Chavez Says He May Seek 'Indefinite' Re-election

[ECH1969]

Venezuela President Hugo Chavez said he could seek "indefinite" re-election through a referendum if the opposition boycotts upcoming presidential elections.

Chavez made the remark late Friday, saying if the opposition pulls out of the Dec. 3 vote or makes false claims of electoral fraud to the Organization of American States, "I would call a national referendum to have the people decide if I can continue here indefinitely or if I have to go after six years in 2014."

Chavez, giving a speech in the central state of Lara, said he would ask the nation "if I can or cannot continue presenting my name" in subsequent elections.

Link

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. He's going...

Too far. I was afraid of that.

[ecoalex]

31. Fucking Faux news people,;another placed news story by shrubco

[ny_liberal]

125. It's actually an AP Wire (picked up by hundreds of newspapers)

See GoogleNews

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/07/content_4517327.htm

[Ken Burch]

209. The AP were disseminators of Reaganoid propaganda material

about Nicaragua in the 1980's and Chile in the 1970's. In both cases, the result was thousands of people being killed to put the rich back in power.

[cantstandbush]

55. No he isn't. It's their country not ours. If the people want him they

should be able to have him for as long as they want him. Remember FDR? Every "democracy" does not have to be exactly like USA. F off America!!!

[zann725]

152. Agreed! To quote Jon Stewart, "He (in this case Hugo) is no one's "monkey"

There's something about "Hugo" I like. Perhaps it's his clarity of vision where Shrubco goes. He's always 'head of the curve'with them. See's it coming...WAY ahead of time. Whoever's charge of HIS "intelligence gathering" could teach our guys a thing or two.

[Sgent]

170. Yep

and FDR stood for re-election every time.

[Joe Chi Minh]

229. Nope. He wouldn't have, if this lot's predecessors, the Morgan

and Mellon interests behind the fascist coup Smedley Butler put paid to, had had their way.

But what a shocking irony! What shocking hypocrisy! Chavez really is in the siege/war situation with which Bushco have been seeking to justify their shredding of the Constitution and arrogation of absolute despotic power. Hugo really does need to consolidate his power base, at the expense, not of democracy, since the masses are on his side 200%, but of the plutocratic monsters who have oppressed and murdered the people for so long - and that for the sake of his people and democracy.

With honest elections, the more prudently cautious move towards at least a mixed economy by the Chinese and the brutal sub-human move to a plutocratic kleptocracy in Russia, at the behest of the US and the UK, would be respectively rejected, out of hand, by the people in both countries, in favour of a return to Communism - sick as that is. And what does that tell us about the rampant systematised, open-ended greed that masquerades under the name of "capitalism".

[Exiled in America]

68. LOL let the Ven. people decide that - not you, or I.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

119. You really don't have a clue where he's going. Whatever he does,....

...you can count on him pissing off the NeoCon Junta.

[Ken Burch]

207. You're buying the propaganda bullshit. Please don't.

It's how the Reaganoids got one third of the Democratic caucus in the House to repeatedly vote for Contra aid. I assume you'll agree that the results of THAT were an abomination.

All Chavez is doing is not knuckling under to Bushie-instigated blackmail. Hugo has every right to keep running for reelection, especially if Republican senators and congressmembers have the right to do so indefintely and in rigged elections as well.

[Greeby]

2. Umm, consider the source

This is probably straight from the "some people say" department :puke:

[IndyOp]

4. Very good point Greeby. Thanks. (n/t)

:hi:

[ny_liberal]

127. CBS, ABC, NYTimes, LA Times all picked up the story

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1932342

[IndyOp]

143. And the fact that 'bad' stories about Chavez saturate the US media

so thoroughly while the basic facts -- that he won the last election in a landslide, fair and square -- go without consideration shows how locked in 'groupthink' mentality our media, government, and fellow citizens are.

:(

[Freddie Stubbs]

319. So, you're saying that it would be bad if it were true, but

that you don't believe that it is true?

[IndyOp]

323. I am focusing on my anger

that the US media only covers what they perceive to be bad. It may be true.

If Chavez puts his 'long term president' proposal up for a vote and voters bite - and if they have a way to change their mind in future - then so be it.

[paulk]

5. it's from associated press, not fox

ok, maybe not THAT much difference.

[Imperialism Inc.]

56. Which is no doubt exactly why he hid the source.

Let me know when a news agency reports it.

[Pavulon]

57. AP wire?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. And your point is.....??

[Pavulon]

70. AP

is not fox news. Fox syndicated an ap release...Thats my point.

Dismissing something because of the source does not validate or invalidate information.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

87. And you want to believe AP because.....??

[Pavulon]

96. I believe video tape, why dont you believe AP, global conspiracy?

he said it in front of thousands of people.

[scarletwoman]

99. Just curious, do you speak Spanish?

You know, so you can tell whether or not the corporate media translations are correct?

sw

[Pavulon]

102. Nope

But i am sure yahoo and the ap are colluding to pass this story off. I am sure that none of the millions of spanish speaking people here will catch a massive error..

By the way this is a corporate message board..scroll down.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

118. Oh, yes. More straw men than you can shake a stick at.

[Pavulon]

153. Topic>>Is Chaves going to install himself until 31?

Not cia, not osama, not hockey.

If you don't like the source, find more. Really.

That is the topic.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

280. What's your source? What's AP's source? You don't like the....

...responses? Too bad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

101. And you believe the translation? Since you believe in video....

...tape, do you believe that was really Osama in that one tape where he allegedly confesses to the attacks on 911?

[Pavulon]

104. No, I am sure

it was condi rice. I am sure the bbc reporter who taped him before he was famous made it all up too.

None of the tapes regarding embassy bombings, the cole, etc were real. Bill Clinton faked talking about him and the threat he posed. The FBI task force under clinton was just a paper ghost.

It was all bush and enron plotting to make money on a real estate deal.

At some point a cigar is just a cigar.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

115. At some point a straw man is just a straw man, and...

...you have lots of them, don't you?

[Judi Lynn]

103. Don't know if you saw this, posted at D.U. recently, but you might find it

interesting.

The Origins of the Overclass

By Steve Kangas

~snip~
The Media

Journalism is a perfect cover for CIA agents. People talk freely to journalists, and few think suspiciously of a journalist aggressively searching for information. Journalists also have power, influence and clout. Not surprisingly, the CIA began a mission in the late 1940s to recruit American journalists on a wide scale, a mission it dubbed Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The agency wanted these journalists not only to relay any sensitive information they discovered, but also to write anti-communist, pro-capitalist propaganda when needed.

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)

MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
William Paley (President, CBS)
Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)
Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
James Copley (Copley News Services)
Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
ABC
NBC
Associated Press
United Press International
Reuters
Hearst Newspapers
Scripps-Howard
Newsweek magazine
Mutual Broadcasting System
Miami Herald
Old Saturday Evening Post
New York Herald-Tribune
(snip)

http://www.aliveness.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html

[Pavulon]

105. I am sure the thousands of people and recording devices

present for the comments are all controlled by the CIA.

AP is thousands of people, all controlled by the CIA I presume.

Thus any news that does not fit an agenda can be dismissed.

[Judi Lynn]

106. That's not what my snip said. Sorry. n/t

[Pavulon]

107. No insult meant(nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

111. Straw man...and a poor one at that. Try again.

[Pavulon]

149. The thread is about chavez going until 31

not the cia. So the original post is strawman. It is a logical fallacy.

Point is it is on tape. Why argue the messenger if you don't like the message.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

281. And your point about the tape has been refuted. Repeatedly. If...

...you don't like the REAL message, move on.

[converted_democrat]

174. This is about term limits, not about Chavez becoming a life long

dictator..

[ulysses]

3. not good if true

but yeah, I'd like confirmation from someone other than Fox.

[unblock]

6. this is a FAUX NEWS DISTORTION. he's just talking about term limits

the question is if he is limited to two terms or if he can "continue presenting" his name in future elections.

he's just doing the same thing the reaganauts were talking about, repealing the two-term presidential limit so he could seek a third term.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. that's the problem

If one of the few leftist leaders in the hemisphere is in fact "just doing the same thing the reaganauts were talking about," that's troubling. Reagan and his goons are not role models for how to govern.

[unblock]

17. what, and fdr was evil?

talking about repealing term limits is nothing like the "president for life" that fox news is implying with their headline.

[northzax]

26. um, FDR was not limited by term limits

they were imposed after his death. Chavez, on the other hand, is limited to two terms, and this isn't some archaic rule, remember, he is the one that pushed for the rewriting of the Constitution after his election in 1999.

anyway, what's interesting about this threat, and it's one he's made before this speech, is that he is using it as a threat against his opponents in the next election. He's basically saying, 'look, if anyone contests the results of the election, I will push to change the constitution to punish you' that's an interesting threat.

[scarletwoman]

35. I think what he's really saying is that he KNOWS he'd have the votes

to do it. So if the opposition really wants a crack at winning taking over the presidency in the future, they ought to participate in the electoral system.

Chavez knows that if he brought a referendum to the people as to whether they want to change the term limit law so that he can run again, his numbers will be bigger than the opposition's numbers.

sw

[1932]

36. Reread the story. I don't think he's saying "if anyone contests the...

...election..."

He's saying "if you don't participate, this referendum might be on the ballot, so you better participate."

Does that sound undemocratic to you?

[northzax]

40. if you don't participate

or if you complain about the results to an outside authority. that's what he said. So he's saying, if you contest the results, or don't participate (so you can lose) I will use my personal popularity to change the brand new constitution.

Just out of curiosity, who counts the votes in Venezeula?

[1932]

42. You know that, just like the US, the Venezuelan constitution has a

mechanism for amending it, and Chavez hasn't threatened to do anything that isn't allowed by the constitution.

This is how the votes are counted: In the past, Venezuela has a had a problem where if the progressive candidate was doing well in the hand count, the count would slow down and then ballot boxes would disappear. So they have a system where you vote on an electronic machine that prints a paper ballot. You look at the paper ballot, and it's dropped into a box if you OK it, and it's destroyed if you don't. When the polls close, the electronic count is instantly wired to vote count central so you know the winner immediately. There's a fully auditable paper trail too, so you can double check.

That's how they did the last two elections and the audits confirmed the electronic count, IIUC. No honest person disputes the fact that recent Venezuelan election reflect the will of the people.

[scarletwoman]

43. "who counts the votes in Venezeula?" Jimmy Carter, for one.

Last election, there was a whole shitload of international observers who ALL certified it as a free and fair election.

Some of us have been paying attention to Venezuela and Chavez for many years now. There's a huge backstory of U.S. dirty tricks and financing the opposition.

It's important to understand that the U.S. corporate press never fails to look for opportunities to demonize Chavez. It's part of bushco's foreign policy agenda and the corporate press is happy to oblige.

If you've only relied on mainstream U.S. media and have never dug past the propaganda into the real story of the 2002 coup and all the other events that followed, you really won't have a very accurate picture of the Venezuelan political situation.

sw

[Toots]

146. Funny how things get distorted

I got something entirely different out of it. In a way it was a prod or punishment if you will but not in the way you said. He said ,at least my take is, that if he has no opposition, if no one will run against him why shouldn't he just keep running himself. He was telling them if they don't partake in the election he will just keep running until there is real opposition and real choice..:shrug:

[1932]

34. There's a constitutional process for removing term limits.

Chavez can't just do this. There's a three step process, and, the fact is, if it survives all three steps, it's clearly the democratic will of the people.

[WindRavenX]

7. even though the source is from FOX, this isn't good

Ah, fuck.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

14. the story has a AP byline

it's not FOX.

[anotherdrew]

25. and since when has the AP been a fair source on Chavez?

try: http://narconews.com/

[northzax]

27. he has made this statement before

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1901

let me guess, this is another bad translation?

[scarletwoman]

30. A referendum asking the people as to whether they would like him to RUN

again. As in being a CANDIDATE. He's contemplating asking his people if they would want him on the ballot again when his term is up.

That's not even a threat to run again, just a threat to put the question of running again to a vote of the people.

And if the citizens of Venezuela DO want to change the law so that he can run again after his term is up, is that necessarily a bad thing?

sw

[mogster]

271. Good point n/t

[1932]

37. The thing he asked for before was a non-binding referendum.

It wasn't even the first step in the constitutional process for amending the constitution, IIRC.

[scarletwoman]

39. I'm a long-time Chavez supporter, but not an uncritical one.

If he follows the Constitutional process for changing the term limit law, then I don't see a problem:

From the same venezuelanalysis article:

A Constitutional amendment changing this could happen if a majority of Venezuelans voted for it in a referendum.

The Second Vice president of the National Assembly, Roberto Hernández, said if nobody stands against Chavez in December’s Presidential elections the President will have the right to hold a referendum to serve another 6 years.

sw

[Media_Lies_Daily]

92. Good guess.

[converted_democrat]

176. I don't see what the problem is..

It's about repealing term limits, it's not about Chavez declaring himself dictator for life.. Their country is a democratic one, if it is the will of the people than they should do it..

