Feingold defends Israel's attack response

[rodeodance]

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=7/15/2006&id=8593

SATURDAY, July 15, 2006, 4:29 p.m.
By Craig Gilbert
Feingold defends Israel's attack response

Platteville - U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold today defended Israel's right to protect itself amid the escalating conflict along its borders, saying, "I don't think any country is going to let their soldiers be kidnapped, transported, killed ... without a serious response."

Feingold said he would not second-guess "whether that response was exactly as it should be."

Said Feingold: "My hope would be that Israel would use as much restraint as possible .... It's in Israel's interest and the interests of peace. But I do think Israel has not only a right but also a responsibility to respond to the Hezbollah attack."

.........


When a constituent at the Wisconsin session criticized both the Palestinians and the Israeli government for taking a "dysfunctional" approach to the conflict and said the U.S. needed to "lean on Israel" to change its behavior, Feingold offered a different view.

"There's blame to go around for everybody," he said, but he argued that Israel had been acting constructively in recent years and blamed Hezbollah, Iran and Syria for provoking the current crisis.

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I agree with Feingold

[still_one]

39. oh no, Israel is always wrong

how dare they even fought in the 67 and 73 war when their neighbors wanted to throw them in the sea

Note this is scarcasm...

[NJ Democrats]

66. Same here

I fully agree with Feingold and I fully and totally support Israel.

[CuteNFuzzy]

212. Do you support bombing fleeing refugees and children?

[wordpix2]

219. do you support Hezbollah's 13,000 missiles raining down on Israel to

annihilate the entire country and all its inhabitants?

[lonestarnot]

228. Me me.

[Dutch]

103. I completely agree with Feingold too.

On this and most issues.

[Vinca]

109. I agree with Feingold, too.

Israel had more of a bona fide reason to launch an attack than King George did.

[mallard]

215. Re: You might think otherwise...

...if your concerns were to include those who're suffering at the moment without reasonable cause, all because of a rush to announce intent, declare and wage war with a full-scale military attack, all at once and without warning. But we are supposed to care about Israelis, not about Palestinians or Lebanese. This is NOT the way to work out minor skirmishes or present a reasonable position for dialogue when you are an occupying power and you're dealing with victims of displacement. War is not the only option, happens to be more brutal than helpful and as the record clearly INDICATES, war leads to more war! This one-sided, pro-Israel-no-matter-what drive shouldn't be emerging from a representative with a personal stake in foreign politics, either.

You're with Russ Feingold in supporting Israel's right to bully entire populations (using terror) into whatever unstated conditions of 'mutual respect' might EVER emerge to suit them well enough to regard the people they are currently carrying out death sentences on as human beings with another side of the story. These are real genuine terrorists Israel is nailing, we are to believe, and there won't be ANY MORE after this because all survivors will shun the trappings of their own destruction - instaed of seeking revenge.

They and people like yourself have us thinking it's about the good guys who 'defend' themselves vs the bad guys who want to destroy Israel. That is not only an unproven hypothesis, observations of who's doing the primary harm suggest an error in the American model of dignified Zionism (that's been artificially installed).

We support Israel beyond mere interest in genuine regional stability based on balance of regional concerns. Where are the voices of the (friendly) Lebanese gov't to balnce the Israeli rhetoric getting 85% media air time?

The Israelis could have consulted Beirut, first. They instead chose to screw Lebanon hard over some very minor border incidents, and the treatment DOES only deserve 'reciprocation', which apparently Israel believes it can skirt or use for even more escaltion. This (bombing campaign) departure from observing the sovereignty of a generally peaceful neighbor - still recovering from earlier upheaval and invasion - is painfully disgusting.

It's really not cool killing innocent people left and right for anyone, even the Israelis trying to get back a couple of missing soldiers, in the long-run.

It's NOT forgivable, either.

[TankLV]

157. Same here.

Unprovoked coordinated attack on Israli soil by the TERRORIST organizaion.

Seems simple enough.

[barb162]

159. same here!

[Andromeda]

166. I agree with all the above.

[Radioactive]

173. I dont know how you can agree

This has been a major overreaction from Israel, perhaps you have been swayed by the biased news networks. Sad!

[muryan]

192. I havent been watching the news networks

Ive been reading reports offered from both sides of the conflict. As a result I support israel in their course of action. I also find it funny how the news networks are so "biased" but i only see that on the fringes of the political spectrum. If they are that close to the middle of the road i should watch them more often.

[OKthatsIT]

188. Oh now wait a minute...do you really think the US would rescue its own?

Honestly...I hope Feingold realizes Israel is on the Globalists 'Hit List' of countries to be 'restructured'.

Of course, Bush wants to see 'Temple on the Mount' destroyed, so he's game. He knows that would put the final nail in the coffin for Israel.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Well, I guess he's on the "wrong" side of this issue around here.

Nonetheless, good for him, and I agree.

[wakeme2008]

3. Russ Feingold is a War Loving jerk

:grr:

[rodeodance]

6. rather a broadstroke for Russ isn't it?

[wakeme2008]

8. Go take a look at the pictures of children killed by Israel again

and then think about somebody supporting that.

[BushOut06]

23. What about children killed by Hezbollah and Hamas?

There have been quite a few of those over the years. Once again, I suppose Israel is supposed to just bend over and take it up the ass.

[wellst0nev0ter]

69. Actually, Israel Killed More Children Than Hezbollah And Hamas

but I guess those children had to give up their lives in order for Israel to be secure, right?

[earthside]

76. Fifteen-to-One

I read that somewhere ...

It takes fifteen Palestinian children's lives to equal one Israeli child's life.

[wellst0nev0ter]

84. Geez, that bad?

I thought it was 2-1. Ho well. . .

[Marie26]

154. Please stop. nt

[saberjet22]

145. counting dead children

I can't believe what I see here. How many dead children is ok? What's the permissible quota? If our allies kill more children than our enemies, does that make them better, or less bad, than our enemies? And vice-versa?
People, can't you see how grotesque you are in your attitudes?
NO dead children is the way it ought to be.
As for dead adults, the same holds true. But then that would mean, is it possible?, no more war. No more war? Naaah. It's the human condition, it's our way of life, if you'll pardon a bad joke. See, heh heh, war is our way of life, our culture of life hinges on inflicting death.
Is it time to slice the pig yet?
Forgive me if I digress.
Let's barbecue Bush the Pig, and serve it on a bed of bullshit, the Republican Delicacy of the Month.

[Andromeda]

167. got a link?

[BushOut06]

81. Is there any proof that Israel is actively targeting children?

Or perhaps it's because groups like Hezbollah and Hamas deliberately set up camp in very densely populated areas, knowing damned well that ANY Israeli action against them will result in civilian deaths - including children?

Posts like yours make it sound like Israel is deliberatly targeting Palestinian nurseries or daycare centers. Although there have been times in the past when Palestinian terrorists have deliberately targeted Israeli children. But hey, those types of attacks don't really make international headlines, do they? There's no outrage over those attacks.

[wellst0nev0ter]

83. From "A Gaza Diary"

LINK

It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's cunt!"

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

And I find out that this afternoon Israelis bombed two cars full of families fleeing the area under attack. The Israelis' excuse: "they should have ran out sooner."

So go ahead, make all the moral equivalencies you want, say that it's what's best for Israel, you can't escape the cold fact that the IDF makes a deadly habit of targeting civilians.

[wordpix2]

223. this wouldn't be a one-sided report from an "occupied Palestine" site,

would it? Oh no, that would never happen at an "occupied Palestine" website, I'm sure. :sarcasm:

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=113

The Palestinian refugee camps are no doubt horrible places in which to grow up and the world should help these kids and families but that does not justify Hezbollah amassing 10,000 missiles and sending some to destroy Israel.

The article describes terrible living conditions with 8 children and their parents all living in a one-room concrete shack. I suppose it's all Israel's fault that the Palestinians do not use birth control and live in such crowded conditions. :sarcasm:

[eagler]

96. Israel air-dropped leaflets warning civilians to evacuate

before they started bombing military targets

[darkgrrl]

108. .Israel told Civilians to evacuate the village of Marwaheen and then...

...Israeli missiles targetted the evacuating civilians:

"According to witnesses and photographs from the scene of the worst incident, an Israeli missile incinerated a car and a small truck full of families leaving their Lebanese border village of Marwaheen near Tyre after the Israeli army used loudhailers to tell residents they had just hours to go. Pictures showed charred bodies of children strewn across the road."


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1821706,00.html

Moral high ground, huh?

[Marie26]

127. There's no moral high ground here.

I think it's pretty ridiculous how people are comparing the ratio of murdered children to try to prove their relative points. Any murdered child is bad. Any organization that kills civilians & children in the midst of its war has lost the moral high ground. And that includes both of the combatants here.

[mikelgb]

128. FUCK THE ISRAELI FASCIST GOVT AND HEZBOLLAH TERRORISM

violence is never the solution no matter who does it 'first' or 'most' this fucking "yeah but Hezbollah did it first" bullshit has GOT to stop

[bdamomma]

218. they are targeting civilians, innocent civilians

[Andromeda]

164. At least Israel isn't targeting children,

like Hamas and Hezbollah do.

[Andromeda]

169. Prove it. Provide a link to back up your statement.

[toopers]

174. Maybe the terrorists shouldn't surround themselves with . . .

children and other civilians!

[wordpix2]

221. One reporter from Lebanon said people are paid to house rockets &

missiles that are raining down on Israel. So what is Israel supposed to do---just let the WMD be launched from Lebanese cities and towns and be sitting ducks?

I do sympathize with the Lebanese people who are so poor and perhaps frightened by the militants that they accept payments to house missiles. It's difficult to know whether they do this because they support Hezbollah, just need the money or are bullied into it.

I say STOP THE WAR and let's help the poor.

