Al-Qaeda video shows mutilated bodies of US soldiers

[Caoimhe]

PARIS (AFP) - The Iraqi branch of Al-Qaeda put on the Internet a video showing the mutilated bodies of two US soldiers kidnapped in June and executed to "avenge" an Iraqi woman raped near Mahmudiyah south of Baghdad.

<snip>

"Praise God, they captured two soldiers from the same division as this vile crusader. Here are the remains ... to rejoice the hearts of the faithful," the statement said.

<snip>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060711/wl_mideast_afp/iraqusunresthostages

and the cycle of violence continues...

[Avalux]

1. Bushco loves reports like this.

Whip up that hatred and fear; keep everyone in a state of hysteria. x(

That's about the only comment I have; the futility of the whole mess is numbing.

[Tight_rope]

63. This is war...what else should he expect?

"FLOWERS" :shrug:

[goforit]

64. Rove is back. His PR propaganda reigns in.... SHOCK & AWE!

[saigon68]

78. Rove Loves this Shit

I'll bet he has a collection of this filth

That he masturbates over, every night.

[sam sarrha]

2. results of his torture policy..

[msongs]

3. we show pictures of their trashed corpses nt

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

11. Sure do.

There is no end of websites out there where you can view videos of dead Iraqis and Afghanis and even how they got that way, in the most graphic means possible.

Hell, there is even one video out there showing, quite graphically, the results of American countersniping with a .50cal Barrett rifle.

Why do we need the press when the soldiers are making their own Death Porn?

:sarcasm:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. The look on these faces is as much a shock to me as the

images of what their efforts are going to create.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/weapons_of_terrorism.htm

[TX-RAT]

97. 50 cal sniper

That video, if it's the same one that was paraded all over the web, was debunked. It was varmint hunters shooting rock marmots.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Did they provide a giant gold frame?

:shrug:

[Wise Doubter]

5. I`m pretty sure her brothers we`re pissed ! n/t

[Dark]

6. Oh god. I don't care what anyone says. These people are monsters,

not freedom fighters.

I hope a hell exists to welcome the abominations who committed these atrocities.

[Wise Doubter]

8. Whose attrocities ?

ours or theirs ?

[Caoimhe]

10. It's all awful

and so unnecessary. I know the family of Tommy Tucker. This will rip the new scab right off the wound for them.

[INDIA]

53. Of course atrocities are being committed on both sides

Americans commit one, and they commit 1000. We're both guilty!!!

[robbob]

57. Yeah, right

Our side commits one, and they commit 1000. That must explain why there are 2,500+ American soldiers dead, and over 50,000 Iraquis.

But then again, I suppose one American life is worth 1,000 or more of "them"?

[INDIA]

58. Is this a logical argument?

"That must explain why there are 2,500+ American soldiers dead, and over 50,000 Iraquis." I think my post went over your head. And what's an "Iraquis"?

There have been three major atrocities covered in the press since the war began, Abu Gharaib, Haditha, and this recent rape/killing, all are of course, deplorable. I'm sure many more have been committed without the media or military justice system finding out. The difference is that a small percentage of American servicemen are committing atrocities. 100% of the insurgency is. Bombing markets, police stations, killing Sunnis, killing Shiites, killing tennis players for wearing shorts, bombing liquor stores etc. All in a days work for the Iraqi freedom fighter.

I refuse to believe that our military (with a small percentage of exceptions) is even COMPARABLE to the Iraqi insurgency. It's a fantasy that they are, not reality.

[LynnTheDem]

124. And AMERICA committed "the supreme crime"

Love your bullshit "we commit one, and they commit 1000".

:rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. There are many different groups with different agendas and different

tactics and different strategies.

We have to start thinking for the complexity that is Iraq. Getting off on a "they're not freedom fighters they're killers" jag is all well and good, and deeply satisfying to be sure, but it's the usual contempt for the complexity of the situation, the same contempt that 's gotten us into this mess in the first place.

[mvd]

68. No one should excuse stuff like this

But both sides are in the wrong. We invaded for unacceptable reasons and led to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis and indirectly 2,500 of our soldiers. They show barbarism when they kill innocents and soldiers (not firing on them) in return..

[ShortnFiery]

127. You should note that OUR bombs have killed more innocent civilians

as the handiwork of Al Quaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah combined within the past four years.

With regard to most of the World's Opinion: The mighty USA Military Super Power (with the CIA) is the biggest source of State Sponsored TERRORISM.

Gee, who are the terrorists now? Although we don't drop the bombs or arty shells, the USA people have "the blood of innocents" on their hands because WE ALLOW these evil Leaders to commit such atrocities.

And NO! It doesn't matter to the family members of the innocents that we MAY NOT have specifically targeted them. Dead is DEAD whether from a precision guided bomb or from a more crude mechanism such as a suicide bomber.

How does it feel a supporter of the USA's State Sponsored Terrorist Killing Machine? Even though we are unwilling members of this Death and Destruction USA Military Industrial complex, we still must bear some responsibility.

We must protest ... non-violent means to stop the Killing and Dying for The Ruling Class Warmongers. :(

[Cocoa]

7. and remember

there were no WMDs.

Which was supposed to be the reason those soldiers were there.

Let's not forget that.

[bluestateguy]

9. Barbaric acts do not excuse barbaric acts

War crimes must be condemned and punished no matter who the perpetrators are. Al Qaeda, or US soldiers who rape and murder, all must be punished harshly and with no mercy, irregardless of who "broke the rules first" (that has always struck me as a rather childish line of argument anyway; "he started it!" "Did not!" "Did too").

[IndianaGreen]

13. Babineau, Menchaca, and Tucker got the shaft from their platoon

It was 5 members of their same platoon that conspired and participated in the rape and murder of a 14-year old girl, the killing of her mother, father, and 7-year sister.

Iraq's brutality has reached the brutality of the Algerian war of independence.

[Pavulon]

15. We have not started killing in mass

shooting unarmed people in the street, as a RULE. Interesting footage is out there from that war. Anyone who says the french are weak and can not fight should see it. Extraordinarily violent.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. Who would know whether we have or not?

The military is going to tell the press?

