Two U.S. soldiers killed in Mosul (attackers slit victims’ throats)

[SodoffBush]

good god

http://msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CB10

MOSUL, Iraq, Nov. 23 — Attackers slit the throats of two U.S. soldiers while their vehicle was stopped in traffic on Sunday in the center of the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, witnesses said.

A SPOKESMAN for the U.S. 101st Airborne Division, based in Mosul, confirmed two soldiers had been killed in central Mosul but had no further details.

[mebadgett]

1. Cost of the War in Iraq

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower
April 16, 1953

"It would almost appear that the very domain of human activity most crucial to the fate of nations is inescapably in the hands of wholly irresponsible political rulers."

Albert Einstein

The human cost of Iraqi occupation: http://www.antiwar.com/ewens/casualties.html

The $$$ cost of Iraqi occupation : http://costofwar.com/

Why War?: http://www.cis.vt.edu/modernworld/d/einstein.html

[SodoffBush]

4. thank you for this post

[saigon68]

9. This is out of the ordinary

Civilian clothes are not worn in a combat zone.

Soldiers don't drive SUV's.

Stay tuned for the spin. I can think of 10 reasons to explain this, I'll comment later.

[leftchick]

10. well I am certainly intrigued...

please fill us in Saigon. This shit is too damn crazy and impossibly sad....

<snip>

The U.S. command in Baghdad said it had no information on the incident.
However, the bodies of the two male soldiers could be seen lying in the street next to their vehicle in the city's Ras al-Jadda district with their throats cut.

:cry:

[saigon68]

13. CID/OSI

Special troops, who are like the armed services FBI/CIA

They wear civilian clothes. They solve military crime and sometimes do counterterrorism. They were targeted no doubt.

There are a lot of "civilian" contractors, agriculture people, oil services specialists there. Haven't heard any of them having their throats slit !!!
Most likely an Army CID operation gone bad, any comments from the other VETS???

Just a guess for now, can't wait to hear the "Official" Explanation:

[leftchick]

14. thanks Saigon...

That makes more sense. It certainly seems Iraqi Resistance intelligence is outpacing the Military intelligence.

[saigon68]

15. There was a movie OFF LIMITS

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301140850/002-6465537-5661650?v=glance

Off Limits
Two pros from the Criminal Investigation Detachment (CID) track down the killer of Vietnamese prostitutes in 1968 Saigon. Writers: Christopher Crowe and Jack Thibeau. Stars: Willem Dafoe, Gregory Hines, and Amanda Pays.

[leftchick]

16. Thanks yet again Saigon...

You are have a wealth of information to share. The bonus for me is, I Love Willem Defoe! :)

[NNN0LHI]

18. But how in the hell could someone slit the throats of 2 armed soldiers?

This baffles the hell out of me. I just can't envision it. I need a cup of coffee.

Don

[saigon68]

21. Me too Don

I have my coffee and the evidence points to the Murderers knowing the victims!!

[NNN0LHI]

22. Yes. They thought they were with friendlies. That was my guess too

Thank you for saying it.

Don

[Vitruvius]

66. Rudyard Kipling:

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East."

[saigon68]

28. Now Hearing they were shot then bodies mutilated

I guess the locals were dancing around holding up bloody money and shirts of victims

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&e=2&u=/nm/iraq_mosul_dc

Witnesses said attackers slit the throats of the men as their vehicle, a white four-wheel-drive civilian car, was stopped in traffic in the center of the city.


They said locals looted the dead bodies, taking objects from the men's pockets. One man was seen brandishing blood-stained Iraqi dinars he said he taken from the soldiers. The attack came shortly after a soldier from the 4th Infantry Division was killed in a roadside blast in Baquba, about 40 miles north of Baghdad.

[underpants]

30. Holy s**t!

So following the precedent set in Somalia W will be blamed for something that happened half a world away, right?

[saigon68]

31. Doesn't explain civilian clothes though

I guess we'll have to wait for that

[mobuto]

71. They weren't wearing civilian clothes

photos of the bodies clearly show they were wearing camo uniforms.

I'm not going to post them, but they're available on the wires.

[nostamj]

38. CNN just reported that they were shot first,

then had their throats slit
then were stripped naked

WTF has those monsters set in motion?

[VolcanoJen]

39. see post #37 below

nostamj, I just watched that horrific report on CNN. I did my best to transcribe what the reporter said, in post #37 below.

I am just shaking... :-(

[nostamj]

44. escalating and escalating

and Rove sits in the WH looking at what happened in Georgia and what happened in Iraq and figures a spin to make it all WORK

sick bastards.

[imax2268]

98. I just heard on the local news

that they were shot...dragged out of their vehicle and they were beaten with concrete blocks...?

:wtf:...what's the real story here...?

[Blue_Roses]

17. Oh my gosh

I never thought of that until you mentioned this. I have a friend who is an OSI in the Air Force. They are stationed in Japan now, but work counterintelligence.
geezeee...this is getting to damn close. We should have NEVER gone to war with Iraq.

[janx]

43. If this is true, then the Iraquis have some real intelligence

operation going on, no?

[jukes]

46. I agree 100%

Afternoon, Saigon. Must have gotten burned in a covert op, or were "bagmen." picking up the daily.

[saigon68]

59. Could be Jukes hard to say with managed news

The one thing about wars before desert storm at least there was a press that reported a few facts. Nothing like that now

[mobuto]

69. These men were wearing uniforms

as can be seen clearly in photographs of the bodies. You can find them if you want, but I'm not going to post them.

