Student Group Lists Professors It Considers Too Politicized

[DeepModem Mom]

Washington Post, re. Young Conservatives of Texas, University of Texas:


The list, published on the group's Web site, www.yct.org, and distributed on campus, criticizes 10 professors -- nine of them liberals, in Kinghorn's view -- for using their classrooms to promote personal agendas and "indoctrinate" students. Kinghorn insists the list is a tool for students to make informed course choices. Critics call it a blacklist whose goal is to intimidate liberal professors and cramp academic freedom.


The publication of the list comes as conservatives are reasserting themselves on college campuses that they believe have been liberal bastions for at least three decades.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8766-2003Nov23.html

[La_Serpiente]

1. What are they trying to do

stifle academic free speech? I am not a lawyer, but I don't know if they could pass any constitutional law.

[Lars39]

49. This effort is well organized by the likes of Lynn Cheney and lots of $$$.

http://www.geobop.com/education/911/heroes/campus/

"ACTA contributed $3.4 billion to colleges and universities last year, making ACTA "the largest private source of support for higher education" (according to its website)"

[SemperEadem]

182. the first to go in any revolution are the intellectuals and free thinkers

[Occulus]

2. Republicans sure do love those lists....

[AP]

3. If I were a professor not on the list...

...I'd wonder what I was doing wrong.

If you're not challenging a bunch of kids, liberal or conservative (but especially conservative) to reevaluate the way they look at the world, then you aren't doing your job.

[BeHereNow]

4. You just posted the thread that broke this camel's back.

That's it- I am done.
Why on earth would the WP even give these morons ink
and space?
That is what REALLY seals the deal for me.
I am OUTTA here.
New Zealand, here I come.
Cause you know, "they hate our feedoms."
Question is, just who are "they?"
"They" are looking like our fellow citizens to me,
and that situation will not end well.
BHN

[LifeDuringWartime]

19. new zealand

do you know what is involved when becoming a citizen of new zealand? i'm interested as well.

[grubstreet]

21. New Zealand

There's a new system in place for gaining permanent residence. You can see the details at:

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/

If you have needed skills (e.g. you are a nurse, a dentist, a builder), you have a better chance of gaining entry -- and if you have a job offer in hand, your case can be expedited.

It's a great place to live -- I moved in July!

[Myra]

85. Congrats grubstreet; care to elaborate?

Do you have family/sponsorship there or did
you apply via another method?

[Ecotopian]

88. Before I jump ship...

I'd like to try to improve things here first, to change things through the system. Or at least to slow down the decline by getting more involved in mass media and possibly law. I think that I'd enjoy making life hell for anti-democratic people. Only if I'm not able to change things anymore after that will I consider leaving. However I might be tempted to change the system from the outside, either by leaving and creating a brain-drain, or through an extension of policy by other means.

[grubstreet]

90. Job offer

I had a job offer and applied under the old system, which calculated your eligibility based on your educational level (higher is better), age (younger is better), and a few other things. I wouldn't have qualified without the job offer --

Good luck!

[Zhade]

5. Young Brownshirts of Texas is more like it.

If they see these schools as "liberal bastions", why are they attending them?

Oh. I see. To "reassert" - i.e. take over - the schools. Gotcha.

[BiggJawn]

17. Because they were too stupid to get into Purdue...

a "Conservative Bastion"....I think most the Young Dudes on campus here still think they can get defferments all the way into grad school. They don't believe it when I tell 'em they will have to report at the end of the semester in which they get their "Greeting!" letter....

[Tommy_Douglas]

44. Have to be leery of those young conservatives...

They're hanging out in the primordial ooze... You know the pond your ancestor climbed out of tens of thousands of years ago?

They call it a hot tub. Sure it looks nice and all but resist the tempatation to slide on in.

Perhaps some profs are "too liberal" but likely its more of the case of a prof showing another side to a story and the truth of it was just too much for the peon brains of some students...

As Bush and the media push the Conservative agenda down your throats it only goes to say there will be those that will push back.

[Ecotopian]

87. Conservative student activists

It was the conservative student activists in Iran who overthrew their government, with the help of conservative power elites of course, and held the US Embassy hostage. What we progressives need is to talk to those young conservatives with their own language and get them to truly understand our point of view. Hopefully they will learn and not be so ignorant.

[grok]

6. What's the issue?

This is not a government in action. Only some whiners.We can do the same.

Frankly, if some pro-life,pro-racist,pro-nazi professor pushing his agenda,giving bad grades for disagreeing with him, recruiting people to HIS side, I wanna KNOW about it. Heck, there were NAZI professors pushing anti-semitism and fascism in the 20's and early 30's in germany. Information is power.

Hey we are good at making lists too. we know and monitor who the conservative talk show hosts are and keep track of every lie. Dammit, we are better at it!

Let's do the same for academics professors. afterall, they are molding minds that WILL make a difference in the future. I bet we can find as many repuke professors screwing up as they do. Or am I wrong?

Grok

[R Hickey]

10. You are wrong grok...

...and my finger was hovering over the alert button several seconds before I decided to respond in writing instead.

The Hitler Youth went after liberal Jewish professors the same way these Neo-Con Republicans are doing now. The right-wing Nazi professors were not punished in Nazi Germany, they were promoted. The liberals and Socialists were put on lists, then were rounded up and gassed in First-Ammendment Camps.

I think many of these current "students" are probably mostly paid political hacks. I suspect that this is a phony astro-turf effort started by someone like Karl Rove or Righard Mellon Scaffe.

If I were a liberal professor, I would give a lower grade to any student who tried to politically intimidate me that way.

[Mountainman]

14. If you were in a class with a conservative prof would you object if

he/she taught conservative values along with the course subject?

I know that for me I would not like to sit through a class with conservatism pushed down my throat every day.

I would certainly want to tell other incoming students about the prof so they wouldn't have to sit in his/her class also.

If this list would include every prof on campus and his/her political slant then it might be OK but these people identify themselves as conservatives and make a list of mostly liberal profs so I am suspicious of their motives. The list needs to be expanded to include the conservative profs as well.

[proud patriot]

39. I have sat through a class of Conservative Teacher before

and I challanged him , and didn't let bias pass without
debate .

If these students can't make their point though class debate
than they are stupid IMHO .

Make a list to intimidate , how can they not see
how utterly Fassist that is I'll never know .

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. That is EXACTLY the problem

You aren't supposed to grade kids on things they do outside or views they hold, it IS supposed to be about the classwork.

[R Hickey]

26. No, not exactly...

First, I'm not a professor, so this is all hypothetical, but if a student of mine was plotting against me, putting my name on lists aiming to do me damage, black lists, hit-lists, lists singling me out, lists motivated by political thuggery, then I'm afraid that I might take things personal, and flunk the rebellious lad.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. Not thuggery

Free speech, much like DU here.

[Heddi]

50. If you flunked him based

what he did during his personal time (black listing you, listing you based on politics), then in most colleges you could get fired.

A student's grade should be based on the work they do in the CLASSROOM, not what they do online.

If you feel your life is in danger based on some list, or that you've been singled out for violence based on what you teach in class, then YOU take that up with the dean and with the police. Let THEM handle it.

A professor has NO right to base my grade on what I do outside of the classroom.

Luckily, most colleges mandate that professors hand out a syllabus at the beginning of the semester/quarter outlining what grades are based on, and what the grade-scale for the class is.

If I had a professor who WENT BEYOND the syllabus and graded me on outside activities instead of my work inside the class, that professor would be out of a job,and would be paying me a handsome sum as well, as I would sue them so fast, their pointed little head would spin like a top.

And then I would sue the school, for allowing the professor to bypass their written obligation to the class (what the syllabus states re: grading policies) and they would most likely fire the professor (if they hadn't done so already), or they too would pay me a hefty sum.

All things being said, that professor wouldn't have to worry about flunking students based on ouside activities much longer, because their classrooms would be empty. Noone would agree to be taught by someone who would judge them on their internet activities in addition to their classroom performance.

My God! What would you do if you heard my friends and I (all currently in college, btw) talking about past teachers we've had who were HORRID? We routinely tell people to take one teacher over another, or to avoid a certain teacher totally---for a variety of reasons. Political, personal, professional----as a student, I have a RIGHT to say whatever I want about a past or present professor as long as I don't endanger their life, or promote violence against them. If I think a professor smells funny, I have the RIGHT to tell other students I think they smell funny and that I'd avoid taking his class if I had the opportunity.

