Injured Marine Talks About Haditha Killings ("friends lost control")

[Barrett808]

A Marine who was wounded in Haditha, Iraq, last November says he thinks his friends lost control after seeing one of their own killed in a roadside bombing.

The Pentagon is investigating whether Marines killed as many as two dozen Iraqi civilians following the attack. Lance Corporal James Crossan tells KING T-V in Seattle that his fellow Marines were probably blinded by hate.

He says they knew their team leader was dead, and they thought he was dead too.

Crossan suffered a broken back and other injuries when the roadside bomb blew up his Humvee. Lance Corporal Miguel 'T.J.' Terrazas was killed.

An attorney for a Marine officer says about a dozen enlisted Marines are under investigation.

http://www.wyowtv34.com/news/full_story.php?id=40695

[Warpy]

1. That's what spousal batterers say, too

and it's no excuse for them, either.

I hate that these guys were put into that position. I hate that war is a suspension of all rules of civility. I hate that corporations cause our government to send our children out to fight wars of convenience so they can get richer.

I hate this whole thing.

But those guys are RESPONSIBLE for their action. Executing women, children, and old people is WRONG.

[caledesi]

8. This could be flamebait, but it's honest.

Think of it - you go to boot camp and all you hear is 9/11 and Saddam etc, and it's just kill, kill and kill more. Most people ordinarily do not want to kill, but after this indoctrination (which the sole purpose was to make killers), the soldiers then become animals. After a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th tour and you see your best buddy killed, you may lose control. I don't think I could even kill anyone, but who knows? If I went to this "brainwashing," I think I could have lost control too. You see, at this point, these soldiers see their buddies as humans, but the Iraqis are NOT human beings.

It's a sad mess. Just trying to understand.

[Barrett808]

9. Google Robert Jay Lifton and "atrocity producing situations"

That will help greatly on the road to understanding.

[Warpy]

16. You don't "lose control" four hours after the fact

Just like batterers never seem to lose control when there's a cop around.

This was murder. There is no understanding it. These guys killed women, kids, and old people. This is wrong, even in war.

[ronnie624]

31. The thought of putting a bullet

through the skull of an infant makes my blood boil and brings thunder to my brow! Those who perpetrated these crimes must be severely punished!

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. How many other soldiers

lose control after seeing another killed?

I bet its happened more then once.

[nmliberal]

5. I believe you are right

I don't think this is the first time--just the first time that the military was forced to examine what happened since Time magazine already had acquired photos. sad to think other instances may not have been investigated because they just didn't have to.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. There are pictures

Lot's of pictures and they have been available on the internet for a long time. However, the M$M continues to ignore these pictures. Bring a strong stomach if you decide to look.


http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/albums.php?set_albumListPage=2

BTW: Welcome to DU :hi:

[TroglodyteScholar]

18. I don't see anything about Haditha on any of those pages...

Am I missing it?

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Not Haditha

Falugha and other places.

Haditha isn't the only place we've committed atrocities.

[TroglodyteScholar]

22. Thanks for bringing me up to speed...

Falugha and other places.

Haditha isn't the only place we've committed atrocities.

You mean the US has committed (((GULP))) other atrocities at war??? :eyes:

I was really just commenting on the thread's topic: the Haditha massacre. My comment was relevant because there are pictures from Haditha.

BTW, if you really want to seriously bring people's attention to what happened in Fallujah, you'd do well to spell it correctly. And I'm not just trying to be a grammar Nazi -- Falugha is actually an alternate spelling for Falougha, Lebanon.

[bennywhale]

39. Thats true. There are

many reports of indiscriminate firing after a roadside bomb.

There are also reports of British army soldiers refusing to serve with the Americans because of this practice. An SAS guy actually left the army over this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas112.xml

[yellowcanine]

3. "Lost control?" No, throwing a lamp is losing control. Systematically

shooting down innocent men, women and children MORE THAN FOUR HOURS AFTER you lose your buddy in a roadside bomb - that is not losing control, that is premeditated murder.

[xxqqqzme]

6. Exactly - I thought I had read

that there was a time lapse between the IED and the butchery. I noticed last night the neat & tidy animation served up by msnbc made it appear as if it was spontaneous when it was NOT.

[Mz Pip]

4. Talk about an understatement

I get being scared and angry. What I don't get is the killing of the kids. Can't wrap my mind around that at all.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Critters2]

14. Or a blind man in a wheelchair, whose prayers were interrupted

so he could be killed.

Makes me sick

[sofa king]

29. I can't either, but it happens all the time.

I have this idea--it's not even really a theory. One basic human social unit is the tribe, and because they stem directly from tribal defense, armies are organized along similar lines. A tribe doesn't fight individuals, it fights other tribes. Tribes (and Marines) work collectively, and thus they also have an implicit familiarity with the idea of collective responsibility, and collective punishment.

I think that these kids were enraged to a level I hope I never understand, and when they couldn't find the guy who attacked them, they attacked whatever else they could find, which was the "tribe" of that guy's neighborhood.

