs took a look at the mileage that came with them, and shut up.

People may be slow sometimes, but they're generally not stupid. Already we started to see SUVs and pickups hitting the used car lots last fall, and we're seeing more and more hit them now. New SUVs are being deeply discounted on the lots right now, but there are few takers. Meanwhile there's a line a mile long for Prius and other hybrids. And there is a small boom going on in scooters and other economicaly minded two-wheelers.

Pundits didn't think Americans would sacrifice room back in the day, but they did, to the point where they cut US oil consumption by 1/6. When the pinch starts to hurt, they'll do so again. It's only a matter of time and money.

[wordpix2]

78. I see the Prius has actually dropped in price. I was considering buying

one when it first came out but was concerned about it being a first-generation hybrid with no Consumer Report rating to rely on. It retailed for about $24K then (around 2002). I just saaw a 2006 new Prius advertised at $21K

[NickB79]

58. Odd, my very large coworker just bought a Scion xB

He loves it, and is delighted it gets 30 mpg in the city.

He said he couldn't believe how roomy it was when he sat down in it, since he's 5'9" and well over 250 lbs.

Some folks just don't get that you don't need to transport every possession you own on a daily basis in the back of your vehicle.

[Tesha]

84. A while ago, Daniel Pinkwater recommended...

A while ago, Daniel Pinkwater, author, NPR commentator,
and self-admitted "very large person" recommended VW's
New Beetle as a design for larger people. He claimed that
after "trying on" a lot of cars, he decided to trade his
BMS 7-series for the roomier-for-him Beetle.

Being physically large is no excuse for "needing" an SUV.
If anything, many SUVs require a more-awkward "climb in"
than either a car or a minivan.

Tesha

[A-4300SX]

10. When will it ever stop?

How big does a car/truck have to be before it's big enough?

Everyday I see more and more of these huge vehicles (NEVER more than one or two people in them) crowding the highways where i live...

Sorry for the rant - it just seems that the last people to have even tried to address this situation were Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. Unfortunately, no matter how often Americans are told of the looming energy crisis, it would seem to me that the only thing that will cause the public as a whole to conserve will be even higher energy prices.

If indeed we are at a turning point with regard to the sales of these large vehicles, I truly hope that Detroit will meet the challenge with more efficient vehicles, but more importantly, an aggressive marketing compaign that removes the stigma from driving anything that even remotely hints of fuel efficiency.

Do I make any sense?

[catmandu57]

27. As much sense as anyone else

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Tesha]

46. How big is big enough?

> When will it ever stop?
> How big does a car/truck have to be before it's big enough?

A little bigger than the other guy's of course!

Oh, were we comparing *TRUCK* sizes?

Tesha

[A-4300SX]

57. My thoughts exactly, Tesha!

Highways are always safest when:

> most vehicles are traveling at a similar speed, and
> most vehicles are of a similar size.

The only point of driving a huge vehicle is to be "bigger" than everything else in order to exude some sort of superiority.

Unfortunately, when an SUV tangles with an 18-wheeler, it really doesn't make much difference at this point; in the end, safe driving skills are the only thing that'll save you.

Meanwhile, most radio talk-show hosts think that it's a conspiracy to want people to drive vehicles of similar size, etc, when in fact, It's really all about physics!

Oh, wait! Calculus? Physics? Limbaugh? Oh, nevermind, NEVERMIND!

Enjoy life and drive friendly.

[catmandu57]

15. Sooner or later peer pressure will kill these things

I believe most people got these things because joe blow next door bought one, then the smiths got one then the jones and so on and so on anbd so on, like the old commercial went.
Sooner or later they just won't be the fad anymore, they've lasted longer than I thought they would, but, more people will be going back to cars now.
Pretty soon joe blow will have a new Honda, the Smiths will get a new Nissan, and so on.

[Extend a Hand]

17. what they won't give up is the 25% tax credit

for business purchases of vehicles built on a truck chassis.

[DainBramaged]

23. Must be over 6000lbs. and it expired

So your supposition is wrong.

[kutastha]

18. Three SUV stories

One of my brothers-in-law drives one of those behemoth trucks, why I don't know. I saw him two weeks ago and he was driving his '92 Honda. I asked him why he wasn't driving his beast and he replied, "I can't afford to drive it anymore."

I was out with my other brother-in-law a few weeks ago and he was wowed by a similar truck on the freeway. I pondered how much gas mileage the beast got, and he commented on how there are hybrid SUVs now. I asked how much mileage those get and he seemed impressed with the whopping 25 mpg. I can't say I was as impressed.