[markses]

73. Ah, the issue of wearing uniforms

One of your personal favorites, from the early days of this catastrophe, eh, mobuto?

I always find your arrivals curious. You seem to only show up when things are going particularly badly, if only to assure everyone that hey, it's not that bad after all. Strange thing, that.

[IndianaGreen]

85. So what if they were wearing uniforms?

The last time I checked the US was not following the Geneva Accords on the treatment of POWs (Guantanamo). In addition to that, the Iraqis are an occupied country and they have an absolute God-given right to do as they please with the occupiers, including taking no prisoners alive.

Haven't you seen the movie "Red Dawn"?

[leetrisck]

2. One report said soldiers were

in civilian clothes - very strange and very terrible.

[truth2power]

33. Could someone give me the link

that says they were in civilian clothes? I clicked thru all those links but only found that they were driving a civilian vehicle.

A small matter, but I'm just wondering why I can't find it. Thanks.

[greyl]

3. Sorrow

sorrow, and all of my sorrow.

but to msnbc it's money/ratings.

I seem to find more sorrow, and my mind has the full time job of repressing sorrow.

[DeepModem Mom]

8. "In a world where donkeys are made to carry missiles,"

my daughter said tearfully to me yesterday -- after a day of sad family news, that brought back more sad memories. Maybe it's November, JFK -- oddly, maybe even some hopeful signs lately make the overall desperation seem more stark. Where I live, a pouring rain from a dark, gray sky does not stop.

Others here at D.U. have had similar feelings over this weekend. Your sorrow is shared. May hope come --

[greyl]

23. The hope is always present

and will always be.

:)

[hadrons]

5. more success according to Dumbya ...

[0007]

6. That's exactly what the Turks did in Korea...

...during the Korea war. They would slither out at night with knife in hand and into the enemies tent, if two were found sleeping the Truk would cut one throat and leave the other to live. Perhaps with the idea the one that lived would be worthless for any more war.

[Upfront]

79. They Did The Same

in WW11. They had a compound with tall poles around it. They would go out at night with knives only. The next morning there would be heads on top of these poles. No one, and I mean no one, went anywhere near them. Some of the best gorilla fighters that ever lived. I was not there but got the story from a Marine who was.

[bluestateguy]

7. November will be the bloodiest month of the whole war

Maybe * should do some kind of an anti-ceremony at a graveyard proclaiming the resumption of major combat operations.

[MaineDem]

11. Oh man, how sad...and odd

I agree that there's more to this. Either the reports are incorrect or there's a backstory to this. Civilian clothes??

But, in any case, two more added to the roll. ThHe blood is all on your hands, GWB! Disgusting!

I grieve for their families.

[mebadgett]

12. NELSON MANDELA on Iraq War

NELSON MANDELA on Iraq War
- 10/07/03

It's a tragedy what is happening, what Bush is doing. All Bush wants is Iraqi oil. There is no doubt that the U.S. is behaving badly. Why are they not seeking to confiscate weapons of mass destruction from their ally Israel? This is just an excuse to get Iraq’s oil.

We have not had world wars in 57 years, and it is because of the United Nations. We should condemn both Blair and Bush and let them know in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is wrong. Other international countries like France and Russia must influence the United Nations to condemn what he is doing.

Bush is now undermining the United Nations. He is acting outside it, not withstanding the fact that the United Nations was the idea of President Roosevelt and Winston Churchill. Both Bush, as well as Tony Blair, are undermining an idea which was sponsored by their predecessors. They do not care. Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white.

What is the lesson of them acting outside the United Nations? Are they saying any country which believes that they will not be able to get the support of the countries with a veto are entitled to go outside the United Nations and to ignore it? Or are they saying we, the United States, are the only superpower in the world now, we can act as we like? Are they saying this is a lesson we should follow or are they saying 'we are special, what we do should not be done by anybody ?'

If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings. Fifty-seven years ago, when Japan was retreating on all fronts, they decided to drop the atom bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki; killed a lot of innocent people, who are still suffering the effects of those bombs.

Those bombs were not aimed against the Japanese, they were aimed against the Soviet Union to say, 'look, this is the power that we have. If you dare oppose what we do, this is what is going to happen to you'. Because they are so arrogant, they decided to kill innocent people in Japan, who are still suffering from that.

Who are they, now, to pretend that they are the policemen of the world? To want to decide for the people in Iraq what they should do with their government and with their leadership?

If this is done by the United Nations, if the United Nations says that 'Saddam Hussein is not carrying out the resolutions of the United Nations, therefore we the United Nations are going to take action,' I will support that without reservation.

What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust. I am happy that the people of the world - especially those of the United States of America - are standing up and opposing their own president.

I hope that that opposition will one day make him understand that he has made the greatest mistake of his life in trying to bring about carnage and to police the world, without any authority of the international body. It is something we have to condemn without reservation.

I only hope that the people of the United States will make Bush aware that he has made a big mistake to want to surpass the global body, the United Nations, whose ideals are to bring peace and eradicate wars.

The people of the U.S. should use their democracy to get rid of him. It is best for the U.S. to use the ballot box and demonstrations to draw attention to the issue.

And the women at this forum are there to look into these things, to be bold with their leadership and to condemn what is wrong.

And finally, we have of course the question of globalisation in this country. As
She has put it very well, because what happens today in northern Europe has got an effect on our region the same day. Globalisation is already there, whether we like it or not.