[R Hickey]

74. The question is "Which school yard are we playing in?"

Does this activity of 'listing-liberal-professors' belong in the orderly world of the college campus, the sheltered, make-believe realm, with proms and pom-poms, where professors are promoted on merit, where merit and quality are defined and understood by all, where good students get good grades, and bad students get bad?

Hiddi, do you really think that 'listing-liberal-professors' belongs in that world? Because, nice as that tidy world is, there exists unfortunatly, another larger, grimmer world, a world run by an ex-drunk, who, on his merits, couldn't have become a janitor at your respectable college.

If I was a hypothetical professor, that dark, grim world is the hypothetical campus I would be spouting my liberal blather on. In that world, there wouldn't be any school-yard rules, people would only pretend there are. The bullies would rule and everyone, whether student, professor, soldier or politician, might be a potental enemy.

When viewed in that nasty environment, my hypothetical professor might see these black-lists as the first step down a slippery slope toward death-camps. So not only would he give his plotting student an "F" but he would also do it with some skill, so that the student is kicked out of the school when he complains about his low grade.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Your hypothetical professor

Is scarier than this list by far.

[edzontar]

104. No, Mr. Muddle, what is really scary is that you....

Insist on defending these right-wing would-be blacklisters--they are after these professor's jobs, y'see, and this is part of a movement like the one in the 1950s, when many profs were actually fired for their political views.

[edzontar]

170. One fine point on your post, Heddi...

If a student is coming to your class with the expressed and publicly ackowledged aim of POLICING you and posting his or her politically motivated representation of your views and teaching methods on a "Watch List," how would you handle it?

After all, this "policing" is also going on IN the class, not just on the website. And I would argue that the very motivation is at odds with the notion of an excange of ideas and critical analysis of opinion and interpretation which are at the heart of any true academic endeavor.

I would rather make room in my class (and I do teach classes, and they are always over-enrolled) for an honest and open-minded student of whatvere political views (many of my best students have been what some might call "conservative")--than waste a perfectly good and much-sought after space on one of these self-appointed guardians of conservative political correctness.

I don't know I would work it out in practice, but I would be inclined to advise one of these students to consider taking another class from the rich selection avalable at my institution.

[Muddleoftheroad]

173. I think you wouldn't be that easily put off

You speak up for yourself here and I doubt you would really fear a student in your class monitoring what you say.

Politicians have reporters following them around all the time reporting what they say and do because they are public servants and they survive.

[edzontar]

178. I take your point...but I would have to think about it seriously...

If only because of my sense of obligation to the other students in the class.

It is one thing to have an endless back and forth here.

It is quite another to have an entire semester disrupted by the antics of a freeper watchdog.

If 25 students come to learn, debate, and think, and 1 comes only to harass and file biased "reports" about the professor, I would say that this student is not participating in the true spirit of academic inquiry.

It also gets tough because, no matter how fair you try to be (and I do), if a student is posting crap about you online, and you know it, or if they have already done so with other professors that yu know and respect (and i respect my conservative colleagues just as much as my liberal ones), it is going to have an impact on your attitude toward, and relations with, that person, no matter how hard you try.

Indeed, I would imagine that the students who are posting this garbage have hurt themselves rather badly by doing so.

I can't imagine that any self-respecting teacher (indeed, anyone who was not a far-right freeper themselves) would want to have them in their class.

[Muddleoftheroad]

179. Nevertheless

The actions of this student are becoming increasingly common in academia as students not only gain access to student reviews of teachers (often posted online) but as various websites use teacher reviews as subject matter.

With the increase in online education, the chance that whatever you do INSTANTLY ends up on line also increases. So I fail to see these actions to be a big departure.

Yes, ANY student can disrupt a class -- even a smart, over-achieving one, simply by dominating a discussion. As a prof, you have to cope with that. This is just more of the same.

As an aside, these students also posted positive comments about some professors. So some might be quite happy with their reviews.

[edzontar]

183. Online education may be hazardous to your mind....

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I insist that the REAL stuff happens in class.

Returning to the case at hand, none of this really matters, since these student's ultimate goals are clear enough--I would prefer not to have them in my classroom, and would take at least some steps to encourage them to stay away.

[Tinoire]

30. He got an A so your point is mute. This is about scaring people

into towing the conservative line. Professors are there to expand your mind not to narrow it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Free speech

Is all about expanding the mind. They are exercising their rights, even if we don't like what they say.

[Tinoire]

41. The are shutting up people because they don't like what they say

The are just the GOP extension of Daniel Pipe's Campus Watch.

There's no Free Speech issue here. This is all about intimidation and towing the Republican & White Supremacist line.

Their web-site was enlightening.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. No one is being silenced

If they were, I would object strongly. This is opinion and if you can't express your opinion in college, where the hell can you?

[OldCurmudgeon]

46. so is it okay...

Is it okay if one or more of profs on "the list" create a web site criticizing the conservative students? Deriding the student's opinions as incoherent, biased, moronic and ignorant? Citing examples of the student's more "entertaining" statements in class?

Think that would be okay with you? With the students? With the school? If the profs did this, don't you think they'd have some official heat put on them?

The conservatives students of texas know that they are attacking a target that can't hit back. How brave of them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. No, he is a teacher

He can post a web page defending his style of teaching, but teachers cannot be allowed to attack students. The teachers, as you recall, are the ones in the positions of power. The teacher can also post attacking this concept, just not personal attacks on the students. They are, after all, criticizing his work which is fair comment. Especially since they pay his salary.

[edzontar]

56. So, Muddle, have you visited the yct board...

The "Young Conservatives of Texas"--yeah, they are just trying to criticize "both sides," right...

Why do you repeatedly defend far-right conservatives like these?

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. I read the article only

No I have not been to their web site. Nor do I need to go. College students have the right of free speech -- even if I think what they say is stupid.

I defend free speech. I hate Nazis, but the ACLU defended them to go through Skokie.

I support equality and equal treatment. If we can't defend speech that offends us, we all lose out when people want to limit speech that only offends THEM.

[edzontar]

60. You should follow the link...

And stop defending the "free speech" of people whose goal is to SILENCE voices on campus.

The enemies of free speeech are the "list-pubishing" members of the yct.--NOT those who oppose them.

This is part of an orchestrated, nation-wide effort that I posted about a few weeks ago--coming from Lynne Cheney and Daniel Pipes.

As I recall, you defended them then, too....

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Free speech

Free speech, as the folks at the ACLU will tell you, is only free if we defend ALL speech, not just speech we agree with.

College students, as much as anybody, need the chance to learn by expressing their opinions. Even if they are assholes about it.

I quote from the ACLU site:

"The First Amendment exists precisely to protect the most offensive and controversial speech from government suppression. The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech. Persuasion, not coercion, is the solution."

http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeechMain.cfm

[edzontar]

66. These students are attacking the Prof's Freedom of Speech

Not the other way around.

Why do you instinctively move to defend the freeper studnets, when no one is challenging their freedom of expression\?

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. Because no one else IS defending their rights

Sometimes I do indeed hop on the bandwagon and criticize something that everyone else is criticizing. But the reality here is that these students, no matter WHAT they say, are exercising their rights. Hell, college students of any sort actually getting politically active is a cool thing. Why? Because an informed and involved electorate is better for everyone.

[edzontar]

73. So, right-wing efforts to blacklist professors are "Cool"?

I have a rather different view of activities like this.

I would call them incidents of incipent fascism.

You have very "interesting" notions regarding adacemic freedom. I must say. Mr. Muddle.

Or else you are very, very naive.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Again, it's free speech

I don't view this as a black list. This is not the government, this is a group of kids speaking their minds.

I believe in free speech, go figure.

[enki23]

93. it's also free speech when people at DU denounce their blacklist effort

.

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. Yes it is

And that is the best thing about DU. The freedom to disagree.

[edzontar]

107. Well, I disagree with your support for these Conservative students....

Which you have couched in red-herring terms as a "free speech" issue, without taking any measure of their own goals and motives, which are clearly to try and stifle or limit the professors' freedom of speech.

[Muddleoftheroad]

137. If you tracked my posts

I often support the RIGHT to speech that I do not agree with. That's how the Constitution works.

[edzontar]

146. I have read many of your posts.

I stand by my characterization.

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. I have read many of yours

reluctantly, and I am entirely comfortable defending unpopular free speech to you.

In your quest to follow the crowd, you are forgetting what gives us ALL the right to be here at DU -- freedom.

[edzontar]

152. Not true--Conservatives are not invited here....for example

The administrators make this clear in their own guidlines.

And I support this view.

Conservatives have free republic.