[northzax]

248. then why bother with a constitution?

seriously, why bother?

[converted_democrat]

255. Their Constitution can be amended.. If the majority wants to do it,

it's their option..

"then why bother with a constitution?"

I don't "get" what you're getting at.. They have a democratically run country with better voting systems than we have. Why should they not be allowed to amend their constitution if that's what they want? We amend ours, why do you have a problem with them amending theirs?

[northzax]

261. if a constitution can be changed at the whim of the people

then it's a meaningless document. The whole point of a constitution is to provide rights to the minority, not to enshrine the whim of the majority. that's why is should be very hard to change a constitution. Imagine if, in October of 2001, George Bush proposed, seriously, amending the Constitution to allow for the torture and permanent imprisonment of anyone the President deemed a threat to national security. He probably would have won a national referendum on the topic. then what? just because 51% of Americans support something, it makes it ok?

imagine if George Washington had decided to run for a third term, how would our history have been different? He could have had anything he wanted, really, he probably could have been elected President for Life, and then what?

[scarletwoman]

274. Do you actually read what you write?

"if a constitution can be changed at the whim of the people"

What the hell do you think voting in a Democracy is about, anyway?

The Constitution of Venezuela was approved through a voter referendum in 1999, and includes a provision for a recall referendum on the president -- which is exactly what happened in 2004. Chavez won that vote by nearly 60%.

The Venezuelan Constitution also provides for amendment through referendum.

There is absolutely nothing in what Chavez is considering that is either unconstitutional or unlawful. If the people of Venezuela want to amend their constitution to do away with presidential term limits, it is perfectly lawful for them to do so.

If there IS a referendum, and their Constitution IS amended, all it would mean is that Chavez could run again in the regular presidential election. That's it. He'd either win the election or not. That's how democracy works.

It is THEIR Constitution. You seem to be confusing their sovereign right to govern themselves as they see fit with your own U.S.-centric idea of what a "Constitution" should look like. News flash: every democratic country has its own custom-made Constitution. Britain doesn't even have a written Constitution, but I'm willing to bet that you don't work yourself into a froth over THAT.

Get off your imperialist high horse and give a little credit to the ability of the Venezuelan people to chart their own course of sovereign self-government.

sw

[northzax]

309. no problem

if the Venezeulan people decide that what they want is Chavez as President for the next 30 years, that is their choice. but don't go claiming that it is a constitutional government at that point, because it isn't. If the people of Venezuela want to elect Chavez as a God, that is also their choice, but don't claim it's a constitutional democracy, because it isn't. If the people of Venezuela want to vote to allow Chavez to imprison all opponents of his government, that is also their choice, but it's not a constitutional government.

Venezuela is a cult of personality at this point, as many constitutions begin, it takes a strong leader to put the constitution above themselves, to say that the document, and the ideals enshrined therein, are more important than they are.

[scarletwoman]

312. So what you're saying is that NO constitution should EVER be amended.

You keep making an unfounded leap from a Constitutional amendment to overturn term limits with some sort of fantasy scenario wherein Chavez becomes president for life. Is it a reading comprehension problem?

IF the constitution is amended through a popular vote -- as is provided for by that very constitution -- to do away with term limits for the president, ALL it means is that his name will appear on the ballot in 2014. He would still have to actually win the election.

Will you please point out at which point in this process it ceases to be a "constitutional democracy"?

IF the citizens vote to amend their constitution -- untilyzing the process enshrined in their constitution for doing just that -- does THAT render their "constitutional democracy" null and void?

IF, having passed an amendment to their constitution by means of their constitutionally mandated process, Chavez is allowed to be on the ballot in the next presidential election -- does THAT render their "constitutional democracy" null and void?

IF, having passed an amendment to their constitution that allows Chavez to run for a 3rd term, and IF he is ultimately elected by popular vote to this constitutionally allowed 3rd term -- does THAT render their "constitutional democracy" null and void?

Sorry. The logic of your assertion escapes me.

sw

[northzax]

313. again, what's the point of a Constitution?

I keep asking, and you keep not answering.

What changes to the Constitution of Venezuela would you not support? what if Chavez annouced a referendum to imprison anyone not willing to swear a loyalty oath to him, and it passed, would that be acceptable? Answer that, or stop bothering. tell me what changes that Chavez, or another leader, might present to the people that would be unacceptable, if they were approved? I want three.

1:
2:
3:

Constitutions should be VERY HARD to change. Venezuela needs to decide if it is a cult of personality, if this is Chavez's constitution, or theirs. Will this be a government that lasts beyond Chavez, or one based on him?

[scarletwoman]

316. The point of a democratic constitution is to be a framework for government

for, of, and by the People.

Your hypothetical examples are nonsense. It is a constitutional act under the Venezuelan Constitution to bring constitutional amendments to a popular vote. A referendum on ONE particular constitutional amendment is ALL that is being proposed.

One can present all kinds of horrific hypotheticals for ANY constitutional democracy. What if we in the U.S. didn't have the constitutional means to pass the the Bill of Rights, or the 14th Amendment? What if we had had no means to overturn the 29th Amendment?

What if we had maintained the late 18th century status quo of allowing only white, male property owners to vote?

A democracy evolves as its citizens evolve. What you're really saying is that you have no faith in the ability of the Venezuelan people to act according to their best interests. That's really YOUR problem, not theirs.

sw

[northzax]

339. as I said above

if the people of Venezeula want to elect Chavez President for Life, and give him the right to behead his opponents, that's their problem, not mine.

I personally, am more concerned with institutions than leaders. lasting democratic regimes have the institutions of democracy, Venezuela doesn't have the institutions, only a charismatic leader. Chavez's great legacy could be to build those institutions in the state, a strong press, a strong and functional government, an independant military, universal education and healthcare, a strong and vibrant legislature, free and equal courts; these are the institutions that can help Venezuela remain a democracy (remember, there isn't that great of a history in Venezuela of peaceful transitions of power) I have no doubt that Chavez has what he perceives to be the best interests of his nation at heart, but as long as the government is one of personality, one that he holds together by sheer force of will and the adoration of the people, then it can not long survive after him. At some point, you have to stand by your documents (not changing them to suit your purposes) and say "look, I'd love to run again, but we all agreed that it wasn't a good idea for one man to have all that power. I encourage you all to look at the potential candidates and pick the one best suited to lead Venezuela into the future." and then step aside and become an elder statesman. That is how you build a country, trust the people to pick leaders to continue your policies.

Venezeula, for all the documents, is currently a cult of personality, people love Chavez (many of them for good reason, so I'm not critical of that) but for a leader to use his public popularity to threaten changes to the guiding documents of the country that would benefit him is a little strange, don't you think? Remember, he's not saying 'let's hold a referndum so that the NEXT president can stay in office longer" he's saying "let's hold a referendum so that I can stay in office longer" I would have no problem with the first, but I have major problems with the latter. In most countries, when there is a law passed that benefits individuals in the legislature or the executive, those benefits don't go into effect until after the next election. For instance, when they raise the salary of the President, it doesn't go into effect until there is a new President (not after an election, until there is a NEW person in the office. When the 22nd Amendment was ratified, it did not effect the President currently in office (Truman) although he didn't run for another term.

And to answer your last question, no, I don't trust a mob (and I use that word in the Hamiltonian sense) with a charismatic leader that asks for changes that benefit him, to make the right decision. Chavez could get almost anything he asks for in a referendum, does that mean he should?

[converted_democrat]

332. So, abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote basically

rendered our constitution meaningless? (Yes, that is sarcasm, but I think you get my point..)

[northzax]

333. no, but as you well know

it is very hard to change the US constitution, otherwise we'd already have an amendment banning gay marriage, allowing torture of 'terrorists' and rescinding the 4th amendment for the duration of the 'war on terror' and wouldn't that be wonderful?

[converted_democrat]

337. What is your problem with Chavez? This isn't the first thread that you've

made it your mission to wreck.. Why do you hate a man that is actually trying to do his best for his people? Is it because he's a socialist, is it because he doesn't try to hide the disgust he has for our country? What's the deal?


on edit- Do you really have a clue how ridiculous your earlier argument sounds? This is what a democracy is about.. If you're going to hate on Chavez, at least form arguments that are respectable..

[northzax]

340. because I find it amusing

to see the same unquestioning adoration of Chavez on this board as the Freepers have for Bush (and heck, even they complain sometimes) And because anytime I point out the hypocrisy, I am told that Chavez is "trying to do his best for his people" and therefore the same rules of scrutiny don't apply to him. And because when I point out his flaws (and since he's not a saint, I think he has some) I get nothing but jingoism in response.

so what's my problem? he's a demagogue, leading a cult of personality. Based on his actions, he isn't interested in building a lasting state in Venezuela, he's interested in increasing his influence in the region. The government of Venezuela is HIM. And because he has the support of the street, he can pull it off. But what happens when he is gone? What happens when the people realize that PDVSA has been looted? (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2225867&mesg_id=2227024) what happens when he isn't around to keep the government together? has he built the structures to enable a easy succession, or will he be another one-hit wonder pseudo-dictator?

[converted_democrat]

342. Do you have proof of what you're alleging, or is this something you

feel in your gut?

"so what's my problem? he's a demagogue, leading a cult of personality."

That's your opinion of the situation.. I find him to be very charismatic and vivacious leader that takes no shit from anyone, including but not limited to the US..

"Based on his actions, he isn't interested in building a lasting state in Venezuela, he's interested in increasing his influence in the region."

Than why is he reinvesting the revenue back into the country? Why is he working on education initiatives, to educate his nation? What about the health care he's making available? Chavez was elected to care for his nation, and the people of his nation.. From what I see, that's exactly what he's doing..

[scarletwoman]

28. Thank you for pointing that out .

I also like: Venezuelanalysis and V-Headline

sw

[paulk]

54. what does that have to do with anything?

I'm simply pointing out that the article has an AP byline, which the poster I responded to failed to note in her attack on another poster.

feeling defensive?

why?

[scarletwoman]

61. Attack?! That's rich. Now, would you like an explanation?

I refuse to click on Fox links, as I explained in my reply #24 to the deleted post.

When I first clicked on "reply" to the OP, there were only 2 other posts on this thread, and no post about it being an AP story also. I did not see that information (because I won't click on Fox links) until after I posted.

You apparently are unaware of the years-long history of disinformation about Chavez routinely published in the corporate U.S. media, or you would understand.

sw

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

24. Oh well, pardon me all to pieces then.

Sorry, I'm an old-timer who has spent very little time here in past couple years or so. Used to be, people were careful to find sources other than Fox (or Newsmax, Drudge, and such) if they wanted to post a news story, or at least offered an explanation as to why they couldn't find it elsewhere and labeled the source clearly.

Part of the idea was to not sent hits over to their website(s) -- you know, why help them boost their numbers? Kinda like a boycott, you see.

Another part was, why use space on DU as a platform for right wing disinformation by putting up a post title that would hang on the opening page of a forum for hours or possibly days? Just seemed counterproductive to getting our *own* message out, ya know.

Visiting here so infrequently anymore, I was not aware that the community standards had changed.

This place was my "home" for over 3 years solid. I guess I still have an urge to keep the front stoop swept clean of debris, crazy old woman that I am.

[Karenina]

44. Great to see ya, Scarletwoman!

:loveya:

[scarletwoman]

47. Heh, heh. Great to see you too!

:loveya: back atcha. Sheesh, I jump into one thread and the first reply I get (the deleted post above) I get called an insulting name. REALLY glad to see an old friend!

You still hang around here much?

:hug:
sw

[Karenina]

64. Lurk-a-lot...

but VERY circumspect when posting. There are some basic issues that get steamrollered by the sheer volume of posters who come from "wherever they are" which is far behind where we were years ago. (Never mind the flotsam and jetsam ;-)) We do, dearest one, live in "interesting times."

[cleofus1]

204. here here!

or is that hear hear!

[Jayhawk Lib]

9. This does not surprise me one bit...

I have been very skeptical of him from the start. I hope I am wrong but nothing about him has changed my gut feeling in the least.

[converted_democrat]

178. "This does not surprise me one bit..."

What's that supposed to mean? This isn't about Chavez declaring himself dictator for life, it's a bout repealing term limits.. The country is democratic, and they have a better system than we do.. If it's the will of the people to repeal term limits, than why shouldn't they do it?

[Jayhawk Lib]

220. I do not trust Chavez.

I get very strong feelings that Chavez is about Chavez and not the Venezuelan people. He is a snake in the grass...No proof...just my gut feeling.

[converted_democrat]

230. Well, the vast majority of his country love him, and I would bet they

have a better understanding of the situation than we do.. He's invested a bunch of the oil revenue into making life better for the people of his country, I don't see what's so bad about that..

[Jayhawk Lib]

237. He's invested a bunch of the oil revenue

into making life better for the people of his country???? Is that a fact???? Believe it if you wish.... I have seen no sign of it.

