Pope: Low birth rates in Canada due to 'pervasive effects of secularism'

[quaoar]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=83d60afc-ec9a-4004-a0d4-1d86ec5b6257&k=7952

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict said Saturday that low birth rates in Canada are the result of the "pervasive effects of secularism" and asked the country's bishops to counter the trend by preaching "with passion" the truth of Christ.

The pontiff's comments to visiting bishops from Canada echoed his statements last month to members of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, when he said that a lack of true love was behind an increase in failed marriages and a decrease in birth rates in much of the developed world.

"Like many countries . . . Canada is today suffering from the pervasive effects of secularism," Benedict said, speaking in English.

"The attempt to promote a vision of humanity apart from God's transcendent order and indifferent to Christ's beckoning light, removes from the reach of ordinary men and women the experience of genuine hope," the pope said. "One of the more dramatic symptoms of this mentality, clearly evident in your own region, is the plummeting birth rate."

[Kerrytravelers]

1. Low birth rates in Canada are the result of the high cost of living.

In this over-populated world where many go hungry, I can not believe people who are concerned with "low birth rates." According to john gibson, all white people need to get together and out-breed everyone else. Make haste!!!!

[Jersey Ginny]

7. Yes, we are over 6 billion.

We are destroying our planet because of our enormous needs. I never understand this low birth rate issue. It sounds like a good thing to me.

[Blue_Tires]

74. try 6.5 bil now....

we crossed that mark a few months ago

[NVMojo]

18. damn straight!!

[SharonAnn]

65. Maybe the result of so many people becoming priests and nuns??

ROTFL!

[tabasco]

95. It is immoral for the Pope to encourage higher birth rates

when there are millions of starving people in the world.

The Catholic Church is doing many bad things.

Preaching no condom use to prevent AIDS and discouraging birth control is evil.

[saigon68]

122. Not to mention Sodomy on the rectums of children

How those priests could sodomize little boys like that.

He has done nothing except to get his Lap Dogs to draft new laws,

making it harder to sue his Corrupt Abominable sex deviant priests

[Kutjara]

2. Or pehaps...

...people are finally taking a bit of responsibility for themselves and their families and not swallowing the Catholic Church's 'procreationist' dogma any more.

Another country with a falling birthrate is the Church's heartland, Italy. People seem to realise that they can have meaning in their lives that doesn't involve foisting yet more humans on an overburdened planet.

Get lost, Benedict. Your medieval views are getting annoying.

[suziedemocrat]

60. Maybe St. Malachy was right and he will be the second to the last pope.

I really think the Catholic Church is becoming irrelevant, where they used to be dangerous. Ireland has been much better off since they stopped being so Catholic.

I was raised Catholic, but I look at it this way. If I wanted to lose weight, I wouldn't take advice from a company where a lot of the employees were extremely overweight. If I want to be closer to God and free from sin, I'm not going to take advice from a church were some of their best people (presumably a priest would be a better Catholic than a lay person after all that schooling) are pedophiles. When the Catholic Church can walk the walk, I'll listen to their talk.

Oh yeah, and Mother Earth called, there are already TOO MANY PEOPLE!!!

[DS1]

3. Or maybe the Vatican should be tracking the global rental rates of

The Passion of the Bung

[pooja]

6. HEADLINES: CATHOLIC CHURCH PAYS FOR PATRONAGE

Catholic Church promises to provide subsidies to Catholic parents to produce more children...Muslims convert....

[CatholicEdHead]

4. Well, the historical tradition of big Catholic families

is to not only multiply future generations, but also have a son or two at the parents "disposal" for the priesthood. The tradition also came about because of the odds of surviving in the early church, where many kids died from natural causes/diseases before they were mature.

This is not really a religious thing, but it is a form of "revangization" of the church.

[TheFarseer]

52. allow priests to get married and have kids

if you want higher birthrates

[Ringo84]

5. Buzz-word Alert

One of those buzz-words, like 'moral absolutes', 'worldview', 'new-age', etc.
Ringo

[IChing]

8. He must be watching John Gibson on Fox News

"Now, it's time for "My Word." Do your duty. Make more babies. "

or reliving his hitler youth eugenics program

[muntrv]

9. Pope Benedict did fight for the Nazis in WWII.

That would explain his obsession with populating the world with more kids.

