Slavery reparations gaining momentum

[deadparrot]

Advocates who say black Americans should be compensated for slavery and its Jim Crow aftermath are quietly chalking up victories and gaining momentum.

Fueled by the work of scholars and lawyers, their campaign has morphed in recent years from a fringe-group rallying cry into sophisticated, mainstream movement. Most recently, a pair of churches apologized for their part in the slave trade, and one is studying ways to repay black church members.

The overall issue is hardly settled, even among black Americans: Some say that focusing on slavery shouldn't be a top priority or that it doesn't make sense to compensate people generations after a historical wrong.

Yet reparations efforts have led a number of cities and states to approve measures that force businesses to publicize their historical ties to slavery. Several reparations court cases are in progress, and international human rights officials are increasingly spotlighting the issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060709/ap_on_re_us/slavery_reparations

[Faygo Kid]

1. A distraction. Ward Connerly goes everywhere to crush affirmative action

I truly believe the "reparations" movement is a smokescreen to destroy affirmative action. And to split this nation, as Karl Rove wishes to do with all his heart. If he has one. And of course he doesn't.

[BayCityProgressive]

2. I am not sure

How I feel about this. I think Affirmative Action should be preserved. Also, We need equalized education funding and universal healthcare...but how would these reparations be paid out? Could we not instead focus on building infrastructure in low income areas? It seems like this could be a grey area...many many different groups in America have been discriminated against. Jews, Irish, African Americans ect...clearly African Americans suffered the most but will this lead to paying something to every segment of the population? I guess I really don't understand this issue very well..

[readmoreoften]

51. African-Americans AND Native-Americans.

If there is a "most". We wiped out whole Native cultures, whole histories.

[LostinVA]

55. I would put women right up there with the rest of the groups

If specific groups start getting reparations, then women should be included.

[okieinpain]

67. hahahahahahahahahaha.... yeah white women like ann the man

[LostinVA]

70. Excuse me? Glad you think the historical plight of women is a joke

And one that still exists. For shame.

[texasleo]

125. lol

no

[w4rma]

3. Pre-election diversion. (nt)

[oasis]

4. Diverson with a hidden purpose of division. (eom)

[redqueen]

104. Exactly!

Not really so hidden, though, is it?

[Solo_in_MD]

7. Another example of so called progressives playing into the

hand of the repukes and the MSM. Reparations are a non-starter and will only further the perception that Democrats, progessives and liberals are fringe nut groups who should not be taken seriously, let alone be allowed to govern.

[sam sarrha]

5. trying to buy the black vote after stealing it in the last 2 elections

[AlamoDemoc]

6. a trivial at best, yet useless piece for LBN worth

[mvd]

8. I think large companies built partly or all on slave labor..

should give back. I'm not sure mandating it is feasible, but it's a moral issue.

[MikeNearMcChord]

9. Politically it would never happen

even if the WH and Congress were all Democrats,(You can call this the Gift from God Act for the GOP) At best a massive tax revolt, at worst race war, because most Whites would never go for it. (Also other races would rebel at paying it also)Then again it would be the dream of WN's to see it happen, so they can grow their power.

[1932]

10. I think at the core of this issue is an important, larger, reality that

that manifests itself in social and political problems much broader than race.

People transferred a lot of wealth from the bottom to the top through slavery. People had their labor (and liberty) stolen from them (or acquired at rock bottom, unjust prices). Where did that wealth go? It didn't disappear.

So, when slavery ended, there was still another problem. You can't rip people off and then expect them to start from zero and make it all up in a generation (or three). And, in fact, because there are people who made themselves much more wealthy off of making you poor, you're entering a system in which there's a built-in power imbalance that is going to be very hard to overcome if you're a former slave (or victim of a huge economic injustice).

This is a problem that litigants in civil courts around the world every day understand. But it's also a situation that happens on a broader scale. It describes neoliberal foreign policy in which wealthy countries rip off poor countries. It explains gender imbalances. It explains environmental crises. It explains modern war.

Justice in each one of these cases comes in a very similar form.

[jaysunb]

19. You're a very bright person....

Too bad your thoughtful insight will be missed by many.....:toast:

[sandnsea]

36. Need to acknowledge AA contributions

The reason people don't want to fully open the slavery closet is because too many would have to admit it wasn't *insert dead white guy* who built their city, county, key industry, mansion society - it was slaves. It would flip our entire culture and view of ourselves and our country if we proclaimed minority slave laborers as the real builders of the country. That's what African Americans really need to pound home if they want to begin to establish equality, their contribution to this country. That's much more important than being paid off to stay in their place.

[1932]

44. Nobody really believes that all those slaves were doing nothing.

They were working long days and they were creating a lot of wealth for other people. They didn't have to make even 1% of America for there still to have been a very obvious and easily appreciated injustice.

[sandnsea]

46. Preserving the Southern Heritage

There isn't one. African Americans built the south, from working in the fields to actually building the mansions that are symbols of the white plantation owner today. That's what I'm talking about and NO that is not how we look at African American contributions historically. Not there or anywhere that slaves were used to build the infrastructure and the rest of the local economies.

[XemaSab]

39. How should reparations be distributed?

From either companies or individuals?

And who should said reparations go to? :shrug:

[1932]

75. Let's hear some ideas and arguments.

And don't trust anyone who thinks they have the answer to this question before you and they hear all the arguments and ideas.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

93. Very insightful post. nt.

[Betsy Ross]

11. Sure, pay reparations

then kill all affirmative action programs, all educational programs, food programs, etc. Here, we gave you money, now don't expect any more from us. :sarcasm: There has got to be some seedy motivation for this.

[MikeNearMcChord]

12. Actually some conservative writers have endorsed this

as a price for reparations, as well as ending all anti-discrimination laws, in other words, take you 30 pieces of silver, and get at the back of the bus.

[smitty]

13. I live in Wisconsin, a state which outlawed slavery from its

inception. To what extent are the citizens of my state liable for reparations? My ancestors came to America in the circa 1900, thirty-five years after slavery was outlawed in this country. To what extent am I liable for reparations? Most of the people I know would ask these same questions. Who pays, how much, when.

I think that reparations in the form of cash payments is a dead issue, it would never be accepted by the majority of Americans, especially the most recent immigrants.

If there are to be reparations, they should take some other form than cash payments and any form of reparations should be decided by a legislative body, not a court.

[raccoon]

64. If you look at it that way,

even if one lives in a state that allowed slavery,to what extent are they liable for reparations if their ancestors didn't own slaves? And most Southerners didn't.

Probably there were Northerners who were involved in the slave trade even if they never owned slaves themselves.

[Spinoza]

96. If you look at it that way,

to what extent are even descendants of slave owners liable for reparations when they themselves have never owned a slave, or benefited from slave holding. (Most slave owning southern families were wiped out at the end of the Civil War.) Since when are we morally (not to mention legally) responsible in any way for the actions of our great grand-parents? Establishing the concept that somehow we bear responsibility, and must make amends, because of our biological origins--who we are descended from--is a terrible and vicious evil.

[raccoon]

100. Right, Spinoza. nt

[tn-guy]

66. Smitty, you don't understand

At the heart of your comments / questions is the concept of individual responsibility.