Also remember that Bush and the Republican house and senate were elected by the majority here but that does not in itself make the Repugs good.

My gut feeling sends up red flags about him.

[killbotfactory]

246. See post 167

There is a reason why the poverty rate is declining.

[Jayhawk Lib]

259. Read post 148...nt

[converted_democrat]

344. And what is #148 supposed to prove? It isn't sourced, and it's one

persons opinion.. Did you put down the wrong post #, or is your position so weak that it's all you have?

[Jayhawk Lib]

351. It proves as much as 167 does.

Time to put an end to this. Just remember my feelings about Chavez and we will see how things play out.

I never said I had evidence it is just my gut feeling which has served me well over the years.

[converted_democrat]

356. 167 is sourced info, yours is not.. You got nothing..

I'd want to "end this" too if I were you, you're not fairing very well in this debate..

And from the earlier discussion, how could you not know that Gore won FL? He won FL by 10,000 to 20,000 votes, but the vote count was stopped and * was installed by the Supreme Court.. If FL's electoral votes had gone to Gore like they rightfully should have, he would have won both vote counts, popular and electoral.. Gore did win the 2,000 election, but * was installed instead.. (Your "gut" was way off on that one too.)

[Jayhawk Lib]

359. You win...Gore won and

I still do not trust Chavez

[converted_democrat]

367. It's not about winning, it's about setting the record straight..

Making assertions one can't back up, and "opinions" based on gut feelings don't get many very far.. Ask Bush..

[mogster]

272. Were they?

Do you believe the 2000 election to be fair, then? Not to mention the 2004 election...

[Jayhawk Lib]

314. Yes I do....

I know this goes against the grain here but 2000 was damn close and our people could not prove our candidate won. Our candidate in 2000 (Al Gore) did not even come close in his own home state. In 2004 John Kerry was, of all things, trying to fight Viet Nam, did not run on the current issues that were really important.

Let the flames begin but we lost the last 2 presidential elections. In this next election cycle we need to work harder to get our message out and the vote count will not even be close..

I do not trust Chavez but he did win in Venezuela

[converted_democrat]

349. Uh, Gore did win in 2000.. Fact..

He won in FL. by 10,000 to 20,000 votes.. (I forget the exact #) He did win the election.. * was installed by the Supreme Court.. If the ballots had been counted, instead of * simply being installed, Gore would have been our president.. There is a great article about in Harpers Magazine.. Gore won by a decent margin, they just used court tricks to keep the votes from being counted.. Google it, you'll see I'm right..

[Jayhawk Lib]

350. Won the popular but not the electoral...

the electoral is what matters in our constitution...

[converted_democrat]

355. Wrong again..

Gore won FL by 10,000 to 20,000 votes.. FL's electoral votes should have gone to Gore, which would have put him over the top.. Instead, the vote count was stopped, and * was installed by the Supreme Court..


on edit- You are correct that Gore won the popular vote, but he had 10,000 to 20,000 more votes than * in FL, and FL electoral votes should have gone to Gore.. If FL votes had gone to Gore like they should have, Gore would have won both the popular vote and the Electoral College..

[Jayhawk Lib]

360. I salute President Gore. Kerry won also.

[converted_democrat]

365. I didn't say Kerry won, but Gore did..

You need to find better sources for information than your gut.. Gore won, and the election was stolen from him.. Is that really so hard to grasp?

[Joe Chi Minh]

252. That Bush gut feeling , eh...? Those quintillion nerve endings

in the gut. Did you ever speak with Steve Colbert before his comedy turn the other night?

[Vidar]

10. I'm glad this is just Fox distorion & not lifewt-time prez. Viva Chavez.

[Mr.Green93]

12. To bad we have term limits

a third fourth and fifth Bill Clinton Presidency would have been fine.

[Mojorabbit]

78. by this logic

we could have another term of *. Aaack! LOL I'd rather have term limits.

[The Wielding Truth]

247. BushCo. might have that figured out.

He'll decide to ignore term limits in his next Signing Statement.Why not? If he feels it is beneficial to the Executive office he'll make it #751.

[Bill McBlueState]

13. since this is AP

It should show up on sites other than Fox. It would be nice if you could find such a link.

[Faygo Kid]

16. And Bush isn't likely to say this? Really?

I will withhold judgment on Chavez, but I am not that great an admirer anyway. Our own faux president is likely to pull this, though.

[Pavulon]

21. no he will not..Bush is gone in 08.

[Faygo Kid]

22. I am not so sanguine.

A well timed "terrorist attack," a declaration of martial law, and poof. Not saying it's likely to happen, but it's possible. More likely is a completely corrupt election. A lot depends on the 2006 elections, and whether we can overcome the inevitable election fraud and the October surprise.

[Pavulon]

29. wouldn't count on it...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

108. And you know this because....??

[Pavulon]

109. 200+ years of history is on my side, just be sure to vote in Nov.(nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

123. America's democratic history stopped in December 2000.....

...you weren't including the last 5.5 years in your "history", were you?

[Pavulon]

156. Sorry I don't buy into that

one. It is a convenient issue that allows people to ignore the facts relevant to electing democrats. Rehashing campaign mistakes in this thread is pointless. Start one and I will be glad to carry on there.

Vote in November, if we run a strong platform and win, that is a major step. That is the reality.

Just like a prospectus, you post contained forward looking statements, ie you are guessing about what is going to happen.

You taking odds on bush staying in office after 08?

[RDU Socialist]

232. i've noticed that claiming theft of every election

allows the lazy among us on the left to feel better about the fact they don't do anything to help get Democrats elected. "Oh what's the point, they're stealing elections!" "If we expose their theft of elections, it should be easier." Crap like this allows the "passivists" among the leftist activist corps to lie themselves into believing that they're also helping promote the left side of the political ideology.

it's like the idea of simply running an excellent campaign with ideas instead of empty platitudes like John Kerry ran in 2004 (thanks to Bob Shrum, who is the single worst person in the history of the Democratic Party, and I'm including John C. Calhoun and Jefferson Davis) is too much work for them so they'll whine and moan about Diebold.

then they'll make idiotic spreadsheets and calculations looking like something John Nash came up with to prove their point and it ends up being absolute horseshit.

[Name removed]

282. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

327. Sounds like you support the NeoCon point of view on this issue....

...claiming that Kerry ran a bad campaign simply ignores that fact that we've seen massive election fraud perpetrated by the NeoCons in the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections.

Your claim that nothing of the sort happened is duly noted.

[Orsino]

243. * is a symptom, not the disease.

He has, however, set a precedent for future would-be imperial presidents. I think that whoever replaces him is likely to use him as an excuse for further abuses.

No one deserves un limited terms, or twenty-five-year terms, not even Chavez. If there's any truth to the story, I don't think DU has any business applauding the idea, "will of the people" or not.

[eallen]

308. Exactly right. On both counts.

[bahrbearian]

18. Chavez better not give Chimpy any ideas,

We know Chimpy can't come up with his own.

[dipsydoodle]

19. If Fux did do that maliciously

then they are guilty of creating news. They are there to report news : not to create it.

[Pavulon]

20. This is Exactly

why democrats here should not concern themselves with "progressives" in red shirts.

The focus is getting democrats elected HERE and fixing problems HERE not the business of future dictators abroad.

I will eat crow if this guy gives up power at the end of his term.

Bottom line, Bush is gone in 08, this guy is not making any promises..

[VirginiaDem]

150. I'm with you.

You're not alone. There are people here skeptical enough and aware enough of Latin American history pre-Chavez, pre- Cold War, pre-Teddy Roosevelt, and so on, to recognize (at the least) a potential dictator, left or right.

Skeptics have predicted exactly this event -- congress packing leading to constitution fixing, leading to indefinite rule by Chavez -- from the beginning. Not because we're beholden to the "media whores" but rather we're aware that this exact behavior has occured left and right throughout Latin America since there has been a "Latin America".

Have these been democratically-elected changes? Yes. Does that make them more legitimate? Yes, up to the point of indefinite rule. Does it make them somehow historically different. Nope, not really. Iffy constitutional change is the norm in Latin America -- most countries have been through several if not dozens of constitutions during their existences.

If what Chavez is doing is so important then another member of his party should be perfectly capable of getting it done after Chavez. If Chavez himself is necessary then so are a truckload of rationalizations.

[Ken Burch]

213. So you'll end up backing the Venezuelan Contras

as soon as Dubya finds more than a handful of Venezuelans who actually want to overthrow Chavez.

Be careful what you ask for. If Chavez goes out, Venezuela once again ceases to be an independent country and the poor are stripped of whatever they have. There is no possibility of a progressive or humane antichavista Venezuela. It ends up being reduced to what Nicaragua is like now. Forever.

[VirginiaDem]

250. No I wouldn't back that. n/t

[Ken Burch]

264. I hope not.

But everyone needs to remember what happens when Republican presidents start talking about "democracy" in Latin America.

[VirginiaDem]

275. Yeah, yeah, yeah

I'm down with all that but to be honest I think the truth is somewhere in between what is represented here in DU generally and what is represented by the administration and I think the whole deal is fascinating.

Yes, he's elected; yes, most of his controversial changes were democratically approved; yes, his efforts to build and enhance a safety net for the poor are necessary; yes, he's a nationalist; yes, he's a populist; yes, he's a typical Latin American head of state who wants nothing more than to stay in power; yes, he has benefited enormously from high gas prices, making him somewhere in between a Bolivarian saviour and a Kuwaiti emir. Yes, he often sounds like the crackpot leader in Woody Allen's Bananas. And so on.

Just because I don't trust the guy doesn't mean that I trust the administration.

[rman]

329. Awareness of pre-Chavez Latin American history makes one understand

Chavez is the first progressive popular leader in Venezuela after a long time of rule by US-backed RW regimes.

[JWS]

23. For a leader

Who likes to give hours long nationalistic speeches this doesn't come as much of a surprise. The man is a demagogue, this is just the next logical step.

[1932]

32. Folks, he's saying this because he wants the opposition to participate

in the election so that he can win his final term and not deal with claims of illegitimacy. He's saying, it seems, that he'll try to put the referdum on the ballot at the same time so that the opposition can't stay home.

[jseankil]

73. It's there right to boycott, fuck him! /nm

nm

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

164. And Chavez has the right to respond like that, so what's your point? -nt

[Judi Lynn]

33. Too many rightwingers don't take the time to comprehend the material

right before their eyes.

Going back to the article:

Venezuela President Hugo Chavez said he could seek "indefinite" re-election through a referendum if the opposition boycotts upcoming presidential elections.

DU'ers who keep up remember that before the last election, the opposition started organizing well before the election date to BOYCOTT that one, knowing they were going to lose serious ground. Everyone knew they were going to take it in the shorts, and they backed out altogether to allow the propaganda to work, instead. They BOYCOTTED, they DIDN'T LOSE, was the perception they wanted to project.

Chavez is encouraging them to go ahead and take their chances this time, and run their candidates. He's pushing them to take part in the election.

What's not to understand?

[1932]

38. Exactly.

It's amazing how easy it is for a spark of misrepresention to get fanned with "I knew this would happen" and "just goes to show you" nonsense so that it turns in to a wildfire of stupidity.

Thanks for turning the hose of commonsense and a close reading on this thread.

[ronnie624]

130. LOL. The "hose of commonsense".

Very good.

Those who choose to misinform are no match for a certain poster who is well known for her skills in research and analysis.

[Pavulon]

41. I don't understand

why any democrat in the US should take a favorable position on a leader who is questionable at best. At worst a communist dictator in the making.

The party is not the world left movement, its goal is to get elected here. Dealing with this guy gets us nothing and is a bat waiting to be swung. Communist in control of x% of world oil supply supported by x democrat. Bad news.

He is saying he will not step down if they don't do what he wants. He is not saying he will give up power.

Sorry, the truth hurts.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

49. Price of tea in china

Want to elect candidates,

Gas price
minimum wage
poor war planning
etc


This pseudo dictator is irrelevant to the US. If he did not have oil reserve no one would care.

I still don't care.

Give me a break with the fascist crap. You voted, I voted, I will vote in november.

I have not had ONE incident since 2000 that I would refer to as fascist.

Bad government is different thing.

No one is kicking down your door to send you to re-education for your views. Mine either.

That word is over used.

edit grammar

[Pavulon]

51. Deleted message?

referred to global fascist rule imposed on workers in Venezuela and here.

Just so my post makes sense..

Was not insulted by content 1932. was not rude to me.

[1932]

145. yeah. that was a pretty good post. I cant figure out why it was deleted.

You can't fight fasicsm at home without fighting it abroad.

Just look at who financed the reign of the current government: the oil companies who want to concentrate wealth in their hands by denying the people of venezuela their share.

To think that it doesn't help Americans to allow nations abroad to fairly benefit from their citizen's labor and their natural resources is so obviously wrong. The last 6 years proves that to be the case.

[Warren Stupidity]

321. Well at least your red baiting bullshit is out in the open.

Chavez is not a communist, nor is he a dictator, nor is the democratic process in venezuela corrupt. Thanks for making your position perfectly clear.