[lastliberalintexas]

I don't think he fought for the Nazis in the literal sense

He was too young for even Germany to have sent him into battle, I believe. I believe that he was a member of the Hitler Youth, though even there you will find people who will absolve him of that membership since he was so young and was forced into membership by the times. :shrug:

I'm very anti-this Pope, and have even been accused more than once on this board of being anti-Catholic just for not liking their Pope or some of the Church's policies. But there are plenty of things to dislike about Pope Benedict without having to embellish the truth. Like, for instance, this idiotic stance on contraception when estimates are that 40-50,000 children die EVERY SINGLE DAY due to starvation, malnutrician and disease. But yes, let us all please create even more children so that they can suffer needlessly to only die by the age of 5. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

86. He NEVER fought for the Nazis.

In his memoirs, the new Pope wrote that he was enrolled in the Nazi youth movement against his will when he was 14 in 1941, when membership was compulsory. He said he was soon let out because of his studies for the priesthood.

Two years later he was drafted into a Nazi anti-aircraft unit as a helper, a common task for teenage boys too young to be soldiers. A year later he was released, only to be sent to the Austrian-Hungarian border to construct tank barriers.

He deserted the Germany army in May, 1945, and returned to Traunstein — a risky move, since deserters were shot on the spot if caught, or publicly hanged as examples to others.

www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050419.w2newpope0419/BNStory/Front/

There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize him. I suggest you find one.

[ReadTomPaine]

110. Plenty of other people found a way to avoid this or died trying.

I'd expect someone who was selected as an earthly representative of the divine not to put his own skin ahead of those who stood up and died for their principles. He should have refused to assist the worst monsters of the 20th century even if it meant his life. The previous pope found a way to do so at great risk. Ratzinger should have done the same.

He wasn't selected to run a business, he theoretically was picked because of his ability embody Catholic principles and represent 'god'. Call me old fashioned but somehow, I don't think representing god means a history that includes knuckling under for Hitler in exchange for his freedom and his life. That sounds like more like a deal with the devil. 14 is plenty old enough to understand this, especially if you believe this man touched by god for this role.

Should Jesus have cooperated with the Romans to save his own life?

YMMV

[Bridget Burke]

118. Well, I happen to believe that Benedict was a human being.

Not that he was "selected as an earthly representative of the divine" from infancy. Perhaps you're confusing the office of Pope with that of Dalai Lama?

I don't believe that he was "touched by God" as a 14-year-old. And I don't fault him for not rebelling & dying back then. What did YOU do at 14? Cut class & smoke in the parking lot?

[ReadTomPaine]

124. Again, Should Jesus have cooperated with the Romans to save himself?

The only confusion here is with those Catholics still in denial about the relevance of this action. Particularly in that time and era, 14 was old enough to know better, for many to know good from evil, right from wrong.

In fact, young men lied about their ages for a chance to enlist and stop Hitler. They certainly seemed to know better and there are graves all over Europe filled with their remains and those of other teenagers who were brave enough to choose good instead of evil, consequences be damned. Would you have joined the resistance, or collaborated and played it safe?

If there was ever a time to make such a choice that was it, and his decision was a dreadful mistake - a blight on his character that can never be erased or forgotten. One which clearly disqualifies him for his current position and goes against much of what the bible preaches in reaction to such circumstances. Martyrs are, after all, well regarded in Catholicism.

You seem to suggest that this past behavior on his part is irrelevant. That couldn't be more wrong. There is no better indicator of what a person will do and think than what they have done and thought in the past. A person who, even under duress, acquiesces to such evil for Faustian self preservation is simply not trustable to make such decisions in the future.

With such a record, I don't see how he can lay claim to the Papacy with any legitimacy. He should have simply removed himself from consideration, knowing his past errors in judgment were too severe to assure his future decisions would be wise. Know Thy Limitations, as it were. His failure to do this indicates his ambitions are still stronger than his conscience.

And as for your question regarding my own youth, don't point guns at messengers. Not everyone spent their teens as irresponsibly as others apparently did. I spent my youth protesting in civil rights marches, writing opinion pieces that were circulated regionally, raising money for progressive causes and spending summers knocking on doors trying to change the world one person at a time. I was confronted with violence for my beliefs on a regular basis, and many years later, I still am. That doesn't stop me, and it shouldn't stop you or anyone else.