Reparations is based on the idea of group-based guilt and group-based victimization. Thus, the date you (or your ancestors) came to this country is immaterial. Also, whether you live in a former slave-holding state or not has no bearing. All that matters is your group identity. Thus, two different immigrants to this country in 2006 will find that one is due reparations and the other is liable for payment solely because they belong to two different ethnic groups.

This is the progressive way. We have to discard outdated ideas like individual worth and uniqueness and focus on group identity. That is the model all truly progressive movements in the past have used and it is the one we should follow.

[Sterling]

84. This really is some dumb shit.

Lets start treating people according to whatever "group" they belong too. You really don't see this is the exact same mind set that created slavery, the Holocaust, etc....?

[tn-guy]

115. I agree

I see this as exactly the same mind set that created slavery, the Holocaust, etc. Thus my tongue in cheek post.

What is frightening to me is that so many here fail to see the whole reparations debate (or any similar attempt to further "group" rights) springs from the same group-identity driven tribalism that caused the evils you cite and many more.

As far as I'm concerned a person is a person, a voter is a voter, a worker is a worker, a student is a student and the idea that we should treat some differently based on 100+ year-old history or ethnicity or religious persuasion, etc. is repugnant. I just wish that more DU'ers would agree. It's rather sad to see people who label themselves "progressive" so anxious to label people and treat them differently based on outdated, repressive categories.

Thank you for standing for individual worth and against group identity politics.

[slackmaster]

139. It would be OK if we could pick and choose which groups to identify with

I'm not an unmarried white male professional in his prime years of productivity; I'm a middle-aged divorce victim who is a potential prostate cancer patient and is being subjected to age discrimination by greedy corporations.

[NashVegas]

94. When I See A Post Like This

My jaw drops so far to the ground I can't help but wonder if this is one of those cases where someone is actually trying to troll DU by depicting its members as so far to the left as to be members of the Communist, not Democratic, party.

[Tannim]

165. tn-guy you are correct! Group identity is important!

I'm all for reparations! Especially to the Irish Group Identity.

My Ancestors were slaves. They were ripped from their lands and transported overseas as "indentured servants." Many were never able to "earn" their freedom and died as slaves. As a group they later experienced segregation. "No Irish Allowed" was very similar to "No Colored" in those days.

Let's make sure ALL slave groups can apply. Otherwise we Irish may have to sue to prevent the law from coming into effect until we are compensated too.

[Sherman A1]

14. But who pays

and from what bag of money? If it is from tax dollars, then the aggrieved parties are in effect paying themselves, as they pay taxes as well. If it is corporations (and I have no love for them) do they not then just raise prices to adjust for the payment and then the aggrieved parties that buy from them simply are paying themselves? Yes, it was wrong and Yes, we are still wandering through the effects of this stain on our nation, but how do you fix it, beyond what has been done?

[grytpype]

15. If you can find a former slave and a former slave owner...

... reparations would be warranted in that case.

[Biernuts]

16. First things First - all of us decended from ancient Israel are

owed reparations from our ancestors' slavery in Africa. After that debt is paid, with interest, then we can move to more recent transgressions.

[acmavm]

17. I'm female and as a representative of my sex I say that you men owe us

all the way back to the days shortly after the primeval ooze.

[Biernuts]

58. Can you please provide a detailed invoice for the services you

provided? We'll have the accountants verify the costs. Of course they will have to be offset by services rendered on the part of the males, housing, food, reproductive assistance, etc. :spank:

[slackmaster]

140. My ex-wife already collected your cut

Go talk to her about it.

[classysassy]

18. Why not reparations?

a stolen nation,free black labor,and no money for the land owners or the free labor.The Jewsd in nazi germany were paid for their stolen good.The Japanese were repaid for their stolen property,why not the reds and blacks,sounds like naked racism to me?.

[jaysunb]

20. BINGO BINGO BINGO !

:toast:

[goclark]

22. That is the BINGO of BINGOS!!

My thoughts exactly!

[Doctor Venmkan]

23. Illogical.

Two very good arguments were made against reparations above -
* Residents of States that NEVER allowed slavery
* Even better - recent immigrants to the country!

And even if you somehow COULD get a list of all the people who's ancestors held slaves...and make them pay the reparations...

...when do we start going after the people with ancestors that did other wrongs? People that were descended from thieves, rapists, murderers, et cetera?

If one "sin of the father" is forever visited upon his sons, why not ALL of them?

[jaysunb]

25. Please see post # 10

"People transferred a lot of wealth from the bottom to the top through slavery. People had their labor (and liberty) stolen from them (or acquired at rock bottom, unjust prices). Where did that wealth go? It didn't disappear."

This is a very complex issue and there are no easy answers, but one must start with truth before there can be a resolution.

BTW, welcome to DU.

[slackmaster]

88. Yeah, and MY family never saw a dime of that ill-gotten wealth

I WANT TO BE REPARATED TOO!

[MrPrax]

30. Thank You...

I was scrolling down and wondering what happened...

The bulk of the comments are not only racist, but really stupid racism. Quite stunning to see such a litany of completely unsupportable points masking naked racism.

[Crunchy Frog]

124. If you see a nakedly racist post

you should alert on it. If the mods agree with your judgement, it will be deleted.

[goclark]

150. Doesn't seem to work when I do it nt

[XemaSab]

167. I don't understand

how being opposed to reparations is racist.

Can you educate me about this?

[Nevernose]

40. Only LIVING Jews were paid, or IMMEDIATE relatives

If you can find a living American Slave or living, immediate descendant, I say we pay them. And, to answer another post of yours, I am not a racist. For all you know, I'm black.

I just happen to believe that affirmative action, free higher education, and true equality under the law are the real solutions, not ridiculous reparations.

[XemaSab]

41. I think only living survivors of internment were paid too n/t

[Nevernose]

42. Yes, not ALL Jews -- they made a distinction...

...between Jews, German Jews, and Jews who had suffered direct results from the concentration camps.

And still many of the ones who had been in camps have received nothing, becuase they can't proove enough

If my grandfather came hwere from Nigeria in 1914, and married the granddaughter of slaves, do I get paid? Do I get the same amount as people who had more slaves as ancestors than I did?

[LostinVA]

56. You're correct -- my friend's grandmother was paid

She was 87... she died the next year. They had owned a VERY profitable business in Washington state. Their business, house, all possessions, everything was taken from then. Then, decades too late, she received a pittance. Her sister had been part owner in the business. She had already died. None of her children could receive the money.

I don't think reparations are viable, unless it is to a living person who was affected by something. However, I definitely think this country needs to do more to help equalize those in this country most affected by the ravages of a bigoted governmental and cultural society: Native Americans, African Americans, and women. Especially NAs. Everyone who has ever seen reservations like Pine Ridge, or on Neheh (sic) Bay, will agree with this.

[XemaSab]

62. OTOH, there's an article in LBN about women in college

and a lot of the California tribes are making money hand over fist with gambling.

I think there are often better ways to lift all boats than government mandated redistribution of wealth.