And of course globalisation at the present moment favours the rich and the mighty. We have to fight that. It must favour all human beings, whether in Europe or in Africa. And I'm sure this is the task of this forum to make sure that such irregularities are rectified.

Thank you very much.

Source: http://www.igc.org/home/peacenet/index.html

[DemVet]

26. Sorry Winnie, I don't agree...

...with you basically saying the US is responsible for a lot of atrocities in the world.

[Sideways]

40. Sod Off Dude Winnie Didn't Say This Nelson Did

The US is The NUMBER 1 terrorist in the world. Read a real history book lately? I think not. SOD OFF FRAUD. Nelson is RIGHT.

[BurntIceCubeTray]

70. The US is The NUMBER 1 terrorist in the world

Could you enumerate the US acts that rank them #1 in your mind?

[truth2power]

83. How about this?

Iran, 1953. CIA overthrew elected Prime Minister Mossadegh. Installed the pro-US Shah.

Guatemala, 1954. CIA instrumental in overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz, who had taken over about 400,000 acres of United Fruit Company land as part of a land reform program. United Fruit was offered compensation, which they rejected. Since the overthrow of Arbenz, Guatemala has had a series of military dictatorships with ongoing political repression. You might want to read “Bitter Fruit”. Can’t remember the author.

Belgian Congo, 1960. Democratically elected Patrice Lumumba, deposed with CIA help. Replaced by Joseph Mobutu, a dictator. Lumumba tried to escape but was caught with the help of the CIA and murdered. These events investigated by the U.S. Church Committee in 1975, where the facts came out. You might also want to read Barbara Kingsolver’s book, “The Poisonwood Bible”, for some insight into this period in the history of Congo. Although fiction, Kingsolver incorporates many facts into her narrative.

Cuba, 1961. Bay of Pigs, etc. CIA assisted attempt to overthrow Castro.

Indonesia, 1958-65. Estimates of perhaps 500,000 to 1 million people killed during the military coup in which General Suharto overthrew the govt. of President Sukarno. U.S. policy was to overthrow the Sukarno government. Clandestine aid provided by CIA.

Greece, 1967. “In 1964, liberal George Papandreou was elected prime minister of Greece; in July 1965, he was maneuvered out of office by a coalition of rightists assisted by the CIA. Two years later, the Right consolidated its power in a military coup. Of the five officerstaking power, four were intimately connected with the U.S. military or CIA. The leader George Papadopoulous, worked with the Nazis in World War II, was trained in the United States, and had been on the CIA payroll for fifteen years. Since 1947, the Greek army and the U.S. military aid group in Athens had worked as part of the same team. Following the 1967 coup, the Papadopoulous dictatorship instituted widespread repression; Amnesty International documented not less than two thousand people tortured.” (Source: Rollback Right-Wing Power in U.S. foreign Policy. Thos. Bodenheimer & Robt. Gould)p. 31.

Chile, 1970-73. 1970 – Salvadore Allende democratically elected. Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon involved in planning a coup. Nixon ordered CIA operatives to provide money and weapons to RW Chilean military officers to assassinate Allende. This plan failed but CIA covert tactics continued. Eventually they were successful and Augusto Pinochet was installed.

I took all of the above information out of "Rollback", but there are many other sources for this.

This is only a partial list. Read, “Rollback” above, for more details. I used to have a listing of all the CIA machinations over the years to destabilize democratically elected govts. all over the world. Printed it off the web. Can’t find it at the moment.

You might also think about reading "Blowback: The costs and Consequences of American Empire."

edit: thought I'd list some other places we meddled - China, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Southeast Asia, Jamaica.

[Dr Fate]

47. Dont blame the US- blame conservative policies...

I never "blame America 1st"- I always point the finger at conservative policies...

[0007]

27. NELSON MANDELA is "A" Okay and right on!

Welcome to DU.

[dArKeR]

19. Bush/Rum tell us the hatred doesn't run deep and just a few

'trouble makers' attacking Americans!

This is just unbelievable. 1 or 2 Iraqis without guns just knives going after soldiers who are equipped with the most technologically advanced gear the world has ever known. And they are going after us with knives.

Our leaders (Repuke and Dem) should be jailed immediately. They have done nothing but tell lies about the entire situation in Iraq. And they're using the lives of our children to gain personal profit.

Witnesses say attackers slit victims’ throats
http://msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CB10



In the late 80s, Pakistan's then head of state, Benazir Bhutto, told the first President George Bush, you are creating a Frankenstein. But the warnings never quite filtered down to the cops and G-men on the streets of New York.
http://msnbc.com/news/632825.asp

[54anickel]

84. RE: "Our leaders should be jailed immediately"

IF those involved in the lies are ever brought to justice, I would certainly hope that they would use the FULL extent of the law, confiscate ALL property and assets (the threat we have hovering over all of us according to some other posts). The proceeds should be used in the rebuilding of Iraq.

That said, the US must complete what it started in Afghanistan as well. It has been 2 years and we deserted those people to go after Saddam for the oil.

[izzie]

20. I have a bad feeling about this story. Something is wrong with it.

It is a story that seems to come right out of George Bush's White House and I do not know just why I think this.:think: :think: :think: It maybe it turned up just as he needed it.

[KoKo]

35. Agree, Izzie, sounds odd to me, also.

but then I'm always questioning of any reports these days.

[dArKeR]

24. Did anyone see the David Frost interview on CNN? Nothing but praise for

Bush. 1000%. He said Bush speaks so well. High level language. No hesitation. Clear, precise language. Intelligent.