[Bridget Burke]

126. Perhaps Jesus should have....

Read "King Jesus" by Robert Graves for an interesting version of the life of Jesus. It's "only a novel" & would make an interesting movie. And it would be quite a media scandal.

I'm not religious, personally. But I know that the Church teaches that sins can be forgiven. Many saints of the Church were NOT "pure" from birth. Stories of perfect babies who became perfect children who became perfect adults & were taken up to Heaven by troops of angels have been out of favor for a long time.

With your blemish-free background, it is a pity you did not enter the priesthood. Obviously, YOU should be Pope.

[ReadTomPaine]

128. If I were Pope...

I'd buyout Ferarri, make the ultimate Popemobile, and win F1. Then watch the new converts come pouring in.. :) I'll give Graves' book a try, love his other work.

[sarcasmo]

10. Look out Canada, the Theocracy freaks are coming for you NEXT.

[Monk06]

13. The largest population of Catholics are Quebecers and

the ultra conservative German pope Bene-dick
registers -10 on their Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter.

[formercia]

20. My parents came from Canuckistan

a couple of rabid right-wingers. They left Canada because it was too liberal.

Fortunately, all they did was produce a crop of Liberals..

[lumpy]

54. 'produce a crop of liberals'

my laugh for the day...hehe

[formercia]

56. ten of us and only one goes to church.

That's what happens when you try and ram it down our throats.

A sister goes to church. She became a Mormon. I don't know if that counts....

[SeveredMind]

70. I just had a mental image of...

...your parents shaking their heads in dismay as several blue-colored children started to grow out of the ground.

[Amonester]

11. Thanks, but, no thanks. Why does that Hitler's Youth member...

wants to interfere with internal immigration policies of a free nation?

Could it be that he finds our "donation$" not sufficient anymore? :shrug:

[AnOhioan]

12. Man I really despise Benedict

Falling birth rates?? Can't have that...less victims for priests who wanna play doctor and less people to send on the New Crusades

:sarcasm:

[GOPNotForMe]

14. Oh, SHUT UP, POPE! You are irrelevant.

Completely and utterly useless. A feckless ossified out-of-touch antique from an era to which no sane person wants to return. Your views are as idiotic as your clothes.

[arewenotdemo]

17. nicely put

I couldn't agree more.

[arwalden]

15. Make More CHILDREN... We Need More CHILDREN.

[TrogL]

45. Oh, the irony

[arwalden]

83. The Whole Thing Creeps Me Out.

:heebie-jeebies:

[question everything]

16. Wait a sec... where is the sale? Of the church's possessions

of course. Of its huge property, so that people will be able to provide for their families the basic necessities, and more, and then retire in dignity.

As Earl Butz said some 30 years ago: play or shut up (in more colorful words).

[Critters2]

113. They 're going to need that property

for the court settlements.

[OKthatsIT]

19. Nahhh..its Depleted Uranium side effects, silly!

Shiiiiiit, the Pope thinks he knows everything, dont he?

[ConcernedCanuk]

21. If this wasn't so ridiculous, it'd be laughable

.
.
.

As one poster indicated, the high cost of living is a major consideration.

We have huge heating costs due to our climate.

You don't see too many large houses 100 miles north of our border, except for "cottages" of the well-to do.

We just can't afford to HEAT a large house/mansion.

And jobs up North just do not pay as well as those in our major cities - where, of course the rent/cost is much higher than up North.

Canada is 9.9 million square kilometres, slightly larger than the USA's 9.6 million square kilometers

We got 31 million people, the USA has 298 million

And we sell numerous resources to the USA, our wood, steel, petroleum products and food products.

So "WHO NEEDS who??"

We be fine keeping our population low -

We can be self sufficient if our governments don't continue prostituting our resources to the USA.

And despite some people's misconceptions,

We spend less of our GNP per capita on Health-care (which is universal) than the USA does with all their uncoordinated HMO's, and STILL have 43 million of their people with no Health Coverage.

SO

Mr. POPE

Concentrate on getting the pedophiles out of your "organization!!

SHEESH!!