[treestar]

123. Is the other side supposed to? This gets you nowhere with

people who don't have a stake in either side. When your side says or or when the other side says it - it makes no impression any longer, except that it's always the excuse for more. Guess what? We don't care any more who started it.

Geez, it's like dealing with two children.

[bilgewaterbill]

138. I notice the lack of response to that. Typical. nt

[Tesha]

172. It might be interesting to post the actual numbers. (NT)

[saltpoint]

7. Feingold's constituents, if asked to describe him definitionally,

might not choose that description of their junior senator.

I could be wrong.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

57. As a constituent

I can say that he has let us down (big time) on a number of important issues. I am not sure where he is coming from and therefore am not gaga over him like some here are.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumpy]

93. I should have changed the wording

in my second sentence. I certainly did not intend to include myself as one who would retaliate against any country using the tactics employed by Israel. Sloppy wording on my part. If you read my posts on this subject you would agree that I am not in accord with Israel's continual usage of heavy handed onslaughts that result in destruction of innocent lives. I am one who has felt sympathy for the Palestinian people who have suffered lose of life, land and livelyhood by Israel's push for domination of the 'holy land'. Of course I also feel sympathy for the innocents in Israel who have suffered loss because of Israeli inept and unfeeling leadership.

[saltpoint]

65. I'm not asking you or anyone else to be ga-ga over Russ Feingold,

but he was elected, was he not, by a majority of the votes in the State of Wisconsin.

I didn't care for the John Ashcroft vote myself, but I don't think it's reasonable to nail the man to a board just because he casts a vote against my personal bias.

His statement regarding the current Middle East crisis is his to make. He doesn't phone me up to get my ok on what he says and does.

That's my point.

[mallard]

246. Re: Feingold's position

"His statement regarding the current Middle East crisis is his to make."

There's too much at stake for semantics. You either agree with the policy he's backing or see what's obviously wrong with it, and what's wrong with the rubber-stamp approval of whatever damage-based 'positive' results Israel produces that come from our 'selected' government loyalists to a foreign power.

Here's the most telling acid test of the limits of Americsn support for Israel as to whether you support imperial hegemony or want the war and escalted killing campaigns to be mutually collapsed, as sooner or later they will have to be anyway - but you don't seem to want anything demeaning of Mr Feingold said or to be carried over on this one 'isolated' issue. Mr Feingold is a very serious part of the problem when he could be party to the solution.

Will you think of him when the price of gas hits the next milestone in August - not.

It's overboard just killing in order to execute death sentences without trial, and there are also other ways to elicit local cooperation than by destroying vital infrastructure.

The war supporters are hindering global civilized development with this staged option to invade and ruin the recovering Lebanese nation. Very, very not nice, Russ.

Bad Russ.

Let me guess; you don't generally like war, but feel it's important to support Israel.

[Freddie Stubbs]

179. Perhaps he is simply supporting the Democratic Party Platform

[muryan]

193. What a novel idea n/t

[wordpix2]

222. On issues involving Israel's relations with its neighbors, Feingold is

no doubt "coming from" supporting Israel's right to exist, which Hezbollah does not agree with. Israel left Lebanon 15 yrs. ago with the understanding that the Lebanese gov would control Hezbollah and its attacks into Israeli territory.

For whatever reason, the Lebanese gov has not done that and Hezbollah has amassed 10,000 to 13,000 missiles, which are now raining down on Israel.

Feingold supports Israel's right to exist; ergo, he supports Israel's right to fight back. Why is this unreasonable?

[rodeodance]

113. I am a constituant -and the last thing I would call him is a warhawk!

[saltpoint]

131. Hey there, rodeodance. If you're one of Feingold's constituents, you

are worlds luckier, seems to me, than Oklahomans or Texas or Alabamans, etc. Those people have to put up with a macabre horde of far right-wing monsters, and you get Russ Feingold.

He's one of about 30 or so people with any chance at all of being our next president, and I wouldn't be uncomfortable with him in there one bit.

In fact, can he start immediately? I'm not at ease over the current batch of folks in the White House...

[eowyn_of_rohan]

139. Right and true...

I posted this in a way to suggest I thought he might be a warhawk. Didn't mean to give that impression. Still though, I do not respect some of the votes he has cast, and I haven't forgiven him for not at least standing up and saying something in support of Barbara Boxer's objection to the certification of Ohio’s electoral votes...

[DianaForRussFeingold]

17. Sorry! I have to disagree!

:hi: "My hope would be that Israel would use as much restraint as possible" Feingold

[wakeme2008]

20. Go take a look at the pictures of children killed by Israel again

and Russ is supporting that. :grr:

[saigon68]

105. Russ also has his corporate masters

Amazing isn't it.

[gizmo1979]

119. Name them.

who is he beholden to?

[saigon68]

153. look who's someone's butt boy at #11

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=Q05&cycle=2004

[muryan]

194. Better israel than hamas

or hezbollah.

[IndianaGreen]

205. What's the difference between them? They all kill civilians for GAWD!

They are so busy killing each other that they don't realize that they are digging their own graves.

[muryan]

208. In all seriousness

I don't view Isreals actions as an extention of religious fundementalism, but rather a sense of self preservation. Im fairly certain im not alone in that view either.

[IndianaGreen]

209. What part of Israel's self-preservation justifies the bombing of hospitals

What part of Israel's "self-preservation" justifies the bombing of hospitals, grain elevators, lighthouse, caravans of fleeing civilians, etc?

Israel is engaging in the same collective punishment tactics that the US does in Iraq. We can't condemn Bush for what he does in Iraq while giving Israel a pass for doing the same thing in Lebanon.

Published on Monday, July 17, 2006 by the Guardian / UK
The West Must Recognize That Israel's Agenda is in Conflict With its Own
The Olmert government, Hezbollah, and Hamas are tacitly united in rejection of any moves towards a peace compromise

by David Clark

It's high time western governments grasped the fundamental truth that Israel is pursuing an agenda that conflicts directly with their own. In the context of the fight against terrorism and the need to promote international cooperation, the west's interest must be to remove the Palestinian question as a source of grievance among mainstream Muslims in a way that guarantees justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel. A settlement of this kind is perfectly feasible and has been outlined in countless documents and initiatives over the years, most recently in the Geneva accords. But the main reason it has proved illusive is that Israel is not, and never has been, prepared to make the territorial compromises required. It still believes that it is entitled to the victor's spoils by annexing large tracts of Palestinian land.

This situation will persist as long as the west remains in denial about the reasons for the ongoing conflict and until the Israeli political establishment is forced to pay a price for its obstinacy. Yet the US remains entirely complicit in its role as Israel's main strategic ally. In the midst of last Friday's onslaught, in which Israeli bombers killed dozens of Lebanese civilians, the Pentagon announced the export of $210m of aviation fuel to help Israel "keep peace and security in the region." Even Britain and other European countries indulge in a form of diplomatic misdirection by focusing one-sidedly on the roles played by Syria and Iran.

The key to resolving the situation in Lebanon lies, as it did throughout the 1970s and 1980s, in finding a solution to the Palestinian question. A viable and successful Palestinian state would rob Hezbollah and its sponsors of the conceit that they are defending helpless Muslims and make it easier for those in the region who oppose them to gain the upper hand. Mahmoud Abbas is the only leader currently working for the kind of negotiated two-state solution the Middle East and the wider world desperately need. But he is being let down by the west at the moment when he had earned the right to expect better. The Palestinian president needs a partner for peace. If Israel will not play that role, the international community must.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0717-26.htm

[me b zola]

58. ok.

So he's a war loving jerk. That is why Feingold is one of the few Senators to vote against the IWR and the only Senator to vote against the patriot act. It is actually his secret plan that by stating that our troops need to come home this year he can be pounded relentlessly by other war mongers in both parties there-by making the public more inclined to support the war on Iraq. Yes, that must be it. </sarc off>


It's fine to disagree with Senator Feingold on his statement, but please put away the broad brush.

[Raydawg1234]

63. But Fiengold is one of the only people to vote against GW2

[gizmo1979]

118. He was the only one to vote against the war in

Iraq.He is one of the only Senators to stand up and say"get the troops home now".Yet you call him a hawk come on.If someone launched rockets at us don't we have the right to retaliate?

[saskatoon]

141. war loving--yes

and at one time I was rooting for him, thought he was special. Another idol gone down.

[Peeves]

206. What would you do if a militant group sent rockets into your backyard?

? :dunce: ?

[Zynx]

256. Ummm...Okay. Do you even know how he voted on the IWR?

The Patriot Act? Any hawkish legislation?

[IndianaGreen]

4. Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime.

ADC noted that Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states, "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. Pillage is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited." Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime.

American-Arab calls for halt to Israeli military rampage
Lebanon-Israel-USA, Politics, 7/14/2006

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/060714/2006071419.html

Council of Europe: Israeli aggression on Lebanon inappropriate
Lebanon-Israel-European Union, Politics, 7/14/2006

The Council of Europe, the pan-European human rights body, yesterday criticized Israelis aggression in Lebanon as "inappropriate and counterproductive."

"I support the objective of the Israeli government to free captured Israeli soldiers and protect Israeli citizens from terrorist attacks, but the Israeli methods are inappropriate and
counterproductive," said Terry Davis, Secretary General of the Strasbourg-based Council.

"Deliberate destruction of the infrastructure in the Gaza Strip, indiscriminate retaliation affecting civilians, and military operations against non-military installations in neighboring Lebanon are unlikely to help the liberation of Corporal Gilad Shalit and his colleagues or deter future terrorist actions against Israel," he said.

Davis said these methods will further destabilize the situation in the region and undermine the already fragile prospects for a lasting peaceful political solution.