Bush is so moral that protests don't affect him.

Frost said the protest in England was minor. Only a 100,000. And of the 25 people interviewed only 2 were British. (Guess Frost forget about the 1.5-2 million protests before the war.)

(Now I realize why Nixon chose him. He's just a Power Elite White Man's Whore. I'm sure Frost is deep cover Shadow Government agent. I just couldn't believe the things I hear him say.

"Blair
70% for Blair 30% against war.
War starts 70% for Blair 30% against.
Now 70% against Blair 30% for but just wait until he gets it right."


These Whores are just going to keep lying/spinning and they don't care how many of our children die!

[underpants]

29. "High level language. No hesitation."??? He doesn't say anything

It is easy to not hesitate (since when is that such an admirable trait?) when he speak in simple sentences and repeat the same catchphrases over and over and over.

Geez

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

55. and David wasn't on drugs?

Ecstasy, perhaps?

[Myra]

25. Oh christ

I just can't believe how hideously
this regime has misused and betrayed its soldiers.

I wish I was religious and could comfort myself
with visions of the BFEE frying in hell.

[DulceDecorum]

32. Unlawful combatants

Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant

What goes around.....

[jenk]

34. this is just sickening, being killed in such fashion

why are our soldiers subject to this?

how do they just walk up and slit there throats?

[alcuno]

36. Did anyone hear the press conference this morning?

The reporter asked the briefer if he could just verify if the soldiers had been stabbed or shot. The guy responded that he didn't want to get ghoulish about it. Ghoulish? Ghoulish? What, now we don't even report how they were killed?

[VolcanoJen]

37. CNN now confirms the soldiers were shot first (new info - transcription)

I'll do my best to transcribe the excellent report by a very shaken Jane Arraf, which just aired on "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

Jane Arraf: "Wolf, an increasingly grisly, gruesome picture is emerging from today's report that two American soldiers have been killed. We were down at the scene, which is just a little, small street off the main business center of Mosul, a city in the north. It appears, indeed, as the military said, they had been shot, but after that, it took an even more horrifying turn. According to two eyewitnesses, they said that after the two soldiers, who were travelling in a convoy, were shot, their vehicle was disabled, and attackers came and cut their throats. After that, a mob started to loot the car, and looted their bodies, as well.

Now, this is taking an increasingly gruesome turn. This had been a city where there were few attacks. Now, in this region, there are 5 to 7 attacks per day."

transcription and emphasis by VolcanoJen

The soldiers were travelling in a convoy? What happened to the other members of their unit? Where did they go? There was also no mention on the CNN report that the soldiers were dresssed as civilians...

Also, according to our own local news here in Cincinnati, Ohio, the two soldiers killed were members of the 101st Airborne, based in Fort Campbell, Kentucky. :-(

Horrible... more horrific things happen ever day. This is just unspeakable.

[calimary]

41. I hope the "Bring 'Em On" Boys are happy this morning.

Dear God, WHEN will we be delivered from this plague - and these plague carriers?

[Rose Siding]

42. Thanks VolcanoJen

Man, these "reporters" are infuriating! They answer half of a question and leave you with eight more! How could she NOT have asked about the rest of the convoy?

[VolcanoJen]

48. I find it impossible to believe they were in a convoy.

Had the soldiers been travelling as members of a convoy, and had they engaged enemy fire, that entire unit would have have found themselves engaged in combat. I find it impossible to believe that their unit would have fled, allowing the disabling of the vehicle, and the looting and pummeling of their bodies.

:-(

I think we'll have to wait and see how this pans out. Although the witnesses insist to the CNN reporter that the soldiers were part of a convoy, the military reports that they were driving between U.S. garrisons (military posts).

The original article, cited in the thread that started this post, has been significantly updated:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20031123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

The 101st Airborne Division said its soldiers in Mosul were shot while driving between U.S. garrisons. Several witnesses also said the soldiers were shot during the attack in the Ras al-Jadda district, though earlier reports by witnesses said assailants slit the soldiers' throats.

Bahaa Jassim, a teenager, said the soldiers' vehicle crashed into a wall after the shooting. Several dozen passers-by then descended on the wreckage, looting the car of weapons and the soldiers' backpacks.

After the soldiers' bodies fell into the street, the crowd pummeled them with concrete blocks, Jassim said.

A U.S. patrol then arrived and cordoned off the area, he said.

[45th Med]

53. They were a single vehicle....

moving between US garrisons.....about the only place they are safe nowadays. one day someone is going to do a garrison or barracks like Beirut and get hundreds of our guys while sleeping.

looks like the iraqi's have been taking lessons from the Somali's.

[VolcanoJen]

54. The reports are contradictory, however.

The eyewitnesses told CNN that the vehicle was part of a convoy. The official military report insists that the vehicle was travelling between garrisons.

:shrug:

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

56. Bush promised flowers, not concrete blocks

Maybe he was promising crysanthamums.

[janx]

49. Somebody posted stats of deaths so far: total, this month, and

since the "end" of combat operations. But I can't find them. Does anyone know where they are?

[markses]

50. Best source

http://www.lunaville.com/warcasualties/summary.aspx

[janx]

52. Thanks so much. I did a search but didn't know which site

was the most reliable.

[markses]

51. Worst part is, you ain't seen the half of it

Wait til they really get organized and start capturing some of those poor guys. That's when the bad shit really starts.

