8 people killed as Katyusha rockets slam into Haifa

[jseankil]

At least eight people were killed as Katyusha rockets hit three cities along Israel's northern coast, including Haifa, on Sunday morning.

Most of the fatalities were in an Israel Railways garage located near an Israel Electric Corporation installation on Haifa Bay, according to the Magen David Adom director general.

Following the strike, Israel Railways announced it was halting train traffic north of Binyamina.

Two salvos of several rockets hit Ahuza, a central residential and business district of Haifa. Rockets also landed in the city of Acre and in Nahariya. A rocket also landed in the town of Kiryat Haim located north of Haifa, Channel 2 TV reported.

Channel 10 TV reported of rockets hitting also the Checkpost business district on the Haifa-Nahyaria highway.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738747.html

[jseankil]

1. Hit Hezbollah Not Innocents! /nm

nm

[Scurrilous]

2. 8 killed in rocket attack on Haifa

Attack on north resumes: Rockets fired by Hizbullah terrorists from Lebanon land in Haifa; police say eight killed, five others seriously wounded in strike. Nahariya, Kiryat Bialik also targeted; additional Katyushas apparently strike Akko area

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276392,00.html

<snip>

"A siren was heard across Haifa Sunday after a Katyusha rocket fell in the area. Security forces said at least 10 Katyusha rockets fell on the Haifa area.

Police said eight people were killed and five others were seriously wounded at the train depot. The rescue of the injured is being delayed after many people abandoned their vehicles due to rockets, leaving them on the road to the Rambam hospital.

Elad Savavo of Haifa told Ynet: "The train depot on Hof Shemen was hit. The second strike was in the bay, opposite the oil refineries. There were no sirens before the first barrage. There was a barrage of five rockets and then there were sirens. Immediately afterwards more rockets fell. Large amounts of rescue forces are in the area.

The Katyusha barrage also struck Naharia, Kiryat Bialik (check post), Akko, and Rosh Hanikra."



Hizbullah: We attacked Haifa

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276440,00.html

Hizbullah TV station says: 'After killing and destruction left by enemy, the Islamic resistance announces that it attacked Haifa with dozens of rockets'

<snip>

"Hizbullah announced Sunday morning on its al-Manar television station that it fired Raad-type rockets at Haifa. Eight people were killed and dozens injured in Haifa following the rocket attacks.

Hizbullah said that it fired dozens of Raad 2 and Raad 3 rockets at Haifa. "After the killing and destruction left by the enemy and after
a long night of bombing in the southern quarter of Beirut and other areas in Lebanon and after ports and other infrastructures were attacked including a power station, the Islamic resistance (Hizbullah) has announced that it attacked with dozens of rockets, at exactly 9:00 in the morning."

The al-Manar network has been broadcasting live pictures from Israeli television showing the extent of the attack on Haifa.

At the start of the campaign in Lebanon Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah said he would not hesitate to fire long-range rockets at Haifa."

[Erika]

3. Why did W and Israel turn down the cease fire offered by Lebanon?

The blood is on their hands.

[The Magistrate]

4. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Ma'am

Do you think Hezbollah would accept the direction of the Lebanese government to cease fire? If you do, why?

[Erika]

9. I think we should find out, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

32. We Know The Answer Already, Ma'am

[ButterflyBlood]

5. Hezbollah is firing these rockets, not the Lebanese Army

and Hezbollah doesn't give a crap what the Lebanese government's position is. If they did, they would've disarmed per the peace agreement.

[jseankil]

6. Yet over 100 innocent Lebanese have been killed by Israel.

Fight terror with terror?

[ButterflyBlood]

7. I'm not defending Israel's actions

I'm just pointing out the government's cease fire has no bearing on this.

This does show though, that Israel should actually target the Hezbollah camps in the south which are being ignored, rather than the Beirut airport.

[Erika]

10. How do you justify your blame on the Lebanese n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Where the Hell did he blame the Lebanese?!

[ButterflyBlood]

18. Where did I say it was the Lebanese as a whole's fault?

I think I've made it pretty clear that I hold Hezbollah alone at fault for this.

[Englander]

19. The context was clear.

Post#3;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2392797#2392810

I've read the sub-thread, & post #5 clearly reads as an attempt to justify the attacks on Lebanese
infrastructure, & the attacks on *Lebanon*, it's arguing against the view that 'W & Israel' are to
blame for the situation, by ignoring the call for ceasefire.

[ButterflyBlood]

20. Does this sound like I support targeting Lebanese infrastructure?

"This does show though, that Israel should actually target the Hezbollah camps in the south which are being ignored, rather than the Beirut airport."

