High-tech tags may track kids in TUSD

[Lady Effingbroke]

<snip>

Millions of consumers pay extra to put tracking devices in their cars in case of theft.

But would parents want to shell out more money for something similar for their children? And would schools go for it?

The answer seems to be yes.

School districts around the nation are starting to hold themselves more accountable for the students they're paid to teach and protect. As part of the growing trend, officials in the Tucson Unified School District already are testing new technology that helps keep track of elementary students during the school day.

<snip>

LINK

[madaboutharry]

1. It is hard to know which side of this

issue to come down on. The world is not the one I grew up in. For instance, no one I know allows their children to walk to school. Keeping track of a child's whereabouts between home and school seems like a reasonable response to the real dangers kids face. The issue is protection of privacy and making sure the system is not abused. Keeping children safe should always be the primary concern.

[OKIsItJustMe]

5. I know what side I'm on

... The world is not the one I grew up in. ...

My parents, watching events unfold in Cuba questioned whether theirs was a time to raise children. My perception as a child was that the assassination of political leaders in "America" was normal, that protests were violent, dangerous things, that my country had always been in a state of war, that nuclear war was not a matter of "if" but "when."

And yet... my peers believe that this is a much more dangerous time.

People have a perception, encouraged by the news media, and scare-mongering politicians, and other forces, that the world has changed from "the good old days."

This is the communcation age, where a single case of child abduction is followed intently across the nation, and laws are hastily written in every state. Parents perceive greater danger for their children. However I honestly don't believe the danger has increased that much (if at all.)

So, we spend lots of money to solve relatively insignificant problems, while much more troublesome problems (like poverty and the state of our education system in general) go largely unaddressed.

What will these children learn from their experience in school? That it's good to have "the state" keeping close tabs on them at all times? That no one is to be trusted? That no place is safe!?

[grasswire]

8. good post, thanks (eom)

[pooja]

2. This is good for children

Children need to be protected in a system that often times deglects and forgets the smallest people who don't have the power of the vote. It would be a peace of mind knowing if a child is abducted, we could simply track them by their imprint. I do not agree that adults should have this monitoring device.

[0rganism]

4. So the kids can become accustomed to the omnipresence of authority...

I would have to disagree that this is an untainted "good thing", for kids or adults. Too many questions come to mind. At what age do the kids get to ditch the device? By whose consent is it activated in the first place? What process does one go through to exclude an abusive parent from access to positional information? And so on.

This is already halfway down the slippery slope to Big Brother. At the rate we're going, it won't be long before internal RFIDs are as standard as Social Security numbers and you won't have a job without one.

The system, as described, does nothing to really address the safety of the students.

[pooja]

7. Do you have children?

If you do, you wouldn't give a shit. Protecting my child is better than the ultimate fear, pain, and anguish I would feel if I lost mine to a child abductor.

And, in this day in age with both parents having to be at work, I would feel much more comfortable tracking my teens where-a-bouts from my little cubicle office. These devices are already being implemented. There are not too many teens these days that do not own a cell phone. Also, cars are being outfitted with devices to know where your teen is driving. Lets face it population density is enlarging. Communities change. Mrs. Smith is not living in the same house for 40 yrs. In this modern day who can you trust. I trust my instinct as a parent to help guide my child through rights and wrong, but as a modern parent I will use technology to help me make sure that path is being followed.

A better question is who would have access to these monitoring devices?

[grasswire]

10. what are the chances of losing your child to an abductor?

Miniscule.

Living a life with every moment spent in fear of an unlikely event is not much of a life.

In most of America children from grade three up can walk to school, play in their neighborhood parks, go buy ice cream, ride bikes, etc., safely.

Suggestion: turn off your local news broadcasts. They exist to frighten you.

[anotherdrew]

11. so you'll sell liberty down the river for your precious "feelings"

the trackers will be located and cut out. going to google maps and seeing a little blip of where your kid is is nothing but bullshit, your children will despise you and curse you to the end of their miserable days if you fools permit this.

why not just have enough adults in the schools to watch the kids with their eyes? It worked fairly well for decades.

[gkhouston]

16. "the trackers will be located and cut out"

If the kid's being abducted as part of a custody dispute, I'd expect this to happen. Or if the child were being abducted for ransom, but that's fairly rare. In both of those cases, obtaining and keeping a particular child for an indeterminate period of time is important, so it would be worth the fuss of removing a tracker and possibly explaining consequent injuries on the child to inquisitive strangers.

If the kid's abducted by a sex offender, he/she might not bother. The child would become a single-use/quick-use victim: abducted, assaulted, and murdered within a few hours.

So this device which is hypothetically making our children safer could be making them less safe.

[anotherdrew]

24. less safe and worse... and what about runaways?

