Catholic Teen Attacked by Protestants Dies

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"A Roman Catholic teenager attacked by Protestants wielding baseball bats died Monday in what was the latest in a string of anti-Catholic attacks in an overwhelmingly Protestant town.

The victim, 15-year-old Michael McIlveen, was hospitalized in critical condition after being chased and cornered by the gang Sunday outside the movie theater in Ballymena, northwest of Belfast. Doctors switched off his life-support machine Monday.

Police were interrogating five people on suspicion of involvement in the attack.

Peter Hain, the British secretary of state for Northern Ireland, appealed for local leaders to "redouble our efforts to try and eradicate sectarianism."


more

[saltpoint]

1. This looks horrifying, unspeakably sad, and indefensible.

[Kutjara]

2. How can Christianity and Islam ever get along...

...when even Christianity and Christianity can't?

[Zynx]

17. I think we've also proven the various sects of Islam don't get along very

well either. This isn't limited to Christianity.

[lumpy]

27. But but Englnd is supposed to be

a 'civilized' country. (dripping sarcasm)

[Kutjara]

33. True, the Sunnis and Shiites aren't exactly...

...best of friends, but I think that reinforces my point. If intrafaith relations are so bad, when the doctrinal and lifestyle differences between sects are very similar, it bodes ill for interfaith relations, where there are great chasms of disagreement on fundamental tenets.

[Zynx]

43. To be fair, Northern Ireland is one of the few examples of intra-Christian

warfare still in existence.

[northzax]

47. you miss the point

the smaller the differences, the greater the fight. so has it ever been.

[anotherdrew]

38. all these damn religions can get along in the grave of history n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowknows69]

4. Religion fuking sux

Without it man would only have greed and envy as reasons to murder.

[Zynx]

18. WWI and WWII had very little to do with religion and they were the most

destructive wars in human history.

[jahyarain]

37. numbers

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatv.htm#Biblical

203 million "martyrs" killed because of their FUCKING superstition. oh, i'm sorry, RELIGION.
that's not counting the 8 - 145 million Native Americans (depending on which records you want to believe) murdered in the name of Christian "manifest destiny" to create the "new Israel".

RELIGION IS MANKIND'S GREATEST MISTAKE

[Zynx]

39. The vast majority of Native Americans died of diseases.

Also, these numbers are very questionable and I see that many were killed by causes other than religious feuds. They count almost twenty million of them as being killed by the Soviets alone.

[jahyarain]

55. to be exact

75% of the people God put on this land were wipped out by the disease infested invaders. let's not forget the other 25%. and as there were many different nations of natives, that number would be very high. and if you don't believe 20 million people died in the gulags over a sixty year period, then limbaugh must not be a junkie either. and the numbers i used only included "religious martyrs". the number i gave did not include any "causes other than religious feuds". these numbers may be questionable, but there is little doubt that over the span of our existence, religion is the leading cause of murder. and it separates us. making it Godless in it's very nature.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. 6 million Jews might disagree. n/t

[asthmaticeog]

49. I was unaware that WWII was started and/or fought over Judaism. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Gott Mit Uns

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."
-Adolf Hitler, 12 April 1922

[asthmaticeog]

53. Um, so?

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. So WWII had everything to do with religion. n/t

[asthmaticeog]

57. No. It didn't.

If Hitler hadn't taken to invading his neighbors, nobody would have cared. And the world didn't know much about the Jewish genocide until the very *end* of the war. You could argue that WWII had *something* to do with religion inasmuch that Hitler's racialist beliefs were tied to his imperialistic bent, but everything? Not even close.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. You're unwilling to take the word of the guy who started it?

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

He started his crusade as a part of his religious belief in subjugating all inferiors.

His philosophy was influenced by Martin Luther himself.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

[asthmaticeog]

59. Read my post again, please.

I didn't say it wasn't a factor. You said WWII had EVERYTHING to do with religion. Rubbish. It partly had to do with religion for Hitler, which I already granted. For everyone else, it had to do with real estate. Stupid fucking jagoff...

[Catrina]

26. Occupation, not religion, is the longtime cause of the violence in NI.

[jman0]

6. it's not religion

C'mon folks, this isn't about religion or christianity or different versions of christianity.
This is what the media does regarding events in NI.
Substitute "Catholic" with the following: Irish, Nationalist, Replublican
Substitute "Protestant" with British, Unionist, Loyalist
This is about a bunch of sectarian minded scumbags beating to death a kid from the "other side" because they want to keep the ethnic makeup of their little shithole called Ballymena.

[xchrom]

8. that's it.

if they are like any other teens -- i'ld guess they rarely go to church -- do not come under the influence of rabid preachers.

they do come under some weird machismo notion of nationalism.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Liam Neeson came from the fine town of Ballymena.