Many of us here are very concerned that yet another oil rich independent nation may be threatened by our neocon fascists. The Bush administration has already tried twice to push Chavez out of power, once in an aborted CIA backed coup, once in a pathetic attempt to recreate a 'pot banger' middle class revolt like the one that the CIA cooked up Chile before the military coup there.

"He is saying he will not step down if they don't do what he wants. He is not saying he will give up power."

No what he said is that he will put a referendum on the ballot abolishing term limits if the opposition continues to boycott elections and claim that they are rigged. If Chavez loses an election and doesn't step down, or if he changes the constitution outside of the constitutional process for doing so, then you might have a point. Currently you are just foaming rightwing nonsense.

[rman]

326. The Dem party isn't exactly supporting Chavez, many progressive dem voters

are though.
Chavez is not a communist nor a dictator - not in the making or otherwise.

There's no substance to your claim that he is "questionable at best".

He is not saying he will not step down.
He is proposing a referendum on extension of term limits only under the condition of election boycot by the opposition.
That's what he's actually saying, the rest is RW spin.

[liquiduniverse]

46. Shouldn't they have the right to boycott?

I doubt they are required by law to participate in an election. What happens if they go ahead with the boycott? If what Chavez is alleged to have said is true, then at the very least I would say he's being reckless with laws of his country.

[1932]

48. Chavez is goading the opposition into participating in an election.

He's not REQUIRING them to participate. People can do what the want to do.

And, by the way, the referendum process actually is part of the law of the country.

[Pavulon]

50. So if the pubs

used constitutional rules to force the democrats into a one party one ruler state thats cool?

Red shirt is a dead give away..

[1932]

65. I really don't understand the analogy.

Care to draw that out a littel better?

No term limits, by the way, doesn't mean no elections.

[Pavulon]

69. Ok

Suppose a majority follows the steps needed to amend the constitution to allow a president to continue in office for ever. Change voting laws. Use your imagination.

The Venezuelan constitution was clear, 2 terms.

[scarletwoman]

71. You do not have your "facts" straight.

The Venezuelan Constitution provides for an amendment process through voter referendum. If the citizens of Venezuela choose to amend their Constitution, they have a perfectly legal right to do so, and their will is expressed through the referendum.

The hypothetical amendment being discussed is one to allow the president to STAND FOR ELECTION for more than two terms.

If such a referendum is held, and the voters choose to amend their Constitution, what it would allow is for Chavez to be a CANDIDATE in the next presidential election. It is NOT the installation of a "president-for-life". He would still have to actually win that next election in order to remain president.

This shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend, it's simple democracy.

sw

[Pavulon]

75. Thats cool

saddam got 99 percent. Maybe some mullahs would help out down there. Honestly I could care less about tinpots in red shirts. Has nothing to do with getting democrats in office HERE.

If he had no oil, no one would care. As I have said, I don't care. I do think it is funny when people slobber over the guy expecting him to be a progressive godsend.

Viva chavez viva fidel viva stalin.. Has nothing to do with putting D's in office.

[scarletwoman]

81. If you don't find the political dynamics in Latin America relevent,

why did you bother to chime in on this thread? You quite obviously have no grasp of the actual facts of the matter.

sw

[Pavulon]

83. Um

really simple. Wants to be president for more than two terms. Vote communist once and never have to vote again..

I think it is funny, because I don't care. Whatever he does has no bearing on electing democrats.

"I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031," he said.

How do you spin that? Really.

He will be thrown out or his military will kill him long before 31, thats how things have been done in SA for decades..

[1932]

117. I think Chavez wants to run again because he knows

that the military WON'T kill him, and that he can make the changes to his society that reverse the trend towards poverty caused by neoliberalism. And I think people like you know that that's true and that's why people like you try so hard to misrepresent the facts about Venezuela.

[Pavulon]

158. What have I said that is not true?

I have nothing against his policy. If the people want a communist fine. However the constitution is clear. He can back a candidate who supports his ideas. That is what the pubs will do. Guiliani for instance. Point is bush is out in 08.

Chavez may choose to stay in office until 31. That invalidates their constitution.

[1932]

173. That he's a communist? Communist believe in centrally controlled

economies and state ownership of the means of produciton.

The only industry MVR wants to nationalize is the one that was nationalized when they won the presidency -- the "brains" behind the oil industry. They have partnered to create a few companies which will ultimately be owned by the workers, but that's not communism (and it won't even be socialism once they withdraw from the partnerships).

When Chavez was a kid, he sold cakes that his grandmother made to other kids at his school. He's not a communist. He believes in entrepreneurialism and that socialism is way towards creating functioning economies.

I don't understand the point you're trying to illustrate by referring to Rudy G.

Care to try again?

And one more time, Chavez would have WIN ELECTIONS to be president. What's your point about '31. Please explain that one too.

[Pavulon]

175. Transition of Power

makes a democracy. A leader or party can choose a new person to carry the flag. IE pubs and Rudy G. or who ever they choose when bush LEAVES.

A leader who refuses to follow the constitution and stays in office is not a democracy. Elected or not. That is something else.

The whole Red shirt nationalism and che wanna be presence is just icing on the cake. He is a socialist.

Do I care no. Have I done business in china, sure. Do they all share the love of money and power, same as here. Yep.

[1932]

182. Psst. Elections. (Terms limits are not inherent part of democracy.)

I'll still don't understand your point about Rudy. If he continues the border-line fascistic policies of the Bush administration (which I'm sure he would) what does it matter whether it's a different face, same bad policies (think Reagan-Bush I - Bush II)?

The best thing we can do for democracy is to keep electing the most progressive person running, even if that means voting Chavez into office five times in a row.

[Pavulon]

186. So you think

transition of power is not needed? I do. Even if another idiot is elected, it removes the previous person, and allows the new person to act how they say fit.

Let me be clear. If you are Venezuelan you are free to vote for chavez. If you are an american you are backing a foreign politician without the full understanding of the country. If you are american chavez has zero impact on the reality of us elections. No beneficial impact, that is.

I do not claim to have a complete grasp of Venezuelan politics and socio-economic life.

I understand us progressives in out context, I do not know what chavez is all about. But saying he wants to stay in office until 31 gives me a hint.

[1932]

233. "I do not grasp"..."I do not know" Why are people with such firmly held

opinions the people who confess to knowing the least (or, if they won't confess to being uninformed, they reveal how little they know in their posts)?

It's great that you admit that you don't really know what's going on, but why are you so passionate about posting your uninformed opinions over and over again???

It would be a much better forum for discussion if people who didn't know anything went out and got informed before they decided they needed to respond to every single post.

[Bridget Burke]

346. We heard "transition of power" a lot in 2000/2001.

The news commentators spoke highly of "peaceful transfer of power" as Bush's motorcade moved through the gloomy streets of DC so he could be sworn in to the office that the Supreme Court handed him.

Chavez is threatening to become long-term president in order to convince other parties to take part in elections. I'm sure they would rather sulk & plot revolution.

Many of us know more about Venezuela than you do.

"us progressives" ?

[1932]

113. That's C- work. That's a very weak argument you're making.

Points to address in you're revised draft of your argument:

1) I repeat: THEY'RE NOT SUSPENDING ELECTIONS. They're talking about removing term limits.

2) Was the US constitution very clear on NO term limits for presidents when it was amended to creat term limits? Ie, yes, indeed, constitutions can and do provide mechanisms for amendment to remove or implement term limits, and, when you use those mechanisms, you are, in fact, behaving constitutionally.

[Pavulon]

160. Ok so

if our constitution is amended, democratically, to ban gays from marriage, outlaw abortion and leave bush in office until 31 that is ok?

I disagree. The most important thing in a democracy is TRANSITION of power. When that stops you do not have a democracy.

[1932]

236. So everything is going to be hunky dory if some Republican wins in '08

just because it's not Bush? And FDR dying was the thing that saved democracy in the US?

Whatever.

[NorthernSun]

52. Democracy is dangerous to the Bush Crime Family

If the Venezuelan people want to amend their constitution to let him run, more power to them. It's their oil, not Eliot Abrams ot Otto Riech's.

[anotherdrew]

59. boycotting an election is as hostile to democracy as anything.

it never helps anything and is a direct attack on the form of government. telling people to Boycott an election is far more corrosive than what chavez actually said. read the damn text, he's not talking about becoming president for life for god's sake, yet that is EXACTLY what that headline would make anyone suppose. It's a LIE of a headline.

[rman]

331. Sure but it makes elections near pointless

Which is why Chavez is giving the opposition an incentive not to boycot elections.

Chavez proposes a referendum on extension of term limits only under the condition of election boycot by the opposition.

If a majority doesn't like it, it won't happen. If it does happen Chavez can still be voted out of office. If the opposition does not boycot the elections they have a chance of being elected.

[Selatius]

53. The Venezuelan Constitution is clear on the point: ONLY two terms

If Chavez wants to get the opposition to actually run, then he shouldn't use term limits as a weapon, IMHO.

Fear of the government is a well-founded fear, indeed. An elected legislature can just as easily trample the rights of any individual just as any dictator can.

Although I agree with Chavez with respect to fighting poverty, investing in education and health care, rebuilding infrastructure, and redistributing wealth to help the poor, I am weary in general be they state democratic socialists or state socialists of the authoritarian kind.

The state, ideally, should serve the interests of the people, but the people must not also become totally dependent upon the state, and the people should make sure that the servant that is the government should be a servant in chains.

[converted_democrat]

181. "The Venezuelan Constitution is clear on the point: ONLY two terms"

Their country is a democratic one, if they choose to repeal term limits than I don't see what the problem is. If the people vote for it, and want it, why shouldn't they be able to have it?

[Judi Lynn]

58. Chávez Leads, Many Undecided in Venezuela

Chávez Leads, Many Undecided in Venezuela
May 6, 2006

(Angus Reid Global Scan) – Hugo Chávez remains the early favourite in Venezuela’s presidential race, according to a poll by Hinterlaces. 38 per cent of respondents would vote for the incumbent in this year’s election.

Julio Andrés Borges of Justice First (PJ) is second with nine per cent, followed by Zulia governor Manuel Rosales with seven per cent, former planning minister Teodoro Petkoff with five per cent, and former minister Roberto Smith with one per cent. Four-in-ten respondents either remain undecided, or will not take part in the ballot scheduled for Dec. 3.

Chávez has been in office since February 1999. In July 2000, he was elected to a six-year term with 59.5 per cent of all cast ballots. In August 2004, Chávez won a referendum on his tenure with 59 per cent of the vote. The special election was called after opposition organizations in Venezuela gathered 2.5 million signatures to force a recall ballot.
(snip/...)

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/11775

[Selatius]

60. I'd say this: Do they do exit polls in China? n/t

[converted_democrat]

183. What on Earth are you talking about? They have a better voting system

than we do, with a paper trail.. What are you trying to imply?


on edit- For the more dense among us, I'd like to clarify that I'm referring to Venezuela..

[Pavulon]

188. in CHINA?

China is a communist state. They jail people for posting on the internet.

I have been there, I can vouch for the fact that their "system" is not better, for most people that is.

They do operate just like SA, hire a local company to do what ever they do to make things happen.

It is funny how similar the systems are.

[converted_democrat]

190. I was obviously referring to Venezuela.. Are you really trying to

imply that Venezuela is on par to China?

[Pavulon]

197. customs wise and business wise, yep

In china to do business you have to partner with a local (aka) government firm. The government controls your partner. SO if you want to machine parts you can't just incorporate and go.

Venezuela is moving in that direction. Just hydrocarbons and agriculture now but the course is set. The government is poking into private sector.

You can still do business in a socialist state just more hands sticking out. You don't have to hire a us firm or german firm to make sure your tooling equipment does not get lost or held up for 6 months when doing business there.

Like I said I don't really care about the government when I travel. Some places are more of a pain in the ass to do business in.

Poor bolivia is just fucked. Since they are land locked they have to sell their state run gas to their neighbors to export it. So they don't get much in return. Except for the fact that no company will invest capitol in a county who just seized assets.

[converted_democrat]

200. You implied that politically China and Venezuela are on par, and that's

total bullshit..

"I'd say this: Do they do exit polls in China?"

What a joke.. I don't understand why it's hard for people to be honest about the situation..

[Pavulon]

206. No some poster

said something about exit polls. That made no sense. I noted that doing business in socialist countries is pretty much the same everywhere.

[converted_democrat]

212. Go spread the BS somewhere else..

Quit trying to back out of what you stated.. You made the implication that exit polling in Venezuela was on par to China.. By your own account China is communist, and Venezuela is socialist.. Again, I ask, why not be honest about the situation?

[Pavulon]

218. Post # Please? Put your knives down.

Selious or who ever made the post.

I made no such assertion. I spoke about CUSTOMS (IMPORT/EXPORT) not voting. I have never voted in either nation.