And if someome wanted to set up a site for debate between conservatives and liberals, I think that would a great place for you to go to and post your passionate defense of the Republican Party's constitutional right to scrutinize and intimidate liberal professors.

But this is supposed to be a progressive, Democratic site, and I would expect a least a NOTE of support for the professor's right to free expression and to be FREE from pressure and scrutiny on the part of politically motivated and Republican-organized "Watch-Dogs."

But I do not expect this anymore from you, sir.

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. You missed my point, obviously

DU -- the whole of DU -- exists because of the right of free speech. Yes, Skinner thankfully can make the rules and get rid of yesterday morning's moron attack. But still, we rely on the freedom of speech. If such did not exist in our Constitution, how long do you think DU would survive in its current form?

And yet, there is some stuff posted here that many/most Americans would find offensive. Conspiracy theories that most of us here laugh at, for instance. But America allows it because we are still free.

So, there we are, I support free speech. If you wish to damn me for something, damn me for that and I will be flattered.

[edzontar]

157. OK, I will damn you for not supporting the professor's rights

To free expression in the classroom with anything like the passion you bring to your defense of the conservative thought-police students.

I will damn you for not acknowledging that the concept of a "Watch List" violates the very essence of free speech and represents a step on the road to blacklists and censorship.

And I will damn you for unfairly, and dishonestly, accusing me of not supporting free speech, a charge you know to be untrue, but continue to advance for some unacknowledged reason of your own.

[Muddleoftheroad]

162. That was not the context of the article

When we have specifics about another situation, I will address it. Much as I have the freedom of speech of man who is seeking to keep government information public. I note you aren't posting much on THAT thread.

I do NOT consider a watch list compiled by college students to be anything other than free expression by them. Frankly, as long as the government is not doing it, I don't have a problem at all. These are professors who are teaching people. If they can't handle public criticism, then they need new jobs.

You can damn me all you want for the last item, but I am the one here supporting unpopular speech. You are not.

[edzontar]

165. More red-herrings....

No one has suggested that this group be censored by the government or the university.

The only public opponents of freedom of speech in this issue are the Texas students.

[Muddleoftheroad]

167. How so?

How can they be opponents of free speech when, by their very actions, they embrace it?

Are professors supposed to be above criticism? I didn't realize it was a holy writ that no college professor could be critiqued.

In general, we have beaten this dead horse many times over and duty calls. I'll check back late in the day.

[edzontar]

168. Bye

nt

[Paschall]

99. It's slightly more than "opinion"

These "young conservatives" are lobbyists. Visit their website; they list numerous actions they've taken with the Texas State Legislature, which I'd like to remind you is their teachers' employer.

[Muddleoftheroad]

138. Still, it's free speech

I see no problem with the exercise of that right.

[edzontar]

147. You have made that (irrelevant) point 18 times by now...

No one here has disputed the student's "right" to "free speech"....

Only the students have done that--by keeping a "Watch List" of professors.

Did you see the coverage on Nightline last night?

[Muddleoftheroad]

150. I keep making it because you and others keep questioning it

No I missed "Night Line." I don't typically watch news magazine shows. Not enough real information, just entertainment.

Again, students have every right to keep whatever lists of professors they want. There are actually a variety of web sites that track professor performance and rate professors and such around the nation. Some are political, some are humorous, etc.

[edzontar]

154. You might have LEARNED something....

But then, that assumes that you actually car about this issue, or wold want to anything about it which might lend some "texture" or depths to your postings, which I seriously doubt at this point.

By the way--name one place where I said the students don't have the "Right" to do this.

Guess What? They obviously do. I don't support shutting them down through government or university action.

I do believe, however, that their tactics and motives should be criticized at every opportunity.

Here is your chance.....

[Muddleoftheroad]

158. Nope

Not criticizing freakin' college kids for trying desperately to have an opinion and express it. And, since I don't know the professors in question, to criticize their comments would be making a big leap.

I volunteer with high school kids a lot and I know that having an opinion is rare among many young people. If they become politically educated, I have faith in our future. Free speech is a damn good start.

[edzontar]

160. Yawn--evasion, refusal to engage in fruitful discussion....

You find out about the professors if you wanted to.

Also, the professors are named and criticized one by one in the link provided by the first post.

You wold also find out that these are not an isolated group of "Freakin'College Kids."

But why confuse you with facts.

I am apparently against free speech anyway--as you have asserted, unfairly, about 25 times on this thread.

[Muddleoftheroad]

163. Now you are being silly

How could I find out what the professors actually teach? I'm not travelling to their school and auditing the courses, I don't have that time. Based on the little info in the story, I do have issue with some of the stuff from the one.

I don't care if it is two or 2,000 college kids. If you don't like it, organize a response of liberal college kids to post either in support or critical of right-wing profs. I will support that as well.

[edzontar]

169. Course, websites, news stories, publications, etc.

nt

[Chomskyite]

76. A failure to uphold the standards of professional behavior

. . . also hurts your grade in my class. And it SHOULD, if only for the sake of those students who DO uphold that standard.

This has been my policy as a teacher since I taught my first class at age 22.

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. Heddi said it better than I

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=237578#238330

[Paschall]

98. Muddle, these kids have not provided any evidence...

...that they are being graded g"on things they do outside or views they hold." In fact, at least one of them whose views vary from one of the teachers listed, actually got an A in the class.

This is a strawman argument.

They have said plainly the teachers were targetted because of the views the teachers hold.

[Muddleoftheroad]

139. You know as well as I do

That they have to right to say what they think, especially since they are the ones in the darn classes.

[coda]

16. "..screwing up as they do."

LOL. Screwing up? By making "whites feel guilty for breathing air." ?

:nopity:

This kid Kinghorn, is following orders from whatever rw think tank is doing the funding. If he wants to whine about feeling guilty, then I say encourage it. He can't think for himself and it's on display. Is he too gutless to challenge the prof? He got an "A" in the class (he claims).

As far as finding "...repuke professors screwing up as they do.", tell ya what grok, find a conservative prof making "whites feel guilty for breathing air" and I promise not to whine. :-)


(Kinghorn, 21, is a senior and chairman of the Young Conservatives of Texas)
He said that on racial issues, for instance, liberals had harped on slavery, civil rights violations and ill treatment of blacks to the extent that "whites feel guilty for breathing air."



The lone conservative on the list gets it too.

Economics professor Steve Bronars, a free-market proponent, is the list's lone conservative. Bronars speculates that he was added so "it's not looking like they're picking on professors who have a more liberal approach."

[philosophie_en_rose]

34. Well, there is one benefit to the people on the list.

At least the conservative boycott would keep morons from the classroom. Those morans apparently want pep talks about slavery, bigotry, and injustice. (Go America!)

[Yupster]

7. We did the same thing 20+ years ago

I edited a "Course Guide" for students. We went into each teachers' class and handed out a questionnaire.

Then we published ratings and write-ups on each professor.

Who is easy. Who is hard. Who is incoherent, Who is biased.

I think it was a big help to students who were deciding which classes to take, and we printed great comments from students. "The professor does well despite the handicap of senility" was one I remember.

One professor's wife called me up complaining that her husband got bad ratings.

This is what college is for. It's a place for kids to get active and assert themselves.

Leave them alone. They'll have fun, learn stuff, and maybe even do some good. There really are some truly awful professors out there.

[Paschall]

11. Student ratings are one thing

I know the US university I attended did them.

But targetting professors for "politicizing" courses is another.

And the student ratings you're talking about--like the ones I participated in--were open to ALL students. Not put together in a "smoke-filled room" by a group of political ideologues.

Needless to say, you seem to be overlooking the fact that this effort is no doubt inspired by the Lynne Cheney/Joe Lieberman campaign launched a few months ago for precisely the same purpose of stifling academic freedom and open dissent. Check it out:

Lynne Cheney-Joe Lieberman Group Puts Out a Blacklist
by Roberto J. Gonzalez
AN aggressive attack on freedom has been launched upon America's college campuses. Its perpetrators seek the elimination of ideas and activities that place Sept. 11 in historical context, or critique the so-called war on terrorism.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

These young Texas conservatives are not just youngsters doing youngster things. They undoubtedly are part of a larger plan. Can you possibly doubt they have links to the Rovian machine? Their website sports a GOP USA banner.

There's also the not so pretty link between David Horowitz and the so-called "Academic Bill of Rights" discussed in the article. The strawman here is the absurd notion that students are graded on their political beliefs and that universities are "indoctrination centers." I butted heads over political issues with a number of university professors--both liberal and conservative--when I was a student and NEVER felt my grades were based on my opinions.

