Religious liberals gain new visibility

[ismnotwasm]

"Religious liberals say their faith compels them to emphasize such issues as poverty, affordable health care and global warming. Disillusionment with the war in Iraq and opposition to Bush administration policies on secret prisons and torture have also fueled the movement.

"The wind is changing. Folks -- not just leaders -- are fed up with what is being portrayed as Christian values," said the Rev. Tim Ahrens, senior minister of First Congregational Church of Columbus, Ohio, and a founder of We Believe Ohio, a statewide clergy group established to ensure that the religious right is "not the only one holding a megaphone" in the public square.

"As religious people we're offended by the idea that if you're not with the religious right, you're not moral, you're not religious," said Linda Gustitus, who attends Bethesda's River Road Unitarian Church and is a founder of the new Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture. "I mean there's a whole universe out there different from the religious right. . . . People closer to the middle of the political spectrum who are religious want their voices heard."

Religious liberals say their faith compels them to emphasize such issues as poverty, affordable health care and global warming. Disillusionment with the war in Iraq and opposition to Bush administration policies on secret prisons and torture have also fueled the movement

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12879318/

I thought this was good news. This corrupt administration has been milking the fundamentalist message. It would be good to see the religious left representing that religion we haven't been seeing much of lately-- you know, Christianity.

[cally]

1. This is good news

I hope the leaders speak out. I think many of the religious right voters will change their voting if they see an alternative way of being Christian. Unfortunately, the whackos have gotten too much of the publicity and to many it seems their the only Christians.

[ismnotwasm]

3. Exactly

That was my thought. So many people of the Christan faith have been sucked into the megachurch/fundamentalist void, and have their religion and religious ideals spoon fed to them. I'm not religious, but I've met wonderful activist Christan's who are appalled at how their religion is being portrayed. Some of them are here at DU, of course.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. even if the portrayal is accurate in many ways?

what of the betrayal, rather than portrayal, of what some religious folks label "true christian thought"? I have seen precious little of that from today's leaders, both in Congress or the self-proclaimed religious leaders that hit the airways, fill the huge fundie churches each sunday and who claim millions of leaders, in many cases, accurately.

[ismnotwasm]

8. The problem is the political tug of war

Using religion. The fact is religion isn't going to go away, and I sure as hell would rather see the religious left with an actual voice than the Reaganite message of the fundamentalist.

It started with the groups like the Moral Majority, an activist religious group that succeeded in helping Reagan get elected, and getting rid of certain liberal politicians, including George McGovern, Birch Bayh, Gaylord Nelson, John Culver, Warren Magnuson, Frank Church. As a political force, the religious right shouldn't be underestimated. Their message is horribly toxic and damaging to society as well as the soul, if there is such as thing. To the essence of being human anyway.
Many people find comfort in religion and faith and look toward religious leaders to provide a way to that comfort. I would love to see an alternative to what we've been getting, and I'm strictly agnostic.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. ism, you are so right.

Toxic is precisely the word.

[calimary]

42. Yes. It IS good news.

I think we'll see more of it, too. The fundie wackos have given people like these groups a VERY bad name, and it looks as though some of 'em are sick of being saddled with it.

[Ravy]

2. I don't think they stopped practicing Christianity. (the left)

My take.

The right wants people to think they are Christians, so they make a big deal about it to their fellow man.

The left wants God to know they are Chrisitans, They make a big deal about it to Him.

[ismnotwasm]

4. Let me fix that wording

It implys something I didn't mean...

There, hope that's better.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. WHAT TOOK THEM SO LONG?

sorry for screaming, but I find it strange that they have been ever so quiet, during this five year attack on our country. Worse yet, the zealots have impacted their way of life as well. Now that Boy George is aqt 29% and falling, only then do they speak up? Bah.

I do not believe in some artificial creature, created in a fantasy book intended for and used to offer some not unreasonable (under the circumstances of ignorance, war, greed, disease and short lives) rules for survival. But, just as strongly I support people's rights to practice what they preach. Just leave me out of your church is all I ask.