Next we'll have a generation of kids who in order to run away have to cut some chip out of their own bodies? For god sake people, think!

and how easy would it be to block the weak signal? It's just like a RFID isn't it? I doubt it would even be detectable through the walls of a creepy van. The ONLY use this will have is in cutting staff at schools further, relying on technology instead of people, and of course, it'll make some god damned piece of shit company rich.

PEOPLE - THINK!

you can't keep your kids safe if you can't see why this is a road striaght to hell

Remember child abduction is rather RARE. (despite what the media would have you think.)

[Occulus]

12. That's exactly what my mom argued with me about yesterday

Ended up screaming at each other.

Look, it's this simple: tracking your kids by a chip makes them more comfortable with implanted tracking technology. Do you want your kids living in a world where their employers require them to be chipped? Do you want them living in a world in which they're comfortable with this?

Do you want your kids living in a world in which they can be fired not only for what they do off the clock, but for where they go? Do you want their landlords evicting them because they drive through an area known for drug activity, perhaps stopping for a beer along the way?

Making them comfortable at an early age with being tracked 24/7 means that the world they live in as adults will have this technology omnipresent. They will have no real freedom, such as I experienced as a child. They will have no real privacy.

Consider this:

An employer, RA in a dorm, or in fact any known Authority takes issue with your child staying home from work/class/whatever. Using their tracking chip (of necessity linked to a GPS satellite), the Authority determines your "sick" child went to the store, a restaurant, the library, and then home, where they passed from room to room for hours on end.

What do you think the Authority will do to your adult child as a result of their movements?

Do you not think that is where this will end up? Is nobody willing to consider the law of unintended consequences "for the safety of the children?"

That perceived safety, as I said in an earlier post on this thread, is a misguided canard. No child is more important than the rights set forth in our Constitution, and we should not be willing to even, perhaps especially, voluntarily relinquish those rights for any reason- including the "safety of the children."

[gkhouston]

14. I do. No way in hell is one of these going into my kid. n/t

[truthisfreedom]

32. into? it's a wristband or belt-loop fob. it's not injected!

it's removable.

[Nostradammit]

18. We should lock your children in a small cage and monitor them

24 hours a day.

That way they will always be safe.

[Zhade]

28. *I* have a son, and *I* give a shit.

I do NOT want him growing used to the idea of constant surveillance by authority.

With all due respect, fuck that noise.

[0rganism]

40. If you'd READ the article, you'd see what they're doing is not helpful

Unless you're ready to take the step of tagging your kid INTERNALLY, a normal RFID is not going to make a difference to a serious abductor. First thing any kidnapper with a brain would do is look for any obvious RFID, like those wristbands or the belt clip units, take 'em off, and toss them out a car window into some bushes near a local park. Even an internal RFID could be foiled with adequate preparation, or lead to unfortunate consequences as a frustrated kidnapper decides to amputate a child's limbs in the hope of getting rid of any such devices.

Oh, by the way, I DO have a kid, and it distresses me that this society hasn't done nearly enough to address the CAUSES of crimes against children. Placing a false hope in an electronic device that will, at best, help locate the body after such felonies is hardly a replacement for a responsible system of competent oversight, and honest communication between children and adults, as well as between parents and the people who are responsible for their offspring throughout the day.

Want a way to track your teens from your cubicle? Try this: get them cell phones. Sure, you won't immediately stop any abductions, but you'll know the moment you call and they won't answer that somethings awry. That's reliable, since it requires active response from the person you care about. Plus, it's something most teens want anyway. Set up a couple times during the day when they're expected to call you, and you've already got a better system than what the TUSD has, for purposes of protecting them.

Then, make it clear to your kids that they're responsible for their own safety for much of the day. Not someone else, not some big brother peering over their shoulders, but they themselves have one life and it's only theirs to lose. Done properly, this may help keep them safe from the more prevalent causes of premature teenage death, such as reckless/intoxicated driving. And it doesn't even require violating their privacy -- whoa! Blinding flash of the obvious, eh?

[Occulus]

6. This is bad for the country

because it inculcates kids with the idea that it's okay to be tracked 24/7, even if they've done nothing wrong. "It's for their own good."

The problem is (and I know there are parents here who will be outraged by this statement) no one child is more important than our principles of freedom and privacy, among other American principles (not to mention, rights, as in, the Fourth Amendment). It is one very short step from school welcoming this practice to schools requiring it. It is a short step from there to employers "preferring" it, and from there to employers refusing applicants if they aren't chipped (so the employer can know when a sick day isn't really a sick day).

We as a nation should not be allowing this; the safety of children is an extremely misguided canard. This is not necessary and should be staunchly opposed by all Americans.