That being said, African Americans and Native Americans have definitely gotten the short end of the stick.

[MISSDem]

102. The ONLY time I approve of gambling is when Native Americans

are making money off of it. They deserve all of the breaks they can get.

[knight_of_the_star]

43. Bull

First off, the wealth of the plantations that profitted off of slavery was destroyed during the Civil War and Reconstruction partly because so much capital was sunk into maintaining the system and partly because many of them lost everything as a result of the war and the Reconstruction and the devastation of both. Ergo, there is no wealth that resulted from slavery that survived into the present day, there was no plunder or lands or assets siezed that could be returned, and as a result nothing for a financial base for said reparitions. In the case of the Jews who survived the Holocaust, much of their earthly possessions, wealth, and capital were siezed by Nazi Germany illegally and such assets were returned to the survivors and rightly so, it was their property that was being returned to them. The same thing with the Japanese who were interned and had their property taken from them. To be bluntly honest, the slaves by the time of the Civil War had no earthly property that was able to be returned to them and there were efforts made to get the slaves on their feet in the Reconstruction period, it's not like the slaves were freed and left on the road side, although granted after 1876 that was the case.

Secondly, if you ignore all of the above, who is going to pay for the reparations and who will be a beneficiary? Is it going to be based solely on the colour of the skin of the receipiant and in the case of the ones who must pay, because that is incredibly racist. What about those whose ancestors never owned slaves, like in my case where down my mom's side we came over in the 1840s from Sweden into the Minnesota area and down my dad's who came over after WWII from Britain? What about African-Americans who are not descended from slaves but free blacks or immigrated post-Civil War? How about the biggest question of all: proof? Let's say you do it by those who are able to conclusively prove the ancestry of a group of modern African-Americans and descendants of former slave owners? What if the financial situation is that of which the African-Americans are very well off and the slave owner's progeny are working 12 hour days to get by? Do they still have to pay the reparitions because of the sins of the father?

Thirdly, the morality of the proposal at all. It is horribly unfair, undemocratic, and repugnant to openly declare that people living in the here and now who had nothing to do with the crime of slavery should have to be punished for something they had no part in and furthermore have no chance to defend themselves in a fair hearing. That is something akin to punishing the grandson of a murderer who has done nothing wrong simply because the descendants of the victim can somehow claim that he deserves it even though he had nothing to do with the original crime and he is not allowed to stand trial to defend himself and is assumed guilty.

The moral and logical basis of reparitions is set upon a warped, cracked, uneven, and faulty foundation which somehow claims that because a great wrong was inflicted over 150 years ago that the modern descendants of the perpetrators, who were punished in their time by watching the entire society they built be torn apart before their eyes, who have done nothing wrong and had no involvement with the crime in question, must be yet again punished for crimes they did not committ. Following that logic, perhaps we should extend the reparitions to other groups, like requiring Norway, Sweden, and Denmark to pay reparitions to Britain, Ireland, and France for the Viking Age, or England to Spain for the piracy on the Spanish Main and the Armada, or the Hungarians to the Italians for Atilla the Hun invading the Roman Empire, or the Mongolians to the Japanese for the invasion of Japan, or any host of atrocities in history whose repurcussions have long since played out and the original perpetrators are now naught but dust and bones. To assign collective guilt to any one group because of crimes committed in the past that the current members of said group had nothing to do with whatsoever is a thought pattern that falls into the same kind of stereotyping that is the very foundations of the racism that such reparitions are supposed to combat and I for one feel that it would be wrong to support such a proposal whose morality and rationality are both highly suspect and spit in the very face of the principles of the enlightened, modern, rational democracy in which we allegedly live.

[humbled_opinion]

77. Civil Rights are not reparations

Come on righting a wrong commited requires payment in some form. I for one am for Reparations but not ad hoc cash payments instead those with legitamate claims that the direct oppression of their ancestors in slavery led them to a loss of capital that otherwise may have existed for them i.e., black land owners or inheritance that was stolen etc, well they should be given reparations in the form of free education credits, interest free loans to start businesses, interest free housing loans, etc.. thats what I see as fair.

[knight_of_the_star]

92. I don't see it as fair

To be put bluntly, they would be rewarded for what happened to their ancestors, and as far as I'm concerned that spits in the face of the whole idea that people in this country get ahead because of what they themselves are capable of, not because of who they are related to. How would that be different than rewarding a kid with an Ivy League scholarship, in terms of practical effect, whose father was a prominent alumni of said school? They would be rewarded for who they are related to, not based on who they are, and how would you judge who gets what? What if you have a group of descendants of slaves who are very well off and have no need of all the reparations you suggested? Do they still receive them because of what their ancestors suffered? What about people who weren't descended from slaves who are living close to poverty? Does that mean they do not receive such aids that they would, in the here and now, greatly need to get ahead? Using condition of descent is no criteria to determine worth in terms of aid.

Furthermore, you are talking about may-have-beens in relation to something that is long since past. That is an exercise in futility to say the least. Let's say that the Triangle Trade never happened, what are the chances that blacks would even be in North America if they weren't being forced onto slave ships at gunpoint? That said, how many do you think would even have existed by the time period of the Civil War assuming that there would be a substantial number in the country by that time? And for those who were taken and the lands they lost as a result, that still doesn't take into account the fact that it is likely they could still have lost those lands due to death of all progeny without any living heirs, war, famine, disease, the list goes on. Playing what if with history leads to truckloads of possibilities many of which are unforeseeable or unexpected. And on top of that, where would be your proof of said lost lands and capital? And how could they even have a claim to such lands that were lost to them hundreds of years ago? Would you ignore victims of suffering now who live in those same lands because you want reparations? What about the funding to be allocated for that? The government wasn't their source of oppression, so why would the government be paying for something it didn't even do?

"Civil Rights are not reparations"

In that statement you demonstrated your ignorance of the history of the Reconstruction period and the great lengths the Republican (yes, Republican although those Republicans wouldn't recognize the modern GOP) Congress went to so that the free blacks could stand on their own two feet, such as the military occupation of the South to protect their Civil Rights and to ensure the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, the Ku Klux Klan Act, Freedman's Bureau, the allotting of farm land to rural freed slaves, the construction of schools for blacks and federal subsidizing of said schools, black universities, it wasn't as if nothing was done after Emancipation, huge strides were made and while it is regrettable that the advances of the Reconstruction were reversed by the creation of a segregated society, it displays considerable ignorance to say that the descendants of slaves deserve reparations because nothing was done for them in the past.

[humbled_opinion]

99. You speak as if you are a social conservative...e.o.m.

[knight_of_the_star]

101. Nice try

You can't directly attack the argument so you attack me instead. Nice try, but your charge is groundless, considering I am an out of the closet pagan who supports things like legalization of pot, gay marriage, and total seperation of church and state, your attempted ad hominem is groundless. If you are going to have a discussion about the issues, then stick to the issues, but if you think that you are going to come out on top by attempting to attack with with baseless accusations you truly expose the weaknesses of your position.

[semillama]

107. Nice smackdown

I always like seeing an overwhelming wave of logic smash down a weak beachhouse of an argument.