[janx]

45. This has now reached the point at which it is very hard for

me and others to contain ourselves regarding this war.

We saw this coming.

Now all we can do is stand by helplessly when we hear about the inevitable atrocities.

It's just so damned sickening!

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

57. Horrific fact is, it will get worse thanks to Operation Arm and Hammer

and Bush's belief that the war is better than peace.

[jpgray]

58. Smart--mutilation will get news, deaths won't

Taking an obviously detached view of things, this is exactly the best move for the Iraqis. For some reason, Americans at large don't care about an anonymous "ordinary" death. But mutilation will serve the sensationalist bent of our news journalism, and as a result will make more people pay attention. We don't care about the ordinary deaths, only the unique and particularly painful ones.

:(

It goes without saying that this terrible toll shouldn't fall off of Bush's teflon. He should be imprisoned.

[janx]

60. Now I'm confused. Are these the same soldiers whose bodies

were pummeled with concrete blocks?

[VolcanoJen]

61. Yes, janx. The AP has updated the above article...

Here's a link the updated AP article, same link as in the post that started this thread. There is no mention in the updated article of throats being cut, as has been reported elsewhere:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20031123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Excerpt:

Witnesses to the Mosul attack said gunmen shot two soldiers driving through the city center, sending their vehicle crashing into a wall. The 101st Airborne Division said the soldiers were driving to another garrison.

About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers' bodies out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.

"They lifted a block and hit them with it on the face," Younis Mahmoud, 19, said.

Another teenager, Bahaa Jassim, said some looted the vehicle of weapons, CDs and a backpack.

"They remained there for over an hour without the Americans knowing anything about it," he said. "I ... went and told other troops."

[janx]

63. Thanks for the clarification.

I thought I was losing my mind!

[leftchick]

65. CNN just reported cut throats...

at 4:30 ET, also said they were dragged from the vehicle and their weapons and personal affects taken......perhaps they have not recieved the revised version yet?

[VolcanoJen]

67. They reported it in their initial, live report on "Late Edition" earlier..

.. too.

Perhaps the AP decided to leave that aspect of the story out of their latest update? I have no idea why.

[alcuno]

62. Yes. And for some reason I think there was a third who did not die.

They were shot. The vehicle ran into a wall. They were pulled out and hit with concrete and it appears their throats were slit. Welcome to Mosul.

[janx]

64. Dear God. I hope this isn't the beginning of a trend,

but I am not so young or naive to believe that this won't continue.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

72. Savages?

Really?

[mobuto]

74. Damn straight.

Beating corpses with cement blocks? Do you have a better word?

Now, I have to admit that these were military targets, and as such don't carry the same moral weight as when the bastards kill women and children, as they did in yesterday's attacks in Baquba and Khan Bani Saad.

[markses]

77. Much more civilized to clean them up and put em on TV

For whole the world to see, as Joyce might say.

No doubt we'd all like to see the end of the murder of innocents - men, women, and children alike. It remains striking, however, the way some can distribute their outrage so deliberately - bastards here and poor victims of circumstance there, O my shining stars and streamers.

No doubt you picked up this bvenerable habit in yourr many years as an apologist for the Israeli state apparatus? It will certainly serve you well in any hypocritical ventures you may enter into. Those who can justify anything, as long as their sides doing it - ah, one must give a nod of recognition for such fortitude, as it seems to take a good deal of effort to block out the cognitive (not to mention ethical) dissonance.

The first step, of course, can be taken straight from the Book of Rumsfeld, Book 1, Chapter 4. Talk tough, young man. Say things like "Damn straight" (and if you're really hot to trot for your bloody little ventures, add an explanation mark, to wit:!), just to let "the bastards" know that there's no two ways about it.

[mobuto]

87. Yes

For whole the world to see, as Joyce might say.


You don't understand. It is a terrible thing to kill a man. Sometimes we feel its necessary so we do it. But when you maim a corpse, you're going further - you're indicating to the world that you're enjoying what you're doing. It may be too fine a line for your tastes, but its significant to me.

No doubt you picked up this bvenerable habit in yourr many years as an apologist for the Israeli state apparatus?

When the Israeli state apparatus deliberatly targets noncombatants, you'll have a point.

Those who can justify anything, as long as their sides doing it - ah, one must give a nod of recognition for such fortitude, as it seems to take a good deal of effort to block out the cognitive (not to mention ethical) dissonance.

I agree entirely. It is good then, that I don't adhere to such short-sighted partisanship.

Say things like "Damn straight" (and if you're really hot to trot for your bloody little ventures, add an explanation mark, to wit:!), just to let "the bastards" know that there's no two ways about it.

I'm sorry if my language seems crude. I'm sorry if I don't use your ten dollar words; I just call it like I see it. And as for quoting from the Book of Rumsfeld, I was not aware that he was the one who invented direct speech. Apologies.

