Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years: Working Conditions, Low Salaries Cited

[DeepModem Mom]

WP/Reuters: Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years
Working Conditions, Low Salaries Cited
By Lisa Lambert
Reuters
Tuesday, May 9, 2006; Page A07

Jessica Jentis fit the profile of a typical American teacher: She was white, held a master's degree and quit 2 1/2 years after starting her career.

According to a new study from the National Education Association, a teachers union, half of new U.S. teachers are likely to quit within the first five years because of poor working conditions and low salaries....

***

The study, which the association released last week ahead of its annual salute to teachers today, also found that the average teacher is a married, 43-year-old white woman who is religious.

Teachers are more educated than ever before, with the proportion of those holding master's degrees increasing to 50 percent from 23 percent since the early 1960s.

Only 6 percent of teachers are African American, and 5 percent are Hispanic, Asian or come from other ethnic groups. Men represent barely a quarter of teachers, which the association says is the lowest level in four decades....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html

[GrumpyGreg]

1. It's a tough job-I lasted 2 years and it was a long time ago.

I wouldn't last 2 days now.

[zanne]

25. I lasted four years.

Then, one summer, I decided not to teach summer school and went to work in a bank. The first time I completed a project, I handed it to my boss and she said "thank you". You could've knocked me over with a feather. That's the day I quit teaching.

[Yupster]

212. I lasted nine years

Haven't missed it.

Even in the nine years that I taught there was a dramatic change in the classroom and not for the better.

This was in the mid-eighties to early nineties. From the teachers I talk to, it appears things have only continued to worsen since I left.

It's not salaries as they have gone up dramatically over the last 25 years.

To me it was that the kids were less prepared, cared less and acted much worse than they did when I started.

I blamed the general breakdown of the family that has been going on for fifty years.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Other important reasons making it near impossible to stay:

No support from administration on a good day, antagonism on a bad day.

No Child Left Behind and standardized tests

No support from parents when their help is needed with regard to the acadmic and/or discipline needs of their children

The "older" kids (fourth grade now, I guess) stand up and talk back to you when you attempt to apply a modicum of authority in order to keep order. After all, in their mind, it's THEIR classroom, not yours, not shared, theirs.

Trying to get through a 45 minute lesson when the kids have virtually no attention span for stand-up.

Watching kids get poor grades and knowing it's YOUR fault, not theirs. At least you know where the blame's going . . .

[Hissyspit]

17. I hadn't even opened your post and the first thing that popped into

my head when I saw your post title: "No support from administration," your exact words.

[shrike]

34. A horror story in Time Magazine

I'm not a teacher, but I found myself wowed by these tales. Teachers told by their students' parents that they are not to discipline their kids "in any way," mothers sitting in the classrooms so they can keep abreast of Johnny's school work, and -- my personal favorite -- the group of Moms who came to school on the Seniors last day so they could watch their boys eat lunch together one last time. (The kids were embarrassed beyond belief, of course.)

Then there was the teacher who got a call from Mom regarding the C plus her daughter got on an essay. Mom argued that it was A work. Teacher soon realized that Mom wrote the essay.

[knitter4democracy]

40. That last one happens a lot.

My MIL did it with one of her daughters and got really mad when she e-mailed it to me and I agreed with the teacher's grade.

I had a student we all knew used her mom to write her papers. The worst was when her mom faxed a paper to the school--from Europe where she was travelling at the time. Like the teachers wouldn't see the foreign phone number at the top . . . :eyes:

[shrike]

129. What do these people think their kids are going to do when they're

not around?

It seems to be a rather skewed version of parenting, if you ask me.

[knitter4democracy]

140. I've never understood it, myself.

It's all about grades and results, supposedly so the kids can get into the perfect college. It's pretty messed up thinking, though, since they don't realize that the kids won't survive in college if they don't have the skills.

[valerief]

3. She WAS white? What color is she now? Sorry, couldn't stop myself.

[WinkyDink]

71. Exactly. Journo Major strikes again.

"She was white, held a master's degree...."

BOTH verbs should be present tense.

[valerief]

130. Well, the master's degree could have been recinded or something.

But race only changes when the categories changers change them. I remember when hispanic wasn't a race.

[Igel]

205. Narrative past tense.

"She fit the profile: She is white." Sounds ill-formed to my ears, unless the writer wants to make very overt the claim that she's still alive. It's not important, and makes her continued existence the point. But it's not the point.

At the present, she could be dead, but it doesn't matter to the narrative. What was described was in the past, without regard to the continuance of the state into the present. If she turns up alive a sentence or two later, no counter-claim was made, no contradiction is necessarily present.

If you know Bulgarian, it's reportative (with a similar tense shift). If a Romance language, it would be imperfect. Agnostic as to any change of state.

[sunniluna]

228. journalism writing/online/ page vs official english

exactly igil, you can't use the traditional rules while writing for online or the page, it doesn't sound (look) natural. you have to write the way the average person would speak in everyday conversation or people will not want to read it. you have to make your copy sound like a fun conversation, i run a listserve and have learned that people like to read things that look how they sound...

english, luckily or unluckily is very flexible...

sunni

[sunniluna]

227. she's clear

she's now clear, teaching taught her to breakthrough, she's now in nirvana...sunni

[Warpy]

4. The statistcs are even more dismal for nurses, who are paid better

because the working conditions are horrific and getting worse.

I'm not surprised by teachers getting out, too.

[AnneD]

68. I was thinking the same thing...

Nurses last 2-3 years. I am a school Nurse and God only knows how I have lasted 18 yrs in Nursing (14 as a school Nurse). I left full time floor nursing after 2 years. It was mainly due to 12 hour shifts. By the time you complete paperwork it is 13+ and then you have your commute. I had a toddler and back to back 12's were just too much. And then there are the injuries from lack of safety equipment. You deal with physically and verbally assualts by patients and Docs, lawsuits because admin doesn't want to staff safely and are the first to let you twist in the wind, nastiness from other stressed out Nurses, etc.

The switch to school Nursing has kept me in the field. I feel sorry for the teachers. I wouldn't do their job. They are being told by legislature that have never be IN a class how to do their job. They are not given the supplies thay need to do their job, and they are not backed up when they DO their job. They only have the kid for less than 8 hours and cannot be held responsible for the other 16 hours. Some of these kids have serious problems BEFORE they set foot in school. As someone mentioned on this BB-they can't make chicken salad from chicken shit, and that is what teachers are expected to do.

I am so lucky right now to work for the 2 best bosses I have ever had. I love our principal-she is a teacher's teacher with business smarts. My part time job has a great Nurse Manager. We love her dearly.

I will be retiring at the first chance at age 57 (thanks to the Teacher Retirement System). These jobs wear you out physically and mentally. I worry about the new Nurses and teachers. If the enviroment is not changed...there WILL be no one willing to go into the field. The Boomers were the last large influx into these jobs.

[Mz Pip]

5. My son is a teacher

This is his 3rd year. He did a double major in NY, Education and Music, went through student teaching, graduated cum laude and got his NY credential. He moved back to California where the schools are desperate for good teachers.

CA accepted his credential conditionally and is now requiring that he go back to school for another year. He had more student teaching and education classes in NY than he would have had doing the teaching program here, but it's still not good enough for CA. Now he has to take a year off and is wondering how he will be able to afford to do that. Salaries are really low and unless he marries rich he'll never be able to afford to buy a house or live in a good neighborhood.

He is seriously considering changing professions and going into some trade, possibly plumbing. The money is better and you don't bring your work home.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[madrchsod]

8. my daughter works with a woman whoes husband has a

masters in english and he drives a semi truck and is making about 55-60 a year. he couldn`t find anything to do with a masters in english where they live...

[Mz Pip]

10. Yeah, my son's friend is a plumber

and he has a nice house and a wife and 2 kids. Does very well. Told my son if he ever wanted to change professions to let him know. Not that plumbers and truck drivers don't deserve their pay. But considering the demands on teachers these days and the conditions of some of the schools more pay is certainly needed.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[shrike]

38. Son-in-law's a plumber

He and SD are not rich, but they ARE affluent enough that she can stay home with the kids.

I tell people not to knock the skilled trades: pipefitters, sheet metal workers, electricians; it's good money. Even the guys that work on high office buildings, the union painters, make a ton of money; more than most "professional types" do. I remember a blue collar guy getting up and stating, casually, that he made more than $100K a year. All the guys in suits turned around and looked at him.

[CrispyQ]

209. And you can't outsource plumbing!

I do wonder though, as more & more people see trade occupations as a secure choice, will there eventually be a glut of tradesmen & consequently their earning power will go down?

[NEOBuckeye]

6. It's a thankless job, to be sure.

Society expects you to handle all of it's social burdens it doesn't want to deal with, while at the same time it demands that you jump through a ridiculous number of hoops to do just that, and berates you even when you do a good job of it all. And for comparatively less money than what the same amount of responsibilities would net in the corporate realm.

And people actually bitch about teachers being overpaid.

No, I don't blame anyone for leaving this profession. Had I chose to go to B-school instead, I'd be collecting 40k to 50k as a Target assistant manager just to let other people handle the work for me.

On the other hand, I'd have no social life. Go figure.

[Solo_in_MD]

7. I did not last 5 years myself

The admin and the PC attitudes got to me. I had tenure, but was really tired of the nonsense and abuse, not only from the administration but some of the other staff.
- I failed the jocks who did not cut it
- I did not walk the NEA line on a lot of things
- I did not take the petty in-building dramas seriously

I wasn't in it for my ego, and was results focused. My classes produced better test scores (AP and district then, not NCLB) than the other two high schools in the district. I was reasonably popular with the students, cosponsored the science fair and was for a while fairly happy teaching. Then again I was teaching hard science, not remedial English. My wife still teaches, bless her for it...

[Bigmack]

9. Both my wife and I did...

30 years each in a high school.

A little mild electroshock therapy, a lotta alcohol, and the passage of 7 years since we retired... hell, we're almost normal.

Seriously... we're both miss the kids, but we wouldn't be in the classroom today for twice what we made then.

Neither of us could shut up about Reagan back in those days.... we'd get fired now for all the shit we'd say about Dumbya.

[CornField]

11. All the teachers I know hold second jobs

No, we aren't talking summer jobs. They all hold a SECOND job in addition to their teaching. Some work as cashiers, others as baristas, still others as waitresses. It blows my mind that teachers aren't paid a living wage... it blows my mind that legislators find my children to be so insignificant.

$442 BILLION EACH YEAR FOR DEFENSE
$39 BILLION EACH YEAR FOR K-12 EDUCATION

Our priorities need work.

[Sabriel]

52. "Why did the teacher cross the road?"

"To get to her second job." Ba dum dum.

I know plenty of teachers who work as real estate agents, tutors, painters, and do other various jobs. Gee, I wonder why?

[Tight_rope]

73. $442 BILLION each year for DEFENSE & $39 BILLION each year FOR K-12

education. Yeah that is pretty fucked up. We are paying $442 billion to protect our dumbasses.

[Yupster]

214. But that's federal money when

95 % of education funding comes from states and localities.

You could certainly argue that education should be primarily a federal responsibility, but it never has been, so talking funding without including state and local sources will give wildly distorted results.

I guess a person could point out that a friend went to a Ford dealership and spent $ 25,000 on a new car and not one cent on groceries to feed his family, and how fucked up is that?

[SoCalDem]

231. Education SHOULD be a federal responsibility

It's funded very unfairly now. States that are poor are underfunded and everyone needs a decent education, not just lucky rich people.

[Quantess]

103. A hardworking teacher I know

worked nights as a waitress while she was pregnant with her first child.

[SharonAnn]

188. It's $442 billion for the MILITARY and DEFENSE CONTRACTORS!

Not "Defense".

We don't need that kind of money to "defend" ourselves.

I'm working on changing the FRAMING of these statements.

For example: Outrageously paid CEO's don't EARN $4000 million per year. They aren't even COMPENSATED. They are PAID $400 million a year. It should beg the question, why?

They do not in any way EARN that much. And we don't spend that much on DEFENSE!

[Yupster]

213. Average teacher salaries are not that bad

although that's a matter of opinion of course.

As a former teacher, I wouldn't do it for $ 100,000 anymore.

I don't know what the average teacher in each state makes, but even in backward Texas starting salary is now over $ 30,000 and many, many teachers are making over $ 50,000. That's not CEO slaary, but it's hardly below living wage either, although again, I guess it depends on how and where you live.