Switzerland as recently as days ago said Israel's attacks on civilians are a violation of international humanitarian law, which means a violation of the Geneva Convention. The UN civil rights committee has voted to start an investigation into Israel's actions.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/060714/2006071405.html

[DELUSIONAL]

14. Thanks for reminding us -- that all nations should play by the same rules

[The Stranger]

34. And one that receives billions in U.S. aid is not playing by the rules.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Well, neither do we!

The reason I hate war is because it never accomplishes anything except wanton death and destruction.

I Israel wanted those IDF prisoners, it could have done so without killing innocent Lebanese.

[lumpy]

61. The IDF is supposed to be superior

in pinpointing the enemy with the help of their outstanding undercover anti-terror group, Mossad. Looks like they want to draw Iran, Syria and Bush's USA into the fray and settle everything once and for all. Sad.

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

94. Mossad is far from an anti-terror group

Fear is their stock and trade.
Assasinations and kidnapping are their calling card.

[lumpy]

99. They are listed as a counter-terrorism

group, covert action and yes, assasination, kidnapping and paramilitary group.

[barb162]

162. Why is the IDF supposed to be superior?

I am sure if they knew where all the thousands of Hez. rockets are, they'd take them out. Maybe the Lebanese government could help out on that instead of kissing Hezbollah's ass. I think the last thing Israel wants to do is draw more nations into this. Israel is a tiny, tiny country

[barb162]

161. What rules? the rules of war? suicide bomber rules?

[The Straight Story]

77. Question is - how will makes them if they don't? (nt)

[Marie26]

88. It's all war crimes

All of this. I'm starting to think international law is completely meaningless. It's ignored by everyone, beginning w/the Leader of the Free World.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. If Israeli bombs blew up a building full of pre-schoolers

There would be forty posters on these boards reminding us that Hezbollah have killed their share of children.

That such a response is an extraordinary non sequitor would occur to not a one of them.

[BayCityProgressive]

9. it isn't collective punishment

Hezbollah controls parts of Lebanon and has many elected representitives in the government along with it's militant wing. If a part of the government of another country attacks you, you have the right to respond.

[enigmacat]

19. Absolutely

"If a part of the government of another country attacks you, you have the right to respond."

So, I guess, since the ENTIRE government of Israel is attacking Palestine and Lebanon, they have a right to respond. Good point!

[BayCityProgressive]

24. um

Palestine and Lebanon already have attacked. You are a little slow on the uptake.

[alcibiades_mystery]

107. But now they can attack again, with your full consent

Good for the gander, yes?

[IndianaGreen]

25. So Bin Laden was justified in attacking the US on 9-11

It was okay to kill all those innocent people on the WTC for the crimes of their government.

Wow! I just love how much we have embraced Bin Laden's philosophy!

[anotherdrew]

27. it IS collective punishment. you're too damn brainwashed to see

open yer eyes

[BayCityProgressive]

44. yup

I don't agree with you so I am brainwashed. Great argument

[Zhade]

72. Well, you're wrong. It's collective punishment.

NT!

[barb162]

160. War is collective punishment

And I think what's happening is war.

[Andromeda]

165. You're the one who's brainwashed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. I will repeat once again

If Israeli bombs blew up a building full of preschoolers, the usual responses would be had, and they would remain non sequitors. There is no action Israel could take that wouldn't be met with the same tired justifications. It is impossible for Israeli military policy to perform an action that would be unjustified in its supporters eyes. And it is as simple as that.

[Marie26]

87. Doesn't that go both ways?

If someone posted about the damage Hizbollah has done, there'd be lots of responses about how awful Israel's actions have been. Both responses seem pretty pointless.

[alcibiades_mystery]

104. Yes, I suppose so

But far fewer...

[Marie26]

126. Really?

Check out the thread on the Haifa rocket attack by Hizbollah. 70% of the responses talk about how awful Israel's actions have been, as if that's a justification. I don't deny that Israel has knee-jerk support among most US leaders & the MSM. But sometimes it seems like there's an equal knee-jerk reaction against Israel in liberal/progressive circles, as well. Basically, I feel like blind support for either side here (Israel or Hizbollah) is kind of simplistic. There's no good guys here, as much as we'd like to find one.

[alcibiades_mystery]

136. I have zero interest in finding good guys

Nor do I have any interest in supporting Hezbollah or justfying their actions. It is de rigeur, however, to say THAT, whatever your feelings on the matter, while it is perfectly acceptable to support Israel without question.

[Marie26]

149. Neither should be acceptable, IMO.

I'm not even sure what my point is here. I'm just reacting badly to the endless "Yeah, but HE did it TOO!" excuses that are tossed around by both sides. Like another poster said, it reminds me of a bunch of whiny five-year-olds (with automatic weapons & an army).

[The Wielding Truth]

146. Yep, my opinion too. When countries go after each other like wounded

bear shouldn't other world leaders urge each side to pull up and start negotiations? Bush is doing the opposite almost encouraging Israel to escalate the violence. Middle East has been a tinder box for so long should * be suppling the spark?

[Marie26]

151. You'd think

But it seems like Bush, and Iran, are just feeding the flames. I think Bush sees Israel as a proxy that can start invading the countries in his little "Axis of Evil," so he's not going to try to stop this war. Clinton or Carter would be intensely negotiating, acting as a broker, trying to find an agreement to end this firestorm. Bush just stands aside & watches the fire burn.

[IndianaGreen]

158. Those are excellent points you are making, Marie26

Bush has been AWOL for 6 years! The only time he ever set foot in the Middle East was for a photo-op with Abu Mazen, then he took off on Air Force One never to be seen again!

Bush is the first American President in my lifetime that has been totally detached from the problems in the Middle East. Clinton would have been on the phone trying to resolve this problem from the time Gilad Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas, and in all likelihood from way before Hamas won the PA elections.

It is Bush that allowed things to fester to such a point that even progressives in America are divided on the question of Israel's viability, something that would have been unheard of a decade ago.

[Malikshah]

73. Then...uh....does that mean...that the US can attack Israel

after the USS Liberty attack?

Or that the Palestinians can do the exact same at the exact same level as the Israelis? The Lebanese too?

The logic makes it more difficult for Israel, though...

[AliceWonderland]

137. Yes, that is collective punishment

Not to mention hypocrisy and a double standard.

Is it acceptable to target civilian areas because of strategic utility? I find the distinction between killing innocents deliberately and killing innocents knowingly increasingly weak as time goes by. The first time, say, you launch a military helicopter attack against an apartment building, you might get away with using that one. When it becomes old hat, a modus operandi well known, then not so much.

Someone else brought up 911. Is it acceptable to hold citizens responsible for the actions of their government? I truly, truly do not think that is a path of logic any American should wish to travel.

I dunno, I know any criticism of Israel is beoming synonymous with wanting to wipe poor little Israel off the face of the earth. I'm an advocate of human rights and therefore I believe in everyone's right to peace and stability, and a life without structural violence. That includes an Israeli, a Palestinian, a Lebanese, you name it. However, from that perspective, what REALLY bothers me is the mainstream one-sidenedness in discourse and the underlying suggestion of racism. The underlying suggestions seems ever, there is no such thing as an innocent Arab. It's either, "there was a leaflet!" or "they people in the apartment building should have spoken out about terrorism!" or "what is Israel to dooooo!" or "we are good and righteous and don't mean to kill subhuman ragheads, ahem, good Iraqi citizens, so when they die it's not our fault!" or something like that. That's the road to hell, not even paved with good intentions... rather, paved with atrocities and apathy while we click to ESPN when we're tired of watching evil brown people die.

Damn, I HATE war. It's the opposite of life.

[Marie26]

152. Sure it is

I can even understand targeting Hizbollah militia installations, but Israel is targeting the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon. Ports, airports, bridges, Lebanese gov. buildings etc. It's collective punishment aimed at inflicting so much suffering that Lebanon will be forced to act against Hizbollah itself. In this war, almost all of the casualties have been civilians. It's so cowardly & inhumane.

[enigmacat]

11. You are right

And, I have already seen similar posts to the ones you describe. If you point out that Lebanese hospitals are being bombed, you have certain posters jump to the defense of Israel with the exact reason you stated: Hezbollah has done it.

[BayCityProgressive]

15. if hospitals are attacked

with innocent people inside...you are right that is wrong no matter who does it. You can support a nation and still point out it's faults.

[treestar]

122. IA, no one cares who started it any more and neither side sounds

like they are doing anything but excusing themselves and blaming the other. Well, they did it to us before. Yeah, we know. Both sides have been at it for decades.

[Zynx]

257. Israel does not target schools.

Israel does not target Lebanese for genocide. Hezbollah targets all Jews for genocide. You tell me which is worse.

[Pastiche423]

10. There goes my hope

for his candidacy for president.

[BayCityProgressive]

12. oh please

:eyes:

[Pastiche423]

29. on please, what?

[enigmacat]

13. Mine too

:-(

[muryan]

191. If you want to vote for a candidate

that is anti-israel and its policies, you might have to look outside the democratic party. Im glad the top democrats are being reasonable about the situation and supporting a country that is all alone in the international community. The democratic party cannot adopt a stance of completely anti-war anti-violence just because of the iraq war. Every reasonable person knows that violence is sometimes necessary especially to defend oneself.

[ShortnFiery]

197. "violence is sometimes necessary"

The Prince of Peace, Jesus, would disagree with your analysis. :hi:

[muryan]

207. I disagree

The violence that was his crucifiction was very necessary in his eyes, that is if my fundamental understanding of the view of the bible is correct.

[ShortnFiery]

210. You missed the point ... he was the victim of all that hate and violence

he accepted this so that our Sins could be forgiven.

If it was not for the EVIL part of our free-will we would NOT have crucified "The Prince of Peace." The Crucifixion was necessary but for very unfortunate base reasons in human nature ... he freely accepted our wrath (HATE) on The Cross so that we will have a chance for redemption.