[greccogirl]

16. You mean

allegedly, don't you? They haven't been convicted of anything yet.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Had I mentioned the suspects, I would have said alleged

but I only mentioned that it was members of the same platoon in which Babineau, Mancheco, and Tucker served, and they had nothing to do with this.

[me b zola]

60. I guess you haven't read their confessions

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/usgreen63006cmp4.html

[Pavulon]

14. I am sure the guys in that unit

Will now be less likely to put 3 center mass in anyone presenting the slightest reason to them.

They were chopping heads before we got there and will be when we leave. Part of a tradition, Nick Berg happened long before. Chechens did the same to russians. Radical Islamic tradition.

Not saying rape murder is right, but not the norm from the US.

The guys who left them by themselves should have their asses kicked.

Hope it was post mortem. BTW every person I know who has or is serving in Iraq of Afghanistan knows capture will lead to death. They (irregulars)take NO prisoners. Never have in this conflict.

[Catrina]

40. We don't need to chop heads, we have BOMBS. Cluster bombs dropped

in marketplaces, and elsewhere is no less murderous than beheadings or anything else that, btw, was NOT happening in Iraq before we got there. Here we used electric chairs to kill people who had done wrong, the method of doing that in the ME is beheading. I imagine they find our bombs to be pretty barbaric especially since they are not too discrimatory when it comes to women and children.

Please don't forget that WE invaded THEIR country and killed, maimed and tortured untold numbers of innocent Iraqi civilians. Everything that happened after that was Bush's fault, including the fact that now the Iraqis want revenge for those deaths and torture.

Funny, but when 9/11 happened, we were off on a rampage of revenge (to the wrong countries) calling for the murder of anyone who even looked like an Arab.

Had the American people been a little wiser, they would never have supported this war ~ had they not, every dead soldier would be alive today, and there would be no rampaging insurgents running around Iraq killing people. Bush has turned that country into a killing field and those of us who opposed the war predicted this would happen but were called traitors. Now, we are expected to get all upset that it's happening. It's Bush and his neocon friends who are to blame, and the people who supported them. It was all so predictable.

[vincent_vega_lives]

82. Rules of Engagement in Iraq

preclude the use of cluster bombs in urban areas. In fact since May 2003 submunitions are excluded entirely. PGM's are utilized (Precicion Guided Muntitions) when ever possible to reduce the chance of colateral damage.

The VAST majority of civiian casualties in Iraq are caused by the insurgent's VBIEDs (vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device) and sectarian killings.

But facts are seldom useful here.

[Catrina]

100. I disagree. Facts are always useful here. But when you start from

the premise that 'rules' matter to this administration, very few facts will follow. Pre-emptive war is precluded, torture is precluded, lying to the American people is precluded etc.

Here are some facts, in spite of the rules, regarding the use of cluster bombs in Iraq:

Iraq: Use of cluster bombs -- Civilians pay the price


On 1 April, at least 33 civilians including many children were reportedly killed and around 300 injured in US attacks on the town of al-Hilla. Amnesty International is particularly disturbed by reports that cluster bombs were used in the attacks and may have been responsible for some of the civilian deaths.

"The use of cluster bombs in an attack on a civilian area of al-Hilla constitutes an indiscriminate attack and a grave violation of international humanitarian law," Amnesty International emphasized today.

"If the US is serious about protecting civilians, it must publicly commit to a moratorium on the use of cluster weapons. Using cluster munitions will lead to indiscriminate killing and injuring of civilians," the organization added.

According to reports, the type of cluster bomblets used in al-Hilla was BLU97 A/B. Each cannister contains 202 small bomblets -- BLU97 -- the size of a soft drink can. These cluster bomblets scatter over a large area approximately the size of two football fields. At least 5% of these 'dud' bomblets do not explode upon impact, turning them into de facto anti-personnel mines because they continue to pose a threat to people, including civilians, who come into contact with them.

Public Document

web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE140652003


USATODAY.com - Cluster bombs kill in Iraq, even after shooting ends

Air Force used new, improved cluster bombs in Iraq that pose fewer dangers to civilians. But U.S. ground forces used old cluster munitions with a history of leaving unexploded bomblets (duds) that can ...

www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm

Joanne Mariner: Cluster Bombs in Iraq

Myers said that U.S. and British forces had dropped "nearly 1,500 cluster bombs of varying types" during the Iraq War, but that only twenty-six of these bombs had hit targets within ...

www.counterpunch.org/mariner05032003.html

And not only in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan ...

Backgrounder: Cluster Bombs in Afghanistan (Human Rights Watch October ...

The United States has continued to use cluster bombs in Iraq. While great press attention was paid to President George W. Bush's decision to bomb Iraqi targets on February 16, 2001, there was scant ...

www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/cluster-bck1031.htm

And as I already said, whatever sectarian violence is now occurring in Iraq, it is a result of this war, and therefore the US and their collaborators, ie Britain's Tony Blair, Berlusconi et al, are responsible.

[vincent_vega_lives]

103. None of this contradicts what I claimed

Cluster muntions were used during the Invasion, as it was considered a conventional engagement, but not in urban areas directly. Yes cluster munitions are a major problem for civilians, but the overiding concern is for the troops safety during direct engagements. That's why the Geneva convention explicitly forbids fighting out of uniform, using civilians as sheilds and using hospitals to fight from...it endangers civilians. This war sucks for everyone involved, and should have been avoided in this case, but your claims are ill directed.

Administration does not create the Rules of Engagement, the military commander on the ground does, though they can make it MORE restrictive, not less.

The war is not a direct result of the sectarian Violence if you want to get technical, it was the removal of Saddam's regime that ignited the Sectarian violence. Even without a militarty invasion you would have had the Shia looking for revenge and a Sunni led struggle to stay in power if the Baathist regime collapsed.

[Catrina]

114. I have to disagree with you again. You said that the US does not use

cluster bombs. They did, and they denied it until evidence was found at the scene.

As far as what I said, in response to your statement that more Iraqis are being killed by insurtgents now? We know that over 100,000 thousand Iraqis were killed as a direct result of the illegal war. Many more were maimed and tortured. This is why there are rebels, fighting to rid their country of occupiers, as we would do here. Added to that are the usual criminals taking advantage of the situation. But all of it is happening because of this war.