[markses]

94. Uh huh

You don't understand. It is a terrible thing to kill a man. Sometimes we feel its necessary so we do it. But when you maim a corpse, you're going further - you're indicating to the world that you're enjoying what you're doing. It may be too fine a line for your tastes, but its significant to me.
--------------

I understand perfectly well. Your bizarre interpretation about "corpse-maiming" is fascinating, if wrong - or at least severely restrictive. Oh, I forgot; you now take on the mantle of a lover of direct speech: it's bullshit, dizzawg. There are a million reasons and a million significations for mutilating corpses - enjoyment is one among many, and probably not even the most common (counting coup, for example, has absolutely nothing to do with "enjoyment" of killing or of mutilation, nor do the myriad (oops, many - my bad, Cap'n) ways Westerners have done the same). As far as this particular case, it may be enjoyment, it may not. In either case, even taking your interpretation as true, to deny that the airing of the atrocious Hussein brothers was enjoyed - publically or secretly - by a vast majority of supposedly non-savage Westerners is laughable. hell, to claim that the sheer power of the US killing machine in action is not a public or secret cause for joy among Americans is similarly silly. So enough with your self- righteous "sometimes its necessary" as if you can pretend to even a modicum of sobriety and decorum on such matters. Please. Your joy at this whole enterprise is far from secret here.

As for your Israeli nonsenses - and the typical parsing of "deliberateness" - I'll decline to turn this into an I-P issue, but will note that if certain consequences necessarily follow from an action (in this case, the deaths of civilians through either social, economic, or military policy), then undertaking those actions means deliberately producing those consequences. One could even extend the argument (as most law does in cases of drunk driving deaths) to probable consequences. Furthermore, I'm not convinced that it is not or has not been deliberate policy to murder Palestinian civilians. So, on all counts, I maintain my charge of hypocrisy on your part.

As for straight speaking, anyone can do it. The fact that you do it HERE doesn't bother me. I find it comical, actually. Like establishing your moral bona fides requires a bit of masculine huffiness. More than comical. Clownish.

[mobuto]

99. Context as usual, is everything

Oh, I forgot; you now take on the mantle of a lover of direct speech: it's bullshit, dizzawg

Uh huh. You compared me to the Secretary of Defense for using simple speech, and now you're trying to turn this around? But then I'm not the one who remembers things that other people do not remember.

Now on to your, uh, substantive points.

Your point about counting coup is plum weird. Just for starters, these are Iraqis, not nineteenth century plains Indian horsemen, so unless you've done resurrected Crazy Horse and moved him to Iraqi Kurdistan, your parallel is about as bizarre as anything can possibly be. But even then, it don't work, because you can't count coup by maiming a dead enemy or anything even remotely like that. You counted coup by whacking an enemy up side the head, and kudos were given if you could do it to the same guy multiple times without killing him.

Scalping, which you probably meant to say but--lost exploring the Poetick lands of Great Metaphor-- you just didn't, was different and didn't mean as much.

No, I don't think these Iraqi teenagers were counting coup as a group Social Studies project for their ninth grade home room unit on Native Americans. No, I think they were probably seeking pleasure from maiming the corpses of dead American soldiers.

Now maybe in your playbook you have a few other of your million (or is it now, 999,999?) explanations for what these krazy kids could have been up to, so maybe you could share them with us. But I doubt you will.

Now as to your response that the evil West took pleasure from actually seeing Saddam's boys dead, no I don't think that's the case either. And if anybody did, well there are some twisted fucks out there. No, come to think of it, I really didn't take any pleasure sitting in a diner somewhere watching CNN and looking up from my soup to see two bloated corpses held up on the screen. I think the Pentagon, in its infinite wisdom, made its reasoning pretty clear - because otherwise people would refuse to believe that the two dicks were dead, but I can't say I enjoyed what they did.

Don't believe me? Want me to find loonies on DU claiming that Muhammed Atef is still alive? I'm guessing some Public Affairs Lietenant Colonel is still kicking himself for not posting a corpse photo on the internet.

Your joy at this whole enterprise is far from secret here.


Joy? Far from secret? You are a strange person. You done psychoanalyzing me without my knowledge or consent yet? What in tarnation would I be joyful for?

I'll decline to turn this into an I-P issue,

Don't blame me, Mack, you did bring it up.

One could even extend the argument (as most law does in cases of drunk driving deaths) to probable consequences.

Extend? I thought that was the premise from which you were beginning. And that's exactly the point where I avoid the very short-sighted partisanship of which you accuse me. Because I don't support attacks that kill civilians, nor do I support attacks that have a significant liklihood of doing so. It really depends on how you define probable consequences. In all wars, there is a significant probability that civilians will die. In every campaign in all of history, whether offensive or defensive, I think you'll find that at least one civilian somewhere died. So will you therefore outlaw defensive war and kindly ask the Russians to surrender retroactive to 1941? But you can't do that. Instead you've got to judge each individual engagement seperately and in the context of the situation, something you're apparently unwilling to do.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that it is not or has not been deliberate policy to murder Palestinian civilians.

I am not convinced that anybody cares enough to have expended the energy to convince you, of all people, of the obvious. All I will say on this subject, is that if the Israeli army were resolved to kill Palestinian civilians, they're doing a pretty piss-poor job.

So, on all counts, I maintain my charge of hypocrisy on your part.

Before you can maintain a charge, you must first be coherent.

I find it comical, actually. Like establishing your moral bona fides requires a bit of masculine huffiness. More than comical. Clownish.

More than comical? I just call it like it is.

[markses]

104. Alrighty

Since you introduced no qualifiers, this struck me as a universal claim:

"But when you maim a corpse, you're going further - you're indicating to the world that you're enjoying what you're doing."

Or did you mean to restrict that claim to the given context? If so, you did a poor job grammatically, with the "you" and all. So, given the universal claim, I presented specific cases that would dispute it. But you are correct to say that I confused counting coup with scalping (although whether this happened in the land of the great metaphor is another matter altogether). Thanks for that. In any case, the point was merely that "enjoyment" is not the sole way of viewing what happened. Since it is your sole means of distinguishing the solemn venture of necessary killing from the savagery of of the day, I thought I'd call it into question. So your business about Social Studies and the difference between 19th century Native Americans - while entertaining - is irrelevant. You made the universal claim about mutilation, not me.

