NYT: On a Marine Base, Disbelief Over Charges (Haditha)

[sabra]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30voices.html?ex=1149134400&en=06fe28fa9009bd48&ei=5087%0A

On a Marine Base, Disbelief Over Charges

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif., May 29 — In this "company town" where everything and everyone caters to the well-being of the Marine Corps, there is no shortage of people, both military and civilian, who are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the troops accused of unjustified killings last November in Haditha, Iraq.

Denial and utter disbelief are the overwhelming reaction to reports of the killings involving marines based here. If there is any truth to the accusations, some say, then the troops must have been acting on direct orders, responding as they were trained to do.

Lawrence Harper, 36, now retired, served in the Marine Corps for more than 15 years, and was in the Persian Gulf war.

"Many times you see a situation the next day and wonder, how did my brain think this was dangerous?" Mr. Harper said, while shopping for gear at G.I. Joe's, a military supply shop in Oceanside.

...

Jerry Alexander, the owner of G.I. Joe's and a Navy man who served with the Marines for a dozen years, had much the same perspective, saying, "If I saw my buddy laying there dead, there is no such thing as too much retaliation."

[Avalux]

1. Gotta love this guy's logic:

Jerry Alexander, the owner of G.I. Joe's and a Navy man who served with the Marines for a dozen years, had much the same perspective, saying, "If I saw my buddy laying there dead, there is no such thing as too much retaliation."

So killing innocent women and children is OK Jerry?? Fuck you.

[rodeodance]

5. We used to be a nation of laws and the courts--. Retailiation if this

occurred, is NOT the way our nation should go/think--as horrible as the situation is.

[tanyev]

10. I don't know what religion Mr. Alexander is, if any, but Jesus was pretty

clearly against retaliation, too--a detail all too often overlooked by those who want to turn this country into a theocracy.

[Critters2]

29. My thoughts exactly

Wasn't there something about turnin' the other cheek? Seems like I recall...

[Bark Bark Bark]

38. Oh My, No...When It Comes To Retaliation

...Reightwingers suddenly drop any pretense of Christianity and go straight to the Old Testament's "Eye For An Eye" philosophy. Christianity is just another tool to them.

[Lexingtonian]

12. Cheap and stupid talk

Once the enemy gets to your wife and kids, Jerry, that kind of talk is just insanity.

[zreosumgame]

37. I bet the Iraqies feel the same way

but oh, wait we are at their wives and kids. Raping and killing them. Yeah, that's the way to win hearts and minds!


For OBL anyway...

[frylock]

14. wonder what his reaction would be if it were his wife or daughter..

laying there dead. I imagine there will be some retaliation for that, eh Jer?

[uppityperson]

25. "Navy man that served with the marines"?

doesn't navy serve with navy?

[Critters2]

31. Actually, the marines originally served with the navy

"Marines" were marine soldiers, land forces that were stationed on naval ships in case naval battles led to land ones.

[DinahMoeHum]

35. If that Navy man was a corpsman/medic, yes, they're with Marines.

n/t

[Virginia Dare]

"If I saw my buddy laying there dead,"

"there is no such thing as too much retaliation".

Including shooting small childrens' brains out?

I'm sorry, but that's just sickening.

[coalition_unwilling]

13. Isn't the mentality among the extreme RW to "Kill them all

and let God sort them out"? I seem to remember reading that some of the Christian right-wingers in the military had that attitude.

I'm not saying it's right or justified, just that I remember reading\hearing of that mentality being in the government and military.

[spinnaker]

23. "If I saw my buddy laying there dead,"

On NPR yesterday morning they interviewed the brother of the Marine killed by the bomb. It may have been the grief and he wasnt thinking straight but he was talking about how it is either their children or our children. I mean ... wtf !

[brentspeak]

2. Premature to make any judgements until both the investigation

and trials are concluded.

Anything else is simply knee-jerk lynch-mob mentality, the very reason why civilization has developed a criminal justice system in the first place.

[mike_c]

7. not so, IMO-- it is premature to ACT against the perpetrators...

...because they deserve not only a full investigation, but also a fair trial and a chance to defend their actions. But it is NOT premature to decry the atrocity itself, the cover up, or all the other atrocities like it that have been successfully concealed. It is precisely that public outrage that drives the criminal justice system-- justice is not the dry application of formulaic solutions, it is the affirmation of social standards of behavior, and it is invoked by the outcry of society at large.

[rocktivity]

19. Either they decided to kill civilians who were not posing a threat to them

or they didn't.

Handle the truth--or at least the possibility.

:headbang:
rocknation

[underpants]

20. Haven't there been confessions?

several of them in fact. I could have sworn that several of the Marines involved already confessed and were doing time.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. I think the Genie is out of the bottle this time.

No slamming the lid on this case...............