During the later half of the 20th Century Ballymena, like many other once prosperous industrial centres in Northern Ireland, experienced an economic downturn. Many of its former factories closed, Ballymena is now becoming a centre of information-based, international corporations in an effort to give a kickstart to their stagnant economy.

Early in the 1990s the Royal Irish Regiment whose Regimental Headquarters is at St Patrick's Barracks in the town, was granted the Freedom of the Borough. Unfortunately, later on in the century the Freedom of the Borough became a contentious issue. In March 2000, the actor Liam Neeson, a Catholic native of Ballymena, was offered the freedom of the borough by the council, which approved the action by a 12-9 vote. The Democratic Unionist Party objected to the offer and drew attention to his comments from a 1999 interview with the American political magazine George, in which Neeson complained that while growing up he felt Catholics were "second-class citizens" and described the Battle of the Boyne as "some bloody obscure war." The DUP preferred that the award should honor their leader Ian Paisley, who was eventually made a freeman of Ballymena in December 2004. <1> Neeson declined the award, citing tensions, and affirmed he was proud of his connection to the town. <2>

With a Protestant majority, Ballymena is described by some observers as being at the heart of Northern Ireland's equivalent of the Bible Belt. <3> It is also severely afflicted with heroin addiction; half of the registered heroin addicts in Northern Ireland are in the town, with approximately one person out of 60 in the town a heroin user.<4><5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymena

Apparently "Freedom of the Borough" is like the Key to the City. Ian Paisley's DUP is still the majority party, although the Reverend added his voice to the chorus protesting this latest atrocity.

The British Empire set the Ulster Protestants (Dissenters, more Protestant than the Church of Ireland) against the Catholic Irish. (Just as the American Empire is glad to set Shia against Sunni.) Now the Empire is dead & most of the Irish (on whichever side of that silly Border) just want to get on with their lives. But where the economy is stagnant & young man lack jobs, the old sectarian fault lines still exist.

It sounds as though "little shithole" is the correct term.

[sg_]

12. I dont live too far from Ballymena...

and I dont consider it a "Little Shithole".

[Bridget Burke]

14. Please, let us know more.

I'm sure the area has many fine points that are not obvious from a distance.

[sg_]

19. Its a nice wee shopping town.

but you are correct about the drug problem, it lets it down alot.

It is near Slemish mountian aswell for those who are interested (the mountain st patrick slaved at for some years in the ~5th century).

[chaumont58]

10. But, the only difference between the ethnic groups you describe

is their religion. You would be able to pick out the difference in a line up. Its like the crap in the Balkans. The people were just alike, except for a different religion, and for that, some one had to die. Years ago, I worked with an Irishman, a Belfast catholic, who relaid his experiences in Northern Ireland, as a Catholic. He couldn't find work in Northern Ireland, but then went across the Irish Sea to midland England and found work. There, they didn't give a shit about religion.
These acts of violence could be stopped in a day, by the church leaders, but they stand mute. After all, each religion is the only way to heaven.

[Catrina]

28. No, that is not the only difference ~ heritage is the main difference. An

example might be the difference between Native Americans here and the 'settlers' who are now the majority. The PTBs continue to try to hide the fact that Ireland was an occupied, colonial country and an example of the damage that Colonialism causes to the native populations victimized by Empires or those with dreams of Empire. The US is emulating this sad, destructive foreign policy today. Empires rarely last long, native populations rarely ever 'assimilate' but often become second class citizens on their own soil.

'Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it'.

[Maeve]

11. Thank you, jman0

It's tribal/ethnic, not religious. It's "them 'uns" and "us 'uns" and self-destruction.

[colorado_ufo]

41. And for many other reasons.

Reference the recent vicious attack on a Hispanic teen with a patio umbrella, because he tried to kiss an underage (Hispanic, no less) girl at a party. I have not heard a recent update; I hope and pray that he is still alive.

[CONN]

46. Agree with the "it's not religion"...

But don't agree with the description of Ballymena.

[brook]

7. Another tragedy.

I have followed the story on sluggerotoole's blog since it was first reported. Apparently Ballymena is known as a hostile environment for Catholics.It was also said that heroin addiction is a huge problem in the area, so while religion is part of this, I think poverty and politics are also factors. The mindset nursed and manipulated by both sides for years of the "Troubles" has to be changed or these events will continue.

I hope the police have the right people in custody as there've been numerous threats of reprisals. (There were allegations of a confession posted on a website popular with NI youth).

I cannot imagine the pain young Michael's family must be enduring. :(

[FreakinDJ]

13. Long history of Catholic genocide

Yep I'm Irish catholic - so what

I still remember Bush's statements in his first state of the union address, specifically putting the IRA on notice - they would be targeted next after they cleaned up their little mess in the mideast.