You are making excuses for a war that was not sold to the American people based on regime change. The American people were told that Saddam Hussein was a direct threat to this country and that he had WMDs. This is what got support for the war. It was all lies, and anything that is now said, regime change, bringing democracy to the ME or whatever the latest excuse is, the fact is, this war should never have happened. Experts were ignored when they claimed that Iraq had no WMDs. This administratiion planned this war way before 9/11. They had their own agenda, and they lied to the world and to the American people.

Cluster bombs were used in Afghanistan also. This again, is illegal, but this administration has placed itself above the law and tens of thousands of people have died as a result. It is a very serious matter when lives are lost, and especially when it is for nothing, other than to enrich and empower greedy, war-mongering politicians and their friends. I hope there will be an accounting some day. This is against the Constitution of the US and against International law. There are simply no excuses for it, imo.

Trying to excuse or defend it now, simply won't change the facts. And worst of all, it has endangered the US and increased the threat of terrorism.

[vincent_vega_lives]

117. Read what I said again

I did not say the US does not use custer munitions. They are restricted, not prohibited. And the US Military has never denied it. They are not against the laws of Land Warfare.

This is why there are rebels, fighting to rid their country of occupiers, as we would do here.

No sorry that is simplistic. The majority of people that are fighting the occupation are anti-democracy FASCISTS, and the criminal profiteers employed by them. They now that if the underclass in Iraq gets any power they are most likley finished. There are also the foreign muslim extremists that are there to wage jihad against the West. Plenty of Syrian paramilitary were killed/captured during the assault.

You are making excuses for a war that was not sold to the American people based on regime change. The American people were told that Saddam Hussein was a direct threat to this country and that he had WMDs. This is what got support for the war. It was all lies, and anything that is now said, regime change, bringing democracy to the ME or whatever the latest excuse is, the fact is, this war should never have happened. Experts were ignored when they claimed that Iraq had no WMDs. This administratiion planned this war way before 9/11. They had their own agenda, and they lied to the world and to the American people.

I don't disagree with any of that, except the part about my making excuses. I aint excusing the war, just contesting some of the inaccuracies people tout as facts.

Cluster bombs were used in Afghanistan also. This again, is illegal, but this administration has placed itself above the law and tens of thousands of people have died as a result. It is a very serious matter when lives are lost, and especially when it is for nothing, other than to enrich and empower greedy, war-mongering politicians and their friends. I hope there will be an accounting some day. This is against the Constitution of the US and against International law. There are simply no excuses for it, imo.

Cluster Munitions are not illegal. Just restricted. No on is saying the loss of life is not serious.

[LynnTheDem]

121. Actually that's not factual.

The vast majority of Iraqi "collateral damage" has been from US & UK bombing. And yes, the US used cluster bombs in urban areas.

[vincent_vega_lives]

122. "Collateral damage"

By definition is from US & UK combat actions (not limited to just bombing), so more than "vast majority", try 100%.

As for civilian deaths sinc May 2003? the VAST MAJORITY has been carried out by the Anit-Iraqi and Anit-Coalition forces.

"the US used cluster bombs in urban areas." Which service? How were they delivered? At what authorization level? What made it an urban area?

[LynnTheDem]

123. At least 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed; most by US & UK forces...

The VAST MAJORITY of Iraqi deaths have been caused by the US & UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

"...US forces fired hundreds of cluster bombs into urban areas of Baghdad..."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm

"Use of clusters in Baghdad" (the most populated city in Iraq) condemned; Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/16/iraq5653.htm

"US Central Command acknowledged Monday...that US forces have hit urban areas of Baghdad with cluster bombs..."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0415-13.htm

[ShortnFiery]

128. Sound like State Sponsored TERRORIST actions to me. :( eom

[ShortnFiery]

131. And let's not forget the USA's use of Willie Peat (White Phosphorus)

in Falluja (sp?). Burning people alive definitely qualifies as an international war crime. :(

[me b zola]

62. Iraq was a secular nation before we got there

Why are you conflating pre-occupation Iraq with radical Islam?

[vincent_vega_lives]

83. The Ruling regime in Iraq under Sadam was secular

(Stalinist type Socialism) But I would hardly call Iraq a Secular Nation.

[Just Me]

18. It's ALL sick!!! ALL OF IT!!!

ALL OF IT!!!

I see no justice in any of this shit. It's all vile and sick as hell. Hope all the sickness folds into itself and leaves the rest of decent humanity alone. That's my hope.

[spooked]

19. NOT for the faint of heart, but Ogrish has pics

WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC

http://www.ogrish.com/index2.html

[IndianaGreen]

20. I watched the 73 second video and...

except for the beheading of Tucker, the mutilations reminded me of Vietnam.

Americans may be horrified by such images, but Iraqis see images that are just as horrifying. American firepower has been used indiscriminately against the civilian population, its horrors far outpacing the ones in insurgents' videos.

[Pavulon]

21. I take exception with that

If we used firepower indiscriminately there would be half a million or more dead, easy.

We have not reduced cities. We take prisoners, the insurgents do not. The offer NO QUARTER period.

Maybe this gets my temper up as a vet. We do not kill people on a whim on purpose with massive firepower. People die, innocent people, but not as a rule and not as policy. We do not kill civilians at the market for pleasure or politics.

Concentrated artillery or massive air assaults can kill tens of thousands an hour, that has not been done. We could have killed every living thing in falluja to make a point, we did not.

I do not like the way this has been carried out, but I will not justify it, or attempt to find reason for it.

It is propaganda, disgusting, and meant for public consumption. We try our criminals.

Not raging against you but that is disgusting and unacceptable, from any "side".

[katinmn]

25. Have not reduced cities? What about Falujah, Nov. 04?

What about Abu Ghraib prisoners after 4 years still without legal representation, still without trials of any kind?
What about the Haditha massacre of 24 men, women and children?
What about the 2004 abuse of Iraq POWs?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
We may very well have killed half a million by now, but who is counting? The military isn't.

And on and on and on.
These are not isolated incidents. These are mounting widespread acts of violence against innocent people we are supposed to be "liberating."

Please, no excuses. I don't know if you served under Rumsfeld or not but he has turned the military into a shameful, disgusting, insane organ.