For the record, I'm of the same mind as you on the issue of reparations, and I'm also a social progressive.

[knight_of_the_star]

117. Thank you

I'm surprised that there would be people on this board who would think arguing like Republicans would actually fly.

[humbled_opinion]

147. In direct attack of the argument then......

My point is your statement doesn't take into consideration that Civil Rights took a long time to be put in effect and during that time all African Americans were not given the same opportunities as White America was. Now granted Civil Rights was the first step in correcting the problems and to some degree that has worked for this generation and future generations. However, you must admit that there still are large pockets of underprivileged which have been directly caused by failures in Civil Rights policy and historical slavery. If you can admit that much then, I think my point is right on that someone owes this social underclass, caused by Slavery and the slow inception of Civil Rights, something. If you must assign blame i.e., in who would pay then we must look at who gained from Slavery and the slow inception of Civil Rights... Well that leaves wealthy white land owners, Corporations that have roots in slave labor, ignorant white politicians, etc so in closing my argument is that lost opportunities are a direct correlation to slavery.

[knight_of_the_star]

162. Now that you are dealing with the logic

"Well that leaves wealthy white land owners, Corporations that have roots in slave labor, ignorant white politicians, etc so in closing my argument is that lost opportunities are a direct correlation to slavery."

I would like to see you prove that is true, considering you are, again, ignoring the fact that the entire plantation system and all the capital in it that existed in the Antebellum period was utterly wiped out. Granted, many of the free slaves were kept in an economically inferior position, but that also ignores the fact that blacks weren't the only ones who were economically oppressed in the US, or does every group that has suffered from economic oppression get reparations as well?

Yet again you also ignored the evidence I put forth that the federal government DID do everything it possibly could in the period just after the Civil War until 1876 to serve as giving the freed slaves a leg up and a chance to get into society on their own two feet. The argument for reparations only has credence so long as you ignore the Reconstruction and the fact that blacks WERE given exactly what you are proposing way back in 1865.

"However, you must admit that there still are large pockets of underprivileged which have been directly caused by failures in Civil Rights policy and historical slavery."

False causation, you can't prove that because of those two factors alone that you have large pockets of underpriviledged in society. That ignores other more likely suspects, such as the economic forces that incidentally also created the underclass that is referred to as white trash or rednecks.

"I think my point is right on that someone owes this social underclass, caused by Slavery and the slow inception of Civil Rights, something."

Again that assumes that the government is solely responsible for the oppression that resulted from slavery, that there was no effort made following the Civil War, and ignores the fact that there are groups in this country just as poorly off, if not worse off, that you are completely ignoring. You have only shown time and time again that your argument can stand up only when you leave out relevant evidence that would prove to the contrary or make assertions for which you have offered no proof. If you can offer convincing and relevant evidence that slavery and the delay of Civil Rights is the sole reason or the most compelling and relevant reason for black poverty in America I will gladly reconsider my position, but based on what I know there is no such evidence that can make such an assertion seriously.

[XemaSab]

168. Not to sound like a corporatist

But if you soak all the corporations for all they're worth, millions of people will be out of work and the stock market will crash and this country, as a whole, will be WAY worse off than it is today.

[LoZoccolo]

164. That is a cowardly way out of an argument.

I don't think we'll see a serious discussion of this issue until things like that disappear.

See you in November.

[L A Woman]

156. i agree in theory

but far too much time has passed. it will NEVER happen.

[knight_of_the_star]

163. Not to mention

That it would very rapidly re-ignite the racism that people have worked so long and hard to bury.

[rayofreason]

106. Well said!!

[raccoon]

65. For one thing, nobody alive now was a slave. nt

[northzax]

82. well, honestly

because those reparations were paid to people who were still alive.

[BlueStateModerate]

141. Not these people

I hate to burst your bubble, but slavery hasn't existed for nearly 150 years. Most of the people who were slaves are dead now. ;-)

Many African-Americans alive today didn't even live through the Jim Crow era. In 1870, reparations <b>might</b> have been an okay idea. Today, they just don't make any sense - they're overtly racist, are extremely expensive, and reward/punish people based upon actions over which they had no control.

Please, do tell: where is the justification for reparations in the Constituion?

[Zynx]

161. The Civil War, the worst war in America's history, is the price of slavery

The ills of slavery eventually culminated in the Civil War and this nation paid its price.

[columbusdem]

21. Affirmative action is still the best form of reparations

Affirmative action is still the best form of reparations because it compensates for the mistreatment of the several previous generations of African-Americans by empowering several future generations of African-Americans to achieve better lives for themselves and their posterity rather than allowing only the CURRENT generation of African-Americans to cash in on the hell their ancestors went through. Also, since interracial relations have been in this country since its start, this would probably require a litmus test for what constitutes an African-American. Must you be at least half-black, one-quarter, one-eighth, one-sixteenth, what? Or do you pro-rate it according to percentage of "blackness", whatever that may be? Affirmative action is better because it empowers, rather than just compensate.

[Doctor Venmkan]

24. Two more excellent points.

[Odin2005]

26. People are not responsible for the sins of thier ancestors.

Besides, slavery existed in most complex societies intill less then 200 years ago, Should I have to pay reparations for my viking ancestors enslaving the English and Irish? Shoukd the Italians have to pay reparations to everyone around the Mediterranean and Western Europe for all the people the Romans enslaved? I don't beleive in collective guilt, it belongs in the same catagory of BS as the concept of Original Sin.

[Nevernose]

28. I blame the French

Norman England -- In 1102 a national ecclesiastical council, held at Westminster, under Archbishop of Canterbury, Saint Anselm, prohibited the slave trade. They decreed: 'Let no one hereafter presume to engage in that nefarious trade in which hitherto in England men were usually sold like brute animals.' (Butler's Lives-Anselm)

I have an Anglo-Saxon last name; can I sue the French?

Why is a hundred and fifty years ago so much worse than nine hundred years ago? If one were to talk about reparations for the hundred years of oppression which followed the Civil War, which occurred in every state in the union, one would have a much more valid argument for reparations.

[lynne]

27. I can't figure out how it could be done fairly -

- you would need to exclude whites who immigrated here after the CW - exclude descendants of families who never owned slaves. Descendant's of free blacks and blacks that immigrated after the CW would need to be excluded from receiving reparations, too.

If you are descended from slaves on your mother's side and free black's on your dad's side - do you only get 1/2 as much? What if you're from KY - as my husband is - and one side of his family was union and the other confederate - does he only pay 1/2 as much? What about black slave owners - yes, there were some - should they pay double (because, of all people, they should have known better) or only half?? And what about those who never owned slaves but would rent them from other slave owners? That went on all the time. Does the family of the owner AND the renter pay? Or do they split the difference?

Does it matter how many generations removed your slave owning ancestor was? If it was your Great-Great Grandfather do you pay one price but get a reduction if it was only your Great X 4 Grandfather? Same thing goes for receiving reparations - do you decrease the debt based on the number of generations involved? If a family was in servitude for 6 generations, shouldn't they receive more than a family that was only in servitude for 2 generations? And, what if your ancestors only owned slaves BEFORE the American revolution? Should you pay that reparation or should the British? THERE'S A PLAN . . . let's look to the English for reparations as they got the ball rolling. Yet - I'm pretty sure they took the concept from the Dutch.