I still remember Catholic school children and their mother's escorting them into classrooms being pelted with rocks by a large crowd that had gathered attempting to prevent them from entering the school.

[Bridget Burke]

15. President Clinton encouraged the Good Friday Agreement.

What Democratic accomplishment has Bush allowed to survive?

Guess who he invited to his first White House St Patrick's Day celebration? Why, none other than Reverend Paisley.

[Judi Lynn]

16. God, I missed that.Thanks for that bit of info. Absolutely loathesome. n/t

[LostinVA]

20. OMG... are you serious???

I hadn't heard that... that literally makes me SICK.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Yup. I heard the story back in 2001.

Here's proof: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 :

Bush offers St Patrick's Day welcome to Ian Paisley

President Bush has enraged US Catholics by inviting Ian Paisley to the White House for St Patrick's Day. Reverend Paisley, noted for his anti-Catholic rhetoric, was invited along with other Irish, British and Northern Irish leaders....

A White House official said: "He may decide he doesn't want to come but if he shows up, he's welcome. The President is certainly going to shake his hand". A spokesman for Rev Paisley confirmed he will go to the White House for a "private meeting" with George Bush. It is not clear if he will celebrate St Patrick's Day.....

In 1988, he interrupted Pope John Paul as he addressed the European Parliament, roaring: "Antichrist! I renounce you and all your cults and creeds".

He has an honorary doctorate from Bob Jones University, South Carolina. The college considers the Catholic Church a cult and until recently banned interracial dating.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/03/14/story6667.asp

Others honored by Bob Jones University: Lester Maddox, George Wallace, Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms & John Ashcroft.

[LostinVA]

34. And on St. Patrick's Day, too -- the bastard probably wore orange

[sg_]

21. Paisley may be an asshole..

but I'd rather him being a guest at the Whitehouse than Adams/McGuinness.

[Henny Penny]

22. Wow...

Adams/McGuiness.... the two headed beast for someone from near Ballymena!

Perhaps given what has happened, its time for stock phrases like this to go into the bin... along with the devil's buttermilk eh?

[sg_]

24. Sorry if I upset you but...

I am not very fond of them :)

[Henny Penny]

40. you didn't upset me...

I have no problem with adams, mcguiness or paisley going to the whitehouse. My problem is with the *&^% they would be going to meet.

If nothing else, this current US admin has put all our problems into the shade... big time.

We all need to stop gazing at out navels and start paying attention to the big picture.

********************
Speaking of which...
When you say you are from near ballymena.... do you mean Buckna?

:-)

[Catrina]

30. Ian Paisley, you can be sure, is far more likely to be a guest at THIS WH

than just about anyone who might be fighting for civil rights. He is Bush's kind of radical, trouble-maker who can be depended on to espouse what Bush himself espouses. Statements from the Rev. Ian P. such as 'I don't HATE Keeatholicks, I just wish they were all dead' most likely endear him to the would-be dictator currently occupying the WH.

Radical, religious nutcases are useful political tools to the likes of Bush and band of neocons.

[LostinVA]

35. I'd take Adams and McGuinness if I had to choose

Definitely the lesser of two evils.

[brentspeak]

42. Strange thing about Paisley

Despite all his inflammatory, divisive rhetoric against Catholicism, he's been reelected to Parliament time and time again by his Catholic constituency.

[Bridget Burke]

51. Catholics are a minority in Paisley's constituency.

But a higher percentage of them vote for him than one might expect.

One thing in his favor: You KNOW where Paisley's coming from. He doesn't act mealy-mouthed & stab you in the back. He stabs you in the front!

[lumpy]

25. This shit has been going on for

a couple of hundred years. England should have solved this problem years % years ago.

[Darth_Kitten]

45. The establishment chased out of the country.......

the last catholic King who wanted religious tolerance.....oh well, long, long story. :(

But he was a pro-catholic "bigot" :sarcasm:

[ozone_man]

29. Religion is a source of violence.

Not the only source, but a very important source. 911 is testament to that certainly, but so is Northern Ireland.

Religion as a Source of Violence
One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the 21st century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns--about ethics, spiritual experience and the inevitability of human suffering--in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities--Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.--and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.

In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/page4/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/

[Catrina]

31. Sorry, but I disagree. Religion is merely a tool used by brutal, immoral

greedy, warmongers. Taking away someone's right to act on what they believe in, will tend to instigate violence. It also tends to make whatever it is that is forbidden, become more important. That seems to be human nature.

The real reason for violence throughout history, has been invasion and capture of other people's lands. If those individuals have a belief system or a culture, it often becomes the target of the occupiers in order to establish their own rules and/or culture, and force it on the native populations. Sort of wolves urinating to establish their territories.

[ozone_man]

32. It starts with the children.

Like the case at hand.