[Pavulon]

26. Nope (large Img)

The falluja/jenin destruction is a myth. Compare to dresden, tokyo, etc, Reduced is flat 50% total pop dead.

We are not carpet bombing targets. Note city is not smoldering ruin.

Rumsfeld is a fuck (did not serve under him), but there is no justification. We take prisoners, they do NOT. Simple.

Sat image Before


After
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/fallujah_111404_full.html

[katinmn]

27. That shows nothing! Try this:

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28&page=1

[Pavulon]

28. Mine shows everything

hi res sat image shows city standing before, standing with minor blast damage after. People die in war. It is sad and should not happen, this was avoidable.

However ground photos do not show the scale of damage. We could have killed everyone there and left ashes not bodies. We did not because we are discriminate in the use of force.

That does not mean we do not kill people. A good number of pictures you posted were fighters. If fighters fight among civilians they are responsible for their deaths. A round does not discriminate between the target and his family in the next room.

Point is, we did not level it, we take prisoners. They NEVER take prisoners and return them alive.

They fly a BLACK FLAG, this is well known in the military community.

[katinmn]

29. LOL. So you're a supporter of the war. No indescriminate use of force, huh

10s of thousands of civilians should not be getting murdered. Now the civilians have HAD IT and they will defend themselves against the occupiers because it is clear the US is not leaving. And they are completely justified.

Tell me one thing you war supporters are accomplishing in Iraq.

One.

All of you who apologize for and stand alongside Bush are going to get us all killed.

[Pavulon]

65. All Wrong

I do not support the war for my own reasons. I do not support its method of execution. I do not support bush, for sure.

My point was we do not use massive indiscriminate force to kill. Your justification is your own. I am sure it is more complex. The civilians killing the other civilians, or the civilians who want radical islam, sunni islam, or shia islam. Which ones?

Are they justified killing soft targets because it is harder to cause mass casualties against us?

Who is going to kill us all?

[vincent_vega_lives]

80. Rather simplistic view of the world you have

(Why am i talking like Yoda?)

[INDIA]

96. "defend themselves against the occupiers"

Yeah! Today they defended themselves by kidnapping and killing 20 Shiites from a bus station, while 8 Sunnis were killed at a Mosque. I'm sure you wish it was the case that they are "defending" themselves from occupiers, but its not. It's a fantasy.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Is your photo of Fallujah dated 2003?

Isn't that the date on it, 25 July 2003?

[Zynx]

41. After photo is dated November 14 2004 - after US operations in city

It's still standing, more or less.

[salinen]

50. Hey, they only raped a 14 year old

they could have raped 100's of 14 year olds.

[vincent_vega_lives]

81. starting to sound like 1968 around here

Spit on any GI's lately?

[vincent_vega_lives]

79. These captions are a joke

All those "Shot in BED". Please what kind of propaganda crap is that. More likely a makeshift insurgent aid station. Notice how 90% of the bodies are men? If it were an indiscriminate massacre you would expect to see closer to 50/50 men and women, and a lot more children. That said the death of any non-combatant (especially) children is tragic.

I got news for you people. You can be anti-war-in-Iraq and not be PRO-ASSWIPE.

[saigon68]

111. Nothing to see --- Move along

LOL





8:59 p.m., Oct. 18, 2003. Detainees is handcuffed in the nude to a bed and has a pair of panties covering his face. The photograph is taken from inside the cell. All caption information is taken directly from CID materials.

[truebrit71]

105. Ouch...you should warn people about that link....

Holy crap.....

[vincent_vega_lives]

84. Legal Representation?

POW's don't get legal representation unless they are civilians. And if they took part in hostilies they they are combatants, not civilians.

The "Haditha Massacre" is still under investigation. That title is a little premature although it does look bad.

Abuse of Iraqi POWs (can't be POWs if they require legal representation, so make up your mind) was regretable, but undertaken by a relative few individuals/units. When an Army National Guard artillery took over Abu Graib prison, the abuse ended.

No the military isnt counting, it learned that lesson from Vietnam, remember? But how could it really? The enemy doesnt wear uniforms for the most part so when you take a weapon (or a cell phone IED trigger) away from a dead body you have, voila, an instant civilian. Combine that with the thousands killed by insugents, Al-Quaida, and Iraqi on Iraqi then good luck in sorting that out.

You have no clue what the military is or isnt.

[Nihil]

115. "Took part in hostilities"?

As in "was in the same city block"?
Or maybe "was injured by one of the many shells fired at the area"?

> The enemy doesnt wear uniforms for the most part so when you take a weapon
> (or a cell phone IED trigger) away from a dead body you have, voila, an
> instant civilian. Combine that with the thousands killed by insugents,
> Al-Quaida, and Iraqi on Iraqi then good luck in sorting that out.

Are you speaking for the Administration or the DoD?
If not, how can you pretend that the small children murdered by the invading
forces were "the enemy"?

Leave out the "Iraqi on Iraqi" kills.
Leave out the mythical "Al-Quaida" kills.
Leave out those killed by the anonymous "insurgents".
Are you still defending the killing of the remaining civilians as
some kind of "shit happens" hand-wave?

> You have no clue what the military is or isnt.

Wrong. The military is a collection of killers. That's exactly what they've
been trained to do and exactly what you want when trying to defend your country.
Unfortunately, the problem is that they've been loosed onto a bunch of innocent
civilians in the name of greed & profit.

I don't blame a guard dog for savaging some drunk who climbs over the fence,
ignoring the warnings. If, on the other hand, the guard dog gets into a
schoolyard of small children and lays waste all around, I DO have a problem
with people blaming the children ...

[vincent_vega_lives]

116. we are talking POW's here remember?

As in "was in the same city block"?
Or maybe "was injured by one of the many shells fired at the area"?

Nope, Neither qualify and individual as a combatant.


Are you speaking for the Administration or the DoD?
If not, how can you pretend that the small children murdered by the invading forces were "the enemy"?

Speaking for myself. Not pretending anything. I take umbrige with the 'Murder' charge. Death of children in war is ALWAYS tragic, whether that war is just or unjust, legal or illegal. The charge of Murder requires the intent to kill a noncombatant.