My point is simply this, the cease-fire offered by the Lebanese government has no bearing on what Hezbollah does. Note that I was replying to the post: "Why did W and Israel turn down the cease fire offered by Lebanon?", which implied that if they did not, this strike would've never occured. I personally believe Israel should've accepted the cease-fire, but this rocket attack would've happened regardless. While Israel deserves condemnation for their actions, in this case, Hezbollah is the only solely to blame.

Also let me say that I'm referring only to Israel here, as far as I'm concerned Dumbass should simply stay out of this altogether because it's not his country and he's a complete fuck up who has yet to accomplish anything positive. He's the last person on earth we need getting involved in this mess.

[GuillermoX71]

23. I believe Israel's

attacking targets (presumably Hezbollah) in Southern Lebanon.

I have read this in a few news articles about the war.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. NO!

The blood is on the hands of Hizb'allah!

[jseankil]

13. Israeli bombs have killed over 100 innocents sir. This is a 2 way street

You DO NOT get a pass to kill innocents under the guise of fighting terror, it does not work that way!

[Behind the Aegis]

14. And where did I issue a pass to Israel?

8 Israelis were murdered today by Hizb'allah! You don't get it both ways! You can't lay the deaths of all people on Israel!

[jseankil]

15. No, they share this mess, you're absolutely right.

Hezbollah must be removed but "burning Beirut" is not the correct way to do it.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. OK...we agree!

The past few days, I have encountered a number of people who only blame Israel and it has really pissed me off. I agree that destroying Beirut was not the wisest of choices. However, giving that the cowards actually hole themselves up in civilian areas, fighting them becomes a herculean task.

[IntiRaymi]

41. No it isn't

132 civilians. Not Hizbollah soldiers, but civilians.
The responsibility for that is Israel's, unless Israel is amoral, and incapable of gauging the effect of its actions.

[greccogirl]

31. Do you really think

that Lebanon has that much control over Hezbulloh? That is a fairy tale.

[recidivist]

37. You are getting close to the point here.

A foundational rule of the state system -- running back to the Treaty of Westphalia and all that -- is that governments are responsible for what happens on their territory. That doesn't mean governments have to be perfect -- outlaws happen. But governments are responsible for policing them. This includes working with neighboring countries when outlawry spills across borders, as with Hezbollah.

Now it gets interesting. Nations also have a right to self protection. This means that when a government fails to police its territory, an affected neighbor is entitled to intervene. Whether or not to do so is a matter of prudence. Just because Pancho Villa was rampaging on both sides of the Rio Grande doesn't mean Woodrow Wilson made the best choice in sending the U.S. Army into Mexico -- but it was clearly within the rights of the U.S. to do so, since Mexico clearly could not maintain order on the border.

Similarly, if Lebanon is unwilling or unable to suppress Hezbollah, Israel is perfectly justified in doing so. It is sad that innocent Lebanese will get caught in the crossfire. This is what happens when governments fail to perform the police function on their own territory. Lebanon is responsible for this.

The final extension of the principle occurs when governments -- think Syria or Iran at the moment -- enter into a league with criminal organizations to wage clandestine war on a neighbor. They should be held responsible. It is entirely a matter of prudence -- not a question of international law -- when and how to bring them to account.

[Selatius]

8. The lives of innocent people mean nothing to the war bringers

The blood belongs on the hands of those in the Israeli government who push for maximum force and those in Hezbollah who did this.

[liberalpragmatist]

17. Shit. I'm sure the response will be furious

I'm not blaming Israel for starting the conflict with Lebanon - Hezbollah made a blatant attack; but the Israeli response has been utterly self-defeating, immoral, and willfully disproportionate.

This latest attack is just going to invite an even more furious response.

Say a prayer for all those innocent lives, Lebanese, Palestinian, and Israeli being lost in the madness

[Laotra]

21. I blame Olmert

Hezbollah attack against Israel tank was "things as usual" in the long time low scale conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, and Olmert decided to escalate the conflict way beyond "things as usual", with absolute certainty that Hezbollah would respond in kind, now attacking the among others railstation and harbour of Haifa. Clearly Olmert has no regard for the safety and lost lives of his countrymen he should be protecting.

How many more dead Israeli civilians and soldiers Olmert's egotistic grandstanding with the pretext of freeing the POW's (clearly not working) is worth?

Naturally, I'm not freeing Hezbollah from any of the responsibility, but with greater power comes greater responsibility.