[sunniluna]

223. the pay, that's not the problem

i'm going to say as a teacher, living in los angeles, it has nothing at all to do with the pay in regards to why i loathe doing it.

i will say that's the whole trick, you get paid a pretty seemingly decent wage to teach something that you love or a population(i teach special education) that you love or you feel has a need, you think its going to be like it was when you went to school...ok so you go to school and you've majored in something "different" (i.e. useless in real life, of course you thought you'd be writing in some little cool town in paris, but that didn't happen, ok, plan b) like i majored in philosophy, i always knew i wanted to go into teaching (to me while i'm an artist, i always felt artist should give back and do something community oriented, my parents were artist, loved them dearly, but they were completely selfish, that's how artist are, but i wanted to do it differently), so i took the classes that would allow me to go into a credential program in education, while still taking my philosophy classes. now with a degree in philosophy, unless you go to law school, you're not qualified to do much, except teach and of course think, but no one is going to pay you to sit around and think about stuff or even pay you a decent wage to write about it (i'm also a freelance writer, now that's an underpaid profession), so you go into teaching, a fair wage, health benefits, summers offs.

now i think its a bad idea to focus on the pay, the pay in comparison to everyone else isn't bad, no its not a lawyer pay, no its not doctor pay, but most people with degrees in the humanities aren't going to get paid that much, now for a humanities major we are probably the highest paid profession, higher than starving artist, bitter writer, paste together five jobs through the different counties community college professor, my problem with teaching is strictly with the teaching conditions.

there is no way that someone with a degree in the humanities can deal with the kind of scary environment that some classrooms offer.

no one in any of my education classes prepared me to be, threatened with death, to duck swings from students, to deal with teaching assistants who won't do their job, to deal with mentally deranged adminstrators, to deal with the psychologicial issues that a child who is special needs has when trying to pass a standardized test, when his whole life he hasn't been expected to do anything.

the salary, i admit isn't bad, but that's not the problem, the problem is that i'm not given the tools to do my job, i'm not trained to deal with someone who wants to physically hurt me. yeah they sent me to the cpi training (self defense for teachers) but you know, i'm not sure how i'm suppose subdue someone who is almost three times my size and you know what i don't want to, i want to run away. my instinct when someone threatens me with death, is to run away, because you know what, i'm sane, sane people run away from dangerous situations, but teaching has taught me that you're suppose to just sit there like an idiot and let someone pound you into the ground... way off topic...ok when i went into teaching, i really didn't think, i'd spend the vast majority of the time worrying for my personal safety and that's something that lawyers, human resource coodinators, nonprofit managers, etc...don't have to worry about. i think teaching is one of the most dangerous jobs for a person who has a degree. that's the key, we went to college, we did what we were suppose to do, i should haven't to deal with something that someone who took the GED has to deal with, being a cop, you have to deal with people trying to kill you, but you didn't go to school, so that's the breaks, i went to school, why do i have to do this, i won't be doing it much longer, but you this is simply crazy. anyone who is young, who has a choice who stays in this profession or either, st theresa or out of their damn mind or they live in some little tiny city where everyone knows everyone else...big city public school teaching, its madness.

there is no way i could have imagined that nearly one hundred thousand dollars later, i'd have to worry about the same kind of things that a cop working the streets of l.a. has to worry about, that's the thing about this job that i think shocks me, and still shocks me, i'm not a cop, i'm not a military person, i don't know how to defend myself, and i don't think that's what i'm suppose to be worrying about as a teacher, its just unnerving and the most unnerving part of it, is that people are suppose to just be like, "well that's just part of the job." you know bs, that's not right at all, its not normal for people to be threatened in the real world you threaten someone with bodily harm you go to jail, you can get a restraining order on that person, that's reality and while i'm not for kids going to jail, i'd never vote for that kind of thing, i'm not for me being hurt either, possibly i'm just a selfish jerk, but you know oh well.

200,000 dollars a year would do nothing to change my perception, possibly armed guards in the class with me, that would change my perception, i want a body guard for my classroom, so i can teach and the body guard can offer the students suggestions on staying seated and not physically intimidating me.

sunni

[robbibaba]

12. Maybe it's because school is evil

I've been reading about the history of our school system ("Dumbing Us Down" and "Another Kind Of Teacher" by John Taylor Gatto) and it's shocking. Our current system was largely taken from the Prussians. It wasn't designed to educate children. The people who set it up never sent their kids to public schools. The system was designed to make people less intelligent,
weaken or break the influence of the family on the child (especially important because of all the new Catholic immigrants from Europe), and to produce docile workers, soldiers and civil servants who would be uninterested (and unable) to think critically, question authority and organize.
Clearly it has been a major success.
The whole thing was set up by wealthy tycoons, like Rockefeller and Ford, and their greatest achievement was convincing the 'left' to defend this extremely evil experiment in social engineering as 'populist'.
I've come to believe that we need to abandon the whole system. It hurts children.

[enlightenment]

14. If you want to think critically about the issue,

be sure to read other opinions -- or at least some other authors on the topic.

Citing two books by one author (who has tremendous experience as a teacher, but uncertain credentials as an historian. I'm not bashing him, just suggesting that his field may not be history - his bio doesn't specify) isn't a good basis for forming such a strong opinion as, "maybe it's because school is evil."

School may be evil - and Gatto may be absolutely correct; a little more research may prove that out.

(speaking as an evil college teacher of history . . .)

:)

[Star]

15. Gee, how'd you ever learn?

You actually wrote complete sentences using words like "tycoon" and "populist". You know something about Rockefeller and Ford, and you seem to know something about history.

Did you learn by osmosis? Are you self-taught? Surely you couldn't have learned whatever you know from a teacher in the whole system you want to abandon. Did you?

[Bridget Burke]

170. He said nobody was taught Critical Thinking....

Perhaps he's living proof. (I say critically--& so do you!)

I had teachers with varying skill levels. But there is NO WAY I could do the job. Kudos to the good teachers!

[readmoreoften]

21. very interesting

that was my experience. i don't think i entered a real classroom until college.

[sweetheart]

66. yes, mine too

The worst school i was in was washinton junior high school
in Honolulu. As a haole, survival was my only objective,
getting to and from class without getting attacked violently.

Getting across parts of the school involved stepping across
gang-turf, and the teachers would all hide in a room for an
hour at lunch whilst open fighting went on. I watched them
bludgeon one of the other kids near senseless with a 2x4 club,
and i went in to the councellors and asked to quit school,
planning to run away or anything to avoid that horrid prison.

My parents were kind, and took me to a place where the schools
were not quite like that, the santa monica/malibu school district
was much better. That said, in playing sports, and visiting most
of the high school campuses in the los angeles basin, the vast
majority of LAUSD is a total prison.. a place i wouldn't take
my dog let alone a child.

Probably the people who think school is good, went to good schools.

[kwassa]

106. Samohi?

[sweetheart]

114. yes

vikings

[KamaAina]

210. Oh joy. I live right down the street from Washington. And I'm haole.

Every day while I'm walking makai (toward the ocean) on Kalakaua to get to the bus stop, many Washington students are walking mauka (the opposite direction) to get to school. You can tell they're Washington students because of their "uniforms", which in Honolulu consist of T-shirts: green ones emblazoned with an eagle and "Washington Middle School". Especially in crappy weather, quite a few of them are also on the bus -- my bus. Hardly any of them look like gangbangers to me, but now... :scared:

Perhaps the gang turf issue explains why some students get off the bus at Philip St. near the back of the school while others stay on to King, the next stop?

edit: The other day I saw one with a cast on his arm. At the time I assumed he was a skateboarder...

[sunniluna]

225. what

but it's hawaii, i thought it was paradise, who would have thought...i'll pray for you...sunni

[suziedemocrat]

27. Bravo!!! I've got to read that book.

They system does not work. I substitute taught for a year and it was beyond horrible! I started out thinking maybe I could teach for a career change. No way!! I couldn't believe the wasted time and all the effort spent on discipline. The kids are wild - one sub called them feral - perfect word.

The town where I was teaching had two middle schools (6-7-8) of about 1000 kids each. They are merging them so that one school will have all the 6th and 7th graders in town, and the other will have all the 8th and 9th graders. So in 6th grade you will be with 700 or so other 6th graders at school. That sounds like a nightmare to me. The schools are way too big. It is not natural for 1400 6th and 7th graders to spend all their time together. Age segregation to this extreme is very bad - IMO. (And so is putting all old people in the same place.)

After that year - I think homeschooling is a good idea!

[iconoclastic cat]

31. I'd do some research on Gatto first. He's a serious conservative.

[JVS]

77. The Prussian school system seemed to work fine for Prussia.

I don't remember them complaining about bad schools

[genieroze]

143. Here is a similar book free to download

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com
I'm having trouble accessing the site

[clyrc]

13. I lasted 2 and a half weeks

I did the best I could, but it was just a nightmare. I felt bad for the kids who weren't a problem, because I got to spend zero time on them. My husband, a born teacher, taught HS for four and a half years. He loved working with the kids, but other factors (such as an alarming lack of money) made him become a University teacher again.

[readmoreoften]

22. And he's making $$ at a university??

He must be well-published or in the sciences doing desired research. In the humanities, a lot of folks are abandoning the U. for high school teaching because it is impossible to make a living. Good for him!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. I happen to know (from being a long-time DUer) that clyrc's husband

(JCMach1)is teaching English in a foreign country where teachers are well-paid and respected.

[clyrc]

156. Yes, and we still can't believe our luck

JC tried a few other occcupations in between teaching, but teaching is his talent and he always goes back to it. I don't understand the lack of respect for teachers. To me, they are so important, and a good one can change a person's life for the better. I still remember my favorite teachers fondly, even as far back as third grade. My third grade teacher was a wonderful teacher who kept Ranger Rick magazines in her room. I think she understood me better than any other teacher.

[lutefisk]

85. Many Asst. Professor positions start at $39k-low $40k range!

And it doesn't go up very steadily.

[readmoreoften]

92. And look at what you have to do to get that position.

About 2 years ago the Chronicle said that only 20% of Ph.D.s in the Humanities EVER get tenure track (assistant prof) positions. At many universities, a tenure-track position is a far cry for a real job. It's not uncommon for 3 or more assistant profs to be hired for one position. When it comes to the tenure vote, 2 are let go (after 3-7 years of work). The scam at my university is to let ALL of them go and hire more tenure track candidates. Some assistant profships are being used like higher paid adjunct positions.

And, I'll say it again, only 20% of Ph.D.s in the humanities ever get these positions.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

157. Yes, it has become a revolving door system

You spend a minimum of four years beyond undergraduate school, and then you get a job, if you're lucky. It pays you just enough to still call yourself middle-class, and you work yourself silly in the hope of getting tenure. But the dirty little secret is that colleges and universities are secretly or openly replacing tenure-track positions with temporary and/or part-time positions.

An article in the Chronicle of Higher Education a few years back talked about "academic gypsies," people who want to stay in college teaching so badly that they travel the country, going from one low-paying temporary position to another.

When I was denied tenure in 1993, I looked at the jobs available around the country, and they were all of the short-term, low-paying variety. That's when I got out.

[Xithras]

181. I make about $40k

I teach mostly Comp Sci related subjects. If it weren't for the fact that I also own a small consulting business, I'd have quit teaching long ago. My consulting business makes more money than teaching does, but I love being in the classroom.

BTW, there's a real need for math teachers at the uni level right now, and across much of the country uni's are paying top dollar for math professors. Why? Because very, very few people get a masters (minimum) in MATH! When CompSci was a part of most colleges math departments (pretty standard up until 20-30 years ago), it was easy to get people to major in math. When CompSci was broken off into a separate discipline, the number of math majors plummeted. Most of the pre-split math majors who went into teaching are now at retirement age, and there isn't enough of a degreed population to replace them at this point.

It's a real, and rapidly growing, problem in the US.

[Ms. Toad]

189. That's odd.

It was only 10 years ago when they were experiencing a glut of imported math profs (who were filling the previously anticipated shortfall caused by the retirement of all of the Sputnik profs). It's why I did not pursue a math degree at that time (entering the work force as a new PHd at age 40+, competing with a cast of thousands for the available positions did not seem prudent to me - especially since I would then be just a few short years from a child entering college).

[MurrayDelph]

16. I did 2 years, 1 month in Watts

over 25 years ago. When I quit I was going through a pack of Rolaids a day. I think I have gone through a grand
total of about four packs in the 25 years since. I moved into teaching adults for a computer company that no longer
exists. Now I work at a sysadmin for a shop that still uses some of those computers.

[BrklynLiberal]

18. Teaching and Nursing, 2 professions mostly women, are the ones that

are the most underpaid and under-respected. I do not think this is a coincidence.
These two professions are among the most important in our country. One holds the future of our children, and the other guards our health.
They are both horribly underpaid, and disgustingly under-respected.

I have been aware of this for years, and have commented on it to many friends. To think that dimwitted movie stars and abusive athletes are getting paid millions and millions of dollars each year to provide nothing but negative role-models, while teachers and nurses must struggle, hold down more than one job, or abandon their profession entirely in order to support their families.....There just are no words to express my disappointment and sadness at what is happening.

Public education should be the Golden Light, the shining example, the best of the best should be teaching there, and the students should all be given what they need. I realize this is just a fantasy, but we should at least be making some attempt to keep our citizens educated, and healthy!

[NJmaverick]

42. Nurses are OVER PAID not under paid these days

They make a very good living these days.

[bmbmd]

48. Thats's great news!

I'll tell all of my RN and BSN friends that they can relax.

[BrklynLiberal]

84. Riiight. It is just so easy to provide one's family with all it needs on

what a Nurse makes!!!

[BrklynLiberal]

76. Then why are they all quitting after 3 years and going into other

professions?
Do YOU think you could feed, clothe and house your family on a nurse's salary.

[NJmaverick]

90. They are not quitting after 3 years

They may leave the hospital setting for easier jobs, but they are not leaving the proffession.

[BrklynLiberal]

113. WRONG.

"The study indicates that new nurses begin their careers with higher levels of job satisfaction, but the workplace itself seems to be convincing growing numbers to leave the bedside earlier in their careers for other professions," said Julie Sochalski, Ph.D., RN, associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing. "We know the nation is facing a shortfall of nurses. If new RNs are leaving the profession after only a few years, the shortage is likely to reach crisis proportions sooner rather than later."

http://www.upenn.edu/researchatpenn/article.php?435&hlt

[NJmaverick]

127. Really?!?!!?

You should read the article you posted.

o in the most recent nurse survey, 7.5 percent of new male nurses dropped out of nursing within four years of graduating from nursing school, compared to 4 percent of women;

Now compare that to 50% for teachers.