I mentioned that china jails people for dissent. I mentioned that the systems (socialism/communism) were similar in context of doing business. That is all I have posted about in this thread.

If that was unclear, my fault.

I have done business in both nations. Some other poster mentioned polling, how the hell would I know, or the other poster for that matter, about how they vote.

READ BEFORE YOU POST.

EDIT : CLARITY

[converted_democrat]

219. Post #60 in response to #58..

"I'd say this: Do they do exit polls in China?"

[Pavulon]

222. Fur fur fur fa furr(price is wrong)

One is not me the other says NOTHING about exit polls.

READ THE POSTS.

[converted_democrat]

227. I mistook you for the other poster.

I apoligize for the mistake.. I just assumed that I was carrying on the conversation with the same person..

[Pavulon]

231. No problem, You seem like a nice guy/gal

I take no offense. People are really cool here. Just because we don't see eye to eye does not mean I have no respect for your position or do not care about the people effected.

Sorry if I was shitty.

I have seen sad things in my travels, the less of that in the world the better. I am sure we both agree on that.

I really have to skip now or my wife and kids will put me in a human rights watch article.

My nic Pavulon is a paralyzing agent they use in trauma. My wife threatens to spike me when I am not looking so she can get a word in. It stops you from moving but you can still comprehend what is going on around you.

Later

[brentspeak]

62. Doesn't matter if the opposition boycotts the next elections

That's still no excuse to declare oneself Eternal Ruler. All Chavez has to do is simply step down -- his responsibility per the Venezuelan constitution -- and give up his position to someone else. Not too difficult...unless you're a dictator-in-the-making.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

194. Do you seriously believe that

Doing away with term limits = declaring oneself Eternal Ruler?

[bluestateguy]

63. For a moment there I was concerned

then I saw that this was a FOX story, and I declined to read it or take it seriously.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. Fox News. Case dismissed. Next.

[ny_liberal]

128. CBS, ABC, NYTimes, LA Times all picked up the story

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1932342

[Zhade]

72. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

FOX NEWS?

You should have used the url itself - people might think a LEGITIMATE source claims this!

:rofl:

Man, Faux will say ANYTHING, won't they?

[Tiggeroshii]

74. actually

An AP source is cited by fox by the article.

[Pavulon]

76. Even the enquirer gets it right some times..

it is unwise to dismiss data because of the source, and a logical fallacy..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. Ever hear of Operation Mockingbird? Did you know that's an....

...ongoing operation?

Your problem is that you would have us believe something coming from a source that is part of the captive MSM. What's logical about that?

[Pavulon]

94. Me, you mean personally

I don't care if you believe babies are born from moms tummy.

You are an adult, i presume, so you can judge the quality of the information that is out there. I am sure that there is a video recording of said event. But the MSM faked it too?

Come on, the story is accurate. I mean you didn't see this coming.

now from two sources.

It is as relevant as the duke rape case to 06 elections however.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

124. Two "sources"? Right. Keep on believing that. You've already.....

...admitted that you don't understand Spanish...how would you know if an English translation of what Chavez said is accurate or not?

But keep on posting...your comments are becomning a big source of amusement in this thread.

[Pavulon]

151. You speak every language spoken in the world?

yea? So unless you speak Mandarin chinese how can you believe the news from china, canton region is off limits unless you speak it too. Farsi? Hebrew?

You see where I am going.

Pick your sources. If you think the speech is mis interpreted ask a spanish speaking person. The beauty of the web is that you can post the transcript and ask someone if the interpretation is correct.

To deny all foreign news because of your non-fluency in the language does not make sense.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

284. Hey, you're the one choosing to believe the translation of a video....

...that you can't translate yourself.

Now, who's losing focus?

[Mountainman]

77. Bush can't get his hands on Venezuela petro dollars that's why we have

the bash Chavez meme according to Greg Palast's new book about to be coming out. I heard hin on KPFK the other night.

[Pavulon]

79. YAHOO link for those who have a problem with FOX/AP

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060507/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_referendum_1

The source should never be confused with the message.

[Walt Disney]

80. Is anyone surprised? After all, this guy's contempt for the rule of

law is well documented. There is no democracy in Venezuela.

[scarletwoman]

82. Well documented? Really?

How about some links to that documentation?

sw

[Pavulon]

84. At your service

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[Mountainman]

86. You could take every one of those stories and replace Venezuela

with the US and you have a list of what Bush has done here.

[Pavulon]

89. strawman, different topic, new thread.(nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

126. Then you agree with my post, that you're full of....

...strawmen.

[Pavulon]

155. Focus my friend...

This thread is about a speech made by Hugo Chavez. Not a global conspiracy that dilutes the discussion on an event that took place in public and was recorded.

I am happy ot discuss that, and the strawmen too.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

283. No, it's not. It's about a TRANSLATION of what Chavez stated...

...a TRANSLATION that AP used as a source.

Besides, you admitted prviously that you don't speak Spanish, and that tells anyone all they need to know about your particular "focus".

[LoZoccolo]

172. I've been making this point for a long time.

Chavez is the Bush* of Venezuela.

[scarletwoman]

97. Since most of the stories at your link are about court trials in 2005,

it would be more instructive to know the outcomes of those trials. Openly bringing people to trial is not in itself indicative of lawlessness.

I do not defend Chavez unconditionally, but I do object to uninformed criticism.

Remember, the last vote held, which Chavez won by 59%, was monitored by international observers including Jimmy Carter and the OAS. It was certified free and fair. Certainly the Chavez government is not without corruption -- what government is? But Chavez is a legitimately, democratically elected leader who remains popular with the long-neglected underclass.

sw

[Pavulon]

100. I will not argue that

My point has been and will remain that any involvement by democrats with this guy is bad. He is on his way to being a dictator. Elected or not there is no communist state that is not defunct.

Staying president until 31 makes him a dictator.

He is only relevant because of oil.

He is as relevant to democrats here being elected as a rape at a college in durham nc.

[Walt Disney]

292. Link...? You could google it for yourself, my friend.

But try this.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Chavez/Jun2005ChavezEN.htm

[Mountainman]

85. Bull shit, he was elected, they have more democracy than we have

Bush and co steal our elections, the winners were Gore and Kerry. 3.6 million votes were not counted in 2004. Please read Greg Palast's new book.
Chavez has replaced the metal lean-to shacks with decent housing. He is giving the oil money back to the people. My wife's aunt lives there and gives us the real news.

[Pavulon]

88. I was there 2 years ago

setting up tooling equipment. There is still massive poverty. Yes your petro dollars help but the barrios are still there.

The chavistas are poor people. There is real poverty there. Like no running water, no food, no medical care poverty.

Worlds longest link, but this was there in 04.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://ratsound.com/tours/peppers/by_the_way_pics.htm&h=450&w=600&sz=64&tbnid=-FDmboltcG3kPM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=133&hl=en&ei=eG1dRJCIGIHUaYn9tLoK&sig2=-I8yfUHjPnq136jhBoJyFg&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcaracas%2Bpoverty%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-20,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN

[Mountainman]

93. The poverty is a direct result of things in place before Chavez was

elected. The ruling class then controlled the wealth. Chavez is redistributing the wealth. It takes time to change all those years of social injustice.

[Pavulon]

95. Yep

earlier poster said it was all fixed. Its not. I travel is SA for business. I don't care about communists, drug funded governments, or dictators. They all take money in exchange for doing business. I just want to do my job and leave. I want my stuff to get through customs and not be broken when i get it.

SA is screwed up, unless you have been the class differences are not really clear.

simple case of the new boss, just like the old boss.

All that power and money, why not stay in office until 31?

[1932]

116. This post sort of reveals a flippancy about reality that might explain

why your opinions seem to be so far off the mark.

If all you care about is getting your shit through customs, it might explain why you don't know, for example, why Venezuela was in serious debt up until 2004 and how that might result in poverty for a huge class of citizens.

[killbotfactory]

122. And never mind that the amount of people in poverty has dropped

From 80% to around 60%.

[Pavulon]

148. Gas Dollars

Every time you fill up you send them your money. The state controlled oil and gas firms that is. When prices settle (they have doubled since 2000, a RELEVANT issue) their economy will tank. They only have petro dollars. So they should buy all the migs and gunboats now.

My point was that I don't take a narrow view on governments. I dont judge communists, dictators, or democracies.

I dont talk about it abroad. I do my job, enjoy the place I am and leave. Mexico, Singapore, Venezuela, South Africa, China all have poverty, crushing poverty. The procedure s similar everywhere. Involve locals to do what ever they do to get the job done. They deal with customs and the other "requirements".

I don't care about chavez. He is a joke and would be as relevant to the world as the president of the DPRC. You know who that is, no? Because there is no oil there, only death.

What explains it is economics, not one person. Not a guy in a red shirt preaching nationalism.

My point he is not relevant to electing democrats. Smart democrats should stay away from this guy.

[1932]

154. I believe that any society, from easter island to saudi arabia, can work

if economic, political and cultural power isn't polarized. When the wealthy are insulated from the problems faced by the poor -- like the Mayan royaly -- they make poor decisions. When everyone is in the same boat -- like the Dutch (everyone lives below sea level in Holland) you solve your problems.

Venezuela during the last gas price boom became a MORE polarized, more corrupt society. The gas boom now helps Venezuela. Buts its Chavez's party's policies -- devolving political power, stopping the exploitation of resources by foreign companies and countries, literacy programs, health care, etc. -- which will ensure that Venezuela continues its turn into a functioning society.

[1932]

114. The country wasn't even running a surplus until 2004.

Thanks to the Chicago School economics of the president before the president Chavez replaced, the country was heavily indebted to Wall St banks. That's why the managment-lead oil strike was so important to the west. They knew Venezuela was on the ropes economically at that moment and was their last chance to break the backs of the Venezuelans before Bush sent the price of oil skyrocketing to benefit his friends in Texas.

Of course the country was screwed up two years ago. It was still suffering from neoliberalism.

If you don't believe me, read Richard Gott's book on Venezuela and read the book of Aleida Guevara's interview of Chavez, and google.

[ny_liberal]

131. wow

[Judi Lynn]

133. Only the most mentally challenged would lay this situation at Chavez' feet

Just how do you think anyone would believe you if you claimed this unbelievable squalor could be blamed on Hugo Chavez? How much of this do you think the man could have changed in 6 years? Real change takes place in real time. There are no magic wands.

Why don't you take some time out and start getting busy reading some history?

[ny_liberal]

134. Price of oil went from $7 to $75 while he's been president

One would expect significant change is living conditions.

Where are all the petro-billion going?

[Judi Lynn]

136. So how informed are you on what the conditions were BEFORE

he was elected?

Why don't you try to inform yourself, the way the rest of us do?

[ronnie624]

167. Are you truly interested

in learning about where revenue from PDVSA is going? A quick and simple Google search reveals the truth.
~~~~~~~
"Chavez has ensured that that money is now going to support public programs and one of the things that is happening is a diversion of the resources that are generated by the oil company to social programs, to the people. Now that’s not unusual, this is the people’s oil. People sometimes say this is bribery, but if you look at Alaska, the oil revenue goes to every citizen. It’s simply their right. In Venezuela, what’s happening is the oil revenue is going to the people, but in a different way. It’s going for programs that allow for greater education, that allow for greater health care, and it’s also going through the Bank for Economic and Social Development, through the Bank for Women, the micro-finance fund, and it’s also going to establish cooperatives."
<http://www.sevenoaksmag.com/features/20_venezuela.html>

"Nelson Merentes yesterday said, "more resources have been assigned to the social sectors to confirm that priority is given to the social inclusion programs in financial strategy." A whole range of social programs will gain from the increased funding with education, food security, and social development getting the most. Mission Robinson, a literacy campaign, and Mission Sucre, a university scholarship scheme, will both receive roughly $3.7 Billion each from the $16.6 Billion set aside for social development. By next year Venezuela's public spending will have more than tripled than when Hugo Chavez became President in 1998. The Venezuelan budget has benefited from a four-fold increase in the price of oil over the same period."
<http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1789>

"Later, I visit a high-school equivalency program for adults. Roraima is a 36 year old mother of two who's worked as a maid her whole life. Now she has a future, she tells me. "I had to drop out of high school in 9th grade to work, so my brothers could go to school. Now I'm getting my GED, and then I will go on to the Mission Sucre to study to become a social worker. Then I will be able to help others as Chávez has helped me, and give back to my community." Her voice quakes with the honor of it all as she tells me, "do you have any idea, any idea at all, what it means to me, a dropout maid, to become a high school graduate of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela?" Tears well up in my eyes every time I think of her.

"The literacy campaign, the high school and college education missions, the health care for all program, these are the backbone of a wide series of programs putting oil money to use for the benefit of 24 million instead of a few thousand. Massive land reform and rural assistance programs combined with subsidized food stores that reach over half the population are building food security and food sovereignty step by step."
<http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1004-22.htm>
~~~~~~~
For those who have a genuine interest in learning, there is no shortage of information from myriad sources.