My point is that it is absolutely impossible to have true and fair reparations. It is a divisive idea and will only lead to further racial discontent rather than resolve any potential yet unknown wrong that my ancestor may have possibly done to your ancestor 150 years ago - yet then again, maybe my ancestor wasn't involved with any slaves after all.

[Nevernose]

29. And what about:

A person with one ancestor who owned slaves and another who didn't? Or a person with ancestors who fought for the North in the Civil War? What about a person with one great-great grandfather who fought for the North, and one who fought for the South? What if some of a person's ancestors came here during the period of slavery yet never owned slaves, and some of their ancestors came here after slavery was ended at all?

You're right -- we could play this game all day long.

[XemaSab]

35. What about someone who is descended from both slaves AND slaveowners?

Many African-Americans have white slaveowner blood.

[slackmaster]

89. That would cover pretty much everyone named Washington or Jefferson

They should reparate themselves.

[MrPrax]

32. What?

By this same reasoning then, who in the US would be responsible for the national debt?

Does someone who became a citizen during the Clinton years of restraint pay the same as someone who voted for Reagan? What about people living in states that get jackshit in the way of porkbarrel? Should they pay less taxes towards the debt than say the folks living down in Fairfax?

Every citizen assumes the benefits and LIABILITIES of the Federal Authority of that country; just like any contract? If you buy a business, house or stock, you assume certain liabilities as well.

Why propose a 'rule change' on this issue?

[Nevernose]

38. There's a 2 year statue of limitations on civil matters

Unless, of course, you want to "change the rules."

And we're not talking about Carter or Reagan -- we're talking about Polk and Fillmore and Lincoln.

[MrPrax]

97. Brilliant!!

So since slavery was more than two years ago, then fuck'em...because to provide entitlement or reparations to this group MEANS they might get ahead and they might be more integrated into the larger American dream...

Listen up..

Except for the few emigre communities, every African-American YOU SEE in America is NOT in America because:

They ended up at Ellis Island with a nickel and a dream
They were not chased out by the British as religious dissentors
They were not forced off the land due to a war with the Spanish
They were not chased away by racists in the Ukraine
They were not greedy miners looking for gold
They were not sojourners willing to pay exorbitant fees to 'snakesheads' for passage to America
They were not brought over as mercenaries to fight the enemy
They were not mobsters and friends of dictators that ended up on the losing end of a popular struggle
They didn't have any farms that were plagued by crop failure so they had to leave
etc...etc...ETC

The African-American in America was hunted down, chained, placed in the bottom of ships and SOLD as cattle in American cities...

They are not LIKE any other group--so applying the SAME rules to a group that is NOT LIKE anyone else is really only an excuse to not recognize this single verifiable fact. They are a peope who have NO history, NO cultural memory of a 'time before', they are not people that can fly flags when their world cup team wins, they are not a people that can send their children off for 'grand trips' to see how their people live in the 'old country', they are people that can't have their 'family trees' extend any further than a fucking DOCK in Baltimore!!

Are you getting it or are you still insisting that they are all American, all the time...so fuck them?

[MarkR1717]

134. "The African ..was hunted down" ......

by whom?

Were non African people ever slaves in America?

[XemaSab]

170. I think African Americans have every right to be PISSED

They have been totally screwed over by a racist system. But sitting here on the white side of things, my ancestors didn't come here with crap either. You think fleeing the potato famine is a load of chuckles?

I think everything that educates and empowers the Black man should be done... but for that matter, why stop at educating and empwering just the Black man? Why not educate and empower everyone so we can ALL get ahead?

[Nevernose]

31. Something that would work better than reparations OR affirmative action:

Giving everybody in America -- readless of race, ethnicity, age, sex, sexual orientation, or anything else -- free college tuition at all state schools (with an anonyomus application process -- no names, just social security numbers).

I realize that there is a problem with racial discrimination in admissions NOW, but I believe an even bigger problem is lack of funding for poor people (who are more likely to be minorities).

A generation of affirmative action has certainly helped, but I believe that a generation of free education would be the most effective tool of all in eliminating both racism and poverty in this country.

Add on Universal Health Care, increased Social Security benefits for the elderly & the disabled, and daycare for poor mothers, and we would live in a virtual utopia ... America as the envy of every nation afterwards for ten thousand years.

[wickerwoman]

50. That's a good start,

but I think by university, it's pretty much too late.

I used to teach in a program to help students from underpriviledged backgrounds make the transition to college. These kids busted their asses but they spent the first two years of university basically finishing high school. They were the top of their classes in high school but they were so appallingly unprepared for what they were being asked to do in their non-remedial classes. And they *had* to finish in four years because that's when their scholarships ran out.

The only way to get anything like equality is to nationalize the education system. School districts should absolutely not be funded based on property taxes and held hostage by yearly bonds going to a vote before the general public. We should take the roughly 1 trillion estimated to the be the contribution of slave labor to the U.S. economy and pour it into school districts starting from the poorest and working up. Give 100 million each to the 10,000 poorest performing school districts and see what happens in a generation.

[XemaSab]

172. If I could K&R a single post from this thread

It would be this one.

I think changing the funding of school districts would go a VERY long way towards equalizing educational opportunities in this country.

[JNelson6563]

33. Good! Now maybe anti-war rallies

can focus on protesting the war.

Julie

[Sgent]

34. There is at least a resonable argument

that the costs of the civil war more than eliminated any gains (on both sides) of the slave trade/labor.

That being said, I think we should focus on where we go from here. I would think we should focus on equality of opportunity, universal health care, etc.

Pitting poor whites against blacks serves no one. Not to mention that a lot of people here today had nothing to do with slavery (huge immigrant populations of Irish, Russian, South American, Italian, etc.)

[XemaSab]

37. I think monetary reparations are a total nonstarter

My family came to this country from Ireland, Germany, and Sweden starting in the 1880's, and we settled in Northern states. Why should I pay? Though I am white, my ancestors didn't do a thing.

Even if my ancestors DID commit the crime of slavery, upon how many generations will guilt be carried? And upon how many generations will victimhood be carried?

We don't punish the modern Germans because their parents and grandparents were Nazis.

My understanding of the pre-war wealth of the south is that though many modern companies DID profit from slavery, much of the wealth of the plantation owners (the direct perpetrators) was lost after the war to the north. Should modern companies go bankrupt through reparations? Should individuals have to give up their family wealth if part of it came from a business that was legal at the time?

And how should reparations go to the victims? If you cut every black person in the country a check for, say, $30,000, does that make up for a lifetime of racism and poverty? It's a big check, but it's not big enough for poor blacks to really get anywhere. A check that size could pay for college for one of the kids, but it would probably go to put food on the table, or pay rent, and after a year or two the family would be back at square one. And should wealthy blacks also get a fat check? What about people who are only partly black, but are still suffering the effects of generational poverty?

I think ultimately writing out a big check to every person whose ancestors were slaves will do almost nothing for the descendants of the victims and will anger and divide a lot of non-blacks.