Read what Jesus represented for his followers, violence was NOT a part of his nature, nor any part of his teachings (parables). No, knocking over the tables of "the money changers" in The Temple does NOT count because he harmed NOT a soul. :hi:

[saltpoint]

18. I think you should reserve judgment, withhold criticism, and see how

Senator Feingold plays his hand in coming weeks and months.

He enters intelligently into any discussion I've ever seen him in. He elevates public discourse. If you are a Feingold voter, stick with your guy.

He's worth it.

[Pastiche423]

32. You have every right to withhold criticism

And I have every right to be very disappointed. After seeing what Israel has done to innocent citizens, IMHO, his comments were saddening.

Btw, I have always looked forward to your reasoned posts. Even when I don't agree.

[saltpoint]

38. I think that the circumstances that have gotten us to where we are in

the Middle East are beyond any simple solution.

I certainly don't claim to have any on hand.

I can't think of a shred of news in yesterday's and today's New York TIMES on the Middle East that isn't saddening. All of it is, start to finish, top to bottom, through and through -- it is emotionally overwhelming and defeating.

But we've lived through two Democratic administrations -- Carter's and Clinton's -- during which peaceful resolution to violent conflict in the Middle East held primacy in U.S. foreign policy. Achieved agreements were imperfect, but the product of concerted strivings toward peace and dignity for all people in that part of the world.

And there was a great amount of historical awareness among the principals forging those agreements.

All that is absent with the Bush administration, which is either clueless and insensitive or furtive and manipulative in the present crisis.

I am not in favor of anyone being bombed, under any flag whatsoever. But I am very suspicious of one-issuing U.S. Senators. That isn't fair. Feingold is one of our guys. He suits up in the blue uniform and is entitled to his expression of the crisis' conditions and terms, whether I agree with him or not. He was literally elected to do that by his constituents. If we trash everyone who steps on the wrong path now and then, we wind up with a Senate full of vacuous assholes like Orrin Hatch, Tom Coburn, and Jeff Sessions. We have more than enough of those than we need already.

I say we trust Russell Feingold to play this one based on his instincts.

Thank you for the civil words in your post; may I extend the same courtesy back? The DU boards sanction a commerce of ideas. It's clear you value that and are holding up your end of the bargain, and then some.

[IndianaGreen]

40. Bush has been AWOL for 6 years in the Middle East

He didn't want to put time and effort on a risky peace process, preferring instead to pursue his dreams of outdoing his daddy by conquering Baghdad.

This is why Israel is bombing Lebanon today, because the US has been AWOL for 6 years.

[saltpoint]

43. In the posts I've made about Bush, I've failed to be as severe with him

on his abandonment of Middle East policy as he deserves.

You rightly return the blame to his doorstep. He and his shallow, cynical administration has had 6 years, just as you say, and they have wasted them.

"Bomb and Abandon" is not a foreign policy.

I do not feel that the violence of this week in the Middle East would have occurred, or if it occurred would have been as explosive, under responsible and ethical U.S. foreign policy -- under a President Gore or a President Kerry, for example -- and so your charge against Bush rings very true to me. We can fill in the name of most Democrats, in fact, not only duly-elected Gore and Kerry, and still the blame should fall on Bush.

It's his presidency, and he should be held accountable.

[Sapphocrat]

46. One thing I still don't understand...

Why did Israel decide to attack now? The U.S. is the only nation on earth Israel knows will rush to its side, right or wrong, and right now the U.S. is in no position whatsoever to extend its military, anywhere.

Maybe my thinking is just too simplistic here, but the U.S. being "AWOL for 6 years" (and I agree with you on that) makes Israel extremely vulnerable. I just don't understand Israel's timing -- and I don't buy the idea that this war has anything to do with a couple of kidnapped soldiers.

I am genuinely puzzled.

[leftchick]

55. a clean break

The PNAC agenda. It is all spelled out there and seems to be unfolding as I type. The deal with the US not being in a position does not matter to the power hungry Likud/Neo-con PNAC freaks.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Perhaps Israel knows that the US weakens each day it stays in Iraq

America will be much weaker next year than now, and weaker the year following that, as our military is decimated and demoralized by the Long War.

[Marie26]

95. Don't know

Maybe it was just a good excuse for launching a campaign that's been in the works for awhile to totally eliminate Hezbollah. But I just wanted to ask another question that's been puzzling me. I don't get why Hezbollah conducted this initial border raid now. They saw how Isreal was basically devestating the Gaza strip after one Israeli soldier was captured there. They had to know what the reaction would be if they captured 2 more soldiers in southern Lebanon. Were they trying to force a confrontation, create a war, or just get an exchange of prisoners? Or maybe they thought Israel was too distracted by Gaza to bother attacking Hezbollah? Why do that now?

[CJCRANE]

147. Maybe

some guy with a duffle-bag full of cash came along to Hezbollah and said "psst, here's a hundred grand, we need you to do this little favour for us..."

And that's why * looked as please a punch the other day at the press conference and couldn't stop talking about the celebratory pork roast.

(BTW that's not a serious suggestion, just sometimes it's hard to tell who's really pulling the strings. Then you find out twenty years later...)

[Marie26]

150. Who knows?

That's pretty off the wall, but I'm really curious about what the answer is. Hizbollah captured these soldiers after they'd already seen Israel brutally retaliate against the Gaza strip. They must have known this was coming. Why provoke an enraged bear, you know? Maybe they thought that they have the firepower to take on Israel, or maybe they just thought the US/Isreal was too distracted to respond. Like you said though, we probably won't ever know all the motivations here.

[michreject]

36. There goes my hope for his candidacy for president...[/quote]

He is the hope for the future. I will back him any and every way.

[lumpy]

64. Feingold has no diplomatic skills

apparently. He could have expressed the desire for a peacefull solution or ceasefire and refrained from condoning IDF's actions.

[wellst0nev0ter]

70. Eh, Wellstone Was A Big Israeli Apologist Too

didn't keep me from voting for him.

[Pachamama]

91. Well, he just got the US Jewish vote with that!

:hi:

I don't necessarily see his statement as an all out embracing of Israel's full actions. And while I disagree with him on this issue, I agree with Russ on 99.9% of other issues, so he's still got my vote.

[IntiRaymi]

132. He still has mine, as well

But, I think that the man understands that he has political capital to spend, and he is doing it.

[Nihil]

241. Whoop-de-doo.

I'm so glad that votes are more important than lives.
That has been Blair's approach and it's obvious where he has learned it.

Make some carefully-engineered statement to capture the Jewish vote.
Make another carefully-engineered statement to capture the anti-Jewish vote.
Go for the consultant-guided policy to gain the labor vote.
Spout a subtle view to re-capture the board-level vote.
Fit those policy statements to the spreadsheet!

Feingold is no better and no worse than the others in the same league
so I'm not picking on him per se, just sickened with the totally false
facade of democracy that has evolved to date ... not "what the people want"
but rather "what the people can be persuaded to tolerate".

"The people" deserve everything they get.

[Freddie Stubbs]

180. Why? he is simply supporting the Democratic position

[cal04]

16. Q&A: Biden on Israeli actions: 'Totally justifiable'

As the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware has long played a role in shaping U.S. policy on the Middle East. Following are portions of an interview with Biden conducted yesterday by Chris Mondics of The Inquirer's Washington bureau.

Question: Do you view the Israeli invasions and air strikes as being proportionate to the kidnappings and killings of Israeli soldiers?

A: It is totally justifiable and tactically understandable. What would we do if we were bombarded from Mexico and Canada?

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/15043460.htm?source=rss&channel=inquirer_nation

[IndianaGreen]

21. Does Biden advocate bombing Ottawa and Mexico City

as punishment from mortars fired from the border?

Biden is an ignorant motherfucker!

[saigon68]

68. Biden is a MotherFucker

And the Senator from MBNA who exploits the poor

He is a Corporate Banker SHILL

[muryan]

195. If those cities are controlled and overrun

with the militia responsible for firing those mortars? sure.

[eagler]

97. I have to agree with Biden on this one

nt

[Zhade]

102. So you're okay with murdering children.

Gotcha.

[gizmo1979]

121. You are all nuts.

Russell is one of our only voices in the Senate and because you disagree with him on one issue you are ready to throw him to the Wolves.You people amaze me.Is it any wonder we can't win anything?

[Biernuts]

247. It's NO wonder. 100 people with 75 Single Issue votes won't

elect the town dog catcher. We might as well give up now. At least the repubs know what they stand for.

On a point that war is NEVER justified, just ask the countries that would be speaking German and Japanese had the allies not fought back.

Ask a black American if the civil was was worth it. After all, slavery would have petered out on it's own after a few more centuries.

If you can read this, thank a teacher - If you prefer reading it in English, thank a soldier.

[barb162]

163. me too

Israel has no choice but to defend itself from unprovoked attacks

[keroro gunsou]

204. israel does have a choice

their choice is proportional response versus overkill.

they'd be better off targetting the actual people responsible, rather than everyone else. tends to drive up recruitment for the groups they want to stop.

mossad is not that brain-dead that they couldn't find out who did it and quietly remove them from the gene pool.

israel's response is like trying to kill a cockroach by burning down one's house. all it does is leave you homeless and the cockroach annoyed.

[martymar64]

229. Unprovoked my ass

There's more than enough provocation to go around. For every family shelled on a beach in Gaza, for every schoolgirl gunned down by IDF snipers, for every act of vandalism and assault by illegal settlers against people and their crops, I'm sure you can name any number of outrages against Israelis, and you'd also be right. This has been going back and forth for the past sixty years or so.
Do you agree that Arabs also have a right to defend themselves or does that right belong exclusively to Israelis?