The problem is that most of today's preachers like the preachiness part, but not the obedience part. Instead, they want their rules to apply to everyone, whether we like it or not. That I do not accept and will fight to the death to prevent.

In this battle between the religious and people like me, where have the liberal religious been hiding? and why? Fear?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. They've been protesting and speaking out since Day One

But if someone protests and gets no press coverage, does anyone hear them?

Certainly not anyone outside their particular fold.

I think it's more that THE MEDIA have gathered the courage to cover the actions of the religious Left, now that the Bushboy is at 29%.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

27. I must admit that you could be right. But, some news would have leaked

I saw few, no, I saw no signs of them objecting to rightists.

[bettyellen]

29. they've been fighting off another RW assault, this time on Protestant

Churches. The conservatives are attempting to broaden their grip with another takeover. There's a special report on this Sunday (tomorrow) on Air America. Scary.


'This Sunday, May 21, on the national radio show State of Belief, Rev. Welton Gaddy exposes the coordinated effort to undermine mainline Protestantism -- and render America's largest denomination incapable of standing up to right wing politics.

This unprecedented look into the takeover of America’s churches reveals the ugly truths, personal experiences, and exhaustive research of four leaders:

Dr. Bruce Prescott, Executive Director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists, is, like Welton, a veteran of the purges that marked the conservative takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. The strategy, says Prescott, is to keep mainstream denominations in turmoil over wedge issues such as gay marriage, so that conservative leaders can be free to achieve their political and religious goals.

Dr. John Dorhauer, minister for the St. Louis Association of the United Churches of Christ, has seen congregations around him descend into in-fighting, provoked by right-wing propaganda. Dorhauer explains, “What the politically motivated achieve is the silence of the religious conscience voice that has historically led this country....If you take out the 45 million people that are represented by the National Council of Churches, you are going to hollow out one of the cores of our nation's democracy.”

Dr. Andrew Weaver, a United Methodist pastor and research psychologist, has traced the campaign against mainline Protestantism largely to the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a think-tank funded by uber-conservative industrialists such as Richard Mellon Scaife and Adolph Coors. Weaver says that the IRD and so-called religious “renewal” groups are funneling money in "a systematic effort to undermine mainline churches that still have democratic, transparent processes." The problem in countering these efforts, he says, is that "All of these traditions have niceness at the core; while we've been thinking it's touch football, they've been playing tackle."

Welton offers listeners a wake-up call: "The Southern Baptist Convention was lost not because of those trying to take it over, but because of people arguing that it wasn't a big deal."

This issue has never before been discussed on national radio, and continues State of Belief’s focus on how religion is being manipulated for partisan political purposes. It may stun listeners – and it is sure to inspire Protestant congregations to reclaim their role as a positive and much needed healing force in our nation. State of Belief: religion and radio, done differently.

State of Belief is heard nationwide on Air America Radio on Sundays from 5 to 6 PM EST. Information about affiliates, listening live via the internet, or podcasting" and more....

www.StateofBelief.com

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Maybe not in your area, but here, yes

only it was covered in tiny articles in the back pages of the newspapers and not at all on television.

Come on, you've undoubtedly seen what happens to coverage of secular anti-war or other protests. The MSM make it look as if the counter-protestors are as significant as the protestors, or else they focus in on the most outlandish-looking or violent protestors, the ones most threatening to middle-class suburban sensibilities, and make it seem that the whole crowd was made up of "fringe elements."

I know firsthand how much work it took to get publicity for Dennis Kucinich's visits to the Twin Cities during his presidential campaign.

The brilliance of American-style propaganda is that it mostly ignores that which might upset the powers that be.

Why should it surprise you that the MSM would shy away from covering people and actions who don't fit the constantly trumpeted idea of "Christians supporting Bush"?

Now that Bush is unpopular, they see it as safe to cover anti-Bush elements.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

33. you are right about the MSM coverage. That too is sad, sick, even,

shows how far gone the separation of church and state, the concept of indie media, and the separation of powers have been eroded under this moron.