[BrklynLiberal]

150. Yes. Really.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2271697&mesg_id=2273066

[sunniluna]

173. nursing you guys win

its not just the money in nursing, which in l.a. is pretty good (not nearly as good as it should be for dealing with the public, especially if you do ER), but the other insanity, the hours a week you have to work, the stress of dealing with sick people, all the nurses i know have some kind of odd addiction issue (food, drink, pharmaceuticals), that in no way is a judgement, if i had to do that job and had access to prescriptions to calm me down, i'd be a "pharm" girl too, but to me its not the question of just money, but would you have the mental faculties to raise a family after a day of nursing....

that is one job, when i'm in the classroom, being threatened by my students and degraded by adminstrators, i think, "well at least i'm not a nurse."

sunni

[AnneD]

81. What a crock.....

How much is a plumber paid...$50 bucks an hour? Bet he gets more for OT, weekends, and holidays. I bet he doesn't have to pay for continuing education courses out of his own pocket. I bet the company pays for his uniform and maybe they send it to be cleaned too. I bet he doesn't routinely work 12 hour shifts. He might face a few spiders or a snake-but has he gotten Hep C or Aids or SARs from his job. He might attack the pipes, but has he been attacked while doing his job. I bet plumbers don't have the second highest back injury rate (dock workers the highest). Did you know that UPS delivery workers do not lift over 50 lbs without assist. Did you know Nurses are routinely ask to lift 100 lbs WITHOUT assist.

I get $35/hr straight time less ($20) with the school. I live in Houston, not a cheap place to live. Since the OT laws have changed I get NO extra pay for weekends, holidays or nights. I have to provide my uniforms and pay for my CEU's (can run into the hundreds of $$) to maintain my liscense. Yeh, I can get more $ (0.50/hr) an hour for that BSN or ($1.50/hr) MSN, but it is not cost effective.

Years ago, NOW did a wage parity study. The decided that Nursing is close to engineering. I think that is a spot on camparison. How many engineers make 40K? Most start out at 50-60k. After 10 yrs they can be making 70-80 even 100K. They can end a career making 110-150K.

I started out making 32K in 1991. All during the booming 90's nursing wages were flat with wages that did not keep up with inflation (2-3% merit raises). The law of supply and demand seemed to work every where else but Nursing. After 17 yrs and a few job changes I am at the end of my career and making $50K. Yes, I be rolling in the dough:eyes: Now, buy a house, raise a kid and pay for their college, and pay for a retirement on that!

Oh and I am not dissing plumbers-I have crawled under the house and have done my own plumbing before (couldn't afford a plumber). I just think it reflects on our priorities that plumbers are paid more than nursing. We will be in a world of hurt if we ever have a pandemic. Frankly, I won't be coming in for that party. They will have to arrest my butt, cause frankly, my give a damnis just about busted.

[BrklynLiberal]

83. I agree with you 100%!!!!!

[NJmaverick]

91. What a crock!

The average salary of a plumber is $18.00 an hour. Your salary looks pretty damn good by comparison.

[AnneD]

93. Plumbers get more now here..

as do body mechanics, UPS worker, and AC repairman.

Even if it is $18, if I take an hourly job at the school it is only $20, thus I opt for the $35. Up until 2000 my hourly WAS just $15-20.

A plumber does not required to have the same educational level or maintain it through continuing education, maintain malpractice. I know I have submit my CEU (at least 20) every 2 years to get my license. A plumber is not held to the same level of accountability.

Further more, if he screws up, they send out the master plumber (the $50/hr guys), if I screw up, I can kill someone, lose my license or both. It will involve court time, lawyers and without insurance, I can lose everything I own (I know several Nurses that have). Now put THAT into your calculations. That $35/hr is not enough.

[bmbmd]

95. So this neurosurgeon comes home late at night

to find his house flooded. He finally finds an after-hours plumber who comes to the house, fixes a pipe, turns to the neurosurgeon and says "That'll be two thousand dollars." "Two thousand dollars!" the neurosurgeon sputtered. "That's more than I make in ten minutes, and I'm a neurosurgeon." "Yeah", says the plumber. "That's more than I use to make when I was neurosurgeon, too."

(posted by a guy who paid his plumber $2200 dollars yesterday)

[BrklynLiberal]

108. Yeah. Being a nurse is just a bowl of cherries!!!

http://forum.cybernurse.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78

[NJmaverick]

119. So is pciking lettuce

Last I checked though, nurse got paid considerably more money.

[AnneD]

132. If I got that fabled $50 per hour to pick lettuce...

and got it regularly-I'd take the lettuce. I have done farm work (chopped cotton to be exact). It is tiring no doubt, but a whole lot more peace of mind.

[BrklynLiberal]

110. Nurse Shortage May Reach Crisis Sooner than Thought

Study of U.S. Nurses Finds Young Leaving Profession; Nurse Shortage May Reach Crisis Sooner than Thought

In one of the most far-reaching studies of the current state of nursing, a University of Pennsylvania researcher has discovered that newly minted nurses are leaving the profession at far faster rates than their predecessors, suggesting that the current shortage of nurses may reach crisis proportions sooner than anticipated.

One additional surprising finding is that beginning male nurses are leaving the profession at twice the rate of women. (I would bet that is true because the men are more likely to be the breadwinner in a family AND they are more likely to get better paying job outside of nursing.) The research, which analyzes data from the National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses collected by the Division of Nursing in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in 1992, 1996 and 2000, is reported today in the influential health care policy journal Health Affairs.

"The study indicates that new nurses begin their careers with higher levels of job satisfaction, but the workplace itself seems to be convincing growing numbers to leave the bedside earlier in their careers for other professions," said Julie Sochalski, Ph.D., RN, associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing. "We know the nation is facing a shortfall of nurses. If new RNs are leaving the profession after only a few years, the shortage is likely to reach crisis proportions sooner rather than later."
<snip>
"One might predict that this new cohort of nurses may be destined to see their satisfaction levels sag over time, which, depending on the market conditions, may influence decisions to continue in their position or to leave nursing entirely," Dr. Sochalski reports in Health Affairs. "The accelerating rate of loss in the supply of nurses, at a time of substantially increasing demand, underscores the need to determine the reasons for the exodus. And while men may not yet comprise a sizable number of the total who are leaving, the growth in their retreat from nursing is nonetheless concerning." (What are the odds that the men are leaving due to the LOW PAY?)

http://www.upenn.edu/researchatpenn/article.php?435&hlt

[Yupster]

215. People may think that if they pay a plumber $ 50

for an hour's labor that he is getting $ 50.

They don't realize his employer gets the $ 50 and splits it with him. Even if he owns his own business, he doesn't get the $ 50. Part of it goes to the cost of running his business.

I guess you could do the same with teachers and say if a teacher has 22 kids and the state pays $ 8,000 per kid, then the teacher is making $ 175,000 +.

[TX-RAT]

117. Thought you were my wife for a second.

Ya both growl alike. LOL

[BrklynLiberal]

151. The hospitals should fire the over-paid, fat-assed bureaucrats & give

the money to the Nurses who do the REAL work in the hospitals.

[Bridget Burke]

171. Perhaps the Medical Administrators could get together with the ....

Educational Administrators.

I'm not sure where--just away from the hospitals & schools.

[BrklynLiberal]

175. YESSSSSSS!

[BrklynLiberal]

82. Nurses are overpaid? You consider $34K to $39K overpaid??

Considering your life, and/or the life of one of your loved ones may be in the hands of a nurse someday, I think that you would want the very best you could get. I believe that would mean paying a VERY GOOD salary and hoping that they would stay at the job long enough to become experienced enough to really know what they are doing. And, if any profession DOES deserve to be overpaid, Nurses are near the top of the list.


These stats are by a group that is trying to recruit, so they are probably not this good. And this is for REGISTERED Nurses, not Licensed Practical Nurses who make less. The median expected salary for a typical Licensed Practical Nurse in the United States is $37,028.

Registered Nurse Salaries

Staff RNs working in the United States average a median base salary of $41,642. Half of all US RN's are expected to earn between $38,792 and $44,869. Nearly 67% of nurses are employed in hospital inpatient and outpatient settings. 32% of all nurses are employed in medical offices and clinics, home healthcare agencies, nursing homes, temporary help agencies, academia, and government agencies.



Nurse 3+ Years Starting Base
RN $47,110 $39,000
Staff RN $44,200 $37,000
Master Level $59,600 $49,700

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/

[NJmaverick]

89. Yes, yes they are

Not many professions that one can get such high starting salaries with just a bacholer degree. I used to work in a hospital. Had a degree in engineering, managing a staff of 30+, salary (so no OT or compensation for extra hours) and hand 10+ years. Yet nurses right out of nursing school were STARTING for more money. They also got OT for any extra hours and shift differential for off hours. So yes they are paid very very well.

[AnneD]

96. The new labour laws have been changing that...

Many are not getting OT, and shift diffs. And not to dis a management job, but overseeing 30 is not the same as taking total responsibility for 8. Without Nurses, hospitals would not exist-everyone would be taken care of as outpatients.

[NJmaverick]

128. So you think nurses are more important than anyone else

you think their job is tougher than anyone elses. Hell managing 30 people is nothing compared to taking care of 8. Sorry I am not buying into that.

[AnneD]

134. Not to dis...

but folks come in to hospitals for Nursing care that they cannot get anywhere else. Think about it. If people did not need care-everything would be done outpatient. I am sure you are a good manager-but folks did not come to the hospital for you management skills-they came for care-specialized care. Hospitals have been built around providing care and medical services. Yes, in a hospital I think the Nurses rank almost as high if not as high as Doctors (they are with you 7/24). Nurses are managing your case until they can get in touch with the Doc. There is a direct correlation between the Nurse: Patient ratio and pt survival. The more Nurse time a pt has, the better the odds of survival. Haven't seen that correlation with Doc or managers. Why do you think Hospitals work so hard to get Nurse Magnet status.

[BrklynLiberal]

111. How many life and death decisions did you make each day at work?

How many actual lives were dependent on your skills each and every day?

Just because you may have had a job in which you felt you were underpaid, does not mean that everyone else around you needs to suffer as well.

[NJmaverick]

121. Actually quite a few

A nurse screwed up and one patient can die. I screw up and dozens or more can die. Amazing the how uninformed people are as to what goes on in a hospital.

[AnneD]

166. So what dept do (did) you head up

I know if maintaince screws up and attaches the wrong tanks (O2 Nitro, etc)it can cause a problems in surgery and those on O2 as can maintaining power. But what do you do (or did) that was so important that you felt you were so underpaid?
My experience has been that they cut everyone first but the Nurses and the Nurses have to pick up slack (we do ours and everyone else's). They cut back on Respiratory therapy, Lab Techs, and Housekeeping, and unit secretaries and we inherit those jobs plus our pt care. It lowers the bottom line the CEO's get more money in their pocket and we burn out faster. Same thing in teaching. We had to let some janitorial staff go so now the teachers are cleaning up their rooms (sound familiar Nurses). I think female dominanted profession ARE undervalued (which translates to underpaid) and do not garner the respect they deserve.

[TX-RAT]

167. Had a degree in engineering, yet you were over a staff of nurses?

Interesting, could you explain in a little more detail how a person with no medical training, ends up supervising a nursing staff?

[NJmaverick]

120. 6 years ago they were STARTING at 50K plus

Years ago nurses were under paid. Now, thanks to nursing shortages, they are now overpaid. Few hospital employees make what they do.

[BrklynLiberal]

152. Wrong again. Average starting salary for an RN is $39,000, so some are

making even less than that.

Are you just making stuff up as you go along?

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/

[AnneD]

168. Not so in ANY place I have ever worked....

School Nurses in our large urban school start at 38K and it was 26 when I started in 94. When I started in NM in 99 it was 24 (oh, but I got paid in sunshine too:eyes:). My salary averages 10k less than floor Nurses. The reason why I get what I do now is that I do not have the wage compression that most Nurses do. And as a state employee, I will receive a defined benefit pension, which just about every Nurse I know does not.

Rural hospitals are not going under because of outrageous Nurses salaries any more than school districts are having financial troubles because of teachers salaries. The causes are underfunding and poor management.

[knitter4democracy]

101. Go do it and come back and tell us that.

Seriously--do you even know what the job entails, what hours the average nurse works, and how many workers comp issues they have?

My hubby's an MD, but he paid for college by being a nurse's aid in nursing homes. He knows how hard a job it is, especially for RNs supervising all those under them, checking on patients, lifting and cleaning patients, and dealing with doctors and family members.

Oh, and it depends on where you work, that good living you're referring to. Many hospitals are cutting nurses left and right and squeezing those who are left. They'd rather pay higher malpractice insurance than pay their nurses.

[NJmaverick]

122. thanks to the over priced nurses

Hospitals are CLOSING. They can't afford the staff. I worked for a hospital that closed. The nurses never could get their over time coss under control and they got raises when no one else did. In the end they contibuted to the institution's down fall.

[knitter4democracy]

139. *sigh*

Yes, let's all blame the nurses's union. Let's not worry about bad administration, overpriced consultants, bad p.r., malpractice insurance, poor reimbursment rates, and high bureaucracy costs. :eyes:

Look, I understand that hospitals are closing, but it's ridiculous to put the blame on the nurses when there are so many issues involved. Low nurse staffing levels lead to bad patient outcomes, but hospitals would rather spend more on malpractice insurance than make sure the patients are okay and then cut nurses left and right. Then they wonder why no one wants to go there and why doctors work on getting admitting privileges elsewhere. Not enough patients means not enough reimbursement. It's a balancing act, and many of the doctors in the hospital administrations know nothing of business and the balancing act it requires.

Nurses keep our medical system running. They do more and more with less and less every year. More and more get out of the places we need them most because the job's so bad, and patients suffer.

[BrklynLiberal]

153. Right on!!! The insurance companies had NOTHING to do with this

situation! It all has to do with NURSES..of all the employees to blame..
:sarcasm:

I would bet that hospitals can manage better with fewer bureaucrats than they can with fewer nurses.

[AnneD]

169. I bet ...

your hubby is a Doc that Nurses love and respect. He sounds like a gem. I think everyone going into the medical field should work for a time as an aide. I too worked my way through Nursing school as an aide. It makes you a better practioner.