[coda]

18. Did you do that on orders from a think tank that was funding you?

I'm guessing, "No".

"...we published ratings and write-ups on each professor."

Significant difference, IMO.

[edzontar]

61. These are conservatives working with Lynne Cheney....

This is a political attack on liberals--doesn't this bother you just a little?

[LoZoccolo]

8. Bawk bawk bawk bawk.

Why is it these guys can't provide alternative opinions, just silence critics?

Oh yeah, I forgot...

[belab13]

9. hitler youth on parade, dare I say.. eom

[Don_G]

12. It Would Be Interesting To Compare Two Lists

Say, a list of these young idiots to the list the draft board should have on file to see if a few names were missing?

[izzie]

13. This was Lynn's job . A list of all the liberals teaching.

I am sure these prof. will be out as with the people, as with the NIH people. Laissir faire govt. has taken over, like it of not.

[dusty64]

15. OK for the extreme

rightwing students to try and "force" their views though. The double standards of these "people" certainly is astounding.

[Justice]

20. I Read About

Something similiar where conservatives went and look at the voter records of every professor at 8 top schools to check the party affiliation of the professor -- and then publicize all professors who were in the democratic party.

Imagine on one side of their mouth the conservatives cry - freedom! Freedom! FREEDOM! while on the other they attempt to marginalize, minimize and be-little anyone who doesn't agree with them lockstep.

It is truly amazing stuff.

[Mikimouse]

22. "It is the primary task of the teacher to

teach students to recognize inconvenient facts." Max Weber on Politics in the classroom

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. A Salient Point

That is getting missed here is they are criticizing both the left AND the right for politicizing professors. Though the bulk of their critique was anti-left, not all of it was. Nor were all of their positive comments geared toward the right.

They were honest and said they had only looked at 20 profs. Of those, 13 were either criticized or recommended.

Yes, they are conservative, but it IS free speech. Maybe that exercise will teach them, and others, something.

[coda]

28. That's bs Muddle

Even the lone conservative on their list knew what was up.

It has nothing to do with "rating" a professor, they're targeting liberal professors and it isn't even thinly veiled.

Check out some conservative sites. It's on the agenda.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. It's not BS

Frankly some of the professor's comments bothered me. Did one of them really discuss his sexual orientation in class? I don't think that's appropriate at all.

Professors are supposed to teach not indoctrinate.

[alarcojon]

91. You mean some of the STUDENT VERSIONS of

the prof's comments bothered you. We have no way of knowing what the profs actually said, in what context, etc. College students are notorious for missing the point of the class entirely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are profs who indoctrinate more than teach. They are performing their job badly. IF these comments are to be taken at face value, then I think some of these professors might fall into this category. In other cases, however, I see litle but student ignorance and ideology behind the comments.

Like Muddle, I have no problem with the existence of the watch list. It is the right to free speech, being exercised by college students, not the government. Even if they are being funded and supported by some right-wing group, which is likely, they still have the right to say whatever they want. Our job is to expose the ignorance behind these efforts and to counter them with intelligent, principled defenses of the academy.

Muddle, I do have a problem with your singling out of sexual orientation as an inappropriate subject to bring up in class. It depends on the context. The professor mentioned on the watch list teaches Media Law and Ethics, a subject which could encompass such issues as coverage of social movements, including the gay rights movement. When discussing this issue, why is it inappropriate to mention that you yourself are gay? Straight people have the luxury to be able to advertise our straightness without fear of retribution; for example, I could refer to my "wife" without fear. Why have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in a college classroom?B-)

[Paschall]

100. Muddle...

Are you saying a gay teacher who discusses his sexual orientation in the classroom is "indoctrinating" his students?

[edzontar]

112. As my friend would say--over and over---its about "Free Speech"...

Free Speech to shut up and keep your gay pinko liberal feminist socialist ideas out of the classroom--and we are going to be WATCHING you and keeping a LIST just to make sure that you keep a lid on it....

Its Free Speech--Fascist style!!!!

You'll love it!

[Muddleoftheroad]

140. I don't think personal sexuality relates

Unless it applies to specific subject matter. Even then, it is bound to make some students uncomfortable -- no matter what you express, straight or gay. In the era of lawyers and harassment, I don't see a place for this in school.

[Paschall]

143. I'll repeat my question. Yes or no...

In your Post 38, are you saying a gay teacher who discusses his sexual orientation in the classroom is "indoctrinating" his students?

[Muddleoftheroad]

144. No, not a gay teacher, just a teacher

The choice is this case is actually bi according to his own comments in the article. I don't think the teacher's sexuality is appropriate for the class and I don't care what that sexuality is.

And, just for those following at home, I sex gay rights as a major civil rights issue and I am wildly pro-equal rights for all.

[Tinoire]

29. Jeez Muddle, just what brought you to this board?

The list bashes government professor Jennifer Suchland and sociology professor Gretchen Webber for focusing on inequalities in American gender, race and class. Clement Henry, a government professor, is criticized for alleged pro-Palestinian views. Thomas Garza, a professor of Slavic languages, is named for criticizing American foreign policy and the Bush administration. Government professor David Edwards earned a place on the list for his "hatred of conservatism and capitalism." Edmund T. Gordon, a black professor of anthropology, is accused of overemphasizing white oppression of blacks. Economics professor Harry Cleaver is singled out for an anti-free-market, "postmodernist agenda." Penne Restad, a history professor, is accused of embracing a "far left interpretation of American history.


After over a year and several forums I am still puzzled.

They throw in one token conservative Professor and you herald it as fair.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. It is free speech

And I heralded it as such. I pointed out that they did criticize a right-wing prof as well for doing exactly the same thing. And had heralded a left wing prof for being fair.

I just don't see this as anything other than free speech and that, my friend, is what brought me to this board.

[edzontar]

53. MORE defense of conservatives from a familiar voice....

This is a PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC BOARD, according to the fornt page.

And this is McCathyism on the part of these WINGNUT students.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. I am defending free speech

From college students. On a progressive board, I would expect much the same from you.

[edzontar]

58. You are defending conservative harassment of liberals on campus...

nt.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Nope, defending free speech

The liberal professors I know can handle a whole website daring to criticize the way they teach.

These are grownup professors. If they can't handle a little criticism of what they do then they shouldn't be doing it. It's freedom. You ought to give it a try.

[edzontar]

62. No-you are defending the ENEMIES of free speech....

This is not an ad-hoc bunch of students--this is part of an orchestrated effort t get liberals and progressives fired at out universities.

"Osama University"--remember?

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Note my ACLU quote

Perhaps it will explain this better than I can.

[edzontar]

67. Are you a member? I am.

ACLU opposes these intimidating tactics--the ones used by the STUDENTS.

Why don't you?

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. I don't have to agree with everything they do

And, no I do not belong. I send contributions but do not join.

I used to be in journalism and journalists are not supposed to join advocacy organizations because of bias/perceived bias. Old habits die hard.

[Tinoire]

70. You're defending Gestapo Records for Homeland Security

that's where all of this is headed.

Why not just advocating getting it all over and just letting Daniel Pipes and Ashcroft hand-pick the University Professors so that all the students turn out conservative enough to defend this type of swill?

I am grateful that people didn't defend the goons who tried to censure the Professors who years, decades, and centuries ago taught such subversive ideas sucha as "all men are created equal" and "liberty, egality, fraternity".

Just imagine where we'd all be if those people had been intimidated. I mean really, just imagine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. LOL

These are COLLEGE STUDENTS for God's sake.

No, where this is heading is the same place several other websites are heading. There are apparently a bunch of websites that critique teacher/professor performance. So what?

There is no mandate saying only little wannabe Limbaughs can run these sites. Free expression means ALL sides can speak their minds.

[edzontar]

80. I give up, Muddle....

I just surrender.

I suppose the Hitler youth were "just students" too.

Keep on defending these fine young upholders of the priciples of "Freedom os Speech."

Until they come knocking at YOUR door, which they won't of course....Indeed, I suspect that I and most of the rest of us on this board will be fired and locked up long before it ever offends your particular sensibilities.

Good grief and goodnight!

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. "Fired and locked up?"

So basically, you only support speech you agree with.

Sorry, that's not how free speech works.

[edzontar]

110. The goal of this movement is to intimidate liberals on campus...

And the ultimate desired end is to drive liberal and progressive voices off campus altogether.

Ever heard of the McCarthy period--when the thought police drove countless liberals and "pinkos" off of campuses across the country?