Even, however, if it we were to accept "enjoyment," the category would get you in trouble. You say only sick twists - and certainly not yourself - would enjoy the spectacle of the Hussein assholes bodies. I disagree, and I think the feverish manic breathing of the spectacle throughout the US media supports me. As for taking the Pentagon's word at face value, that's what got you into this mess - intent as you were to take the initial claim about WMD and instability. It also discounts the joyful toughness emanating from those quarters over the spectacle. Point being, even if we take enjoyment of the killing as a distinguishing mark, we can hardly point fingers. You, of course, are holy, so we'll have to skip over your culpability.

On extending the argument: It is an extension, since the previous clause considered necessary consequences, while the second considered probable consequences. Unless drunk driving manslaughter laws are premised on the notion that you will NECESSARILY kill somebody everytime you drive drunk? As for "outlawing defensive war," I made no such claim. What I do have a problem with is the idea that one kind of killing is deliberate, while the other is not. They are both deliberate. Is there a difference in kind between a suicide bomber and a person who initiates a policy that in all likelihood will result in civilian deaths. Of course. But this difference is not sufficient to alleviate the the ethical culpability of the latter - that those who run to this comparison most frequently want to obscure that culpability should be clear by now. Should these things be evaluated on a case by case basis? Certainly. Of course, this gets us into even trickier ethical territory, since one then wonders where the criteria come from, yes?

The question of Israeli policy cannot be settled - though the old canard that "they're doing a lousy job of it - har har har" doesn't get us anywhere, since one can have a policy that authorizes a level of civilian punishment without thereby calling for mass extermination. And, in my experience, those most frequently asserting that they're merely "telling it like it is" are often the most self-righteous of rationalizers, so honk honk, keep tooting that clown horn.

[janx]

105. mobuto, the parading of those Hussein corpses on

U.S. television was beyond anything I've ever seen in my lifetime. It was probably the most indecent and prurient thing I've seen in the media. It reminded me of the custom in the American West--the display of upright corpses outside of saloons. No, it was worse. But I'm very sleepy and on mountain time.

[IndianaGreen]

107. Cutting the throat is the traditional way of butchering animals

It is also the kosher way to butcher. The fact that the GIs had their throats slit is evidence that the Iraqis no longer view Americans as humans.

I will point out that the CIA predicted this would happen if the US persisted in its tactics of invading homes in the middle of the night, and entering rooms in which women and girls slept.

Welcome to the blood feud!

[janx]

80. I'll post here something akin to what I posted in another thread.

We bombed and are occupying another country. Our military leaders are living in the palace of the ousted dictator of that country. Our country has hand-picked the new government for that country while still maintaining control from the palace. The people of that country, who are not so "savage" as you might like to believe they are, have been cut off from water and electricity for a time, as well as their livelihoods and their own physical safety. There are land mines exploding, car bombs detonating; there is gunfire. People are being handcuffed and ousted from their homes.

The fact that teenagers found the corpses of American soldiers and beat them with rocks (and did other atrocities as we have heard) does not mean that they are savages. They may have been savaging at the time; that is true, but my God, are you so naive as to think that such a thing wouldn't happen over there? Do you think that something like that wouldn't happen *here*, if the chance were presented?

Do you think that an American soldier has never bludgeoned anyone to death with a rock, nevermind the fact that these people were already dead? People have bludgeoned others with rocks since the beginning of time. Check out the Old Testament.

Our soldiers are in a war. People are killing eachother. This isn't a movie, and it isn't a drill. How many rocks would the "Shock N' Awe" display, televised nationally, equal? How many rocks would make up the very recent "Iron Hammer" (unfortunate name) operation equal?

I wonder: would I rather been blown up, my body parts spewing in many directions, or would I rather be beaten with a rock after I'm dead? I think I'd take the latter.

[mobuto]

89. The Iraqi People are not savages

nor did I say they were.

I was referring exclusively to the gang of teenagers who dragged these men from their truck, slit their throats, and then stoned their corpses. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

The fact that teenagers found the corpses of American soldiers and beat them with rocks (and did other atrocities as we have heard) does not mean that they are savages. They may have been savaging at the time; that is true, but my God, are you so naive as to think that such a thing wouldn't happen over there? Do you think that something like that wouldn't happen *here*, if the chance were presented?

I have no idea what to expect. No, I guess I can say I didn't expect that.

Do you think that an American soldier has never bludgeoned anyone to death with a rock, nevermind the fact that these people were already dead? People have bludgeoned others with rocks since the beginning of time. Check out the Old Testament.


There are a lot of atrocities in the Old Testament, sure. But these teenagers seem to have derived pleasure from what they were doing. I suppose that's not uncommon, but its not something you can get used to knowing.

[janx]

95. Get used to it.

If this PNAC war continues, there will be more.

That's all I can say in response to your last post. I wish it were different.

[markses]

75. Because it is much more "savage"

to pummel the invading army with concrete blocks than it is to sit gingerly picking at your almond encrusted tuna steak in a fancy restaurant overlooking the Potomac, while your armies murder thousands of people for no particular reason, yes? We're all quite refined, aren't we, dear?

Hell, mobuto, this is your baby, isn't it. We all remember your brutish, distanced cheerleading.