About a year ago a friend of mine bought an SUV. I asked him why and he said, "Because of my two kids, one of them has a stroller, then the diapers and toys and all that. You'll see one day." Can't say I see. Of course, I didn't have one of those gargantuan strollers when I was a kid and we sure didn't have SUVs back then. I'm sure as hell never going to own one. Needless to say, he told me last week he was selling it since he can't afford the gas.

[Skittles]

39. OMG a soccer mom I saw on TV the other day

saying she HAD to have a mini-van for her three kids - good lord, I was one of SIX KIDS and we did fine without piece of SHIT SUVs

[AZCat]

64. When we got the mini-van...

it did make long trips easier, but this was back in the eighties and I think it had a four-banger and got pretty good gas mileage (although I could be wrong). Definitely not an SUV.

[DainBramaged]

24. It comes down to personal choice, yours not theirs

It is YOUR choice NOT to drive what is offered in large vehicles, it is the CHOICE of ten's of millions of people to drive them.

NO ONE has the right to preach and condemn those who drive vehicles that YOU as responsible DU members deem wrong for YOU. If you think these vehicles are wrong. take pride in the fact that you've made another choice. I am SO tired of so many of you bitching like children because OTHERS didn't make the same choice you did.

How rude and ignorant. Stop being so Republican.

[Skittles]

40. it is irresponsible to drive gas-guzzling pieces of shit

WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO OPINIONS. Understand? No one is saying BAN the damn thigs, just MAKE BETTER CHOICES and stop driving the symbol of AMERICAN GREED AND ARROGANCE.

[Seabiscuit]

50. I'll take exception to that...

I'll go so far as to say BAN THE DAMNED THINGS.

And pass legislation in every state making it a misdemeanor to drive any vehicle while talking on or using a cell phone. Make the penalties identical to those for DUI - complete with fines, jail time, compulsory driver ed classes, and license suspensions (and lifetime revocations for a 3rd offense in 5 years).

The worst menace on the highway today is some hugh moran yapping on a cellphone while speeding, weaving around changing lanes and tailgaiting while driving some monster SUV.

[DainBramaged]

55. Like I said, everybody has the right to choice, good or bad

Give me a list of a gas-guzzling pieces of shit, not just Hummers, because you (like everyone here)seem to lump every one of them into your statement.

[Seabiscuit]

72. You need someone to give you a list? You don't know SUV's???

[lastliberalintexas]

95. Arrgh! You just made the same mistake I see repeated here

all the time. The post to which you replied asked for a list of gas guzzling pieces of shit and you replied with SUV specific language.

I am not a defender of SUVs. I drive a Ford Taurus which gets great gas mileage, and I am able to do so even with a child (and all the stuff he entails) much to the amazement of others who seem to think that I neeeeed an SUV. Indeed, when I mentioned recently that I thought my next car would be a hybrid of some sort (if Ford and GM have them by then) or a Ford Fusion, a friend said "But it's so small. Don't you need more room than that?" What- for the 5 days a week I commute to work alone? :crazy:

But SUVs are not the only gas guzzlers on the road, not by a long shot. They might be the category of gas guzzlers in which most people who drive them have no real use for them, but there are plenty of minivans which get worse gas mileage than the Ford Escape, the Toyota RAV4 and the Honda CRV. There are plenty of people (esp men in the South) who drive a truck when a sedan would truly suit their purposes, despite the fact that trucks usually get horrible gas mileage. SUV drivers are not the only ones who are wasteful and who use vehicles as status symbols rather than the mere mode of transportation that they are.

You people who are so damn focused on SUVs need to take the blinders off and look at the big picture.

[lakeguy]

44. when CHOICES other people make affect the current and future

quality of life for myself and my family, i will try to do something about it. no one has the CHOICE to fuck up living conditions for the rest of us. even arguing that it is purely CHOICE is sketchy considering how much money US auto makers invest in commercials for SUVs compared to more "responsible" type vehicles.

talk about rude and ignorant.

[DainBramaged]

54. Whatever do what YOU can, don't force others to do what you do

Your whole premise for the argument is because these vehicles are there, people shouldn't buy them until an acceptable choice FOR YOU is available. Bullshit. Stop blaming "them", do what you can and simply help rather than condemn. It is EVERYBODY's planet, not just yours or mine for Christ's sake.


And if you think that automakers invest more in commercials for SUV's PROVIDE FACTS, don't throw shit against the wall.