I don't know what would be good training for teachers. I can't decide between day care work or hand to hand combat:spray:

[knitter4democracy]

180. Sometimes I think karate would help.

It teaches how to stay calm in all situations and how to deflect others' anger. I'm sure it helps the teachers who practice it. ;)

Hubby got into a top-tier med school because of that. The interviewer told him that anyone who can be a nurse's aid in nursing homes for that long must love medicine and love patients. He does. He does get some flak from some nurses (he orders many tests), and he has trouble with others (who don't call him when patients spike a fever he should know about), but for the most part, he gets along with the nurses in the office and the ones in the hospital. Not only that, he's getting referrals from them, which must mean something. :)

I can't help but brag--I'm very proud of him. :D Of course, if my nurse friends call me and tell me he's messing up at work, he'll have to deal with me at home, and he knows that, too. :evilgrin:

[libodem]

109. Is that sarcasm?

because you are not making any friends here. I've been a nurse for nearly 20 years and what I have been up against is the wage compression. A new grad, on a temp license, came on board making more money than me. That is a huge slap in the face. I had to fight just to get what the new hires were being paid. Then someone from division, had the nerve to say they had just given me 'a nice raise'. A nice raise would have included longevity of 13 years...not what new grads without licenses were making.

[NJmaverick]

123. I am looking to tell the truth

If it offends or upset people so be it. I am not about to start lying. I spent 15 years in hospitals and still am associated with medicine and public health. So I am in a position to know what goes on.

[TX-RAT]

116. My wife doesn't agree with you at all.

Just what do you think the average salary for a nurse is?

[NJmaverick]

124. Studies have shown no one believes they are over paid

That includes pro athletes that make millions for playing a game.

[Yupster]

216. Very true nomad

Everyone thinks they have it tough and everyone else has it easy.

I taught for nine years and would never do it again, but I didn't quit because of the money.

Anyway, I bet if I became a plumber I'd quickly find out their job is no easy paycheck either.

[TX-RAT]

118. Boy did you just screw up.

Never ever piss off a NURSE, been married to one for over 30 years.

To the Nurse's on this board.

Forgive him/her, for they know not what they speak.

Now i will run like hell, think i'll play in the Gungeon where it's safe.

[NJmaverick]

125. yeah I agree over paid and spoiled

Work with nurses for 2 decades now.

[NC_Nurse]

165. What do you do?

[AnneD]

136. Two words...

Arnold Swartzenegger...He pissed off Nurses AND Teachers. Wound up this orthopedic shoe prints on his sagging ass and flat feet from teacher mashing him.

Knew an ICU once that had a miserable day one. Was mugged on the LONG walk to her car. The hospital cops came up as she was beating the shit out of the robber and he was pleading for mercy. They had to drag her off of him.

[BrklynLiberal]

154. Wow! Those are not the two words I would have quoted.

:rofl: :rofl:

[BrklynLiberal]

204. This morning on AAR,Rachel Maddow examined the imminent crisis in the

Nursing profession.

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/

"Also, this week marks National Nurses Week. In our weekly segment sponsored by the Service Employees International Union, SEIU Nurse Alliance President Cathy Singer Glasson joins us to talk about why nurses are leaving the profession in droves."

[NC_Nurse]

164. Excuse me? Overpaid?

That must be why most of us are leaving our profession as well.

Nurses are better paid than they used to be, but not nearly paid enough for the responsibility we have and the workload. We are still underpaid. Hate to break it to you.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

201. On what planet?

I live in a part of the country where we are well paid in comparison to other parts (nurses start at $45K or so here and about $60K if they work nights), but do have any idea the level of knowledge and responsibility being a nurse entails? Do you think doctors sit on hospital units in the event of an emergency? It's nurses who make decisions. It's nurses that do everything from a large part of the grunt-work (bedpans, cleaning barf, etc.) to administering and understanding the physiology behind medications, oxygen administration, etc. Physicians make orders and are skilled surgeons, but we have to interpret those orders, clarify them, and MAKE SURE THEY AREN'T MAKING MISTAKES. Most people now days can't even make it through nursing school. It's very demanding. Beyond demanding. Given what we have to know, you bet we're not paid enough.

Next time you or a family member is hospitalized. Thank a nurse. She's doing most of the work.


I used to teach young children a few years back (another degree in eaarly childhood education). Didn't pay enough to even support myself at the bare minimum.

[gassed]

54. More underpaid...

than Social Work?

[BrklynLiberal]

74. Another profession that is predominantly women! Another coincidence?

[NJmaverick]

126. no social workers are under paid

nurses just think they are.

[alarcojon]

190. Amen to That!

:toast:

[pitohui]

19. it's just getting ridiculous

you are supposed to have your master's degree just to keep your job, come on, what for do you need a master's degree to teach second graders, the teachers are being drained by having to be in endless debt chasing never ending credentials that eat your life and your time

i don't blame them for getting out unless they really like working during the day and then still going to school to get more education at night, jeez, it's no life at all if you have any interests outside of your career

hell even a librarian around here has to have a master's

i like the poster who said the teacher son is going to become a plumber -- more money and you can actually have a life outside of work

[LostinVA]

26. Of course librarians have to have an MLIS -- they're professionals

Another profession misunderstood and very underrespected.

They've had to have that degree for many, many years. Again, a profession with many women and underpaid. What's happening here is libraries are having non-MLIS staff do professional-level work, which isn't fair to them to to the degreed librarian they are trying to easel out of hiring. Just like nurses and PAs being made to do doctor's jobs in ERs. It is fair to NO ONE involved.

[Stuckinthebush]

49. As a teacher of teachers...

I can say that a Master's degree is highly valuable....or an EdS.

Research into pedagogy is always on the move, and the Master's student learns more about how to teach effectively as well as getting more detailed information on certain subjects. Second grade is an important year for students in reading and basic math skills. A 2nd grade teacher with a Master's degree has more pedagogical knowledge than one without, therefore, better able to help children at all levels become ready to move on to more complex material starting in 3rd grade.

Now, my two cents....we should pay teachers 50 to 100k per year. When you pay more, you are saying to society, "This is valuable!" Well, the problem with education in the US is that we...all of us...don't see it as valuable as business. We moan and complain about the plight of education but we have communities that fail to approve a small fraction of a raise in property taxes for education. We complain about discipline problems but don't provide the funds as a society to ensure that classrooms consist of only 10 to 12 students. A class of 30 students is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Education is extremely important. We know that the better educated a person, the more able that person is to critically analyze their world. Public education should be one of the top priorities of our society because a poorly educated society ends up putting fools in power (see beginning of 21st century - United States of America).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. I agree about the better pay

In Japan, public school teaching is the highest-paid job a new four-year graduate can get, and only the best students are allowed to be certified.

There are other cultural differences, of course, one of the most striking being parental support for learning.

[Yupster]

218. Wish you would have seen my master's classes

They were worthless as far as making me a better teacher.

The students were all public school teachers looking to get their masters degrees so they could raise their pay. The classes were at night. The professors knew who the students were and just made it as painless s possible. Got out an hour early normally. Few tests, few serious papers, little learning.

Overall I considered it a scam of the taxpayers that the professors and teachers were cooperating in.

PS - This was at two local four year state colleges in two different states.

[Yupster]

217. I got my master's in curriculum

and it was hardly a burden.

Completely worthless educationally, but got me an extra $ 100 a month or so. My wife has her's too. We both have left the field though.

[JCMach1]

20. the More Educated part is BS-- these are largely education courses

Which add little to the quality of education in the schools.

Many teachers are woefully ignorant of the their own teaching fields.

Speaking as a former public school teacher who took numerous education courses-- their value was almost nil when facing an actual class.

Today's stringent requirements on teachers creates a whole new subset of ongoing worthless education. Major courses would be much better for teachers.

Between the stress and the bureaucracy it is little wonder that teachers burn-out so quickly.

[knitter4democracy]

43. I hated my education classes except for two.

Mainstreaming actually taught us how to deal with children of all needs and issues fairly well, and Curriculum was overall very valuable.

Other than that, they were a waste of time and money. I used my English classes, my history classes, and pretty much everything else far more than I did my education classes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. That was the consensu of the future school teachers among my

college classmates.

There were too many B.S. courses about educational theory and too few practical courses. The students who were training to be high school English teachers complained that at my college, the English methods course was totally useless and that they learned the most about real-life teaching, classroom discpline, and feasible projects from the woman who taught speech/theater methods, because she had recent experience as a high school teacher.

[fishwax]

145. I know dozens of teachers for whom the education courses were quite useful

and they were better teachers because of it. They are mostly elementary school teachers, though. Then again, come to think of it, I had some teachers in high school who had great mastery of their field but would have been well served by a better understanding of pedagogy.

[JCMach1]

160. Teaching is very much an Art, and therefore is difficult

to theorize, or quantify...

But, we know it when we see it!

[Ms. Toad]

192. Don't take the worthless education courses then

(after you get your certificate). At least in my state, either education or subject area courses qualified. I earned my substantive masters degree completing the required continuing education courses.

(I agree with you that the education courses were totally worthless - once I was past the initial certification I just found a way to take meaningful courses rather than junk as soon as I could.)

[Yupster]

219. Same experience here JCMach

My education classes in college were not very helpful in preparing me for the classroom. They certainly didn't compare in content learned or work required to history or science classes.

They were a great place to meet the football team though as they were most often education majors.

[SKKY]

23. When I retire from the Military in 5 years, I plan on teaching...

...and taking advantage of the Troops To Teachers program. I'm not at all worried about the
classroom, to be honest. The lacking salary does concern me a bit, but as far as the problems
I'll be faced with, I'm not concerned. To me, if you're going to sacrifice a much better
paying job (Which for me would be something in the Network Security field), you should probably
want to be in a position to make a difference. I can't see myself making much of a difference in a
mostly white suburban high school. I'd be much happier teaching "at risk" kids. THAT'S where
you make the difference. But, as many teachers I've spoken to have told me, I'm naive. So be
it.

[adigal]

29. If you have very clear expectations for behavior

and enforce the little rules from day 1 (such as late to class - I pitch a fit the first kid late to class, and then they worry what I would do for bigger things, which rarely occur, because the kids know I pitch a fit for little things) I taught 9th grade inclusion with LD kids and ED kids mixed in, and had a partner teacher with the same expectations I had, and we never had a problem.

Be clear, be firm, and take care of the little things.

And good luck. Email me if you ever have any questions. :)

[SKKY]

36. What I've been told by 3 Troops To Teachers coordinators from...

...different states is that someone from the military has an advantage in that
we tend to not get "rattled" too easily, as opposed to a new teacher just out
of college. Other teachers who've become teachers via more traditional channels
confirm that. I look at it like anything else- if you set a tone early, and are
both consistent and fair, you're likely to do well. At least that's been my
experience thus far.

[adigal]

64. You are absolutely correct

and Good Luck! We need more thinking, tough teachers who are not afraid to ask the kids to excel.

[shrike]

176. One of my best teachers was an ex-marine

He taught biology, physics and the general sciences, and you're right, nothing could rattle him. And he made class so interesting -- I still remember things he taught me. He was tough, too; once I wrote a paper I was very proud of, and though he gave me an A, he remarked that he "went over all the formulas twice" to make sure they were correct.
The troublemakers actually loved the fact that they couldn't "get over" on him. We had a boys' home ec at our school, and they were always coming up with concoctions to feed him. One day they made the hottest, most peppery spaghetti sauce you could make. He ate the whole plate, smacking his lips, and said, "Boys, next time put a little more hot sauce in that."

[Yupster]

220. Good advice adigal

Assuming you know the content of the course (which is not always a sure assumption), a new teacher's success or failure will pretty much be 100 % based on his/her classroom management, classroom discipline.

[iconoclastic cat]

32. Poor bastard. Godspeed.

[knitter4democracy]

44. I taught with a vet.

He'd put in his years as a helicopter pilot in Germany, and he was a good teacher. He didn't do well with the other teachers, though--didn't work well with women (talked down to us constantly and didn't even listen half the time) and bullied the principal (was an alum, so she just loved him).

His results were good, though. He taught math (he had an engineering degree from West Point), and the kids said he was really good at breaking things down and making it understandable. He also was really good at school spirit stuff. He went to all the football games and did pushups for every point scored down in front with the cheerleaders. The kids loved it.

You will have a rough transition, but I'm sure you'll be great. Just remember that schools only seem military-like--they're really far from it. Techniques that work in the military don't work in schools or can't.

[SKKY]

55. That doesn't surprise me actually. The Army is very, very different...

...from the Navy. I think the thing I will bring the table is the ability to adapt in just about
any situation. The Army is very, very by the book where I find the Navy much more "fluid" (no pun
intended). Obviously, the majority of the "techniques" I might have learned (or had beaten into me)
wouldn't apply or even be effective. As far as getting along with other teachers. I suppose it
depends on the person really. There are people I don't particularly get along with here at work, but
we all still have a job to do. With regards to women, I think most men are still fighting the
fact that women are in fact smarter than we are. At least that's what my wife tell me to say! :smile:
As far as rough transitions go, I don't think so. Spending 10 months on deployment with 3,000 marines has
"cauterized" me to just about anything I think life could throw at me. Having said all that, you don't know
how much I appreciate the insight you and others have given me in this.

[knitter4democracy]

100. As long as you're able to balance things, you'll do great.

You sound like you have it in hand and are able to balance your realism and idealism. No, things aren't easy in that job, but there are worse jobs. Being able to go with the flow is hugely important--education is what happens in between all the million interruptions.