Ever hear of Nixon and J Edgar Hoover and the arrests of anti-war and pother activists in the 1960s. Ever hear of the FBI's bugging of Dr. King?

In the present climate, with the FBI investigating and surveilling anti-war organizations--including, we may assume, this very board,--with the powers of USA Patriot, with the vilification of public opponents of Bush and his war (Dixie Chicks, etc.), with the increasing centralization of control of the media, etc, etc. --it would seem that freedom of expression truly IS under attack-from the right!!!

But excuse me for once more attempting to divert your attention from the false, disgenuous argument that I am somehow against "free speech"..

Anyway....

[Character Assassin]

97. Yawn. You gave up long ago, when you gave up on free speech

Comparisons to the Hitler Youth only serve to show the weakness of your contention.

[edzontar]

105. Oh Yeah? Well listen here, pal....

You don't know a damn thing about me or what my views on free speeech are.

I am a member of the ACLU. I would never endorse any action to silence these students--even though I think they are idiots.

But I would take every opportunity to refute them and condemn their methods in any public forum--just as I have here, and it is MY right of Free Speech to do so.

This is what we do when we funtion as political activists--we ADVOCATE for our views and values and work for the political defeat of the Republican-Fascist right.

Muddle's "free speech" argument is a red-herring and a diversion from discussion of the tru character and merits of the case.

The real question is WHY he (and you) saw fit to raise this issue in the first place --when the real issue is the motives and goals of the Conservative students themselves.

Meanwhile, sir or madam, I would like you to show me where I ever said that these idiots should NOT have the right to to promote their ignorant ideas.

I have NOT.

What I have pointed out is the FACT that their aim--not mine---is to stifle free speech and academic freedom on campus by labelling various professors as comme pinko liberals.

They are doing this with the very real goal of bringing pressure on these professors to SHUT UP or face more scrutiny and pressure--which will probably be directed at their employers in the administration and trustees--who tend to be conservative and in case always seek to avoid controversy from students and alumni.

I belive that it is our charge as PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATSD to defend the right to freedom of expression in the University and everywhere else.

What you don't seem to realize, to my amazement, is that the Conservatives you are defending are, in fact, the REAL enemies of Freedom of Speech.

[Character Assassin]

115. Sure I do...

You don't know a damn thing about me or what my views on free speeech are.

Your views are that somehow, magically, these students exercising their rights are the equivalent of Hitler Youth, Nazis, they're the 'enemies of free speech', etc....

You purposefully mischaracterzie them with ridiculous, over-the-top exaggerations, indicating your position.

I am a member of the ACLU. I would never endorse any action to silence these students--even though I think they are idiots.

I didn't say you would.

But I would take every opportunity to refute them and condemn their methods in any public forum--just as I have here, and it is MY right of Free Speech to do so.

Yawn. I didn't say it wasn't your right.

This is what we do when we funtion as political activists--we ADVOCATE for our views and values and work for the political defeat of the Republican-Fascist right.

No kidding.

Muddle's "free speech" argument is a red-herring and a diversion from discussion of the tru character and merits of the case.

Bullshit.

The real question is WHY he (and you) saw fit to raise this issue in the first place --when the real issue is the motives and goals of the Conservative students themselves.

I defend free speech, the exercise thereof and don't give a pass to those who mischaracterize it.

Meanwhile, sir or madam, I would like you to show me where I ever said that these idiots should NOT have the right to to promote their ignorant ideas.

I didn't.

I have NOT.

Oh, good. It looks like we agree.

What I have pointed out is the FACT that their aim--not mine---is to stifle free speech and academic freedom on campus by labelling various professors as comme pinko liberals.

You have indeed tried to point that out. However, since you're wrong, and they're not trying to stifle free speech and academic freedom, your point is moot.

They are doing this with the very real goal of bringing pressure on these professors to SHUT UP or face more scrutiny and pressure--which will probably be directed at their employers in the administration and trustees--who tend to be conservative and in case always seek to avoid controversy from students and alumni.

We disagree, it seems.

I belive that it is our charge as PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATSD to defend the right to freedom of expression in the University and everywhere else.

Please, do so. Just don't expect for others to let it slide when you mischaracterize a situation, calling it something it's not and using Chicken-Little comparisons.

What you don't seem to realize, to my amazement, is that the Conservatives you are defending are, in fact, the REAL enemies of Freedom of Speech.

No, they're not.

[edzontar]

119. First of all-THEY ARE enemies of free speech....

As is clear from their tactics, which resemble those used in the 1950s by Mc Carthyites--"lists" and the like, right, plus the Hitler reference was to the banning of non-Nazi sppech at Germany's universities in the 1930s--and the activities of Nazi youth groups in this same period, who "targeted" professors who were "Enemies of the Riech."

On the broader point, I could just as easily have referenced Soviet Russia or Saddam's Iraq, where academic speech was similarly policed and proscribed.

So while my rhetoric was "heated," the historical circumstances I refer to bear comparison as examples of the possible END towards which activities like these point--to the blacklisting of certain views on campuses, which actually happend just half a century ago, under pressure from a pervious generation of conservatives.

Secondly, if I may say it: Yiur ppst began with the following statement:

"You gave up long ago, when you gave up on free speech"

Then, in the response above, you state, in effect, that you did not accuse me of favoring censorial action against these idiots.

But that is what "giving up on free speech" actually means--I only attacked these CONSERVATIVE ENEMIES OF LIBERALISM and the DEMOCRATIC PARTY for THEIR OWN anti-free speech ideas and activities...so that makes ME an enemy of Free Speech.

I find your argument very.....Interesting.

Then you go on to defend the activities of these Right-Wing students on their own merits, and assert they are NOT, in fact, opponents of free speech...you assert this not once, but twice.

I assume, then, that you belive it is perfectly "OK" and even sort-of "cool" to publish lists of professors with "Politicized" views---

What do you think the goal of this excercise is, then, may I ask, if not to apply pressure on this liberals and (in one case) an openly gay professor?

[Character Assassin]

121. You can say that all you wish, it doesn't make it so.

As is clear from their tactics, which resemble those used in the 1950s by Mc Carthyites--"lists" and the like, right, plus the Hitler reference was to the banning of non-Nazi sppech at Germany's universities in the 1930s--and the activities of Nazi youth groups in this same period, who "targeted" professors who were "Enemies of the Riech."

Again, that is a ridiculous comparison. This isn't Nazi Germany, or 1950's America, and these professors are not in danger of losing their jobs because of a (gasp!) list that a student group puts out. No one has been banned, no one is in undergoing being banned and no one will be banned.

On the broader point, I could just as easily have referenced Soviet Russia or Saddam's Iraq, where academic speech was similarly policed and proscribed.

You would be just as wrong and your example would have been just as unjustifiable.

So while my rhetoric was "heated," the historical circumstances I refer to bear comparison as examples of the possible END towards which activities like these point--to the blacklisting of certain views on campuses

No views are being 'blacklisted' on campus. These professors are speaking out. The students haven't gotten anyone fired.

which actually happend just half a century ago, under pressure from a pervious generation of conservatives.

I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that it is somehow recreating itself today. It's not.

Secondly, if I may say it: Yiur ppst began with the following statement:

"You gave up long ago, when you gave up on free speech"

Then, in the response above, you state, in effect, that you did not accuse me of favoring censorial action against these idiots.

No, I'm accusing you of purposefully mischaracterizing what they're doing and exaggerating any potential effect they might have with ridiculous comparisons.

But that is what "giving up on free speech" actually means--I only attacked these CONSERVATIVE ENEMIES OF LIBERALISM and the DEMOCRATIC PARTY for THEIR OWN anti-free speech ideas and activities...so that makes ME an enemy of Free Speech.

Because you are resorting to obvious distortion in trying to discredit them.

I find your argument very.....Interesting.

Glad you do.

Then you go on to defend the activities of these Right-Wing students on their own merits, and assert they are NOT, in fact, opponents of free speech...you assert this not once, but twice.

I still do. I guess that makes it three times now, not including anything written above.

I assume, then, that you belive it is perfectly "OK" and even sort-of "cool" to publish lists of professors with "Politicized" views---

Assuming will get you into trouble. I do think it's perfectly OK, but I don't think it's particulary cool, just as I think inappropriate use of quotation marks isn't cool.

What do you think the goal of this excercise is, then, may I ask, if not to apply pressure on this liberals and (in one case) an openly gay professor?