Terrorism works in exactly the same way, by the way. Most terrorists don't want to be terrorists, they want to be guerillas or freedom fighters. But if they don't have the skills, the numbers, or the firepower to take on the enemy military, they strike at what they know they can hit--civilians.

[bennywhale]

33. Don't agree at all with that. Soldiers are supposed to be

proffesionals. They should be trained for peacekeeping as well as fighting. What they are involved in is no longer a war situation. They should have listened to the British advice with their extensive experience in Bosnia and Northern ireland, but they were too arrogant. The US army is the best in the world attitude, when in fact its one of the worst, most indisciplined and innefective in the world, it just has all the money.

This also stems from the motivation behind the war. I watched something on BBC world, a filmaker based ona warship talking to pilots. He asked them if they felt bad if civilians were being killed in their bombing raids. His answer was that "Innocent civilians were killed in 9/11" he didn't even say yes but... This was a pilot, an intelligent guy. Not only did he believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 and should be punished, while the rest of the world was aghast at such a claim, but he was justifying collective punishment of people of a paricular race or nationanality even though they were innnocent. (which is in some agreemnent with your point about terrorism actually)

Its like if you murdered my child, i would ignore you and murder yours, and justify it because you were connected to your child by blood. Its sick

[LoneDriver]

10. I don't condone but I understand

Who is ultimately responsible here. These soldiers, or the a__holes who put them in this situation. I've seen that all combat situations become us (my unit) against them (the locals). They are all the enemy. Soldiers are trained to kill, not to be social workers so they do what they are trained to do. The sad part is once again some low level will pay while the ones who sent them there act sanctimonious and send more boys to die for their selfish games. And about the kids, again without condoning it, the expression used to be something like "nits make lice".

[Barrett808]

12. Thanks for the insight, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. Marines as "peace keepers". I don't think they are really trained

for that duty are they?

[Lisa]

24. some military units are taught to scorn peacekeeping

Excellent point -- that sort of work requires extensive training, which isn't always compatible with gung-ho militarism. Friends of mine who have served in the Canadian forces were shocked to encounter soldiers from, um, certain other countries during joint training missions, who sneered at peacekeeping operations. And several years ago, Canada deployed a commando unit to Somalia who regarded the situation as a no-holds-barred war ... and were disbanded in disgrace after torturing and killing a local boy.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,932073,00.html


"'This is not the face of a peacekeeper. I'm doin' the Last of the Mohicans kinda thing'

James Meek in Baghdad
Tuesday April 8, 2003
The Guardian


The Cuban was the driver, the least painted-up of the Combined Anti-Armour Team Humvee that carried his name. Every other US marine in the car had coated his face in black and green warpaint in preparation for yesterday's entry into Baghdad. Eric the medic had painted his eyes black with stars like a clown, and blackened his lips so they spread across his chops from side to side."

[marylanddem]

13. These "lost-control" defenses enrage me.

The argument that they lost a buddy so had to go on a murdering rampage absolutely sickens me.
They did what they did and must bear the consequences.

[number6]

15. the Bu$hco Imperial empire hasn't had control

since March 2003

[daleo]

17. Everyone lost control

When the Supreme Court gave the 2000 election to Bush.

[maxsolomon]

19. atrocitites are inevitable

sooner or later, the discipline or the military code of honor is lost, and primal instincts replace it. every war, without fail.

and its not like its not an effective tactic. its what the insurgency is doing to us, upping the ante on horror until we can no longer bear it.

brutalizing conquered populations into submission is the history of the world. it is the essence of war.

[Kagemusha]

21. Uh, the guerillas want the US to brutalize their populations so that

they'll rise up and kick the US out.

That's a bit of a variant.

[maxsolomon]

23. but not unprecedented

if you can't handle atrocities done in your name, don't start wars.

apparently, murka can handle it fine. it just refuses to look at the truth.

KURTZ
" I've seen horrors...horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call
me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that...But
you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is
necessary to those who do not know what horror means.
Horror. Horror has a face...And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and
moral terrorare your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.
They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces...Seems
a thousand centuries ago...We went into a camp to innoculate the children.
We left the camp after we had innoculated the children for Polio, and this old
man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went
back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There
they were in a pile...A pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried...
I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I
wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want
to forget. And then I realized...like I was shot...Like I was shot with a
diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead...And I thought:
My God...the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect,
genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not
monsters...These were men...trained cadres...these men who fought with
their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with
love...but they had the strength...the strength...to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You
have to have men who are moral...and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling...without passion...
without judgement...without judgement. Because it's judgement that
defeats us. "

[Blue_Tires]

25. best war movie EVAR!!!!

was thinking about it today

[Kagemusha]

26. I agree, don't start wars unless you're prepared for the cost.

Bush thinks it's worth it; I think poor execution has made a hard situation worse.

[President Kerry]

27. it's not the execution that's the problem here

(though it's surely A problem); it's the intent. If the execution had been nice and dandy nobody would've given a rat's ass about any casualties, and the majority here would've been happy and proud. That's the sickening part.