[ladjf]

22. His position statement on this matter may have gained him

some support in certain quarters, but, he lost a lot with me.(Not that it matters what I think)

[BayCityProgressive]

26. If Mexico or Canada

Fired anything over our border with the support of part or all of it's government..I wouldn't care if it killed anyone or not..an attack is an attack and I would want a response.

[sueragingroz]

54. The worst that you have to worry about from Canada

Is a bong bomb....

[bdamomma]

220. Welcome

you made it


:hi:

[ladjf]

71. Neither Lebanon or Palestine attacked Israel.

If an LA gang were to travel to Mexico and commit a crime against some Mexicans, that would not warrant going to war. There may be as many as 2,500 members in Hezbollah. They don't represent the Lebanese gvt.

[BushOut06]

82. Then who did?

Were those figments of Israel's imagination? C'mon, surely you know better than that. Hezbollah practically controls southern Lebanon, that's a pretty well established fact. What is Israel supposed to do, ignore Hezbollah completely? Are they supposed to ignore the thousands of rockets that Hezbollah has aimed at Israel?

I love this line of thinking - Hezbollah launch missiles at Israeli civilian targets. Israel goes to respond, then says "Gee gosh darn, we can't do anything because they're across the border! Oh well, let's go home and hope they behave".

[Trajan]

86. I think a measured response is valid ....

but this is spinning wildly out of control ....

Innocent blood is being spilt, and for what ? ... revenge ?

What strategic goal is satisfied with premeditated attacks on civilian neighborhoods ? ....

Israel's reaction is the SAME problem as the attacks by Hezbollah .. BOTH are asinine, animalistic and barbaric ..... BOTH actions, in mutual juxtaposition, are exactly what is WRONG with the Middle East ..... Hezbollah was wrong, and Israel is wrong ....

Russ is wrong as well ..... He has lost a certain measure of my respect today ....

[gizmo1979]

120. They are card carrying members

of the government.Both Hamas and Hezbollah have members in government.I would say that makes them culpable.They have headquarters in their respective regions,thus that is what you attack.

[ladjf]

148. Israel has attacked the airports, fuel dumps, gas stations,

houses, offices, bridges and anything else of strategic value in the civil infrastructure.

The Hezbollah original attack and the continue feeble rocket attacks make no sense to me in way that you look at it. Why would Hezbollah risk having Lebanon bombed by to 1996?

Here is the only thing that makes sense to me and if I am correct in would mean that in a convoluted way, Hezbollah and IDF are working together, at lest temporarily.

I believe that Hezbollah and Israel want to draw Syria and Iran into the conflict. They are hoping that with the military capabilities of the two countries, Israel could be defeated. (They would be wrong, of course.)

Israel would also like to see Syria and Iran jump into the fray. They know that in one way of the other, they could defeat both, especially with the assistance of the U.S. I believe that this would suit Bush just fine. If the IDF could stop Iran, it would not be necessary for the U.S. to attack.
But, if Israel were to start sustaining substantial loses, then the U.S. military would back them up.

What is it that the four parties think they would accomplish?

1. Israel, in one final big swoop, would be free from any challenges from Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Iran. At the same time, they would have been assisting the U.S. in Bush's goals. They figure that it's a no lose situation. (and in certain ways, that probably is true).

2. Hamas and Hezbollah figure that they have about a 1 chance in 10 to defeat Israel with the help of Syria, Iran and possibly some unexpected allies, i.e. China and Russia. Why would that take such bad odds as this? (1) They are desperate. A one in ten is better than nothing, which is what the think they now have and (2) They might have more allies, or think that they do, than is commonly known.

3. The U.S. could be rid of the Iranian bomb problem and possible get access to all of their oil without firing a shot or if necessary, some assistance to Israel in finishing them off.

This conflict is moving forward because all parties feel that they can win it.

In the long run, however, Israel, by it's brutal destruction of the Palestinian and Lebanese in fracture and the killing of many civilians has taken their asymmetrical punishment to a new level of arrogance and cruelty, all in the name of their overblown complaint about the "kidnapped" soldier.
The fact that no land forces are moving toward Lebanon shows that they don't intend to try to occupy.
Within weeks, the IDF will call off this campaign, leaving Palestine and Lebanon helplessly bankrupt and physically wiped out. It would take ten years to recover to the June status. That suits Israel fine.

But, here is the down side for Israel: this campaign and generated a new level of hatred by all Islamic people, plus sympathy for many others. Eventually, there will be retribution because that is the prime wish of millions of Muslims in the area. They will likely find a way to get pay back.
I'm not a military strategists so I can make no valid predictions about the form of the retribution.
If I am correct, it will mean that the current attacks on Palestine and Lebanon will turn out to be
more destructive to Israel than to the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

[nguoihue]

170. ladjf

Thoughtful analysis, summary and prediction of things to come.

Thanks for posting.

[muryan]

196. well..

:tinfoilhat: for you

[martymar64]

230. Quit with the hypotheticals and deal with the reality

This is REAL slaughter going on and for us to take any side is to legitimize the violence that side we happen to support perpetrates.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

28. Is any Senator critical of Israel?

Anyone support the resolution condemning Israel?

[IndianaGreen]

31. They all want to be reelected, and to do that they need $$$$$$

There is an organized PR effort to sucker the US into a war with Iran. Perhaps we should let the US take a step that would be the equivalent to Hitler's Operation Barbarossa and watch what's left of our military be broken by a protracted conflict in the Persian Gulf, not to mention the collapse of our own economy as energy prices reach astronomical levels.

Why would we listen to same people that called for war on Iraq?

[ixion]

30. Thanks, Russ, for furthering the cause of Barbarianism

:-(

[IndianaGreen]

35. Russ burning issue is cheese trading on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/06/07/20060714.html

I am sure it is an important issue for his constituency, but considering the indiscriminate bombing of Beirut and Lebanon by Israel, it seems somewhat petty.

[Malva Zebrina]

33. If Israel has a right to defend itself and is doing so with the sanctions

of those like Feingold, then let Israel take the plunge and declare a war on Lebanon, for Cheerist sake. Let Israel take care of that "war"--let Israel defend itslef by entering into a declared war on Lebanon. WTF is this chit for chat shit--a display of weaponry, which Israel has the obvious advantage.

GEt off the pot Israel and take care of your war. Declare war on Lebanon, take the plunge, and do what you think you needc to do. TAke it out.

Why won't Israel do that?

[lastknowngood]

37. But of course the Palestinians and Lebanese don't have that right

There are no Democrats left, they are all just instruments to the Israeli lobby. Is it any wonder extremist evolve against them.

[ShortnFiery]

184. "extremist evolve against them"

I now have "no idea" who I'm going to vote for President in 2008. :(

[Pepper32]

42. "There's blame to go around for everybody,"

Wow, they are recycling talking point from Katrina, I guess if it 'worked' then why not now? :nuke:

[whosinpower]

47. Well here is the crux of the matter

Israel, by its actions, is not defending itself.

It is exerting its military might on a sovereign nation and collectively attacking that nations infrastructure and peoples.

Israel has a right to defend itself - but what of the people it attacks, it oppresses, it villifies. What of the people it kidnaps? What of the families it targets and assasinates? A perfect example is the family that was annihilated on a beach having a picnic? What redress was there for that murder? They denied it even though international monitors have verified that it could only of been an israeli firing a large caliber shell that killed the family.

There was no outcry - or very very quiet here on the western front. And there was no consequences of that murder of an entire family. There was no acknowledgement and no apology. There was no compensation.

All we hear is poor Israel - but poor Israel has done some pretty horrible things - all in the name of self defense. And that arguement is old folly. The palistinians have no rights, no voice, no land, live in abject poverty, are separated with barriers, walls and military checkpoints.

It is clear to me that Israel seeks more land and power. Am I the only one who recognizes this is just the beginning of a military conquest?

More questions - are palistinians allowed to form their own party within Israel? Are they allowed to vote? Do they have a voice in Israeli politics considering they are occupying the same land? Can palistinians marry Israeli's or visa versa?

Hezbollah was born out of the ashes of a decade of Israeli occupation. When an opposing opinion has no voice in politics, no rights, no land, no job, no opportunity or methodolgy to address wrongs committed - what do we expect to happen? Well - history can help - terrorism is bred and thrives under such conditions.

I weep that it is so. I weep for Israel and I weep for Lebanon and all the wasted lives spent. I weep and then I get angry. Angry because Israel knows all too well what will occur and their gambit will cost countless lives. But lives don't account for much on the balance sheet of the military industrial complex. Fasten your seatbelts fans, cause America is going to war against Iran - and by proxy - Russia.

[cali]

53. Just to answer a couple of questions

Yes, Palestinians who are israeli citizens have the right to form their own political parties and have exercised that right. They also have seats in the Knesset. No, Palestinians in the Occupied territories do not have a voice in Israeli politics. As for H'zbollah having arisen due to the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, that's true, but their actions are not excused by that fact. What does bombing a Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires in 1994 killing 95 have to do with legitimate resistance?

[elfin]

48. And I repeat (as a WI. resident)

Russ is too short (5'7"?) , too divorced (twice) and sadly too Jewish in these times to merit serious consideration as a Pres. candidate.

I always vote for him, and cheer when he hits the philosophical mark -- but we in this state need much more than grandstanding to achieve a national presence. We are shifting red which is unbelievable given our Progressive history.

We haven't had a "real" Senator since Gaylord Nelson in my opinion. Kohl does some good stuff but stays off the radar to avoid being targeted as the gay that he is and Feingold is so enchanted with being a "maverick" and grabbing some headlines along the way that what good he does is lost because of it.

Just a mini-rant - sorry - I miss Gaylord.

[saigon68]

106. I miss Gaylord too.

He always had time to visit. Feingold does too, his problem is the leash that certain special interest groups have around his neck

He should have soft pedaled this thing, he chose instead to jump into the Bar fight between a couple of Drunks.