[Vinca]

22. Pope Ratzy wants us to breed like lemmings and then starve

to death because the planet can't support us. Suggestion to Ratzy: liquidate some of your art and feed the dying children of Africa.

[Fire Walk With Me]

109. Remember the dark ages? It worked out quite well for the church.

A desperate, ignorant population with only one source of warm fuzzies and the promise of paradise is a fine combination. Africa would be a good addition...

Somewhere in there, Christ said some magnificent things. Sigh.

[hyphenate]

23. What a load

of utter bullshit.

Canada is smarter than most countries and is maintaining a stable population, while still having a good amount of space in which to expand, if necessary. Intelligent and socially conscious people don't breed like rabbits.

The world is overpopulated enough without adding to the strain we are already placing on natural resources and nonrenewable ones. What--does the idiot Benedict want to see 10 or more kids in every family again? What an obnoxious asshole.

[Lisa]

76. and our population IS increasing -- but primarily through immigration

Francophones from all over the world are choosing to settle in Quebec. The vast majority of Quebecois whom I've met, even if their ancestors arrived in the 1600s, have no problem with this .. they like having a vibrant cosmopolitan society. Our current Governor-General is from Haiti, and she adopted a child from an orphanage in her former hometown. If the Pope does not like the concept of Canada's getting new citizens from other countries rather than relying mainly on our birth rate ... he ought to have brought the matter up with her when she visited him.

[riona]

24. And there's more

:spank:

[Berry Cool]

25. Quick! Let's send John Gibson to Canada!

That way, he can help Canada make more babies and he'll be out of Americans' hair!

He's pale, rested and ready!

[Orsino]

26. Canada doesn't seem to be suffering...

...nearly as much as the Pope does.

[pschoeb]

27. Uhm, the Vatican has a near zero birth rate

And the Catholic church promotes encoureging people to live celibate childeless lives as nuns and priests, isn't this the most silliest form of hypocricy.

[leesa]

28. Let's hear it for secularism then. We don't need more babies than we

already can't feed.

[sofa king]

38. With you all the way.

Thanks for pointing out a rare success story in a world hurtling toward its own demise.

[primavera]

102. Second that

Individual humans are great, but, let's face it, as a species, our collective impact on the rest of the planet leaves a lot to be desired - the last thing the world needs is still more of us running around cutting down forests, draining wetlands, tearing up the earth with mines and wells, polluting the air with toxic emissions, poisoning the oceans, and, oh yeah, altering the climate of the entire planet.

[Spazito]

29. I love it, absolutely love it....

"Canada is today suffering from the pervasive effects of secularism". Yep, and those pervasive effects are why Canada is as successful as it is. Religion isn't part of the policy decision-making, the well-being of Canadians is the focus. Even the right-wing minority government temporarily in power knows not to try and use religion as the formation of policy. They know if they push it they will lose, without question, the next election.

The pope can go stuff himself, imo.

[AnneD]

92. I wish I...

could suffer from the pervasive effects of secularism. :hi:Spazito. Ya'll sound like my kinda people.:spray:

[Spazito]

97. Hey AnneD! I tell ya pervasive secularism is awesome!

It means decisions are made on what is most beneficial to Canadians instead of what is most beneficial for the coffers of any religious organization. It means people of faith practice it privately instead of using it as a political hammer to restrict the rights of others.

We do, however, have a very small but vocal minority who would very much like Canada to mirror the religious right in the U.S. and we have to keep our antennae up for sure!

[AnneD]

98. Don't ever let your guard down...

and remember the USA as a cautionary tale.

[Spazito]

101. Canadians are watching what is happening in the US with

an equal amount of increasing sadness and wariness. Pierre Elliot Trudeau remarked that Canada’s relationship with the United States is like that of “a mouse in bed with an elephant…no matter how friendly…one is affected by every twitch and grunt.”

Trudeau was correct and we Canadians need to safeguard that which we hold dear.

[iverglas]

119. posted in wrong place, n/t

how did I manage that?