[hippywife]

38. The Interfaith Alliance

has been going for the past ten years. And they don't get much press but they did here in Tulsa. The Tulsa Interfaith Alliance chapter was behind the hard work and publicity it took to keep creationism out of the Tulsa Zoo and are working to keep it out of schools. One of the toughest neighborhoods with regard to the religious right and they are doing their best to fight the fundamentalist mindset.

[Wheezy]

49. This is true

I've been on the Sojourner's email list and on the Interfaith Alliance list for years, and they have been liberal and against the war, for social issues, and fighting especially for Darfur these last years.

But posting anything religious around here just brings flames, and I don't want to deal with that.

There is a Christian left, and we are fighting mad. I don't care if folks don't believe in God--Just believe that some folks who do are still on your side.

[raccoon]

77. Right on, Lydia! nt

[Tin Man]

28. I think it's because Lib Christians believe faith is personal

...religion is between oneself and one's God, and can't be created nor enforced by laws or other worldly measures. With this in mind, I think Lib Christians have historically stayed out of politics, as it really is the antithesis of religion.

Only now, after the Christian Right so successfully politicized religion with the dubious/distasterous results we now witness, have Lib Christians felt compelled to rescue their religion from the fraudulent, like Jesus forcing the moneychangers from the Temple.

[pnwmom]

43. Many religious liberals have been attending candlelight

vigils, waving signs at street corners, contacting their representatives. Same as you. You probably stood right next to one and didn't know s/he was a Christian!

[Lucy - Claire]

83. exactly....

The Christians on the left are feeding the homeless, caring for the elderly, working a nurses, social workers and do not resent paying taxes or people on welfare. They are protesting outside the prisons while some poor sod is being executed, they are having candle light vigils for peace, they stand side by side with Muslims in protest over the war in Iraq. However you don't always know about them because they don't need to wear a t-shirt saying Jesus is Lord etc...They have a faith that works through action, deeds, thoughts and not posturing and shouting the loudest.
They are raising their children to be loving, respectful, caring people that will do something good it the world and helping them to deal with the fundie Christian Children how are often spoilt bullies in school, that believe only they are saved, that are judgemental and predjudice.

[pnwmom]

50. Many religious leaders, including the Pope, who was

anything but liberal, spoke out strongly against our invading Iraq. But they got little attention from the media, and none from Bush.

[Duncan]

70. The liberal religious who are unitarians have never hidden.

Every Unitarian I know (and I know many) does at least as much as I do (donations, letters, emails, phone calls, occasional protest, trying to keep informed), a liberal progressive atheist unitarian (albeit, I haven't gone to church in about ten years) You either don't know any unitarians or are not talking about unitarians.
I guess you sort of know one now.

[leftchick]

7. This is wonderful!

<snip>

All denominations included
According to John C. Green, an expert on religion and politics at the University of Akron, and others, the religious left cuts across almost all denominations, drawing in black churches, liberal Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants as well as Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and people who say they are "spiritual" but not affiliated with an organized faith.

It also includes some theologically traditionalist Christians.

Janel Bakker, 28, a graduate student at Catholic University who attends Washington Community Fellowship on Capitol Hill, an evangelical church affiliated with the Mennonite denomination, said she grew up in a "relatively conservative religious home" where "the big issue was considered to be abortion."

But Bakker, who has attended several rallies against the Iraq war, said she now regards poverty, peace and the environment as important spiritual issues ignored by the religious right. "The religious right has assumed that capitalism is the way to go and is the most moral way to organize society," Bakker added. "Young people are questioning that."

:applause:

[kineneb]

16. nice of them to include others

"... the religious left cuts across almost all denominations, drawing in black churches, liberal Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants as well as Jews, Buddhists, Muslims..."

Buddhism's whole purpose is mitgate suffering, both in the individual and society. Hunger, homelessness, poverty and war are all issuse for the Buddhist community.