[Seabiscuit]

49. What a pathetic copout.

[AZCat]

63. I disagree.

Vehicle choice is one of those "personal decisions" that has an impact on others. While I may choose not to drive an SUV, I have to live with the consequences of the millions of others who do choose to drive one. Does this mean I get to veto their choices? Not necessarily, but I believe that I am well within my "rights" to try, for the same reason that we as a society have chosen to prevent people from storing nuclear waste in their front yards. Sure - it's a personal choice, but we have decided that those of us who didn't make that choice shouldn't have to live with the consequences of a narrow-minded individual. There are innumerable restrictions to the freedom of choice you have about your daily life, and I think it is incorrect that this pursuit of an additional restriction (one that I consider reasonable) is as you labelled - rude, ignorant, and Republican. Instead I think that it is short-sighted to protect individual choice at the expense of the group, as you seem to be advocating.

[DainBramaged]

68. You violate the right of the individual to choice, period

This is transportation, not nuclear power. That is simply a ridiculous comparison. Bishy is trying to start a "nukler" war wih Iran, and you think SUV's are the end of the world? You don't want to live near an SUV owner, move, it's that simple.

Before you condemn the people who own ANY vehicle that gets poor gas millage, remember to not give a pass to automobiles that fall into the same category. And when you can convince the manufacturers to be more responsible (in your view) then maybe people will be able to make (in your view) a better choice.

Remember, SUV's include Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Land Rover, not just the Amurikan hulks so many here hate. When you start including those brands in the equation then we have something to discuss.

And since it appears that the target of so much anger here are the big bad SUV's, why don't those of you who view them as excessive petition or campaign for more diesel powered vehicles. Better millage, fewer emissions.

Go for it. Don't argue with me, I have no control over the situation. I only live in the snowy Northeast in an area where one lane roads make winter travel fun, and I'd get another AWD/4WD vehicle if my finances allowed it. But, that doesn't matter to most here; sacrifice, wear sack cloth, it's the end of the world as we know it, just because some of us believe that eliminating a class of vehicles is not the answer.

[BrightKnight]

80. Am I entitled to release 12 tons of CO2 per year?

My parents drove a 4wd American SUV to work every day at a ski resort. They constantly used it to haul propane tanks, equipment, and skis. There were almost always 2 people in the vehicle. It was not a mega SUV and they bought it largely for functional reasons. I can't really fault them too much for it.

Am I entitled to drive an urban commuter car that releases 12 tons of CO2 per year. Most people use them to haul sailboat fuel.

--------

Three dollar gas is going to kill a lot of these dinosaurs regardless of what the marketing department does. I really hope that American Auto makers have a plan B. I'll support it when I see it. I can see and appreciate that American car companies have been improving.

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. Wow. You don't think that $3+ per gallon is actually waking folks up, do?

Imagine that.

[Melsky]

37. dinosaurs

I wonder how long until people will start marketing conversion kits that can turn them into a spare bedroom or garden shed or something.

[dmallind]

71. There's some projection here I think

My last three vehicles have been:

Acura Sedan - 18mpg
Chrysler SUV/Crossover/Minivan/whatever you call it - 18mpg
Mercedes Sedan - 19mpg

All figures given are real world mixed urban/suburban driving, not the usual BS window sticker estimates (although to give MB credit, for the first time in over 20 cars I've owned, they actually post what it really gets)

Not a lot of difference. Certainly no huge swing against the SUVs. Is it just Humvees and Suburbans (or whatever they call em these days) that are bad or is anything jacked up on a truck frame bad? Lots of SUVs get better mileage than lots of cars.

So is it consumption or style that bothers people? Most posters seem to object to SUV on ecological grounds when they can abjure from unqualified and ill-informed distance psychoanalysis (and no I'm not being defensive - personally I've never owned a "real" SUV although quite a few get better gas mileage than the crossover I did have. This is just personal taste - I generally don't like the driving characteristics of SUVs built on truck or minivan frames - something like the RX330 drives better but I found it too small for me to be comfy)


Like the one poster said - room matters and SUVs and other not particularly economical vehicles have more room than econoboxes. While the only unforgivable sin on DU is to be fat it seems, obesity rarely comes into play. I have a prodigious gut true but bugger all fat on my shoulders. I'm an ex-powerlifter with a 56" chest and big shoulders. Can't "pinch an inch" or even close to it on the part of my body that needs room. Trust me my gut fits just fine in a Miata let alone an SUV (used to have one - lots of shoulder room with the top and windows down :-) ) You have to be REALLY fat to cause you to not fit into a small car all that well - but you don't have to be all that BIG to do it. Anybody who's done any kind of lifting or is just naturally broad is going to be slammed up against the side of a Civic etc - let alone if your passenger is also broad shouldered. Few cars have shoulder room to speak of and who wants to have their arms pushed in and forward constantly by a door glass in a tiny little box just so he can sanctimoniously complain about gas consumption? Try driving fewer miles instead - it saves much more gas, emissions and damage than buying a smaller car.