[pooja]

9. Children are in a separate category

They do not have the same rights as adults (defined by age 18). They cannot vote and they have no say. As parents, it is our jobs to protect these little ones and if technology can help us do our jobs better while we have to be at work and away from them, good!

[Occulus]

13. And does that mean that I as an adult am expected to

tolerate erosion of American principles "for the safety of the children?"

I think not.

[OKIsItJustMe]

20. Caring for children

Which is more likely? That children will be abducted from school, or that they will be morbidly obese, affecting their health for the rest of their lives?

While rates of childhood obesity are increasing dramatically, schools are eliminating recess and "physical education." While, at the same time, they are spending more and more on "security." What's wrong with this picture?

[Odin2005]

23. Exactly, parents wonder why kids are obese...

...yet at the same time don't let thier kids outside because they are afrid of child molesters so the kids are stuch in front of the computer.

We have become a nation of paranoid scaredy-cats thanks to the MSM scaring people. Rember the "Year of the Shark" that had less shark attacks then the year before? Same thing. The reality of the average American is determined by the BS in the MSM.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

38. I fear it would make things worse for our children

When a child is abducted, there is at least a chance that s/he will come out of the experience alive. I'm afraid this device would frighten those who prey on children into murdering them as well.

Besides that, it could serve as yet another Big-Brother style intrusion into people's lives.

[Robb]

3. Hell, they sell it for dogs, why not? nt

[libpunkmom]

15. As a parent I say..

HELL NO!! Not my kid. My kid is young (9) and I would never
do anything like this. This is insane. If parents are so concerned
about their child's safety to and from school, at school and so on, Then
become more involved with your child. You monitor you child. Not the
government, or any other agency!And I know that there will be people saying
that parents are so busy that they can't keep track of their own kids. It's simple make time. Make sacrifices. Your kid comes first!
(edited for spelling)

[americanstranger]

17. Are there plans to remove the tracking devices

when the kids graduate?

Somehow, I doubt it.

I can see it now. It Tuscon adopts this idea, then school districts across the country will figure that they have to do it, too (how's that for 'peer pressure?). Before you know it, a whole generation of kids would be implanted with tracking devices - and as someone pointed out upthread, the kids themselves would have zero say in whether or not to get the damn things.

That's one hell of a slippery slope, there.

-as

[OKIsItJustMe]

22. Nothing to "remove."

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/metro/131162

...
If the program is approved for a districtwide rollout in the fall, the company would give TUSD's 12,000 bus-riders from fifth grade down a plastic watchband, a small black box hooked to a belt loop or a key fob. The devices will let administrators, teachers and parents know when students get on a bus, when they get off, where they are at noon and when they're dropped off.
...

[americanstranger]

25. Then it's 'insufficient protection!'

What happens when this program is adopted, and then a kid is abducted and the wrist band or key fob is tossed out of a moving car window?

Not hard to surmise. In order for the continued protection of the children, those RFID tags simply must be sub-cutaneous!

And if you've made the leap to the wrist band/key fob idea, then it's just a little tiny hop to injecting a chip. Especially if tax money is paying for it and citizens are looking for a good ROI - ie, the protection of their kids.

They're halfway down the damn slope already by handing out the wrist bands, and don't even realize it.

- as

[Zhade]

29. ...YET.

Even if it's just an watchband, what's to say removing the watchband won't carry penalties for the kid, maybe his/her parents too?

This is insane. This is simply not a good idea!

[smokey nj]

31. It seems to be built into the plan

A watch band, nothing permanent. It's harmless. Eventually, something will happen and get 24/7 coverage on CNN and then parents will be rushing to their pediatricians to have RFID chips planted into their children. This isn't a slippery-slope, it's a nose-dive. I'm just glad my husband and I decided NOT to have children.

[Zhade]

35. Exactly - and welcome to DU!

NT!

[Occulus]

36. people have mentioned on this thread that we already do this to pets

But those chips are implanted (at least, the ones I've heard described are implanted).

It won't long remain a bracelet or necklace. In fact, kids might ask that it be put under the skin, because they might get in trouble when they lose it. Kids are very very smart these days, smarter generally than we were at their age, and they know such a thing can be done- especially if they've heard about pets being chipped, and certainly if their own pet is chipped.

What if the kid decides to go to the movies without calling mom? What if the kid decides it's not worth paying for getting the chip removed- after all, mom isn't looking anymore, because I'm in college now.

But Mom would never do that to her adult child- right?
But the boss would never look to see if you're partying, and punish you for calling in sick the next day- right??
But the police would never pull you over after you stayed at the bar for a couple hours- right???

And some want kids to get used to being chipped. Unintended consequences, people.... think about it for a minute.

There's no guarantee that mom- or someone else- can't look once you're an adult and the chip hasn't been removed. There's nothing saying police can't back-engineer these things- or buy the tracking snooper outright themselves- and use the chips already there, left in because it's too pricey to remove- and track the kid who has the chip.