Are you still defending the killing of the remaining civilians as
some kind of "shit happens" hand-wave?

Never. Just trying to point out somtimes number crunchers can conveniently leave out certain facts in order to forward an agenda. And that agenda goes beyond whether the war was wrong or not.

While the lable "Al Quaida" is mostly misused, it is "mithical" only to the mis/uninformed or willfully ignorent.

The military is a collection of killers. That's exactly what they've been trained to do and exactly what you want when trying to defend your country. Unfortunately, the problem is that they've been loosed onto a bunch of innocent civilians in the name of greed & profit.

I dont disagree with that. Though "collection of killers" is a little simplistic. Dehuminization is never a good thing.

I don't blame a guard dog for savaging some drunk who climbs over the fence, ignoring the warnings. If, on the other hand, the guard dog gets into a schoolyard of small children and lays waste all around, I DO have a problem with people blaming the children ...

While I think the war was ill advised at best, I would hardly compare pre-war Iraq to a "school yard of small children." Have you any idea what the Baathist party was all about?

[IndianaGreen]

31. The US killed over 100,000 dead civilians according to Lancet Report

and that is considered a conservative estimate.

We used phosphorus in Fallujah and our generals are openly talking about doing a Lidice liquidation on Ramadi.

Our artillery has killed hundreds of civilians, just ask any returning veteran and they will tell you that they killed a lot of civilians by the use of the massive firepower their tactics call for.

Lancet Report on Iraqi Mortality

Detailed Summary

Background

In March, 2003, military forces, mainly from the USA and the UK, invaded Iraq. We did a survey to compare mortality during the period of 14.6 months before the invasion with the 17.8 months after it.

Methods

A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004. 33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002. In those households reporting deaths, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. We assessed the relative risk of death associated with the 2003 invasion and occupation by comparing mortality in the 17.8 months after the invasion with the 14.6-month period preceding it.

Findings

The risk of death was estimated to be 2.5-fold (95% CI 1.6-4.2) higher after the invasion when compared with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1.5-fold (1.1-2.3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that 98000 more deaths than expected (8000-194000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the outlier Falluja cluster is included. The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8.1-419) than in the period before the war.

Interpretation

Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths. We have shown that collection of public-health information is possible even during periods of extreme violence. Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes.

http://www.epic-usa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=424

Full report here:

http://www.epic-usa.org/Portals/1/Lancet_report_on_iraqi_mortality_before_and_after_2003.pdf

[0007]

43. I wonder what the true numbers indeed are? I heard that the

total was well over 250,000 two months ago.

[Zodiak]

55. It is...Lancet published another article

thy conservatively estimated 300,000 unnecessary deaths because of the war. Add the 1/2 a million due to sanctions, and we have ourselves an event that is beginning to be seen on the Hitler-meter.

[Pavulon]

70. The UN sanctions

approved by the security council and enforced europe ans well as the us?

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Your 300k is off by an order of magnitude.

[Zodiak]

73. Yes, I do mean the sanctions

imposed by the US and EU. They were wrong as they were practiced. Sanctions should not lead to deaths. It was irresponsible for the US and Britain to continue to put pressure on to keep the sactions alive as they were. Half of a million people died.

As far as your order of magnitude argument, you will may agree that such disparity exist when one compares apples to oranges. Iraqbodycount.com follows deaths from guns and bombs. I am talking uneccesary deaths...from lack of food, water, medicine, and yes, from guns. The Lancet did not publish another article...you got me there. Forgive me for a foggy memory. However, my figure is backed up by the lead author of that article of Lancet. Remember, the Lancet article was a year and a half ago.

http://www.alternet.org/story/31508/

The lead author of The Lancet report, Les Roberts, reported more recently on Feb. 8, 2006, that there may be as many as 300,000 Iraqi civilian deaths. One of the world's top epidemiologists and a lecturer at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Roberts has also worked for the World Health Organization and the International Rescue Committee.

There is a humanitarian crisis in Iraq with people dying by the thousands. This would not have happened if not through direct US action. You can go as far back as installing Saddam in the first place all the way to raining white sulphur on Fallujah. These people never deserved our misguided foreign policy.

[vincent_vega_lives]

85. Because of "sanctions"

Please! I am tired of people blaiming the UN/US, Clinton/Bush for Iraqi deaths under sanctions! The sanctions, were idiotic not because they killed innocent Iraqis, but because the I-community was niave enought to think that Saddam wouldn't abuse them in such a way that resulted in letting his own people perish. The sanctions were designed to hurt the regime but allow food and medicine in. Saddam just redireced the food and medicine to the Army and the party fathfull. Saddam killed those people.

[Zodiak]

92. The effect of sanctions should be monitored

In fact, they were monitored, and found to be hurting the IRaqi people. Still, even though many in the world wanted the sanctions changed or lifted, the US and Britain struggled to keep the sanctions as-is (because both countries were profiting from it).

You don't impose sanctions and then walk away from monitoring them. Saddam is no Boy Scout, and the US/UK knew it. There was no naivite. Only greed and a willingness to look the other way.

And yes, Saddam is just as much to blame, but he was a brutal dictator, so his exertions on the sanctions were expected. I do not accept naivite or incomptence as excuses.

[vincent_vega_lives]

94. Shoud have monitored more is a far cry from your "Hiter" claim

some UN officials were making too lucrative a profit from the sanctions to "monitor" them too closely. As for the US-UK axis of evil, how exactly where they profiting from it?

No acceptance here, recognition perhaps, and tired of the Genocide claim, which you seem to be backing away from.

[Zodiak]

98. I am not backing way from it

We are talking a humanitarian crisis where 800,000 people have died in total. Regardless of who is to blame, the crisis rises to the level where it can be seen on the Hitler-meter. I didn't say it was equal, and I didn;t say that the US is Hitler. Those are your interpretations.

I am not going to be your Google slave. Just look up the number of US and UK companies that benefitted from the oil for food program. There were many, and they are contributors to campaigns.

[Pavulon]

66. Even If that number is

correct. 45000 is the accepted high number caused by all sides (iraqibodycount). Even if that is correct massed indiscriminate killing could create that death toll in HOURS.