The article said he was bi, and coming out to a class, unless it were possibly a Human Sexuality class, is a waste of the students' time and money.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

129. How could a libertarian agree to something like this:

From the above post:

"Q: Do you support the policing and surveillance of "Antiwar" groups and sites?


A: By the gov't? You bet."

(edited for my idiotic typos)....

Any reading of this would presume that you SUPPORT government surveillance and spying on anti-war groups?

Is that your position?

I'd like to give you a chance to carify this point.

If so, it would go along way to explaining your thrice-expressed support for our Republican oppoenents.

If not, I assume you just misread my question.

[Character Assassin]

130. That is one assumption you'd be correct in

Indeed I am against such surveillance by gov't agencies.

[edzontar]

134. Well thank god for THAT..

I am wondering then, rhetoric aside, if you are familiair with the efforts of people like Lynne Cheney and Daniel Pipes to set up a national framework for coordinating the activities of "watchdog" groups like this one in Texas, whose stated goal is the surveillance of campus opinion to track down and identify academics who are not sufficently supportive of American foreign policy.

Heard of this?

They have already begun to collect, and i think have even published a sort of draft version of a "national" list of these "un-American" professors, mostly in Middle East study programs.

The Texas Conservative Students are most likely affiliated in some way with this effort, and there is a general trend for these student RW groups to be "tied" in to national frameworks with close ties to the Bush administration and various RW advocacy groups.

This idea of conducted surveillance and compliling "lists" is clearly headed in the general direction of compoiling "blacklists"--thus the reference to Joe McCarhy and the 1950s-60s policing of academics. This was a period when many lst their jobs and livlihood because of their political affiliaitions.

What I am suggesting, along with the majority of people in this thread, is that these effort sin Texas are most likely part of this broader movement, and its goal is at the very least to stifle and police expression--this may prove especially effective in places like Texas where the new "Conservativism" is especially strong.

So I would encourage you to think a little more deeply about the implications of this, and how these actions play a part in a larger program of anti-dissent activity sponsored by the administration and the conservative right.

If you don't want to equate them with Nazis, that is your decision.

My point is, and always has beem, that these are dangerous times, and that these students are footsoldiers in a much larger movement.

As a "libertarian", and thus, I presume, a conservative of the laissez-faire type, I would assume that the institution, in steps, of the machinery of a police state would worry you just a bit.

Well, this is just one brick in that wall, i would suggest, and I would encorage you to look further into it before wasting your time calling ME an an opponent of free speech.

For I am nothing of the kind.

I hearby declare this case closed.

[0007]

118. Are you sure it wasn't Lynee Chene and Bill Bennett?

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. We should start a conservative professor list.

I have a few from UCF I'd like to out.

[GinaMaria]

33. I have a long list too

from the state U I attended. I'm always a little jealous when I hear about liberal professors at colleges. I feel a bit cheated. My university was extreme right wing. Local gop 'helped' in student government elections.

[Iverson]

47. No!

Blacklisting people has a chilling effect upon free speech and certainly upon academic freedom. It is also vitally important not to legitimize the tactics of the neoconservatives.

[rman]

27. of course these students are not politicized at all...

with them being "Young Conservatives of Texas".

[edzontar]

55. RIGHT--I suggest you visit their site and see....

These are RW REPUKES and should not be defended by any self-respecting member of this board...

hint hint

[durutti]

31. Everyone Must Read This Book

The Myth of Political Correctness by John K. Wilson.

Do it now!

[Fovea]

32. I would be curious

if this list did not become a
recommended class list for the non-fundie-PNAC
crowd.

IOW-- are these going to be the most popular profs?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

43. Is this kid a freeper?

Has he been indoctrinated or what?

There are occasionally faculty who inject their political causes into the classroom. I've known of only one, personally, who has done so on a regular basis. And she was fired.

[Tinoire]

102. Reposting # 36 in case the mods have to delete

Sorry to piggy back on you but this is the best way I could think of to have this post remain near the top of the sub-thread because the mods may have to delete my original... It's too huge because of the Freeper JPGs.... :)

Orgininal 36 that Janx (and sub posts) was responding to:

Tinoire (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-03 07:42 AM
Response to Original message

36. About young Austin Kinghorn, O'Reilly-ite


- religious studies junior ((let's just guess the religious beliefs))

- anyone who takes the YCT's list into consideration when registering remembers that the YCT is the same group who posted racist fliers on campus.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/adupont/79533.html


This is the LAST person I want as a journalist! Someone so narrow-minded they only want the party-line.

======================
Young Conservatives of Texas
University of Texas Chapter



Check back here often for more information on YCT's drive to get a statue of the Ten Commandments placed on or around campus. You can donate online using PayPal by clicking on the donations link to the left.

--

Spring 2004 Watch List

Instructor: Robert Jensen
Department: Journalism
Course Evaluated: Critical Issues in Journalism
Spring 2004 courses: Critical Issues in Journalism

In a survey course about Journalism, one might expect to learn about the industry, some basics about reporting and layout, the history of journalism, the values of a free press and what careers make the news machine function. Instead, Jensen introduces the unsuspecting student to a crash course in socialism, white privilege, the "truth"; about the Persian Gulf War and the role of America as the world's prominent sponsor of terrorism. Jensen half-heartedly attempts to tie his rants to "critical issues" in journalism, insisting his lessons are valid under the guise of teaching potential journalists to "think" about the world around them. Jensen is also renowned for using class time when he teaches Media Law and Ethics to "come out" and analogize gay rights with the civil rights movement. Ostensibly, this relates somehow to his course material.


Instructor: David Edwards
Department: Government
Course Evaluated: International Relations
Spring 2004 courses: Politics and Reality, 310 American Government

Dr. Edwards allows his hatred of conservatism and capitalism to permeate his entire curriculum. His videos reflect the left-wing viewpoint nine times out of 10. He teaches one side of the story, and uses examples of Bush's policies for nearly every criticism of political actors. The articles he highlights from the New York Times are almost always criticisms of capitalism, free trade organizations or the Iraq war.


Instructor: Gretchen Webber
Department: Sociology
Course Evaluated: Introduction To The Study Of Society
Spring 2004 courses: Pending

This introductory sociology survey course is taught by Dr. Webber primarily from a conflict theory perspective, although Webber, the textbook and the readings do deal with competing sociological perspectives such as functionalism, symbolic interactionism and feminism . Webber and the readings’ emphasis on conflict theory mean that a certain interrelated set of premises are assumed at the outset of the course: A nation’s economic wealth is finite; there is "conflict" over this finite wealth along race, class, and gender lines; racial, class, and gender oppression and exploitation result from the dominant group - wealthy, white males - subjugating "subordinate" groups in an effort to hold onto their finite wealth and "perpetuate the status quo;" and finally, challenging racial, class, and gender inequality should be America’s number one policy objective. None of the readings advocate much of a role for an individual’s free will; instead the readings postulate that economic and social forces "determine" most people’s position in the "social hierarchy."

Instructor: Thomas Garza
Department: Slavic Languages and Literature College of Liberal Arts
Course evaluated: The Vampire in Slavic Culture
Spring 2004 courses: Unavailable

Dr. Garza uses his position during lecture to make cheap verbal attacks on American foreign policy and the Bush administration. During one class session he made a vague, yet acidic remark, stating that the past actions of certain moral conservatives are hypocritical because the United States is a nation "that bombs people from other countries for no other reason than the fact that they look different than us." On another occasion, he referred to President George H.W. Bush as "...you know, the President Bush that was actually elected," thus making the implication that the current President holds his office illegitimately. None of these statements were relevant to the subject material, nor did they come with any qualification whatsoever-- he arrogantly offered these remarks as if they were simply a matter of common knowledge.


http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/yct/watchlist.html

And how cute! "Affirmative Action" Bake Sales.

----


We would like to thank everyone who came out to the rally. You can see pictures from the rally or the rally in the news on this site. ((OH yeah lots of great articles here such as the BBC's "Texans Fly the Flag for War"

To find a rally in your state, visit The Freeper\'s Rally Website.
Here is another list of rallys: TexasCC.net ((takes you straight to the Republican Leadership Council of Montgomery County )



http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/yct/rallyforamerica/







Have you heard the word?
The revolution's over.
Now the anger's disappeared
And the rebels are much older.
And the schools and universities
Are turning out a brand new breed of young conservatives.

<snip>

The establishment is winning,
Now the battle's nearly won.
The rebels are conforming,
See the father, now the sons.
All the urgency and energy
Have turned into complacency,
Now the schools and universities are turning out a
brand new breed of young conservatives.
Conservatives.