[area51]

30. "Low birth rates in Canada"

If Pope Ratzo would just start caring about the people already here on Earth instead of worrying about alleged low birthrates....Various countries have poverty, low/no access to healthcare, & there should be more stem cell research to help those already here; try doing something about that, Ratzo. :eyes:

[ozone_man]

31. "suffering from the pervasive effects of secularism"

:rofl:

Get used to it Pope. It's what an educated population does. We have more than enough people in the world. It's time to move beyond the shackles of organized religion including the RCC's absurd concepts of sin. Unfortunately Mexico is still listening to the Catholic Church when it comes to contraception. This has to change if we want to solve the illegal immigration problem. This along with the implementation of fair trade policies and other economic improvements for Mexico.

[AX10]

32. Benedict is Intolerant and a bigot.

i.e: "suffering from the pervasive effects of secularism"

So secularists are "perverted" now? :eyes:

Secularism is has good and bad just as all religions do Benedict.

[Canadian Socialist]

33. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here

"pervasive" doesn't mean perverted. He means that secularism is everywhere in Canada. Which is a good thing, imho.

[JudyM]

34. So implying that overpopulation's ravages to the earth are due to religion

I would not disagree.

[roguevalley]

64. so basically, he should endorse polygamy if he wants scads of

potential parishioners. On CNN the other night, a disenfranchised polygamist grandpa and grandma were mourning not being able to see their 120 grandchildren. chew on that image for a moment.

[JudyM]

82. I'll get flamed for this, but I think there should be limits on the number

of kids a person should be able to have. Not claiming to know what that number is, and I know we can't enforce zero population growth, but if a couple has more than 10 kids, say ...

[IndianaGreen]

35. The German Pope wishes he had the power of the Borgia Popes

Thankfully, we have come a long ways from ancient beliefs in blood-thirsty gods demanding obedience and sacrifices.

Benedict's hoped-for-world is one in which women are mere baby factories, gays are send to the brausbad/crematoria, and the Church is the supreme arbiter of human affairs.

[Kolesar]

85. Can always depend on I.G. for the liveliest verbiage in the thread

:loveya:

[lastliberalintexas]

87. I'm afraid we haven't come as far as you think

Or if we did advance that far, we are very rapidly regressing to Ye Days of Olde.

[Joanne98]

36. Why doesn't he mind his own business.

Italy has a lower birthrate than Canada. He should just shut up.

[lastliberalintexas]

89. I believe I've seen a report showing that all the

industrialized/Western/1st world nations ahve zero to negative birth rates, and that the populations of those countries are only increasing due to immigration. Most of Europe and even the US should apparently be criticized by the Pope as well.

[kiraboo]

37. Nothing turns me on so much as somebody preaching to me

with passion the truth of Christ. You?

[retrospective66]

39. Be Fruitful and Multiply

Eye-Yie-Yie :eyes: ..... I think we already have. Now we've got to chill.

Much of this is demographic. Canada went through a baby boom around the same years we did. Now like ours, their population is aging. Of course there will be less children as women move beyond the years they can or want to have babies.

[The Wielding Truth]

44. Thank you for your logical perspective.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

40. Hope is a vastly overrated and deeply abused commodity

When ordinary men and women have more control over their own destinies, those who wish to keep their hands on the reins call it by dirty names. The corporations call it socialism. The Church calls it secularism.

When ordinary men and women have more control over their own destinies, they don't need hope. They have power.

[earth mom]

43. Love that line-may I use it?

:applause:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

46. Be my guest

Glad you enjoyed it.

[earth mom]

99. Thank you-I appreciate it! Please check out my new sig line!

:hi:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

116. Wow, cool!

I've been quoted! Thank you! :D :hi:

[LongTomH]

41. Canada 41, Pope 0

Replies, that i!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Battin at thousand, aren't you Bennie?

[JerseygirlCT]

42. Maybe I missed it

I mean, the part where Jesus talked about the evils of birth control? And the requirement for women to bear zillions of children?

[lastliberalintexas]

90. And if it really is so important

that people have offsrping, why is it so scandalous to allege that Jesus may have had some kiddos himself? :shrug:

[JerseygirlCT]

104. Yup, and of course, priests must be male and celibate... nt

[hedgehog]

111. He discussed in in the famous Sermon on the Pill

A scribe mis-copied this as the Sermon on the Hill, and later translations labeled it the Sermon on the Mount.


Seriously though, I wish the Pope would take his stance from Christian scriptures and not from strictures against birth control left over from a time when the Roman Empire was trying to expand its pool of native born soldiers!