[bennywhale]

38. The IRA did a similar but less extreme version of what that poster

suggests. They would deliberately hide weapons, themselves etc in the houses of the innocent, and spread deliberate false intelligence also to the British army about their where abouts after, for example killing a British Soldier. The British army would then be kicking down the doors of innocent people and arresting them and wrecking their houses looking for weapons etc. This would drive the innocent and uninvolved to become active supporters of the IRA.

"Look what these bastards do to you..we'll protect you" kind of thing.

[bennywhale]

34. Wrong. atrocities are indicitive

of war but you are suggesting that thats just the way it is. Particular armies are particularly prone to committing atrocities due to their culture and the culture of their country. America is one such army, as were the Nazis as were the Soviets, as were the Japanese. The culture is one of superiority where by the enemy (civilian or soldier) is viewed as Untermenschen, lower forms of life.

There will be many in the US army who will be thinking "i want to kill me some ragheads". it makes people who maybe don't feel worth much in their own country to feel superior in some foreign land in a culture they don't want to understand and feel is inferior.

This attitude leads to massacres and atrocities. The Iraqis in the eyes of the American army are unhuman. Contrast this with the British army, who's upper echolons of the army, upper class, and indeed mandarins of government have a historical link, respect for and admiration of Arabian culture (bizarre as Iraq was once in the British empire yes, but still true.) This mutual respect has resulted in no atrocities by the British, and many many suspected ones by the Americans.

Its the deluded culture of American uniqueness and superiority in the army and much of American society.

[AlanAdam]

43. Agreed

[DELUSIONAL]

28. I guess the Iraqis also lose control when they see family

members murdered by US troops.

We all agree that US troops should never BE IN Iraq in the first place.

Bush is to blame -- because this is HIS war.

If individuals can go berserk due to witnessing the stupidly of young people dying violently -- then why can't the Iraqis also have the same lose of "control" and want to kill anyone who resembles the aliens who killed family or friends.

Bottom line -- the US should never be there -- and all violence and deaths are the fault of one person -- that's the guy who was willing to steal the White house -- no matter what it took. AND he had plans to be the "war president" long before he stole the white house.

BUT what the Marines did was wrong -- systematic murder and then covering up of the murders is WRONG.

They shouldn't have been put in a position to see the death of friends -- but they were and they acted badly -- OR they responded to their military training and couldn't see the "enemy" as human -- even the women and children became non-human and thus the taboo of murder was over ridden by training.

[vogonjiltz]

30. This is a sign of the state of bad morale in our military.

This is similar to what we saw in Viet-Nam. This won't be last massacre. Occupying a hostile civilian population is not something we trained for and is abso;utly toxic to good order in a military organization.

[bennywhale]

37. No, this is a sign of bad morals

Don't excuse this shit with bad moral. Aargh ther moral is low, they shot a child in the face, bless those poor soldiers.

This is a case of the vacuum of morality in the American army that sees the Iraqis as sub-human and their culture as inferior, coupled with murderers in the army.

[wellst0nev0ter]

32. I'm Not Really Blaming The Soldiers Here

for God's sake, they've done THREE TOURS of Eye-Rack. How many of you could do three baptisms of fire before you snap.

Sure I support any punishment that's coming their way, but I reserve the blame for those who have punished them with three tours and those that covered up the atrocities.

[bennywhale]

36. Thats a joke right?

You are not blaming soldiers who have shot little children in the head 'execution style'. Either you are being sarcastic or you have lost your moral compass.

If this is all true, these men are murderers and war criminals.

the people who are to blame stretch from top to bottom. At the nuremburg trials the defence of 'only following orders' was not allowed to stand, and thi shas been the case subsequently. But these men were not only following orders, they went on a murderous rampage.

The deluded culture of the US army and the culture of much of American society of superiority is a cause of this, as is the corruption of the White House regime, but that does not excuse murder of innocent women and children.

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. It's A Sad Inevitability of Three Tours of Duty In That Hell Hole

Of course the soldiers should be punished, but I still lay most of the blame into those who callously allowed these soldiers to transform into merciless killing machines, and we all know who those are.

[bennywhale]

42. "It's A Sad Inevitability of Three Tours of Duty In That Hell Hole"

There have been no such massacres by British, Australian or Polish troops in Iraq. And there have been far far worse 'hellholes' in theatres of war before involving democratic countries where this sort of massacre did not happen.

These soldiers are murderers and war criminals if thi sis true, no better than Radko Mladic and his death squads in Bosnia

[truthisfreedom]

35. commander in chief. the bush stops here.

and if it doesn't, he's awol.

[Nihil]

40. To be honest, it wouldn't be the first time ...

> he's awol

[RobinA]

44. For Those Interested

in understanding how this kind of situation happens, I recommend "Achilles in Vietnam," an excellent book on war trauma and the mindset that gives raise to atrocities. I was thinking of mailing my copy to W after I was done with it, but I figured he wouldn't be able to convince Cheney to read it to him. Not that he would even try. Why cloud ones vision with learning how things actually work?