[mike_c]

4. "...there is no such thing as too much retaliation."

Against innocent people. This is the Nazi reaction, to embrace collective punishment. This is why wars of aggression are crimes against humanity.

[benburch]

6. "We were only following orders..."

http://www.news.harvard.edu.nyud.net:8090/gazette/2003/08.21/photos/23-nuremburg1-450.jpg

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu.nyud.net:8090/holocaust/gifs/10392.gif

I think we had enough of that excuse quite some time ago...

[Dunvegan]

9. Arrest BushCo All, and Let the Hague Sort Them Out....

[lebkuchen]

28. Don't forget the Hague Invasion Act

If US troops are cited by the International Criminal Court for war crimes, Bush can authorize US troops to invade the Netherlands to release them.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm

[progressivebydesign]

30. Thanks for posting that.. I've been trying to remind people here. n/t

[lebkuchen]

27. It's the only excuse available

You ain't heard the last of it.

[ixion]

8. the more we wage war on "Islamo-fascists", the more fascist we

become.

To see our greatest enemy, we need look no further than the bathroom mirror.

[natrat]

11. military type's blind allegance is cowardice

[leesa]

15. Well, which is it, retaliation or acting on orders? Not a lot of bright

bulbs. "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord"...American Christians forget that one alot

[Kagemusha]

17. Both, probably.

Sad to read this stuff. There's a reason why Congress, a civilian body, is in charge of laying down the laws the military is expected to live by.

[NorthernSpy]

16. the perps deserve to FRY

And anyone who makes excuses for them can go straight to hell.



How's that for moral clarity?

[Critters2]

32. Damned clear!!

I'm not a huge fan of frying, but I'd give 'em a nice, cozy hidey-hole to live out their natural lives in.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. You are asking for this when the marines are left someplace

to do "peace keeping". They have no mission there, there is no battlefield.

[pokercat999]

39. But they can quit and come home. All that takes

is morality and GUTS. Admittedly much more guts than killing innocents.

[Supersedeas]

21. no such thing as too much retaliation - Charles Gibson could have used it

[rocktivity]

22. TORO TURD!

"If I saw my buddy laying there dead, there is no such thing as too much retaliation."
Against the person who killed your buddy, or anyone who happens to be within striking distance--preferably unarmed?

Mr. Harper...said (the Marines)...undoubtedly acted on instinct, as trained, in the heat of battle.
Marines are trained to go to the nearest residential area, bust into homes, and start blasting away when they lose a buddy?

"When a bullet comes at you and...half your buddy's head is blown off, it changes the way you think forever..."
Going to the nearest residential area, busting into homes, and blasting away when you lose a buddy has nothing to do with thinking.

While Mr. Alexander said "unacceptable kills" should not be covered up, he worried about the unfairness of judging those who were in Haditha...."I would not prosecute these young men because they were just doing their jobs."
Killing unarmed, secured civilians who are not posing a threat is part of their job?

I could make bigger donations to DU if I wasn't constantly buying new bullshit meters.

:nuke:
rocknation

[Jigarotta]

24. i think ol Jer needs a few faxes or phone calls.

shouldn't be too hard to find him.

what a piece of shit.

[Critters2]

34. There's a thought...

GI Joe's...googling...there it is! In a little place called Encinitas.

[lebkuchen]

26. Comments of support are always telltale

Lindy England's mother described Abu Ghraib as something on the level of college pranks.

The mother of the Marine who took the pictures of the murders compares her son to Forest Gump. He was probably "Rambo" before the shit hit the fan.

What were the pictures for, anyway? War souvenirs, or props for the torture chambers?

[progressivebydesign]

33. Problem is a lack of a real enemy over there.

The military needs an enemy. The rabid warmongers need an enemy. There really wasn't an enemy over there, once Saddam was disposed and his people taken down. In order to keep people doing the unnatural thing of killing another human, you have to have an enemy. The insurgents provided an enemy, but there are really not that many of them,and they are living amongst a majority of innocent civilians. So.. you have a military that is trained and hyped to kill an enemy.. so they create an enemy. The Iraqi people. I've heard so many people over here talk about about the IRaqi people as though they are who we've been fighting there, as though they are the enemy. They're not. It's the insurgents amongst them that are the problem...but the ordinary citizens get caught in this war game. Does that make a bit of sense? The military HAD to dehumanize the Iraqi civilians, otherwise, the troops would regain their reason and start doubting the mission of the PNAC, .. I mean.. the US.

[HuffleClaw]

36. no way did they simply do this on their own without an 'ok' from higher up

BUT, as expected: "Pentagon investigations into the shooting deaths of Iraqi civilians are focused on about a dozen enlisted Marines and do not target their commanding officers, the lawyer for one of the officers said Tuesday." the highest rank involved thus far is a staff sergeant. what a sham.