[SoCalDem]

47. Hah.. Those women of old were going to church all the time

to pray that they were NOT pregnant again for the unmpteenth time..

When people have fewer children, they can actually have a life BEYOND changing diapers, nursing babies, and going to church..THAT'S what bugs the catholic church.

It always bothers me when the Vatican urges people to have huge families, but I don't see them helping financially.

People are not living on farms anymore...they don't need to grow their onwn farmhands these days..

[genieroze]

48. pervasive effects of secularism? Are priests secular? Allow priests to

marry or shut up! Make it mandatory the white priests have no less then ten kids. :sarcasm: Sig Heil Pope Nazi!

[Exiled in America]

49. Six billion miracles are enough. ;)

[Canuckistanian]

50. Birthrate determines hope? That's a new one.

So, when I and my wife decided to have only one kid, that means we lost all hope?

And we know many couples who are childless and not even interested in adopting. Does that mean they're living in absolute despair?

That must also mean that celibate priests and nuns never had a chance for hope.

Papa Ratzi must have a radically different concept of the word.

[TheFarseer]

51. Low birth rates are because

no one can afford to have more than a couple kids. Actually, I think there is an over-population problem. How else do you explain all the famine, refugees, polution, destruction of animal habitat and disease in the world?

[lumpy]

53. What is this worry about low birthrates?

For pete's sake the world is being taken over by human beasts to the exclusion of flora and fauna. It isn't as though the human race is going to die out any time soon. The Chinese have the sense to realize that too many people are just too many people.
What really doesn't make sense is that some dried up old bachelor in Italy can be a Decider about how other people are going to conduct their lives.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

55. Okay, the Pope is telling Canada to spend more time fucking?

What's wrong with that. They might get more converts if they start pushing that.

You could have fun with memes on this...

[Buns_of_Fire]

103. Amen! Screw for Jesus! Hallelujah!

Pretty soon, the 700 Club will have to be carried on the Playboy Channel with parental warnings. Rev. Moon will not only conduct mass marriages, he'll preside over thousands fornicating in the streets like rabid weasels. The pretzeldent will no longer give out medals of freedom, he'll give out "Golden Bunny" awards to couples who have... well... most successfully made like bunnies.

THIS... could be interesting! :evilgrin:

[slackmaster]

57. Sruggling to find a down side to secularism or Canada's low birth rate

Can anyone help me out?

[Lisa]

77. I suppose we might have to re-organize our tax system

Once the baby boomers start retiring, we'll have to figure out how to pay for pensions and medical care if the proportion of workers dwindles, relative to retirees ... but this is something which all industrialized countries (including non-Western ones like Japan) will have to cope with, this century. And there will probably be some shifts in things like education (not as many primary schools, and more continuing education and postgraduate schools). But these aren't really "down sides", especially in terms of things like pressure on the environment.

When one considers the types of problems faced by developing countries like Afghanistan, where most of the population is under 18 and there isn't enough money to pay for schools and prenatal care, so there's high infant mortality -- Canada's future really doesn't seem to be as difficult.

Here are some interesting animated population pyramids showing projected changes.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/kits/animat/pyone.htm

[Endangered Specie]

58. Ah Hah!... I figured it out: Fewer births means fewer new alter boys

Conflict of interest rears its ugly head yet again.

[stepnw1f]

73. lol(nt)

[femrap]

59. You know I get a little sick and tired of

this pope yakking about women having more and more babies when he and the priests don't even marry, know squat about raising children, and should be spending lots more time tracking what their pedophiles are up to. Maybe if the priests could marry, they wouldn't look like such hypocrites.

I'll never forget when the last pope went to Mexico and told all of the poor women to have more and more babies because the church needed priests.

Catholism gets on my nerves....not Catholics.

[OnionPatch]

61. Low birth rates are a good thing

:applause: I'm sorry but there are way too many people in this world. I am not anti-people; The less people there are, the better the quality of life there can be for the ones who are here. It's just that simple. The pie (Earth's resources) can only be cut into so many pieces before those pieces get too small for everyone and everyone starts fighting over them. I'm always glad to read stories like these. This reaction by the pope and fundies to this kind of news is nothing but bigotry, IMO. They're worried that western Christians will be outnumbered. :eyes: I remember having this conversation years ago with a conservative Catholic. He was very worried but I told him I didn't see the problem. :shrug:

[noamnety]

62. what an unfortunate word choice

I don't have a good feeling about priests creating more babies by preaching "with passion."