[2Design]

50. your retirement salary will equal what most teachers are paid

I can see why you don't worry about salary - you will have one the taxpayers are already paying - teaching will give you more social program benefits - this is a pathway most republican voters take - they continue to have government paid jobs and benefits - the military people are given first choice in any government job -

your miltary retirement pay will be what most have to do a second job - so it will be financially easier for you to concentrate on your new career

[Bridget Burke]

172. Well, the military earn their retirement pay.

Should he give up what he has earned to be considered a Democrat?

Or should he just collect his retirement & go play golf?

Good for him (or her?) for a retirement plan that will benefit society.

[SKKY]

198. Do I read a tinge of animosity in your post?

[fishwax]

146. That's cool. Good luck to you.

:yourock:

[SKKY]

199. Thank you fishwax! I'm looking forward to it!!!!

[sunniluna]

224. that's great

aliberalsailor,

i think that's great, i teach in an ed (emotionally disturbed) class and while everyone thinks i'm doing a good job, i sometimes feel that i'm not connecting with my students, its just very hard as a woman with an ecclectic background dealing with the kinds of issues that these children have to deal with.

i think that your military background (and probably size) will serve you well teaching at risk youth, possibly you were an at risk youth, that i think would be great, that they can have visual representation of what hardwork with guidance can do.

good luck to you, i'm getting out, but i've told my guy friends, that more of them should go into teaching, the kids do need you.

sunni

[vssmith]

24. Think that asshole that ran ExxonMobil

owes any of his success to teachers. If he was any kind of man he would donate a large share of his ill-gotten gain to education.

[adigal]

28. Not me - this year is 15 years

and I now have to go to work!! But I love literature, and I love teenagers, so I am fortunate to have fallen into this career.

Good day all.

[knitter4democracy]

47. Yay for English teachers!!!

"English teachers teach reading, writing, thinking, and dreaming." That's what the 1997 National Teacher of the Year said, and it became my motto when I taught.

[Lerkfish]

30. no offense, but I always scratch my head at how dissatisfied teachers

are with their profession and salary. (some teachers, that is)
Not that I don't think they have valid points, but all I ever hear is the bitching from some. We have a couple of friends that are teachers. One complains endlessly. Finally, one time she told us her salary, as if to shock us at how low it was. My jaw about dropped! It was more than my wife makes, by half, yet I never hear my wife bitching about salary. She recognizes she would like to be paid more (wouldn't we all), but it doesn't consume her whole perception of her job. The other teacher we know works for the same distict, so I assume the same salary, but she doesn't ever bring up her pay. She talks a lot about her kids and their learning situations.
:shrug:

I think some teachers SHOULD quit, if they are that unhappy with their profession, because that has to bleed over into how they teach and or treat the kids and that isn't helpful. If teachers are unhappy with their salary, look around, the economy is not going all that well. Many people in other professions are having to double workloads, accept pay or benefit cuts or are getting downsized. Entering the non-academic job market is no picnic, either.
And, as far as someone else said in this thread, how someone said "thank you" to them in their new bank job, I've worked for decades without a thank you. I don't need it to do my job. My thank you is my paycheck.

look at any profession or job out there, and everyone will admit they would like to be paid more. Then, observe how many of them answer that question and then move on.

[iconoclastic cat]

33. I think you'd have to try it to understand.

I don't think that you can conceive of the atmosphere at some of these schools. Don't be so quick to dismiss the complaints.

[Lerkfish]

35. I think you'd have to try to reread my post.

We have friends who are teachers. I'm not in a vacuum with no access to information of how it is at schools.
Now, admittedly, some schools are bound to be worse than others, but MY point was about salary complaints, mainly.

I don't know a lot of other professions that spend as much energy trying to convince me they're underpaid.

[iconoclastic cat]

56. I understood your post.

I think that one of the problems is that teachers believe that if they were paid more, the conditions might be worth it. One's sanity and self respect cannot not be paid off, however, which leads to complaints about salaries which may seem illogical.

[Lerkfish]

97. good point.

[DUHandle]

41. Sure, some people should quit their jobs if they don’t like them

That would include teachers and lawyers and butchers and bakers and candle stick maker. There’s malcontents in any field.

So far as bitching about salaries go, well, that’s not unique to education.

So far as actual teachers salaries go, the pay is not “jaw dropping”.

[Lerkfish]

45. only "jaw dropping" in contrast to the self-characterization

and the reality.

The teacher made 36K a year, my wife 27K. That was about 4 years ago.

Jaw-dropping only in terms of how much this person talked about being underpaid, to the point we thought it would be much, much lower.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Where do you live that 36K isn't underpaid for a professional?

I taught college, and I wouldn't teach in today's typical public school system for any money.

[Lerkfish]

87. Ohio. and I did not say that wasn't being underpaid.

I said from the self-characterization this person went through, I expected the actual salary to be much lower, to be in proportion to the level of complaint.
Its a comment on expectations based on the amount of complaint, it is not a comment on what I think a fair wage for a teacher would be.
If it were up to me, Teachers would get paid as much as professional athletes. And I would get paid twice that. However, its not up to me, I have to live with the world as it is. Do I want more money and do I feel I deserve more money? hell, yes. That doesn't make it so. And therefore, since it doesn't, I don't feel the need to remind other people with how underpaid I feel I am.

Look, its fun to try to paint me as some sort of ogre that wants to steal teacher's salaries, but that's frankly not true. I trust people to read what I said. If there is a misunderstanding, can't do much about that except re-explain myself.

:sigh:

[frankenforpres]

147. 36 k for 9 months

i know there are some things to do in the summer, but 36K for 9 months is 48K for 12.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

159. Except that they don't actually GET the 48K

Saying that they WOULD earn 48K in 12 months is $12,000 away from saying that they actually DO earn 48K.

That's a favorite bit of typical conservative faulty logic.

And about those vacations? I taught on the college level, which is far less stressful than K-12, and by the time summer rolled around, I was ready to spend three months lying around on my balcony.

These days, if you want to hold the students' attention, you have to put on Sesame Street every day, and in my subject area (Japanese), there were few textbooks, so I had to write a lot of my own materials, revising them every year when certain aspects were outdated or didn't work in class. Because I was conscientious, I assigned daily homework (the average student thinks s/he doesn't have to study if there's no homework), so that the students would do the daily work needed for studying a language. Unfortunately, this meant grading the daily homework.

I tried to stay on campus until everything for the next day was done, and a good day was one when I could leave by 6PM.

That was just the teaching. Then there were the endless committee meetings and the expectations to do research.

As I said, I was at the EASY level of teaching.

I really don't know how K-12 teachers survive these days.

Anyone who thinks teachers have it easy hasn't ever been one.

[frankenforpres]

178. i teach undergrads also

while finishing my ph D, i think it is simple and i like it. it is the easiest part of my job. i wouldnt compare it to teaching K through 12.

[frankenforpres]

184. lol@me

i posted last message in the wrong spot

[DUHandle]

183. No. You're wrong

36K is 36K.

Annual salary is on W2's.

It's not "like" anything other than what it is.

[Ms. Toad]

193. It may only be 9 months,

But for a good part of those 9 months I put in 80 hours a week, some weeks and years it was 100. That's more than double a standard 40 hour a week job for the full year.

That said, I don't believe the pay is unreasonably low. It would be nice if teachers were valued more - and that value was reflected in both or either the paycheck or support for what we do (rather than having to battle for administrative and parent support).

What does get me is the "you only work 9 months" excuse used to put teachers in their place, and to justify lower salary than comparably educated employees.

[lastliberalintexas]

62. What does your wife do?

Was she required to obtain a master's degree for her profession? If so does she understand the pay differential between her profession and others for which similar credentialing is required? Does she have a boss (ie, the principal) who almost invariably blames her for anything that goes wrong, whether her fault of not? Does she have elected officials looking over her shoulder all the time? Does she have to put up with parents who think that little Johnny can do no wrong (never mind that he is a gang member)? Does she spend her evenings and weekends doing work that she couldn't fit into her "normal" workday? Does she spend her "off time" scheduling parent-teacher conferences, attending seminars, taking continuing education courses or even chaperopning kids around to extra-curricular events? Does she have to wonder every May if her contract will be renewed so that she'll have a job in August (most states do not have tenure)?

Nope, I'm not a teacher. But anyone who thinks that teachers are paid commensurate with their education and/or responsibilities (much less overpaid) needs a reality check.

[Lerkfish]

86. not at liberty to say...but why are you attacking my wife?

one of my agreements with my wife, who does not get on the internet, is not to reveal personal information about our child or her.
I'll answer your other questions:

no, does not need a masters (keep in mind I was never comparing the occupations, as they are vastly different, merely the salary).

does she have a boss that blames her for everthing that goes wrong? as a matter of fact, she does, and so do I. Not sure how that's germaine to complaints about salary?

does she have elected officials looking over her shoulders? Not politicians but yes, govt. bureacracies, and depts that are very stringent.

no, she is not a teacher so little johnny being in a gang is not one of her issues, obviously.

Does she work evenings and weekends? yes. But, she's not off for 3 months in the summer nor extended spring and winter breaks, either, so not sure what that has to do with complaints about salary?

Does she attend seminars? Yes, in fact she runs a few. She doesn't chaperone kids to extracurricular activities, though.

Does she have to worry about whether she'll have a job? in fact, yes she does. Her company just laid off over thirty people, some in her dept. More layoffs are looming. For the record, Non-academic jobs do not have "tenure", unfortunately.

to your quote "Nope, I'm not a teacher. But anyone who thinks that teachers are paid commensurate with their education and/or responsibilities (much less overpaid) needs a reality check.":
I would suggest you need to reread my post. Never did I say that. In fact, I pointed out I feel nearly all of us are underpaid.

The difference, if you'll note I said, is that I don't see a lot of other professions who wear "underpaid" as a badge that goes with their profession. If you know of a particular profession who does, please share.

[adigal]

63. Did you wife have to get her Masters Degree

to keep her job?? Pay for it herself?? Have to do several hundred hours of further training every 5 years to keep her job (in NY, this is the norm.)

If she is only making 27K with a full time job that demands a Masters Degree, then that is a shame. As is a teacher, a professional, making 3K a year.

[Lerkfish]

78. no, no, yes.

[knitter4democracy]

104. It is when you're a private school teacher.

My starting pay for a full time high school job in the fall of 1997 was $18,600. I finally broke $20K in my third year of teaching and did a happy dance.

I wasn't paid over the summers after they changed our contracts without our consent (no union), I wasn't reimbursed for anything, and they didn't pay for any materials other than the textbooks. I had to buy pencils for my students to have in class.

Oh, and because it was a Catholic school, the medical plan said that they would refuse to pay for anything that compromised my fertility--even to save my life. Yeah, that was great. :eyes:

Public teachers still don't make enough, but the private are in the tank when it comes to pay. One Baptist school I interviewed in offered me $12,300--and wanted me to start two entire new programs, teach a grade level below my certification and training, and moderate a new club.

The only reason I went with the Catholic schools is because there weren't any jobs in the publics--over three thousand teachers had been laid off in the region the year before, and most of them had contacts on getting anything that opened up. I was new to the area and knew no one. I took the best teaching job I could get, knowing full well that a manager at McDonalds made more than I did.

[knitter4democracy]

37. I only made it through three.

When I got preggers with my daughter, we did the math and figured out that it would only cost about five thousand more (ended up being seven) in med school loans for me to stay home with her. It was worth it, as I was about to go crazy.

I was in the Catholic schools, since I couldn't get into the publics in the Cleveland area at the time. I didn't have any contacts, and thousands had been laid off the couple of years before. I was lucky to get a job at all.

Still, I think about going back sometimes. Then I remember the parents and the constant problems that I couldn't solve. I think I'll stick with teaching knitting and working on opening up my own yarn shop.

[underpants]

39. Happy NATIONAL TEACHER DAY!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1137914&mesg_id=1137914

[one_true_leroy]

46. *gulp*

I've just been accepted for a Master's in Math and Math Ed. On one hand, I think I'm born for the subject, field, and career... Math is damn near religion with me and I'm "infectiously passionate" about it (not my words). I've spent years since undergrad studying it on my own and learning to learn it. Money's not an issue... no family and any salary's better than a scientist at a university.

But...

How does one compete with what passes for culture these days? I don't watch TV. Rarely go to the movies. Usually frown when I listen to commercial radio. I want so much to be able to go into a school and get just one good student a year... one student that I can show the 'light.' Saving souls for Pythagoras. But how am I to wade through the masses who are just punching time 'til they're 16? Not that I don't want to reach them, but are they even reachable? How does geometry compete with the twits on TV? How to explain that math is so much more beautiful than any of the artifice elsewhere? And how am I to hold my tongue about policy, etc., when I've been so outspoken?

[DUHandle]

51. One

you share your enthusiasm, that'll get their attention.

Two, shouldn't really talk politics and other like matters in any work place.

Three, Geometry isn't Math.

[one_true_leroy]

67. not politics, policies...

I was one of those students who would've been in a lot more trouble had I not been the best student in school. When the intelligent design crap first hit the schools (I'm a Georgian), I vocally called it crap and sat out in the principal's office rather than go to class on those days. Wouldn't go to pep rallies and called them the biggest waste of time. Carried around (and read) Henry Miller ('cause it wasn't allowed in the library). That sorta thing.

Geometry not math? Are you trying to pick a fight? I'll rumble... :)

[DrZeeLit]

53. Just think. Somewhere "out there" is a student JUST LIKE YOU... and

you will find that student.
And ... you WILL make that student's eyes light up at the sight of a chalkboard full of lines and planes and equations.

That is the dream of the teacher.
And that is the good news, and the bad news.
I know.
I lasted 20 years, teaching jr high English.

And I didn't do it for the money. Even though I was a single mother. For the money, I did everything else -- like go back for my Masters and my Doctorate, and teach night school, and run around the state doing corporate training, and sign up for every extra gig they could throw at me.