[PCIntern]

49. Maybe Russ is right...ever think of that?

Maybe, just maybe, Israel never did 'bomb a school with children' as the above hypothetical states. I love when people say, IF...THEN as though it had happened and were true. that's a Rethug trick, my friends, and doesn't wash.

Fact of the matter is that IN GENERAL, the Israelis targe specific sites which house military materiel and troops or terrorists. The fact that these 'folks' shoot rockets from residential communities shows exactly what kind of people you're all defending. If the Israelis had ever wanted to annihilate large groups of Palestinians, they would have done so. They actually have investigations, with significant repercussions for those who have disobyed orders, of many events at which inappropriate behavior and criminal behavior of domestic troops ensued. See any of those going on in the PA or Syria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia? Let me know when you find courts in these countries order the governments to stop pursuing policies which are antithetical to the founding principles of the countries.

I can't wait to see the perfect world created when the Israelis are 'vanquished' and the truly deserving inhabitants are able to retake their homes and businesses. :sarcasm:

[wellst0nev0ter]

75. I Remember The PA Detaining A Terrorist

then the IDF bombing the prison and allowing him to escape. So that leaves me skeptical about the Israelis actually being serious about establishing a justice system in the occupied territories.

I am always puzzled about why the Israelis deserve some kind of trophy for avoiding genocide. Such low standards. And I am also sure that if some Arab country kept Jews in occupied territories int his day in age, the entire world will give them the benefit of the doubt :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[EFerrari]

125. You must be joking.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[PCIntern]

52. Patent nonsense...

America has exactly two allies who have a military and an intelligence unit which are allied with us fairly congruently. Britain and Israel. Feingold knows exactly how important Israel is to the US as a military partner, intellectual and industrial partner, and a trading partner, among many others. To accuse a Jew of being allied with Israel more than America is heinous and I for one take it quite personally and resent it bitterly. Pat Buchanan once spoke of the Amen Corner in the US of Jews/Israel. Terrific. Give him a call, I'm sure he'd like to hear from you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Wow

.

[saigon68]

67. Au Revoir voyez-vous

[JackNewtown]

51. Criticism of Feingold

I read this thread and several posters have been critical of Feingold. I think he is unfairly being singled out. Has any Senator taken a position that differs from the official Bush administration position?

[Pastiche423]

60. How can he be unfairly singled out

when it was he that opened his mouth in front of a mic?

[PaDem]

78. Nothing comes to mind, but.............

Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) will when elected.

[Marie26]

90. Sure doesn't seem like it.

Pretty rare show of unity.

[leesa]

62. Israel has been acting constructively?? How so??

20:1 kill rate Palestinians to Israelis? Is this down from before?? Israel has been doing everything they can to provoke this mess.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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[oasis]

85. Feingold sounds like the voice of reason. I give him credit for having

the courage to take a clear stand on the issue.

[rodeodance]

183. as Hil. Clinton did today.

[nolabels]

89. The escalation in this whole episode so far has been orcastrated..........

by Isreal (guess I am just trying to state the obvious).

For all the hoopla one can guess there is a distaction that is trying to be played here somehow.

The other actors should bring in the stringed players and try to put on something less obvious


http://www.hodges.org.uk/128-2832_IMG.html

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

101. You're fucking nuts

but you knew that already.

[Lurking Dem]

110. Since no one commented

when I posted this before, I'll post it again. The Democratic Party is standing with Israel. Feingold is not alone. If you (royal) don't like that the party is standing with Israel, maybe you should take some time to read the actual platform of the party and then decide where your political affiliations are.

From the Democratic Party and the NJDC.



At a time when Israel again finds itself under attack from forces outside of its borders, Democrats and the National Jewish Democratic Council are standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel in support of its right to defend its borders and people from terrorist and militant attacks.

The following are excerpts from some of the many statements of support for Israel issued this week by Democratic leaders in the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives:

House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (CA) and House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer (MD)(7/12/06):

"The House Democratic leadership strongly condemns the seizure of Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah terrorists operating from Lebanon... Countries with influence over Hezbollah, particularly Syria and Iran, must move quickly to bring about the return of the soldiers and the end of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians from Hezbollah positions in Lebanon. The Palestinian Authority, and countries with influence over Hamas, must take similar action in Gaza.

"Those who finance, direct, or otherwise support acts like these need to understand that they have produced an extremely dangerous situation and that they are responsible for the consequences. Israel has an inherent right to defend itself, and the United States supports our ally."

Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid (NV) (7/12/06):

"Today's attacks by Hezbollah in Israeli territory were disgraceful and unwarranted acts of violence by a terrorist organization. Hezbollah must release the captured Israeli soldiers immediately. Hezbollah must be dismantled, and all nations have an obligation to cease any and all assistance to this terrorist organization. Israel has a right to live in peace and security, and the United States will stand by our ally in this difficult time."

U.S. Representative Gary Ackerman (NY), Ranking Democrat of the House of Representatives International Relations Subcommittee on the Middle East and Central Asia (7/12/06):

"If the world is serious about peace in the Middle East, then Tehran and Damascus need to be held accountable for feeding, fostering, and occasionally unleashing, these rabid, blood-spattered killers. The money, weapons and political support Hezbollah and Hamas receive from Iran and Syria are not uncontrollable or natural phenomena and the international community must demand that they stop. Cross-border attacks on Israel should result in tough international sanctions on Syria and Iran, and the UN Security Council should immediately pursue this option...

"Israel has an absolute right to defend itself from this aggression and the Israeli Defense Forces has shown it knows how to do this."

U.S. Representative Alcee Hastings (FL), Co-Chair, House of Representatives Democratic Working Group on Israel (7/12/06):

"Hezbollah's actions against Israel are unconsciousable. Instead of working towards peace, Hezbollah has chosen to perpetuate the violence. Terrorist attacks such as these are cowardly and resolve nothing... Let us not be misled into believing these attacks arise from a single source. The terrorist organizations, Hezbollah and Hamas, are unquestionably sponsored and guided by the Iranian and Syrian governments... The Syrian and Iranian governments should be condemned along with the terrorist groups they harbor.

"Israel must have the right to defend herself. Like the United States and other sovereign nations, Israel is justified in reestablishing its deterrent posture."

U.S. Representative Gene Green (TX), Co-Chair, House of Representatives Democratic Working Group on Israel (7/13/06):

"Attempts by Hezbollah to open a second front after the kidnapping from Gaza are an attack on Israel's sovereignty. Hezbollah's actions require Israel to defend itself, and Israel's actions to take out terrorist camps along its borders to prevent this from happening again are warranted and justified.

"Israel has had to defend itself from terrorist organizations that have felt it shouldn't exist throughout its history, and must continue to do so following these killings and kidnappings to protect its people and free the soldiers taken by the terrorist group Hezbollah."

U.S. Representative Robert Wexler (FL), Ranking Democrat of the House of Representatives International Relations Subcommittee on Europe and Emerging Threats (7/12/06):

"I strongly condemn the horrific attack on Israel's northern border carried-out by Hezbollah terrorists based in Southern Lebanon. The murder and abduction of Israeli soldiers - in conjunction with the infiltration of Israeli military bases and rocket attacks on Northern Israel - are inexcusable acts of aggression that further destabilize the Middle East.

"These provocations stand in stark violation of international law, and I strongly support Israel's unequivocal right to self-defense."

http://njdc.typepad.com/njdcs_blog/2006/07/entire_party_ra.html

[Roland99]

111. Get them in the right mindset to open to the door to US hitting Iran/Syria

Rubber Stamp Congress fits BOTH parties at the moment.


:(

[confludemocrat]

112. Agree. Plus, none of those statements decry Lebanon civilian deaths

and the criminal collective punishment that goes on and ignores the further harm being done to the credibility of the US as a supposed honest broker (already trashed to oblivion) in the middle east

The Israel lobby OWNS these people

[PCIntern]

116. Ok, let's say they decry the deaths...

do statements in and of themselves mean anything in this world?

This is a War, and in war, people die - horribly, painfully, and inappropriately. This is why we don't like war, right?

So that being the case, where was all this outrage when the rockets were being fired at Israeli towns? This is a provocative action which is dangerous for civilians. You may say that this is an answer to oppression...OK, we'll grant that for the sake of argument only...then this is still not war. There is obviously a difference. When you start hostile action which physically threatens unarmed civilians it is a provocative act. You take a seing at a guy 4 times your size, you're asking to be walloped. Yes, he's not supposed to do that, but guess what - you are gonna get hit and they'll pick up the pieces later. That's the way it works in thsi world - the ideology of the Society of Friends has not managed to permeate itself into the Middle East or almost anywhere else.

[Roland99]

117. Those rockets' red glare came AFTER Israel launched attacks.

Why didn't Israel seek to have the two soldiers released instead of escalating the violence to such a horrible level?

Why doesn't Israel just pull out of the OCCUPIED territories?

One could say Israel isn't much different from Iraq under Saddam. All kinds of UN resolutions condemning its actions and invading its neighbors.

Hmmmmm

[PCIntern]

124. No, I'm tlaking about before this particular

incursion, as it's called.

This has been going on since 1948, so I can assume that by 'occupied' you mean those territories which were part of the partition into Israel and Trans-Jordan, WHICH WAS THE PALESTINIAN STATE until the Hussein family said it wasn't. Go talk to them about this for a while. See how far you get.

[Roland99]

129. I was referring to areas currently occupied by Israel

And which they were starting to withdraw from.

[IndianaGreen]

114. Defending borders does not include bombing Beirut

and does not involve killing of innocent civilians. Israel is engaging in the same collective punishment tactics that the US does in Iraq. We can't condemn Bush for what he does in Iraq while giving Israel a pass for doing the same thing in Lebanon.