I have asked veterans and know that artillery and air is controlled and no one is leveling cities or killing towns with massed shelling or bombing.

I know for a fact artillery kills non combatants, as do IED's and stray enemy mortar rounds.

My point is we are not free for all killing large groups of civilians. An illegal shooting is not an air strike with b1b, b52s or a 4 hour barrage on a city grid.

See stalingrad, and dresden, an various bosnian cities as reference for this type of force.

[Zodiak]

75. Just as an added reminder

Iraqbodycount's methodology has come under question just as much as the Lancet has. Both have been used to shape policy, and both have their supporters and detractors.

There is no winner in a battle of experts; we can believe either one and be correct. It is not intellectually honest to be dogmatic about either one.

[KansDem]

51. "We take prisoners..."

According to Jimmy Carter who quoted an army intelligence statistic, 70-90% of these "prisoners" are innocent civilians. And we torture them in ways unimaginable that violate the basic tenets of civility or humanity.

So who is committing the greater obscenity in this "war?"

[Pavulon]

67. You are saying

we torture all the prisoners we take? Get real.

The guys playing the queen of hearts game, flying the black flag, are the bad guys.


When we begin killing all suspects in the street by chopping their heads off, let me know.

[KansDem]

71. I never said "all prisoners"

I don't know if we torture all the prisoners we take...I wouldn't be surprised if we did.

We do torture civilians.

According to Jimmy Carter who quoted an army intelligence statistic, 70-90% of these "prisoners" are innocent civilians. And we torture them in ways unimaginable that violate the basic tenets of civility or humanity.

These "prisoners" are rounded up in sweeps of residences and the like. 70-90% are innocent according to army intelligence. Yet we torture them anyway.

That's why I questioned who is committing the greater obscenity: those with whom we are "at war" who kill, or those in that "war" who torture innocent civilians in significant numbers.

[Pavulon]

72. I am having trouble finding that

I am sure it was said but would like the context.

I do not believe we torture significant numbers of civilians(yes any is to many). Have no proof, but just dont see it.

If detention its self is torture maybe.

[KansDem]

113. I was referring to civilian "prisoners"

...and I apologize for not being more clear about that.

This excerpt might help to clarify my argument:

For example, Major General Antonio Taguba, following his investigation of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, determined “A lack of proper screening meant that many innocent Iraqis were being detained – in some cases indefinitely.” And Taguba added that 60% of civilian prisoners at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released.

Similarly, the International Red Cross said that between 70% and 90% of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.

Captain James Yee, former Muslim U.S. Army chaplain, who provided ministerial services at Guantanamo Bay for several months, comments throughout his book, For God and Country, that the more he got to know the prisoners the more difficult it was to picture them as terrorists, or criminals of any kind, while providing numerous details to support those conclusions.

And as Jimmy Carter has pointed out in his recent book, “Our Endangered Values”, at least 107 of our detainees have been identified as being under the age of 18, with some are as young as eight years old.

From DU

I also read in Jimmy Carter's book Endangered Values that 70-90% of the Iraqis arrested--from their homes and off the streets--were innocent of any charges. This is the statistic used by the International Red Cross and US army intelligence. Yet they were detained--some indefinitely until finally released--and tortured. How many? I don't know but as you observed, "any is to many."

Bush has taken the American high ground of morality and human rights and placed it squarely on the bottom of the deepest cesspool. In order to pursue war with Iraq:
1) He trashed the Geneva Conventions. As a veteran, you no doubt understand the gravity of this action. Human treatment of POWs must be observed in time of war but when Bush thumbed his nose at Geneva, what did we expect the Iraqis to do?
2) He allowed his Attorney General to fabricate an excuse for the use of torture, undermining any US credibility to establish as our foundation the observance of human rights and dignity that this nation has had as its foundation since 1776.

He did this so he can pursue his war of choice based on lies. He did it for oil and personal wealth.

What happened to the US soldiers was horrible and barbaric. I don't ever recall something like this happening before. There were some pretty barbaric acts during Vietnam, but nothing like this (that was revealed, anyway--we didn't have the Internet then). But at the same time we must try to understand how this happened and what will happen as a result. We must also come to terms about how the rape and murder of Iraqi girls puts all US troops in even greater peril. Five US troops identified as the alleged attackers are now under investigation, but following this tragedy, I would not want to be a US soldier anywhere in Iraq at this moment.

We can credit George W. Bush for that...

[ShortnFiery]

130. Hey, dead is dead whether your targeted or mutilated afterwords ...

You know, I'm getting the impression that you live by, "My Country Right or Wrong." Which is cool. However, you are very good at RATIONALIZING the wrong. Our bombs have killed more innocent civilians within the past few years than all of these so called "terrorist" organizations have combined.

Yet you rationalize that it's morally OK to do so because we didn't cut off their heads or mutilate them after.

Get REAL! :(

[vincent_vega_lives]

87. Bull Shit

70-90% of the detainees are taken in without a weapon, or direct act of violence. That doesn't make them innocent, unfortunately it is an insurgent tactic to use semingly "noncombatants" to plant and act as scouts for IED ambushes. Somtimes whole families are involved, threatened with death if they do not participate. That, unfortunately, makes them eligble to end up as a detainee, for intelligence gathering and deterance sake.

Bullshit on the "torture them in ways unimaginable that violate the basic tenets of civility or humanity." That is absolute GARBAGE. Yes there are cases of abuse. But nothing like what you are claiming.

[npincus]

44. can't watch- was he beheaded on video?

Or was the video taken after? Did they show the actual killing, or just the aftermath?

[Kingshakabobo]

46. No. They show mutilated remains and a severed head. Sick. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

129. What, those who are NOT mutilated are just as DEAD!

That's what a weaker power does to have more effect. Sure it's sick but when you don't have a mighty army you stoop to such sickness. Whatever it takes. If we were insurgents, many of us would do the same. :(

[NoodleyAppendage]

23. Watched it. Found it interesting that the genitals were blurred out.

Even when being sick and twisted, these insurgents do not sink to the level of sexual depravity we employed at Abu Gahrab...interesting to see that.

Sorry to the families for having to endure these pictures and video. I'm sure they seeth with hate for those who killed their kids, but it's likely they won't see that their kids would have NEVER died if Iraq wasn't invaded in a stupid geopolitical move for regional dominance.