The fair thing to do would be to provide free or greatly reduced college tuition to kids of every ethnicity who have the grades for college.

[lynne]

45. That's another thing -

- you talk about the "crime" of slavery. Like it or not - slavery was not a crime prior to the CW. While we certainly know it was a moral crime regardless of the law - in the eyes of the law it was legal.

So, generations later, descendants are to be penalized for our ancestor's doing something 150 years ago that was legal when they did it? Now, that opens a whole new can of worms . . . especially for our great-great-grandchildren.

[BushOut06]

47. Maybe we should haul Great Britian before the World Court

After all, slavery started in North America while we were still under British rule. It didn't just suddenly start in 1776.

[northzax]

83. even better

it started in North America under SPANISH rule. Even in Virginia under Spanish rule. I want a piece of those fuckers, let me tell you.

[Ravenseye]

68. Exactly my thoughts, with an addition

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

Reparations will get nowhere. You're exactly right. Cash in hand will be abused by many? Heck I know if I got a 30k check I'd put it towards debts but it wouldn't 'lift' me anyhwere.

Reparations need to come in the form of increased federal funding to not only education, but business development. Inner city schools, job training and placement, small business loans, organizations that encourage african american businesses, and either higher education grants or zero interest loans. Both education and small business need to be encouraged.

[slackmaster]

48. Catholics screwed my ancestors out of land in Germany

When do I get my cut?

[OneBlueSky]

49. sorry, but this will never ever fly . . . not 1 chance in 10,000 . . . n/t

.

[readmoreoften]

52. This I agree with.

Katrina Browne, the white Episcopalian filmmaker, is finishing a documentary about her ancestors, the DeWolfs of Bristol, R.I., the biggest slave-trading family in U.S. history. She screened it for Episcopal Church officials at the June convention.

"Traces of the Trade: A Story From the Deep North," details how the economies of the Northeast and the nation as a whole depended on slaves.

"A lot of white people think they know everything there is to know about slavery — we all agree it was wrong and that's enough," Browne said. "But this was the foundation of our country, not some Southern anomaly. We all inherit responsibility."

She says neither whites nor blacks will heal from slavery until formal hearings expose the full history of slavery and its effects — an effort similar to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission after apartheid collapsed.

[Irreverend IX]

53. Kinda OT, but as far as Native American reparations go...

One interesting suggestion I've heard is to legalize cannabis and hemp and give reservations grants to start hemp farms. They would have a massively profitable crop and help the environment as well by reducing Americans' reliance on nylon, wood pulp paper and other products.

[BrentWill4U]

54. I think the debt was paid..

By about 600k Americans which was about 3 percent of the population. Just for some comparison, if we lost 3 percent of our population today, that would mean 9 million Americans would be dead.

[XemaSab]

63. That's the argument being made by many on FR

Many of the people who were living in the North lost family members fighting the war, and their families have already made their sacrifice.

[BrentWill4U]

71. My Argument is not that certain families already paid the debt...

But that this nation as a whole has paid it, in full...

Abraham Lincoln

"The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

[XemaSab]

73. Interesting quote

And a late welcome to DU! :hi:

[joe_sixpack]

155. Has there ever been a President who wrote as eloquently and

as truthfully as Lincoln? He must have been an awesome lawyer.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Pff.

1. Half of that 600,000 was Confederate troops, fighting to protect slavery. Fuck 'em.

2. Of the other half, very few gave a shit about helping African Americans.

3. Ending slavery isn't reparations.

[raccoon]

91. Half of that 600,000 was Confederate troops who had been drafted.

Also, the Confederates were fighting because they had been invaded.

The vast majority of Southerners in the antebellum South didn't own slaves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Yeah, and plenty of Germans were drafted too.

But I wouldn't credit them with liberating the concentration camps.

[BrentWill4U]

135. Of course not...

They fought against it. Totally different story concerning the US army. I would say the giving of ones life for a cause, even if you do not know the full meaning of the cause and even if you joined simply to save the union is the ultimate payment for a sin.

[BrentWill4U]

136. Actually

258,000 were Southern. 360,00 were Nothern.

[BrentWill4U]

137. I can't say it better then Abe Said in his Second Inaugural Address..

Abraham Lincoln

"The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

[johnfunk]

57. How to anger stealth-racist Confederate apologists:

... say you support reparations -- and add these principles:

1) Reparations for slavery should be paid by the STATES, not by the federal government;
2) Amount each state paid should be based on the number of slaves that were forced to live in each state;
3) TRIPLE DAMAGES for states that were members of the treasonous Confederacy and satrted a war in part to preserve the barbaric practice of slavery.

Y'know, with stipulations like that, I could support the whole idea!

[Peeves]

79. So much for Lincoln's "With Malice Toward NONE" ...

"Triple Damages" sounds like a way to perpetuate racial tensions for a long time to come. :-|

[johnfunk]

133. rinsd beat me to it, but yeah, "Malice toward none" went unheeded...

... and frankly, that malice was coming from the former Confederate states. make 'em pay for their racism and continued worship of a "geritage" of treason, classism and hate.

[Peeves]

154. Where does it end?

This perpetuation will continue ... Where is Rodney King when we need him? "Can we all just get along?"

[rinsd]

98. Yeah because the Reconstruction went so swimmingly the first time....

...Radical Republicans in their zeal to punish the South helped foster the environment which allowed Jim Crow and other entities to gain power indeed a stranglehold much like the Treay of Versailles helped create the conditions for Nazi Germany. Why do you think the South was solidly Democratic until the Dixiecrats?

Unforeseen consequences and all that jazz.......

[Zynx]

159. The Civil War was the price of slavery.

600,000 men died and 400,000 more were wounded for our national shame. That's enough.

[sendero]

59. I find it puzzling..

... that in a time of massive accumulated Federal debt along with a large and persistent annual deficit that anyone would actually be talking about a new entitlement as though it has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening.

Because it doesn't, there is no effing money.

[bleedingheart]

60. retribution creates even more injustice

the Civil War is over and the Reconstruction was a Failure...

The Failure to Reconstruct the South is a key reason in why there is a lot of hatred even today.

If reparations were to be approved, it would mean robbing Peter to pay Paul, because it would end up robbing other programs of money...and what programs would they rob...they would rob affirmative action programs, programs to feed the poor (of all colors) and it would rob education...

Also..reparations would fuel racial problems that exist currently...there are poor white folks that are still using minorities as scapegoats for their own mistakes...the payment of reparations would just add fuel to that fire....I truly believe that you would see an increase in violence against miniorities if it happened....

[acmavm]

61. I didn't own a slave. My family were never slave owners.

I owe nothing.

And even if some can be convinced that we should pay reparations to anyone, find someone who was a slave, pay them.

Everyone's been someone's slave at one time or another.

[1932]

76. Yet you still suffer by living in a society with wealth polarized by race

So it's in your interest, unless you own a a pay day lender or you're a slum lord, to remedy the wealth polarization.

[acmavm]

80. Get real. I'm a white female barely making enough money to

get by, and not in style either.

This ain't gonna fly.

edit: I support a family as well as myself. With no help, no food stamps, no medicaid or medicare (I have to buy my insurance just like everyone else).