So many people bring up their children as Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, not as children. Consequently they are taught intolerance toward those of different religions. Children should not be exposed to religious prosyletization until they are old enough to process it by themselves, make their own reasoned decisions. Children are taught to fear and hate at an early age, which is what causes these problems. It's not the only cause for violence certainly, but it is a big one.

One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

Also, consider how Jews were demonized over the centuries by the Catholic church. Religious antisemitism was turned into racial antisemitism during the Spanish Inquisition and spread throughout Europe, ultimately providing the background for the Holocaust. But it's roots were religious hatred, not racial hatred. During the Holocaust, Christianity was used as a tool like you say, to make a Christian army, as were the Crusades, as it seems is teh alliance between the neocons and religious right. So, you're right in that it is a tool. But that doesn't address the conflicts that religion is directly responsible for. Every day someone blows themselves up in the ME. One doesn't do that without being fanatically religious.

[Catrina]

36. Well, I see it differently ~ I think that there is something in human

nature that is always seeking answers to the mysteries of life and all religion is, is a way to explain the inexplicable for many people. Most, in fact the vast majority are peaceful and don't generally impose their cultures or beliefs on others, until a few fanatics, most often in the form of 'legitimate leaders' ie, Kings, Emperors, Chieftains, Presidents, Queens etc, come along throughout history, and use this aspect of human nature to control people with, by telling them that there are enemies, ready to take away their right to believe what they believe, and it seems to work. Not because it is always true, but because these war-mongering leaders somehow gain the trust of their people, at least for a while.

Their victims' religions, cultures etc. then become targets, seen as a threat, when often there is no threat. It's a game that's been played throughout history, and if we could advance past the primitive stage we seem to be stuck in, most of us would ignore them, not allow fear to rule our emotions, and therefore diminish their power. But we're not there yet, as this administration has demonstrated. Nothing has changed, we are now the aggressors, our 'religion' is the good religion, and Islam is bad. Who knows how it will be next time.

Imo, all these wars are what strengthened religious beliefs because another aspect of human nature seems to be that if someone tries to take something away from us, we fight to prevent them from doing so, when the object itself may not have been all that important previously.

As for Ireland, (you said to ask the Irish re religion) I grew up there, and I don't recognize what you wrote as being even remotely close to what the reality is, at least in the South, where as Ireland grew further away from its history of occupation, the importance of religion diminished.

In the North, religion is not the issue, occupation still is. In fact Ireland to me, is proof that it isn't religion, it's the taking of rights to be what we want to be, that is the problem and the existence among us since the beginning of time, of those who will exploit others, a minority really, but who manage to capture our attention and get us to follow them for some reason.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Religion is a handy tool for colonial powers.

If the "natives" can be induced to fight among themselves, they won't gang up on those who are oppressing them. In this setting, I'm regarding the Northern Protestants as natives--they've been there for centuries. Many of America's first settlers came from the North--for one thing, they'd been the "wrong" kind of Protestant at home. The United Irishmen began in Belfast--the Brotherhood of Man was in the air & those radicals thought that Church of Ireland, Nonconformist & Catholic Irish could work together. Result: A failed revolution & Union with Mother England. (Here I am lecturing you on Irish history!)

The US government is currently shocked & dismayed that Shia & Sunni are fighting in Iraq. Alas, we must keep an occupying force to preserve order--& our control over the oil. Shia & Sunni manage to coexist in other countries. And they coexisted in Iraq before we invaded.

[ozone_man]

50. There is in human nature

something that seeks answers, but we have to learn to seek them in ways that avoid absurdities. Here is a quote to support that concept.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
- Voltaire

BTW, this applies more than just to religion, including political and racial dogmas. But if a culture is prone to believing absurdities, it opens the door for the rest. So you get killing in the name of God, or state, or race.

The violent effects of religion can be manifested in several ways. One way as you mention is state/church manipulation, such as the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. there was little difference between the two then. Now they are somewhat separate organizations of power, but work in similar ways, though not as blatantly, except in certain areas where fundamentalist religions are still practiced.

But also is the effect of bringing up children to believe in a faith, being religiously programmed at early ages, before they can reason for themselves. In so doing, the seeds of bigotry, fear and hate are planted. We have to get over this holdover from our ignorant past if we want to progress toward a peaceful future.

That previous quote (ask the Irish) was from Sam Harris. Sure, it is not simply a Catholic/Protestant issue, but that helps form the division. Religion divides, since there is only one true God or way to practice religion, and it is of course the same for each religious sect over the world. E.g., would there be such bloodshed if all were Catholics? Probably not. You probably wouldn't be hearing this story. How many Catholics or Protestants in NI program their kids with religion? It's them vs. us at an early age.

[BoneDaddy]

54. One more countless example

of the stupidity of the "faithful" who use religion as a vehicle to express their sociopathic tribalism.