[roguevalley]

63. men in dresses who don't have sex (maybe) commenting on this

topic make me laugh out loud. Besides, didn't they pass a bull a few back that said even sex to procreate was wrong? I remember it. It was so medieval and pathetic.

[kitty1]

66. As a Canadian with two sons, I can tell you.....

that lack of hope or sprituality had nothing to do with our decision to have only two children. For practical reasons, we decided that two was the perfect number of kids for us. We were able to put more time and resources into both of them. Life has been very full and fulfilling with my boys. (Both 17 and 15 now) I can honestly say that for me personally, having 4 or 5 children would have been difficult to cope with. A lot more stress with balancing everything in life overall. My Irish immigrant grandmother on the other hand had 9 kids,and they were raised on a farm. I have to give her credit for managing that. A whole different kind of life back then though.

[Lisa]

78. big families make more sense in an agricultural economy ...

I'm Canadian too -- my parents both came from large immigrant families (not unusual for Protestants either). This was in the pre-war days when most people were farming or fishing, and needed extra hands around the place. Plus, as my folks keep reminding me, there was no medicare or old-age pension in "the good old days" (both families lost kids due to illnesses/accidents so there was that to consider as well).

None of my parents' siblings had more than 3 kids each, and among my many cousins, many of us put off having children until our 30s, had just 1 or 2, or didn't have any at all. My dad is a retired teacher, and says that he doesn't mind if he has no biological grandchildren, because helping build a stable peaceful society (through his work, and his tax dollars) is also a type of legacy.

As you say, things were different back then -- Canada has changed a lot since my parents were my age.

[HockeyMom]

112. As my Mom always said to me (Only Child),

your right to NOT be a Mother, trumps my "right" to be a Grandmother. Very forward thinking for a Catholic Italian woman born in 1920. It is the individual's choice.

I agree with her. I have two children (daughters) by choice and have quoted my Mom many times to them.

[depakid]

67. Another EXCELLENT example of why religion & science

do not mix.

This guy is really becoming an embarrassment.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bleedingheart]

69. family planning == good ...means people can feed and care for

children they have...

[JackDragna]

71. Thank God for the pervasive effects of secularism.

nt

[stepnw1f]

72. GOOD... We Have OVERPOPULATION on this Planet

that is by the way being destroyed, hence GLOBAL WARMING!!!!! Jeez...

[loudestchick]

75. My next door "squatters" are members of that particular fertility cult.

They have 5 children under the age of 13 and she's pregnant w/ #6. They've moved in with her mother...all of them. She home-schools...to protect her children from "ungodly influences" I think she means science.

[Lisa]

79. does he want to roll back "The Quiet Revolution"?

A lot of people in Quebec have negative impressions of the way things used to be ... when the church ran everything and told people what to do (and also the anglos were the bosses and professionals with the best jobs, but the church did nothing to change that).



"Since the first days of New France, the Catholic Church had assumed the task of educating the young. In the early 1960s, the system - and the curriculum - were archaic, obsolete and produced one of the highest dropout rates in the country; half of all Quebec students were leaving school by the age of fifteen.

Those who wanted a higher education found a system designed for a few chosen souls.

"Our mission was to train the elite," said Claude Brouillet who taught at a classical college near Montreal. "We had some sons of working-class people. To be able to get (financial) help, they had to have a recommendation from the parish priest.""




http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpisContent.html&series_id=1&episode_id=16&chapter_id=1&page_id=1&lang=E

[applegrove]

80. Shame on us. Standard of living has been rising since the advent of

the birth control pill and the like. How dare we have the option of investing in children by investing in them.. rather than going for numbers of children.. like the poor everywhere have always had to do.

[TrogL]

81. Canada is barely supporting its infrastructure now

What we need right now is skilled workers for the oil patch (and pretty much any other occupation). Babies are not going to help right now - they'll just be a strain on the infrastructure.