The Kinks http://www.songlyrics.com/song-lyrics/Kinks/Miscellaneous/Young_Conservatives/89233.html

[edzontar]

113. Thanks, Tinoire...

So far, so good.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

65. Seen this, Muddle? You should be supporting the PROFESSORS!

Not these freeper Mc Carthyite RW students.

The only ones whose "freedom" of speech is being threated in this case are the professors.....

[toopers]

94. What do you suggest happen to these students?

EOM

[edzontar]

106. They should be criticized.

They should be scolded by editorialists.

I would suggest writing letters to the local and campus newpapers.

I would suggest that the financing and other political connections of the group might make an interesting topic for an investigative report by the above.

I would encourage the university to up in favor of the rights of professors and all other members of the academic community to express their personal and political views.

Finally, I would hope that the reactionary views and pressure-tactics of these misguided students would be denounced by all thinking members of the DU community.

That is about it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

141. Sorry, I support the exercise of free speech

As a former journalist, it's hard to do otherwise for me.

[edzontar]

151. How about Free Speech for Professors?

Do you have any views on that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. I didn't see anybody stopping them

Every academic institution I have ever dealt with has had strong freedoms for professors -- especially tenured ones.

I don't see anyone from the school criticizing the one professor's discussion of his own sexuality, which does seem to be inappropriate. (Frankly, discussion of a professor's sexuality -- gay or straight or bi -- seems inappropriate for most if not all classes.)

I don't see the need to defend that which is not significantly on the attack. And, no, a group of students posting a few comments on a web site is NOT a significant attack.

The big difference here is the power relationship. Teachers have the power -- the power to mold, to influence and even to fail students. If they use that to teach, great. If they abuse it, it's wrong.

How would you feel about a professor who taught creationism?

[edzontar]

156. You are either naive, disingenous, or both...

As anyone who lived through the sixties knows, students have a tremendous amount of power on campus, when and if they decide to exercise it.

Also, students go on to becoemalumni, who have even more power in their role as donors.

Universirty administrators quake in mortal fear of angering their donor base.

In Texas, we may assume a vocally conservative element in that base.

What you don't seem to "get"--although it has been pointed out a thousand times by now--is that this student group is part of a broader movement, and is probably--almost certaintly--aligned with Daneil Pipe's Campus Watch and Lynne Cheney.

And the ultimate goal of this group is to bring the "culture wars" to US campouses, to root our liberal and "Radical" professors, and promote the hiring of conservatives (of their choosing) to replace them.

This is a truly unprecedented effort to politicize the American university system--and the students in Texas are best understood as "footsoldiers" in this broader effort.

Look, Muddle, if this it too confusing for you, I suggest you track down the Nightline transcripts, which covered the issue from both "sides."

Or follow some of the links provided by my colleagues.

That is, I suggest this if you really have a true and honest interest in this issue...which is still far from clear to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

159. You still don't get it

I don't care whether this is a couple kids or a couple thousand. If it becomes a right-wing movement, it will run smack dab into a left-wing response. I will support that as well.

In the meantime, maybe both sides will learn something -- especially about freedom of speech.

Sorry, the American university system has been politicized since the '60s that you reference. That may change some day, but not soon.

In the meantime, students have more information about their choices on campus. What they do with it is their choice.

[edzontar]

161. So, you agree with the Conservative Students of Texas...

You believe that liberals and radicals have "infiltrated" our campuses and are "indoctrinating" our students?

Have you finally revealed your true position on this issue?

[Muddleoftheroad]

164. LOL

Your debating tactics are getting less effective and more ridiculous. I don't agree with them about anything except I had some issues with what appear to be comments from one prof. Oh yeah, that and their ability to post because of their 1st Amendment rights.

[edzontar]

166. LOL indeed...and a pretty good dodge--I almost had you...

End of exchange.

[Muddleoftheroad]

174. You had nothing

Big surprise.

[edzontar]

176. I am satisfied with what has been revealed so far.

nt

[TahitiNut]

127. Removed this post due to the huge graphics files.

We/I appreciate Tinoire's understanding of this.

Here're the graphic's URLs, munged to preclude automatic inclusion...

The first one:
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/yct/rallyforamerica/images/pictures/DSC00768 .JPG

and the second one:
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/yct/rallyforamerica/images/pictures/DSC00799 .JPG

Each of these freeper pics is 1600x1200 and over 870KB.
Anyone wishing to view them can copy'n'paste the URL into a browser location bar, remove the blank, and hit enter.

Thanks,
TahitiNut - DU moderator

[JohnOneillsMemory]

45. Free speech includes the right to be "wrong." Bring 'em on!

My mother is a college history professor so this issue strikes home.

While I don't agree with the young conservatives in the least, I firmly believe that criticising one's educators is fair game and is a good sign of students giving a damn instead of watching sports, TV, being dettached and clueless. Wait until the DRAFT comes back and they realize that politics is real; it's their ass on the line.!

The mere fact that these young (misguided) students know that there is such a thing as indoctrination is, believe it or not, a step in the right direction!!

What is called for is refutation and dialogue, otherwise known as 'civic discourse,' which, along with an informed electorate (lol), is an essential ingredient of democracy.

There is a conservative movement to roll back the cultural changes of the last 40 years, re-deify Authority,Conformity, Militarism. The Cultural Civil War goes on and the young are on the front lines.

Let's keep telling them why there is a better way of living then an Oilagarchy that commits mass-murder and destroys the planet's ecosystems.

We need to tell them that 'liberal' notions of democratic representation, multi-culturalism, environmentalism and human rights protections better reflect the moral values that the 'religious right' claim as their own and fires up their passions to effect changes in the public realm. It is possible to find common ground with these young folks.

I guess this might be called the 'Bring 'Em On'-school of liberalism.

[Rich Hunt]

51. avoiding dialogue

This is avoiding dialogue, though. There should be more spaces on campus for dialogue between different political camps - this just encourages more separation between political factions on campus.

I had conservative professors in college, and I didn't feel intimidated by them. One of them considered me one of his best students, in fact. The logic here implies that the same dynamic would be at work if the situation were reversed - ergo, a liberal student should avoid a conservative professor. I don't agree with that, either.

It's better for professors and students to be open and civil about their political differences.

It's such a laugh anyway, because when students fail to get a 'B' or higher, they always go running to the prof to negotiate it and the prof usually caves.

It's shouldn't be about the grades, but what you get out of the experience.

[young_at_heart]

52. I wonder how many profs will be intimidated?

The "US" against "THEM" type of thinking is a Republican trait, to be sure.

[Plaid Adder]

78. My guess is it will only make a difference if

some of them don't have tenure yet. That's the only reason I could see why any of them would care.

Making a big political stink can get you on the administration's shit list very easily, and certainly Jensen is already there--he's been an outspoken critic of the Bush administration since the Afghanistan campaign. Jensen, however, already has tenure, and I should point out that this is exactly what tenure was developed to do: protect professors whose work makes things politically difficult for the administration. There has been talk of eliminating tenure because it tends to work the opposite way these days--assistant professors feel pressure to silence themselves because if they speak out they won't GET tenure, and will therefore be forced out. But you can see now why it's necessary.

As long as these 10 profs are tenured, then the YCT can yell all they want and I don't think they would turn a hair. It's not like they don't know what the political climate on the UT campus is. If they're not, then this is a real problem for those of them who aren't.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[edzontar]

81. Tenure provides SOME protection...

But the system has been weakened in recent years, especially in state universities where this sort of repuke pressure can be a very real and significant threat.

Trustees, in particular, can be pressured to respond to arguments like the ones these little Nazis are making....

[rocktivity]

72. BRING IT ON!!!!

Any students against this should organize and FIGHT BACK--preferably with an online list of students who have proven themselves so incapable of learning. That would bring this situation to a quick halt.


rocknation

[wellst0nev0ter]

75. If I Were A Professor, I Would BEG To Be Put On The List

There is nothing wrong with being a liberal and there is certainly nothing wrong in expressing your beliefs and challenging CONservative biases, as long as it doesn't get in the way of classwork. It's just like that dipshit blacklist the NRA has out of people who are "endangering" gun rights. Various celebrities are flocking to get on the list just to assert their commitment to gun control.

[Chomskyite]

77. I would actually take up class time the first day to BEG to be put on it

It can only mean more attention to the subject matter, because you'll get students registering who think you're a fellow-traveler on all their issues. And you'll get a fair share who'll just be curious and also attracted to the forbidden. You'll also have a few hard-right conservatives who will challenge you, some in good faith, some with an eye toward sabotaging you.