[Judi Lynn]

171. Excellent information in your links. Hope people will take the time

to read them. I just was reminded, looking at your commondreams article, of the fact they are starting to develope a lot of the formerly unused, idle farm land to produce food for Venezuela. It's BIG news, considering most of the land belongs to a tiny group of elites who grabbed it all up long ago, leaving the poor to cling to the sides of those hills around the cities, in tin-roofed shanties, which slide down hills in rain storms.

In the past, most of the food was IMPORTED. They are changing that dilemna.

Also, important to note the proliferation of food kitchens throughout the barrios, providing hot food every day.

I just found this article which you probably have read about, already, but it's quite interesting:

Women’s Unwaged Caring Work

By Cory Fischer-Hoffman

A delegation of 70 women from the Global Women’s Strike, an organization formed to win economic and social recognition for unwaged caring work, stood together in the community of La Padera, Venezuela, awaiting news. Global Women’s Strike member Juanita Romero explained that President Hugo Chávez had just announced what we had all been waiting for: implementation of Article 88 of Venezuela’s Bolivarian Constitution.

Article 88 in the Bolivarian Constitution declares: “The State guarantees equality and equity between men and women in the exercise of their right to work. The State recognizes work in the home as an economic activity that creates added values and produces social welfare and wealth. Housewives are entitled to Social Security.”

Coinciding with the Global Women’s Strike’s delegation on February 2, in a speech delivered in the Teresa Careño theater in Caracas, Hugo Chávez proclaimed that on the first of May, International Worker’s Day, 100,000 Venezuelan female heads of households would receive 380,000 Venezuelan Bolivares per month ($185). This is about 80 percent of the Venezuelan minimum wage. In the following six months, another 100,000 women will begin to receive payments in recognition of their work.

“Caring for others is accomplished by a dazzling array of skills in an endless variety of circumstances. As well as cooking, shopping, cleaning, laundering, planting, tending, harvesting for others, women comfort and guide, nurse and teach, arrange and advise, discipline and encourage, fight for and pacify. Taxing and exhausting under any circumstances, this service work, this emotional housework, is done both outside and inside the home,” said Selma James, international coordinator of the Global Women’s Strike.
(snip)

This food kitchen is an integral part of all of the other Missions. If there are children or parents that receive food who have never learned how to read and write, they are integrated into the Educational Missions. If there are unemployed people who lack certain skills, they are integrated into Vuelvan Caras, the Mission that provides job training to establish cooperatives.
(snip/...)

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Apr2006/hoffman0406.html

[ronnie624]

225. Chavez is a great leader

but it is through him that the Venezuelan people are trying to build their future by hard work and dedication to their cause.
~~~~~~~
<snip>
At the bottom of a steep hill, Sylvia Gonzales Rodriguez met the 70 women from the Strike with a big smile. She is in charge of the “food house,” which feeds 150 people in the community, mostly people who are unemployed, have drug addictions, are pregnant or nursing women. She works with four other women preparing hot food from scratch with the staples she receives from the state subsidized food program called MERCAL. “There are other food programs that are not involved in the revolutionary project, which give food to children. We ensure that the whole family eats, not just the children,” Sylvia said.

<snip>
In addition to mothering three children and running the food house, Sylvia is a midwife. She receives no wages for her work, which is so essential to taking care of her family and community. “This is the basis of the process, that you learn by doing,” Sylvia added

<snip>
The lesson from Venezuela is that it is these very same women who are fighting for better schools, for health care, and for community control of resources. Out of their commitment to justice, to their families, and to their communities, they are building the basis of a caring economy.
~~~~~~~
If the people of Venezuela want to elect Hugo Chavez president for the next 30 years, it is their right to do so. There is, after all, much work to be done to clean up after many decades of corporate imperialism. I wish the Venezuelans good fortune in achieving their goals with the least amount of interference from the U.S. as possible.

It's always good to see you Judi.

[killbotfactory]

179. Oh yeah, definately the Bush of Venezuela...

:sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

135. Now that I think about it, I am reminded that since the Republicans

got the upper hand in Congress, during the 1990's, EVERYTHING in the U.S. has gone to hell in a handbag. Roads, bridges, health care costs, jobs, the middle class has started disappearing, college educations are being priced right out of reach of many, many students, etc., etc.

[killbotfactory]

132. And if you would listen to his opposition...

"Like no running water, no food, no medical care poverty."

You would think they deserve it.

[Walt Disney]

293. I you wish to comment on Bush, begin a thread about him.

However, this one is about a dangerous dictator, who has very nasty habits.

[bluestateguy]

90. He has stood for election far more times than Bush has

These elections have been certified by international observers as valid democratic elections. I may not agree with everything he has done (he is anti-abortion), but he is no dictator.

[smitty]

110. But he wants to be one.

[Judi Lynn]

112. It would be terrific to see a link bearing out your assertion. n/t

[smitty]

120. Don't need a link just look at his words. Indefinite presidency,

how is that NOT a dictatorship?

[Judi Lynn]

121. You need to read a little more closely. He didn't say he is seizing

control of the Presidency.

Take time to understand it. He would need to be re-elected to continue. RE-ELECTED.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

129. Yes....Chavez is not like the guy that thinks he's the U. S. president....

...he seized control in December 2000.

[Walt Disney]

290. Funny...I thought this thread was about Hugo Chavez.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Chavez/Jun2005ChavezEN.htm

[scarletwoman]

296. You're kidding, right?

You're supporting your argument by citing some totally obscure and anonymous website? Uh huh, if you read it on the internet it MUST be true!

:rofl:

sw

[Walt Disney]

361. Actually, it doesn't matter what link I offer.

Because no matter what the evidence reveals, the propagandists and apologists are either too naive or too militant to acknowledge the truth.

On the other hand, real Democrats from Howard Dean to John Kerry to Hillary Clinton to John Edwards to Richard Holbrooke to Evan Bayh have acknowledged the fact that Chavez is nothing more that a two-bit dictator.

[Bridget Burke]

358. We often discuss various related issues in threads.....

Find a better source.

[Walt Disney]

362. The source does not matter if the seeker is blind.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

161. Isn't Walt Disney famous for writing fairy tales? -nt

[Walt Disney]

291. And true stories as well.

And they are good stories with good endings. However, the story of Hugo Chavez is one of pure horror.

[tkmorris]

297. Pure horror?

Educating the poor, food for the hungry, using state assets to benefit people instead of foreign corporations? Oh, the horrors!

You know, you'd be a lot more effective if you pretended to be reasonable, dropping little lies in amongst real facts. This over the top approach just screams absurdity, no one will pay any attention to it.

[Walt Disney]

366. Whatever you say...

If you like Mugabe, you're gonna' love this guy.

[AllieB]

303. You always show up on Chavez threads with strawmen

how about some links from reputable sources to back up your assertions? Thanks! :-)

[Walt Disney]

364. Actually, this is the first time I've commented on a Chavez thread.

And based on what I've seen in this one, I haven't missed a thing.

[Azathoth]

137. If Dubya had made this statement, most of DU would have had a coronary

But since it's Chavez, term limits are suddenly unimportant.

It's truly amazing the way ideology blinds people...

[Judi Lynn]

138. You're just trying to butter us up. We're not that kind of posters.

[Azathoth]

139. I call it like I see it

If Dubya had come out two years ago and proposed an end to term limits, most of DU would have been apoplectic. However, now that Chavez is doing it, there seems to be a lot of equivocating and rationalizing going on.

[Judi Lynn]

140. You probably could benefit by actually reading what was posted.

No time like the present.

[Azathoth]

141. I did read what was posted, and it felt suspiciously like a Freeper thread

The poster who claimed that video tape was in no way proof that AP hadn't forged the story was particularly enlightening. Over the course of this thread, it has been asserted that the original poster is basically a troll for posting a valid news article, that the article is misleading (it isn't; it's quite clear), that it's nothing but Faux News propaganda (it isn't even written by Fox, although I will concede that anything posted on the Faux website is inherently suspect), that the quote is fabricated (it isn't, and numerous other news sources have picked up on it), that the article is likely part of a vast CIA program that controls nearly every major news source in the US including the AP, and so on. These are the exact types of arguments used by Freepers who are trying to rationalize news reports that are damaging to right wing leaders.

[killbotfactory]

311. If the democrats tried to stage a coup against Bush

there would be no democratic party left.

[hyphenate]

142. Whatever

It's his country, his people. Not our concern. If the people say he can stay, that's fine; if they want him to go, that's fine too. But the truth is, we've got our hands full with our own homegrown tyrants, and we need to get them the fuck out of our government before we can judge others on theirs.

[Alpharetta]

144. There's a middle ground

Whether or not he made the statements, he's done little to show me he intends to share power as part of a democracy.

I sympathize with him in his role as another target of American adventurism in South and Central America. But still he is a dictator until he sets up a democracy. I can't get behind that.

I enjoy it when he thumbs his nose at America's military/economic/propaganda machine. I admire him as an inspiration to all the countries who won't stand for America's bullying. But still I'm not going to defend how he runs his country.

He's not a real threat to America, only to our manifest destiny.

Many of Chavez's actions are defensible. But anyone with that much power and no apparent plan for sharing that power is not really someone we want to categorically defend.

[ny_liberal]

147. Well said.

[killbotfactory]

177. "But still he is a dictator until he sets up a democracy."

WTF?

[Alpharetta]

254. you know. like you're still obtuse until you're sharp

[killbotfactory]

256. They have a democracy right now

Where people can vote in internationally monitored and verified elections. I don't understand what you are talking about.

[Alpharetta]

273. OK. I understand

You can pretend to not understand. You can pretend there's been no problems with those elections. That he gives his country a say in how they are governed. That his other past actions are part of a democracy: seizing media, seizing industry, stacking courts, intimidating opposition.

Kind of like in America. There's degrees of democracy. You call it democracy. I call it something else.

[scarletwoman]

294. You want to talk about "pretending"?

"You can pretend there's been no problems with those elections."

Oh really? You know, FACTS have a way of catching up with those who "pretend" to know what they're talking about, when they actually don't know squat.

I hope you'll accept the Carter Center as a credible source:

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc1690.htm

Feature: The Carter Center and the 2004 Venezuela Elections

16 Sep 2004

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter led a team of international observers from The Carter Center during the Aug. 15 presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, when citizens voted on the recall of President Hugo Chavez. The Center previously observed the reparos--or signature verification correction periods; the signature collection; and the signature verification process.

On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.

Facts are really cool, so much more useful than unfounded and untrue assumptions.

sw

[1932]

295. 300 posts in, and one side of this argument is curiously light on facts.

Those are some strongly held-opinions from people who can't seem to find good reasons to have those opinions.

[Alpharetta]

299. A fair vote count does not mean a fair election

If he controls the media, threatens his opposition, controls the courts, I wouldn't call that a fair election.

[1932]

301. Well, he doesn't control the media (there's on government station

and nine private stations which defame him daily), he doesn't threaten the opposition anywhere near the degree the opposition threatens him (there was a coup, you know), and he doesn't control the courts (check out the way the supreme court has consistently reversed decisions relating to prosecutions of opposition terrorists).

[scarletwoman]

306. Oh come ON! The entire ELECTION was monitored by international

observers!

You've got nothing. You're just regurgitating propaganda.

Chavez does NOT control the media, nearly all of the media is privately owned by the opposition. They broadcast nothing but anti-Chavez content 24/7 -- they are NOT controlled by Chavez. Only in the past year has the Venezuelan government set up its own media company -- sort of like Al Gore's cable TV venture, an effort to counteract the plutocrat's "conventional wisdom".

Are you aware of the fact that during the 2002 coup, the privately owned media broadcast nothing but soap operas for 3 days, and refused to cover the fact that masses of Venezuelan citizens had taken to the streets to protest the illegal seizure of their government?

I wonder how much research you've ever done to arrive at your opinion. Some of us here have been closely following, and educating ourselves about, the political dynamics in Venezuela for many years now.

All you've demonstrated so far is that you've digested propaganda.

sw

[VirginiaDem]

157. He wants to rule until 2031.

This is clearly stated in the report. Here come the badtranslatista apologists, I know, thundering up from the basement but how hard can it be to mistranslate 2031?

[converted_democrat]

185. Where does it say that in the article? I just read it and didn't see it.

[VirginiaDem]

251. You're right.

I got the 2031 from the AP article linked to from Huffington Post here:

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835903301&path=!nationworld&s=

Interesting that the two stories coming from AP have such separate dates...I'll try to find the original in Spanish and get back...

[VirginiaDem]

253. Here's a Spanish-language account with quotes

http://noticias.ya.com/mundo/21/02/2006/chavez-decreto-presidencia.html

I can't vouch for this source but there were many Spanish-language sites with roughly the same story.

Here's the 2031 quotation:

«A lo mejor, yo no me voy de la Presidencia en el año 2013, sino que vendrían seis años más, 2019, y después otros seis años más hasta 2025, y luego otros seis hasta el año 2031. En caso de que aquí la oposición quiera hacer de nuevo la marramucia (mamarrachada) de que todos se retiren, entonces a lo mejor se potenciaría esta idea»

So it would appear that he's talking about repeated election wins as opposed to simply declaring himself president until 2031.