J

[vincent_vega_lives]

88. Who's we?

Were you at Abu Gahrab?

[saigon68]

125. This guys package hanging out

[underpants]

49. I'm not looking but I heard it was really really bad

No thanks I don't need to see that.

[KansDem]

52. It was really really bad...

But NoodleyAppendage has it right in post no. 23.

Sorry to the families for having to endure these pictures and video. I'm sure they seeth with hate for those who killed their kids, but it's likely they won't see that their kids would have NEVER died if Iraq wasn't invaded in a stupid geopolitical move for regional dominance.

Many Americans would "seeth with hate" at the sight of this video, not realizing "their kids would have NEVER died if Iraq wasn't invaded in a stupid geopolitical move for regional dominance."

[vincent_vega_lives]

89. I agree with that (n/t)

[truebrit71]

106. That whole site is effing sick....

....who actively seeks out this type of stuff??? :puke:

[katinmn]

22. So now there is an Iraqi branch of Al-Quaida? Funny, there never was

before Junior invaded.

Thanks a lot you rat bastard:

[neverforget]

24. Anderson Copper said "we don't show terrorist propaganda" to which

my reply was "But you show American propaganda!"

[otohara]

118. He's A Contracted, Overpaid Employee

of the Ministry of Propaganda Telecommunications Inc. or in his case, Time/Warner.

Cooper may think he's not one of them, but he is. In smaller doses albeit

[norml]

34. Group claims 3 GIs killed over rape-murders

Group claims 3 GIs killed over rape-murders

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer
8 minutes ago


BAGHDAD, Iraq - An al-Qaida-linked group claims it killed three U.S. soldiers last month and mutilated two of their bodies to avenge the rape-slaying of a young Iraqi woman by troops of the same unit, an institute which monitors extremists Web sites said Tuesday.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council made the claim in a 4:39 minute video posted on the Internet which included the mutilated bodies of two of the soldiers attacked June 16 near Youssifiyah southwest of Baghdad, according to a statement by the SITE Institute. Their remains were found three days later.

The institute released still pictures from the video showing two of the American dead, one of whom had been decapitated.

According to the institute, the statement by the insurgent group said the video was released as "revenge for our sister who was dishonored by a soldier of the same brigade."

Two sergeants are among five American soldiers charged in the March 12 alleged rape-murder and the killing her parents and a younger sister. The U.S. military released the identities of the suspects Monday.


snip


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060711/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_rape_case

[KingFlorez]

35. Disgusting

Other soldiers are the ones paying for a sick act committed by just a few troops

[GreenTea]

36. The Pentagon's answer, enlist more hate-filled troops like Skinheads

and other criminals to fill the unfilled recruiting ranks.

[Kagemusha]

37. It doesn't matter if these GI deaths were directly related or not...

They're still dead, and it's useful propaganda by the enemy either way.

[Virginia Dare]

48. It matters...

by virture of the fact that there is a chance it could have been avoided if the U.S. military had handled this incident properly. Iraqi civilians apparently are receiving no justice for the crimes that are being committed against them.

I am reminded so much by this incident of what happened in this country during the American Revolution. So many of the civilians that might otherwise have remained neutral got involved in the insurgency against the British simply because of the brutality that was being perpetrated on them.

[question everything]

38. Just because they claim they did it does not mean

that the killing was in fact a retaliation act. Could be an act of propaganda to show the Iraqis that this group fight for them.

[Virginia Dare]

47. I think it's pretty obvious that it was...

Iraqis reported the killings to U.S. troops the day they occurred, but the deaths were blamed on insurgents or "other entities" at the time, according to an FBI agent's affidavit. (Watch how Army probe into deaths began -- 1:00)

But three months later, during combat stress debriefing sessions that followed the killings of two U.S. soldiers kidnapped from a checkpoint in Yusufiya, members of Green's platoon began recounting the killings.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/03/iraq.charge/index.html

They didn't start talking until after the kidnap and killing of the two soldiers, members of the same platoon. Coincidence? I doubt it.

[Virginia Dare]

45. Of course they did...

and the press is not reporting it that way, so they must be under U.S. military or Bushco orders not to.

Iraq has spiraled into chaos and vigilante justice, and the U.S. military has blatantly allowed this to happen.

This is going to send any vestiges of morale among the troops right down the tubes. Every G.I. who is attached to any unit with members who have done or are doing bad things, either on their own or due to orders, has got to shitting bricks right now.

[TX-RAT]

99. Interesting! first they blamed it on Haditha.

They have more trouble keeping their story straight, than Bush does.

[Algorem]

39. this stuff threatens to give the psychotic U.S. war machine a bad name

[Up2Late]

42. Qaeda-led group shows video of "US corpses" in Iraq (Reuters)

(Is this what he means by "good progress"??? Progressively Bad!)

Qaeda-led group shows video of "US corpses" in Iraq

Tue Jul 11, 2006 02:33 AM ET

DUBAI (Reuters) - A group led by al Qaeda in Iraq released gruesome footage of two corpses it said were of U.S. soldiers killed in June, and dedicated the video to an Iraqi girl raped and shot dead by U.S. forces.

The video, issued by the Mujahideen Shura Council in Iraq and posted on an Islamist Web site on Tuesday, showed the bodies of two Western-looking men dressed in camouflage uniforms. It was not clear from the images whether they were U.S. soldiers.

One body had been decapitated. Both were bloodied and with flesh missing from several parts of their bodies. Several shots showed the bodies being trodden on by unidentified men.

"We present this production, of the remains of the bodies of the two American soldiers kidnapped near Yusufiya, as revenge to our sister whose honor was violated by a soldier from the same regiment," the Mujahideen Shura Council said in a statement accompanying the video.

(more at link) <http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=12799364&src=rss/topNews>

[KansDem]

54. Well, I believe the message is quite clear...

Don't invade a country to wage war based on lies, kill its citizens and rape and murder its 14-year old girls.

Bush? Cheney? Rumsfeld? Outraged Americans? Are you listening?

[vincent_vega_lives]

90. Somehow I doubt the Insurgents care if the US Administration

lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. As if they had told the truth they would have just said "oh ok then".