I don't owe anybody but my creditors anything.

[Megahurtz]

123. I'm with you acmavm!

And my Grandparents immigrated from Yugoslavia to the U.S.
long after the slave era
and they had nothing to do with slavery whatsover!!!

They were escaping from their own form of slavery!

You bet this 'aint gonna fly!

[FujiZ1]

127. Count me in too.

My ancestors got here after slavery was abolished, and even if they hadn't I would still think this is ridiculous.

[1932]

132. if it were harder to exploit racial minorities, it would be harder to

exploit women like you.

If the working class is more powerful, the working class is more powerful.

If you don't get it, let me know. I'll explain it to you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Your country was responsible for slavery.

You're country owes something.

[acmavm]

90. It owes EVERYBODY the opportunity to find a life of

life, liberty, and property. The pursuit of happiness is irrelevant.

We should always help those amongst us who are most in need of help.

I was serious earlier when I wrote that if we're paying everyone who was 'wronged' throughout history, men owe us women BIG TIME. Clear up unto this day.

Don't tar everybody with that brush. I will repeat, other than my creditors, I owe nobody nothing.

[slackmaster]

111. Yeah, like women have never given men any grief

:eyes:

[acmavm]

116. Comparitively speaking, not enough to make it even or worth it.

[slackmaster]

118. Obviously you've never been married to one

:argh:

[acmavm]

120. You're wrong there.

You guys give yourselves way too much credit.

[Megahurtz]

122. And like men have never given women any grief.

So there.

See how fucking stupid it all looks?

[slackmaster]

126. It certainly does

Whenever someone claims they are owed reparations by anyone because of things that other people did it always sounds lame.

[Megahurtz]

169. That's for sure! n/t

[slackmaster]

110. My country didn't send people deep into Africa to round people up

My country didn't haul anyone off to a slave market in Senagal to be sold to the highest bidder.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. No, but it looked the other way.

And it benefitted from other people doing so.

[BrentWill4U]

153. By that logic...

Aren't Africans Americans just going to be paying themselves, partly. I mean, they are Americans, aren't they?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

166. Yes, partly.

They're paying taxes, they'd be contributing just as much to reparations as you.

[RCinBrooklyn]

69. 3/5 of a dollar for you. 3/5 of a dollar for you. 3/5 of a dollar for you.

[shrike]

72. Wonder what African-American DUers think of this

Anyone want to weigh in? I'm curious.

[goclark]

151. I weighed in with BINGO! BINGO!

up thread.


Thank everyone that is trying to be CIVIL in this debate, we can go far as Democrats if we are willing to listen to both sides.

[midnight]

74. A number of cities and states to.....

approve measures that force businesses to publicize theri historical ties to slavery. This is a different twost towards reparations.

[Prisonerohio]

78. Don't you see its like opening a Pandora's box.

America has a long sorted history of screwing people over. Once we start handing out money or tax breaks to groups for past travesties it will never stop. When I pay more taxes etc based on the color of my skin doesn't it amount to tax on the colour of my skin. I think a better choice would be to put more money in to social programs such as childcare, urban redevelopment and so on. Keep afirmative action. This would help all the disadvantaged. This is exactly what the current administration is not doing.

[patcox2]

81. I refuse to believe bullshit issues just happen to come up before election

Seriously. Every goddamn election year there's some BS crap like school prayer, in god we trust, slavery reparations, some bullshit meaningless issue that the conservatives can use to lever their base.

Ignore this total crap.

The issues are war, wages, jobs, social security, healthcare.

Not homosexuals, prayers, slaves, flag burning, or anything else.

Can't anyone see that its the republicans hyping these fake issues, just like its the republicans hyping Hillary for president?

Briar patch issues, thats the perfect name for them, because they are tangled and sticky.

[Sterling]

85. Didn't over half a million Americans already die over this?

A lot of white people fought very hard to reverse the injustice of slavery. Why can't e just work on making todays society better for all and leave the race war behind us.

[rayofreason]

109. "Fondly..

...do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."

Indeed.

[Retired AF Dem]

129. Ummm

the half million mark included both sides. Might want to rephrase that.

[BrentWill4U]

138. It was still..

Punishment for "sin", In old Abe's way looking at it. In other words, the nation, as a whole, still paid a HUGE price for ending slavery rather or not the individual solider was fighting for it or not.

[MsKandice01]

103. As a black woman...

I'm not a big fan of the whole reparations idea, at least not monetary reparations. The political firestorm would be horrendous, the logistics would be extremely messy, and I just can't imagine the constant scrutiny that we as Black people would receive on what we do with the money. I can't imagine the looks I would get just going into my local electronics store to buy a new TV or a computer with my own hard-earned money and having the person behind me in line thinking to themselves, "I'll bet you she's using my tax dollars to buy that." I think the consequences would be very ugly and there's a good chance that the strides we've made over the last 50 years when it comes to race relations would go right down the toilet.

That's just my own humble opinion though.

[slackmaster]

105. Think of the potential for marketing campaigns

I'll bet the DMA is behind the whole idea.

[shrike]

108. Thanks for your input

As I said in my post above, I've been wondering what black DUers would think of this. And unfortunately, that's exactly what people would think if you went in to buy a TV or VCR with your own hard-earned money . . .

[eek MD]

112. a few thoughts...

I am against the monetary reparations idea, but I have to say that I find quite a few of the comments about WHY people are against them on here to be disturbing. Simply because your family lived in the north, fought in the civil war for the union, etc..does NOT mean that you haven't benefitted off the backs of slave labor.

I believe that we can never "pay off" the harm that slavery has done. How much money is the life of one's ancestor worth? It's insulting to put a dollar amount on something like that. Here are just a few of the problems with reparations.

1)Biracial people - There has been much racial mixing over the last hundred years. Will these people be both taxed and paid?...

2)Other minorities - America has repressed just about everyone other than white land-owning males at some time in our history. Everyone from Women, to Native Americans, to African Americans, to Modern day Mexican Immigrants. Is it economically possible to give 70-80% of the US population reparations?

3)Wealthy African Americans - Would reparations be paid to people who already have ungodly amounts of money? Shaquille O'neal, Snoop Dogg, P.Diddy Combs, Oprah, Samuel L Jackson, etc? I'm not discounting any hardships that their ancestors may have gone through, but if the goal of reparations is to help "lift up" the african american community, what is served by giving reparations to those who have already made it to a life of extreme luxury?

4) What comes afterward - After a reparation payout, is it all "water under the bridge?" Somehow i doubt that whatever pittance would be paid out would suddenly "level the playing field" in this country.

5) Race relations - With as contentious a climate as race relations already are in this country, I can see something such as reparations causing violence on a massive scale in this country. What good is getting reparations if you're going to be killed by a mob of angry white rednecks over it?

6) Recent immigrants - If we'd be giving reparations based solely on skin color, we would also be giving reparations to people who came over in recent years. These people did not have ancestors who endured the pain that other African American people's ancestors have endured.