Nam mo Amida Buddha.

[The Kicker]

23. Sukhavati is for everyone

Namo Amitabha Buddhaya. See you in the Pure Land, friend. Nice to see the name on this forum. ; ) We'll all make it sooner or later.

[knight_of_the_star]

47. No mention of pagans

No surprise there, considering our biggest issue with the GOP is that their Reich Wing masters want us dead, can't mention the "devil worshippers".

[Ghost Dog]

22. Hell, yeah.

:freak: Om.

[Lucy - Claire]

84. I am Catholic....

I have very active Parish, that were in Scotland with the protestors that are fighting to cancel world debt. They get invovled with other faiths. Our priests go to Easter Breakfast at a local CofE church and for Passover meals with the Jewish community. We have talks about the Muslim faith, teaching people that it is a good, peaceful religon which like The Catholic Church has bad people that corrupt it. In a debate about Assisted Suicide we had a member of the Hindu temple and a Rabbi on the panal along with doctors and nurses.
The Catholics in the UK are incensed by this war in Iraq as are the more fundie dominations in the UK and the fundies in the US are an embaressment and a problem that reflects on churches all around the world. The Conservative Catholics in America also do not represent the majority of the Catholics that I know. Enviromental issues are important to the British, we are a Island and in deep shit as the Arctic Ice Cap melts. The churches that teach about the End Times and Jesus returning as a central message may be less concerned but the Episcopalians,Catholics, Quakers etc are not anti-science and do take environmental issues very seriously.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. This has been building since 2004 at least

my local Democratic Headquarters had "I'm a Christian and a Democrat" tee shirts for sale, and I spent a pleasant hour talking to one of the volunteers who was a local minister. He said that it was a difficult step to take into politics, since Jesus advocated seperating church and state ("Render unto Ceasar...") I think the way for churches to do this is to emphasize working for the rights of the poor, for peace, etc.

[Warpy]

10. This is good news. Mainstream religious people have been dropping

the ball for far too many decades, afraid of annoying well heeled Repug church members and drying up contributions to the building fund. They've allowed that party to dictate their religion, basically, hijacking it as a tool to keep rich people fat and the rest of us oppressed.

It's high time for them to consider what those red words in their bibles actually say. I've long wondered why they allowed their faith to be perverted by Calvinists. I'm delighted that some are waking up, starting with Rev. Jim Wallis. He's a good man, and Christians would do much better for themselves and their country if they'd tune Robertson and Falwell OUT and tune Wallis in, instead.

If that happens more, they'll shed the bad name they've gotten for themselves.

[MGKrebs]

11. Rev. Tim McDonald in Atlanta

If you get the chance to see and hear him, please go. It will be worth it. He has a great message and is a fantastic leader.
For those in the Atlanta area, may I invite you to the Social Justice Forums, normally the first Tuesday of every month at First Iconium Church in East Atlanta. Check the brand new website for details (still being populated with info).

http://campaignwindow.com/fibcsocialjusticeforum/more/index.cfm?Fuseaction=more_13952

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. thanks but no thanks.

churches and I are like particles of matter and anti-matter coming too close together. Something has to give, and it won't be me.

[JudyM]

14. New interfaith&secular grassroots movement Ntwrk of Spiritual Progressives

is right on the mark with this. Today's the closing day of its national conference in DC. I've been attending - it's remarkable how powerful this message is, and how people respond immediately to it: love, generosity, compassion are the values that underlie liberals' policy positions, contrary to what the rethugs would have everyone believe. This movement is about putting that word out loud and clear, without being shy about its softness in this war-and-"reality"-centered country, and pressing for specific changes in law and policy.

There were hundreds of meetings on Thursday between conference participants and our senators/congressional reps, laying out this platform of specific issues and asking for their support in moving the agenda forward. The issues include strong progressive positions on for example, environmental/species conservation, Iraq, gay rights, etc. Whatever your pet issue is, it's addressed well. Cindy Sheehan spoke to the crowd yesterday, Holly Near sang, there was a peace march, etc etc. It was totally inspiring. Gandhi's grandson is speaking today.