Did you notice that Israel's disproportionate response in Lebanon has swept from the news the initial provocations and attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah?

[rodeodance]

115. I have to admit, I was a bit surprized by his response.

[Freddie Stubbs]

177. He is simply upholding the Democratic platform

[hollowdweller]

130. Isreal pulled out of Lebanon and pulled out of Gaza & WB

What happened? Hamas got elected, and they are getting people kidnapped and shelled. The wall slowed down the suicide bombers though so that's cool.

While I think that they are overreacting in Lebanon, and I think they are actually hurting themselves and possibly playing INTO Iran's game of unifying the Shiites, I can totally understand their anger.

I mean does anybody really believe that if Israel was not suffering from shelling, suicice bombings, and kidnappings they would be attacking these countries?

Israel embarked on trying to make up with these people, Clinton got them to promise to go farther than they had ever gone before on giving back land and giving to the Palestinians and they turn around and start the uprising again instead. While I think that in part political opposition (Sharon deliberately trying to provoke) played a part in this really HE played the Palestinians own stupidity to keep Barak from sealing a peace deal, much as Iran is playing Israel now.

They pull out of Lebanon and pull out of the occupied territories and they get kidnapping and shelling?

So I can totally understand their frustration because it seems like neither agression or negotiation seems to work on these people.

[displacedtexan]

185. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

This thread is fascinating, but it was making me sick
until I got to your reply.

"Neither aggression or negotiation seems to work."

IMHO, this current ME conflict is the mother of all
wedge issues for Democrats, and I have to wonder if Bush's snickering
and pig comments aren't a result of the Republicans' giddiness.

[JackNewtown]

198. Israel pulled out the West Bank?

Did it remove the numerous checkpoints and end its control of the Palestinians' borders?

I don't follow Israeli-Palestinian affairs that closely so I am asking a real question in good faith, not a rhetorical question to make a point.

[martymar64]

234. Pulled out of West Bank? Please.

The settlements are going up every day, subsidized by US tax dollars. These are the people that assault Palestinians daily and destroy Palestinian crops. One group was caught attempting to blow up a school for Arab girls.
If the Palestinians were to stop fighting and engage in passive resistance, the killing by Israelis would not stop. They know from their own experience that passive victims are just easier to kill.
I now feel that they have no interest in peace, just their own form of "Manifest Destiny" and guess who the Indians are.

[Southsideirish]

133. Narrow views like this show why he could never, ever be considered

for the national ticket.

[Freddie Stubbs]

181. How does this view differ from the Democatic party Platform?

[Imajika]

134. Good for Feingold..

I totally support his position.

[drduffy]

135. Feingold has no vote from me

for anything. Israel has been waiting for, and probably ochestrating many circumstances, to allow it to attack and commit the war crimes it is clearly commiting. The whole thing appears connived to enable the PNAC bastards (in Israel and the U.S.) to attempt to control all of the middle east ..... which they have to do to achieve global hegemony. I would never allow my son to die defending Israel or to support the American Empire.

[goforit]

140. There are no more peacemakers on this planet. Yikes!

[DuaneBidoux]

142. Yeah, two kidnapped soldiers for 200 dead civilians. Seems balanced.

[LeftistGorilla]

143. If we're lucky...

only 200....:cry:

[jsamuel]

144. Well, I disagree, but this is just Afghanistan all over again

we differ there as well. Other than that, we are on the same page.

[dysfunctional press]

155. and to think that i was considering supporting him in 2008...

my list of prospects keeps getting thinner.

[Freddie Stubbs]

178. He is simply supporting the Democratic party's platform

[johnnyrocket]

156. So if Hezbolla 'did it first' is BS, then what should Israel do...

about a border militia bombing their towns?

Just sit and take it?

Of course EVERYONE wants peace, that's not the question, the question is how do you attain peace?

[Sam Odom]

168. To y'all anti-Semites

Russ wouldn't want your vote

[jonnyblitz]

171. you know, calling people anti-semitic that don't agree

is really fucking pathetic.

[Radioactive]

175. Completely agreed

It really ticks me off when people come out with this every time someone critisises Israel. Israel have majorly overreacted to a situation and have murdered more than 100 civilians since.

[Sam Odom]

182. I stand by what I posted.

If you're anti-semitic then Russ wouldn't want your vote. Strange YOU took exception to that? hummmm

[lumpy]

186. The term anti-semitic implies

a racial bias as it is used by some in response to political views. It would be more appropriate, if you'er are implying as a racial bias, to use the term anti-Jew. The root meaning of Semite refers to Shem, son of Noah(as in the Bible)who is recognized by Christians, Jews and Muslims.

[Baclava]

211. It's called stirring the pot

Jew-hating Nazi's comes in a close second.

[stepnw1f]

202. That Oughta Stop People from Criticizing Israel

:eyes:

[gasperc]

176. hmm, Iran and Syria using Hezbollah

to get the ball rolling and then jump in later as they is a greater chance to bring in Jordan and Egypt and maybe even Turkey.

[RCinBrooklyn]

187. Russ is wrong. Israel has be ratcheting up the heat and this is the result

[terry4kerry]

189. I really think

The issue is not baby-killing, it is about how irrationality of terrorist organization. Give them an inch they take a mile. Whether it is Hamas, or Bin-Laden, I really think that negotiating with terrorists justifies their extreme actions. Israel is right on this one, I agree 100 % with Feingold.

[ShortnFiery]

190. "Give them an inch they take a mile."

A.K.A. they're insane, less than human, should be bombed into The Stone Age?

Yeah, let's kill all those Commies (Arabs/Persians). The only good Commie (Arab/Persian) is a Dead One! :sarcasm:

Welcome to the second verse, same as the first! :grr:

[JackNewtown]

199. t4kerry was talking about terrorist groups

Do you believe terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas are sane?

[ShortnFiery]

200. They are human beings, just like The Gooks (North Vietnamese)

The same rhetoric was used to NOT negotiate with them ... just burn villages and condone free fire zones.

Can't you see when you're being played? Hezbollah and Hamas have been elected DEMOCRATICALLY to represent part of the governments of Palestine and Lebanon. We can't label them Terrorists just because we do NOT like part of their government.

We are using very very loose language here. And since they BOTH have Representatives in their respective governments. Hell yes! We must negotiate with them to achieve a peaceful settlement.

[JackNewtown]

201. Hezbollah and Hamas don't want peace

How can we enter into peace negotiations with Hamas when Hamas refuses to recoginize Israel's right to exist?

Sure, members of Hamas and Hezbollah are humans but they are also part of criminal, murderous organizations.

[ShortnFiery]

203. "criminal, murderous organizations"

And many of their people live in abject poverty. More than anything, lack of hope for the future BREEDS TERRORISTS. Beware of those who have nothing to lose. Every time you kill and innocent child, you recruit her brothers and father to join Hamas or Hezbollah.

IF the few violent leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah could not recruit the destitute citizens of Palestine and Lebanon, we would NOT have Terrorism.

Look to the roots of terrorism? Blowing up more infrastructure and thereby making the citizens even more poverty stricken will only make the violence escalate. You should know that! We, Americans who lived through the Vietnam War, should have learned that lesson WELL!

You must negotiate to help raise up the populace. Then these evil factions will not be able to flourish. HOWEVER, you give them more power by NOT negotiating with the "civilian" representatives of Hamas and Hezbollah. Why? Because like the Brits WORKED WITH those evil IRA to promote them integrating into the peaceful government entities, Israel MUST do the same IF they wish for a true and lasting peace.

Yes, there are public works aspects of Hamas and Hezbollah that support the people. Let's help them choose NON-Violence and Political Representative solutions?

Again, if they don't have multitudes of young men without hope to fill their ranks, the violent aspects of these organizations will cease to exist.

[wordpix2]

224. I agree with you and think the US should open dialog, even with criminals

Poverty and overpopulation is the root cause of the problem. Add to this "leaders" who blame the US and Israel for everything wrong in their societies, and you get poverty + hate = terrorism.

[ShortnFiery]

225. Yes, and the BASIC organization can become less-criminal when

they see their Representatives in their government do POSITIVE changes toward increased employment opportunities and public works. If you lift up the general population's quality of life, they will NOT attract young men toward terrorism, i.e., they'll be busy working a legitimate job.

It seems to be working for the IRA ... so far so good. There's been a few flare ups but they have, in essence, disarmed.

Now don't tell me that their (IRA's) terrorism was any less deadly to civilians. This can work. That's what diplomacy is all about - bringing people together to work toward a COMPROMISE. Peace can be achieved with the presence of skilled, and "genuine" moderation. Steps must be verified and monitoring must apply 24/7.

[Dark]

226. Kinda hard to negotiate with someone who doesn't believe you exist. n/t

[wiley]

213. Russ Feingold is right, Hillary Clinton is right, and Israel is right.

I feel the same about Hamas and Hezbollah as I do about the Klan. Given the opportunity, they kill. Usually that means maximizing the number of deaths of "innocent civilians". When societies honor murderers as martyrs, you can no longer call the complicit or complacent innocent civilians. Innocent victims of ruthless Syrian and Iranian terrorism, maybe. Sorry if that would appear to some perceived or real cog of the neo-con strategy, but Israel is in the right here.

[martymar64]

235. So your answer is to kill all Arabs

Or at least make them lay down for any humiliation or degradation that Israel forces on them?
Arabs also have a right to exist and defend themselves.

[wiley]

237. (Warning: Long RANT

:rant:



No. But a root of the problem is
"the humiliation and degradation" part. I'm surprised you didn't say bend over instead of lay down. It's beyond even believable at this point that all humiliation and degradation that Arabs "suffer" is "caused" by Israel. The every thing that does not glorify the Arab male or his culture is a degradation or humiliation psychosis is as much part of the problem as the humiliating and degrading way that many Arabs treat each other.