[PCIntern]

22. Yes, you are freeing Hezbollah

by saying you blame Olmert.

What I find really fascinating about the discussions of this terirble situation is how so many here lapse into Republican-like rhetoric.

How would you like to read this:

I blame Democrats for everything bad which has occurred in America.
That, of course, is not to free the Bush Administration of responsibility but...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Freeing the POWs is just a pretext like WMD in Iraq

But let's not minimize the clear provocations by Hamas and Hezbollah that triggered this conflict. They knew that Israel would retaliate in this fashion. It is the Lebanese and the Israeli people that are paying with their lives for a war not of their making.

[Laotra]

29. Let's not

But I must say I'm not sure they knew Israel would retaliate in this fashion, I'm not privy to their inner thoughts. Could be this is what they were fishing for, could be not.

Motives of the players seem complicated, there is also infighting going on in Hamas between the hawks and the moderates and power struggle inside Lebanon, according to this excellent analysis:
http://www.mideastviews.com/articleview.php?art=146

"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described what is happening in Lebanon as saying. "This is an act of war." Olmert is correct. This is war. It has been war, non-stop, since 1948. What is happening in Lebanon today is yet another chapter of bloody Middle East events that will last for generations to come, because it is impossible, after so many years of conflict, for the Israelis and Arabs to forgive and forget."

[AnOhioan]

35. Thank you for your post

Alot of posters forget that innocent civilians are dying in this madness. Hezbollah is wrong, the Israeli gov't is wrong.

I don't care who started what, that is completely irrelevant.

The more civilians who get killed the more the hatred is strengthened. The mideast is in a death spiral that no-one seems to be able to arrest.

If it were only Israeli soldiers or Hezbollah fighters that were dying that would be in and of itself be tragic, but the civilian deaths, of which BOTH sides are culpable, make this an atrocity beyond measure.

The wanton destruction of homes, farms, and other civilian infrastructure is nothing less than a crime against every compassionate human being.

Will it stop?

Unfortunately I do not see that possibility as long as the people with the power continue to act like barbarians.

My heart goes out to the innocent Israeli, Lebanese, and Palestinian civilians who want nothing more than to live their lives out in peace.

A peace which they have been denied through no fault of their own.

One final thought. On the responsibility that the United States has in all this.

My tax dollars support ideals which I do not. The selling of armaments to Pakistan, to Israel, to untold other countries. I sincerely wish the UN were a strong enough organization to ban ALL arms transfers between countries. Dealing in death is not my idea of how the US should be.


Monies spent on medical assistance, infrastructure repair, food, etc are great and noble causes but the selling of one bullet is one bullet too many.

[adriennui]

40. who elected hezbollah

to be their representatives?

[AnOhioan]

46. And who elected Olmert?

My point is that both Hezbollah and the Israeli gov't are guilty of killing innocents.

If you cannot admit that then we have nothing to discuss.

[adriennui]

47. hezbollah is nothing but

it's a bunch of gangsters who have taken up residence in lebanon in order to attack israel.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

24. The Patriot battery Israel moved to Haifa is not effective w/Katytusha?

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Patriots are ineffective, period

A massive boondoggle, with the Gulf War I as infomercial. They don't fucking work.

[INDIA]

33. "They don't fucking work"

Unless you're an engineer or rocket scientist with legitimate knowledge of the weapon, keep your opinion to yourself. I have no idea where you got your information, but it's wrong. Shooting down missiles and rockets is one of the most difficult and complicated ventures imaginable, just because they don't have a 100% success rate doesn't make them a "massive boondoggle."

http://science.howstuffworks.com/patriot-missile.htm


Considering they can only be used for defensive measures, I think they are a pretty cool piece of machinery.

[Solo_in_MD]

39. Key point is that it is an evolving technology

And it is getting better with each update. Perfection will never be achieved. Interceptions are all a percentages and numbers game. We have come a long way from Regan and the Star Wars rhetoric, and its a damn good thing we have.

It is amusing to see those who know nothing about military technology and tactics spew such definitive statements (on both sides). When I have the time I try to educate them, but mostly they want to protect their cherished delusions from the truth.

[Solo_in_MD]

38. Wrong scale

Patriots are for SCUDS and things of that size. The Katytusa and other rockets are literally too small for them to hit.

Read recently where Israel is using artillery radars to track launches. This will give them a good idea of where they are going and where they were launched from. This information *appears* to be driving some of their targeting.

[IndianaGreen]

26. The people of Haifa are not responsible for the bombing of Lebanon

anymore than the people of Beirut are responsible for Hezbollah's attack on the IDF patrol on the Lebanon-Israel border.