The point is, making it acceptable and allowable for an entire generation will put them under the thumb of Authority forever. Police and government agencies will realize not all of them are removed, and they will act on that knowledge.

Allowing this will ultimately do horrible things to our children, which is to say, our future nation. Think of it as trading a short-term gain for a harm that lasts and lasts.

This will be abused by Authority if it becomes acceptable to our children, and our children will be harmed more as a result.

[OKIsItJustMe]

37. You're too late

On lots of college campuses, students gain access to their dorms using RFID cards. Lots of Mobil customers carry a little RFID fob so they can buy their gas. People are carrying RFID credit cards. RFID tires are on the way. (That means that not just the EZPass cars will be traceable.)

(And you're worried about a slippery slope!?)

[Odin2005]

19. WTF? This is INSANE!

[wakeme2008]

21. JUST BS period

The first thing a pedo would do is take the tracking arm band off....

Somebody is looking to make money on this for zero protection.

[Nostradammit]

26. Let me guess, some obscure Bush brother owns the company that makes 'em.

This country has gone completely mad.

[Demeter]

27. As A Parent, I Wouldn't Delegate Child Protection To Such a System

I always knew where my kids were, and with whom. And it was usually me. That much I owed them as a parent, to care.

This chip business is just one more way to absolve parents of being on the first front line of responsibility--

That is the price of parenthood. You do it right the first time, because you seldom, if ever, get do-overs.

Now, if they had such a system for wayward husbands......

[cmd]

30. From the school's point of view

I'm a retired teacher who has had children get off the bus and leave the schoolgrounds before coming inside. It is easy to do when several hundred children are arriving at the same time. Teachers are on duty, but often are busy problem solving for other children or parents. (Kids do get off buses with nose bleeds, lost lunches, nausea and vomiting.......)

As I stated, I have had children go missing between the bus and my classroom. One was located walking home at the intersection of a state highway and an interstate. The last two that went missing disappeared into a restroom where they went undiscovered for 30 minutes. These children were five year olds. Fortunately, no harm came to them, but they certainly gave us a fright when they appeared on the absent list and the parents said they had been put on the bus.

I have also lost children at the end of the day. They have forgotten to get off the bus at their stop. Bus drivers have had to finish their routes and then take the "lost" child home. Parents have been frantic when their child did not get off the bus. A tag or bracelet that had a tracking device would be a blessing in all these cases.

[ChazII]

33. And what do the

local and state associations have to say about this? I am in the Paradise Valley Unified School District --- at first reading, I would not want my district doing this. This just smacks too much of big brother for me.

[truthisfreedom]

34. I don't think this would work well against abduction unless the RFID tag

was hidden on their person somewhere. besides, the tag only works if it passes close to a sensor (mounted in a doorway or other confined area.)

keep in mind, these things are not POWERED. they can't TRANSMIT information anywhere... they have to be SCANNED by a powered device that turns them on and retrieves a number from them. the scanning devices might work at a distance of several feet, to possibly tens of feet with a high-powered scanner, but certainly these devices don't produce a sort of "blip" on some internet map... the only thing they do is help create a sort of inventory map showing when they last passed by a sensor, such as one in a bus doorway or school doorway.

this isn't as "big brother" as many of you think. it's only "big brother" if the RFID tag is INJECTED into someone and they're being tracked going into government or corporate buildings. we're talking about removable bracelets and belt-loop fobs, not tattooed numbers and injected radio beacon transmitters like researchers use for tracking polar bears.

essentially, it's an inventory monitoring system that has to be installed everywhere you want it to be active, and it tracks when kids go through doorways. that's it. they might as well be carrying id cards and scanning them at each door... it's just simpler. if a kid goes running off down the street, they are instantly "off the grid" and can't be tracked unless they go through an RFID checkpoint again. the only thing you know at that point is they got off the bus but never got into the school, and that fact can be determined quickly with a click of a mouse if a panicked parent calls the school wondering what's going on.

[acmavm]

39. Don't Americans have the where-with-all to stand up and accept the

daily uncertainties, however remote, that living entails. Have we become such a country of cowards that we're willing to become (or in this case let our children become) a blip on some authoritarian radar screen.

If my Mom had EVER done this to me I don't think I'd talk to her to this day. Just because of a parent's paranoia, the kid loses his/her freedom, his/her privacy, his/her experience in learning to live as an independent human being.

America, you are nuts.

[yellowcanine]

41. No more "going to the bathroom" and meeting your buddy from another class

in the stair well.

[noonwitch]

42. No way would I let them put one on any kid of mine

Not that I have any kids, but still. This is a way for the teachers and staff to let their guard down. Relying on technology over your own common sense is never a good thing.