No, I did it for love. For the moment when, every 200 kids or so, the light would actually go on over a head. I could literally see that light shine in a student's eyes.

I had classes that made me want to scream, and classes that made me cry -- in a good way. Once, on one of the worst days of my life, I sat at my desk crying quietly behind a book while they wrote something I don't remember. What I do still have in my hands is the note, scribbled on a torn piece of lined paper, that they passed through the class. It said "we're here for you if you need us." And they all signed their names.

You won't change your personality. You'll speak out. You'll stand out. You'll stand up. You'll be brave. And maybe you won't last, or if you have a really, really thick skin, and a lot of personal resource and resilience, you'll stick around for awhile.

I finally burned out -- on so many levels. Mostly, it was fighting the traffic every morning, but really, it was more about me searching for that light to go on over my own head.

Now I teach college freshmen how to write. And I love it. I truly LOVE my work.
This I can do forever.

[DuaneBidoux]

69. Can you tell me how to get a job in corporate trainiing?

I've been looking for a job as a corporate trainer for 6 months and can't seem to "get in" anywhere. I have 8 years experience as a trainer for contract with National Seminars in computers and Microsoft Office and some other training in "Vision and Goal setting" and "excellence in work."

[CheshireCat]

60. I taught for 15 years.

Teaching was my life. For 6 years, I taught high school. For the remaining 9 years I taught mathematics and computer programming at a two-year college. From the beginning, I loved teaching, but the stress kept increasing, along with political interference. I had no time for a personal life except for a few weeks in the summer. Of course, I had to tutor and do other work during my vacation time to keep my head above water financially.

By 1998, I was totally burnt out. No longer did I have the time to spend on teaching. Too much time was spend on lesson plans for administrators, meetings & classes to teach us how to teach, and running the computer lab (no $$ to hire someone to run it)

After a breakdown, I went to work as a web developer and programmer, thinking that after a few years I would return to teaching. That was 8 years ago and the only way I would return to teaching is if it was my only means of support. Most of my colleagues think programming and web development is stressful. Man, does that make me laugh. When compared to teaching, my job is a "pie" job. Sometimes old friends will say something to the effect of "So, you finally left teaching and decided to go to work." If they only knew. Teachers work harder that many CEO's, but they are given no respect and low pay.

To those of you still teaching, my hat is off to you. You do the most important and one of the hardest jobs in our country.

[Ms. Toad]

194. Ditto - for 11 years

Different second career. Same song, different verse. Much harder work - much lower pay. I might go back and sub someday when I retire from my second career - but no way in the district in which I used to teach.

[RedStateShame]

65. If anyone can help

I have a degree in English, would absolutely love to teach high school English. Unfortunately, I also have exorbitant college loan debts, so I don't know how I could go about earning a living while trying to become certified. Suggestions?

[Ms. Toad]

195. Substitute teach

In many states you can get a temporary certificate for 1-5 years if you have a college degree, and can then substitute teach. Around here you could sub nearly every day of the week and if you do a good job, it is likely you will get a long term/permanent position that pays a bit more. This option also has the benefit of testing whether you really want to teach. Far too many potential teachers don't hit the classroom door until after they have invested several years in education classes - too late to easily change career paths. Take classes at night.

Depending on your standard of living, you could get by. Teaching in urban schools pays more - but is much tougher. They eat substitutes (at least in my experience in an inner city school). Suburban/rural pay less, but subs are generally respected.

Good Luck! (and if you want to replace my daughter's English teacher - who we "fondly" refer to as Mr. Psycho - we're looking for a volunteer.....)

[Yupster]

221. Suggestion not so much for you, but

for other young people reading this, if you're going to get a degree in a liberal arts major like english, history or art, then please get your teacher certification at the same time.

Even if you don't want to teach, you must eralize that the main occupation of history, english, art majors is going to be teaching so it's worth the extra credit hours to get the education degree too.

[sunniluna]

226. sub, debt

in l.a. you can get into a special program and they'll put your loans on hold, i think some programs if you teach in a school that is more "challenging" they'll forgive them all together. lausd, look into it.

though if i were you, i'd look at the private school route (though you're a guy, you're not going to be able to live or date on a private school salary, if you notice most private school teachers are married to someone with a nice job or have trustfunds, won't see to many people with loan problems teaching at private schools). anyways at a public school you're not going to be teaching english the way you think, especially if you are trying to find special programs to forgive your loans, those nice schools are set aside for people with parents who paid for their college and don't have student loans or for people who are related to an adminstrator. for those of us who have to pay for our loans and don't know anyone, well read this list, you'll get the picture, the schools were you can actually teach, those are set aside for the people with hook-ups, unless you have a degree from Yale or something.


sunni

[LibDemAlways]

70. I lasted 5 years, and that was over

20 years ago. I had to get out for the sake of my health and well being. I had 8th graders put dogshit on my chair and steal my keys. I had a high school junior tell me "You suck" to my face when I refused to change the "D" he had earned. I had one paranoid principal tell me the whole faculty was out to get her because we enjoyed socializing after school. I had another faculty member I shared a classroom with go ballistic on me and scatter my books and papers around the room for no reason. I was required by one principal at a private school to give up my free period to take over the class of a teacher who'd been in an accident - for the princely sum of $5.00 a day. The same principal pressured me to change grades because he was being hounded by parents.

It wasn't all terrible, but enough of it was that walking away was a no-brainer.

Today I'm raising a child and always make it a point to thank my child's teachers for all their hard work. Teachers take a hell of a lot of abuse and criticism and get damn little positive feedback. If you have children and haven't done so in a while, take a few minutes to tell their teachers how much you appreciate the work they do. It'll make their day.

[Tight_rope]

72. We would rather pay more to be entertained, then to be educated.

If there is one thing that I've always bitch about it's teachers being under paid, while movie stars, athletes and entertainers get all the big dollars. It's a sad society we live in.

[trudyco]

75. Looking from the other side...

I have two elementary age kids, one in Sped. My perspective is that the system is broken.

Teachers should be paid well - but they should work FULL TIME(no summers off, only 2 weeks vacation initially, more generous sick leave because they are exposed to a lot of germs, but otherwise like any other entry level white collar job). They should have more student teaching time before becoming a teacher (and should be paid for it at a reduced rate like a summer intern) because I suspect that is more valuable than classes. They should have a mentor in the district who they can go to for questions and no judgements. The district should have a policy for parent volunteers so that some teachers aren't using parents to do their grunt work so they only have to work 7:30-3:30. I think creative teachers are the most likely to burn out and teachers who enjoy control/organization are the ones most likely to stay. Of course there are exceptions. Anyways, those creative teachers should feel as energized as the organizer types. There should be pilot projects using innovative and maybe "out there" solutions every year that those teachers can get involved in. The projects should not be dictated by NEA or NCLB or a slick ad campaign by a cirriculum company or any of that crap. They should have some simple accountablility to their effectiveness.

Bad teachers - there are some out there and once they have tenure they are hard to get rid of. Maybe the teachers of the district should have a board that disciplines and can even fire a teacher. Some parents feel Unions go too far because they see one bad teacher and know they can't be fired. Administrations can get embroiled in the office politics. A board of your peers with nobody on it from your particular school might be the right thing to clean up the bad apples.

Behavior - there are so many components to this. A good teacher can handle behavior in an elementary school in a suburban area (where most kids are reasonably disciplined at home). Kids with true mood disorders are put on drugs. There are alternatives out there that work but the system won't allow them to be implemented. Our school is into grouping desks into "tables" for collaboration. Frankly all I see is disorder and cheating. The grouping is made for socializing but then the teachers get frustrated when the kids get rowdy and socialize.

Cirriculum - The cirriculum is harder and much more sequential auditory processing (teacher gets up and lectures) than when I was a kid. Now in 3rd grade the kids have never had a textbook or a workbook. They get various ditto sheets. i know the teachers THINK they are teaching multi-modal but 10 minutes of manipulatives and 50 minutes of lecture is not multimodal. A lot of things get thrown by the wayside because they aren't on the standardized test, but I believe they are building blocks for things that are on the test. For example, at our school they don't care about spelling. There is a spelling test for the week but it has no logic and there is not much care put into it. Same with printing/cursive writing. PE is all about learning a different sport of the month (emphasis on keeping them from being Obese I guess) but there are wonderful nuerodevelopment PE programs out there that could help with learning. In math they throw story problems and complicated instructions at the student but don't bother making sure the basic math facts are ingrained. Dyslexic students drown (and they often then become behavior problems). What is bizarre to me is that the school responds to average test results on the standardized tests with more homework (fob it off on the parents), less recess, and cramming for specific subjects like paragraph writing. They don't say "hey, our cirriculum doesn't work either in toto or for specific large groups - how do we go about fixing it? Who is doing best practises in the district or state? Is it our implementation? Is it the cirriculum in general? etc" . They are very reactive and not proactive.

I think some of the SPED alternative programs out there are not considered because the schools are afraid they'd have to pay to let everybody use it. The SPED administrators fight with knowledgeable parents for services, delaying testing, arguing with results, delaying IEP dictated services, giving kids too little contact time, - this fighting goes on as a rule. Why can't the school work with industry and private individuals to have a nonprofit fund that gives grants to try innovative solutions? We have something like that but the fund is weak and most of the grants go towards behavior programs and bandaids. Same old same old.

[phylny]

115. Interesting you should say that teachers should get no summer off.

I'm a speech-language pathologist who's worked in public schools, private clinic, hospital, private practice, and early intervention for a county. All SLPs are required to have a master's degree, and work for a year as a fellow with supervision.

We're most likely moving to Virginia again, and I'll most likely work in a public school again. It is, without a doubt, the most difficult environment for me to work in.

One thing I promised myself is that I would not work summers if employed in a school district ever again. My caseload at that district was at one time 58 children. That's 58 children seen once, twice, three, and in a few cases, four times a week. Fifty-eight progress notes four times a year. Fifty-eight IEP meetings once per year. Fifty-eight re-evaluations ever three years. Oh, and I screened speech and hearing for every Kindergarner, third, and fifth grader in the school, did evaluations on all children referred for testing, and consulted with teachers regarding all children on my caseload and many who were not. Oh, and I forgot to mention that all teachers were required to work UNPAID after school hours a few months before standardized tests to tutor students so they would pass the mandatory state tests.

It came to the point that I'd begin getting depressed at 4 p.m. on Sunday because of the work that I brought home for the weekend that I couldn't stand to look at. I brought work home every evening as well. Every evening and every weekend because I didn't have enough time to finish my work during my workday.

Yeah, work summers. That's what I really wanted to do while doing my CEU requirements to stay employed. Sigh.

Oh, and in the third grade in the school that I was in, which was populated with ESL and minority students, many of whom were poor, third grade was the time when they were required to begin learning from a text. Of course, this school put in time and money, unpaid by all teachers, to teach and implement a very successful reading program.

[sunniluna]

138. creative vs organized

I do agree with creative types getting burned out, the time of the creative teacher is over, with all the tests, paperwork, etc...you can't be creative in the classroom without someone coming in and causing you grief on a regular basis.

Also, summer, that's got to go, we have to realize the society has changed, the kids need to be in school all the time, with longer hours, its going to be hard and painful, but if we want the kids to be educated that is what needs to be done.

But the problem with longer hours and no summers is that school districts would have to treat teachers like human beings, people would have to be rewarded for good work, people would have to be fired, wasteful things like freaky waste of time and come in and go on about nonsense lady, she'd have to go away, since she's a waste of everyone's time, and simply taking away valuable education time.

But like some poster said, educations purpose isn't actually to educate, so you know, whatever...

sunni

[aikoaiko]

79. These are broad generalizations but ....

Teaching is a thankless, underpaid job and many parents have abandoned their responsibility to educate their children. Having said that, teachers and teaching colleges seem partly to blame.

I am an academic psychologist and teach at a master's level univeristy. I get many educational majors at the undergrad and grad level in my courses and I am almost always dissappointed in the quality of education majors. There are a few stars. I hear stories about their courses in the Education college and the courses are weak. Students who can't pass my psychology courses are getting As and Bs in their major courses. Sadly, it seems like education majors are motivated more by the desire to be helpful than to educate.


flame suit on.

[JVS]

80. Teachers should set up their own shops and tell the schools to go to hell

We don't expect all doctors to be attached to hospitals, why shouldn't teachers run a private practice?

[wellst0nev0ter]

88. Teachers Are Overpaid; They Should Be Paid Like Babysitters

since that's all they are, glorified babysitters.

Okay, so if teachers sit in a classroom of 25 kids for 6 hours a day, 180 days a year and the prevailing rate for babysitting is $3 per hour per kid, then the teacher should be making. . .

hmm $81,000 a year.

Okay, so they're underpaid. I blame the teachers' unions.

</bushtard>

[dmallind]

98. Well let's look at some data

According to this survey the average teacher salary is about $47K. They seem to like to compare themselves to accountants, who average slightly more (57K)

http://www.aft.org/salary/index.htm

Teachers are in classroom contact - their primary job role - approximately 180 days x 6 hours or 1080 hrs. (YES I know other duties exist outside classroom contact - hold on - I'll address that later) for approximately $43.50 per primary job hour

Accountants, let's say with tenure average 4 weeks vacation/PTO plus a generous 10 statutory holidays or primary job role 230 days x 8 hrs or 1840 hours for approximately $31.00 per primary job hour.