It's not unlike every other psychotic society or culture that establishes a "value" system whereby the poor, or less well connected, or those considered the other or without power are treated as inferior. Some Arabs keep whining about it and blaming Israel because they can't really say or do anything about their own oppressive governments and religious institutions without fear of being persecuted or executed. They also just want to rout for their own like so many other peoples, and there is always some "demon" or oppressor other than the real oppressor who is blamed. It's about power and (especially) men's inability to wield it over others without becoming accountable to anyone but their similarly empowered sub-tribe members, or a competing tribes quest for power.

The only thing that has really changed in the last years is that now corporations have firmly established their own "tribes" that humiliate or degrade or eliminate those who disagree with or don't become a part of their financial agenda. So, if Israel were eliminated (and presumably all Israelis and/or Jews) would every Arab live a life without humiliation or degradation? No. The abuse, humiliation, degradation and murder (even forced rapes) based on some man's or his fanily's "honor" would just wildly escalate. Get over the Israel as Satan crap and maybe the world can start looking at the real causes of humiliation and degradation that have nothing to do with racial or regional or religious "insults". Considering the history of the world and the human race, I'm not really optimistic that anything will ever really change.

But that's just my opinion, and it has no power in any country at this point because I don't have any money or belong to any religion that has "a book" that says it's okay to kill people because that's the way "we" roll. :rant:

[IndianaGreen]

242. I am so happy to see so many Democrats agree with John Bolton

Gee, they have adopted the same Orwellian language of the rightwing: war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength!

Oceania is at war with (fill-in the blank). Oceania has always been at war with (fill-in the blank).

Have you seen:

Question asking?

Lack of support for the US military?

Concern for Iraqi civilians?

Outright dissent?

Report thoughtcrime!

It's your patriotic duty!

Students for an Orwellian Society
http://www.studentsfororwell.org/
Because 2006 is 22 years too late.

http://www.studentsfororwell.org/sos1.pdf

Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as terror victims -- Bolton

UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts".

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".

The eight dead Canadians were a Lebanese-Canadian couple, their four children, his mother and an uncle, said relatives in Montreal.

The Montreal pharmacist and his family had arrived in Lebanon 10 days earlier for a vacation in his parents' home village and to introduce his children to relatives, they said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728

[rollin74]

214. Feingold is correct

Israel is doing what it needs to do in order to survive. Hezbollah and Hamas aren't interested in peace nor do they want compromise. They want Israel gone. Plain and simple.

[Radioactive]

216. Over 200 murdered in Lebenon

You do realise that over 200 civilians have been murdered in Lebenon because of this major overreaction from Israel dont you? The only possible explanation for your bias is that you are Jewish and stick by Israel whatever they do.

[bdamomma]

217. do not classify my opinion

as anti-semitic, but I think Israel would be very happy to exterminate/eliminate Lebanon, Syria,Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah.

[RCinBrooklyn]

227. Russ is wrong. Israel needs to GET OUT of Gaza & the West Bank - period.

[LaCrosseDem]

231. I guess he has failed the DU "purity test" then...who's left?

C'mon we need a perfect Dem. Who is it? Hurry up, 2008 is tight around the corner.

[ShortnFiery]

232. We don't need warmongers ... no, we don't need him and Hil eom

[Biernuts]

248. Trafficant, if he's out of jail.... n/t

[DoveTurnedHawk]

233. And Scales Fall From the Eyes of Purity Policepeople Everywhere (eom)

DTH

[IndianaGreen]

243. I believe it is the Sixth Commandment: "You shall not murder!"

Given to Moses by the Head Honcho of the "Purity Policepeople Everywhere" that motives many people to reject rationalizations for the killing of civilians in war.

This is one of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, for which an individual is obligated to give up his life. This means that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not kill person C," Person B should allow himself to be killed, rather than murder Person C.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/aseret.htm

[ShortnFiery]

250. "rationalizations for the killing of civilians in war"

Agreed! Further, the word "rationalizations" promptly negates ANY validity of the argument. Like the USA Catholic Bishops *rationalize* that the Holy Father really does not condemn Executions albeit he states this clearly. <wink wink> Religions differ in interpretation, however, in my Bible it's "Thou shall not KILL." :hi:

[grahamhgreen]

236. We need a religion based on peace.

[omenapoint]

239. Peace through strength.

You can't have peace unilaterally.

[omenapoint]

238. Thank God!

Good job. Especially when so many "freedom loving" liberals would rather Israel did nothing. God Bless Russ Feingold and every other courageous Senator who supports Israel.

[ShortnFiery]

240. May God Bless the Peacemakers ... and those who compromise ...

on BOTH sides of these waring parties. I'm a democrat but I support PEACE, not continued aggressive warfare and killing of innocents.

[omenapoint]

245. You can't have unilateral peace.

Hezbollah shows no inclination towards peace. You can't support peace unless both sides support it. Otherwise, one would be set up for destruction.

[ShortnFiery]

249. You're painting with a broad brush and an often used "talking point"

Of course there are people within Hezbollah who wish for peace. There are admittedly many evil people on both sides of this war, but that does not mean that MEDIATION can NOT be successful.

We have to try and keep trying for PEACE not continued aggressive warfare.

[omenapoint]

251. How do you suggest that we find the five who want peace?

And then, what should Israel be prepared to give up? Mediation will happen, after Hezbollah loses enough of its terrorists, they will come to the table.

[ShortnFiery]

252. WAR solves nothing ... WAR is TERRORISM ...

Israel beating up on an ENTIRE COUNTRY and in the process killing hundreds of innocents ... just to get a few militants. I believe that the EVIL ones in Hezbollah would be the minority if you would cease to use collective punishment. Every child Israel KILL in Lebanon will recruit more of her male family members to JOIN the Militant branch of hezbollah.

You are breeding more terrorists with continuation aggressive WARFARE. The rest of the world watches in HORROR at Israel's belief that three soldiers are more important than the lives of hundreds of innocents in Lebanon.

It won't work. If nothing else will convince Israel, The World Community will not even "begin to understand a rationale" of such indiscriminate MASS killings if Israel's Aggression continues. :( :thumbsdown:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

255. after Hezbollah loses enough of its terrorists, they will come to the tabl

oh yeah, the whole Middle East is wrought with examples of war settling strife. Why didn't we think of war as the solution earlier, we could have really solved some problems!

[JackNewtown]

244. Feingold received $113,000 from AIPAC and co. in 2004

I agree with him on this but the large amount of money he got from AIPAC and friends may have some influence on his position.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.asp?Ind=Q05&recipdetail=M&sortorder=U&Cycle=2004

Pro-Israel:
Money to Congress

Election cycle: 2004

List: Summary Top 20 Members All Senators All Members of the House All Senate Candidates All House Candidates Sort by Amount Sort by Name Sort by State

Candidate
Amount

Bush, George W (R)
$262,766

Daschle, Tom (D-SD)
$245,075

Specter, Arlen (R-PA)
$235,200

Lieberman, Joe (D-CT)
$231,050

Wyden, Ron (D-OR)
$162,950

Boxer, Barbara (D-CA)
$142,110

Murray, Patty (D-WA)
$130,745

Mikulski, Barbara A (D-MD)
$127,125

Lantos, Tom (D-CA)
$124,600

Deutsch, Peter (D-FL)
$119,400

Feingold, Russell D (D-WI)
$113,703

Brownback, Sam (R-KS)
$98,600

[NotGivingUp]

253. Feingold can take a hike along with Hillary.

[funnymanpants]

254. Israeli action full of hypocrisy

Bombing bridges and the air port, along with other targets, hardly constitutes defense. And lost in this thread is that the provocation by Hizbollah (and it was a provocation) was the *kidnapping* of two Israeli soldiers. Hizbolah did not start firing rockets into Irael until Israel started bombing Lebanon.

If Israeli feels it is justified to bomb civilian targets (condemned by Human Rights Watch), then should not Palestinians have the same right to bomb Israel? Because Israel regularly kidnaps Palestinians. There are about 10,000 Palestinian prisoners held by the Israelis. Most have not been charged with a crime. The imprisonment is condemned by human rights groups.

(The source for this info comes from a CNN interview done by an Australian, who interviewed an Isaeli spokesperson, also coincidently Australian.)

So while I condemn Hizbollah's actions as cold and cynical, I am astonished that anyone can say with a straight face that Israel has a right to bomb Lebanon. Israel should be held to the same standard as any other country. It kidnaps Palestinians with impunity, largely because it has a superior military. It cannot then claim a moral high ground and create an all-out war over an action which it regularly practices.

And don't even get me started on the other provocative actions by Israel, including their continual land theft. Olmert has announced that he is going to establish more settlements in the West Bank in the Jordan Valley because he wants to keep this for Israel. (It is for "security" purposes, he said.)

By the way, does anyone else see some of the other ridiculous aspects of Israel's position? It wants the army to clamp down on Hizbollah (which, to their credit, almost every newscaster on TV has stated will result in a civil war) and then *bombs* the army bases! It says it wants the return of the soldiers, and then takes the one action which will assure that they won't be retuend, namely bombing Lebanon. (Hizbollah does not respond well to threats--in fact, it thrives off them.) Israel states that it wants to destroy Hizbollah, but then attacks Lebanon, which will surely result in Hizbollah becomeing stronger. (It has tried to destroy Palestinian terrorists for decades, and Hamas just won the election. If it can't destroy terrorists in the territories it occupies, how can it possibly hope that a bombing campaign will do the same. Or does it hope to re-occupy Lebanon, which resulted in the creation of Hizbollah to begin with?)

One more thing, in case I am misunderstod. Hizbollah's firing rockets contitutes a war crime, since they are inaccurate and will most likely hit civillians. Likewise, Israel's bobming of largely civilian targets is a war crime.