[lastliberalintexas]

91. That might be a very good thing for people like me

and many members of my family who would very happily move to secularist Canada. :)

[TrogL]

125. C'mon up

Take the test

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html

[Skittles]

84. someone really needs to tell him to shut the f*** up

I can't believe people actually revere this silly old man

[Bridget Burke]

88. Why don't you let people make up their minds...

About what he says?

Quite a few who consider themselves good Catholics are quite capable of making their own decisions about what Church doctrines to follow.

[Skittles]

105. cherry picking

I wish more people would say, hey, this other stuff, not only do I not like this, it is UNACCEPTABLE.

[iverglas]

121. what a very odd thing to say

Why don't you let people make up their minds...
About what he says?

Was the person you were addressing stopping anyone from making up his/her own mind?

The Pope is expressing his opinion, and you say that RCers are capable of making their own decisions about what RC church doctrines to follow.

Quite apart from the fact that this is a bizarrely simplistic approach to take to pronouncements by the pope -- and particularly US/Euro-centric, ignoring many places in the world where papal pronouncements are given considerably more weight both in the public sphere and in individual's minds, as a result of a variety of factors -- the person you were addressing was also expressing an opinion.

The pope's remarks about who knows how many millions of individuals whom he does not know, and about Canadians in particular, were grossly offensive. That's my opinion, and I'll express my own opinion that someone who makes grossly offensive remarks about me and anyone else about whom he has no business saying anything at all should shut the fuck up whenever I want, too. You can feel free to express your opinion about what I say, but of course.

You might want to suggest that the pope should let people make up their own minds. He seems to be the one trying to get people to do as he says, and being dishonest and ugly for that purpose.

[Seabiscuit]

93. Yo, Pope Ratzorizzo - have some more koolaid, ya looney!

[Book Lover]

94. Ratzi, when you have been married with children for as long as I have

I will start paying attention to your ideas about how I should live.

[geiger]

96. Is the Pope sett'g quotas. Maybe he should pray 4 warmer weather up there

:popcorn:

[yellowcanine]

100. The pope doesn't understand basic socioeconomics.

When incomes and living standards increase birth rate goes down.

It has nothing to do with secularism.

The Pope is practicing faith based socioeconomic analysis.

In other words he doesn't know wtf he is talking about.

[Stockholm]

106. LOL and the Vatican is procreation central of Europe? n/t

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

107. Where have I heard that phrase before?

Oh yes, it was the shared motivation of both Leo Strauss and Sayed Kotb with respect to the U.S.A. in the 1950s. This drove them to form the Neo-Conservative and Radical Islamist Fundamentalist movements, respectively.

That's now working out really well for the planet, isn't it?

Obersturmunddrangfuhrer Joey Ratz can kiss my secular freckle.

[Buck Rabbit]

108. How many kids did Jesus father? /nt

[karlrschneider]

114. And Jebus had ...how many kids?

fuck a buncha popes

[Doremus]

115. Does anybody care what the pope (any pope) says anymore?

I can remember back in the 50s and 60s, when the Pope issued an edict it was a big deal. Friends would obsessively follow all the rituals like abstaining from meat on Fridays, no birth control, etc. I don't see that sort of earnest participation anymore.

I think the pope is pretty much irrelevant to most people today, even many Catholics.

[arikara]

117. Why do I suspect this is code for

European style caucasians to kick up production. He must realize that the population of the world is already too high. Canada could take in lots of willing immigrants from African and Asian countries if we really need more people.

[iverglas]

120. he's probably right

The RC church helped to keep the population of Quebec impoverished and benighted for decades, in large part through its demand that women spend their lives producing more and more children. Came the Quiet Revolution and the various other complex economic and social changes of the mid-late 20th century, and with it a dramatic drop in birth rates. Just like anywhere else: development and smaller families go hand in hand, as do underdevelopment and large families.

Most Quebeckers self-identify at present as RC, but that has very little effect on their lives. Quebec has the highest rate of non-married couples living in conjugal relationships, including couples with children, of any province, as one indicator of how much of a fig they give about what Pope whateverhisnameis has to say.

Overall, nearly 20% of Canadians reported having "no religion" in the 2001 census, nearly double the 1991 figure. This is a truly excellent thing.

[BigDDem]

123. So, the Catholic church wants there to be more children....

[w4rma]

127. It's too bad every country doesn't have "low birth rates".

"Low birth rates" are a good thing, imho.