Bush didn't even have the common decency to even make the symbolic act of calling for a ceasefire and allowing the UN Security Council to pass a ceasefire resolution. By doing so, Bush has put all Americans on grave peril by signifying that America is an accomplice of Israel's aggression in Lebanon.

America is finished in the Middle East!

[Laotra]

30. "America is finished in the Middle East!"

Alas, not quite yet. But the Cedar Revolution of Lebanon and any good will towards Israel among the Lebanese people, that there was a great effort to build, is now certainly history.

From the blog SyriaComment:

"Olmert's re-occupation of Gaza, destruction of Hamas' infrastructure, and round up of Hamas government ministers and parliamentarians, who he had dragged before a military court bound hand and foot in chains, was a stunning display of Israeli strength. It enflamed Arab passions and opened the door for Hizbullah's coup.

Nasrallah, in carrying out his cool cross border operation, could act as if he was coming to the aid of the Palestinians, while really intending his fury for Siniora's ineffectual and paralyzed government. Like Olmert, Nasrallah is demonstrating to the world that Hariri and his men are nothing. They do not have an army, they cannot defend themselves. They cannot defend Lebanon. All their cozying up to the United States these last few years got them nothing. Washington will not stand by its new friends in Lebanon when Israeli bombs are falling. Nasrallah has dramatically and irrevocably underlined for the Arab World that the United States is not on the side of Arabs and not on the side of Lebanon. All Washington’s honeyed words about standing by Lebanon's side in its tough battle with Damascus, Hizbullah and terrorism were nothing but cotton candy. With a small summer rain, they melted away.

Nasrallah has been waiting for just such a moment to display the stunning new power Hizbullah has amassed with its longer range rockets and well trained militia. He has surprised Israelis and Arabs alike in his ability to cause pain.

For this reason, Saad Hariri's people have been unable to unequivocally condemn Hizbullah as a terror organization that has started this outburst and deserves the blame for Israel's destruction of Lebanon. Hariri is caught in Hizbullah's logic. Enough of Lebanon still thinks Arab, making it impossible to put the blame squarely on Hizbullah, which is posing as the Arab champion. Israel is refusing to fall for the old Lebanese line - "indulge me while I have an identity crisis for another decade." Olmert is cutting Hariri and Siniora no slack. If the government cannot rein in Hizbullah, Israel will have no patience for Hariri. Those who cannot rule will get no respect when the bullets start flying -- not from Israel, not from the US, and most importantly for Hariri and Siniora, not from the Lebanese."
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/syriablog/index.html

[INDIA]

34. I've heard quite the opposite

Although most anger is being directed to Israel by Arab states, (surprise surprise), many other more politically moderate Arab countries are showing a lack of support, and even a feeling of contempt toward Hezbollah. Lebanese people especially are upset that an entity other than their own government would provoke a war. Its almost like the Libertarians provoking a war with Iran that affects all Americans.

If anything, this might spell the beginning of the end of Hezbollah. IMO of course.

[AnOhioan]

36. Hopefully Hezbollah will cease to exist as an....

functioning unit. I fear for what will arise to fill the void though. Hezbollah was created when Israel invaded Lebanon to eliminate the PLO. Mission accomplished. Now they invade to destroy Hezbollah. Maybe they will accomplish the mission, and two or five years from now (if not sooner) a new danger will arise from the actions of today.

[megatherium]

42. Hezbollah didn't rise up as an example of spontaneous generation.

Iran set up Hezbollah.

[Laotra]

45. Not either or

Both

[jseankil]

43. Depends on how bad Israel causes the Lebanese to suffer

If your people are being killed and your daily life is in chaos then you likely would back those who are fighting against the group doing it.

[Laotra]

44. Like it or not

Hezbollah is the current champion of Arab nationalism, even though they are of the Shia pariah class, as they are the only force that has ever beaten Israel. As for the "moderate" pro-West dictatorships like Egypt, they have hard time controlling their own angry and frustrated populations and staying in power, especially if and when the conflict keeps escalating.

Like it or not, Hezbollah is not going anywhere, IDF can cause its military infrastructure considerable damage by invading north of border but not remove it (a well organized grass roots mass movement of lot more than million people), but politically it is growing stronger day by day as the anti-Syrian and pro-West forces currently holding power in Lebanon are cruelly betrayed by US and proven to be nobodies. Syria is gaining as it is the only player with realistic ability to broker cease fire. Hopefully that route is used ASAP.