And as far as we know it is 14-year old GIRL, (and you forgot the murder of the girl's family too) unless you are privy to information no one else has. BTW I suppose it doesn't matter that the soldiers involved are to be tried for murder.

[Zodiak]

56. One of the soldiers was far more mutilated than the other

I wonder why there was disparity in their torture?

Most of the wounds look cut and cauterized, evidenced by darkened flesh around the wound and very little blood at the wound site. They could have been post-mortem, but I think the burn marks indiacte that they were not.

These men suffered greatly before their deaths.

[IndianaGreen]

74. I venture to guess that they knew the killers of the girl were white men

Tucker was white, while Menchaca was Latino with a darker complexion than Tucker. Tucker was the only one that was beheaded.

[Igel]

59. We show a corpse to

show that the person's a corpse, usually resulting from a battle or bombing. *'s handlers know there'll be an outcry from some Americans over it, nonetheless they also know that the statement "X is dead" without evidence will be dismissed as a lie by the people decrying publicizing the evidence.

The guys in this group show bodies of hostages that they killed before or during mutilation in order to convince others that the mutilators are honorable men and good Muslims, presenting this as an act of piety and faithfulness to Allah. Presumably they know the cultural predilections of their audience as well as *'s handlers know Americans'.

The people behind this video know that the outcry in Iraq will be scant; moderates do not control the public sphere. And their audience isn't Shi'ites, by and large, but Sunnis. I'll wait to hear the outcry from the Iraqi Sunni community. But I won't stop what I'm doing in the meantime.

There are sick people on both sides that like snuff films, and film of real gore and blood. But I can't think of many groups that would use them as a recruiting tool, or claim religious motivation. And get reasonably broad support. As I said, they know their audience; they know that torture is not condemned in principle, if covered with a good excuse, and saying Muhammed likes bloodthirsty killers also isn't objectionable, if said by the righteous. I won't wait for the Assoc. of Islamic Scholars or their cognates in other Muslim countries to organize protests, saying that this group has defamed Islam and violated the Prophet.

And since precisely this kind of thing has been stock in trade among this group, and allied groups, since before Fallujah and Abu Ghraib, allegations that those events motivated this one will first require evidence of Islamic time travel capability or prescience. Lacking such evidence, I'll consider those making the allegations to be fellow travellers of the mutilators, their witting public apologists.

[saigon68]

112. Here's a Corpse

NO ONE HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH THIS MAN'S MURDER

[Tight_rope]

61. What's good for the goose (USA) is good for the ganer (Al-Qaeda)!

We certainly can't complain about something that we the USA also do.

[vincent_vega_lives]

91. Bull Shit (n/t)

[arwalden]

69. If This Was Revenge For A Rape... I Imagine These Boys Were Castrated.

... in addition to the other horrific torture and mutilation.

I don't have the stomach (or the heart) to watch the video or even to look at stills. Relying on my imagination is bad enough.

[The Straight Story]

76. And now our troops will be out to avenge this act

And it will just escalate.

[LastDemocratInSC]

77. Nathaniel Greene's troops, in the American Revolution, did horrible things

After the battles at Cowpens, SC and King's Mountain, NC, Colonial troops dug up the bodies of British and Tory soldiers, mutilated them, and left them to rot unburied. It was standard practice for the Colonials to urinate on any Tory found dead after a battle.

More Revolutionary War battles were fought in South Carolina than in any other colony. Nathaniel Greene commanded many of those troops and it was an especially nasty time of the war. Atrocities were commonly committed by the Colonials.

[vincent_vega_lives]

86. Yes War brings out the best in people

Thats why Modern Democracies have Professional Armies. To TRY to, among other reasons, place a measure of control on the violence. Sometimes human nature trumps dicipline.

[oneinok]

93. This is war.

This is war. All wars are hell.

[vincent_vega_lives]

95. Thanks Tecumseh (n/t)

[dailykoff]

101. How exactly would "Al-Qaeda" know they were from the same division?

This story has stunk of Pentagon propaganda from the get-go and that includes the mutilations if not the actual killings.

Maybe these guys just knew too much and were ready to tell the truth.

[vincent_vega_lives]

104. The insurgents regularly target certain units and let others off

with less attention. They post death threats of individual unit commanders by name. They've even called soldier's families in the states to threaten them.

Give them more credit. They're a clever bunch.

[dailykoff]

107. Evidently they changed their clothes to avoid detection

and then killed the victim and the witnesses:

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/136325/1/4536

So tell me again how "al-Qaeda" connected Menchaca and Tucker to that particular crime?

[vincent_vega_lives]

110. Good Question

The two soldiers were of the same Division and Regiment as the accused rapist/murderers.

A Regiment is a Brigade sized unit,(1500-2500 soldiers) covers a pretty large area, so could easily have targeted US units in that particular area, which would have beloned to the same unit.

[go west young man]

102. It's interesting reading this thread.

As we debate and argue our different viewpoints on the war it's amazing how far we have come along since 2001. I can see now how Germany was brought to accept the violence. Nowadays it's a part of our everyday discussions and the horror doesn't shock us. I'm not knocking anyone for their personal views here. I'm just saying it's like a weird social experiment now and we all are caught up in it. Personally I think the Bush administration has given Bin Laden exactly what he wanted with the invasion of Iraq.

[INDIA]

109. Interesting observation.

I think there's some truth to it as well.

[Divine Discontent]

108. barf I hate war, and despise men who CHOOSE to wage it n/t

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- check them and others out!

[brentspeak]

119. Savages

n/t

[LynnTheDem]

126. Just like us.

Cept we started it all by committing the supreme crime of invading a sovereign nation that hadn't been doing one damn thing to us or anyone else.

But of course it's ok when we do it.

Savages R Us.A.

[AliceWonderland]

120. This stinks to me

From the ridiculous "Iraqi branch of Al-Qaeda" nonsense -- god, I hate infotainment that passes as having the intellectual rigour of a hamster's knee -- to the fact that this alleged video comes out NOW. Oh, please. If the Iraqi franchise of Al-Q (dear god, is the American public this stupid??) knew about a rape, why didn't they publicize it at the time the American soldiers were killed?

Eesh.