The religious right is no longer going to have the corner on what are proper 'values' -- check out the new book "The Left Hand of God -- Taking Back Our Country from the Religious Right" - this is the cornerstone of the movement, and it's awesome. You'll be saying "Yes... Yes!" as you read it, it's so logical and persuasive. There are groups enthusiastically starting to form all over the country right now around this movement. It'll recharge you if you're up for it at all.

Here's the NSP website:
http://www.spiritualprogressives.org

Utne includes the author among its "100 visionaries." This book is "The blueprint for the next stage in the spiritual development of our planet." Deepak Chopra


:hippie: :thumbsup: :headbang:

[pberq]

15. thanks, JudyM, for the report.

I was wondering how the conference was going.

Also thank you ismnotwasm for posting this article.

[ismnotwasm]

19. Awesome!

It sounds wonderful. This article offers a lot of hope. Perhaps people won't realize at first what a powerful turning point this is.
And I'm getting that book today.

[JudyM]

21. Super! Here's a link that gives DU a bit of $ if you buy through Amazon:

amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=democraticund-20&path=subst/home/home.html

I'd love to know what you think of the book. It's loaded with ideas.

:popcorn:

[NJmaverick]

17. OUTSTANDING!!!

I hope we see more stuff like this in the coming months.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost Dog]

24. Did you all get to read this

Iranian letter (Guardian version)?

"To George Bush, president of the United States of America

"For some time now I have been thinking how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena. Can one be a follower of Jesus Christ, respect human rights, present liberalism as a civilisation model, announce one's opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons and WMD, make "war on terror" one's slogan and work towards the establishment of a unified international community - but at the same time have countries attacked, lives, reputations and possessions of people destroyed and, on the slight chance of the presence of a few criminals in a village, for example, set the entire village ablaze?

<snip>

"If the prophets Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph or Jesus Christ were with us today, how would they have judged such behaviour? Is there no better way to interact with the world? Today there are hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Muslims and millions who follow the teachings of Moses. All prophets speak of peace and tranquillity - based on monotheism, justice and respect for human dignity. Do you not think that if all of us abide by these principles, we can overcome the world's problems? Will you not accept this invitation?"

/more...

[Tin Man]

37. He's right.

I'm not convinced Ahmadinejad necessarily believes everything he wrote, but some of the letter (e.g. these 2 paragraphs) are particularly insightful.

[SidDithers]

25. Bleh...

What ever happened to secular politics and the separation of church and state? How is a politician serving a benign or compassionate God rather than a vengeful, punishing God any less theocratic?

Sid

[pnwmom]

46. Ever hear of the Christian workers movement? Christians have

always been involved in working for progressive social values. That doesn't mean that they oppose separation of church and state, quite the contrary.

[Ghost Dog]

55. Serving? No way!

I reckon it's not (at least not for me) a question of serving any religion or 'god'. It's just a matter of essential and developing human morality.

[LiberalEsto]

26. I'm Unitarian - glad to see religious liberals speaking out

To some degree, religious liberal churches have stayed fairly quiet about politics for fear the feds might go after their tax-exempt status. I seem to recall UUs being much more active against the Vietnam war.

Under the current Misadministration, the big corporate fundie churches don't seem to worry that messing in politics might cost them their tax exemptions.

[intheflow]

41. I was at a UU board meeting today and

one of the members read this piece. It's nice to log onto DU and see it made the GP. :hi:

[fshrink]

30. Cyanide with a raspberry flavor.

Fantastic beliefs should have no place whatsoever in public affairs. Do it in the privacy of your own mind, home, holly places or whatever. Do not push it on society in any way. We have enough historical perspective to know where it leads, regardless of the flavor.

[pnwmom]

44. Fine. See how far you get with progressive values without

liberal Christians at your side.