In any of these cases, education wins.

[LoneStarLiberal]

79. In the best spirit of college, FIGHT BACK!

We did something here were I went to school for my undergrad (and now am a staff member and a graduate student) when some campus conservatives started their own little hate list of liberal professors who didn't tow their hateful view.

Some friends of mine and I drew up a counter list of conservative professors who hammered their students with the whole "Fuhrer und Vaterland" bit. It worked fairly well; they disappeared in about two semesters' time, in no small part due to the pressure their conservative faculty sponsors were under.

[Stuckinthebush]

86. Professors love this kind of crap

They will beg to be put on the list. Most professors are independent minded individuals, and a list like that from a young conservatives group is confirmation to the professors that they are doing the right thing. Young conservatives don't like to be pushed to critically analyze their world. A professor's job is to ensure that they learn how to be social critics.

This will backfire on the silly young conservatives.

[0007]

122. I'd like to think your right, but I been around too long to know ....

that this is dangerous stuff. The professors all know it also. To be blackballed from your livelihood isn't called "love'

[durutti]

92. Oh, please...

Princeton Review ranks UT one of the most conservative campuses in the nation.

[DeepModem Mom]

96. Wow -- didn't expect such a response to this article I posted...

It's a subject that interests me greatly, because I'm alarmed by the broader issue of the attempted take-over, with varying success, of our national institutions by the right, including the "religious right" -- from churches, to schools and textbooks, to organizations like the AARP, labor unions, music and entertainment, media. Academia, I think, is a last bastion of liberalism, and there is a concerted effort to change that. I think that's wrong. Business, for example, has traditionally been a bastion of conservatism, and that won't change. Students and their families, IMHO, should expect to be exposed to liberal thinking at colleges and universities, as intellectuals tend to be liberal. They can take what they are exposed to, or leave it. They can argue with professors; they can voice their opinion inside and outside of class.

Is there to be no place left in this country where those who hold liberal views are not stigmatized (and I think the list stigmatizes), and are allowed free rein, and even to predominate?

[edzontar]

108. What is most disturbing is that even here, at DU...

There are any number of people who will defend--repeatedly and with passion-- he chilling tactics of this group and their Republican-PNAC sponsors, and will do so--their nerve astonishes me--under the cover of supporting "free speech."

These are truly strange times, and I am concerned for the future of this board.

[Lars39]

109. You've come across

the DU spoke in the wheel. Crops up in any thread that is controversial OR that can be made controversial. I would have released said spoke from membership a long time ago.

[edzontar]

111. Indeed, and the wheel goes round and round...

Diverting discussion from the issue at hand, rasing false issues, and otherwise spinning arounf, as it were, in the general direction of the right.

[Snellius]

101. Why is it always Texas?

What's going on there? I wondered where all those Taliban went.

[The Stranger]

103. Publish a List of the Young Conservatives of Texas

Put it on a web site. Let people make informed choices about whom they associate with or whom they hire.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

114. Cometh the Black List.

Joe McCarthy would just be SO PROUD!

"Are you now, or have you ever been a DEMOCRAT?"

[suegeo]

116. So are they looking at ALL the teachers?

How many teachers do the tax payers employ in our nation's WAR colleges? Are these conservative jackasses looking at the bias of those so-called teachers? Just asking... Don't even get me started on the captains of industry in our university business schools who teach our future business "leaders" how to cheat shareholders.

[edzontar]

117. Of course not--and dont forget the Hoover Institution..

There are plenty of conservative havens , and conservative professors, on our campuses, and I haven't seen any websites aimed against THEM.

I suspect that is because as liberals and progressives, we would shudder at the very thought of such tactics.

(Oh, wait, I forgot, I am "against" free specch--so let's go and get 'em!!!!)

[noonwitch]

123. Maybe they should just go to the unaccredited Bob Jones U, or BJU

If they don't like what U of Texas has to offer.

[Rich Hunt]

133. yeah, the irony

Texas is so conservative.

I think they are just attacking the last bastion of liberalism in the state.

[Lisa]

124. could someone nominate me for the list?

This morning, I was talking about different forecasting techniques to my class, and when it came to historical analogs, I used the example of assuming that your invading army will be welcomed as liberators because that's what happened in occupied Europe in 1945. I then pointed out that Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld had erred in their background assumptions, a fairly common mistake when relying too heavily on past examples.

[jimbot]

126. Hey Suegeo...care to elaborate?

Your comment:
"captains of industry in our university business schools who teach our future business "leaders" how to cheat shareholders"

My understanding is that many b-schools have expanded coverage of ethical issues due to the recent accounting scandals...in your experience, exactly which b-schools are teaching our future business leaders how to cheat shareholders?

--JT

[suegeo]

136. No I do not care to elaborate

Like I said, don't get me started.

But, if you care to elaborate, I am wondering something...

Does the expanded coverage of ethical issues being intro'd to b-schools include plans that will give me back some of the 10s of thousands of dollars that were evaporated out of my 401K in the last 2-3 years?? (I tried to follow the advice of the "experts" in that I put my money into stocks, bonds, money marketfunds. In other words, I did not put all my $$ into one basket, yet I still got taken to the cleaners by our crooked captains of industry.... Hummm....

Just mark me down as bitter for the add'l years I gotta put up with the corporate SOBS, rather than retire...

[jimbot]

142. Sorry for the delay but I will elaborate

No, obviously it won't give any of us our money back...my comment was indirectly stating that the b-schools did not "teach" these people how to cheat you out of your money...I felt you were targeting a party that was clearly not guilty here and venting on them...blame the execs, not the teachers they had 30 years ago.

--JT

[ProfessorGAC]

131. "Indoctrinate"????

These are college aged young adults, right? In 50 minutes a day, four days a week, they can indoctrinate an 18 to 22 year old?!?!? That's just darned AMAZING!

The CIA needs to get hold of these professors. They have mastered a brain washing technique that the CIA would love to have.
The Professor

[Trek234]

132. I don't see anything wrong with this

I'm a student and internally people always talk about rather a teacher is political and to what side. Rather or not you have a list everyone still talks about it and IDs those who are political.

So long as it is students and not the FBI (or other gov agency) I see no problem.

[edzontar]

135. You are naive--this is part of a national movement

Follow some of the links given above--this is a coordinated, Republican, Right-wing effort whose roots are in the White House and the VP's office.

[0rganism]

145. the real danger: will the "blacklist" affect the granting of tenure?

Unmentioned in the article, but I think this is the main bone of contention. If professors' jobs are endangered by the perceptions of a students' special interest group, then there WILL be a chilling effect.

[edzontar]

149. State Universities have been introducing "post-tenure" review

Mostly under pressure from Right-Wing state legislatures.

This has happened, for example, at Penn State, where efforts have also been made to institute "civility" codes and other speech and expression limits.

Attacks on expression at Penn State in the past few years have all come from the state legislature, and have aimed at student Feminist and Lesbian-Gay groups in particular. As a result, it is almost impossible for these groups to get permission to hold events in public spaces here.

Anti-Globalization protesters have also been faced with very repressive measures from administration.

We have not reached the point yet where classroom expression by faculty or students has been threatened.

But groups like the one in Texas are the adnace-guard of a new movement, sponsored by the RP and groups like Campus Watch.org and Lynne Cheney's RW cimapus-watchdog group.

So yes, tenure could very easily become a tool for political enforcement on Campus.

[durutti]

171. I hope they get sued for libel.

Give 'em a taste of their own medicine.

[edzontar]

172. That is also a strategy that is totally legal....

I would at least consider it if they tried it on me...

[Muddleoftheroad]

175. Perfectly legit if they say anything wrong

However, I am pretty sure the profs would be treated as public figures and that's a higher standard to beat in court.

Plus, then, do you want your entire life spent dragging a student through the courts for what he says about your class? Pretty sure it would hurt you more than it would him.

[edzontar]

177. Depends on what they said....

I would say that a public attack on a professor's integrity, framed in a manner liek the ones posted by the Texas students, comes CLOSE to libel..

The issue would be, as you say, whether it was worth the time and money.

[Muddleoftheroad]

180. Not just time and money

In addition, such a trial would become a referendum on their comments. If you couldn't prove them to have libeled you, you would lose and they would appear correct. Sort of squashing a bug with a 10-pound maul. Yes, it can work, but you might miss and hurt yourself.

[edzontar]

184. Yes, that would be the risk--so i probably wouldn't do it.

I don't really like libel suits anyway.

[renegade000]

181. uh oh it's the thought police...