He would still have to change the constitution to do this of course.

[converted_democrat]

257. This isn't about Chavez declaring himself dictator for life, this is about

repealing term limits.. It's a democratically run country, and they have better voting systems than we have.. If the majority wants to amend their Constitution, why shouldn't they be able to do it??

[VirginiaDem]

277. Apologizing for Chavez will get you everywhere

here on DU but I don't buy it. As I've stated on this thread, changing the constitution in Latin America doesn't make one a maverick, democratic leader but rather a typical authoritarian. This is what authoritarian Latin American leaders have done throughout Latin American history -- they amend constitutions to allow themselves to stay in office longer.

What if a Republican-controlled Congress were to attempt to repeal our presidential term limits? Would you be so blase about that possibility even if it went through the proper channels?

[scarletwoman]

300. Of course you don't buy it.

You wouldn't want your opinions to be confused by facts.

[1932]

304. Have you read Richard Gott's book on Venezuela?

He writes about the progressive tradition in Latin American politics that is as long as the repressive, right wing tradition. He argues that Chavez is a part of that progressive, non-authoritarian tradition.

You should inform that opinion of yours.

[VirginiaDem]

318. I have read Gott

I don't find his argument convincing vis-a-vis nationalist/populist. He's a progressive nationalist populist no doubt but that's not typically un-Latin American as far as leaders go.

[converted_democrat]

335. Well, in today's world, I suppose it actually is hard to believe there is

a leader that actually wants to take care of his own people.. You know, not all leaders are as bad as our own..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

159. The opposition has found the dishonest tactic of not showing up

for the sole purpose of fucking up Chavez by denying him credibility.

He, in turn, threatens to do displeasant things if they do that shit again. Which is fine by me.

I hope the anti-Chavists take a good look at Chavez's popularity and decide to behave as a civilized opposition, therefore making all this moot.

[Pavulon]

162. So if the democrat(ic) residents

of new orleans had chosen a boycott of elections it is ok for the state to in effect ban them and install a 20 year government?

edit:grammar so as not to be accused of being a freeper

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

165. Chavez didn't talk about banning anybody, just repealing term limits.

They'd still be free to participate in the election following the one they boycotted.

Your analogy is false in other ways in addition to that one, but it's Sunday and I'm lazy today.

[Judi Lynn]

166. Also, how many Democrats have ever used "Democrat" as an adjective?

That ugly bit of nastiness has only been used by the most overwrought, hostile Republicans. Possibly the great Republican genius, Rush Limbaugh, started it.

[Pavulon]

168. Me for one

As in my wife is a democrat, I am a democrat, I live in a state with a democrat controlled government.

It is easier than saying I live in a state with a Democratic majority house..

Maybe it is a southern thing. My grandfather said it before Rush was born.

But if an "ic" means I can be taken off the list of suspected freepers I will be sure to add it in the future.

[Pavulon]

169. Changing the constitution is what is happening

Like I said if the constitution was changed here by the majority Republican government allow them a prolonged stay you would not see a problem.

I would have a major problem with that. The people should not be punished for choosing not to do something.

If I lived in NO and choose not to vote as a DEMOCRAT(ic) voter because I thought the city was screwing me I should not be compelled to participate.

My 2 cents. In reality it does not matter any more than a rape at duke.
Has nothing to do with November.

[Flanker]

180. This is insane

First of all you are all over the place, the legality of this issue is clear 2 terms, but the constitution allows for ammendments with a referendum.

The US constitution has changed many times over the years with the inclusion of term limits, are you opposed to all of those changes? We now enter the morality there is nothing inmoral about no-term limits, especially if the people back it in referndum (unlike the US ammendments) Demos is greek for people and cracy is greek for government, nowhere does it mean that every president is a dictator untill he leaves power, FDR never left power willingly and he is great in part because he saw the tradition of term limits as anti-democratic because the will of the people is cheated.

As for the rest it is accurate he is goading the opposition to listen to their moderate wing instead of the extremist wing that wants to boycott. This might actually help the opposition in the long run. I wish Bush could run again 32% of the votes would be the perfect humiliation for his tenure, and impossible to hide or cheat.

[Pavulon]

184. Sure does

our constitution can be amended to do all kinds of unsavory things. Legal and democratic does not mean should be done. Bottom line if he is in power until 31 that something other than a democracy.

[killbotfactory]

187. "if he is in power until 31 that something other than a democracy."

Unless the people elect him in free and fair elections.

[Pavulon]

191. "free and fair"

is the key. I bet he will be long dead by 31. At the hands of his military. Tradition in SA.

It is wrong. Let the same thing roll off your tongue and substitute George W Bush, just doesn't seem right does it?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

196. You wish that, don't you? No, no point replying. We know the answer. -nt

[Pavulon]

208. Nice

when all else fails..I will not question the prophet or his motives, Chavez good, questions bad. Give me a break, are you 13?

How do you use ignore here?

Feel free to answer that question about 31 and bush...

I wish he said 42, that would have been so much funnier.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

189. That's a horrendous abuse of language.

Democracy doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Pavulon]

192. Saddam got

99 percent in is elections. Iran has elections. UZBEKISTAN has elections. That makes everything OK there. The opposition is treated fairly and not threatened like in this case.

They can be just like Cuba. They have elections too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

195. Tortures? Disappearances? Has anything of the sort happened in Venezuela?

Conversely, do you think an opposition party, media outlet, or plain individual in Iraq, who was as openly virulent toward Saddam as the ones in Venezuela are toward Chavez, would survive more than a week?

[Pavulon]

198. Read up on HRW

I wonder how long the opposition in Venezuela will last. They are being jailed now..

[Ken Burch]

211. Human Rights Watch is completely controlled by the Bushes

And the anti-chavistas have no positive intentions towards Venezuela.

Remember, it would be a tragedy if Venezuela ends up like Chile or Nicaragua.

[Pavulon]

215. You are way off

HRW has published many scathing articles on Bush policy on torture. rightly so I may add.

They are based in the UK if I remember correctly.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

330. Prove it.

[converted_democrat]

199. Venezuela has a better voting system than we do, with a paper trail..

Chavez is nothing like Saddam and you know it.. What a crock.. You either have an agenda, or you're horribly misinformed.. Chavez is loved by his people..

[Pavulon]

201. by "his" people

the chavistas. Not everyone loves him. like the ones he is jailing. Those evil rich people who are on the redistribution list, must really love him.

I got a paper printout last time around from the pretty new machine.

What is up with the rose colored glassed and this guy. You would think he was a prophet to some folks around here.

[converted_democrat]

202. Yea, that's why he won in a landslide, right? What a joke.. Does it

really bother you that he actually tries to take care and do right by the people of his country?


on edit- You got a print out? Where was that?

[Pavulon]

205. North Carolina

Inspected the output of the machine and left. They were really nice about it too. I live in the RED part of the state.

No BS from workers.

[converted_democrat]

210. Chavez won in a landslide, the vast majority of his country loves

him.. If his people love him, and they elected him, don't you think that perhaps they have a better understanding of the situation than you do??

I'm pretty familiar with electronic voting machines, and I've never heard of one that offers a paper trail.. Even if what you're claiming is true, those machines are not the norm, and as a whole, Venezuela has a better voting system than we do..

[Pavulon]

214. Didn;t seem that way to me

There were massive splits in how people spoke about the government in 04 when I was there.

I choose not to get into it. That is my rule, no politics in other countries, EVER.

However people referred to chavistas and the central government taking more power. These were machine operators, not elitists in mansions. I do not read a daily english language paper from Venezuela so I have no real idea. People love to talk politics, it took several tries to explain that I can't talk about it. I was surprised how polarized people were. I don't think class/wealth issues have gone away in two years.

It did not interfere with my work so I took no notice. Every country I have visited has a different political system. I have found it is a bad idea to talk politics with people at work in this country or others.


If you are consuming their media you probably have a better position to speak from than me?

[converted_democrat]

217. Do you really think I'd believe anything you're trying to push here?

You keep trying to back out of earlier statements, and you're making ridiculous comparisons about China a Venezuela.. Venezuela does have a better voting system than we do, they have a system where everyone can verify their own vote before it's cast..

[Pavulon]

221. Nice try, I am not the topic

I have said CONSISTENTLY and posted a thread in GP that I could care LESS about what they do. It is irrelevant to electing DEMOCRATS here.

Chavez is a distraction and relevant because he sits on oil. Else no one would care what he did. Just like sudan and Rwanda, no oil, no consideration.

I do not care about the president of the DPRC or Iceland either.

You misread the post upstream. I was talking about doing business in socialist and communist countries. Something I have done. I do not know or care how they vote. Probably don;t use diebold.

You can go on topic any time you feel ready.

The topic is, the opposition is threatened with a constitutional change that allows the current president to stay in power forever.

Sourced by AP and other agencies. Including Venezuelan english language sites.

[converted_democrat]

224. Well..

"Didn;t seem that way to me. There were massive splits in how people spoke about the government in 04 when I was there."

I simply stated that I wouldn't take your word for it...


"The topic is, the opposition is threatened with a constitutional change that allows the current president to stay in power forever."

That's not what it's about, it's about repealing term limits, and being able to keep his name on the ballot.. They have a better, more reliable voting system than we do, so if the people don't want him, they can simply not vote for him.. There are several steps in changing their constitution democratically, so if they wish to change it as a country, it is their right... Next?

[Name removed]

268. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flanker]

193. Your argument falls appart

This is what you said

"Changing the constitution is what is happening"

You cannot argue that changing the constitution is the worst that happened yet it is not significant.

If the people decide who they want and what they want it is called democracy, sorry that you have to change the definition of the word to win an argument but you may as well be speaking mandarin.

Parlamentary systems don't have term limits either and PM's have ruled for decades in Canada and Sweeden, try to paint them as dictatorships.

[Pavulon]

203. Ok

I give up. You have won. Chavez is a wonderful progressive man. Maybe he can run for office here if he ever leaves office there.

I will not bring up issues such as threatening the opposition, jailing dissidents, and seizure of foreign assets. That is all ok, countries like canada and sweden seize assets all the time. You know, to help the poor. Those opposition people are at fault for not voting, they should be punished.

He is really trying to help the poor. He has no interest in money and power. Those things are irrelevant to him.

Lets change our constitution to give the ruling party new powers. That is a great idea.

I will not question the prophet again..

[Flanker]

216. Well here is your time to shine

Name one single political prisoner, and better make it count.

Also name me a REAL threat not this silly thread of rasing term limits, lets see how much you know, and don't worry I won't dismiss the source either.

[Pavulon]

223. Crazy Diamond

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm

Not 1 but 23..

Here is the rest of the list of progressive government acts...

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[Flanker]

240. Sigh I knew you would just link to a generic list without glossing over it

Having actually read it there is not a SINGLE political prisoner, they were DETAINED which happens in every single protest in the US especially if they get violent like those did.

Try again, and this time don't dissapoint.

[1932]

242. Since Judith Miller actually spent a couple months in prison, US worse

(and MUCH worse) than Venezuela by this measure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

320. Judith Miller should have spent quite a bit more time in prison....

...based on her role in the exposing of Valerie Plame.

JMHO.

[killbotfactory]

241. ...

"There have also been reports of acts of vandalism committed by some demonstrators, as well as attacks on the pro-government press."

I suppose the government is attacking their own supporters, too.

[elvisabel78]

266. You said "ban them", when in fact Chavez wants a referendum

don't distort the facts.

[TriMetFan]

163. What every.

I bet the Bush Thugs are pissing in there pants. Hugo just wants to be able to keep running and if the people keep voting for him, then thats their right. How many times has the U.S. tried to over throw Hugo? Again Hugo knows that if the opposition party win's that the U.S "Bush & thugs" will be right in there taking over the Nation and its oil.

[Pavulon]

226. Upstream Comments

I am going to take a break and watch a movie with my wife and kids..

So if I don't respond to your post about some point it is not because I have run out of great sources on the net but have been threatened by the majority, my wife, that if I don't participate in activities, she will make all decisions in the house until 2031...

[1932]

235. You should watch The Revolution Will Not Be Televised with your wife and

kids.

You might learn something.

[Pavulon]

258. Will check it out.

we are at the incredibles stage. Weather sucks or we would be outside. I hate tv.

[RDU Socialist]

228. Okay, if Stephen Harper or Merkel did this exact same thing

would those who are not opposing this hideously undemocratic move be so indifferent to this? I have serious doubts about that.

[1932]

234. Do Canada and Germany have term limits? The UK doesn't.

If any Prime Minister of the UK said they wanted to keep running for party leader, would you call that undemocratic? Just like Chavez, they'd still need to win votes to say leader.

[Easy]

239. No, there's no term limit in Germany

That's why Helmut Kohl is now known as "Der ewige Kanzler" (the eternal chancellor) - he was chancellor for 4 terms, that's 16 years.