[PassingFair]

68. Awwww....

are you taking your Jesus and going home.

Grow Up.

One doesn't need to "accept" your Jesus to tolerate
your religion.

I love liberal Christians.
I love atheists.

I DO NOT give a FIG about anyone's
"sacred" concerns.

[pnwmom]

78. I'm not asking you to accept "my" Jesus. I'm pointing out that

you don't win elections by alienating the vast majority of people in the country, who happen to fall on the Christian spectrum somewhere or other.

[GeorgiaDem69]

86. Very good point

and something that some in the Democratic party seem to have forgotten. Religion shouldn't be favored by the state but statements like "it has no place whatsoever in public" are (1) going to alienate about 85% of the public (2) contrary to the way Dr. Martin Luther King and others have acted.

[me b zola]

74. Well stated, I agree completely

As much as I understand why liberals who believe in God/the Divine (because I am one) are deeply offended by the perverse manner in which the rw twist the teachings of Jesus and use the beliefs of christians to push their fascist agenda, I don't believe that we should counter their actions by bringing our brand of religion into politics. Religion has no place in politics. Further more, I don't believe that we will win the votes of any of the religious types who have been voting republican. The rw has invested 20 years of brainwashing via a highly organized e-mail campaign & have infiltrated many main stream churches.


This Jesus-loving Liberal demands the seperation of church & state to be restored to the US.

[MrPrax]

32. Soft Marketing?

Isn't Albrights new book, The Mighty and the Almighty, the same jag?

As an immigrant and the daughter of a former Czechoslovak diplomat, I was primarily interested in world affairs. I did not, however, view the great issues of the day through the prism of religion — either my own or that of others. Nor did I ever feel secure enough about the depth of my religious knowledge to think I was in a position to lecture acquaintances about what they should believe. I did not consider spiritual faith a subject to talk about in public.

Until Now!!!

excerpt from Chapter One here

While I applaud people to find some motive to get involved in democracy, I would prefer that the motive to doing something about poverty, homelessness, war, the environment would come from a 'fact-based' inspiration rather than the less than ideal Christain 'charity' aspects of the faith folks.

[Cha]

34. I like this news!

What took ya?! :)

[DarkTirade]

35. Now if only the people in the mass media would get this message...

anybody else remember that ad about a church that DIDN'T discriminate being pulled off the air because it was 'too contraversial'?

[Zhade]

36. You know what would be great news? Less religion in politics.

Preferably, none.

Personal religion, hey, whatever. But I really LIKE the wall of separation Jefferson spoke about.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. I do too, but there's no separating the person's religion from

their beliefs about everything. That's not a bad thing.

What's bad is when those beliefs include demanding that everyone else be like they are.

I think you'd have to look pretty far to find a liberal Christian eager to lower the wall of separation between church and state. Or to dictate religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to anyone.

What they will do is go out to fight for the things their religion teaches them to fight for: justice, peace, the dignity of all human beings. I sort of doubt you'd have any beef with those fights, right?

What the right-wing, so called "religious" right fails to see is that Jefferson's "wall" is what protects their right to practice religion as they see fit while it protects the rest of us to likewise choose our own paths. That's the beauty of it, but in their zealotry and bigotry they miss that entirely.

[pnwmom]

45. Exactly. It is their religious values that impel liberal Christians

to work for social justice. You can hardly expect them to leave their beliefs at the door.

[Skittles]

52. well, what compels me to work for the same?

I don't believe in religious stuff at all

[JerseygirlCT]

59. I don't know -- but I'd be interested to hear the answer

bottom line of course is that your motivations are rather secondary to me so long as we're fighting for the same things.

[PassingFair]

69. Maybe your BASIC HUMANITY.

They think they are "plugged in", Skittles.

They do not understand that the energy is
generated within themselves.

[Skittles]

71. I'm not sure

I wonder how many people do things "through their church" in an effort to go to heaven - self-serving stuff with a benefit

[Zhade]

48. "I think you'd have to look pretty far..."