I could go on, but I think you get the point I'm making. No matter how much money we pay out, it will never be enough to make up for the harm which slavery has caused. All we can do as a society is expand affirmative action programs to allow generations of families affected by slavery the chance to catch up with the rest of us, and apologize to the african american community for the terrible harm which has been done. I can say, this certainly should be a higher priority for congress than "flag burning amendments", and "sanctity of marriage" issues.

[Placebo]

113. This issue might actually unite Americans for once!

Because I know no one, liberal or conservative, who supports slave reparations.

The only person I've ever come across who favoured them was a Sociology professor.

[cobalt1999]

119. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...

let no democrat come out in favor of this before the elections! (or ever for that matter).

This would kill us ten times as quickly as any gay marriage issue.

Rove must be licking his lips in anticipation right now. Throwing it out there and waiting for some democrat to take the bait.

[Megahurtz]

121. Fuck That!!!

:thumbsdown: I'm not paying for something that was done long before I or anyone else was born!

Bullshit!!!

Then more innocent and uninvolved people will suffer!

[lanlady]

128. my people, the Irish

were starved to death in the 19th century by English landowners and their lackeys. It was a brutal form of ethnic cleansing. Whether this was a better or worse existence than slavery I cannot say. But do I expect present-day British to make reparations to me or my family? No, that would be ludicrous. They are not responsible for the actions of their great-great-great grandparents. Let us confront the past honestly, learn from our mistakes, reject racial anomisity, and vow to build a better future. That is the best way to honor those who suffered past indignities.

[OzarkDem]

130. This is a GOP wedge issue

Personally, I usually ignore them.

[fujiyama]

131. Nonstarter, nonsensensical, nonissue

I always thought of "reperations" as a silly academic exercise. It really makes little sense.

My parents came to this country 27 years ago. They, nor myself were responsible for slavery.

Slavery was one of the most terrible institutions put in place. It has destroyed the history of millions. It's impossible for many African Americans to go back that many generations because poor records were kept.

I side with those that favor more money for urban development, education, universal healthcare, etc.

[L A Woman]

157. Nonsense was the word that came to my mind, too

If I could go back in time and give reparations to people who were actually slaves, I would. But it's utter nonsense to even have the debate at this point. A complete waste of time. It is simply never going to happen. Never. We should be discussing real issues.

[tdiscuss]

142. What about the white slaves in America during the same time period?

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html

And what about the blacks in the U.S. and Africa who sold other blacks into slavery back then?

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

Should we get reparations from descendants of doctors from the 19th century for people who died because the doctors didn't know how to cure them? Or from car manufacturers from the early 1900s because people died in car accidents because the cars didn't have airbags, or seat belts, or radial tires? Times change, conditions improve, people learn. Reparations are not an answer to something that happened over 100 years ago and more.

[humbled_opinion]

148. Your post shows your ignorance

[mikelgb]

143. Let's just pay them off...

then we can go back to calling them ni****s and stringin' em up! :sarcasm:

Seriously though, how do you repay the enormous wrong of slavery?

What about the Japanese? Did we ever do reparations for putting them in camps?


My best idea is a tax credit of some sort if they really want to do this.

[BrentWill4U]

152. We will pay the Japanese, when..

When THEY pay us for Bataan Death March and THEY pay China for the Rape of Nanking. Or they could at least acknowledge it happened.

[Biernuts]

171. Don't really have a beef about putting Japanese detainees into camps

for the duration of WWII. But, like chaplains and other non-combatants, civilians are detainees, not POWs.

It's the putting the US citizens of Japanese Ancestory into camps that pisses me off. Those US citizens imprisoned by their government were compensated if still around. The payment was made only to those put in camps, not to later decendents.

[XemaSab]

174. Google:

Manzanar, Tule Lake, Poston, Gila River, Minidoka, Rohwer, Heart Mountain, Topaz, Amache, and Jerome.

[rolleitreks]

144. Well, I ain't gonna pay. n/t

[Courtesy Flush]

145. But who gets paid?

Of course, African Americans get paid under reparations. But what about their grandchildren who haven't been born yet? Fifty years from now they'll be wondering why they didn't get their share. And what about African Americans who will be born a hundred years from now? How long should this extend? And at what cost?

A better plan would be to spend the same money to try to remedy the problems that racism has caused. Giving someone a check will not right any wrongs.

[Courtesy Flush]

146. What would the numbers look like

According to Wikipedia there are 39.9 million African Americans in this country. Let's say you offer each one an insulting $10,000 (which will not raise anyone's standard of living, or erase the scars of racism).

You're talking about $399 billion dollars, and nobody really benefits.

Recipients will feel they were bought off cheaply, and the taxpayers would feel they've been bilked excessively.

Who wins here?

Put the money into education (targeted at predominantly Black schools), and get some real benefits from it.

[goclark]

149. This is Progress at DU

I recall going into royal battles about this issue at DU.

As an African American,I was extremely hurt and almost left DU because no one seemed to care about the tone of the discussion. No one stepped in to keep people from saying very nasty things about my people.

Maybe this thread has not been invaded, I hope not.

I can well appreciate hearing both sides of the issue, just be sensitive to the background and racial mix of the Forum.

Thank you

[Biernuts]

173. There is plenty of blame to go around for slavery. Those in

Africa (including other Africans) who conquered, captured and sold slaves. Slave ship captains and crews, slave traders in the Americas, England for allowing slavery in her colonies; and, the leaders of the New United States who compromised on the self-evident truths contained in the Declaration of Independence and took 74 years from the adoption of the Constitution to the start of the bloodiest war in our history.

Admitted any slave anywhere got the shit end of the stick from Mississipi to Moses' Mother building pyramids in Egypt. But those to blame for slavery have all departed this world. Reparations are logistically improbable. Shall the white resident of New York, who lost a half-dozen ancestors in the Civil War pay while the African whose ancestors immigrated in 1935 be paid - even if his great great grandfather was a slave trader in Africa? Shall we address only African slavery and ignore indentured servants? Shall we have reparations for nations enslaved by others when those enslaved are no longer around? Realistically, we cannot - and the interest alone from 2000 - 5000 years ago would dwarf the world's entire budget.

What we can do is address issues of the day and decide them in accordance with today's facts and today's law.

[goclark]

177. The problem is the laws today are designed by Bush

and HIS Supreme Court.

So in many ways we are back to the 1840's as far as I'm concerned.

[CanonRay]

158. My ancestors were Roman slaves in Sicily, what to I get?

...and do I get it from Italy?

[Zynx]

160. The Civil War was a steep enough price paid by this country.

We suffered as a country for over 100 years with the aftermath of the Civil War, not to mention the incredible loss of life.

[Spider Jerusalem]

175. How anyone can support something based on the notion of collective guilt..

is really beyond me. The sins of the father, visited upon the son, yea, unto the seventh generation...very Biblical.

Slavery ended over 140 years ago. No-one alive today was ever a slave; no-one alive today ever owned slaves. To suggest that there's any basis for reparations, at this late date, is ridiculous.

[Exiled in America]

176. This has been a fascinating thread on a terribly complicated issue

Thanks for the read. I don't have anything to add. I am not well versed enough on the subject to give an informed opinion, and I try not to comment on things unless I am. :)