~Easy

[1932]

244. So Merkel can already do this, as could Schroeder. Where's the protest?

The issue isn't term limits. The issue is whether the elections are fair and free from the influence of wealth, and whether the interests of the people are ultimately represented.

[Minstrel Boy]

238. no term limits

And what's unconstitutional about a constitutional amendment?

[1932]

245. Exactly.

[Rex]

249. Another article said he asked for 25 years.

:eyes:

[shanti]

260. where did you go, OP?

no response to the story you posted and the shytstorm it has generated? :shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

262. And people wonder why so many left-wing governments go to junk.

Violation after violation is defended by apologist after apologist until it's nothing like it should be (except in the insistent eyes of the snarky and/or self-righteous apologists).

[elvisabel78]

267. Fox News simply lied in the headline

Chavez, in light of the opposition's refusal to participate in elections which have been transparent according to the Carter Center and the Organization of American States, wants to ask Venezuelans if they would like him to hold a 25 year-term , since nobody wants to oppose him anyway.
If the Venezuelans want that, they are entitled to it. Venezuela for the Venezuelans. They decide.

[rman]

324. left-wing governments go to junk because US power elites don't like 'm

Just look at the past half a century of US foreign policies in Latin America.

[killbotfactory]

353. Here's a good place to start.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/index.html#Latin%20America

[noel adamson]

263. Death squads and the trail of Socialists the fascists have left in S. A.

Considering the many, many fascist dictators our extreme right wingers have forced on the people of South and Central America in our name and the extreme degree of interference with their elections, up to and including ballot box stuffing on a routine and massive scale and intimidation of voters via methods up to and including torture and murder we should not wonder that the people of that region have little taste for capitalism or pseudo-democracy we have been selling, names fascists have mis-appropriated for their operations and bogus, make show elections. What is a shame is that we do not also see the bogus nature of our own "Pepsi or Coke?" elections and do something as bold. Definitly not suspending further elections and not letting them do us like they did us with Nixon when they let one puppet resign and leave his own hand picked puppet in his place while we all went back to sleep.

[Inland]

265. It's an Associated Press story, picked up widely.

I'm not sure of any particular reason to disbelieve it, aside from the fact it's bad news.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=chavez+Venezuela+indefinite+Times&btnG=Search+News

[Media_Lies_Daily]

278. And who did AP use as their source? A badly translated video?

[Inland]

289. I don't know, but

I'm not sure what Chavez could have been saying that could have been mistranslated into the quoted portions.

Anyone from Venezuela denying the occurrences?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

322. The captive U. S. mainstream media has a long history of....

...misrepresenting what foreign leaders have to say. In fact, they also have a long history of reporting things about other countries that turn out not to be true. It's all part of the NeoCon Junta's practise of demonizing leaders of countries that don't do what the NeoCons tell them to do.

Shall I prepare a list of other countries that have been the focus of NeoCon propaganda efforts over the last five years? How about the following countries, in no particular order:

*Afghanistan
*Iraq
*North Korea
*France
*Iran
*Syria
*Indonesia
*Cuba
*Russia
*China

I'm probably missing a few, but I think you get the point.

[Inland]

336. I'd just like to know what you think Chavez said.

I understand that not everything reported is true, but is that enough to simply assume Chavez said nothing of the sort? O

I suppose if it's assumed that Chavez isn't looking to stay in power, then yeah, it's misreported. But maybe the assumption about Chavez is wrong.

Any denials out of Venezuela yet?

[Name removed]

269. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

270. Naive trust in left wing leaders

again spawns absurd rationalizations to justify autocratic behavior.

We see the same self-deluding on the part of Bush fans to justify Bush's outrageous actions. Same difference.

Blind hero worship never seems to go out of style.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

276. Not to mention knee-jerk posts from posters who evidently...

...believe they have the only OPINION about Chevez.

Good luck with that.

[Alpharetta]

279. Do you trust HumanRightsWatch.org ?

Do you trust Human Rights Watch to characterize Chavez accurately? They cite a few items which give me doubt about Chavez's willingness to sustain a democracy.

Court Orders Trial of Civic Leaders
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm
"In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today."
(more at link)

Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm
"Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today."
(more at link)

Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm
"A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today. "
(more at link)


====

As I said in previous post I enjoy it when he thumbs his nose at America's military/economic/propaganda machine. I admire him as an inspiration to all the countries who won't stand for America's bullying. But still I'm not going to defend how he runs his country or call it a democracy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

285. Hasn't that group been hijacked lately by rightwing interests?

[LoZoccolo]

317. Since when?

Since they started criticizing Chavez and saying things you disagree with?

Whether or not those things are happening don't matter anyways, because the apologists would stick with them if people's heads ended up on sticks at every intersection in Venezuela. They'd be saying "they Photoshopped the heads on sticks into the pictures!" It's useless, apologists are going to squirm away from what they disagree with regardless.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

325. "Apologists"?? Is that what you think I am? Funny how anyone...

...defending Chavez, or anyone else that the NeoCons target, gets the label of "apologist" from a certain group of posters.

After all of the foreign leaders that the NeoCon Junta has either demonized, or tried to demonized, since taking power in December 2000, you would think that people would be a lot more critical of reports like this.

Just curious, but what label should I apply to you and other posters that seem intent on supporting the NeoCon point of view about Chavez? I can think of a few, but probably not real appropriate for public consumption.

[LoZoccolo]

334. Yeah.

The reason you hear it so much is that it fits.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apologist

Would you argue that you are defending Chavez and his policies?

[1932]

287. google Hector Vivanco and it'll give you pause about HRW's committment

to not letting the private companies who finance it have too much control over who heads the Latin American desk.

[Alpharetta]

302. help? I'm not finding it

I'm interested.
Can you post a Google Search that gets what you're referring to? I'm not finding it in my search. Thanks.

[1932]

305. Oops, wrong first name: José Miguel Vivanco

This story was on the first page of results:

Human Rights Watch "Americas Division" chief José Miguel Vivanco falls deeper down the slippery slope of anti-democracy lobbying now with his claim that foreign government funding of partisan electoral groups in Venezuela is okey-dokey by him.
First, a reality check and public service announcement for those who might not be familiar with United States campaign finance laws:

If you want to make a donation to the campaign of George W. Bush in the United States (we're not recommending it, for the record) and you go to Bush's website and click "donations" and you will find that, before you can give him money, you have to affirm:


"By clicking on this box I acknowledge that contributions from corporations and foreign nationals are prohibited."

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2004/7/15/235212/720

[Alpharetta]

307. Thanks

interesting.
I hate that now I can't trust HRW. Why do they let that guy run the South America desk?

[1932]

315. This book might have some answers to that question:

It addresses HRC, not HRW, but the logic applies to HRW too.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0807079553&id=UCW0ipGP51MC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&q=human+rights&vq=human+rights&dq=lisa+duggan+twilight+of+equality&sig=yDgQwK54awK6AxulImIi6Km1ZB8


The Twilight Of Equality?: Neoliberalism, Cultural Politics, and the Attack on Democracy

[Endangered Specie]

286. Anyone who even slightly understands history...

should not be suprised by this.

[1932]

288. Yes, in 1907, the US media went on a propaganda rampage against

Nicaragua's left wing elected president because, after the US decided to build its canal through Panama, he went to Europe for financing to build his own canal.

Not only would that have undermined US control over trade between the Atlantic and Pacific, it meant an opportunity cost for JP Morgan. So, the US media turned on Nicaragua, and they threatened the country by putting the US Navy in the harbor. Nicaragua's president tried to save himself by shifting all his borrowing to JP Morgan, but it wasn't enough. The US backed a right wing coup, and that was it for democracy.

Yes, anyone who knows their history should understand that if a left wing elected president says something that can be spun into lies, ignorant Americans will be ready to believe those lies with the slightest of provacation.

History, you rhyme.

[killbotfactory]

310. And let's not forget Guatemala, Chile... oh hell, the list is to long

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/index.html#Latin%20America

[nick303]

298. Actual quotes

He has hinted at this in a number of places, it is often somewhat vague. Below I can find a quote from his show "Alo Presidente"
that seems to be pretty clear that he will just be going for re-election each time, not appointing himself as dictator. Personally, I still believe that kind of thinking is a bit unsettling, but judge for yourself.

"Si a mí me quieren aplicar una americana en diciembre, si el imperio (Estados Unidos) pretende hacer estas jugadas, si no hay candidato de oposición para tratar de derrocarme indirectamente, yo pudiera asumir: me lanzo para las otras elecciones también, sería capaz de firmar un decreto lanzando a referéndum popular (con la pregunta) '¿Está usted de acuerdo en que Chávez se lance en 2013?", expresó.

Agregó que "entonces no me voy en 2013, si no en 2019, 2025, 2031". Alegó que si la oposición "irresponsable" no tiene candidatos este año, tampoco los tendría para las futuras elecciones.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

328. Do you have any links? How about an accurate translation?

[The Onyx Key]

363. OK, I'll bite. I'm genuinely curious. MLD, what do you think

he said? Do you know and will you try to find out? Do you trust any news sources? Why or why not?

Please support your answers as necessary with information from class materials. The proctor will give you another answer booklet if you need more space to write. If you finish early, please do not disturb others who are taking the test. Good luck! :P

[sweetheart]

338. asking for an extension of the term limits

I don't see that as bad.
I think he's doing the right thing, a good job for his people,
and if they say he can stay on, then that's democracy, isn't it.

I'm sorry, i just don't see what is here to get worked up about.

[Tight_rope]

341. If the people want him...so let it be. Better then this shit for brains

here in the US.

[corporate_mike]

343. Sounds like a dictator

[Bacchus39]

345. sounds like an idiot too

n/t

[Bridget Burke]

347. Echo chamber? n/t

[sabbat hunter]

348. if he plans on

suspending elections or installing himself as president for life, then he doesnt deserve to be president at all any more. many of the worlds worst dictators came into power initally thru "free and fair" elections and turned themselves into leaders for life (marcos, Hitler, Moussolini, etc)

if he is planning on changing the Ven constitution so he can keep running for re-election, that might be a problem too.

as far as the people loving him, he seems to talk a big game about helping the common folk, but the results are not there, with anywhere between 30-50% of the country citizens still stuck in poverty.

the fact that he aligns himself with Castro isnt a good thing either, as castro's cuba isnt what can be called the bastion of democracy and freedom.

yes Chavez has done some good, like the cheap heating oil to US, but that doesnt automatically make him good. Under hitler and moussolini the trains ran on time and the people had jobs and food, but that doenst mean they were good leaders/people.

[killbotfactory]

352. Poverty has dropped in Venezuela

Before Chavez, there were extreme rates of poverty. No thanks to washington friendly economic policies. It has dropped by a third since Chavez was elected, and is continuing to drop. People are getting jobs, education, health care, subsidized food. The opposition has done everything possible to undermine his efforts, including bombing buildings to promote instability, stopping oil production which sent the economy tanking, provoking violent confrontations between pro and anti-Chavez groups, and staging a coup which involved the deliberate murder of innocent people.

The reason you don't hear about progress is because most of the media simply doesn't report it. They'd rather focus on off-hand remarks bashing Bush, or musing about whether he is a dictator or not.

Let's go see what the money from the gringos and their SUVs bought. In barrios like this, there's a happy bounce. Chavez has finally tackled the health and education problems suffered by Venezuela's poor. He's imported 15,000 Cuban doctors and teachers, too. Before Chavez spread the oil wealth, 55% of the population lived in poverty. Now poverty is down by a third, and a million-and-a-half people have been taught to read.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/12/140206

It is also important to understand how Castro is viewed in the third world, since "Friend of Castro" is used as shorthand for "dictator" in the media. While the US was busy toppling democratically elected governments in favor of right wing dictators who shamelessly murdered their own people, Castro and Cuba were standing up to us. When Nelson Mandela was trying to end apartheid, the US was calling him a terrorist, while Castro was sending troops to help end it (Nelson Mandela is also a "friend of Castro", btw). While we were busy spraying blacks with hoses and unleashing dogs on them, Cuba was enshrining racial equality into law, getting universal education, and universal health-care. This is not to say things in Cuba are great and wonderful, it's just important to realize there are two sides to every story. They have also never taken any action against us, while we have supported invasions, terrorism, and numerous assassination attempts. The worst thing they did was to nationalize our companies who wouldn't go along with their reforms (they offered to compensate, but we would have none of it, of course), and let Russia put nukes on their island, because they didn't want us sponsoring any more Bay of Pigs attempts.

[Spinoza]

354. Why should anyone be surprised.

Its clear the SOB always intended to be Mr "President For Life" like his hero Castro. This is just the first step. Another tinpot dictator in the making.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

357. "From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish."

"Silence! In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check. Furthermore, all children under 16 years old are now... 16 years old!"

[maddezmom]

368. locking

No new ground is being covered and the event reported is no longer Latest Breaking News.