Not really. Just look at the threads about the Mt. Soledad cross debacle, or any "roadside crosses placed by local government" threads.

Not every liberal believer is as grounded in the SoCaS as we both would wish.

But yeah, I know you can't separate the two in a person, and I really don't want that. I just get tired of hearing candidates trying to out-Jesus each other. We atheists, and non-Christians, often feel excluded from the public debate in those cases.

I think a person's actions should speak louder than their pious words.

Your post is reasonable, and your points worthy of notice. Still, I can't help but dream of a day when one's personal religious affiliation doesn't even come up in discussion of politics. I wouldn't want to enforce that, I just hope for it.

[pnwmom]

51. Liberal Christians get very hard of hearing fundies drag their

idea of Christianity into politics, too. Personally, I prefer Pres. Kennedy's approach. His religion was important to him, and I'm sure it informed his values, but he never used it as a political tool.

[Skittles]

53. what is really tiresome

is the implicaton it is some sort of religious faith needed to do the right thing

[Kailassa]

54. When told by a Christian that it's their faith

that impels Christians to do good things, it leaves me trapped between two implications.

It could be that they are suggesting non Christians will not do good things because they don't have the Christian beliefs that impel one to do good.

Or they could simply be admitting to the fact that they would not be doing good things if they did not have Christian principles.

There does not seem to be any understanding of basic caring and empathy.

If I'm upset or in pain, my big, half wild cat comes and snuggles up to me, and presses his wet nose against my forehead worriedly. Needless to say, he is not a Christian, he is just "someone" who cares. Like many humans I know, he shares the happiness and sadness of those around him, and tries to help because that's his nature.

Looking at the way empathy and altruism help a society as a whole to survive, it makes sense that these traits have evolved. Caring and helping have their own logic. The surprising thing is not that some people are driven by their natures to help others, the surprising thing is that not everyone is.

[Skittles]

56. yes

I am compassionate and I do things like donate a triple dose of platelets every two weeks (that is 100 minutes on a machine with a big needle in my arm, for cancer and surgery patients) - and send care packages to troops I don't know not because I am a Christian, which I am NOT - but because IT IS SIMPLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO

[JerseygirlCT]

62. And your actions should be lauded -- absolutely.

One of the warmest, most giving people I've ever known always behaved exactly as we'd been taught to behave in Catholic school and church. She was absolutely without any religious belief. Didn't change her natural empathy and her ability to go beyond that to ACTION. Puts me to shame, she does.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. I think their faith is so intrinsic to who they are that the idea

that they'd NOT behave well, with empathy and concern for others, just isn't part of the equation.

Perhaps it's a natural state for them, and what drew them to religion in the first place? I don't know. Perhaps it's a gift some people have and some of those people express it through religion, while others do not?

It's an interesting question.

And, yes, it's a sore shame that it's not something simply practiced by every human being toward every other human being. I wouldn't really care if God motivated that, or not. In fact, as a believer, I rather suspect God doesn't care about the motivation -- simply the result.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Not required, but it is often a religious faith that motivates

religious people.

That absolutely doesn't rule out moral and ethical behavior from people without a religious belief.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. The only thing I could hope for in that "out-Jesus-ing" thing

is that liberal Christians call those other guys' bluff: if they really want to follow Jesus, then they can stop advocating war, start fighting poverty and hatred. Start taking care of the environment.

Jesus wasn't terribly concerned with abortion or gay marriage, YKWIM? Those are only two of the most obvious ways those right-wingers masquerading as followers of Jesus like to use religion as a cover for their bigotry.

I don't think we really have much argument. I understand why you feel as you do -- I've got loved ones who share your sentiments. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that actions speak louder than words. Absolutely true.

[Zhade]

73. We're cool. You guys got hit by secular shrapnel from my anti-fundie gun.

I'm VERY concerned with the eroding wall between church and state, the post I replied to contained a poorly-constructed confusing sentence - it's okay, we're all on the same page.