Now let's look at that extra work. I've never taught, but my wife's (large) family is heavily made up of teachers. I know several socially, and I was a customer of teachers for many years. They certainly DO do extra work. Grading papers, working out specifics of curricula and projects. It certainly takes time. Now however I have spent my career in businesses that include the supposedly "comparable" professionals such as accountants, engineers and so on. The idea that these people DON'T work additional time is ludicrous. Drive by a big office block on the weekend - there's going to be a few cars there at least. Ask people in these jobs if they ever take phone calls from customers or bosses, if they ever work evenings or weekends (with no overtime or comp time) to make deadlines. They ALL do. The 40hr work week does not exist in today's workplace for any responsible professional, let alone travel requirements. Now do they put in AS MUCH time as teachers? It probably varies. Some do, some don't. Depends on both the teacher and the professional in other jobs. However note that the teacher needs to put in 760 hours per year - over two hours every single day regardless of school session - just to meet the "comparable professional's" PRIMARY job workload. That's a LOT of papers - it would come out to be over FOUR hours of grading and prep for every single day school is in session just to be equal to the work hours of comparable professionals stated. That's a teacher who could use some time management training for a start. I suppose it's possible a few teachers do this - I'm sure for one thing some will claim to on this thread - but is it normal? Certainly none of my wife's family demonstrates, or even claims, that level or anywhere near it.

Educational requirements? Business professionals have them too. I maintain certifications from both APICS and ASQ. Each one has a requirement that I spend a certain number of hours in training to maintain. My bosses (and I in turn for my direct reports) ALWAYS have training and education goals on reviews (a GOOD thing by the way). An MBA and 5 professional certifications do not exclude me from this requirement, nor should they. We all need to continuously learn and refresh our knowledge.

Now let's look at other things than base salary. How many veteran teachers are downsized or terminated compared to people with equivalent years in other professions? How many other professionals have a pension plan that guarantees 66% of final income after 30 years on the job - for life? That's not a common thing in the private sector any more. If we're lucky (and we save our own money) we might get a match for the first 3% of our 401K contributions. Using that 57K for accountants as a career average and a historical 11% annual gain over those that means the company benefit would be a lump sum of about $340K (not quite as I'm assuming equal payments - would probably be a bit lower assuming income growth over that 30 years rather than 3% of 57K every year - as the earlier contributions based on a lower income would return lower compound interest than if they were based on the average income, but hey, let's be generous). If you can find an annuity that returns $31000 per year guaranteed for life out of $340K let me know - and that's basing the teacher's pension on the average salary only!

So yes a teacher's gross income undercuts comparable professionals if you look only at one factor - education level required. If you look at job security, pension, and above all time spent, it's not that bad of a deal.

Truth is, like every other job, teachers' salaries are driven as much by supply and demand as by anything else. If fewer people could or would perform the job, salaries would rise. Ironically, the best way to raise teachers' salaries is to raise the demands and expectations placed on teachers so fewer people could do the job.


EDIT - YOu could pay me $100K and give me all the bennies and job security and time off a teacher has and I would not do the job. I am neither fond enough of kids nor fond enough of such a bureaucratic environment. Teachers do indeed have a tough job, but I doubt that salary level really makes that much of a difference to job frustration or they wouldn't take the job at that salary in the first place. I started off my career about 20 years ago making $18K. I now make comforatbly in excess of $100K. My frustration level is about the same, but in both cases is far less than it would be if I was a teacher I'm sure - but that's just me. If I loved kids and thrived on bureaucracy the pay would not stop me at all. I've worked for less, and would again if I had to. I agree with one of the above posters who said that whines about salary are just misdirected frustrations about the job itself. Next time a teacher complains about their salary, ask em if $20K more per year would make the job any less frustrating. Sure they'd take the money, but would it change their opinion or frustration much? I doubt it. hasn't done so for me in my own jobs at any rate.

[sunniluna]

137. agree

i agree with alot of stuff here dma, the facts are the facts in regards to pay.

my problem with teaching is the working conditions, no one should have to be in fear of their life for a paycheck, if they raised the salary to one million dollars a year, health benefits forever, i wouldn't do this job another year, not one more year.

in l.a. all of the longtime teachers i've met, they are either insane or they drop dead of some horrible illness, right after they stop teaching. i don't want that in my future, i haven't met one happy retired los angeles teacher, they are all out of their complete minds or dead, neither is one i want to experience...i wouldn't want to live until i'm 200, but you know, well you know what i'm saying...

i just got off work, from a day from H E two sticks, so i'm a bit chatty sorry...

sunni

[frankenforpres]

149. education level requirements

can we be realistic and admit that getting a masters degree in education isnt really the same as getting a masters degree in accounting

[fishwax]

161. uh, yeah, right

the only thing difficult about any of my accounting classes was the teacher :eyes:

[last_texas_dem]

162. Also

Many teachers get their Master's degree in the subject area in which they teach, not in education. In fact, this is often expected of teachers who are teaching any Advanced Placement courses, simply to be permitted to teach them.

[Yupster]

222. I have a master's in curriculum, and

I consider it a joke.

The master's classes in education were nothing like the master's classes in history I took as far as workload, library hours, or benefit.

[CornField]

155. When a CPA has to purchase

office supplies -- not only for his/her own personal use, but for all the clients who can't/won't provide their own, I think your comparison will be more valid.

Also, when other professionals come in on weekends and after-hours on weeknights (or work the same from home), they are doing so in order to advance their career. The difference with teachers is that such after-hours work isn't an exception for only those who wish to advance their careers, it is a requirement of the profession.

The salaries being paid to teachers are beyond horrific; however, let's face the facts, the salaries being paid to the majority of American workers are beyond horrific.

[Ms. Toad]

196. Most days I arrived at school by 7 and did not leave until 5 or 6.

And then I generally still had papers to grade and preparation to do for the next day's classes. The year I kept scrupulous track of my hours I regularly worked between 80 and 100 hours a week. (I was tracking my time in order to establish to the administration that it was not realistic to require me to prepare to teach five different classes every day, so this is not a "guesstimate.") Most years it was probably closer to 60 hours a week (that is a "guesstimate - I didn't track those years, other than generally being at school for 10-11 hours a day.) As a comparable professional in my second career, I don't put in anywhere close to that kind of time.

No, not every teacher puts in that many hours. In fact I was probably one of few that put in that many hours. But, it IS more common than not for teachers to stay at school for 8-9 hours a day and then to still take work home, and to work over the weekends.

[hunter]

94. My wife and I both taught. We don't anymore.

My biggest problem as a teacher was that my student's behavior was essentially unpredictable to me. The only way I could keep order in my classroom was to be very, very strict. There was a wall between me and the kids that I couldn't get past and I hated that.

My wife is an extremely gifted teacher, but she couldn't teach at the level she wanted to. I found this was frustrating as well. We were both teaching junior high school and a shocking number of the kids couldn't read. In some cases they actually couldn't read, that is if you asked them to read out loud in class they'd be sounding words out like a first grader, but in many more cases they had zero comprehension or retention of what they read. There wasn't anything going on inside their heads when they read -- no connections being made.

The most upsetting thing about teaching is that you end up being a social worker, but you rarely have the satisfaction of solving any problems, and you don't get paid for it. I used to call or meet with parents after school and it would just about kill me emotionally. Too often a kid who was simply being a nuisance in my class was living through some kind of hell at home, and I had no power at all to fix the problem. I was endlessly hopeful for some kind of normal meeting, one where a parent would thank me for going to the trouble of calling and alerting them to a problem, but instead it was like, "My boyfriend's in jail for hitting me, f--k the judge, f--k the cops, f--k my landlord, f--k you, and we're moving in with my f--king sister, and I just don't know what to do."

I almost enjoyed dealing with parents who were simply jerks, the ones who insisted their little angel couldn't be in any trouble, and that any problems their child had in my class were my fault. I could say, "Look, your child doesn't turn in his homework, and his classwork looks like this." And then I'd show them. Usually these kinds of parents would then dismiss anything more you said, but at least you didn't take it home with you. It wasn't the kind of problem that gnawed on your heart.

I went into teaching because so many teachers had been very important in my life. I quit teaching because there were too many days when I had nothing left to give, where I felt like I hadn't accomplished anything.

In many places teachers are on the fringes of civilization, at the bleeding edges of our society, and they don't get any recognition or support. Altruism takes some people further than others, but as a nation we shouldn't depend on that.

[CheshireCat]

99. Unions & tenure

For those of you who feel that teacher unions and tenure have a negative effect on K-12 public education, please take note.

I am a life-long resident of South Carolina who taught for 15 years. South Carolina has always been at the bottom of the list when it comes to education.

In South Carolina, there are no teacher unions. We have the local version of the NEA (SCEA) and other organizations, but SC labor laws make such them toothless. I will not go into South Carolina's relationship with labor unions in this post, but most residents consider them to be a tool of communist. During my years as an educator, I seldom heard a positive word spoken about teacher organizations. They have very little power.

Public school teachers do not get tenure. If they want you gone, the administration or school board can find a way to fire you. If you belong to the SCEA or another teacher organization, they will assist you legally. However, the cold hard fact in South Carolina is that teachers have no power. In 15 years, I saw many teachers fired, but I never saw a teacher get their job back.

SC teacher salaries are low. We used to be at the bottom. In the 1980's, I witnessed a school district fire teachers after they got advanced degrees. They were replaced with beginning teachers to save money.

Here's my point!

Outlawing teacher unions and ending tenure for teachers has done NOTHING to improve K-12 education in SC.

[hunter]

102. 'Firing bad teachers" is a right wing canard.

So is "paying better teachers more money."

The truth always come down to crushing the spirits of workers to depress overall wages.

They really don't care about bad teachers if it gives them a political excuse to pay all teachers less. If the education system stinks, they can say "Why should we pour more money into it?"

Fundamentally I think the rich and powerful in this nation don't want an educated populace.

Educated people can see through their lies, and won't put up with so much shit.

[last_texas_dem]

163. I agree

I'm always amazed at the dumbasses who make statements like those, especially those wanting to tie teacher pay to how well the students do on standardized tests and the like. Yeah, perhaps if all classrooms were created equal... that's a laugh, of course.

[knitter4democracy]

105. I taught in a non union school.

Never again. It was awful.

[TrogL]

107. I only lasted three years

• I shouldn't have been teaching - you need to be an extrovert (I'm INTP)
  
• impossible working conditions - infrastructure
  
• the principal hated my guts - thought my subject was a waste of money
  
• kids thought school was a waste of time, they expected to be in the oil patch making more than I was
  

[BrklynLiberal]

112. kick for more discussion.

[Blue_Tires]

131. yeah, i've been shut out in my chosen career

and i've started to sub teach (my mother the teacher pushed me into it)--it's been a VERY eye-opening experience

[sunniluna]

133. oh and on the topic of special ed

i teach special ed, i've always taught special ed, things that surprised me, the assistants have more power than the teachers.

they are older, have more pull and can tell you things like, "shut up b*tch, i've been here for twenty years, i know this person and that person, you'll be gone in a year..." very nice, hey i understand that just because you have a degree doesn't mean that you are the expert on all things, but in special education you need to have assistants, they don't exactly teach you how to be a supervisor in "teachers" college or how to deal with insane politics....

i got sick of getting hurt and being physically exhausted from my autism kindergarten class, i thought, "i'm not going to make it, i'm going to be dead by the time i'm 35 if i keep doing this" since i had to do all the work of the paraeducator, since she was diabetic, overweight, and protected by the union (that's great, i'm not antiunion, but the administrator should have put her in a class that physical work was not required), so i've got 5 runners and a kid that can't move, that's five years old and weights 110 (i'm 115) and an assistant who can't lift, can run, can't do anything, i thought this was insane, i asked for a new position...ok fast forward a year, i'm teaching emotionally disturbed kids, way off my credential, but my plan, go back to school, get credentialed in that, start a new, without changing diapers and things...ok yes i knew when i signed up that it was going to be challenging, but i had no idea.

ok, they give you this training, which included you have an assistant, they tell you, never, ever be in the room by yourself, these kids are emotionally disturbed, its very dangerous for you...ok, alright, we're all on the same page, the college, my district, so day one on the job, my assistant calls out and my other assistant is moved to another classroom, i do a such a good job by myself, well they regularly leave me in the room by myself.

where for six hours a day, this is what i hear "f you, f you, no f you, you're weird, you're this, we're going to get you fired, i'm not going anywhere, you can go to hell, you can kiss my ass..."a tirade of all kind of creative insults, then "we're going to snap your neck, we're going to key your car, we're going to cut your brakes, we're going to kill you, are you looking at me funny, because i'll slap you..."

go to the administrator and what happens, um lets see, they tell me this "hey they are sed, so you know, you have to expect that, make sure they do all their work...going to lunch now..."

i say, hey i need an assistant, they tell me, hey we're short, we all need assistants...so sometimes they send me some untrained assistant who seems to be trained at nothing more than pissing students off, yeah once they sent an assistant in who challenged the kids, he was going to "get tough" they threw the desk across the room, and tore everything off the wall, sometimes i call out "sick", because i'm a little stressed, when i come back everything is destroyed, trash everywhere, posters ripped down, i put everything back, but you know i'm one of the luckier teachers, or so i'm told, because the kids do like me.

as soon as i find anything, scrubbing toilets, ripping chewed up gum off the concrete with my teeth and then swallowing it, i'm getting the hell out of this job, i thought general ed might be more pleasant, but for some reason i don't think it would be...all of these degrees, all of this money and this is the kind of environment i have to work in every single day....

oh yeah and the added bonus of psychologists, social workers, parents, program specialist thinking that the whole problem with your students wanting to kill you, is because you're not doing your job, oh yeah, because of everyone in the whole education system, teachers are the most stupid, we had the worst grades in college, its all out fault...

that, just puts the icing on the cake, we have to deal with the kids all day in the classroom and have outside staff who visits once a week (or less) look down on us like we're the incompetent ones...

i did want to educate, i did want to help, but you know what, i'm pretty sure that at least with the education system the way its set up right now, especially for special needs kids, there is nothing that can be done, this is all lipservice, its all a completely joke.

i'm pretty sure one of these kids is going to physically hurt me one day, i'm not scared of them, but you know someone cursing at you, threatening you, you tell them they have to do an assigment, well that just seems to add up to me getting pounded into the ground one day...i used to be scared, now i'm just on the edge of insane.

sunni

[bmbmd]

200. Thanks for sharing your story.

My wife teaches junior high art in a neighboring city. She drives about fifty miles a day, and teaches in a system that pays $1000 above state minimum.. She is also certified to teach all-level special ed, and is considering relocating to our home town to teach special kids-no commute, eleven thousand dollars above state minimum. (no art jobs available here) After reading your story, she may reconsider.