Oh and PS - the Miata - one of the smallest cars on the road - averaged only 21mpg - just barely more than a two-ton crossover and a couple of large luxury sedans. Size is not all that closely correlated with mileage.

[DainBramaged]

74. Yeah, what he said!!!

You've echoed what I've tried to get across here, SUV's aren't the only culprit, but smug wins sometimes here at DU. At least in the minds of those who believe SUV owners should die a fiery death instead of being able to choose.

Imagine the absurd, Ambulances are forced to become Little econoboxes, and patients are strapped in bubbles to the roof. The plumber comes to your house on a donkey, because the mileage firsters won. The UPS guy has to use laborers to pull a wagon, because large vehicles are illegal and the gas sippers can't pull shit.

Oh and god forbid you own a boat, camper, trailer of any kind. prepare to make them into planters 'cause nothing will be able to pull them any longer.

[Tesha]

85. Nobody's arguing against appropriate use of trucks.

Nobody's arguing against appropriate use of trucks.

But hauling one person's lazy ass to their white collar job
on the sunny, clear, well-paved roads of America at 15 MPH
in stop-and-go traffic is hardly an appropriate use for a
3- or 4-ton truck.

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

89. AHAHAHAHAH now you know you're ignored LOLOL

nice try whomever. Open wide for Chunky

[ileus]

73. I'll never fall into the SUV trap again.

No matter if petrol makes it back to 1.05, I promised myself that when I married a girl with a Durango in 2000 and it cost 325 bucks the first month we were married. We traded it the second month for a Alero.

[DainBramaged]

75. And then Oldsmobile tanked, good choice.

[osaMABUSh]

79. Many are keeping their SUVs because they can't rid of them

I heard that the trade-in or re-sale value of an SUV is lower than what many owe on the damn things so they are stuck with them.

Never had a desire for an SUV and never will - even when gas was $1.25.

My '91 Civic was the best purchase of my life. Bought it used five years ago for $2,500 cash with about 98k miles now it has 235k. The damn thing gets 40 MPG. Since the thing costs me relatively nothing to drive I went a little nuts recently and replaced the spark plugs, dist. cap, ignition wires, air filter, fuel filter, PCV, oxygen sensor, etc. I even removed the entire A/C since it wasn't working to lighten the car a bit. I'm trying to push the MPG over 40.

The car would probably run forever except I messed up and over-heated it several times with a leaky radiator and stuck throttle a few years ago. So it do use some oil now but not much gas! I did replace the rad and throttle wire and it runs great even if I have to add a qt now and again.

[Submariner]

86. I NEED my Tahoe so Bugger OFF

It has the 4WD and power that I NEED to drive out on the Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard beaches for surf fishing. The 2 dr Tahoe also has the room to hold all my fishing, diving, and beach gear. It is not a commuter vehicle, I take the T, but it is my getaway machine. An argument can be made to get a smaller 4WD and tough out the cramped feeling, however I don't have money for car payments and the Chevy is paid for. :popcorn:

[Tesha]

88. Maybe you shouldn't be driving on the beaches? (NT)

[Submariner]

91. Ever try to walk 20 miles in soft sand with 50 pounds of fishing gear?

Can't be done.

[Tesha]

94. Maybe you need to fish closer to home (or the parking lot).

By the way, I don't believe there's any beach on
Cape Cod, the Vineyard, or Nantucket that's "20 miles"
from a road. Most of those places aren't 10 miles across!

Tesha

[Submariner]

96. NOT 20 miles "from" the road

The drive from Race Point to Nauset is 40 miles of "beach driving", as in following the schools of blues or finding a tidal outlet where the stripers linger at night. Your obviously not familiar with surf fishing. On the Cape Cod National seashore, and Martha's Vineyard from north of Chappy to the west end of South Beach is about 30 miles of beach driving territory. Driving along the beach, not across it, without harming the dune grasses and nesting birds, has been the MO of surf fishing on the Cape since the automobile was invented.

Surf fishing is not done from a parking lot or near home (inside Boston Harbor). It is done in the surf of the seaward facing beaches or from the shore at Cape Cod Canal early and late in the striper season. It is a whole other world of salt water sport fishing that many do not indulge in, most like boats.