Sorry for the heat, but props on sticking with it and not raging out on me. You seem a good person, and I'd like more positive interactions between believers and non here.

Peace!

[JerseygirlCT]

76. Me too! And thanks! Believe me I understand and share your

concerns.

[Zhade]

80. I "believe" (ha!) that you do.

:)

[JerseygirlCT]

81. LOL nt

[pooja]

64. I don't want the Gov't in my Church... and vice versa.

[JerseygirlCT]

66. Yup. That's the beauty of it.

And it always amazes me that some people don't see that, they're so blinded by "everyone MUST see things just the way I do!".

[Zhade]

72. Good enough for me! Peace!

NT!

[earth mom]

67. I'm SO with you.

Keep religion out of politics-Period. Why can't people just do the correct thing because it's the correct and right thing to do?! :banghead:

[GeorgiaDem69]

85. You aren't going to keep religion out of politics

And a lot of "doing the right thing" is driven by your values, which for many people are influenced by their religious beliefs. Moreover, (in my opinion) there's no valid argument that religion in politics, at least a candidates personal beliefs, is unconstitutional. A politician shouldn't attempt to impose their beliefs on others, and the state shouldn't favor one religion over another (which seems to me is something the Bush administration does).

Read "American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation" by Jon Meacham for a fairly decent look at religion in American politics.

[Mr_Spock]

39. Jesus, my liberal brother, is happy to hear this!

Yay! Let's hope the liberal teachings of Jesus can be brought back to the fore in the church.

[Voltaire99]

57. Dear Liberal Christians: thanks, but no thanks.

Deal with your identity issues in church. Try to keep them out of politics. We don't need liberal any more than we need conservative Christian theocrats; we need secular government, mankind's best hope in an age of violent mysticism.

Yours,

V99

[JerseygirlCT]

63. I find it really, really hard to imagine an Liberal Christian theocrat

If they're liberal that sort of negates the idea of a theocracy, doesn't it?

[pnwmom]

79. Liberal Christians aren't theocrats. Their beliefs impel them

to work for social values, not to become little dictators. I've never heard of any that don't believe in separation of church and state.

On the other hand, their work in social action is an expression of their faith. Do you think a nun stops being a nun when she steps out of her apartment and goes to work in a soup kitchen?

[KittyWampus]

65. Thank Goodness People Are Beginning To Wake Up

[pezdespencer]

75. I'm a liberal christian

Jesus was the ultimate pacifist so why would he want us in Iraq killing his sheep

Jesus promoted feeding the hungry. Not making people starve

Jesus promoted healing the blind not just the physically blind. the blind that support people like George Bush. Truly need to be shown the light.

Jesus promoted love,peace,tolerance,understanding. Not hate,war,individualism, and close mindedness

these are the things my faith are based around and I do not see this in the so called "Conservatism Party" I see just the opposite. how some can get the teaching of Jesus so misconstrued evades me, and saddens me.

If I see someone staving in the streets I would feed them not sent the money to a big oil company and hope they will feed that person after they pay there stock holders.

I hear moral compass a lot with the Republicans there compass must be broken.

If I ever had a minister trying to tell me who I should vote for I would never attend there church again.

I am just doing my fathers (Jesus) business.

[BenDavid]

82. I have always thought

Jesus was a liberal. Based upon a story that I read I do believe was in the book of James. To set the story up. There were this brother and sister that were in need of food and clothing. One man, I call the conservative is walking the road with a snarl on his face and he comes upon them, and sees their plight. He looks them over and tells them, let's pray. They pray, and the man turns away and leaves. Brother and sister still in need of food and clothing.

Now here comes the liberal walking down the road with a song in his heart and a smile on his face. Comes upon the brother and sister, and tells them, come with me, and he takes them over to the local cafe and he feeds them, and then afterwards he takes them and they find some clothes. Now the liberal looks at them and says, brother and sister, may we all pray and give thanks for all we have been blessed....They pray and the liberal man walks away. Now which one did the work that Jesus commanded his followers to do?