[sunniluna]

135. oh more insanity

yeah, i remember one day i was in my class, i had to go the bathroom and get some food, i told them today, i need a lunch, i need a freakin lunch, you get one, i want one too, 15 minutes....

so who do they send...

oh yes the principal's daughter (she's from a country far away, she's been here nine months, she's 19, she's an art student at the local college, wonder how she got a job as an assistant, it takes years to get on the list...)

she comes and and tells me, she's here for my lunch break...i give her the bathroom keys...i come back...she runs out....later i come to find out she gave them the bathroom key and let them by themselves go to the bathroom, so they vandalized it.

the place i work at is all special education, all severely emotionally disturbed, i give the assistant the keys, i assume that hey they get that the key is not for students, i also assume that anyone who works there would know students aren't suppose to just roam the halls, do they even do that in general ed?

anyways...i wasn't mad at her, she's young, i understand, i tell her a real freakin obvious, students are not suppose to roam the halls of a lock down facility, lock down, you get it...ok good...


two day later principal comes up to me (the principal who has never taught in the classroom she went the psychology route), she talks about communication, she said that her daughter came to my class and asked could she take her lunch first and i just left her there...what?!!!
oh and since i left her it was my responsibility to tell her not to let the kids use the bathroom key, and not to let the kids roam the hall. didn't know it my responsibility to tell your kid to not be a moron.

oh so this is my fault, anyways, i tell the principal yeah sure...next time i'll do my job, since this was obviously completely my fault.

so next time her daughter comes to my class i'll say

don't let the kids smoke crack in the class
don't let the kids have matches and burn the classroom down
don't let the kids watch porn on the dvd player

stuff like that, so she's clear of the rules and things, because apparently they aren't obvious to her, because she's new (though she's assisted in my class before when i was there and i'm pretty darn sure that i didn't let the kids use the key and tear of the bathroom, but i'm a little stressed, so possibly i did do that, and i simply forgot about it...)

sunni

[hunter]

144. Do you have any support, sunni, especially outside of school?

My wife and I could go home and find some sort of peace at the end of the day, maybe pretend for a few minutes that tommorrow wouldn't bring new horrors.

At the end of some days I'd be drenched in sweat, and it wasn't because there was no air conditioning. Okay there was no air conditioning, but the hot days were sorta okay -- the kids simply wilted by sixth period.

We had a nice health plan, yes we did, but the problem was that we needed it.

[sunniluna]

185. support

i do have support, my boyfriend is very supportive, he's terrified, he wants me to quit, he's constantly calling at around 5pm, are you alive, what happened today, you really have to get a new job...

oh yeah today, a student almost hit me, i told her she couldn't tag the bathroom and she handed me her marker, she decided she wanted it back, she said, "b*tch give me back the marker" lots of times, then she followed me to my class, the behaviorist came out, right as she was walking towards me, i really hoped she would hit me, because i knew if she hit me.

a. i know i'd get a regular assistant
b. she'd get the kind of level of care that she needs, that this environment is obviously not providing
c. i need a break from being threatened with murder

but "luckily" the behavior stepped in right before she connected, wow, where was he last week, oh whatever, i'm being too sensitive...

anyways, she did get suspended, shocking, two whole days for almost decking me, she gets to sit at home and watch tv, great, this is great real life training, yeah you can attempt to deck someone and if you don't connect, you get time off to think and things....

my boyfriend is pretty supportive and i have lots of extracurricular activities, i publish a broadsheet, i do chapbooks, i freelance articles about visual and literary art, so i don't go home and play with my cats, but you know, this is crazy, oh i also reenact the horrors of earlier in the day with my friends at seedy hollywood bars...yeah my boyfriend is great support and so is gin and tonic....lol....

[hunter]

207. My wife got knocked over by a student on a bus.

She had after school bus duty, heard a commotion on the bus, and stepped inside to see what it was about.

The student who knocked my wife down was expelled for good -- by the bus driver.

My wife was very upset. Other teachers told her they never went into the buses, it wasn't their problem. That may have been an actual district policy -- I don't remember.

If the same thing had happened in a classroom it would have been a lot more trouble for my wife. Bus drivers had more authority than teachers. Teachers were always questioned and sometimes blamed for incidents like this, but if a bus driver said they weren't going to transport a student, that was the final word, end of discussion, the kid was gone.

This was twenty years ago, so I don't know what it's like there now.

In some places I've visited principals are loathe to call the police for incidents that are quite clearly assaults for fear that it will reflect badly on their schools.

A lot of bullshit goes on with regards to standardized testing too. School principals allow plenty of unethical practices in order to increase their schools' test scores. "Teaching to the test" doesn't even begin to describe some of the crap that goes on. Very bad teachers, who run their classrooms like prison workshops, can be administration darlings because their kids "test well."

The schools where I live have a police presence on campus. Officers are assigned full time to high school and middle school campuses. I think it was probably a necessity, because otherwise school administrators are pressured to cover things up. If the police are on campus, the administration can wash their hands of certain problems almost instantly.

[sunniluna]

211. the insanity is still in effect

i can't throw anyone out of my class for threatening to slit my throat and guess what else, i can't keep them for detention, i can't even call their parents...

one day, my student told me, "look you *racial slur* bitch, i can do whatever i want, i can get up, go over there and come back, and you can't do anything, watch me do it right now, i'm going to show you who runs this school." so i tell him to sit down, he doesn't, he gets up and does exactly what he says he's going to do, then he walks to the office referral room (this bs excuse for a punishment room, where a bunch of guys who coach little league sports on the weekends, pretend to be behaviorist, --they are teaching assistants with a special title--, but actually what they are is a bunch of guys collecting a paycheck and telling the students how we the teachers are dumbasses and we don't know how it really is, since we aren't from the "streets")

then he did it, he did exactly what he said, and i was like, "i'm calling your mom," he actually had fear in his face, like he heard me for the first time ever, i called the office to get his parent's number, and just as i was about to call his mom, the principal walks in, she's like, "what are you doing," i'm like i'm calling his mother and she's like, "you can't do that, that's not boystown?"

what??!!! you know what the hell, so i'm like what are we going to do about the insanity and she was like, "use the boystown model."

see our "genius" of a school psychologist(hope they aren't on this group) instituted the boystown model at our school, problem is, we're understaffed and the kids, they can go home, so points to buy cheetos isn't going to work when you can simply go home and to the store after school, but someone got paid some nice bit of cash for that, wish i could think of some bs to sell a school district, they'll buy anything, oh but i forgot, you have to be friends to or married to one of the bigwigs in order to sell the bs programs...

so i can't suspend anyone, i can't throw them out of my class, i can't keep them for detention, i can't call their mother, so they can curse me out and threaten me with no recourse, but the busdrivers can ban them from the bus if they cause trouble, the psychologist can just send them out of the office if they cause trouble, but me, i can't do anything...so teacher's still have absolutely no power at all....

sunni

[CRK7376]

141. This male

teacher left the profession after 13 years. Low pay was my reason. 3 young kids to house, feed, clothe and try to figure out how to pay for their college...equaled leaving the profession. I will return when I retire from serving Uncle Sam. Oh yeah, I taught high school social studies and have two Master's degrees.

Poverty wages more like it, not the kids, admin or parents, just not enough money to stay out of the poor house.....

[Bigmack]

142. Dogsitting pays better...

In our area, there's a dog resort run by a couple of ex-elementary teachers. They live in a semi-rural area on about 5 acres. They made three huge yards and a kennel/kitchen/office near their house.

They work at home, work with dogs they love, and make great money.

They charge below the prevailing rate in our area... $20 a day for day care (whoever thought there would be such a thing as day care for dogs?) They charge $24 for boarding. They have an average of 15 dogs boarding and about the same for day care.

About $600 per day X 365 days..... equals a helluva lot more than 2 elementary teachers could make together.

They can also be with their new baby all day. One of them or hired help is within sight of the dogs all the time.

The dogs are in paradise, too. These ex-elementary teachers know how to schedule little creatures to make them happy and busy and tired.

8am.... wakeup and outside call....8:30 light breakfast, then play in the yards (divided into play groups) until noon.

At noon, light lunch and quiet time until 2 pm, then play time until 5. Dinner then, and light play until dark, then to bed.

There's never any barking, because the dogs all are playing together. Your dog has to "interview" before they will accept it. Your dog has to "play well with others".

Lights out and sleep at 8 pm. No barking because everybody is tired and sleeping near friends.

Our VERY spoiled dog loves to go to "doggie camp".

The purpose of this overlong post is to point out that gifted young teachers can make more money taking care of dogs than taking care of kids......

During my 30 years teaching high school, I had 12 student teachers. 7 of those were very good, and two were superspectacular. NONE of them are in teaching today.

(If you want to know more about the dog paradise - in the Puget Sound area - message me)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

158. I knew a prospective teacher who waitressed at a country club

during her college years. During the summers, when she worked full time, she earned more per month, including tips, than she did in her first teaching job after graduation.

[Godhumor]

148. Social Studies Teacher here...

This is my fifth year teaching, and I have already been through one career change (graphic designer originally). In the past five years I've worked in Japan, Hawai'i, and DC. In the past five years I have written three course curriculum (the current school I'm at just opened last year), run four extracurricular clubs, and have organized an international trip that is earning a travel agency around 150,000 dollars.

This summer my wife and I are moving back to Rochester, NY, and I am looking at jobs both inside and outside of teaching. I called a few recruiters yesterday, explained my situation, and asked what kind of work I might be able to find. All three recruiters said that I would be "unqualified" for any other professional job, completely disregarding how well teaching skills translate into corporate work. I couldn't convince any of them to even look at my resume.

The plan I will probably put into action is to start working on my School Business Leader certification, and move into non-teacher based administration.

[October]

174. Our area has better salaries for teachers.

By PATRICK LESTER
The Intelligencer

Teachers in the Central Bucks School District will receive average annual raises of 4.16 percent and begin paying 10 percent of their medical insurance premium costs - as much as $114 per month - under the terms of the district's new teachers contract.

Both the nine-person school board and 1,300 member Central Bucks Education Association ratified the five-year deal that will increase the top pay in the district to $101,830 in five years - the top-paid teacher received $89,283 in the final year of the previous agreement. The new deal requires teachers to foot 12.5 percent of their health care premium costs in the fifth year.

As for first-year teachers, they'll see the starting pay rate increase from the $39,029 to $40,900 in the first year of the proposed deal. By the fifth-year, the starting salary will be $44,000.

Central Bucks residents who are now paying $82.4 million per year for teacher salaries will have to cough up an additional $18 million for teacher pay over the life of the contract, according to district administrators. That's an average of about $3.6 million per year.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/113-10272005-560989.html

[BrklynLiberal]

177. But Billions going to Iraq is OK??? Wouldn't everyone prefer that $$ be

spent on our kids' education? Where are the priorities in this country?
Teachers should be among the highest paid professions in the world as far as I am concerned.
I would much rather my tax money went there than about 95 % of where Congress and most local communities allocate it.

Without an educated citizenry, the rest is all useless.

[October]

187. Not sure of your question. It was an article, not an opinion. /nt

[BrklynLiberal]

202. Just a response to the negative connotation in the article about the

amount of money the residents "will have to cough up" to pay the teachers' salaries.

Central Bucks residents who are now paying $82.4 million per year for teacher salaries will have to cough up an additional $18 million for teacher pay over the life of the contract, according to district administrators. That's an average of about $3.6 million per year.

[CheshireCat]

179. Wow - excellent!

In South Carolina, a Master's degree and 10 years might get you $40K per year - depending on the district in which you teach. First year teachers make about $25K. Try paying off a student loan on that salary.

[kwassa]

182. but the cost of living is much less in South Carolina

It would be best to compare housing prices in the Philly or Washington DC burbs with South Carolina.

Retirees in my neighborhood north of DC are selling their houses here and buying bigger new ones in SC.

[TheCrankyOne]

186. Union Yes!

This is why we need mandatory unions in all schools!

[Rex]

191. 2 years.

Going back into the IT field. To all teachers and future teachers, good luck.

[Bruden]

197. Welcome to the right-wing war on teachers.

[BrklynLiberal]

203. True. Particularly teachers in public schools and "liberal" universities

[Orsino]

206. Three years.

I'd had it--and I was in a cushy private school.

[mccoyn]

208. Half? My friends must be slackers.

I've known four people who became teachers. One is still teaching, but she just started a year ago.

[lutefisk]

229. My theory on why many quit: Cognitive Dissonance

Well, actually, Leon Festinger developed Cognitive Dissonance Theory, but I am using it to explain why many teachers quit at about the 5 year mark.

Quitting is the resolution to the conflict between what professional teacher training, their own 17+ years of experience as students, and the unquestioned assumptions about the good done by the institution of schooling and the unconscious or conscious realization that the institution they have spent nearly their whole life in is not really doing what they've believed for all those years. Teachers see a system, one in which they are complicit, that often does more harm than good.

That is far more stressful than the relatively low pay and working conditions. The resolution is to leave.

[sunniluna]

230. yeah

wow, yeah, i totally get that, i think this is right on, you just realize, "this is such a bunch of pooh." it's like this weird overload or something, had i known the real deal before, possibly i could deal with the system, but yeah, what you said man...sunni