Hell, some of us even remember your extensive knowledge of Rilke's poetry in the original German, all while you claimed to be in high school! Und in den Wipfeln, wie ein aufersteh'n, ja?

[janx]

76. Rilke?

He sounds more like James Fenimore Cooper!

[markses]

78. LOL. You'll get chapter and verse from The Pioneers

and no mistake!

[mobuto]

96. ???

Hell, some of us even remember your extensive knowledge of Rilke's poetry in the original German, all while you claimed to be in high school!

You made the same odd claim what, six months ago? I asked you then to show me when I had claimed to be in high school or nursery or something along those line. I don't recall a response, but then, my memory has never been as good as yours.


Hell, mobuto, this is your baby, isn't it. We all remember your brutish, distanced cheerleading.

I'm afraid I can't trust your memory. Because my memories - to the extant that I have them - are once again different than yours.

For one, I remember opposing the war from the outset.

Did I support getting rid of Saddam? Absolutely. Given what I was told about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction by our government, by the United Nations, by the British, by the French, by every supposed expert in the world, I figured Saddam to pose a threat to stability. Or that's what I remember thinking.

Now I don't remember ever supporting Mr. Bush's war, and don't you say I did, unless you can prove me a liar. Because the only action I would have supported would have included the support of the United Nations and the participation of a wide coalition of countries.

Now even that much was probably wrong, given that the intelligence on WMD was totally inaccurate, but I remind you that a year ago nobody questioned that Saddam had chemical and biological weapons.

[markses]

97. You're right

Your memory is not as good.

[mobuto]

100. Ok, Mack

So make me out to be a liar.

Remind me of when I was in high school, or when I supported the war.

If you're big enough to level the silly charge, you got to be big enough to back it up with something more substantive than a one-sentence, one-clause response.

Because I don't want to have to go digging back for this thread six months from now when you remember something new.

[markses]

106. I'll keep making the charge

Cuz it's true. Certainly can't support it with a six-month archive search, but I'll give you the context. One poster had something written in German - a song, I think. A poster named Rabideau responded by quoting the first few lines of the Requiem, which you responded to. It was in that thread.

Am I gonna find it? No. But that ain't gonna stop me from saying it.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rhino91063]

81. I think this shows what a lie

The republicans sold the public with their "we are liberating them" comments. Then you read the right wing comments about the Iraqis and how they hate them, and it only confirms the lies.

Rich

[janx]

82. This confirms the lies, too. From the Freerepublic website:

To: bjcintennessee

Thank you so much. Just got a call from Ryan (the first in a month) and he said he was in an intense hour long firefight in the town of Khaldiyah Thursday night. His unit consisting of 20 soldiers was surrounded by about 50 insurgents. RPG's were flying over their heads and they heard bullet's wizzings all around them. The insurgents also attempted to walk mortar rounds into their position. Air support was called in and bombs were dropped on the house from which RPG's were seen fired. My son said one soldier was slightly injured, all are doing well. We pray for him everyday.


158 posted on 11/23/2003 5:25 PM MST by jonsie



That kid could be dead in an instant--and for *what*? Notice the syntax, spelling, and punctuation. Note the use of the word "insurgents." This from a mother whose kid is in Chimpy's war. It makes me sick. I don't care if this woman is a right winger. I don't want her to lose her son. There is no reason for this except for some craze-assed PNAC dream and some Poppy's Revenge kind of mentality!

[45th Med]

88. PICTURES OF MUTILATED SOLDIERS ALL OVER NEWS NOW!

I will not post a picture. Goto Drudgereport.

WE NEED TO LEAVE IRAQ NOW!

[alcuno]

90. Where are the pictures from?

Journalists were there taking pictures?

[45th Med]

91. Seems so, maybe bystanders......

Things just keep going from bad to worst!

What's GW gotta say about this and the DHL commercial plane getting hit by a SAM?

He's gonna just keep on saying "WE'RE WINNING....BRING IT ON!"

[IndianaGreen]

92. Those are the pictures that the American people MUST see!

It was the pictures from Mogadishu that brought an end to our intervention in that country. We must bring the occupation of Iraq to an end before others die.

[IndianaGreen]

93. "They hate Americans round here" (The Independent-UK)

Iraqi mob mutilates bodies of US troops killed by guerrillas
By Phil Reeves in Tikrit
24 November 2003

The attack was unusually ferocious, even by the ruthless standards of this seven-month conflict. It dealt a blow to the US strategy of promoting the view that the majority of Iraqi civilians are on the side of the "coalition", and that its only enemy is a small number involved in armed resistance.

"They hate Americans round here," said one Iraqi on-looker. "They've been doing many raids around here, so it's not surprising they were attacked."

Reports from Iraqi witnesses said the soldiers' throats had been slit and that they had been stabbed. A spokesman for the 101st Airborne Division, which the two men belonged to, said they had been shot. He said that they had been attacked when travelling between US military bases.

It was the latest in a surge of attacks in Mosul, where two Black Hawk helicopters crashed into one another a week ago after guerrillas hit one with a missile. It killed 17 American soldiers in the deadliest single strike against US forces since the occupation began. Two Iraqis were killed on Saturday after a bomb in an orange cart exploded alongside a passing American convoy.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=466570

[aeon flux]

101. ...

[mobuto]

102. No, other sources

confirm this is the same incident. Only two Americans had their throats cut in Mosul, Sunday.

[aeon flux]

103. thanks

[VolcanoJen]

108. kick (n/m)

...